:01:26. > :01:30.And in the Midlands, we are venturing where angels fear to
:01:30. > :01:34.tread by mixing politics with religion. Is it for our politicians
:01:34. > :01:44.to defend the faith? Should religion play any part in public
:01:44. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :31:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1789 seconds
:31:33. > :31:38.We are ignoring the old taboo and mixing politics with religion.
:31:38. > :31:41.Let's meet our guests, cabinet ministers past and present. Owen
:31:41. > :31:45.Paterson is the Conservative MP for Shropshire North and Northern
:31:45. > :31:53.Ireland Secretary, and Baroness Morris of Yorkley, former Estelle
:31:53. > :31:57.Morris, is a former Labour education secretary. A high level
:31:57. > :32:04.of security goes with your job. Is it working? It is very interesting,
:32:04. > :32:10.doing what I do. Picking up where Labour left off on Northern Ireland,
:32:10. > :32:14.we are particularly concentrating on the economy in a way of
:32:14. > :32:18.cementing the peace. It is an interesting and worthwhile job.
:32:18. > :32:21.very time-consuming. The question from the point of view of North
:32:21. > :32:26.Shropshire is whether they get such good value from you as a
:32:26. > :32:34.constituency MP now you have other business to attentive. On Thursday
:32:34. > :32:41.I was at a public meeting about a bypass and spent most of Friday
:32:41. > :32:48.talking on a local radio station. It needs careful planning by 19.
:32:48. > :32:52.Estelle Morris, it is nearly 10 years ago, a day we will remember
:32:52. > :32:56.very well, when he resigned as Education Secretary. At the time,
:32:56. > :33:00.this was interpreted by some sections of the press as an
:33:00. > :33:04.admission that you were not up to the job. Was that a fair assessment
:33:04. > :33:08.about what you meant to say? It was far more complicated than that. It
:33:08. > :33:11.is 10 years ago this October. I have never regretted the decision
:33:11. > :33:17.but that does not take away from the fact that I loved the job while
:33:17. > :33:21.I was there. In some ways I do miss it very much, but that decision I
:33:21. > :33:24.took 10 years ago is not one I have regretted. But it is very
:33:24. > :33:29.complicated and I have got to a stage of my life where I have
:33:29. > :33:33.stopped going over it on my mind and moved on. When you look at the
:33:33. > :33:36.challenges in education with grade inflation at the top and under-
:33:36. > :33:40.achievement at the bottom, do you think it you should have another
:33:40. > :33:45.go? It is great to be the armchair critic again. But I have had the
:33:45. > :33:49.chance and I am proud of a lot of what was achieved. Education is
:33:49. > :33:59.changing so much that I know any Secretary of State will have new
:33:59. > :34:03.challenges. Let's get on with our top story. Multi-billion pound
:34:03. > :34:07.plans to revive truck building here. One of the world's best known
:34:08. > :34:11.business families, the Hinduja family of India, are behind
:34:11. > :34:15.ambitious proposals to relocate production from Eastern Europe to
:34:15. > :34:20.North Staffordshire. Example, perhaps, of the rebalancing of the
:34:20. > :34:25.economy that ministers keep talking about.
