18/03/2018

0:00:39 > 0:00:40Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:40 > 0:00:44I'm Sarah Smith. will provide your essential briefing

0:00:44 > 0:00:46on everything that's moving and shaking in the

0:00:46 > 0:00:49world of politics.

0:00:49 > 0:00:52The Foreign Secretary accuses Russia of "smug sarcasm, denial,

0:00:52 > 0:00:54obfuscation and delay" in relation to the Salisbury poisoning case.

0:00:54 > 0:00:59As the diplomatic dispute continues, where will this crisis go next?

0:00:59 > 0:01:02Police launch a murder inquiry in to the death

0:01:02 > 0:01:06of another Russian exile.

0:01:06 > 0:01:09We speak to the Chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:01:09 > 0:01:13Should transgender women be included on Labour's all-women short lists?

0:01:13 > 0:01:15The party postpones a final decision.

0:01:15 > 0:01:18While a government consultation on changing the law

0:01:18 > 0:01:19appears to be on hold.

0:01:19 > 0:01:26Has the debate on transgender rights become toxic?

0:01:26 > 0:01:32Also coming up: The ups and downs of two years as

0:01:32 > 0:01:35Welsh secretary, and market in your diaries. Another devolution landmark

0:01:35 > 0:01:41on the way.

0:01:44 > 0:01:49to make sense of all the big stories:

0:01:49 > 0:01:52Matt Zarb-Cousin, Isabel Oakeshott and

0:01:52 > 0:01:54Now, Russia's Vladimir Putin has already been out this

0:01:54 > 0:01:56morning to cast his vote in the Presidential elections.

0:01:56 > 0:01:58We'll be expecting the result in the Presidential elections.

0:01:58 > 0:02:01but you can probably guess who the frontrunner is.

0:02:01 > 0:02:04It comes at the end of a week in which UK-Russia relations turned

0:02:04 > 0:02:07positively sub-zero.

0:02:07 > 0:02:08President Putin.

0:02:08 > 0:02:11President Putin.

0:02:11 > 0:02:13Is Russia behind the poisoning of Sergei Skripal?

0:02:13 > 0:02:16This week the finger of blame for the Salisbury attack was

0:02:16 > 0:02:19pointed firmly in one direction.

0:02:20 > 0:02:21what actually happened

0:02:21 > 0:02:25there and then we'll talk about it.

0:02:25 > 0:02:28A deadline imposed by the British government

0:02:28 > 0:02:30calling on the Russians to provide answers came and went.

0:02:30 > 0:02:33The Prime Minister headed to the Commons to update MPs.

0:02:33 > 0:02:35They have treated the use of a military grade nerve agent

0:02:35 > 0:02:41in Europe with sarcasm, contempt and defiance.

0:02:43 > 0:02:48The only conclusion, she declared, was that the Russian state

0:02:48 > 0:02:51was responsible for the nerve agent attack on the Russian double agent

0:02:51 > 0:02:53Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia.

0:02:53 > 0:02:5623 Russian diplomats based here accused of being spies are to

0:02:56 > 0:02:58be kicked out of the country.

0:02:58 > 0:03:00Moscow responded by expelling 23 British

0:03:00 > 0:03:05embassy staff.

0:03:05 > 0:03:08UK-Russia relations are well and truly in the deep freeze.

0:03:08 > 0:03:10The Prime Minister's response to the crisis has

0:03:10 > 0:03:11won her some new fans.

0:03:11 > 0:03:13Hello.

0:03:13 > 0:03:16She got flowers and fist bumps in Salisbury on Thursday.

0:03:16 > 0:03:19The Defence Secretary had his own idiosyncratic message for Moscow.

0:03:19 > 0:03:23Frankly, Russia should go away, it should shut up.

0:03:23 > 0:03:26Go away, it should shut up.

0:03:26 > 0:03:30The Foreign Secretary escalated the row by going

0:03:30 > 0:03:33further and directly accusing Vladimir Putin of personally

0:03:33 > 0:03:34ordering the poisoning.

0:03:34 > 0:03:38Our quarrel is with Putin's Kremlin and with his

0:03:38 > 0:03:43decision, and we think it overwhelmingly likely that it was

0:03:43 > 0:03:46his decision, to direct the use of a nerve agent.

0:03:46 > 0:03:48Convention dictates that parties often come

0:03:48 > 0:03:51together on major foreign policy issues but Jeremy Corbyn is not a

0:03:51 > 0:03:55conventional politician.

0:03:55 > 0:03:57How has she responded to the Russian

0:03:57 > 0:04:01government's request for a sample of the agent used in the Salisbury

0:04:01 > 0:04:06attack to run its own tests?

0:04:06 > 0:04:08Shameful!

0:04:08 > 0:04:11That did not go down too well with some

0:04:11 > 0:04:14of his own MPs who tabled a motion expressing their support for the

0:04:14 > 0:04:15Prime Minister's response.

0:04:15 > 0:04:17But Mr Corbyn held his line, arguing in

0:04:17 > 0:04:19Friday's Guardian that we ought not to discount the possibility that

0:04:19 > 0:04:24Russian mafia gangs could have carried out the attack.

0:04:24 > 0:04:27Labour frontbenchers not exactly been

0:04:27 > 0:04:30toeing that line.

0:04:30 > 0:04:32We fully support the Government's action because we

0:04:32 > 0:04:33hold Russia responsible.

0:04:33 > 0:04:35There is no alternative explanation other than

0:04:35 > 0:04:38that responsibility lies with Russia.

0:04:38 > 0:04:41The US, France and Germany issued a joint statement of support

0:04:41 > 0:04:41for the UK.

0:04:41 > 0:04:44It's a very sad situation.

0:04:44 > 0:04:45It certainly looks like the Russians were behind it.

0:04:45 > 0:04:48Something that should never ever happen.

0:04:48 > 0:04:53Today is election day in Russia.

0:04:53 > 0:04:55And this crisis seems unlikely to hurt Putin's chances of

0:04:55 > 0:05:00re-election as Russia's President.

0:05:00 > 0:05:02So to pick up some of that news

0:05:02 > 0:05:03So to pick up some of that news

0:05:03 > 0:05:09Lucy, later this week the National Security Council will meet to talk

0:05:09 > 0:05:13about what further action the UK Government Meite, they briefed the

0:05:13 > 0:05:15about what further action the UK BBC there is more in the locker,

0:05:15 > 0:05:17that was the phrase the useful support any idea what they might do

0:05:17 > 0:05:20next?There is a whole suite of options available to the government,

0:05:20 > 0:05:24the idea of clamp-down on visas for dubious Russian businessmen and

0:05:24 > 0:05:26dubious Russian businessmen and their allies wanting to travel to

0:05:26 > 0:05:29the UK, there is talk on pulling the the UK, there is talk on pulling the

0:05:29 > 0:05:33plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed plug on RTE, the Kremlin backed

0:05:33 > 0:05:36broadcaster with Ruth Davidson calling for that they. The most

0:05:36 > 0:05:39important action the government could take is on the wealth, the

0:05:39 > 0:05:42Kremlin gold, and money

0:05:42 > 0:05:46could take is on the wealth, the around the UK invested here by

0:05:46 > 0:05:50Russian oligarchs are linked to the Kremlin.Boss of people from Russian

0:05:50 > 0:05:51politician stomach opposition

0:05:51 > 0:05:54Kremlin.Boss of people from Russian politicians who think would be the

0:05:54 > 0:06:00most effective route. That's what Labour are calling for and

0:06:00 > 0:06:01most effective route. That's what action the government will go in.

0:06:01 > 0:06:04These are quite short-term measures. These are quite short-term measures.

0:06:04 > 0:06:07What we're looking on with Russia is a much wider, long-term problem.

0:06:07 > 0:06:11What a lot of people

0:06:11 > 0:06:11a much wider, long-term problem. circles talk about is a more

0:06:11 > 0:06:14asymmetrical response,

0:06:14 > 0:06:16circles talk about is a more than in addition to the measures

0:06:16 > 0:06:17Lucy has articulated, you need to

0:06:17 > 0:06:20than in addition to the measures look at the whole suite of things in

0:06:20 > 0:06:23terms of the disinformation campaign that Russia puts out, we need to

0:06:23 > 0:06:27that Russia puts out, we need to look at where we can niggle

0:06:27 > 0:06:28that Russia puts out, we need to by supporting Ukraine a bit,

0:06:28 > 0:06:34supporting states like Azerbaijan and a much more hybrid response, I

0:06:34 > 0:06:35think.Matt Zarb-Cousin

0:06:35 > 0:06:38and a much more hybrid response, I has been a lot of discussion

0:06:38 > 0:06:38and a much more hybrid response, I Jeremy Corbyn's response to this

0:06:38 > 0:06:43this week. I'm interested, you know him well, give us an insight

0:06:43 > 0:06:45this week. I'm interested, you know what he is thinking. He supports the

0:06:45 > 0:06:49Government's actions while not being sure about the conclusion that the

0:06:49 > 0:06:53Russian state was responsible. Why support what

0:06:53 > 0:06:54Russian state was responsible. Why don't support the conclusion?I

0:06:54 > 0:06:55think the Russian

0:06:55 > 0:06:56don't support the conclusion?I and the Labour Party recognises

0:06:56 > 0:06:59and the Labour Party recognises that. I think we all agree that it

0:06:59 > 0:07:02isn't a proportionate response, it goes nowhere near far enough if the

0:07:02 > 0:07:06Russian state is culpable, to just expel 23 diplomats and say to the

0:07:06 > 0:07:09Royal family they are not going to Royal family they are not going to

0:07:09 > 0:07:12the World Cup. So they have to find out obviously if the Russian state

0:07:12 > 0:07:15is culpable, and then once they have is culpable, and then once they have

0:07:15 > 0:07:18the evidence for that then obviously build that international coalition

0:07:18 > 0:07:20where we can actually take where we can actually take

0:07:20 > 0:07:22meaningful action, not these meaningful action, not these

0:07:22 > 0:07:25tokenistic measures. Even closing

0:07:25 > 0:07:26meaningful action, not these down Russia's Russia Today emboldens

0:07:26 > 0:07:32Putin, look at the West, they can censor, he will say. What we really

0:07:32 > 0:07:36Putin, look at the West, they can have to do is go after Putin's kind

0:07:36 > 0:07:40of circle. There is oligarchs here, whether they are pro-or anti-Putin,

0:07:40 > 0:07:45who have been allowed to settle here and stow away their

0:07:45 > 0:07:46who have been allowed to settle here they have been affected by Putin. If

0:07:46 > 0:07:49they are then affected by

0:07:49 > 0:07:51they have been affected by Putin. If we say you have to leave, then that

0:07:51 > 0:07:54is a very powerful coalition you

0:07:54 > 0:07:55we say you have to leave, then that building against him.But Jeremy

0:07:55 > 0:07:58Corbyn still isn't convinced that the Russian state itself is

0:07:58 > 0:08:04responsible.No, neither is the government.He wouldn't back these

0:08:04 > 0:08:06responsible.No, neither is the actions until they were proved.It

0:08:06 > 0:08:10would be naive, it would

0:08:10 > 0:08:10actions until they were proved.It difficult to build an international

0:08:10 > 0:08:15coalition. Even the statement that Germany France and the US

0:08:15 > 0:08:15coalition. Even the statement that the joint statement, said the nerve

0:08:15 > 0:08:18the joint statement, said the nerve agent was of a type developed by

0:08:18 > 0:08:20the joint statement, said the nerve Russia, not that it was developed by

0:08:20 > 0:08:23Russia. It looks increasingly likely

0:08:23 > 0:08:24Russia, not that it was developed by that that nerve agent came

0:08:24 > 0:08:25Russia, not that it was developed by Russia and Russia have lost control

0:08:25 > 0:08:27of it, or have used it maliciously,

0:08:27 > 0:08:29Russia and Russia have lost control but we don't know that yet and it's

0:08:29 > 0:08:31very difficult to take action until very difficult to take action until

0:08:31 > 0:08:37we do.There is a kind of false dichotomy here in

0:08:37 > 0:08:37we do.There is a kind of false somehow elements of Russian Mafia

0:08:37 > 0:08:39might be responsible. Welcome

0:08:39 > 0:08:41somehow elements of Russian Mafia potentially they could be, but the

0:08:41 > 0:08:43somehow elements of Russian Mafia idea that the Russian Mafia

0:08:43 > 0:08:45some way completely distinct from idea that the Russian Mafia

0:08:45 > 0:08:47some way completely distinct from the Kremlin is a misunderstanding.

0:08:47 > 0:08:48some way completely distinct from In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in

0:08:48 > 0:08:52extra typically linked to

0:08:52 > 0:08:53In a sense, the Russian Mafia is in Kremlin. They are a sort of

0:08:53 > 0:08:55Kremlin. They are a sort of paramilitary wing of the Kremlin so

0:08:55 > 0:08:58it is a false dichotomy.Lucy, it is a false dichotomy.Lucy,

0:08:58 > 0:09:00Jeremy Corbyn has taken a lot

0:09:00 > 0:09:01it is a false dichotomy.Lucy, flak for his response this week.

0:09:01 > 0:09:03it is a false dichotomy.Lucy, Isn't it legitimate to be asking

0:09:03 > 0:09:07these questions when, as Matt says, even the French, US and German

0:09:07 > 0:09:13governments don't seem this -- convinced this is state directed?

