:01:41. > :01:44.And we will be travelling right across the Midlands. What do people
:01:44. > :01:47.here look for in a police commissioner? Expert opinion in
:01:47. > :01:57.each of our five force areas in conversation with our local
:01:57. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :08:32.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 395 seconds
:08:32. > :08:35.Dinny -- Debbie green leaves in the Frankly, affected by burglaries.
:08:35. > :08:40.The only reason I know it is because of me attending the
:08:40. > :08:45.meetings. I know there have been adverts on the telly. But they
:08:45. > :08:51.don't tell you a lot about the impact on communities. Not just for
:08:51. > :08:58.this one, but for others. Hundreds of police officers are losing their
:08:58. > :09:05.jobs. Our forces is cut dreaded descent from their barges. --
:09:05. > :09:15.budgets. Lord dear believe that crime commissioners must help the
:09:15. > :09:17.
:09:17. > :09:23.public have a say. The public. public have got to be involved in
:09:23. > :09:29.the discussion as to what they want to keep. There could be a doomsday
:09:29. > :09:34.scenario, where somebody from an extreme wing of any political party
:09:34. > :09:38.could win this election. Let's look at the doomsday scenario. You would
:09:38. > :09:43.hope to find a chief constable who would stand up to that and say that
:09:43. > :09:53.is not what the public want. It is a horrifying scenario and let's
:09:53. > :09:57.hope it doesn't happen. While some communities are perplexed, others
:09:57. > :10:01.want to be engaged. In Small Heath Birmingham, a mainly Muslim
:10:01. > :10:06.audience attended a crime Commissioner event that could a
:10:06. > :10:12.religious vote prove crucial? might be crucial, but the idea is
:10:12. > :10:15.not to focus on that, it is to focus on the election. But our
:10:15. > :10:22.organisation has specific access to Muslims, that is why our starting
:10:22. > :10:28.point is there. Today's event is open to all. The election's
:10:28. > :10:38.roulette wheel will soon be turning. The stakes are high. There are
:10:38. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :39:58.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 395 seconds
:39:58. > :40:01.dangers, we will have to see how it Hello again from the Midlands. I'm
:40:01. > :40:03.Patrick Burns and we'll continue this special edition of the Sunday
:40:03. > :40:05.Politics, with reaction here to Andrew Neil's interview with the
:40:05. > :40:08.Home Secretary, underlining the real significance of next month's
:40:08. > :40:10.police and crime commissioner elections. With us throughout our
:40:10. > :40:18.part of the programme are James Morris, Conservative MP for
:40:18. > :40:23.Halesowen and Rowley Regis. And Steve McCabe, the Labour MP for
:40:23. > :40:29.Birmingham Selly Oak. But we begin of course with the continuing
:40:29. > :40:32.political fallout from the Andrew Mitchell Saga. The Sutton Coldfield
:40:32. > :40:37.MP resigned as Conservative Chief Whip more than a month after that
:40:37. > :40:40.now-notorious confrontation with police in Downing Street. In his
:40:40. > :40:50.resignation letter, he repeated his denial that he used the word "pleb",
:40:50. > :40:52.
:40:52. > :40:57.but admitted using foul language. James Morris, was he right to go?
:40:57. > :41:04.He admitted he had made a serious mistake, he should not have sworn
:41:04. > :41:12.at the police. He came to the job when he was not able to death --
:41:12. > :41:17.discharge his responsibilities as chief whip. I am sorry for it, he
:41:17. > :41:25.has had long service as International Development Secretary,
:41:25. > :41:30.helping vulnerable people. But if you talk to local activists,
:41:30. > :41:36.councillors and the footsoldiers of the party, they feel they have --
:41:36. > :41:46.he has done tremendous damage to the party. Labour's lead in the
:41:46. > :41:51.polls is back-up to eight %. Andrew reflected on the circumstances and
:41:51. > :41:57.decided he could not discharge its responsibilities. He admitted he
:41:57. > :42:03.had made a serious mistake and he has paid the price. I don't
:42:03. > :42:08.remember a Labour calling for Andrew Mitchell's resignation in
:42:08. > :42:15.the early stages, it was only when the Police Federation called for it
:42:15. > :42:21.at that you call for it in May -- in an opportunistic way. This was a
:42:21. > :42:25.story that would not go away. It was not clear what had happened. It
:42:25. > :42:31.changed during the course of the week. Inevitably, there was more
:42:31. > :42:35.and more speculation. But my sense is that he had to go. The problem
:42:35. > :42:38.is that the police have lost confidence in the government and
:42:38. > :42:43.unless they can do something to repair that, and there not just
:42:43. > :42:48.talking about the Police Federation, speech to ordinary police officers,
:42:48. > :42:57.they think the police -- the government has it in for them, they
:42:57. > :43:02.have a real problem. James, it would appear at that with Andrew
:43:02. > :43:07.Neil, the Home Secretary Doug two opportunities to say that she had
:43:07. > :43:12.been calling for Andrew Mitchell's resignation. They're obviously
:43:12. > :43:15.ructions. There is no denying it has been a difficult summer for the
:43:15. > :43:21.government. But Andrew Mitchell, at the end of this week, decided he
:43:21. > :43:26.could not continue to discharge his role as chief whip. Now we need to
:43:27. > :43:30.move on. The Home Secretary also said in that interview that the
:43:30. > :43:35.reforms to the police are working because crime is coming down. It is
:43:35. > :43:44.possible to cut budgets while improving the service at the same
:43:44. > :43:48.time. Yes, she may rue that comment. We are only partly through the
:43:48. > :43:56.second year of cuts so it is premature to say everything is rosy.