:34:25. > :34:32.In a factory in Prague, a truck bearing the name of a town almost
:34:32. > :34:36.1000 miles from here. Longton Trucks will soon be salt by a
:34:36. > :34:40.newly-formed business in Stoke-on- Trent which has plans to transfer
:34:40. > :34:44.production to the UK as soon as next year. We want to create local
:34:44. > :34:47.employment for local people where we possibly can. We know the skills
:34:47. > :34:51.are there. There is a lot of deprivation in the West Midlands
:34:52. > :34:57.but we have this proud history and we are not ashamed to say that we
:34:57. > :35:01.want to pick it up and use it. Prague is home to the company's
:35:01. > :35:07.European operations, part of the Hinduja group. It has a long
:35:07. > :35:10.manufacturing tradition. Prague is the centre of the company's
:35:10. > :35:14.production across Europe but it is hoped that this venture will open
:35:14. > :35:18.up the UK market, which has seen strong growth. But although there
:35:18. > :35:25.is expansion in the sector, this venture comes at times when there
:35:25. > :35:28.is a call for more government help for engineering. JCB's chairman has
:35:28. > :35:34.urged the Prime Minister to champion engineering. In Prague,
:35:34. > :35:41.there is optimism for the UK market. We have seen a 30% growth, year to
:35:41. > :35:51.year, last year. We hope to see at least another 40% this year and in
:35:51. > :35:56.the UK, two years prior we sold around 300 vehicles. We had to
:35:56. > :35:59.double that figure. Longton Trucks will face stiff competition but
:35:59. > :36:05.could be an example of a resurgence in confidence in British
:36:05. > :36:07.manufacturing. Let's hope so. Owen Paterson, is
:36:08. > :36:13.that a vision of rebalancing the economy in the way that you would
:36:13. > :36:18.like to see? Absolutely. It is very exciting but it does follow on from
:36:18. > :36:24.some other real successes. Jaguar Land Rover are going well. We have
:36:24. > :36:32.the new plant near Wolverhampton. JCB are a glorious local example of
:36:32. > :36:36.real quality in intensely difficult world. Looking through the JCB
:36:36. > :36:39.chairman's report, I have to say, in places, it is pretty towns in
:36:39. > :36:47.Reading, talking about the inadequacy of the skills base that
:36:48. > :36:50.we have. Downgrading the practical qualifications that business wants
:36:51. > :36:55.is not the best way for a government, surely, to assert its
:36:55. > :36:58.commitment to manufacturing. I have not read the report in detail but I
:36:58. > :37:03.think we are in complete agreement with Sir Anthony that we want real
:37:03. > :37:07.quality qualifications. There are up over 3,000 qualifications on
:37:07. > :37:11.vocational issues which are going to be scaled down to about 125,
:37:11. > :37:15.which will have real status. We would entirely agree with him - and
:37:15. > :37:19.if you look at Michael Gove's reforms, they will deliver what he
:37:19. > :37:25.is looking for. We need a really skilled workforce in order to tempt
:37:25. > :37:30.back skilled jobs from the Czech Republic and other countries that
:37:30. > :37:34.have taken jobs from us. I could say, Estelle Morris, that the
:37:34. > :37:37.shortage of the skills is the millions that went into education,
:37:37. > :37:42.education, education in your time. What would you do about the
:37:42. > :37:49.problem? There are some really good size and I had it is not have a
:37:49. > :37:54.lower false dawn. We are building on 30 years... Batters across the
:37:54. > :37:58.political parties. I want to take up this thing about skills because
:37:58. > :38:02.every government - of all political persuasions - is trying to get
:38:02. > :38:07.skills right and we have never succeeded. The Tories did it before
:38:07. > :38:10.us, we did it through the diplomas, which have collapsed. The idea of
:38:11. > :38:18.the diplomas - we had engineering Colombe -- diplomas that have
:38:18. > :38:21.collapsed. The main thing about Michael Gove's reforms, the English
:38:21. > :38:29.Baccalaureate has not got a vocational qualification in it.
:38:29. > :38:33.That is not a good sign. I can't fail to point out that
:38:33. > :38:39.manufacturing halved under Labour. We are talking about the skill base.