0:09:13 > 0:09:16convinced this is state directed? Early in the week we saw some level

0:09:16 > 0:09:18of prevarication by Paris, Berlin of prevarication by Paris, Berlin

0:09:18 > 0:09:21and Washington and that has firmed up a lot. I think the quite

0:09:21 > 0:09:24unprecedented international joint statement put out by those allies

0:09:24 > 0:09:27and the UK goes a lot further than

0:09:27 > 0:09:30statement put out by those allies you say, Matt. I don't think it's as

0:09:30 > 0:09:32equivocal as perhaps

0:09:32 > 0:09:34you say, Matt. I don't think it's as Some of the

0:09:34 > 0:09:36you say, Matt. I don't think it's as asks will kind of strike a chord

0:09:36 > 0:09:42with much of the public. I think, in particular, raising questions about

0:09:42 > 0:09:44the intelligence and exactly what is known is something that

0:09:44 > 0:09:47the intelligence and exactly what is be thinking about in light of the

0:09:47 > 0:09:522003 Iraq War and some of the evidence being politically sexed up,

0:09:52 > 0:09:56people want to know that that's not people want to know that that's not

0:09:56 > 0:10:00the case here.Briefly.We don't know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn

0:10:00 > 0:10:03had access to in terms of

0:10:03 > 0:10:05know exactly how much Jeremy Corbyn be that the government... Boris

0:10:05 > 0:10:08Johnson and the Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson have gone much

0:10:08 > 0:10:09Gavin Williamson have gone much

0:10:09 > 0:10:11further and said... Boris Johnson said it is Putin.Overwhelmingly

0:10:11 > 0:10:15likely.Williamson said they should

0:10:15 > 0:10:17said it is Putin.Overwhelmingly shut up and go away, or whatever he

0:10:17 > 0:10:20said. That suggests to me they are either going off message or they

0:10:20 > 0:10:23either going off message or they have seen more evidence that perhaps

0:10:23 > 0:10:25either going off message or they Corbyn has not seen.These are

0:10:25 > 0:10:25either going off message or they questions we will explore throughout

0:10:25 > 0:10:27the show and if you stay with

0:10:27 > 0:10:29questions we will explore throughout will talk to you throughout the

0:10:29 > 0:10:30programme.

0:10:30 > 0:10:33Well, let's stick with this story because the Foreign Secretary has

0:10:33 > 0:10:35been speaking on the Andrew Marr Show this morning.

0:10:35 > 0:10:38He was asked how the Government could be certain that the Russian

0:10:38 > 0:10:39Government was responsible for the attack.

0:10:39 > 0:10:46We actually have evidence within the last ten years that

0:10:46 > 0:10:46We actually have evidence within the only been investigating the delivery

0:10:46 > 0:10:53of nerve agents for the purposes of assassination, but has also been

0:10:53 > 0:10:55creating and stockpiling Novichok. To the best of our knowledge, this

0:10:55 > 0:11:01is a Russian-made nerve agent that falls within the category Novichok,

0:11:01 > 0:11:04made only by Russia.

0:11:04 > 0:11:08I'm joined now by the Foreign Office Minister Sir Alan Duncan.

0:11:08 > 0:11:12Thank you for talking to us this morning. Russia have responded, as

0:11:12 > 0:11:20you know, to our expansion -- expulsion of 23 Russian diplomats by

0:11:20 > 0:11:24closing the consulate in St Petersburg. Is there a second phase

0:11:24 > 0:11:26of government action that

0:11:26 > 0:11:27Petersburg. Is there a second phase to be reintroduced in order to take

0:11:27 > 0:11:31Petersburg. Is there a second phase this further?We have lots of

0:11:31 > 0:11:38options. But this isn't just about counting heads. This is really about

0:11:38 > 0:11:40options. But this isn't just about making clear to the world

0:11:40 > 0:11:41options. But this isn't just about of the great achievements of the

0:11:41 > 0:11:44world since the Second World

0:11:44 > 0:11:45of the great achievements of the which is a convention to ban

0:11:45 > 0:11:47which is a convention to ban chemical weapons, has been

0:11:47 > 0:11:52which is a convention to ban And it is clearly traceable back to

0:11:52 > 0:11:56a military grade nerve agent of Russian origin. We said

0:11:56 > 0:11:58a military grade nerve agent of Russians either you did it directly

0:11:58 > 0:12:00or you have lost control of this,

0:12:00 > 0:12:01Russians either you did it directly tell us which. They basically just

0:12:01 > 0:12:04tell us which. They basically just

0:12:04 > 0:12:07stuck their tongue out at us. Their irresponsible response to this

0:12:07 > 0:12:11points ever more to them as having done this, and so the response that

0:12:11 > 0:12:14we have done I think is

0:12:14 > 0:12:15done this, and so the response that proportionate. Yes, they

0:12:15 > 0:12:18done this, and so the response that responded back. But what

0:12:18 > 0:12:18done this, and so the response that more than anything else is not that

0:12:18 > 0:12:21we now go into some kind of tit-for-tat stuff by accounting

0:12:21 > 0:12:26exact numbers and things like that, is that we actually corral the whole

0:12:26 > 0:12:27world to realise that Russia

0:12:27 > 0:12:30is that we actually corral the whole totally out of order here and that

0:12:30 > 0:12:34the Chemical Weapons Convention has been violated in a way that could do

0:12:34 > 0:12:36enormous damage to the world in any enormous damage to the world in any

0:12:36 > 0:12:39country this happens to happen in, country this happens to happen in,

0:12:39 > 0:12:41in this case the UK, and that

0:12:41 > 0:12:42country this happens to happen in, what we will do.You are calling for

0:12:42 > 0:12:45what we will do.You are calling for a concerted international action,

0:12:45 > 0:12:50what would that look like?We are already very grateful to the very

0:12:50 > 0:12:55clear response we have had from a lot of countries. I

0:12:55 > 0:12:56clear response we have had from a Balkans over the weekend with

0:12:56 > 0:12:59Balkans over the weekend with countries like Macedonia and Kosovo,

0:12:59 > 0:13:01and they were very, very clear in

0:13:01 > 0:13:02countries like Macedonia and Kosovo, their condemnation of this, because

0:13:02 > 0:13:06they themselves are countries which suffer from wider Russian

0:13:06 > 0:13:12interference. But we have the EU foreign ministers meeting tomorrow,

0:13:12 > 0:13:12interference. But we have the EU they will be a Prime Minister level

0:13:12 > 0:13:16March European Council on Friday, we have already had an open discussion

0:13:16 > 0:13:19have already had an open discussion in the UN at which the Russian

0:13:19 > 0:13:22representative cut a very, very lonely figure, and this is clearly a

0:13:22 > 0:13:23representative cut a very, very Russian violation of the Chemical

0:13:23 > 0:13:29Weapons Convention and we will cooperate with the Organisation for

0:13:29 > 0:13:31the Prohibition of Chemical

0:13:31 > 0:13:33cooperate with the Organisation for to prove even further what we

0:13:33 > 0:13:35cooperate with the Organisation for to be the case.When it comes to

0:13:35 > 0:13:37international action, a former UK

0:13:37 > 0:13:38to be the case.When it comes to ambassador to Russia, agrees with

0:13:38 > 0:13:40to be the case.When it comes to you that we need to take action

0:13:40 > 0:13:45along with others and says the sanctions imposed by the EU after

0:13:45 > 0:13:48Crimea 2014 surprise

0:13:48 > 0:13:49sanctions imposed by the EU after continue to have an impact because

0:13:49 > 0:13:51they were EU wide, but went on to

0:13:51 > 0:13:54continue to have an impact because say Brexit has made Britain's task

0:13:54 > 0:13:57harder in appealing for EU

0:13:57 > 0:13:57say Brexit has made Britain's task solidarity this week and the kind of

0:13:57 > 0:14:00international action you are looking

0:14:00 > 0:14:02solidarity this week and the kind of for.I think that is total nonsense,

0:14:02 > 0:14:06for.I think that is total nonsense, Brexit doesn't have an impact on

0:14:06 > 0:14:10this and we are still part of the EU

0:14:10 > 0:14:12and we operate EU sanctions collaboratively and we're passing

0:14:12 > 0:14:12collaboratively and we're

0:14:12 > 0:14:15legislation through the House of Commons which will give us

0:14:15 > 0:14:18autonomous actions regime following the departure from the EU, and we

0:14:18 > 0:14:25will include in that what I hope will be a firm

0:14:25 > 0:14:26will include in that what I hope statement from the House of Commons

0:14:26 > 0:14:30that the Magnitsky clause, as people have been campaigning for, will be

0:14:30 > 0:14:34included in the sanctions and anti-money-laundering Bill. And the

0:14:34 > 0:14:41passage of this bill predated the Salisbury incident, has always been

0:14:41 > 0:14:44something we wanted the whole of the

0:14:44 > 0:14:45Salisbury incident, has always been House of Commons today,

0:14:45 > 0:14:45Salisbury incident, has always been something in a committee during

0:14:45 > 0:14:51passage of the bill.Labour tried to introduce an amendment to that

0:14:51 > 0:14:51passage of the bill.Labour tried to with the Magnitsky clause and you

0:14:51 > 0:14:54wear minister in the Bill committee that rejected those amendments two

0:14:54 > 0:15:01weeks ago. -- you wear minister.I answer the question before you ask

0:15:01 > 0:15:04the question, which is we wanted it to be done on the whole floor of the

0:15:04 > 0:15:09house and in the phrasing of the amendment it wasn't consistent with

0:15:09 > 0:15:12some of the other parts

0:15:12 > 0:15:14amendment it wasn't consistent with -- you were a minister. We have an

0:15:14 > 0:15:15amendment it wasn't consistent with understanding that we hope will be a

0:15:15 > 0:15:18cross-party

0:15:18 > 0:15:18understanding that we hope will be a a clear message to the world that

0:15:18 > 0:15:19understanding that we hope will be a the House of Commons, along with

0:15:19 > 0:15:24countries who have done it already, will be aligned with the Magnitsky

0:15:24 > 0:15:30proposal, which campaigners

0:15:30 > 0:15:36The Magnitsky powers would allow you to take actions against individuals

0:15:36 > 0:15:39guilty of gross human rights

0:15:39 > 0:15:40to take actions against individuals violations. That doesn't allow you

0:15:40 > 0:15:45to attack the money of Putin allies to attack the money of Putin allies

0:15:45 > 0:15:47unless you can find them guilty of

0:15:47 > 0:15:49to attack the money of Putin allies gross human rights violations so it

0:15:49 > 0:15:52to attack the money of Putin allies wouldn't really allow you

0:15:52 > 0:15:53to attack the money of Putin allies to this attack, would it?Again, I'm

0:15:53 > 0:15:57afraid you're totally wrong and don't understand the wording of

0:15:57 > 0:15:59afraid you're totally wrong and bill because it is not only

0:15:59 > 0:16:01afraid you're totally wrong and human rights violations in the bill.

0:16:01 > 0:16:02afraid you're totally wrong and There are many purposes included

0:16:02 > 0:16:04afraid you're totally wrong and the list of things you can do under

0:16:04 > 0:16:06the list of things you can do under the legislation and it does include

0:16:06 > 0:16:10what you have just described.But the powers the Government has

0:16:10 > 0:16:12what you have just described.But already on going after things like

0:16:12 > 0:16:15this, like unexplained wealth orders, have been used only once

0:16:15 > 0:16:18this, like unexplained wealth since they were introduced. There

0:16:18 > 0:16:23haven't been much evidence the Government was serious

0:16:23 > 0:16:25haven't been much evidence the corrupt money brought in through

0:16:25 > 0:16:27London.That's

0:16:27 > 0:16:27corrupt money brought in through legislation has only recently come

0:16:27 > 0:16:29in and of course it's not

0:16:29 > 0:16:31legislation has only recently come politicians who

0:16:31 > 0:16:32legislation has only recently come decisions. There's a distinction

0:16:32 > 0:16:38between the liberal democracy in which we live, where judges on

0:16:38 > 0:16:38between the liberal democracy in law take their course from

0:16:38 > 0:16:42law take their course from politicians. And what we think is

0:16:42 > 0:16:44law take their course from happening in Russia, which is not a

0:16:44 > 0:16:47law take their course from real democracy, we are looking at a

0:16:47 > 0:16:50pretty odd election taking place pretty odd election taking place

0:16:50 > 0:16:52today where Vladimir Putin

0:16:52 > 0:16:52pretty odd election taking place undoubtedly be supposedly re-elected

0:16:52 > 0:16:59for the fourth time. That is a deep distinction between our values and

0:16:59 > 0:17:02bears. One of the great values we have seen in the world is the

0:17:02 > 0:17:07creation of the chemical weapons Convention. Jeremy Corbyn has always

0:17:07 > 0:17:12been the great disarm and here we have a violation of the ideological,

0:17:12 > 0:17:14have a violation of the ideological, the sort of principled convention

0:17:14 > 0:17:18that has been built up over many decades, violated in our

0:17:18 > 0:17:20that has been built up over many country, which is why I think many

0:17:20 > 0:17:25country, which is why I think many young people are disappointed with

0:17:25 > 0:17:26his response.Ben Wallace,

0:17:26 > 0:17:27young people are disappointed with security minister,

0:17:27 > 0:17:30young people are disappointed with allowed nasty individuals to come to

0:17:30 > 0:17:32the City of London and launder

0:17:32 > 0:17:34allowed nasty individuals to come to illicit money. That sounds like an

0:17:34 > 0:17:36allowed nasty individuals to come to admission that until now

0:17:36 > 0:17:37allowed nasty individuals to come to Government hasn't been doing

