:01:19. > :01:23.the rising cost of the law. The government has drawn a radical
:01:23. > :01:33.changes to the criminal legal aid system, but has it put a price tag
:01:33. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :32:39.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1865 seconds
:32:39. > :32:41.I'm Patrick Burns, and today I'm joined by two MPs whose reputations
:32:41. > :32:47.precede them. They're passionate, if not bloody-minded, advocates of
:32:47. > :32:49.their constituencies. Tristram Hunt, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent
:32:49. > :32:52.Central, Shadow Education Minister, won praise even from the Chancellor
:32:52. > :33:01.for his campaign to exempt the ceramics industry from a new energy
:33:01. > :33:11.tax. Karen Lumley, the Conservative MP for Redditch, is fighting to keep
:33:11. > :33:12.
:33:12. > :33:15.services at the Alexandra Hospital. But what will be the issues they'll
:33:15. > :33:18.be fighting over during this new session of Parliament? Among the
:33:18. > :33:20.legislative proposals outlined in the Queen's Speech, not one, but two
:33:20. > :33:30.bills designed to keep the High-Speed Rail project firmly on
:33:30. > :33:31.
:33:31. > :33:36.track. My government will continue to
:33:36. > :33:41.invest in infrastructure to deliver jobs and growth for the economy.
:33:42. > :33:45.Legislation will be introduced to enable the building of the HS2
:33:45. > :33:51.railway line, providing further opportunities for economic growth in
:33:51. > :33:56.many of Britain's cities. Karen, your constituents and others may be
:33:56. > :34:00.rather puzzled about how it can be that the government you support can
:34:00. > :34:04.put a squeeze on local hospital services in places like
:34:05. > :34:14.Staffordshire on the one hand, and on the other, put billions towards
:34:15. > :34:15.
:34:15. > :34:20.high-speed rail. We need to rebalance the economy, getting jobs
:34:20. > :34:26.into the West Midlands. I think HS2 is a brilliant scheme which will do
:34:26. > :34:30.that and also open at Birmingham airport as well. It's only 40
:34:30. > :34:35.minutes from London to Birmingham, it takes me longer to get to Gatwick
:34:35. > :34:44.from London than that. So I think it's a great scheme, I just wish it
:34:44. > :34:52.was arriving tomorrow. We deserve economic growth, not just the south
:34:52. > :34:57.of England. And you of course are campaigning for Stoke-on-Trent to
:34:58. > :35:03.get its own dedicated high-speed rail station. I you not in danger of
:35:03. > :35:08.putting your constituency interests ahead of the country as a whole?
:35:08. > :35:12.We're fighting very hard for a stop in Stoke. We think it's absolutely
:35:12. > :35:16.vital that Staffordshire and North Staffordshire share in the riches of
:35:16. > :35:20.a high-speed option. It doesn't mean every single train has to stop in
:35:20. > :35:25.Stoke-on-Trent, although they are welcome too. We obviously understand
:35:25. > :35:29.the thing about high speed is that it goes fast from centre to centre,
:35:29. > :35:36.but it is crazy for a city like Stoke-on-Trent not to share in what
:35:36. > :35:38.we hope will be the wealth from it. If we don't get a stop, we fear will
:35:39. > :35:48.actually see a diminishing of services on our existing West Coast
:35:49. > :35:51.
:35:51. > :35:58.mainline. The business case, we keep hearing, has been managed down and
:35:58. > :36:02.down all the time, less bang for your buck. I don't necessarily
:36:02. > :36:09.agree. With cross-party agreement, we all agree there should be
:36:09. > :36:14.high-speed railway. I think HS2 should come sooner rather than
:36:14. > :36:18.later. I do share his concerns that once the train gets to Birmingham,
:36:18. > :36:24.does my train service to Redditch get better or worse? But I also
:36:24. > :36:29.understand that we need to bring jobs to the Midlands. My people in
:36:29. > :36:34.Redditch expect me to do that. there enough Parliamentary time to
:36:35. > :36:37.get this through Parliament by 2015, do you think? Well, knowing how
:36:37. > :36:42.hopeless this government isn't managing business in Westminster,
:36:42. > :36:49.I'm not sure. I hope so. But why do we begin it from Manchester going
:36:49. > :36:52.south, rather than South to North? Coming up: The lawyer's lament. As
:36:52. > :36:56.the government plans radical changes to the criminal legal aid system, we
:36:56. > :36:59.investigate what impact they'd have in the courts, here in our part of
:36:59. > :37:02.the country. Is Lady Justice about to become a model of efficiency? Or
:37:02. > :37:07.is she just being put up for sale? That's our main discussion point
:37:07. > :37:14.coming up a little later. But let's talk first about the
:37:14. > :37:17.estimated 16,000 uninsured drivers on the roads in Staffordshire alone.
