:36:02. > :36:05.Hello again from the Midlands. I'm Patrick Burns and this is one of
:36:05. > :36:09.those weeks where we make some space for an independent
:36:09. > :36:13.perspective on the political challenges facing our part of the
:36:13. > :36:16.country. We are joined today by the environmentalists Jonathon Porritt,
:36:16. > :36:22.who lives in Cheltenham and is now the Chancellor of Keele University
:36:22. > :36:25.in Staffordshire. And welcome to Caroline Spelman, former
:36:25. > :36:31.Environment Secretary and Conservative MP for Meridien. This
:36:31. > :36:33.comes after a week in which the Birmingham MP Lady M -- Gisela
:36:33. > :36:40.Stuart became the first senior Labour politician to declare
:36:40. > :36:45.publicly that Britain will inevitably leave the EU, and six
:36:45. > :36:53.Midlands Conservative MPs voted against the government to demand a
:36:54. > :36:57.cut in our EU contributions. Is she right? No, I don't agree with her.
:36:57. > :37:03.Midlands manufacturers and those that are very keen to export, I
:37:03. > :37:08.often point out that 48% of what we export goes to EU countries and 51%
:37:08. > :37:13.of what we import comes from those countries. So why would you want to
:37:13. > :37:17.the outside that customs union and possibly pay tariffs ducks for your
:37:17. > :37:23.goods? Same question to you, because the mood is changing, isn't
:37:23. > :37:29.it? I DEC think it is changing. I figured has been against for a very
:37:29. > :37:35.long time because the pro-Europeans have made an appallingly bad case.
:37:35. > :37:39.Gisela Stuart is right and that she has pointed to this disconnect. I
:37:39. > :37:44.don't think it would be very clever for the UK to be planning a
:37:44. > :37:48.departure from the EU. In due course, there may be a two-tier
:37:48. > :37:54.Europe and have one of those tears is all about fiscal integration and
:37:54. > :37:57.regulatory control, then the UK may choose to be in the second tear.
:37:58. > :38:01.think her point is that events currently unfolding in Europe will
:38:01. > :38:04.inevitably lead to Britain leaving the EU because she thinks
:38:05. > :38:08.politicians need to play catch-up with the public who want an open
:38:08. > :38:14.debate. It is one of those things whether voters actually have been
:38:14. > :38:19.years ahead of the politicians, virtually since Maastricht. Neither
:38:19. > :38:22.of the big political parties have spoken honestly about the pros and
:38:22. > :38:25.cons and the very nuanced ways they should be going. I think both
:38:25. > :38:29.parties need to be much clearer about what the relationship should
:38:29. > :38:35.be and that knowledge that within the eurozone, it is a deeper
:38:35. > :38:40.political integration. She is not the only one. The West Midlands
:38:40. > :38:44.Independent MEP has now set up a party to demand a referendum. There
:38:44. > :38:47.are plenty who want to get ahead of the curve. That is true but I feel
:38:47. > :38:53.that once people really get a chance to think about the benefits
:38:54. > :38:58.from our membership of the EU, not least the environmental benefits...
:38:58. > :39:01.If it weren't for the EU over the last 20 years, I can be sure you
:39:01. > :39:05.are environmental policy would be in a sorry state. You in the Tory
:39:05. > :39:10.party have your own is used with it, with six Midlands MPs among those
:39:10. > :39:16.rebels who defied your government to vote for a cut in Britain's a EU
:39:16. > :39:20.budget contributions. Britain needs to move away from an emotional
:39:20. > :39:23.debate. Of course we're irritated by unnecessary regulation. Those
:39:23. > :39:28.are emotional reactions to this much more hard-headed question of
:39:28. > :39:33.what British business needs. Do we need to be inside the customs union,
:39:33. > :39:37.where we can freely export goods to those markets and succeed as a
:39:37. > :39:41.trading nation, or do we want to be outside and pay the cost of that?