0:17:37 > 0:17:41allowed nasty individuals to come to to tackle corrupt money in London.I

0:17:41 > 0:17:42allowed nasty individuals to come to think we are amassing the powers to

0:17:42 > 0:17:48tackle exactly the kind of issue he has identified, and indeed Ben

0:17:48 > 0:17:50Wallace is the security

0:17:50 > 0:17:52has identified, and indeed Ben has been supporting this, pressing

0:17:52 > 0:17:55has been supporting this, pressing for it and administering it from the

0:17:55 > 0:17:58Home Office point of view. We

0:17:58 > 0:17:59for it and administering it from the to make a proper distinction though

0:17:59 > 0:18:01to make a proper distinction though without compromising

0:18:01 > 0:18:03to make a proper distinction though between those who are guilty and

0:18:03 > 0:18:05to make a proper distinction though those who are not. Not every

0:18:05 > 0:18:11oligarch is guilty and not every rich Russian is necessarily a crony

0:18:11 > 0:18:14of Putin and someone who

0:18:14 > 0:18:15rich Russian is necessarily a crony subject to sanctions so we need to

0:18:15 > 0:18:19approach this without compromising our values. But there is something

0:18:19 > 0:18:21our values. But there is something much more important than this, what

0:18:21 > 0:18:24really matters is the world needs to

0:18:24 > 0:18:25much more important than this, what realise that if we allow chemical

0:18:25 > 0:18:29weapons to slip into use any more that's happened now, we will live in

0:18:29 > 0:18:32weapons to slip into use any more a much more dangerous world and one

0:18:32 > 0:18:36weapons to slip into use any more which is tearing up the rule

0:18:36 > 0:18:36weapons to slip into use any more throwing away the chemical weapons

0:18:36 > 0:18:41Convention which has been in place for so many decades, indeed it

0:18:41 > 0:18:43Convention which has been in place one of the

0:18:43 > 0:18:44Convention which has been in place achievements of the post war world

0:18:44 > 0:18:47achievements of the post war world that we put this in place so we have

0:18:47 > 0:18:55to the robust in pointing the finger at Russia and

0:18:55 > 0:18:57to the robust in pointing the finger by the use of chemical weapons is

0:18:57 > 0:19:00by the use of chemical weapons is simply not acceptable.Thank you for

0:19:00 > 0:19:02Well, earlier this week the police announced that they were launching

0:19:02 > 0:19:04a murder inquiry in to the death of another Russian businessman

0:19:04 > 0:19:05living in Britain.

0:19:05 > 0:19:07A pathologist's report says Nikolai Glushkov died

0:19:07 > 0:19:10of "compression to the neck" after being found dead

0:19:10 > 0:19:10at his home on Monday.

0:19:10 > 0:19:13The Metropolitan Police say there is no evidence to suggest

0:19:13 > 0:19:15a link to the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal.

0:19:15 > 0:19:18But the Home Office has announced it will investigate a number

0:19:18 > 0:19:20of other unexplained deaths following the Skripal case.

0:19:20 > 0:19:26Yvette Cooper is the Chair of The Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:19:29 > 0:19:33You specifically asked the Home Secretary to investigate 14 other

0:19:33 > 0:19:36deaths that you are worried may have

0:19:36 > 0:19:38Secretary to investigate 14 other had Russian involvement, do you have

0:19:38 > 0:19:43much evidence for that?My concern is that any area where there are

0:19:43 > 0:19:47much evidence for that?My concern allegations that there may have been

0:19:47 > 0:19:50either Russian involvement or suspicious circumstances that may

0:19:50 > 0:19:52either Russian involvement or need to be investigated should be,

0:19:52 > 0:19:54either Russian involvement or because I think we have to

0:19:54 > 0:19:55either Russian involvement or full facts. There was a BuzzFeed

0:19:55 > 0:20:01investigation that made allegations about 14 cases, there are other

0:20:01 > 0:20:03investigation that made allegations concerns raised about others.

0:20:03 > 0:20:05investigation that made allegations not for me to judge the individual

0:20:05 > 0:20:11circumstances, my concern is these cases, where there have been

0:20:11 > 0:20:12circumstances, my concern is these preliminary conclusions of suicide

0:20:12 > 0:20:17or natural causes or accident, that actually there may be further

0:20:17 > 0:20:21evidence of more suspicious circumstances, they should now be

0:20:21 > 0:20:23reviewed by the Home

0:20:23 > 0:20:24circumstances, they should now be police.The Home Office have said

0:20:24 > 0:20:32they will do that but if you look at the the case of someone who died in

0:20:32 > 0:20:382012, Surrey police says they will not reinvestigate so will they be

0:20:38 > 0:20:392012, Surrey police says they will able to cover new evidence?I assume

0:20:39 > 0:20:43able to cover new evidence?I assume the Home Office will assure there is

0:20:43 > 0:20:44able to cover new evidence?I assume a review of all of these cases. The

0:20:44 > 0:20:46Home Office Secretary will want to

0:20:46 > 0:20:48a review of all of these cases. The satisfy herself that every corner

0:20:48 > 0:20:50has been looked into and

0:20:50 > 0:20:53satisfy herself that every corner been done properly and we get to the

0:20:53 > 0:20:55satisfy herself that every corner bottom of this. I do accept the

0:20:55 > 0:20:57priority for them at

0:20:57 > 0:21:00bottom of this. I do accept the be this current investigation and

0:21:00 > 0:21:00bottom of this. I do accept the the current circumstances in

0:21:00 > 0:21:05Salisbury and where those investigations lead, but they will

0:21:05 > 0:21:08need I think to follow up by

0:21:08 > 0:21:10investigations lead, but they will at these other cases as well.So you

0:21:10 > 0:21:13have any doubt that

0:21:13 > 0:21:15at these other cases as well.So you Salisbury was directed by the

0:21:15 > 0:21:19Russian state?I share the conclusions

0:21:19 > 0:21:22Russian state?I share the and British government that it is

0:21:22 > 0:21:25implausible the Russian state wasn't

0:21:25 > 0:21:27and British government that it is Jeremy Corbyn is wrong when he says

0:21:27 > 0:21:34it is either the Russian state or a chemical weapon that got

0:21:34 > 0:21:35it is either the Russian state or a control and into other people's

0:21:35 > 0:21:37it is either the Russian state or a hands?We don't

0:21:37 > 0:21:38it is either the Russian state or a individuals caused the attack and

0:21:38 > 0:21:41how the nerve agent was

0:21:41 > 0:21:42individuals caused the attack and the country, we also don't know

0:21:42 > 0:21:46the country, we also don't know which bit of the Russian state was

0:21:46 > 0:21:47particularly involved, but I

0:21:47 > 0:21:49which bit of the Russian state was the clear evidence, the way in which

0:21:49 > 0:21:55the Russian government has been behaving since this happened really

0:21:55 > 0:21:57is not the behaviour of a government

0:21:57 > 0:21:59behaving since this happened really that is saying we weren't involved

0:21:59 > 0:22:03and we want to help get to the bottom of this because we take it

0:22:03 > 0:22:12seriously. This morning the Russian Embassy has been tweeting

0:22:14 > 0:22:21Embassy has been tweeting pictures of Hercule Poirot.So are you

0:22:21 > 0:22:25embarrassed by Jeremy Corbyn saying there isn't enough evidence to link

0:22:25 > 0:22:28this to the Kremlin?This morning this to the Kremlin?This morning

0:22:28 > 0:22:31John McDonnell said we should condemn the Russian government for

0:22:31 > 0:22:34the way it's behaved on this, and the way it's behaved on this, and

0:22:34 > 0:22:37that the Russian government is responsible, and I agreed with him,

0:22:37 > 0:22:40and he went further than Theresa

0:22:40 > 0:22:44responsible, and I agreed with him, by pointing the finger at Putin,

0:22:44 > 0:22:46something similar to what Boris something similar to what Boris

0:22:46 > 0:22:51Johnson has said, so I think there's a recognition that even though

0:22:51 > 0:22:52Johnson has said, so I think there's don't know which individual

0:22:52 > 0:22:54Johnson has said, so I think there's delivered the nerve agent there is

0:22:54 > 0:22:57responsibility here in the Russian

0:22:57 > 0:22:59delivered the nerve agent there is state and I think some part of the

0:22:59 > 0:23:03security service is what we expect as well.It was clear in the House

0:23:03 > 0:23:08of Commons this week there were senior Labour MPs like yourself

0:23:08 > 0:23:13uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's position. There's also been reports

0:23:13 > 0:23:16uncomfortable with Jeremy Corbyn's this has been seen as a watershed

0:23:16 > 0:23:20moment by some moderate Labour MPs wondering what they are doing in

0:23:20 > 0:23:24Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party and revived talk of a breakaway party,

0:23:24 > 0:23:32is that something you have heard about?I think this is a load of

0:23:32 > 0:23:35rubbish. I have not heard this so I rubbish. I have not heard this so I

0:23:35 > 0:23:42think this is in danger of spiralling ever outwards and we are

0:23:42 > 0:23:44also in danger of making this an issue about domestic politics at a

0:23:44 > 0:23:46also in danger of making this an time when there is very

0:23:46 > 0:23:47also in danger of making this an international issues here that we

0:23:47 > 0:23:49international issues here that we should be focusing on and coming

0:23:49 > 0:23:51together to focus on as well.That's

0:23:51 > 0:23:53should be focusing on and coming why it becomes a domestic issue

0:23:53 > 0:23:54why it becomes a domestic issue because it's at times like this you

0:23:54 > 0:24:00might expect the leader of

0:24:00 > 0:24:01because it's at times like this you opposition to back-up the Prime

0:24:01 > 0:24:03Minister, you were clearly uncomfortable with the way

0:24:03 > 0:24:05Minister, you were clearly not do that, so it has consequences

0:24:05 > 0:24:06Minister, you were clearly within the Labour Party.As I

0:24:06 > 0:24:09within the Labour Party.As I understand it, Jeremy has said that

0:24:09 > 0:24:14the evidence points to wash, that also he supports all of the measures

0:24:14 > 0:24:19the evidence points to wash, that and that's really

0:24:20 > 0:24:20and that's really important that you have unanimity about the actions

0:24:20 > 0:24:23that need

0:24:23 > 0:24:25have unanimity about the actions for further action around the

0:24:25 > 0:24:27economic sanctions. They understand

0:24:27 > 0:24:28for further action around the he wanted to wait for further

0:24:28 > 0:24:33evidence before going further and criticising the Russian government.

0:24:33 > 0:24:37Obviously John McDonnell has

0:24:37 > 0:24:37criticising the Russian government. criticised the Russian government

0:24:37 > 0:24:41today, but I'm not going to criticise Jeremy for taking

0:24:41 > 0:24:42today, but I'm not going to slightly different view

0:24:42 > 0:24:44today, but I'm not going to think there's been too much

0:24:44 > 0:24:47temperature in this and you have heard people being called warmongers

0:24:47 > 0:24:52for condemning the Russian state, you've also heard people being

0:24:52 > 0:25:00called appeasers for asking further questions.

0:25:02 > 0:25:05questions. None of that helps. We are not talking about military

0:25:05 > 0:25:08action, we are talking about

0:25:08 > 0:25:09are not talking about military I hope there can be unanimity about

0:25:09 > 0:25:11what

0:25:11 > 0:25:14Yvonne Cooper, thank you. I will just pick up some of that with the

0:25:14 > 0:25:19panel. Lucy Fisher, it was clear listening to Yvette Cooper, and

0:25:19 > 0:25:24Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the Labour Party people who seemed to

0:25:24 > 0:25:24Shami Chakrabarti, very much in the at odds at the beginning of the week

0:25:24 > 0:25:26at odds at the beginning of the week as saying there is nothing to see

0:25:26 > 0:25:32here, is that true?I'm not entirely

0:25:32 > 0:25:34as saying there is nothing to see convinced, I think this has opened

0:25:34 > 0:25:36as saying there is nothing to see up old wounds in the Labour Party,

0:25:36 > 0:25:40the front bench has been strained by this response, and while we were

0:25:40 > 0:25:43the front bench has been strained by talking about how some of

0:25:43 > 0:25:44the front bench has been strained by questions he has asked are valid,

0:25:44 > 0:25:46tonally I think the response has

0:25:46 > 0:25:50questions he has asked are valid, upset a lot of Labour MPs, including

0:25:50 > 0:25:53those who have called for the Commons to unequivocally condemn the

0:25:53 > 0:26:08Russian state.Matt Zarb Cousin, Labour has been

0:26:08 > 0:26:10Labour has been calling for -- the

0:26:10 > 0:26:15Government have been calling for Magnitsky clauses, exactly what

0:26:15 > 0:26:15Government have been calling for Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you

0:26:15 > 0:26:20Jeremy Corbyn called forth. Were you satisfied with what you heard from

0:26:20 > 0:26:23from Alan Duncan?No, they are watered down compared to what Jeremy

0:26:23 > 0:26:28Corbyn had in the manifesto in

0:26:28 > 0:26:28watered down compared to what Jeremy last election. I think there is an

0:26:28 > 0:26:31agreement among the Labour Party now

0:26:31 > 0:26:33last election. I think there is an and the front bench particularly

0:26:33 > 0:26:34last election. I think there is an that the Russian state is culpable

0:26:34 > 0:26:36last election. I think there is an and that is shared across the house.