:43:56. > :44:03.We have not yet seen at what the tensions for police constables will
:44:03. > :44:07.be when chief constables and commissioners are making demands.
:44:07. > :44:13.The reality is that crime is falling. Despite the cuts and the
:44:13. > :44:18.pressures, there are more police on the front line. Labour's position
:44:18. > :44:28.is hypocritical, they say they are imposing -- are posing the cuts but
:44:28. > :44:28.
:44:28. > :44:34.would impose cuts. The government could talk to the police about a
:44:34. > :44:38.range of issues, you say, really? Their relationship is at an all-
:44:38. > :44:46.time low. It is important to maintain a dialogue with the
:44:46. > :44:56.federation. But we need to modernise the police force and put
:44:56. > :45:00.new processes in place to improve effectiveness. Steve. Ordinary rank
:45:00. > :45:07.and file officers have lost government in the government. I
:45:07. > :45:12.think it is a mistake to assume everything is fine. -- rank and
:45:12. > :45:17.file officers have lost confidence in the government. It is not a
:45:17. > :45:22.healthy way to proceed. If you ask any of the public what they think,
:45:22. > :45:25.they are terrified of the risk of crime rising. Thank you.
:45:25. > :45:28.In today's programme, our BBC local radio political reporters take us
:45:28. > :45:31.on a journey across the Midlands, speaking to people with a point of
:45:31. > :45:33.view on next month's police and crime commissioner elections,
:45:34. > :45:39.heralding the biggest-ever shake-up in our police service. Let's hope
:45:39. > :45:49.we can make it all a little clearer. The first of our two tours of duty
:45:49. > :45:56.
:45:56. > :46:00.Power to the people. That is what the government wants to give you in
:46:00. > :46:04.the running of your police force. The new police and crime
:46:04. > :46:09.commissioner will have the ultimate power to hire and fire the chief
:46:09. > :46:15.constable. Here in Gloucester, the chief constable was so concerned
:46:15. > :46:19.about these elections, he walked. The county has been run by an
:46:19. > :46:23.acting chief constable since Tony Melville's resignation six months
:46:23. > :46:29.ago. Does his predecessor think other police chiefs are just as
:46:29. > :46:33.concerned? I think that we have seen that the police and crime
:46:33. > :46:38.commissioners have the ability to interfere subtly in the corridors
:46:38. > :46:44.of power. Not overtly, but to drop hints and influence chief
:46:44. > :46:47.constables that way about specific issues. It is a danger and make
:46:47. > :46:52.compromise their independence. Above all, the government says that
:46:52. > :46:56.next month's elections will make the police more accountable to the
:46:56. > :47:02.communities they serve. Critics say the influence of unelected
:47:02. > :47:10.politician is something we should all be concerned about. -- of an
:47:10. > :47:15.elected politician. The job of the bobby on the beat is as relevant
:47:15. > :47:20.today as it has always been. To prevent crime and disorder. Do they
:47:20. > :47:24.think that this will change when police commissioners are elected.
:47:24. > :47:32.These elections come at a time when budgets are being cut, working
:47:32. > :47:36.practices changed, and pensions being cut. The rank and file
:47:36. > :47:40.describe this as the perfect storm. The reason that we have the best
:47:40. > :47:47.police service in the world is that it is independent without political
:47:47. > :47:56.influence. One of anxieties is about we will now -- politics will
:47:56. > :48:01.not be -- politics will now become a part of policing. The police
:48:01. > :48:09.commissioners, who pledged to reduce crime, cannot do it without
:48:09. > :48:14.the help of their rank and file police officers. The police
:48:14. > :48:17.commissioner is intended to be the voice of the community. Somebody
:48:17. > :48:24.you can go to to share your fears about crime and they are supposed
:48:24. > :48:28.to offer support to victims. Russia -- in rural Warwickshire,
:48:28. > :48:32.this farm help set up a Neighbourhood Watch scheme after
:48:32. > :48:37.neighbours were targeted by arsonist. It is exactly the sort of
:48:37. > :48:42.community which aid commissioner would want to work with. What you
:48:42. > :48:47.want from the commissioner? I would want him to understand how to work
:48:47. > :48:51.with people like us? Police can't be everywhere. We have to work in
:48:51. > :48:55.partnership and have intelligence from the police to help us. That's
:48:55. > :49:01.why things like farm watch are good. It is about feeding information
:49:01. > :49:05.back and forth with the police. government wants to change the way
:49:05. > :49:09.we interact with the police. It hopes the role of directly elected
:49:09. > :49:16.commissioners will change the face of our local forces once and for
:49:16. > :49:19.We'll be visiting our remaining force areas in a minute or two.