:39:41. > :39:46.The crunch will come with the vote on that EU budget itself. It is
:39:46. > :39:49.going to be a troublesome moment for the coalition. What of the
:39:49. > :39:54.things the rebels did not understand is that we are now just
:39:55. > :40:00.one country a Munster 27 countries of the EU and 16 countries are net
:40:00. > :40:10.gainers from the budget so we are not indeed majority. -- among 27
:40:10. > :40:11.
:40:11. > :40:15.countries. We will see what happens. Coming up: He in Gloucester, and
:40:15. > :40:19.nuclear power firm was sold this week for �700 million.
:40:19. > :40:25.For decades, the Midlands has been at the forefront of nuclear
:40:25. > :40:29.research. Art years of effort about to come to fruition?
:40:29. > :40:33.If we are to have a dynamic economy, this part of the country must be at
:40:33. > :40:38.the forefront of delivering it. That was essentially the message of
:40:38. > :40:42.Lord Heseltine's report on the growth strategy, or lack thereof.
:40:42. > :40:46.He told an audience at Birmingham Town Hall that Whitehall needed to
:40:46. > :40:52.break the habit of its lifetime and hand over power and money to the
:40:52. > :40:57.regions. BBC WM's political reporter and Elizabeth Glinka Has
:40:57. > :41:02.details. Tars and untainted. Even after 40
:41:02. > :41:06.years, the man he once held government's was powerful levers is
:41:06. > :41:10.now trying to go wide or to give some of the way to local decision-
:41:10. > :41:14.makers. He is playing the regional regeneration game one more time,
:41:14. > :41:17.aged 79. It is trying to persuade people who are themselves excellent
:41:17. > :41:22.that there is a tail of underperforming and that is
:41:22. > :41:25.dreading the national average down. With beefed-up powers for the
:41:25. > :41:29.chamber of commerce, local business and local governments, there would
:41:29. > :41:33.be a share of �50 million of one single fund instead of the current
:41:33. > :41:36.tangle of government schemes. What about a Cabinet minister for
:41:37. > :41:41.regional capital? Birmingham should be run by people in Birmingham even
:41:41. > :41:44.if it is the Labour Party rather than somebody nationally. And in
:41:44. > :41:48.Redditch, Lord Heseltine was not winning friends of the district
:41:48. > :41:52.council. He would replace tears of local government with single
:41:52. > :41:57.authorities. I do not agree with that idea at all. District counties
:41:57. > :42:01.are wonderful things. We are small but being small, we can react to
:42:01. > :42:05.local needs. But Heseltine is determined it is our great cities
:42:05. > :42:09.that can drive their recovery. Birmingham's town hall is a symbol,
:42:09. > :42:16.he says, of its nineteenth-century leadership and he is convinced it
:42:16. > :42:21.is time to do it all over again. Jonathon Porritt, you have been a
:42:21. > :42:24.great campaigner for a sustainable economy. Do you think that Michael
:42:24. > :42:29.Heseltine's idea of moving everything into a single �50
:42:29. > :42:35.billion pot rather than having lots of separate government schemes is a
:42:35. > :42:39.good trick? It makes a lot of sense. As long as that big fund has
:42:39. > :42:44.sustainability criteria at its heart. If we can get back to this
:42:45. > :42:49.idea of big cities and city regions as the driver of prosperity in
:42:49. > :42:52.England, I think we will see a lot of change on the ground. The
:42:53. > :42:59.sadness is, this government got rid of the regional development
:42:59. > :43:03.agencies. I was on the South West Regional Development Agency for
:43:04. > :43:07.years and it was doing a good job. It is implicit in what Michael
:43:07. > :43:12.Heseltine is saying, is it not, that the government made a mistake
:43:12. > :43:16.by getting rid of them? Well, the government gave the people in their
:43:16. > :43:23.own backyard the decision about which region they wanted to be part
:43:23. > :43:26.of. The local economic partnerships are the local choice for how you