0:26:36 > 0:26:42You are still couple books under the chemicals weapons Convention if

0:26:42 > 0:26:45You are still couple books under the lose control of the nerve agent,

0:26:45 > 0:26:48which is what

0:26:48 > 0:26:50lose control of the nerve agent, Conservative government is serious

0:26:50 > 0:26:52lose control of the nerve agent, about financial powers in order to

0:26:52 > 0:26:53lose control of the nerve agent, target corrupt money? David Cameron

0:26:53 > 0:26:57said one of his great regrets is that he never introduced me

0:26:57 > 0:27:02Magnitsky powers, the Government say they will go ahead with it, is it

0:27:02 > 0:27:08powers they will use in a meaningful way?I think they are absolutely

0:27:08 > 0:27:09way?I think they are absolutely serious. The national security

0:27:09 > 0:27:14adviser said he understands this, as does the intelligence minister Ben

0:27:14 > 0:27:19Wallace, they have already used these new powers about freezing the

0:27:19 > 0:27:25assets on unexplained wealth. A fairly new measure which has already

0:27:25 > 0:27:30been implemented in at least one case as I understand it. I want to

0:27:30 > 0:27:31come back on your comments, you

0:27:31 > 0:27:34case as I understand it. I want to the Labour Party is singing as one,

0:27:34 > 0:27:37I don't pick that

0:27:37 > 0:27:40the Labour Party is singing as one, rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was

0:27:40 > 0:27:41extraordinarily diplomatic, but

0:27:41 > 0:27:44rhetoric. I felt Yvette Cooper was trying to paper over serious cracks

0:27:44 > 0:27:49within the Parliamentary party about Labour's position on this. It is

0:27:49 > 0:27:53clear Jeremy Corbyn doubts the intelligence on it.It is not the

0:27:53 > 0:27:55intelligence he doubts, it is

0:27:55 > 0:27:57intelligence on it.It is not the way the intelligence has been

0:27:57 > 0:28:00interpreted by

0:28:00 > 0:28:00way the intelligence has been I'm talking about intelligence he

0:28:00 > 0:28:06perhaps hasn't seen so we don't know

0:28:06 > 0:28:08how much he has seen. Theresa May, as Lucy's story showed this week,

0:28:08 > 0:28:11hasn't necessarily shown the Leader

0:28:11 > 0:28:12as Lucy's story showed this week, of the Opposition and chief of staff

0:28:12 > 0:28:17everything. It is the same as Iraq in a sense. It is not the

0:28:17 > 0:28:20everything. It is the same as Iraq intelligence itself necessarily, it

0:28:20 > 0:28:20everything. It is the same as Iraq is how the Government uses the

0:28:20 > 0:28:24intelligence, and that's when it comes back to the nerve agent being

0:28:24 > 0:28:29intelligence, and that's when it of a type developed by Russia.

0:28:29 > 0:28:31OK, talking of cracks in the Labour OK, talking of cracks in the Labour

0:28:31 > 0:28:34Party we have another

0:28:34 > 0:28:36On Tuesday the Labour Party were expected to rubber

0:28:36 > 0:28:39stamp their support for transgender women to be included

0:28:39 > 0:28:40on all-women short lists.

0:28:40 > 0:28:42But this programme has learned that that announcement has been delayed

0:28:42 > 0:28:44so that arguments on all sides can be heard.

0:28:44 > 0:28:47The rights of the transgender community have also become part

0:28:47 > 0:28:49of a wider conversation in Westminster after the government

0:28:49 > 0:28:51backed calls to simplify the legal process to for someone

0:28:51 > 0:28:52to change their gender.

0:28:52 > 0:28:55Greg Dawson reports.

0:28:57 > 0:28:59This is Heather Peto.

0:28:59 > 0:29:03I've always known I'm a woman, it's when I became a teenager that

0:29:03 > 0:29:06I really sort of like felt the pressure to be who I was.

0:29:06 > 0:29:11And, at the next general election, she wants to make political history.

0:29:11 > 0:29:15I'd like to be one of the first she wants to make political history.

0:29:15 > 0:29:17But that ambition has propelled her and others

0:29:17 > 0:29:20to the centre of a significant row in the Labour Party

0:29:20 > 0:29:23after she was included on an all women's short list

0:29:23 > 0:29:29as a Parliamentary candidate.

0:29:29 > 0:29:30I don't think it's an

0:29:30 > 0:29:35I don't think it's an issue to be honest. I think the local party

0:29:35 > 0:29:39decides and the best candidates will get through so I don't think

0:29:39 > 0:29:43decides and the best candidates will an issue. I think it's being made

0:29:43 > 0:29:44decides and the best candidates will issue by some people that are more

0:29:44 > 0:29:45anti-transgender, but local people

0:29:45 > 0:29:50issue by some people that are more don't seem

0:29:50 > 0:29:51onto all women's short lists but that policy has recently

0:29:51 > 0:29:55come under attack. feminists who descended

0:29:55 > 0:29:58on Parliament this week for a meeting they titled

0:29:58 > 0:30:04"transgender and the war on women".

0:30:05 > 0:30:08They've been described as transphobic, a label they reject.

0:30:08 > 0:30:10I can see already there are trans-identifying

0:30:10 > 0:30:13men cynically use - what I feel - are cynically

0:30:13 > 0:30:18using those positions.

0:30:18 > 0:30:20You've got Heather Peto who is the trans-inclusionary officer

0:30:20 > 0:30:23of the Labour Party, he went on to an all

0:30:23 > 0:30:24women's short list.

0:30:24 > 0:30:27The fact that you are referencing Heather as 'he' against her wishes

0:30:29 > 0:30:34preferred pronouns.

0:30:34 > 0:30:37Once we start using she for a man, we are blurring the distinction.

0:30:37 > 0:30:41Venice Allan is a Labour member but those views got her suspended.

0:30:41 > 0:30:44She knows what she says is offensive to the trans community

0:30:44 > 0:30:49but makes no apology for it.

0:30:49 > 0:30:52I really do want to have this conversation, like I say,

0:30:52 > 0:30:56you don't have to agree with us but you do have to listen to us.

0:30:56 > 0:30:58Like the Labour Party, you know, they're not listening.

0:30:58 > 0:31:01I've tried to set up Momentum events, Labour events, I've tried

0:31:01 > 0:31:04to meet with Jeremy Corbyn and other politicians.

0:31:04 > 0:31:10Labour were supposed to formally clarify their support for trans

0:31:10 > 0:31:12women on all-women short lists at a meeting at the

0:31:12 > 0:31:16party's HQ this week. would have triggered

0:31:16 > 0:31:18the resignations of more than 200 female members.

0:31:18 > 0:31:19Then yesterday, Labour told us that formal discussion

0:31:19 > 0:31:22was delayed until June.

0:31:23 > 0:31:27This is all a precursor to a much wider political debate

0:31:27 > 0:31:29going on with the Government committing to update

0:31:29 > 0:31:31the Gender Recognition Act.

0:31:31 > 0:31:34As the Prime Minister has explained, the changes would allow people

0:31:34 > 0:31:37to self define their gender without the need for

0:31:37 > 0:31:39medical diagnosis.

0:31:39 > 0:31:42We have set out plans to reform the Gender Recognition Act,

0:31:42 > 0:31:45streamlining and demedicalising the process for changing gender,

0:31:45 > 0:31:47because being trans is not an illness and it shouldn't be

0:31:47 > 0:31:53treated as such.

0:31:55 > 0:32:01Since she made that speech at the Pink Awards last October,

0:32:01 > 0:32:04progress on those changes to the Gender Recognition Act seems

0:32:04 > 0:32:09to have slowed down.

0:32:09 > 0:32:13I've asked the Government what's going on and they just say in this

0:32:13 > 0:32:15very short statement that a consultation will be published

0:32:15 > 0:32:19in due course, but no date given.

0:32:19 > 0:32:23And our various requests to speak to politicians both in favour

0:32:23 > 0:32:26and opposed to these changes were all turned down, which came

0:32:26 > 0:32:30as little surprise to some. politicians who have

0:32:30 > 0:32:32questions about this, who have doubts about it,

0:32:32 > 0:32:38who don't dare express those doubts, raise those questions,

0:32:38 > 0:32:42because they are worried that if they do they will be screamed at,

0:32:42 > 0:32:44they will be accused of bigotry and transphobia simply

0:32:44 > 0:32:46for asking questions.

0:32:46 > 0:32:49James Kirkup has written a number of columns on the updates to the act

0:32:49 > 0:32:51and isn't sure it's been properly thought through.

0:32:51 > 0:32:56There are questions about access to safe spaces for women

0:32:56 > 0:32:58in domestic violence refuges, there are questions

0:32:58 > 0:33:00about the collection, collation of statistics

0:33:00 > 0:33:04on crime, on pay.

0:33:04 > 0:33:07Questions that should be asked, debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:07 > 0:33:14Heather Peto says the changes debated, discussed and answered.

0:33:14 > 0:33:16and hopes she can one day speak up for the rights of the

0:33:16 > 0:33:19trans-community from the benches of the House of Commons.

0:33:19 > 0:33:21As a feminist, I would stand up to that and say, no,

0:33:21 > 0:33:24I will just be who I am.

0:33:24 > 0:33:26I have the self-confidence that I'm a woman and I always have been,

0:33:26 > 0:33:32and people should just accept me for that.

0:33:32 > 0:33:36The two chip significant issues pick about bout the Labour Party and

0:33:36 > 0:33:39the Government's

0:33:39 > 0:33:39pick about bout the Labour Party and transgender rights, let me start

0:33:39 > 0:33:44transgender rights, let me start with you, Matt -- two significant

0:33:44 > 0:33:48transgender rights, let me start issues. The government is

0:33:48 > 0:33:48transgender rights, let me start terrible tangle on transgender women

0:33:48 > 0:33:54on all women short lists and they've had to put it off until June.Self

0:33:54 > 0:33:57identifying trans-woman has never been disbarred from being on a

0:33:57 > 0:34:02women's short list in the

0:34:02 > 0:34:03been disbarred from being on a selection. The consultation was, as

0:34:03 > 0:34:06I understand it, coming up with a

0:34:06 > 0:34:09selection. The consultation was, as form of words...Clarifying the

0:34:09 > 0:34:11position that trans-women are elaborate rules to be on all women

0:34:11 > 0:34:13short lists, it

0:34:13 > 0:34:15elaborate rules to be on all women around the party with two prominent

0:34:15 > 0:34:16elaborate rules to be on all women members threatening to resign if

0:34:16 > 0:34:19elaborate rules to be on all women that warning is put in, that

0:34:19 > 0:34:19elaborate rules to be on all women party has been bucking the

0:34:19 > 0:34:22elaborate rules to be on all women and kicking it into

0:34:22 > 0:34:24elaborate rules to be on all women The conversations I have had with

0:34:24 > 0:34:26the leader's of this suggest

0:34:26 > 0:34:28The conversations I have had with not the case, they are

0:34:28 > 0:34:28The conversations I have had with consulting on it and exactly what

0:34:28 > 0:34:30consulting on it and exactly what the form of words will be there is

0:34:30 > 0:34:37no actual plan as far as I'm aware to stop trans-women self identifying

0:34:37 > 0:34:38no actual plan as far as I'm aware and being on a women's short list.

0:34:38 > 0:34:40Can I ask how many trans-women are

0:34:40 > 0:34:42and being on a women's short list. applying to be on all women short

0:34:42 > 0:34:49lists?I'm not sure.I suspect it is zero.Heather Peto is one of them in

0:34:49 > 0:34:52zero.Heather Peto is one of them in the film, there may be several.

0:34:52 > 0:34:58There may be but I suspect it is less than the number of women on

0:34:58 > 0:35:00this.

0:35:03 > 0:35:06Not from any disparaging how difficult it must be to be in

0:35:06 > 0:35:08Not from any disparaging how situation. There would

0:35:08 > 0:35:10Not from any disparaging how way of resolving the switch would

0:35:10 > 0:35:12Not from any disparaging how not to have all women short lists

0:35:12 > 0:35:13Not from any disparaging how and select the best candidates for

0:35:13 > 0:35:20the job.It is also about whether Labour MPs have access to the

0:35:20 > 0:35:24leadership programme, whether they can stand as women's officers in

0:35:24 > 0:35:26local parties. What Labour did

0:35:26 > 0:35:28can stand as women's officers in they jumped the gun by saying it is

0:35:28 > 0:35:33fine, or self identifying trans-women can have access to these

0:35:33 > 0:35:37full rights. I think it is quite welcome to have a

0:35:37 > 0:35:39full rights. I think it is quite Politics is the art of persuasion

0:35:39 > 0:35:41and there was no real attempt

0:35:41 > 0:35:41Politics is the art of persuasion Labour leadership to bring the

0:35:41 > 0:35:46party, bring some of the feminist... There are radical feminists in the

0:35:46 > 0:35:50party who will take more than a bit of gentle persuasion to

0:35:50 > 0:35:51party who will take more than a bit accustomed to the idea

0:35:51 > 0:35:53party who will take more than a bit who were born men should be

0:35:53 > 0:35:54party who will take more than a bit all women short list.That's right

0:35:54 > 0:36:03but as we saw in the VT they are asking for an opportunity to be

0:36:05 > 0:36:07heard and the debate to be had so it

0:36:07 > 0:36:09asking for an opportunity to be is quite welcome there will be a

0:36:09 > 0:36:11consultation.It's not just

0:36:11 > 0:36:13is quite welcome there will be a kicked on this issue

0:36:13 > 0:36:14is quite welcome there will be a know what happened to the

0:36:14 > 0:36:18Government's consultation

0:36:18 > 0:36:18or woman. That's going to be a difficult one for the government.