:38:39. > :38:44.We are determined to rebalance the economy. We need a large financial
:38:44. > :38:49.sector but we need to expand it and that will take time to bring the
:38:49. > :38:53.businesses here, but also, I think, to the skill our workforce. That is
:38:53. > :38:57.what Michael Gove is trying to do. I am not satisfied by that because
:38:57. > :39:01.it is about culture and making young people excited about going
:39:01. > :39:06.into manufacturing. If the message coming from the Education Secretary
:39:06. > :39:11.is that academics matter and vocational subjects don't, we are
:39:11. > :39:15.not getting it right. Time now for our main talking point today. The
:39:16. > :39:23.age-old tension between politics and religion is increasing yet
:39:23. > :39:30.again with the Bishops' efforts to force the Lords on the Government's
:39:30. > :39:36.benefits cap and Baroness Warsi's attack unaggressive secularism. BBC
:39:36. > :39:39.Stokes's political reporter has been to church. -- attack on
:39:39. > :39:42.aggressive secularism. The Church of England has been at
:39:42. > :39:45.the very heart of the Establishment for hundreds of years. The bishops
:39:45. > :39:49.sit in the House of Lords and the Queen is both head of state and
:39:49. > :39:55.defender of the fate. But could do the Grand be beginning to shift? In
:39:55. > :40:00.the last few weeks, a court ruled that prayers could not be part of
:40:01. > :40:06.official council meetings. -- could the ground at the beginning to
:40:06. > :40:10.shift. We are so afraid, and rightly so, of going backwards in
:40:10. > :40:15.history to the days of one religion was imposed on people by despotic
:40:15. > :40:24.regimes. But we have got to the stage where aggressive secularism
:40:24. > :40:30.is being imposed by stealth. Politicians have often been
:40:30. > :40:35.reluctant to do God. But this local MP at judge in his constituency is
:40:35. > :40:39.not. I think having the established Church, the Church of England, a
:40:39. > :40:43.very broad church, which covers a range of beers, gives space for
:40:43. > :40:49.people of all faiths and people of none to engage in this kind of
:40:49. > :40:53.debate. What about what we have seen the last few weeks, whether
:40:53. > :40:57.bishops forced an amendment on a bill? Is that OK in a modern
:40:57. > :41:01.democracy? I think it would be very dangerous if we came to a point
:41:01. > :41:06.where faith is not allowed to intrude into the political space or
:41:06. > :41:10.vice versa. I think the bishops provide a welcome diversity in that
:41:10. > :41:14.respect. This church takes an active role in the community.
:41:15. > :41:20.have local projects on estates that are near us. Sometimes when we are
:41:20. > :41:24.asking for funding for those projects, you can hit the whole
:41:24. > :41:29.thing off, "if it is a faith based organisation, you might have a
:41:29. > :41:35.different agenda to what you say," and that is very frustrating. But
:41:35. > :41:39.that is the culture we live in. it is not at Richard Dawkins * A
:41:39. > :41:41.Pearce that think they should be a line between religion and the state.
:41:42. > :41:47.A recent poll found that three- quarters of people thought that
:41:47. > :41:50.religion should not influence policy and almost half thought that
:41:50. > :41:54.religion and state should be separate. This Birmingham
:41:54. > :41:59.councillor recently came into conflict with the City's angling --
:41:59. > :42:02.Anglican bishop. I think it would be better if the bishops and other
:42:02. > :42:04.church people concentrated on their own issues. They have falling
:42:04. > :42:11.congregations and I think they should be doing something about
:42:11. > :42:16.that. In these days of austerity, the Church might argue its moral
:42:16. > :42:20.guidance is needed now more than ever. But had to offer that
:42:20. > :42:29.guidance in an increasingly secular society is perhaps a matter of
:42:29. > :42:36.conscience. -- How ought to offer. We are joined by the Bishop of
:42:36. > :42:39.Birmingham for the last 15 years. You were one of the Lords spiritual
:42:39. > :42:46.in Parliament's opera-house. Did you feel about time that you were
:42:46. > :42:52.trespassing on the politicians' turf? I always felt that because of
:42:52. > :42:56.my office as a bishop, but I sat in the House of Lords or not, I had a
:42:56. > :43:00.proper concern for the common good and the quality of life and society.
:43:00. > :43:05.I don't think that religion impinges only on what people do for
:43:05. > :43:10.an hour and a half on Sunday morning. It is the whole of life.
