:01:32. > :01:35.What is the real value or cost of private education? Should schools
:01:35. > :01:45.be forced to do more to help local communities if we want a one-nation
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :37:42.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2156 seconds
:37:42. > :37:46.That morning. One of her guests has seen it all, done it all. He became
:37:46. > :37:52.a Member of Parliament before Chris Kelly was born. He was the Labour
:37:52. > :37:57.MP for Tunworth. Former television presenter, for his sins. He was
:37:57. > :38:02.responsible for letting cameras into the House of Commons. Chris
:38:02. > :38:05.Kelly helped to run the family drug business and went on to become the
:38:05. > :38:11.founder of the all-party Parliamentary Group for a family
:38:11. > :38:14.business. Welcome. Was it that family business back
:38:14. > :38:19.ground that persuaded Chris Kelly to become one of 10 Midlands MPs
:38:19. > :38:23.who signed an amendment to the Queen's Speech last week,
:38:23. > :38:29.regretting the omission of a referendum about Europe? Labour
:38:29. > :38:33.reckon history is repeating itself. It is little wonder that John
:38:33. > :38:37.Major's former press secretary said there are some parallels with the
:38:37. > :38:41.backing of John Major's Premiership. One of the differences is that was
:38:41. > :38:47.when the Conservatives had been in power for 17 or 18 years. Now they
:38:47. > :38:53.have only been in Coalition for two or three years. Is it deja-vu all
:38:53. > :38:57.over again, as John Prescott once said?
:38:57. > :39:01.Isn't the net effect to parade your differences in public and we know
:39:02. > :39:06.the electorate does not vote for divided parties? I do not think we
:39:06. > :39:13.are parading differences in public. We will see a younger servitor
:39:13. > :39:21.backbencher bringing in a private member's bill. You will see on that
:39:21. > :39:25.day, the members of parliament will be supporting James. We all want
:39:25. > :39:31.the same thing. The Conservative Party trusts the British people. We
:39:31. > :39:37.want a referendum to give the British people the choice. Bruce,
:39:37. > :39:40.you are a Euro-sceptic. Doesn't it frustrate you that Labour is
:39:40. > :39:43.increasingly being seen as the party being driven towards a
:39:43. > :39:53.position of the anti referendum Party, when it suggests most people
:39:53. > :39:58.want one? The last seven days has been Alice in Wonderland politics.
:39:58. > :40:01.Mr Cameron did not bring in a bill himself. He wrote the Queen's
:40:01. > :40:11.Speech, which was read out, and within a week he would not even
:40:11. > :40:15.defend it. Now he is seeing a flagship policy being introduced by
:40:15. > :40:20.an obscure backbencher. There has been speculation that some MPs may
:40:20. > :40:25.seek an endorsement from UKIP going into the next general election. Can
:40:25. > :40:29.you imagine a situation that you might encounter this? I was elected
:40:29. > :40:36.as a Conservative and I want to be re-elected as that. It is a two-
:40:36. > :40:46.horse race, and I do not really see that is being an option. People who
:40:46. > :40:46.
:40:46. > :40:55.are naturally inclined to support UK -- UKIP are very welcome to do
:40:56. > :41:04.so. It looks as though it is in a certain amount of disarray. This is
:41:04. > :41:07.not a Conservative government, this is a Coalition government. I regret
:41:07. > :41:15.the Referendum Bill was not in the Queen's Speech, and the reason it
:41:15. > :41:17.was not there is that big Liberal Democrats would not allow it.
:41:17. > :41:22.wasn't in the Queen's Speech because the Prime Minister did not
:41:22. > :41:29.put it in the speech that was read out on his up -- his behalf. He
:41:29. > :41:32.seems to be adopting the policy, do not blame me, I am only the Prime
:41:32. > :41:35.Minister. Whether you agree with the course of action are not, it
:41:35. > :41:40.should be in the Queen's Speech if you wanted there. Not on some
:41:40. > :41:43.obscure Friday with all sorts of people taking part, which is what a
:41:43. > :41:49.private member's bill on a major constitutional issue is likely to
:41:49. > :41:52.turn into. Coming up, the call on elite
:41:52. > :41:56.schools to run water help their neighbours. A former schools
:41:56. > :42:02.minister says the high fees charged by private schools mean their
:42:02. > :42:11.pupils only have a mixed with each other. That does none of us any
:42:11. > :42:15.good whatsoever. -- they only have a mix with each other.
:42:15. > :42:18.Our main talking point today concerns housing benefit. Among
:42:18. > :42:22.from Staffordshire was among 10 people who took the government to
:42:22. > :42:30.court last week over plans to reduce benefits to claimants whose
:42:30. > :42:40.homes are deemed to have spare rooms by 14% for one extra room, or
:42:40. > :42:47.
:42:47. > :42:52.25% for two or more. Just earlier, a suicide note blamed this.
:42:52. > :42:56.only people to blame are the government, no one else. Stephanie
:42:56. > :43:00.died on 4th May, having written a letter to her family saying that
:43:00. > :43:05.she always loved them but she could not cope any more. She was worried
:43:05. > :43:12.about playing rent -- paying rent in her three-bedroom house. Her
:43:12. > :43:16.children had left home, so she had to move or find an extra �20 a week.