0:36:18 > 0:36:20Remember the

0:36:20 > 0:36:20difficult one for the government. toy party that David Cameron fought

0:36:20 > 0:36:21difficult one for the government. over gay marriage.Absolutely and

0:36:21 > 0:36:23this is even much

0:36:23 > 0:36:25over gay marriage.Absolutely and and a sensitive issue.

0:36:25 > 0:36:27over gay marriage.Absolutely and and I've been guilty of it myself to

0:36:27 > 0:36:29and I've been guilty of it myself to get the language are wrong on this,

0:36:29 > 0:36:34to upset people, and I can

0:36:34 > 0:36:35get the language are wrong on this, imagine the Prime Minister's qualms

0:36:35 > 0:36:39about opening this can of worms about opening this can of worms

0:36:39 > 0:36:42within her own party, where there will be people who

0:36:42 > 0:36:46within her own party, where there off message about it. It seems they

0:36:46 > 0:36:49are pushing agendas are long

0:36:49 > 0:36:50off message about it. It seems they and there are bigger issues to worry

0:36:50 > 0:36:52off message about it. It seems they about.You are talking about 2000 or

0:36:52 > 0:36:593000 people in a party of 650,000. It is a rounding error.In the

0:36:59 > 0:37:003000 people in a party of 650,000. Labour Party, you're talking about?

0:37:00 > 0:37:023000 people in a party of 650,000. It is not splitting the party, it is

0:37:02 > 0:37:053000 people in a party of 650,000. a small minority of women who don't

0:37:05 > 0:37:063000 people in a party of 650,000. believe in trans-rights, that's it.

0:37:06 > 0:37:08Interesting to hear Theresa

0:37:08 > 0:37:09believe in trans-rights, that's it. talking about the Government's

0:37:09 > 0:37:12consultation. That was a clear statement she made

0:37:12 > 0:37:14consultation. That was a clear conference saying she wanted

0:37:14 > 0:37:16consultation. That was a clear streamline this and trans-wasn't a

0:37:16 > 0:37:19mental health issue, she made a

0:37:19 > 0:37:21streamline this and trans-wasn't a strong commitment

0:37:21 > 0:37:22streamline this and trans-wasn't a and she didn't have to do that.She

0:37:22 > 0:37:26and she didn't have to do that.She didn't at all and

0:37:26 > 0:37:28and she didn't have to do that.She she went as far as that. It is not

0:37:28 > 0:37:30unprecedented. Ireland, Argentina,

0:37:30 > 0:37:31she went as far as that. It is not Colombia and Malta have changed

0:37:31 > 0:37:33their processes to deep apologise it

0:37:33 > 0:37:35Colombia and Malta have changed so it is merely a legal process and

0:37:35 > 0:37:38that is what the

0:37:38 > 0:37:40so it is merely a legal process and getting at. My understanding is for

0:37:40 > 0:37:42a person to legally change their

0:37:42 > 0:37:44getting at. My understanding is for gender they have to live as their

0:37:44 > 0:37:47desired gender for two years and they have to have psychiatric

0:37:47 > 0:37:48they have to have

0:37:48 > 0:37:48evaluations and medical opinions they have to have

0:37:48 > 0:37:50evaluations and medical opinions from two doctors and tests that some

0:37:50 > 0:37:59have claimed are incredibly traumatising. It can be made legal

0:37:59 > 0:38:00process from precedents aboard.We

0:38:00 > 0:38:03traumatising. It can be made legal will carry

0:38:03 > 0:38:03traumatising. It can be made legal throughout the programme.

0:38:03 > 0:38:05It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:05 > 0:38:06Still to come -

0:38:06 > 0:38:09There is a big row brewing in the Brexit Select Committee

0:38:09 > 0:38:11and I'll be talking to its Chairman - Hilary Benn.

0:38:11 > 0:38:13First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:13 > 0:38:19I see this role is

0:38:24 > 0:38:31-- welcome to Sunday Politics. Coming up. The first Welsh taxes for

0:38:31 > 0:38:37800 years will kick in next month. Are we ready? And could last

0:38:37 > 0:38:42vehicles be an alternative to the Swansea Bay metal? First, Alex

0:38:42 > 0:38:48Kearns has been well secretary for two years, with Brexit and other

0:38:48 > 0:38:50opportunities crossing his desk. I asked him how he thought things had

0:38:50 > 0:38:55been going when I met him. Well, it has been a fantastic

0:38:55 > 0:38:59privilege in the first instance. I wanted to play my part in bringing a

0:38:59 > 0:39:02much warmer relationship, more constructive relationship, between

0:39:02 > 0:39:07the Welsh and UK Government. Funding was a key issue. People in Wales

0:39:07 > 0:39:11have rightly been complaining for some time there needed to be in new

0:39:11 > 0:39:14funding settlement, and I think that is one of the most significant

0:39:14 > 0:39:19outcomes. Overall, it is about getting people to understand that

0:39:19 > 0:39:23there are two governmentus in Wales, one that act in the devolved area,

0:39:23 > 0:39:26the Welsh Government, and then in reserve spaces there is the UK

0:39:26 > 0:39:30government, which is also relevant to people working in Wales.This

0:39:30 > 0:39:40time last year, the big accomplishments were Wales Act,

0:39:40 > 0:39:42physical framework, mobile coverage and business support. In the year

0:39:42 > 0:39:48since then, what would you say are the big things you have achieved?It

0:39:48 > 0:39:54is a central part around Brexit. The referendum, are outcome of that, was

0:39:54 > 0:39:57a surprise to many. We have an obligation to act on that

0:39:57 > 0:40:00instruction, because Wales voted to leave. It has made the role of the

0:40:00 > 0:40:03Secretary of State for Wales much more exciting and central to the

0:40:03 > 0:40:09thinking of government process. There are several Brexit committees.

0:40:09 > 0:40:15I specialise in the one in trade and the one in domestic preparations, as

0:40:15 > 0:40:20well as economic affairs. That has enabled me to ensure that the UK

0:40:20 > 0:40:24government represents every part of the United Kingdom. Wales is my

0:40:24 > 0:40:29interest, as it moves forward in preparations to leave the EU.It is

0:40:29 > 0:40:32interesting that you say the relationships between the two

0:40:32 > 0:40:35governments have been a step forward, Brexit, because you could

0:40:35 > 0:40:40argue... With the repeal Bill and so-called power grab from the UK

0:40:40 > 0:40:42Government, as the Welsh Government would call it, that actually

0:40:42 > 0:40:46relations have been under a lot of pressure between the two.Let's go

0:40:46 > 0:40:52back to the Wills bill, Wales act. There were many journalists, maybe

0:40:52 > 0:40:55you included, who suggested that I would never get agreement between

0:40:55 > 0:40:59the UK Government and Welsh Government. It was only by hard work

0:40:59 > 0:41:04and determination that we succeeded. In relation to the European Union

0:41:04 > 0:41:12withdrawal bill, and it does -- equally optimistic.The

0:41:12 > 0:41:17electrification of the line from London to Cardiff has happened over

0:41:17 > 0:41:20the last year, but it has been cancelled to Swansea. Over the last

0:41:20 > 0:41:26year or two, does that have to count as a failure?No, I think that is

0:41:26 > 0:41:30the right decision. It is taxpayers' money. It is the same train, which

0:41:30 > 0:41:33will take this amount of time...But when it was going to Swansea, you

0:41:33 > 0:41:37were in favour of that, saying it needed to happen. Now it is not, you

0:41:37 > 0:41:42say it is still the right decision. It has to be either order.No, it is

0:41:42 > 0:41:47the same train that the excessive amount of time, and spending

0:41:47 > 0:41:49potentially £700 million on electrifying a railway when the

0:41:49 > 0:41:52train was by model and would not have got any quicker, it did not

0:41:52 > 0:41:59make in a sense.Another issue that your detractors would be very

0:41:59 > 0:42:03unhappy with is your continued reluctance, refusal, to devolve air

0:42:03 > 0:42:08passenger duty to the Welsh Government, citing, as the UK

0:42:08 > 0:42:12Government has, that it would be too damaging to Bristol airport. You are

0:42:12 > 0:42:17not fully there are standing up for Wales strongly enough, is that fair?

0:42:17 > 0:42:21I do not accept that. First of all, the commission did not come up with

0:42:21 > 0:42:27an agreement on this issue. The First Minister was calling for air

0:42:27 > 0:42:30passenger duty to be devolved, but that is pretty anti-competitive...

0:42:30 > 0:42:34So does the labour of the conservative and Wales is not the

0:42:34 > 0:42:39leader of the Conservatives.Only UK bases, the most important market...

0:42:39 > 0:42:44You should be looking at Wills, not the UK.The most important market to

0:42:44 > 0:42:50Wales as the UK market, because 80% of output from Wills goes to the

0:42:50 > 0:42:55rest of the UK, and, therefore, the vibrancy of the Welsh economy is

0:42:55 > 0:42:59dependent on the strength of the UK economy, and the UK economy is

0:42:59 > 0:43:02dependent on the strength of the Welsh economy.

0:43:02 > 0:43:05One of the success you have always cited as the server until being

0:43:05 > 0:43:12abolished. We see in the media that the Newport area is being seen as an

0:43:12 > 0:43:18area where people are trying houses, the Bristol posts saying there is

0:43:18 > 0:43:23going to be a mass exodus to Wales, were historically ones are cheaper.

0:43:23 > 0:43:30-- the Severn Toll. As the consequence of abolishing the tolls

0:43:30 > 0:43:33would be an influx of a lot of south eastern English people did wheels,

0:43:33 > 0:43:41would that be regrettable?So, are are you asking if I should keep that

0:43:41 > 0:43:45all 30 TV barrier?Every action has a consequence, what consequence

0:43:45 > 0:43:58could be from migration to South East Wills.You have a toll across

0:43:58 > 0:44:03the whole of the border to stop that?This is removing that.We

0:44:03 > 0:44:06don't worry about that cross-border issue in north-east Wales. Airbus is

0:44:06 > 0:44:10there. 40% of the employees of Airbus come from the English side of

0:44:10 > 0:44:15the border. That is good for the economy. It shows a greater dynamic

0:44:15 > 0:44:21of movement between those places. Therefore, on that basis, by

0:44:21 > 0:44:25removing the tollus on the Severn Bridge, it has created excitement in

0:44:25 > 0:44:29the business community, because the biggest prospect...But there are

0:44:29 > 0:44:33cultural aspects. The economic reasons behind it are well-known.

0:44:33 > 0:44:40Less discussed the possible population changes which could

0:44:40 > 0:44:42result from them, and I am not really getting a sense from you as

0:44:42 > 0:44:44to whether or not you think that would be good or bad.There are

0:44:44 > 0:44:48going to be challenges along the way, without question. If there are

0:44:48 > 0:44:51more people working in an area, there is greater demand for housing.

0:44:51 > 0:44:55On that basis, there is going to be a social policy, because that has to

0:44:55 > 0:45:01be resolved in terms of extra housing. There is going to be

0:45:01 > 0:45:02greater need for development for business property. The biggest

0:45:02 > 0:45:08property deal last year in Wales took place after the Severn Tollus,

0:45:08 > 0:45:11and the agent said it was because they were being abolished. This goes

0:45:11 > 0:45:14to show that there is an excitement amongst the business community. This

0:45:14 > 0:45:19is about, look, politics is about improving people's lives. It is

0:45:19 > 0:45:26about creating more wealth, sharing wealth on a better basis. We can

0:45:26 > 0:45:32always be poor by keeping a barrier between us and other economies, or

0:45:32 > 0:45:34more dynamic economies. That is quite easily done. And then you can

0:45:34 > 0:45:41defend it by saying we need those tollus in order to maintain that

0:45:41 > 0:45:44barrier. That is not the right thing to do. I want the greatest movement,

0:45:44 > 0:45:54the greatest dynamism in the economy. I want to go -- the

0:45:54 > 0:45:58critical mass that we create between Bristol and Cardiff to start

0:45:58 > 0:46:02campaigning with London and the south east.

0:46:02 > 0:46:06Welsh liver's election for a dip into leader is still going on. A few

0:46:06 > 0:46:09weeks ago, you will remember Julie Morgan, one of the candidates, what

0:46:09 > 0:46:14you're making her pitch. But what of her opponent, Carolyn Harris? A

0:46:14 > 0:46:18short while ago, I began by asking her why she wanted the job.

0:46:18 > 0:46:20I see this role as being about campaigning, motivating

0:46:20 > 0:46:21and enthusing people.

0:46:21 > 0:46:23I've been an MP since 2015 and every campaign I have

0:46:23 > 0:46:27taken on, I think I have delivered the goods on.

0:46:27 > 0:46:27I've led the way on 1950s women,

0:46:27 > 0:46:30I've managed to get children's funerals free in Wales

0:46:30 > 0:46:32and I'm very, very close to getting them

0:46:32 > 0:46:33in the rest of the UK.

0:46:33 > 0:46:34Fixed-odd betting terminals - dreadful,

0:46:34 > 0:46:37dreadful machines - were somewhere on the horizon,

0:46:37 > 0:46:39but they are now at the top of the political agenda

0:46:39 > 0:46:42and I'm hopeful that we're going to get something on that very soon.

0:46:42 > 0:46:45So, I think I've proved myself to be the kind of person

0:46:45 > 0:46:48who can work with people, talk to people, listen to people.