:43:26. > :43:30.want to be configured with other local authorities, so we have a
:43:30. > :43:34.local economic partnership - which is very successful - hearing
:43:34. > :43:40.Birmingham, which cover Solihull. Michael Heseltine said a really
:43:40. > :43:44.important thing which has to be sustainable, rebalancing the
:43:44. > :43:48.economy to spread the effect of London out into the regions, so we
:43:48. > :43:51.have a more sustainable economy, is the right thing. But you know how
:43:51. > :43:54.possessive the mandarins of Whitehall and cabinet ministers are
:43:55. > :44:01.about their power and their money. Is it feasible they will give so
:44:02. > :44:07.much extra clout to regions like this? Speaking for the department
:44:07. > :44:14.that I used to run, DEFRA, local government is the key development
:44:14. > :44:23.agency - agreed to live free agency for DEFRA. -- of the key delivery
:44:23. > :44:28.agency for DEFRA. What do you feel about this idea of scrapping
:44:28. > :44:33.district councils, where there is a two-tier system? I think that is a
:44:33. > :44:36.bit of a red herring, to be honest. What the strongest point of this
:44:36. > :44:39.report is is that we need to build up the big cities. They are the
:44:39. > :44:42.real drivers of prosperity. We don't need to get rid of district
:44:42. > :44:47.councils because they are a guarantor of local accountability
:44:47. > :44:50.and democracy. The two can live well together. Little what has been
:44:50. > :44:55.happening in Manchester and elsewhere. There is a model that
:44:55. > :44:59.could work very well. Maybe you don't really need a regional growth
:44:59. > :45:02.plan when you can just build nuclear power stations. This past
:45:02. > :45:07.week has seen the sale of the Gloucester nuclear research firm
:45:07. > :45:13.Horizon for almost �700 million. Its new Japanese owners want the
:45:13. > :45:17.firm to build up to six reactors and two sides, creating 12,000 jobs,
:45:17. > :45:23.but who said, "I am staggered how many people think there is a role
:45:23. > :45:27.for nuclear power in the UK"? Jonathon Porritt, of course. Our
:45:27. > :45:33.Environment Correspondent examines the Midlands' contribution to the
:45:33. > :45:40.nuclear industry. It has been uncertain few months
:45:40. > :45:45.for Horizon in Gloucestershire but this week, finely some good news. -
:45:45. > :45:52.- finally. Bought by Hitachi, the company's plans for new UK power
:45:52. > :45:57.stations look much will likely to become reality now. We would expect
:45:57. > :46:07.to complete the licensing process in the next four years, which will
:46:07. > :46:09.
:46:09. > :46:13.enable us to bring the plant online in the early 2020s. His optimism is
:46:13. > :46:18.shared by this university. This new nuclear development that is
:46:18. > :46:26.supposed be happening in the UK seems to have stalled. Horizon was
:46:26. > :46:29.a big consortium which stalled but with Hitachi coming in it is good
:46:29. > :46:35.news. The University of Birmingham was there at the start of the
:46:35. > :46:42.nuclear age. It has already been made in Britain at Birmingham
:46:42. > :46:46.University, birthplace of... the university is continuing to
:46:46. > :46:54.train the engineers and scientists nuclear power needs. But until
:46:54. > :46:57.recently, it seemed that those studying now would be involved in
:46:57. > :47:01.decommissioning existing facilities rather than creating new ones.
:47:01. > :47:07.you had come to see me 10 years ago, the number of students on the
:47:07. > :47:11.course would have been around 10. We are up to 50 and 60 now. There
:47:11. > :47:16.is huge interest in this area in terms of graduate employment. It is
:47:16. > :47:19.one of the few areas you can almost guarantee getting a job in.
:47:19. > :47:23.reason for Hitachi looking to expand in the UK is a sudden lack
:47:23. > :47:32.of interest in Japan after the for consumer disaster. But after
:47:32. > :47:42.Fukushima, something interesting happened. Despite the Japanese
:47:42. > :47:44.