:43:10. > :43:14.And moral issues involved not only people's personal lives but the way
:43:14. > :43:17.society is run. But the bishops in the House of Lords certainly
:43:17. > :43:23.impinged on government policies on benefit reform. Was that
:43:23. > :43:27.reasonable? I think it was. You have to be very careful how far you
:43:27. > :43:31.intrude into the particular areas of policy but there is no doubt, if
:43:31. > :43:36.anyone reads the Bible, that we have a proper concern for the
:43:36. > :43:39.quality of life and they risk a lot in the Bible about the
:43:39. > :43:44.responsibility for caring for the fatherless and the widow and the
:43:44. > :43:48.poor. Plenty of concern about the abuse of power and the abuse of
:43:48. > :43:52.riches. What do you make of Baroness Warsi's well reported
:43:52. > :43:56.comments about progressive secularism? Isn't that a challenge
:43:56. > :44:00.to the Church of England to get its message across more clearly to be
:44:00. > :44:10.constructive in this debate? think one can get to heated about
:44:10. > :44:13.
:44:13. > :44:20.this secularism is you. -- issue. Freedom for won his freedom for all
:44:20. > :44:30.and there is perhaps a tendency not to recognise the nature of the
:44:30. > :44:30.
:44:30. > :44:38.issues which concern people of faith, not only of Christian faith.
:44:38. > :44:41.You are an unelected peer and you formed unholy alliance. When I was
:44:41. > :44:46.a minister in the elected House of Commons, the bishops did the same
:44:46. > :44:50.to us. It is not just this occasion. That is the role of the House of
:44:50. > :44:54.Lords - to challenge legislation and question it. But is it the role
:44:54. > :44:58.of the bishops? If you take the argument that nobody who is
:44:58. > :45:02.unelected should have a say, we are all as guilty as everybody else.
:45:02. > :45:06.You should not single the bishops out and so they do not have a right
:45:06. > :45:11.to hear their views. They are entitled to give their views and
:45:11. > :45:18.they cannot tell us how to vote. There are 26 bishops but 800 Lords.
:45:18. > :45:22.We have to persuade one a two more to vote. Argue with Estelle and the
:45:22. > :45:26.bishop on this? Or do you think that the Church has quite enough
:45:26. > :45:29.business of its own to look after and in other challenges with
:45:29. > :45:33.falling numbers so that they should not intrude into politics? They
:45:33. > :45:38.have every right to speak out. I would point out that Archbishop
:45:38. > :45:42.George Carey put a totally contrary view. But I was with Sayeeda Warsi
:45:42. > :45:47.at the Vatican and I think they were quite struck when she said
:45:47. > :45:50.very firmly, "get out on the front foot and say what you believe in".
:45:50. > :45:54.The coalition government has given great opportunities for the
:45:54. > :45:59.churches. The whole Big Society is all about community groups and
:46:00. > :46:03.church groups. What educational reforms also give... A talking of
:46:03. > :46:08.education, you think of the multicultural communities in a city
:46:08. > :46:10.like Birmingham, where many Muslim families seek out faith schools. I
:46:10. > :46:13.know of a Jewish school because they prefer their ethos to what
:46:13. > :46:22.they say are the shortcomings of school where there is no faith
:46:22. > :46:27.component. In Birmingham, we have some none faith schools, and some
:46:27. > :46:32.Church of England schools, that are 90% Muslim children, so it is very
:46:32. > :46:35.complicated in an area like this. Given that the Church was one of
:46:35. > :46:38.the great founders of state education, inevitably, people of
:46:38. > :46:42.different faiths will want their opportunity to have a faith based
:46:42. > :46:46.education. It brings challenges and I am under no apprehension about
:46:46. > :46:49.that but they are things that we must talk about and face up to.