0:46:48 > 0:46:51I home in on the issues and I love getting my sleeves rolled up

0:46:51 > 0:46:55and getting the job done.

0:46:55 > 0:46:58What kind of campaigns do you think are needed

0:46:58 > 0:46:59as deputy leader of Welsh Labour, then?

0:46:59 > 0:47:01Well, we don't really know yet, do we?

0:47:01 > 0:47:03We don't know until we get out there and

0:47:03 > 0:47:04actually speak to people.

0:47:04 > 0:47:07I think we need to do more work within the party

0:47:07 > 0:47:09about supporting people who want to become members,

0:47:09 > 0:47:11who want to become part of the Labour family,

0:47:11 > 0:47:15especially for women and minority groups who have access problems,

0:47:15 > 0:47:19or even childcare problems, and if you put yourself up

0:47:19 > 0:47:21as a candidate, it's extremely emotionally draining

0:47:21 > 0:47:24and financially draining, so I would like to see us doing

0:47:24 > 0:47:27more on that in terms of working with people

0:47:27 > 0:47:31and training people and giving them an idea of

0:47:31 > 0:47:33what they're getting themselves into, but it is not just

0:47:33 > 0:47:34about the membership, is it?

0:47:34 > 0:47:37It is about talking to people in our communities.

0:47:37 > 0:47:39This 3 million people in Wales.

0:47:39 > 0:47:42They need us, they need us to listen to them, and I see this role

0:47:42 > 0:47:46as about working with not just membership but working with

0:47:46 > 0:47:47everybody in Wales to find out what we can do to

0:47:47 > 0:47:49make their life easier.

0:47:49 > 0:47:51As a member of Parliament, I just wonder, if you are

0:47:51 > 0:47:55the deputy leader of Welsh Labour, who then, ultimately,

0:47:55 > 0:47:56do you think is your boss?

0:47:56 > 0:48:00Is it Carwyn Jones or is it Jeremy Corbyn?

0:48:00 > 0:48:01Who do you have to listen to if there is

0:48:01 > 0:48:03a disagreement between the two leaders?

0:48:03 > 0:48:05Well, if there was a disagreement to the detriment of Wales,

0:48:05 > 0:48:08then obviously Welsh Labour wins hands down, because I am

0:48:08 > 0:48:10a Welsh politician, a Welsh MP, I have to put my constituency

0:48:10 > 0:48:11and Wales first.

0:48:11 > 0:48:15But I can't ever imagine there would be a time when the two

0:48:15 > 0:48:18did not agree on something, because, in all fairness to Jeremy, he does

0:48:18 > 0:48:20leave devolution to sort itself out

0:48:20 > 0:48:25and does not interfere in Welsh politics.

0:48:25 > 0:48:30If it did arise, I will take your point that it may well not,

0:48:30 > 0:48:33but you would defy the party whip in Parliament

0:48:33 > 0:48:35and vote against it on that basis?

0:48:35 > 0:48:40Well, I have defied the party whip before.

0:48:40 > 0:48:42I defied the party whip on welfare reform.

0:48:42 > 0:48:44I was actually in the lobby with Jeremy Corbyn.

0:48:44 > 0:48:46There was only 47 of us, but I was there then.

0:48:46 > 0:48:49It's not something I would be afraid to do,

0:48:49 > 0:48:50because I have done it before.

0:48:50 > 0:48:53One of the big issues I am sure you will be aware of

0:48:53 > 0:48:55is one member, one vote and whether or not

0:48:55 > 0:48:57it should be used or should not be

0:48:57 > 0:48:59to elect the next Labour leader in Wales.

0:48:59 > 0:49:01What are your views on that?

0:49:01 > 0:49:04In terms of the college, I am very much in favour of the unions

0:49:04 > 0:49:05having a say.

0:49:05 > 0:49:07People need to remember that the unions did not

0:49:07 > 0:49:09join the Labour Party, they created the Labour Party.

0:49:09 > 0:49:11Yes, I support that part of the college.

0:49:11 > 0:49:14What I would say is that some people, who

0:49:14 > 0:49:17we say are on the left, people like Diane Abbott, Clive Lewis, have

0:49:17 > 0:49:19actually come out in support of me because they work with me,

0:49:19 > 0:49:22they know me, they understand me, they know my motives,

0:49:22 > 0:49:30they know my motivation.

0:49:30 > 0:49:33And for those to get personally criticised for supporting

0:49:33 > 0:49:37me because I am not supporting OMOV...

0:49:37 > 0:49:40Sure, but would you be happy if you got the support of

0:49:40 > 0:49:42the unions but not of the membership?

0:49:42 > 0:49:45Would that still be, in your view, a strong enough victory?

0:49:45 > 0:49:48I like to think that the membership will see past the process

0:49:48 > 0:49:49and will actually, like my colleagues who

0:49:49 > 0:49:50supported me, agree that...

0:49:50 > 0:49:52The process is decided.

0:49:52 > 0:49:57We've got to move on now.

0:49:57 > 0:49:59We can't talk, 25,000 of us talking to each other,

0:49:59 > 0:50:02we need to talk to the 3 million people out there who need us.

0:50:02 > 0:50:04Yes, I've had a union support, so has Julie, but,

0:50:04 > 0:50:07yes, I have got membership support because not everybody is obsessed

0:50:07 > 0:50:08with OMOV, if I'm honest.

0:50:08 > 0:50:10Most people can see past that and see

0:50:10 > 0:50:13that they need the best person for the job

0:50:13 > 0:50:16and that we need to look beyond the process.

0:50:16 > 0:50:20As a female politician, how safe a place do you think

0:50:20 > 0:50:22politics is for women in Wales specifically, and what will your

0:50:22 > 0:50:27role be in trying to prove that?

0:50:27 > 0:50:29I personally, myself, have come under

0:50:29 > 0:50:31some really nasty personal attacks,

0:50:31 > 0:50:34so I understand it is very uncomfortable.

0:50:34 > 0:50:36It is uncomfortable for men, it's not just women

0:50:36 > 0:50:37who are vulnerable to this.

0:50:37 > 0:50:42But I think that we need to be supporting women

0:50:42 > 0:50:44to understand how they can best tackle it.

0:50:44 > 0:50:47Some people say grow a second skin, it's not always possible to

0:50:47 > 0:50:50grow a second skin when people are being really

0:50:50 > 0:50:51personal about you, so

0:50:51 > 0:50:57I think we do need to be better at nurturing and supporting

0:50:57 > 0:51:00on all aspects of involvement with the party.

0:51:00 > 0:51:00I am really happy...

0:51:00 > 0:51:02I am a good listener.

0:51:02 > 0:51:05I am a good talker but I am a good listener, and I've

0:51:05 > 0:51:08got a big heart and a big mouth, so I can actually be

0:51:08 > 0:51:09what I need to be for everyone.

0:51:09 > 0:51:11Thank you very much.

0:51:11 > 0:51:18Thank you.

0:51:18 > 0:51:22In just a couple of weeks, Wales will be collecting its first taxes

0:51:22 > 0:51:28in its own right as a country ever, or at least since the days of the

0:51:28 > 0:51:3213th century, so are we ready, and how big is steak is this? We have

0:51:32 > 0:51:34been looking through the history books.

0:51:34 > 0:51:37A new page of Welsh history is set to be written.

0:51:37 > 0:51:40On the 1st of April 2018, Wales will once again take

0:51:40 > 0:51:45charge of some of its taxes.

0:51:45 > 0:51:48The last time any kind of taxes were collected

0:51:48 > 0:51:49by Welsh authorities

0:51:49 > 0:51:51was nearly 800 years ago.

0:51:51 > 0:51:53Since Tyler's church, now rebuilt here,

0:51:53 > 0:51:56dates from that time.

0:51:56 > 0:52:01As you'd expect, back then, Wales was a very different place.

0:52:01 > 0:52:03When we think about Wales in the Middle Ages, we think

0:52:03 > 0:52:07about it a four different independent countries.

0:52:07 > 0:52:09Gwynedd, Powys and then what is now Ceredigion.

0:52:09 > 0:52:11Those three, together with one that disappeared just after the

0:52:11 > 0:52:15Normans turned up, pulled and tugged against each other

0:52:15 > 0:52:17for the whole of the Middle Ages.

0:52:17 > 0:52:20There never really was a single, you know, country,

0:52:20 > 0:52:21as we would think.

0:52:21 > 0:52:24They were all taxed differently.

0:52:24 > 0:52:28In terms of all of what we know was Wales being taxed in

0:52:28 > 0:52:31a uniform fashion, this is the first time in history.

0:52:31 > 0:52:33So, what taxes are on the cards for April?

0:52:33 > 0:52:36The land transaction tax, which replaces the old stamp duty on

0:52:36 > 0:52:38property, and the landfill disposal tax, which replaces Westminster's

0:52:38 > 0:52:43landfill tax.

0:52:43 > 0:52:45These will be collected by the Welsh Revenue Authority,

0:52:45 > 0:52:48from their new base.

0:52:48 > 0:52:50We are a small but highly specialised organisation.

0:52:50 > 0:52:55So, we are going to be about 70 people, and yet we are

0:52:55 > 0:52:58going to have to be able to offer the same sort of suite of services

0:52:58 > 0:53:00that you would expect from HMRC.

0:53:00 > 0:53:08The biggest change, anyway, is that these new taxes we pay

0:53:08 > 0:53:09to the WRA, it's what happens afterwards,

0:53:09 > 0:53:11in a way, it's the biggest change.

0:53:11 > 0:53:14That money is then specifically for Welsh Government to spend on public

0:53:14 > 0:53:16services in Wales, and so there is no connection to London.

0:53:16 > 0:53:18But Plaid Cymru's economic adviser is doubtful

0:53:18 > 0:53:19much will change.

0:53:19 > 0:53:21Do you think there will be more spending

0:53:21 > 0:53:22on public services?

0:53:22 > 0:53:27I doubt it, because the ideal way is getting more spending,

0:53:27 > 0:53:30getting more tax revenue is not to put up the rate of tax,

0:53:30 > 0:53:32it is not to increase tax but build the economy.

0:53:32 > 0:53:35If you grow the economy, you grow the tax base

0:53:35 > 0:53:37without putting up the rates of tax.

0:53:37 > 0:53:39And how will these new powers change the Assembly's role in

0:53:39 > 0:53:41deciding which taxes are collected?

0:53:41 > 0:53:43Assembly Members will be able to block them,

0:53:43 > 0:53:44if they so choose to,

0:53:44 > 0:53:47or endorse them, so it will give them power

0:53:47 > 0:53:49now of the equivalent of the money bill,

0:53:49 > 0:53:54but they already have the power to block the Welsh budget.

0:53:54 > 0:53:57They may wish to put riders with that and also the taxes,

0:53:57 > 0:53:59or they might have, you know, new private members bills

0:53:59 > 0:54:02or other bills to come in

0:54:02 > 0:54:05in order to have new taxes on various products.

0:54:05 > 0:54:06You know, for example plastic bottles

0:54:06 > 0:54:07or something like that.

0:54:07 > 0:54:11And there are more tax powers heading this way,

0:54:11 > 0:54:15with control over income tax rates

0:54:15 > 0:54:17set to be devolved in April next year.

0:54:17 > 0:54:19Scotland has had some income tax powers since 1999.

0:54:19 > 0:54:22The powers here are quite limited, far more

0:54:22 > 0:54:24limited than the Scottish powers on income tax.

0:54:24 > 0:54:27It's going to raise about £2 billion.

0:54:27 > 0:54:29That is 2 billion out of the 15 billion, roughly, the

0:54:29 > 0:54:32Welsh Government spends every year.

0:54:32 > 0:54:33It is material, but not that large.

0:54:33 > 0:54:37There will be hopes in the Westminster Government

0:54:37 > 0:54:41that the Welsh Government and Assembly are responsible enough

0:54:41 > 0:54:44to enable more powers to be devolved over tax-raising powers,

0:54:44 > 0:54:47and they will probably be hope within the Assembly

0:54:47 > 0:54:51that they can develop more income streams,

0:54:51 > 0:54:57new types of taxation, to increase their own spending.

0:54:57 > 0:55:00So, the 1st of April, a day for the history books.

0:55:00 > 0:55:02But, of course, we all know that, in the end,

0:55:02 > 0:55:10no matter who collects the taxes, we still have to pay them.

0:55:14 > 0:55:18Now, we know there is going to be a Metro transport system in South East

0:55:18 > 0:55:21Wills, and also north Wales, and there are also plans for a network

0:55:21 > 0:55:27in the Swansea Bay region, but how should it work? There is a call for

0:55:27 > 0:55:30it to be based not on trains and trams but a system of driverless

0:55:30 > 0:55:34vehicles. The region could lead the way and developing alternative

0:55:34 > 0:55:39transport like this, and the man who said that joins me now. I will not

0:55:39 > 0:55:43ask a UK men, whether or not any driverless vehicle, but that is your

0:55:43 > 0:55:48proposal, instead of having these trends, you just call a driverless

0:55:48 > 0:55:54vehicle and it takes you really want to go?He eats for getting people to

0:55:54 > 0:55:57replace car journeys with public transport is having a turn up and go

0:55:57 > 0:56:01public transport system. In London, you do not have to wait very long

0:56:01 > 0:56:03before something comes up. That is clearly not the case in London, you

0:56:03 > 0:56:06do not have to wait very long before something comes up. That is clearly

0:56:06 > 0:56:09not the case and well. In parts of the country, the last bus leaves at

0:56:09 > 0:56:144pm. There are four trains per day from some places to Swansea, or a

0:56:14 > 0:56:18bus that takes you to and a half hours for a 30 minute card running.