:47:44. > :47:47.disaster, as an environmentalist, and in... Nuclear power has always
:47:47. > :47:52.flatters to deceive and broken his promises. It is a dangerous,
:47:52. > :47:59.expensive diversion from what we should really be doing, and that is
:47:59. > :48:02.developing far more efficient energy. And also revamping of the
:48:02. > :48:07.investments in renewables. Those who support nuclear powers to worry
:48:07. > :48:12.about the future. If the government Mrs upon this, and gets the
:48:12. > :48:16.economic conditions are wrong, no company or utility will build
:48:16. > :48:21.nuclear power stations in the UK. So will these Birmingham students
:48:21. > :48:26.find work decommissioning old nuclear power plants, or will they
:48:26. > :48:31.built a new generation of nuclear power stations?
:48:31. > :48:39.This is against the background of a recent warning by the regulator
:48:39. > :48:41.Ofgem that the lights Rubika be about to go out. -- really could be.
:48:41. > :48:45.We are joined by Professor Sir Michael Stirling, who chairs the
:48:45. > :48:50.Science and Technology Facilities Council and is a member of the
:48:50. > :48:53.Prime Minister's Council for Science and Technology, and was for
:48:53. > :48:56.eight years Vice Chancellor of the University of Birmingham. That
:48:56. > :48:59.university as a lot of investment in those students. Do you think
:48:59. > :49:05.they could be working in new nuclear power stations,
:49:05. > :49:09.realistically? I certainly do and I think they have made a very wise
:49:09. > :49:12.choice. As the report illustrated, the numbers during the difficult
:49:12. > :49:16.years were only five or six students per year. The university
:49:16. > :49:20.stayed with it because we thought that inevitably, nuclear power
:49:20. > :49:24.would come back on the agenda. That was a postgraduate course. There is
:49:24. > :49:31.also now an undergraduate course which is attracting interest from
:49:31. > :49:34.prospective students. There are, though, still fundamental worries -
:49:34. > :49:38.obviously the environmental question, five radioactive waste -
:49:38. > :49:43.and also the cost. We never really seemed to get a handle on the true
:49:43. > :49:46.cost. In terms of the recent announcement, it was be better to
:49:46. > :49:50.have another player in the nuclear field because of one has a monopoly
:49:50. > :49:54.supplier, prices tend to be higher. I am pleased to see somebody else
:49:54. > :49:57.confirming they are likely to build new nuclear plants. We have got to
:49:57. > :50:02.remember that the system needs based Loaded generation so unless
:50:02. > :50:07.we have that, we are heading for a difficult future. Do you really
:50:07. > :50:11.think the lights might go out? Absolutely. There is a gap between
:50:11. > :50:18.the phasing out of the old conventional powers... Yes, and
:50:18. > :50:24.there are two reasons. We normally operate between 10 and 20% and the
:50:24. > :50:28.margin for error on forecasting load is much less. When we look
:50:28. > :50:33.forward to 2020, there is a lot of very able renewables in the system
:50:33. > :50:37.- in excess of 20%. As yet, nobody has done studies as to how the
:50:37. > :50:41.system is going to be controlled so that lights could indeed go out.
:50:41. > :50:46.You mentioned renewables. It has got to be a mix which could involve
:50:46. > :50:49.renewables, as well. Certainly. My view is that nuclear would be part
:50:49. > :50:53.of the next but one has to find a way of dealing with the new
:50:53. > :50:57.consumer loads, which are electric vehicles and electric heat pumps.