:37:17. > :37:19.They cost every law-abiding motorist an extra �30 a year in their
:37:19. > :37:21.insurance premiums. Stoke, Burton-on-Trent and Tamworth are all
:37:21. > :37:31.hotspots, so now the county's police commissioner is launching a
:37:31. > :37:31.
:37:31. > :37:36.crack-down, as Liz Copper explains. This is the image Staffordshire
:37:36. > :37:39.police is hoping will deter the uninsured drivers of the future. The
:37:39. > :37:47.penalty of a car crushed, a �200 fine and six points on their
:37:47. > :37:56.licence. The force has invested in new technology as part of a
:37:56. > :38:00.three-year campaign. Technology works by looking all the time the
:38:00. > :38:05.number plates to read and compare the number plate against various
:38:05. > :38:11.databases, such as whether the vehicles are stolen or have
:38:11. > :38:15.insurance, tax, or whether we believe it is connected to crime.
:38:15. > :38:19.Sometimes spotting an uninsured driver can provide the police with
:38:19. > :38:22.links to other crimes, like finding the Birmingham gang convicted last
:38:22. > :38:25.month of planning to bomb a protest. They were stopped by a traffic
:38:26. > :38:28.officer on the motorway - and found with a boot-full of weapons. And if
:38:28. > :38:34.it's a success, the hope is the insurance companies might be
:38:34. > :38:37.persuaded to pass on the benefits. We will clamp down on insurance
:38:37. > :38:40.dodgers, and if that's the case, people in Staffordshire should get
:38:40. > :38:49.the results. They should get cheaper premiums and they should get much
:38:49. > :38:52.more safer roads. Matthew Ellis says it is obvious policing. The kind the
:38:52. > :38:59.public want, with penalties for those who break the law and rewards
:38:59. > :39:04.for those who stay within it. That would be one premium I think most
:39:04. > :39:08.motorists would welcome. It seems that the Conservative police and
:39:08. > :39:13.crime commissioner in Staffordshire is making a positive impact on an
:39:13. > :39:18.important subject. Yes, I think this is a good idea. The inspiration
:39:18. > :39:23.comes from a policeman in Liverpool who came to London to be head of the
:39:23. > :39:28.Met police. The idea was, if you go for uninsured drivers, you tend to
:39:28. > :39:33.find a range of other criminal activities surrounding them. So it
:39:33. > :39:37.cracks down on crime and it also makes sure the insurance people pass
:39:37. > :39:43.on the lower costs to drivers. That's where we have to watch the
:39:43. > :39:50.crime commission. If he can to live a lower insurance premiums, that
:39:50. > :39:58.will be great. Do you think the penalty is about right? �200, six
:39:58. > :40:03.points of the licence? I don't think it's too lenient. The damage you can
:40:03. > :40:09.cause to our family in an accident, other peoples property, if you are
:40:09. > :40:15.uninsured, it is very to do this. I think �200 is likely on the low
:40:15. > :40:19.side. We saw the role of technology in there. There is an answer in
:40:19. > :40:25.terms of technology, but is there enough to roll it out to make an
:40:25. > :40:30.appreciable difference? He is carrying on an initiative which has
:40:30. > :40:34.to be good for every driver on the road. It is irresponsible not to
:40:34. > :40:38.have insurance, although I do also say that young people today struggle
:40:38. > :40:44.massively to actually afford insurance. I remember buying my son
:40:45. > :40:48.his first car, the insurance was three times the cost of the car. So
:40:49. > :40:56.we need to look at how insurance companies charge lung -- charge
:40:56. > :41:02.young people to drive them. There may be other ways to get young
:41:02. > :41:07.people into cars. I'd like to look at other initiatives as well as just
:41:07. > :41:17.this one. We have to climb down on this issue of selling on insurance
:41:17. > :41:18.
:41:18. > :41:21.details. -- clamp down. There is a great, murky area in the insurance
:41:21. > :41:27.legal world which affects children you want to get their first car.
:41:27. > :41:33.Talking of grey areas, this is a clear area of zero tolerance
:41:33. > :41:36.approach. Do you think that has been quiet tolerance in the past? Maybe
:41:36. > :41:43.this is a case where the Commissioner is introducing a new
:41:43. > :41:47.toughness to the proceedings? police to monitor this in my area
:41:47. > :41:50.quite closely. I think he is come out with a fine and the points. The
:41:50. > :41:54.points will be more worrying for younger people, because if you get
:41:54. > :41:58.more than six points and you've only had your licence for a short time,
:41:58. > :42:08.your licence could be revoked. So actually, it will affect younger
:42:08. > :42:08.