0:56:18 > 0:56:23You will not persuade people to give up their car in those circumstances,

0:56:23 > 0:56:26so how can we realistically create a turn up and caught transport system

0:56:26 > 0:56:29in Swansea Bay? You cannot rely on the train network, as you would in

0:56:29 > 0:56:35the valleys, so we need to think imaginatively. I am then, let's not

0:56:35 > 0:56:39play catch up, let's try to leapfrog.When you see leapfrog and

0:56:39 > 0:56:43catch up, you are suggesting these driverless vehicles, which are being

0:56:43 > 0:56:48tested, they are being used in places like Greenwich in London

0:56:48 > 0:56:52already, but it is an emerging technology at best. I guess the

0:56:52 > 0:56:55problem could be at the risk to boot, you know, your eggs in that

0:56:55 > 0:57:02basket, because it may not work on end.The Swansea Bay region is just

0:57:02 > 0:57:04a concept, an outline study being commissioned. These things are

0:57:04 > 0:57:09moving very quickly. Six years ago, Hooper did not exist. Half of all

0:57:09 > 0:57:17journeys in London are now made by Goober, and they have a pool

0:57:17 > 0:57:24servers, which is basically a minibus. -- are made by Uber. That

0:57:24 > 0:57:29sort of technology is already making existing large, empty buses

0:57:29 > 0:57:32redundant. People do not want to go on them. You add automated vehicles

0:57:32 > 0:57:38into the mix and the UK government expect them to be on sale in the UK

0:57:38 > 0:57:44in three years. This is happening quickly. Let's not try to create a

0:57:44 > 0:57:48Manchester or Sheffield - type tram system, we are 30 years behind the

0:57:48 > 0:57:52curve. Let's try to leapfrog, using new technology and creating the

0:57:52 > 0:57:58Swansea Bay region as a test-bed, to try out the driverless technology.

0:57:58 > 0:58:02We can try out wireless recharging. We can go through the regulatory

0:58:02 > 0:58:06barriers and access hurdles, so we see come to us, experiment here, we

0:58:06 > 0:58:08will underpin it with the five G test-bed, and let's do something

0:58:08 > 0:58:13exciting.Is the danger not, it is exciting, it could work, but the

0:58:13 > 0:58:18problem is you are saying testing out a novel lot of new technologies.

0:58:18 > 0:58:23Maybe people in Swansea Bay did not want to be the guinea pigs.Stop

0:58:23 > 0:58:28being so conservative! Look at the power that we have.It is public

0:58:28 > 0:58:36money.Look at broadband. We spend tens of million pounds to

0:58:37 > 0:58:41tens of million pounds to give BT old-fashioned telephone cabinets

0:58:41 > 0:58:46with copper wire, but if you had started with fibre, this is an exact

0:58:46 > 0:58:49parallel. For too long, we have been playing catch-up and are not very

0:58:49 > 0:58:55good. We take ages and the result is often pretty shoddy. We are starting

0:58:55 > 0:58:59from a blank sheet of paper, let's go straight to the future solution,

0:58:59 > 0:59:05rather than playing catch up.This comes across the desk of the economy

0:59:05 > 0:59:09and transport Secretary, we know he is quite keen on driverless

0:59:09 > 0:59:14vehicles, he wants Welsh roads to be tested... Test centres for

0:59:14 > 0:59:17driverless vehicles, do you think you would go something like this?I

0:59:17 > 0:59:23am hoping he will. Things are moving quick. The place we are currently

0:59:23 > 0:59:26moving, the Cardiff and valleys Metro is moving very slowly because

0:59:26 > 0:59:29that is complex. In the next five years, you will not see many new

0:59:29 > 0:59:31services because of all of the transferring of the track and

0:59:31 > 0:59:34converting it to L. All prerequisites to get a real system

0:59:34 > 0:59:39working in a different way. Driverless technology offers us the

0:59:39 > 0:59:43chance to not bother with that and having these car sharing, lift

0:59:43 > 0:59:46sharing pods coming around and within every want to go. The

0:59:46 > 0:59:49exciting thing with machine learning, artificial intelligence,

0:59:49 > 0:59:54it is changing rapidly. What machine learning will do if the computer

0:59:54 > 0:59:57algorithm will create the routes where people want to go, so you

0:59:57 > 1:00:03won't have timetables, it will go from maps, two apps. That is the

1:00:03 > 1:00:07exciting opportunity here.Do you think there would need to be a

1:00:07 > 1:00:10hybrid, will you would have to have some of those buses and trains, as

1:00:10 > 1:00:14well as having these boards, and then it becomes incredibly expensive

1:00:14 > 1:00:18to deliver all of that?To begin with, clearly, we will have to

1:00:18 > 1:00:21transition is, which is why we will need a test-bed to work this out.

1:00:21 > 1:00:26But if we can crack it in certain areas, we can be the place that

1:00:26 > 1:00:28people look to to see what the future of public transport looks

1:00:28 > 1:00:32like, rather than trying to ape part of England 20 to 30 years ahead of

1:00:32 > 1:00:36us.You see it will not happen any Jensen, how much of a timetable, if

1:00:36 > 1:00:42you excuse the pun, how soon do you think this could be in place?We

1:00:42 > 1:00:46need to start the planning now because driverless vehicles will be

1:00:46 > 1:00:51on UK roads within three years. It is happening at pace. We need to be

1:00:51 > 1:00:57all over it. There is a broader economic point. I do not want

1:00:57 > 1:01:04Swansea Bay to be committing that the Cardiff. We need to start

1:01:04 > 1:01:08creating a public transport system that creates viable, vibrant

1:01:08 > 1:01:12communities.That is it from me, but we are on Twitter of course. For

1:01:12 > 1:01:15now, thank

1:01:25 > 1:01:25the consensus.We will have to leave it there, back to Sarah. Welcome

1:01:25 > 1:01:27back.

1:01:27 > 1:01:31A row has erupted in the influential Brexit Select Committee of MPs.

1:01:31 > 1:01:33The majority of pro-Remain MPs on the committee, led

1:01:33 > 1:01:35by the Labour Chairman Hilary Benn, have backed a report saying

1:01:35 > 1:01:38that the Article 50 process may need to be extended,

1:01:38 > 1:01:40so that Brexit would happen later than March 2019.

1:01:40 > 1:01:43But that infuriated the minority of pro-Brexit MPs on the committee,

1:01:43 > 1:01:45who have published their own report, which says that delaying

1:01:45 > 1:01:47Brexit would not respect the referendum result.

1:01:47 > 1:01:49One of those pro-Brexit MPs on the committee, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

1:01:49 > 1:01:51said: "The majority report is the prospectus

1:01:51 > 1:01:52for the vassal state.

1:01:52 > 1:01:56It is a future not worthy of us as a country, and I am sure that

1:01:56 > 1:01:58Theresa May will rightly reject a report by the high

1:01:58 > 1:02:04priests of Remain."

1:02:06 > 1:02:09The majority report is an attempt to keep us in the EU

1:02:09 > 1:02:09by sleight of hand."

1:02:09 > 1:02:13The Committee Chairman is Labour MP Hilary Benn and he joins me now.

1:02:13 > 1:02:18Have you been called a high priest before?Many things but never a high

1:02:18 > 1:02:20Have you been called a high priest priest. He says you are trying to

1:02:20 > 1:02:22delay Brexit

1:02:22 > 1:02:24priest. He says you are trying to because you are

1:02:24 > 1:02:25priest. He says you are trying to Remainer. That's not the case, not

1:02:25 > 1:02:28about undermining the referendum result, is about the problem we

1:02:28 > 1:02:30face, there are seven months to go

1:02:30 > 1:02:32result, is about the problem we until the Article 50 negotiations

1:02:32 > 1:02:34are due to end. There

1:02:34 > 1:02:37until the Article 50 negotiations host of issues that have

1:02:37 > 1:02:37until the Article 50 negotiations been addressed. We haven't started

1:02:37 > 1:02:41negotiating our future economic relationship, what will happen to

1:02:41 > 1:02:47trade, services, 80% of the British economy's services, how will we work

1:02:47 > 1:02:47trade, services, 80% of the British together on defence, foreign policy

1:02:47 > 1:02:51and security, really important

1:02:51 > 1:02:56together on defence, foreign policy the wake of the Salisbury attack,

1:02:56 > 1:02:57cooperating on aviation safety, food

1:02:57 > 1:03:00the wake of the Salisbury attack, safety, medicines, research, and

1:03:00 > 1:03:00the wake of the Salisbury attack, question of how to keep an open

1:03:00 > 1:03:05border between Northern Ireland

1:03:05 > 1:03:06question of how to keep an open be set out by October?We didn't set

1:03:06 > 1:03:08the deadline of the sort of the the deadline of the sort of the

1:03:08 > 1:03:10negotiating process

1:03:10 > 1:03:17the deadline of the sort of the pointed out when the deal is agreed

1:03:18 > 1:03:19-- European Council. If there

1:03:19 > 1:03:23-- European Council. If there are a whole load of things that have not

1:03:23 > 1:03:23whole load of things that have not yet been negotiated the government

1:03:23 > 1:03:25could ask

1:03:25 > 1:03:27yet been negotiated the government Article 50 process and one of the

1:03:27 > 1:03:31things that we say is when David Davis came to give evidence to us,

1:03:31 > 1:03:33he said we don't want to

1:03:33 > 1:03:34Davis came to give evidence to us, negotiating really important issues

1:03:34 > 1:03:36Davis came to give evidence to us, in the transition period because the

1:03:36 > 1:03:38Davis came to give evidence to us, balance of power changes. What we

1:03:38 > 1:03:41are seeing is the best way to get are seeing is the best way to get

1:03:41 > 1:03:43the best deal for the British people is to do so when you have the

1:03:43 > 1:03:44is to do so when you have the maximum negotiating clout and that

1:03:44 > 1:03:50is during the Article 50 period. Without a hard deadline of the two

1:03:50 > 1:03:54years since triggering Article 50, the EU could just delay and delay

1:03:54 > 1:03:55years since triggering Article 50, and delay this to the point that it

1:03:55 > 1:03:59is a

1:03:59 > 1:04:00and delay this to the point that it as not leaving the EU.The body

1:04:00 > 1:04:02wants a never-ending process.

1:04:02 > 1:04:05as not leaving the EU.The body be some in the EU who wouldn't mind,

1:04:05 > 1:04:06as not leaving the EU.The body they would prefer it to a

1:04:06 > 1:04:08as not leaving the EU.The body Brexit.They might

1:04:08 > 1:04:11as not leaving the EU.The body referendum decision has

1:04:11 > 1:04:11as not leaving the EU.The body We have seen another example this

1:04:11 > 1:04:15week, Chris Grayling, the Transport Secretary, said we would

1:04:15 > 1:04:18week, Chris Grayling, the Transport to put checks on goods coming in to

1:04:18 > 1:04:21week, Chris Grayling, the Transport Dover. Knows that the customs

1:04:21 > 1:04:23week, Chris Grayling, the Transport relations are not ready so these are

1:04:23 > 1:04:23week, Chris Grayling, the Transport serious issues that face the

1:04:23 > 1:04:31country. Or the businesses I speak to so we understand how it works

1:04:31 > 1:04:34today and can you tell us how it will work tomorrow when we have left

1:04:34 > 1:04:37and the answer is we don't

1:04:37 > 1:04:39will work tomorrow when we have left because we haven't negotiated it. It

1:04:39 > 1:04:39will work tomorrow when we have left is about taking a sufficient time to

1:04:39 > 1:04:41get a decent deal. Everybody

1:04:41 > 1:04:42is about taking a sufficient time to that the detailed negotiation is

1:04:42 > 1:04:45going to take place during the transition period because you are

1:04:45 > 1:04:49not going to

1:04:49 > 1:04:51between now and October. Would you need to impose another hard deadline

1:04:51 > 1:04:57between now and October. Would you in order to keep minds focused.Not

1:04:57 > 1:05:01allow the balance of power to shift to those in the EU who could delay

1:05:01 > 1:05:03and delay if this is an open-ended

1:05:03 > 1:05:05to those in the EU who could delay and this would only happen if the

1:05:05 > 1:05:07government were to ask for it. It

1:05:07 > 1:05:10and this would only happen if the other EU 27. Of all of the other

1:05:10 > 1:05:14member states. But it is about having flexibility, remember the row

1:05:14 > 1:05:16when the government put a hard

1:05:16 > 1:05:16having flexibility, remember the row deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th

1:05:16 > 1:05:19of March? Lots of people including

1:05:19 > 1:05:21deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th Conservative said this is

1:05:21 > 1:05:22deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th sensible. When you are engaged in

1:05:22 > 1:05:24deadline of 11 o'clock on the 29th negotiation that is as complex and

1:05:24 > 1:05:26challenging as this, to

1:05:26 > 1:05:27negotiation that is as complex and absolutely hard deadline

1:05:27 > 1:05:29negotiation that is as complex and help you get the right outcome for

1:05:29 > 1:05:31the British people.There is

1:05:31 > 1:05:32help you get the right outcome for accusation from the people on your

1:05:32 > 1:05:34committee who don't agree with your

1:05:34 > 1:05:39accusation from the people on your conclusions who published

1:05:39 > 1:05:41conclusions who published this minority report, which is that you

1:05:41 > 1:05:43conclusions who published this are trying to keep

1:05:43 > 1:05:45Single Market and customs union by the back door using the Irish border

1:05:45 > 1:05:48issue to do that.