:49:19. > :49:22.We're also joined here today by John Hemming, MP for Birmingham
:49:22. > :49:25.Yardley and the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the West
:49:25. > :49:31.Midlands. You are fielding candidates in only
:49:31. > :49:37.two of the five force areas in our part of the world. Call yourself a
:49:37. > :49:44.national party? It's a question of deciding whether you want to put up
:49:44. > :49:54.a candidate,... And she covered for your party in our area. Sometimes,
:49:54. > :49:57.the local party thinks they want to vote for an independent. I think
:49:57. > :50:01.the old Watch Committee was a better balance because it had a
:50:01. > :50:05.balance of judicial influence without having this all-
:50:05. > :50:10.encompassing power within policing itself. I am sure that ideally, you
:50:10. > :50:14.would like to see a Royal Commission on policing. I thought
:50:14. > :50:18.you politicians did that when there was a tricky problem. I think one
:50:18. > :50:24.of the issues, you have to look at policing as a role and what to
:50:24. > :50:30.expect from the police. This is a personal view, not a party view.
:50:30. > :50:38.laugh personal views! I'm not saying anyone supports it, but in a
:50:38. > :50:42.uniform jobber can you really expect somebody at 68 to be running
:50:42. > :50:50.around the street catching criminals? Some people can but it
:50:50. > :50:54.is a demanding job. Issues like, for instance, to what extent can
:50:54. > :50:59.you expect the police to drop everything because something has
:50:59. > :51:03.happened and not be compensated financially? In a word or two, do
:51:03. > :51:09.you think people are sufficiently aware of these issues that you are
:51:09. > :51:15.talking about in order to make an informed decision? Those issues are
:51:15. > :51:18.to do with the Windsor report, they are not part of the PCC election.
:51:18. > :51:24.But do you think people are able to take part in a sensible, practical
:51:24. > :51:28.way? One of the difficulties is a question of what exactly the police
:51:28. > :51:36.and crime commissioner can do differently? Given that there are
:51:36. > :51:40.pressures on the police locally, it is a complex issue. In the interest
:51:40. > :51:44.of increased accountability, you are introducing an election which
:51:44. > :51:49.has low Elek -- low turnout and low engagement, it is the ultimate
:51:49. > :51:55.irony? It is an important innovation in local democracy. It
:51:55. > :51:58.gives people an accountable. To hold the police to account. When
:51:58. > :52:03.people start to understand the significance of the decision they
:52:03. > :52:08.will be voting about, we will see a lot more interest in the elections.
:52:08. > :52:14.The role of the police and crime commissioner will be vital for
:52:14. > :52:18.setting the strategic direction of the police in the West Midlands.
:52:18. > :52:24.Steve, interest will Pickup as the campaign goes on? At least the
:52:24. > :52:31.government is having a go? You can't defend the status quo,
:52:31. > :52:36.surely? I am not, I think the elections are going to be difficult.
:52:36. > :52:41.You wouldn't choose November and you wouldn't pick an alien voting
:52:41. > :52:45.system. I gather the electoral commission is going to be putting
:52:45. > :52:53.brochures in to every household? The sure that will be helpful. But
:52:53. > :52:58.there is a problem. The government has moved closer to a position.
:52:58. > :53:02.They're talking about commissioners having responsibility for victims
:53:02. > :53:06.of and that is healthier than the narrow management role of the
:53:06. > :53:13.police that they were talking about when the legislation went into
:53:13. > :53:18.Parliament originally. So there are things, once the commissioners are
:53:18. > :53:28.over the initial problems, there are -- there is a lot of potential.
:53:28. > :53:30.
:53:30. > :53:34.I have income -- impressed with our candidate in the West Midlands.
:53:34. > :53:37.Thank you very much. Now for the second of our journeys
:53:37. > :53:39.with our BBC local radio political reporters who've been visiting the
:53:39. > :53:42.Midlands five police force areas, holding police and crime
:53:42. > :53:52.commissioner elections next month. We'll end in the West Midlands, but,
:53:52. > :53:58.