:42:08. > :42:12.people more in that way. It's a self-perpetuating problem. If it --
:42:12. > :42:17.if an area is known for being a black spot, then it becomes harder
:42:17. > :42:23.to get insurance. So the entire community suffers. I was staggered
:42:23. > :42:26.at the total cost of this problem. �400 million. It is staggering.
:42:26. > :42:33.and wouldn't it be great if we could pass on that reduction to younger
:42:33. > :42:38.people. I'm sure when these people are caught, the proportion of young
:42:38. > :42:41.people to old people will be significant. There is now clear line
:42:41. > :42:46.of accountability. If those rates are lower in three years, we will
:42:46. > :42:50.see! What is the collective noun for
:42:50. > :42:55.lawyers? There are several: an "eloquence", a "huddle" or even a
:42:55. > :43:03."disputation". There was certainly a disputation here last week over
:43:03. > :43:05.Government plans for the criminal legal aid system. It wants lawyers
:43:05. > :43:08.to reduce their charges substantially, to help cut the legal
:43:08. > :43:12.aid bill of well over �1 billion. Many lawyers believe there's far
:43:12. > :43:14.more at stake here than just the money. Our political reporter
:43:14. > :43:24.Elizabeth Glinka has been to Birmingham City University's law
:43:24. > :43:27.
:43:27. > :43:30.school to cross examine some What price justice? At the moment,
:43:30. > :43:33.legal aid for criminal cases costs the taxpayer over a billion pounds a
:43:33. > :43:38.year - the government wants that to come down and is consulting on plans
:43:38. > :43:43.to restructure the system. Cutting the number of firms allowed to
:43:43. > :43:47.represent criminals from 1,600 to 400.
:43:47. > :43:49.Instead of choosing your solicitor as you do at the moment, you'd have
:43:49. > :43:53.one assigned to you from a government approved list. From a
:43:53. > :44:03.firm which has agreed to be paid at least 17.5% less than they charge at
:44:03. > :44:07.the moment. Client choice goes out the window. The proposals treat a
:44:07. > :44:11.firm's reputation as if it's nothing, whereas in reality, it is
:44:11. > :44:15.everything. The incentive is there for the solicitor to do a good job,
:44:15. > :44:18.because when they do a good job, they come back, and other clients
:44:18. > :44:21.are referred to us. So rich lawyers might be a little less rich - but
:44:21. > :44:24.what if you want your day in court like these Birmingham students?
:44:24. > :44:32.Well, under the changes, your lawyer will be paid exactly the same
:44:32. > :44:36.whether they take your case to trail or advise you to plead guilty.
:44:36. > :44:39.obvious fear is they would be putting pressure potentially on the
:44:39. > :44:43.clients to plead guilty so they can get on with their next guilty plea,
:44:43. > :44:47.and they don't have to waste the time doing a trial. The consultation
:44:47. > :44:51.on the plans ends on the 4th of June, and the scheme could be up and
:44:51. > :44:54.running as early as next year. Under the changes, there would be a
:44:54. > :44:57.maximum of 36 firms awarded contracts across the Midlands. Just
:44:57. > :45:02.to put that into some kind of perspective there are currently 55
:45:02. > :45:11.practising in Birmingham alone. Which could mean law firms going out
:45:11. > :45:16.of business. A worrying trend for the next generation. At the end of
:45:16. > :45:19.the day, wherein there is to get a job. Obviously it is about justice
:45:19. > :45:26.and all the ideals and everything that comes with it, but if you can't
:45:26. > :45:30.put food on the table, what's the point? By saying you should just be
:45:30. > :45:36.allowed to cut people's pay, you will get less people wanting to do
:45:36. > :45:39.it. If there is no passion in it, you will not get great results.
:45:39. > :45:42.Access to justice should be paramount over cuts when people
:45:42. > :45:46.really need help. So while the government is sensible to look at
:45:47. > :45:50.cuts, to do it as extensively as this in this case is just bizarre.
:45:50. > :45:54.The government says fewer firms will mean better value for the taxpayer -
:45:54. > :45:57.the lawyers fear the quality of justice will suffer.
:45:57. > :46:04."Access to justice is paramount," said one of those students. But at
:46:04. > :46:07.what cost to the public purse? Elizabeth Glinka reporting.