:46:50. > :46:54.there any place for the Church to be the established Church in this
:46:54. > :47:01.country, modern Britain, which as we have been hearing is a
:47:01. > :47:06.multicultural? Well, that is the question. The church is much older
:47:06. > :47:10.than the kingdom of England, let alone the United Kingdom and if I
:47:10. > :47:14.can be a bit theological on this, it can survive with or without
:47:14. > :47:20.establishment. As long as we have got it, it is something we use, and
:47:20. > :47:27.as long as we use it as something for good for the community as a
:47:27. > :47:31.hall and speak up for things that we perceive to be morally important.
:47:31. > :47:38.One final thought, I Wynn, about this question of the court ruling
:47:39. > :47:41.against prayers. I saw an interview with someone from the secular
:47:41. > :47:46.Association who said that it sends out a message that local government
:47:46. > :47:49.is a cosy club for ageing Anglicans, which has a healthy for democracy.
:47:49. > :47:53.What is your view on that? thought this was driven by a small
:47:53. > :47:59.number of people, not really representative. The vast majority
:47:59. > :48:04.of people do adhere to the views of the Church of England. It is good
:48:04. > :48:09.that we have an established church. It has been very interesting and a
:48:09. > :48:13.particular pleasure to see you in our studio, Bishop. This is the
:48:13. > :48:17.point where we have to yield to any even higher authority - the clock.
:48:17. > :48:25.It is time for our regular round-up of the political week in just 60
:48:25. > :48:30.seconds brought to us by BBC WM's breakfast presenter.
:48:30. > :48:34.Turning the Black Country green. Millions of pounds are to be spent
:48:34. > :48:38.on inner-city nature reserves. Blast furnaces once stood on this
:48:38. > :48:42.site. It cost taxpayers tens of thousands
:48:42. > :48:50.of pounds but now the fightback has begun against metal thieves
:48:50. > :48:55.stealing manhole covers. DNA Greece will leave a mark on culprits.
:48:55. > :48:59.There is a hole in the road. Motorists could fall down it and be
:48:59. > :49:05.overturned. Deaths could occur. Syrian exiles and the Midlands so
:49:05. > :49:10.they are desperate for work and their friends and family back home.
:49:10. > :49:13.This family so they are in despair. Empty houses are being put up for
:49:13. > :49:19.auction in Stoke-on-Trent. It is hoped to 200 a year could be
:49:19. > :49:27.brought back to life. And the American owners of Cadbury
:49:27. > :49:32.have opened a �70 million research centre at Bournville. -- �17
:49:32. > :49:37.million. Good news from Cadbury but at the
:49:37. > :49:39.same time, they are shedding 200 jobs here and in Wales, and the
:49:40. > :49:43.unions are saying that this research and development venture is
:49:43. > :49:47.only really valuable if it brings the jobs that go with the research
:49:47. > :49:52.that is produced. Yes, but you do need research and development to
:49:52. > :49:55.get the jobs. The two go together. I think it is a lot of the pressure
:49:55. > :49:58.that has been put on the new owners and unhappiness since the change of
:49:58. > :50:01.ownership and if this is the beginning of some investment
:50:01. > :50:07.leading to jobs, that has to be good, but the unions are right. I
:50:07. > :50:10.am not absolutely clear that that is where it will end up. There has
:50:10. > :50:15.been a great deal of unhappiness, hasn't there? Do you think people
:50:15. > :50:18.can take some reassurance from this? Yes, the fact that they are
:50:18. > :50:21.investing in high quality research jobs is very good but I agree with
:50:21. > :50:26.the start - we need to create the right conditions and provide the
:50:26. > :50:29.right workforce to make sure that manufacturing jobs stay here. I
:50:29. > :50:37.would tell everyone watching this programme, when you buy the Sunday
:50:37. > :50:45.papers, make sure you buy a cabaret bar. I do that! I am a chocolate. I
:50:45. > :50:51.don't need tenting. -- I am addicted to chocolate. I do not
:50:51. > :50:57.need to be tempted. That's it from us in the Midlands. My thanks to my