:50:57. > :51:02.Those are major load pattern changes and of the generation side,
:51:02. > :51:05.we have got variable renewables. If they are constant renewables, it is
:51:05. > :51:11.easier. Or when they are variable, the matching of the load of the
:51:11. > :51:14.generation is critical. Sir Michael is certainly one person who,
:51:14. > :51:22.despite what you say, believes that Nuclear has a future. Lots of
:51:22. > :51:26.people do, still, including some environmentalists. Idea going to
:51:26. > :51:32.change your mind? Absolutely no chance whatsoever and I think you
:51:32. > :51:35.will find that George on beer will change his mind back. It is an
:51:35. > :51:39.entirely misguided proposition that has been developed. You heard from
:51:39. > :51:44.the advocates that it will take three or four Machrie years to get
:51:44. > :51:50.permits for this new reactor. Nothing will be designed until the
:51:50. > :51:54.first half of the new decade. The cost increases all the time. These
:51:54. > :51:58.reactors start at an asking price of 7 billion and when Martin freer
:51:58. > :52:02.said at the end that is still might not happen if the government gets
:52:02. > :52:10.it wrong, what he meant was that of the government does not put enough
:52:10. > :52:14.of our money on the table. That is what he meant. What do you say to
:52:14. > :52:18.those students we saw? Sir Michael Briggs they have a rosy future.
:52:18. > :52:22.is possible they might get jobs in India or China, which will build
:52:22. > :52:26.new reactors. It is absolutely unlikely they will find any new
:52:26. > :52:30.jobs here apart from getting rid of the old nuclear programme.
:52:30. > :52:33.Birmingham University has made the right choice because both Labour
:52:33. > :52:37.and Conservatives are committed to new nuclear. The mistake was the
:52:37. > :52:41.last government prevaricating for a decade, which has put us a very
:52:41. > :52:45.exposed position. It is often said about politicians that you are
:52:45. > :52:50.notoriously short-termist. We know your government is in for five
:52:50. > :52:55.years only. Can you see beyond the end of your nose as? We are taking
:52:55. > :53:04.long-term decisions all the time. In relation to the energy mix and
:53:04. > :53:06.in relation to high-speed railways. It is not a fossil fuel. 75% of the
:53:07. > :53:13.energy makes today is a fossil fuel, which aggravates the climate change
:53:13. > :53:15.issue. No doubt that is what has changed George's position. All the
:53:15. > :53:19.options for Energy have their pros and cons but nuclear offers the
:53:19. > :53:26.prospect of a non-fossil fuel, in conjunction with renewables. They
:53:26. > :53:31.are all in the next. And, of course, the Japanese Hitachi think there is
:53:31. > :53:35.an investment worth making. Guess why? They are never going to build
:53:35. > :53:38.another reactor in Japan because Japan has said it has want any more.
:53:38. > :53:44.Germany has said it doesn't want any more. Many countries have
:53:44. > :53:47.decided they can make... And France. France has not committed to a new
:53:47. > :53:52.nuclear programme. It is committed to extending the lifetime of
:53:52. > :53:58.nuclear reactors, which is why EDF is so keen to build reactors in the
:53:58. > :54:02.UK. Wait and see what happens. As soon as we get our heads around the
:54:02. > :54:05.benefits of efficiency plus renewables Coppell's storage of
:54:05. > :54:09.which you completely failed to mention even though your erstwhile
:54:09. > :54:12.university is doing some very good... He thinks those post
:54:12. > :54:16.graduates will have to go to the Far East if they have a future, or
:54:16. > :54:23.they will be decommissioning. far as his point of storage is
:54:23. > :54:26.concerned, if we can develop high- capacity storage, that leaves
:54:26. > :54:30.things in a better place but while we have not got those technologies,
:54:30. > :54:36.we are going to need to be able could to control the king seemed a
:54:36. > :54:40.load. The concept of smart grades. -- we need to be able to control
:54:40. > :54:44.the consumer load. We have not yet done the work to see how we will
:54:44. > :54:47.control the system. That is why I am concerned about how the overall
:54:47. > :54:52.power system is going to work, irrespective of the mix that we are
:54:53. > :54:57.going to have. We will have plenty of time to talk about this again
:54:57. > :55:03.but today, I'm afraid we have run out of it. Thank you for being with
:55:03. > :55:10.Now to our round-up of some of the rest of the political news in the
:55:10. > :55:14.Midlands in just 60 seconds. It comes from BBC Hereford and
:55:14. > :55:17.Worcester's Breakfast presenter. Bad news for Midlands jobs. More
:55:17. > :55:20.than 150 are going at the Coventry firm that makes London Taxis.