:46:07. > :46:09.We're also joined by Professor Andrew Sanders, Head of the
:46:09. > :46:12.University of Birmingham Law School, one of the co-signatories of a
:46:12. > :46:20.recent letter to The Times setting out serious misgivings about the
:46:20. > :46:25.Government's proposals. Could you briefly summarise what business
:46:25. > :46:29.givings are? We're very worried about the fact that these proposals
:46:29. > :46:32.eliminate choice for suspects and defendants in criminal cases. They
:46:32. > :46:39.reduced the number of firms that will be able to offer these legal
:46:40. > :46:46.services. Our concern isn't directly with the price that lawyers charge,
:46:46. > :46:50.our concern is that the costs will increase pressure to reduce the
:46:51. > :46:56.quality of service that they give to clients. But the taxpayer has an
:46:56. > :46:59.interest in the price of this. Over �1 billion stash is there not a case
:46:59. > :47:07.for bringing a bit of market business efficiency into the
:47:07. > :47:09.proceedings? There is a case for bringing more efficiency if the
:47:09. > :47:14.business is proven to be inefficient. I read the consultation
:47:14. > :47:19.paper and I don't see any evidence of inefficiency at the moment. Even
:47:19. > :47:24.at the moment, there are pressures on lawyers to get clients to plead
:47:25. > :47:30.ill -- plead guilty when it is not always in their interests.
:47:30. > :47:35.really saying someone will fill pressured to plead guilty when they
:47:35. > :47:39.are quite credibly not guilty? is clear evidence from research that
:47:39. > :47:45.this sometimes happens. I'm not saying it happens a lot, and
:47:45. > :47:48.sometimes it is not always clear whether someone is guilty or not.
:47:48. > :47:53.Defendants in many cases need very, very good advice from lawyers who
:47:53. > :48:00.are prepared to put the working to ascertaining whether or not are
:48:00. > :48:04.guilty. Under these new proposals, if a client is not convinced their
:48:04. > :48:09.lawyer is doing that work, they will not be able to change their lawyer.
:48:09. > :48:13.Karen, there is the case for the prosecution. For the defence now,
:48:13. > :48:17.how do you plead in terms of the accusations against the government?
:48:17. > :48:26.You are converting some of the finest principles of justice in this
:48:26. > :48:30.country and selling them cheap. don't accept that. We spend over �1
:48:30. > :48:36.billion worth of taxpayers money on this service and I think we are in
:48:36. > :48:41.very difficult times. But what price the denigration of Justice? It is
:48:41. > :48:45.not about that, it's about getting the best value for the taxpayer. I
:48:45. > :48:50.don't see anything wrong with going to competitive tender. We do that in
:48:50. > :48:54.other areas. We all agree that a lot of money is spent and it goes to
:48:54. > :48:59.lawyers. It doesn't go to the victims of the crimes. When people
:48:59. > :49:03.need a good lawyer, they should get one. But we have to look at how this
:49:03. > :49:09.money is spent. 11,000 prison cases get legal aid. Is that right? Should
:49:09. > :49:14.there be a legal aid system in prisons for complaints? That is one
:49:14. > :49:18.part of that. I think we need to save some money and put some victims
:49:18. > :49:21.first to make sure they get a fair deal when they get to court. I got
:49:21. > :49:28.parliament was absolutely stuffed with lawyers, so what do you make of
:49:28. > :49:32.this breakdown? Well, I'm not a lawyer! Proper representation was
:49:32. > :49:38.part of the welfare settlement in the post-war years and it is a vital
:49:38. > :49:43.part of British justice. The concern is the plurality of provision, the
:49:43. > :49:48.civil Society of the legal system, is under threat from this. We see
:49:48. > :49:53.this from a government which likes to give contracts to big countries
:49:53. > :49:58.-- companies which then always deliver. We've seen that with the
:49:58. > :50:03.work programme, which concerned about the rehabilitation programme.
:50:03. > :50:08.Are you actually going to get the savings? The evidence seems to me
:50:08. > :50:17.unclear at the moment. So we will look at this consultation very, very
:50:17. > :50:22.closely. But is actually going to deliver savings while justice?
:50:22. > :50:27.is the evidence that there is any inefficiency at the moment?
:50:27. > :50:31.money we are spending cannot carry on in that way. Then raise the money
:50:31. > :50:41.from other sources. What other sources? Well, higher rate
:50:41. > :50:42.