:53:58. > :54:02.before that, we're off to One of the consistent arguments of
:54:02. > :54:08.these elections is, I'll be playing politics with the police? Should
:54:08. > :54:13.politics be kept out of policing, or, are the two and possible to
:54:13. > :54:16.separate? Here at Keele University, they might have the answer. In
:54:16. > :54:20.spite of there being independent candidates, the majority of those
:54:20. > :54:24.standing as candidates are from a political background. It turns out
:54:24. > :54:34.the words police and politics are more closely linked than we might
:54:34. > :54:38.have thought. It is very difficult to remove the influence of politics
:54:38. > :54:42.because policing is inherently political. It is the about the
:54:42. > :54:47.distribution of power, who was police for and who is police
:54:47. > :54:51.against? I also don't think it would be desirable to remove
:54:51. > :55:00.politics from policing. It is very important that police are overseen
:55:00. > :55:03.in a normal democratic way. PCCs will have to swear an oath of a
:55:03. > :55:13.partiality but in spite of that there is concern that some of them
:55:13. > :55:16.
:55:16. > :55:20.Whoever gets the job of policing -- police and crime commissioner in
:55:20. > :55:26.the West Midlands will be running the biggest force outside London.
:55:26. > :55:30.Crime rates here are just below the national average and when the PCCs
:55:30. > :55:34.draws up their plans, they will have a duty to consult with victims
:55:34. > :55:38.of crime. But there is a way -- there is a thought that red tape
:55:38. > :55:43.gets in the wake of police a meeting with the public. What
:55:43. > :55:47.advice would you give to whoever gets the job? I would be asking
:55:47. > :55:52.them to learn from hour nearly 40 years of experience of dealing with
:55:52. > :55:58.victims, come to us for advice, users for advisory groups and open
:55:58. > :56:02.forums for victims and listen to what we have learnt. The police
:56:02. > :56:07.commissioner here in the West Midlands it will be paid �100,000 a
:56:07. > :56:10.year. That is the higher salary in the country and the verdict on what
:56:10. > :56:20.they do will be decided at the ballot box. Elections will take
:56:20. > :56:22.
:56:22. > :56:26.place once every four years. It comes through in the film that
:56:26. > :56:33.there will be a clear line of accountability from the police to
:56:33. > :56:38.the community. You think of the riots last year, who did the go to?
:56:38. > :56:44.To be fair, I think that Birmingham handle the right situation very
:56:44. > :56:50.well. I think the police, the police society and local
:56:50. > :56:57.communities.... But there was no instant authority upfront. There
:56:57. > :57:06.are problems with moving towards this model. If there are local
:57:06. > :57:09.crime panels, if victims were given a high priority, as well as the
:57:09. > :57:13.narrow management of police, we could end up with a better
:57:13. > :57:20.situation. But it is early days and the risk is that we have one person
:57:20. > :57:25.trying to control the West Midlands. You are one of the architects of
:57:25. > :57:31.localism in the West Midlands. This is a question from if you are, I
:57:31. > :57:41.don't remember voting on the weather to have a PCC. So people
:57:41. > :57:41.
:57:41. > :57:51.have no choice about whether they have won, it is a top-down
:57:51. > :57:55.situation. You make the point that in the riots, there was nobody who
:57:55. > :58:03.people could hold to account. It is important to hold -- to make a
:58:03. > :58:13.difference between strategic deaf stashed strategic role and what the
:58:13. > :58:13.
:58:13. > :58:18.police do. The Conservative candidate has been a very clear
:58:18. > :58:21.about what his priorities are. He does not come from a policing
:58:21. > :58:25.establishment and has not sat on the police of Faherty, but I think
:58:25. > :58:32.that is a refreshing thing. There are some fundamental questions in
:58:32. > :58:36.all of this about the legitimacy of the police in general. Are there
:58:36. > :58:44.some answers here? Could this goes some way towards solving that
:58:44. > :58:48.question? Well, the Lib Dem candidate is a criminal barrister
:58:48. > :58:53.who understands how the system works. If you know that, it you --
:58:53. > :58:57.you can make it work better. But there are tensions between the Home
:58:57. > :59:02.Office and in terms of statute and the court and tensions locally.
:59:02. > :59:05.Those are difficult issues to resolve. I think the simplistic
:59:05. > :59:10.idea that we have one person to talk to is not necessarily the
:59:10. > :59:18.answer when the executive decision- making is all over the shop. Very
:59:18. > :59:23.quick word, will turnouts include a little? Yes, I think as people
:59:23. > :59:28.begin to see the importance of these elections. I think it will be
:59:28. > :59:31.difficult. That is where we have to leave it.
:59:31. > :59:33.My thanks to James Morris, Steve McCabe, and John Hemming. With the
:59:33. > :59:36.news of Andrew Mitchell's resignation we haven't even had
:59:37. > :59:39.sixty seconds for 60 Seconds, but you can watch it online on your BBC