1:05:48 > 1:05:49preferred outcome that we stayed in issue to do that.

1:05:49 > 1:05:53this customs union and Single Market.It is my preferred point,

1:05:53 > 1:05:57position but they have not reached a decision in the review. The

1:05:57 > 1:06:02government set a high bar on the Irish border, it wants

1:06:02 > 1:06:03government set a high bar on the no infrastructure, and I agree. As

1:06:03 > 1:06:06things stand at the moment, because the government hasn't come forward

1:06:06 > 1:06:09things stand at the moment, because with a proposal as to how to deliver

1:06:09 > 1:06:13things stand at the moment, because that in practice, we don't see how

1:06:13 > 1:06:13things stand at the moment, because you can reconcile that objective

1:06:13 > 1:06:16with the Government's commitment to leave the Single Market and customs

1:06:16 > 1:06:20union. This will come back again and again in the negotiations until it

1:06:20 > 1:06:23is resolved. My own personal view is is resolved. My own personal view

1:06:23 > 1:06:24staying in a customs union would is resolved. My own personal view

1:06:24 > 1:06:26staying in a customs union would provide part of the answer

1:06:26 > 1:06:26staying in a customs union would keeping that border open, which is

1:06:26 > 1:06:31what everyone says they want.It is a pretty rotten state of affairs

1:06:31 > 1:06:33a pretty rotten state of affairs when your Select Committee produces

1:06:33 > 1:06:35majority and minority report

1:06:35 > 1:06:38when your Select Committee produces are clearly absolutely split on

1:06:38 > 1:06:39when your Select Committee produces principles of this.It is not

1:06:39 > 1:06:41unprecedented but I wish we

1:06:41 > 1:06:42principles of this.It is not able to reach agreement. You know

1:06:42 > 1:06:44what, the referendum showed the

1:06:44 > 1:06:46able to reach agreement. You know nation was divided down

1:06:46 > 1:06:47able to reach agreement. You know the Cabinet is divided, there are

1:06:47 > 1:06:50different views in Parliament, it's not entirely surprising that we find

1:06:50 > 1:06:53different views in Parliament, it's that reflected in the Select

1:06:53 > 1:06:54different views in Parliament, it's Committee I have the honour to be

1:06:54 > 1:06:58the chair of.Thank you, we will pick up some Brexit issues and some

1:06:58 > 1:06:59the chair of.Thank you, we will more of what will be happening with

1:06:59 > 1:07:03Brexit this week with the panel. Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a

1:07:03 > 1:07:05Isabel Oakeshott, Hilary Benn has a point, doesn't he, that his

1:07:05 > 1:07:09committee is no war split and, frankly, the Cabinet, the country or

1:07:09 > 1:07:14both political parties are on this matter?I think that is a fair

1:07:14 > 1:07:15both political parties are on this but on the substantive

1:07:15 > 1:07:16both political parties are on this recommendation about delaying Brexit

1:07:16 > 1:07:21further, I cannot see how that could possibly strengthen our position to

1:07:21 > 1:07:27have us begging for more time here. I think the one thing that I am sure

1:07:27 > 1:07:28you here, Hilary Benn, when you

1:07:28 > 1:07:31I think the one thing that I am sure on the

1:07:31 > 1:07:31I think the one thing that I am sure get on with this? People don't want

1:07:31 > 1:07:36this process to be any more elongated. If anything it just

1:07:36 > 1:07:38this process to be any more increases uncertainty for business.

1:07:38 > 1:07:44Hillary.Somebody summed this up beautifully to me the other day, for

1:07:44 > 1:07:46beautifully to me the other day, for something that is apparently so

1:07:46 > 1:07:49simple, it's really, really complicated, isn't it? Over 45 years

1:07:49 > 1:07:54we have built this network of relationships, laws, the ways

1:07:54 > 1:07:56we have built this network of businesses operate. I was at a

1:07:56 > 1:08:00conference of the creative industries on Thursday and they are

1:08:00 > 1:08:02concerned about intellectual property and broadcasting into

1:08:02 > 1:08:03concerned about intellectual Europe, and the ability of musicians

1:08:03 > 1:08:08to go on to travel. All sorts of questions people have got from a

1:08:08 > 1:08:12perfectly legitimate ones,

1:08:12 > 1:08:12questions people have got from a it is going to work and is not

1:08:12 > 1:08:14entirely surprising, whatever the frustration people feel, and I

1:08:14 > 1:08:18recognise that, it will take time to sort it out in a way that works for

1:08:18 > 1:08:20sort it out in a way that works for us. It's not about working for

1:08:20 > 1:08:22us. It's not about working for Europe, we want a deal that we can

1:08:22 > 1:08:25both agree on, but it's got

1:08:25 > 1:08:27Europe, we want a deal that we can for us and look after our interests,

1:08:27 > 1:08:30that's our job.Lucy, David Davis is

1:08:30 > 1:08:31for us and look after our interests, on his way back to Brussels

1:08:31 > 1:08:32for us and look after our interests, negotiations trying to sign off with

1:08:32 > 1:08:39Michel Barnier the transition period of the deal there. What is the issue

1:08:39 > 1:08:44that must be decided before the

1:08:44 > 1:08:44of the deal there. What is the issue the week?The main stumbling block

1:08:44 > 1:08:45is the Irish

1:08:45 > 1:08:48the week?The main stumbling block Hillary pointed out.

1:08:48 > 1:08:50the week?The main stumbling block position which goes some way to

1:08:50 > 1:08:52solving the issue, which is

1:08:52 > 1:08:56position which goes some way to remain in the customs union.A

1:08:56 > 1:08:56position which goes some way to customs union.A customs union,

1:08:56 > 1:09:00forgive me. It is hard to see how that will be established in any kind

1:09:00 > 1:09:05of technical, substantive way. We will have to rely on good to

1:09:05 > 1:09:07of technical, substantive way. We past that at

1:09:07 > 1:09:10of technical, substantive way. We understanding is there are UK fears

1:09:10 > 1:09:11of technical, substantive way. We that Dublin may receive backing from

1:09:11 > 1:09:14the Germans and French this week that will cause more problems on

1:09:14 > 1:09:18that but it is essential that the transition deal is formally agreed

1:09:18 > 1:09:21at the European Council this week

1:09:21 > 1:09:22transition deal is formally agreed for two reasons. Firstly, we need

1:09:22 > 1:09:24transition deal is formally agreed move the talks on to the trade

1:09:24 > 1:09:31agreement, we want to reach. And secondly, it

1:09:31 > 1:09:31agreement, we want to reach. And situation will be regarding the UK's

1:09:31 > 1:09:38relationship with the EU up to September 2020. This is the last

1:09:38 > 1:09:40moment UK businesses have said

1:09:40 > 1:09:42September 2020. This is the last government can wait to give firm

1:09:42 > 1:09:45signals on it before they revert

1:09:45 > 1:09:47government can wait to give firm contingency plans.Hillary talks up

1:09:47 > 1:09:49government can wait to give firm negotiating leverage and we gave our

1:09:49 > 1:09:53leveraged away when we invoked Article 50 without pre-negotiations,

1:09:53 > 1:09:53Article 50 without pre-negotiations, because we put the clock on

1:09:53 > 1:09:59ourselves. With and have two years to negotiate everything and Michel

1:09:59 > 1:10:01Barnier set the date and

1:10:01 > 1:10:04to negotiate everything and Michel then go to him to potentially

1:10:04 > 1:10:04to negotiate everything and Michel for more time and I think we have

1:10:04 > 1:10:07really put ourselves

1:10:07 > 1:10:10for more time and I think we have position by doing that.Given that

1:10:10 > 1:10:12situation, would it be better to go, situation, would it be better to go,

1:10:12 > 1:10:13in your words, begging for more in your words, begging for more

1:10:13 > 1:10:15time, or

1:10:15 > 1:10:19in your words, begging for more that people's mines are concentrated

1:10:19 > 1:10:20in your words, begging for more on getting the deal done?I think

1:10:20 > 1:10:23the deadline, the date we are supposed to be leaving,

1:10:23 > 1:10:23the deadline, the date we are the government in the withdrawal

1:10:23 > 1:10:28bill for political reasons. I think that was all performative really. I

1:10:28 > 1:10:34don't think there is is Dummigan reason why there cannot be

1:10:34 > 1:10:35don't think there is is Dummigan to. If we can

1:10:35 > 1:10:37don't think there is is Dummigan deal in the short term, there is no

1:10:37 > 1:10:42reason why we can't, as Hilary said, I now the details in the transition

1:10:42 > 1:10:45period.What other sticking points on the withdrawal agreement? It

1:10:45 > 1:10:48on the withdrawal agreement? It seems David Davis is saying this

1:10:48 > 1:10:49seems David Davis is saying this week he is relaxed about a

1:10:49 > 1:10:51transition

1:10:51 > 1:10:55week he is relaxed about a full two years, only up until

1:10:55 > 1:10:58Christmas 2021. It feels a little

1:10:58 > 1:11:00full two years, only up until bit -- not lusting for a full two

1:11:00 > 1:11:04years. When we get it is crunch decisions with the withdrawal

1:11:04 > 1:11:06years. When we get it is crunch agreement and the negotiation

1:11:06 > 1:11:07years. When we get it is crunch transition agreement, that the UK

1:11:07 > 1:11:11caves at the last minute. Where

1:11:11 > 1:11:13transition agreement, that the UK we see a win for the UK in these

1:11:13 > 1:11:13transition agreement, that the UK deadlines?Every time we get abuse

1:11:13 > 1:11:16crunch

1:11:16 > 1:11:17deadlines?Every time we get abuse Parliament try and cause us to cave.

1:11:17 > 1:11:19deadlines?Every time we get abuse That is a difficulty government has.

1:11:19 > 1:11:22deadlines?Every time we get abuse It has been undermined by its own

1:11:22 > 1:11:23deadlines?Every time we get abuse backbenchers, we have the Brexit

1:11:23 > 1:11:25committee coming up with divided

1:11:25 > 1:11:27backbenchers, we have the Brexit reports suggesting more delay. I

1:11:27 > 1:11:31think there will be massive push back on that. I don't think

1:11:31 > 1:11:32think there will be massive push happen. There is no way any

1:11:32 > 1:11:37extension of this time period is acceptable to Theresa May's

1:11:37 > 1:11:39extension of this time period is Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in

1:11:39 > 1:11:43hock, so that can't happen.

1:11:43 > 1:11:43Brexiteer MPs to whom she is in problem is, Matt, it is just going

1:11:43 > 1:11:46to expand to fill

1:11:46 > 1:11:47problem is, Matt, it is just going available. We need these deadlines,

1:11:47 > 1:11:53uncomfortable as they may be, and in an ideal world we might

1:11:53 > 1:11:53uncomfortable as they may be, and in extra days here or there to fine

1:11:53 > 1:11:57tune things, but ultimately nobody on your side of the

1:11:57 > 1:11:59tune things, but ultimately nobody going to be happy with the time

1:11:59 > 1:12:01frame. It will simply expand and

1:12:01 > 1:12:03going to be happy with the time expand and expand until the de facto

1:12:03 > 1:12:06going to be happy with the time we just stay in the.Lucy,

1:12:06 > 1:12:08going to be happy with the time any prospect, given where

1:12:08 > 1:12:10going to be happy with the time the moment waiting to sign off

1:12:10 > 1:12:11going to be happy with the time deal on the transition, that we

1:12:11 > 1:12:13going to be happy with the time have a fully comprehensive trade

1:12:13 > 1:12:18agreement in place by October to go for ratification to the European

1:12:18 > 1:12:20Parliament?I think it's looking

1:12:20 > 1:12:21for ratification to the European increasingly unlikely and

1:12:21 > 1:12:23for ratification to the European lots of things that will not be

1:12:23 > 1:12:26ready in time, today there are

1:12:26 > 1:12:26lots of things that will not be reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:26 > 1:12:28reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:28 > 1:12:28briefed on the fact that Customs and reports the Cabinet have been

1:12:28 > 1:12:30briefed on the fact that Customs and border arrangements are not going to

1:12:30 > 1:12:36be in place by Brexit day next March. There is still a lot

1:12:36 > 1:12:38be in place by Brexit day next questions around that. Going back to

1:12:38 > 1:12:39be in place by Brexit day next the question of the polarisation in

1:12:39 > 1:12:41Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the

1:12:41 > 1:12:43country over Brexit and some

1:12:43 > 1:12:44Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the positions government has put

1:12:44 > 1:12:46Parliament, in the Cabinet, in the so far, there are still so many

1:12:46 > 1:12:47so far, there are still so many questions left unanswered. Theresa

1:12:47 > 1:12:51May hasn't really filled in

1:12:51 > 1:12:51questions left unanswered. Theresa detail about what you would like to

1:12:51 > 1:12:53see with trade and customs and

1:12:53 > 1:12:56detail about what you would like to question marks over how the

1:12:56 > 1:12:57government envisages immigration

1:12:57 > 1:13:01question marks over how the working at the Brexit. A

1:13:01 > 1:13:02question marks over how the detail.Thank you to all of my

1:13:02 > 1:13:06guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel Oakeshott, Matt Zarb-Cousin is an

1:13:06 > 1:13:08guests, Lucy Fisher, Isabel Hilary Benn are still on the set.

1:13:08 > 1:13:11Join me again next Sunday at 11am here on BBC One.

1:13:11 > 1:13:14Until then, bye-bye.