:50:42. > :50:52.taxpayers. That every thousand pounds a high tax here gives, they
:50:52. > :50:58.get �2000 in tax breaks. I've been holding back on one further
:50:58. > :51:02.collective noun for lawyers. It is greed! Would you not accept that
:51:03. > :51:08.lawyers are fairly low down in the pecking order of public sympathy in
:51:09. > :51:17.terms of raising concerns on behalf of law firms? Well, I'm not a
:51:17. > :51:22.lawyer, I'm illegal person. I care that suspects and defendants get
:51:22. > :51:26.justice. You referred to victims, many of the suspects are victims
:51:26. > :51:31.themselves because they are not guilty and they are found not
:51:31. > :51:35.guilty. So to put defendants on the other side from victims is to make a
:51:36. > :51:42.huge error. We are innocent until proven guilty and suspects need a
:51:42. > :51:47.good service. Is this in practice really just the start of a
:51:47. > :51:52.negotiation? Saying, here is a big stick, we will hit you with this if
:51:52. > :51:58.you don't lower your charges. is about getting value for the
:51:58. > :52:02.taxpayer from solicitors. We are in a difficult financial situation and
:52:02. > :52:08.we need to be as efficient as possible. But there are fundamental
:52:08. > :52:12.principles about access to justice and also the civil society. Thank
:52:12. > :52:15.you all very much, in particular you Andrew for being here with us today.
:52:15. > :52:18.Now for our regular round-up of the political week in the Midlands in 60
:52:18. > :52:25.seconds, brought to us this week by BBC Coventry and Warwickshire's
:52:25. > :52:28.Sandwell College is in talks about taking over the Public Arts Centre
:52:28. > :52:33.in West Bromwich and turning it into a sixth form college. The building
:52:33. > :52:36.cost �72 million but had increased visitor numbers this year.
:52:36. > :52:41.When is a town centre not a town centre? Nuneaton's traders fear it
:52:41. > :52:45.is when no one comes to shop. They want more help to drive up business.
:52:45. > :52:47.But all hail the Jaguar F type, as the first ones destined for export
:52:47. > :52:52.rolled off the new production line at Castle Bromwich. It's already
:52:52. > :52:56.provided work for more than 50 West Midlands firms.
:52:56. > :53:00.And foreign money is continuing to flow into Birmingham. Figures show
:53:00. > :53:10.investment from abroad has risen by more than half in the past year.
:53:10. > :53:13.And the city also has a new car sharing scheme. Clearly, we have a
:53:13. > :53:20.good manufacturing base. But were also seeing investment for digital
:53:20. > :53:23.Drivers rent the vehicles by the minute. There are 250 across
:53:23. > :53:33.Birmingham which can be left in central council parking spaces for
:53:33. > :53:37.
:53:37. > :53:42.nothing. Let's hear from the transport select committee. Do you
:53:42. > :53:45.think they will catch on? They did in London as well, you run them for
:53:45. > :53:49.an hour or something. I think it's a really good idea for moving around
:53:49. > :53:55.the city and not having to pay all these insurance premiums that we've
:53:55. > :54:02.been talking about! Birmingham is the second city to doing this. Do
:54:02. > :54:06.you think Stoke will be on the list? It's easier to find your way around
:54:06. > :54:10.Stoke than Birmingham. The trouble with Birmingham is on the cars, it's
:54:10. > :54:15.the roadworks. So you might take one of these cars but whether you're
:54:15. > :54:24.then able to deposit it at the end! We've got lots of roundabouts in
:54:24. > :54:30.Redditch! It does raise of course the serious pressure congestion puts
:54:30. > :54:33.on our economy. We have to think of ways to get around it. I took the
:54:33. > :54:41.tram today and I understand it's going to be extended. I think that's
:54:41. > :54:46.brilliant. And the new station in Birmingham is making it more easier
:54:46. > :54:53.for people to access Birmingham. That has to be good news for all of
:54:53. > :54:59.us. The other point is it is energy efficient. We need to wean ourselves
:54:59. > :55:03.as a nation away from fossil fuels. Also, what we must be clear about is
:55:03. > :55:06.this infrastructure and investment in transport provides the
:55:06. > :55:09.apprenticeships we need. My thanks to Karen and Tristram.
:55:09. > :55:12.Next week we'll be joined by Chris Kelly, the Conservative MP for
:55:12. > :55:15.Dudley South. And for Labour, by the former Shropshire MP Bruce, now
:55:15. > :55:17.Lord, Grocott. And Shropshire's Council Leader Keith Barrow will be
:55:17. > :55:19.taking questions in BBC Radio Shropshire's hot seat from ten
:55:20. > :55:22.o'clock on Wednesday morning, including, no doubt, how his