:55:20. > :55:22.That's over half the workforce. The firm is in administration.
:55:23. > :55:32.Meanwhile in Wolverhampton, 500 jobs are at risk as Tarmac says
:55:33. > :55:34.
:55:34. > :55:37.it's closing its head office. constituency is already in the top
:55:37. > :55:40.10 in the whole country for unemployment so this is the last
:55:40. > :55:42.thing we need. A council's apologised to an 82-year-old widow
:55:42. > :55:45.after accusing her of fly-tipping. Her gardener cleared leaves from
:55:45. > :55:51.the lawn to the side of the road. Stratford Council's given Barbara
:55:51. > :55:53.Ray a year's supply of green bags. And the region had visits from two
:55:53. > :55:55.Cabinet Ministers. Foreign Secretary William Hague was at
:55:55. > :55:59.Birmingham's main hospital to visit Malala, the teenager from Pakistan
:55:59. > :56:02.shot in the head by the Taliban. While Environment Secretary Owen
:56:02. > :56:12.Paterson was in Cannock to launch a ban on imports of ash trees. The
:56:12. > :56:16.
:56:16. > :56:19.deadly dieback disease is I think this ash dieback disease is
:56:19. > :56:23.a surprise to most people over the last few days but when you were
:56:23. > :56:28.Environment Secretary, how much did you know about it and what did you
:56:28. > :56:33.do? It was one of the disease is that we had on a list of threats to
:56:33. > :56:38.the native trees here, which are very precious. We are seeing the
:56:38. > :56:44.increasing incidence of exotic tree diseases so we launched a tree
:56:44. > :56:54.health action plan in 20th October 11 and we made extra funds - �8
:56:54. > :56:54.
:56:54. > :56:58.million - available to insist in tree health. -- in October, 2011.
:56:58. > :57:02.We launched an onslaught because of climate change and because of
:57:02. > :57:07.legislation. We need to toughen up our borders and try, as far as
:57:07. > :57:11.possible, to protect our native species. This is an issue of future
:57:11. > :57:16.concern to you. It is one of those things all politicians dread. What
:57:16. > :57:20.can be done? A lot more than is being done about it stay. We have
:57:20. > :57:23.known about ash dieback for more than 10 years and seen the
:57:23. > :57:28.situation in Europe. It would have been possible to impose much
:57:28. > :57:34.tougher controls than has been the case. This is very much a too late
:57:34. > :57:41.decision taken by DEFRA. Has the horse bolted? In 2009, before my
:57:41. > :57:44.time, the search for the incidence of this disease began. 15,000
:57:44. > :57:49.ashtrays were examined for incidence of the disease. It was
:57:49. > :57:53.not until the spring of this year that the first cases were found.
:57:53. > :57:59.But you can pretty much guarantee that with the disease as endemic as
:57:59. > :58:04.it has been, it will get here. if you allow the import of trees
:58:04. > :58:08.with few controls... And not just trees. Yes: Other plants, as well.
:58:08. > :58:14.Our controls on this are completely inadequate. The important thing is
:58:14. > :58:18.that we get on with it. I am sorry to say and Caroline may not agree
:58:18. > :58:22.that the current government's cuts to the froze to commission a
:58:22. > :58:26.devastating. Last word on that. It was your cuts that caused this.
:58:26. > :58:27.did just say we made an extra �8 million available to precisely to
:58:28. > :58:32.combat the threat to our native trees.
:58:32. > :58:37.We have to leave it there. Thanks to my guests. A reminder that with
:58:37. > :58:41.just over a week to go until elections for Police and Crime
:58:41. > :58:45.Commissioners, you can go to the BBC website for the full list of