:43:16. > :43:25.For people struggling to meet their housing costs, people half -- the
:43:25. > :43:29.government has an emergency pot of money, and that has been increased
:43:29. > :43:34.from �22 million to �155 million this year. In the West must -- the
:43:34. > :43:37.West Midlands, the council gets a share of �11 million. This man has
:43:38. > :43:41.been trying to challenge the new rules in court. His disabled son
:43:41. > :43:48.stays with him for half of the B, and argues the Government did not
:43:48. > :43:53.consider how the changes would consider those with a disability.
:43:53. > :44:00.They seem to have rushed in and not looked at the outcomes of what can
:44:00. > :44:10.happen. In my case, there is a possibility that my son, if I have
:44:10. > :44:23.
:44:23. > :44:28.to move, he may never get to stay The Government estimates the
:44:28. > :44:37.changes will save �500 million a year, opponents say the German cost
:44:37. > :44:40.cannot be justified. We are also joined today by Simon, from the
:44:40. > :44:44.National Housing Federation, the umbrella organisation representing
:44:44. > :44:52.social landlords and housing associations. It cannot be right
:44:52. > :44:55.that the general taxpayer is subsidising what our spare rooms?
:44:55. > :44:59.We do not think the Government will achieve what it set out to achieve
:44:59. > :45:02.from this measure. I think what the government said was that if it
:45:02. > :45:07.introduced this measure that it would ease overcrowding and
:45:07. > :45:14.pressure on social housing. I information tells us that the vast
:45:14. > :45:19.majority of people will choose to stay in their homes but take the
:45:19. > :45:25.additional financial hit. This targets some of the more vulnerable
:45:25. > :45:29.members of society. But it is also a way of putting a pressure run
:45:29. > :45:35.numbers because of the chronic overcrowding, so they need to move
:45:35. > :45:40.people away from under occupied accommodation. In some areas there
:45:40. > :45:44.is overcrowding and in some areas less so. The real answer to this is
:45:44. > :45:50.to build more affordable homes because if we build more affordable
:45:50. > :46:00.homes we would pay less housing benefit to people in those homes.
:46:00. > :46:01.
:46:01. > :46:11.But that would take time, surely. But what the bedroom tax does with
:46:11. > :46:14.
:46:14. > :46:17.and number of other welfare measures,... It makes it harder for
:46:17. > :46:20.housing associations to subsidise and build a more affordable homes.
:46:21. > :46:24.If people end up losing their homes as a result of the measure, they
:46:24. > :46:34.could end up being rehoused in the more expensive private rented
:46:34. > :46:35.
:46:35. > :46:40.sector. How do you respond to that, given that we hear people are
:46:40. > :46:48.struggling generally, and decides to the press should. There are
:46:48. > :46:53.discretionary payments made to help with this. But local authorities
:46:53. > :46:58.are struggling. The housing list is almost 2 million people, who are
:46:58. > :47:01.waiting for suitable housing. People living accommodation not
:47:01. > :47:05.suitable for their families, while other people living in properties
:47:05. > :47:15.which are larger than they require, so we need to make those homes
:47:15. > :47:21.available for people on the housing list. And this subsidy means more
:47:21. > :47:24.people can live in accommodation more suitable for their needs.
:47:24. > :47:30.published a block on this subject, and the response was absolutely
:47:30. > :47:34.ballistic. There were 50 replies within the first few minutes, and I
:47:34. > :47:40.have to say that there was a lot of sympathy for individual cases like
:47:40. > :47:43.Stephanie, but the balance of opinion was broad and siding with
:47:43. > :47:47.the Government. It would be interesting to see what the
:47:47. > :47:54.response would be having seen that clip, which was excellent, not
:47:54. > :48:01.least because it demonstrated that, as we know, very large proportion
:48:01. > :48:06.of the people affected are people with someone with a disability in
:48:06. > :48:11.the family. Two-thirds are cases where people need the extra space.
:48:11. > :48:16.Couples who will no longer be in the same bedroom because of
:48:16. > :48:22.equipment associated with a disability. If you put out on your
:48:22. > :48:29.block, or whatever it is people do these days, they would be
:48:29. > :48:38.sympathetic to cases like that. we're still not delivering nearly
:48:38. > :48:42.enough accommodation. That is why there is a planning law, and new
:48:42. > :48:46.houses of this type will be built, so people can live out of bed and
:48:46. > :48:52.breakfast accommodation into their own home for the first time. Simon,
:48:52. > :48:58.we hear reports that people in Birmingham are banding together to
:48:58. > :49:03.fight what they called their bedroom tax. How significant using
:49:03. > :49:08.that might be? I cannot comment on individual campaigns, but there is
:49:08. > :49:14.a real sense of unfairness, that this particular measure does target
:49:14. > :49:20.60,000 people across the West Midlands, and 20% of them are in
:49:20. > :49:24.work but low-income. 63% are families with a disabled person in
:49:24. > :49:28.the family, so having a spare bedroom is beneficial for them for
:49:28. > :49:33.additional equipment and adaptations in their home. There is
:49:33. > :49:36.just the real sense that this particular policy measure is
:49:36. > :49:41.targeting a group of people, when the government could be doing other
:49:41. > :49:45.things to achieve this. The bottom line is that housing benefit alone
:49:45. > :49:49.has doubled, it accounts for 23 billion of public spending, which
:49:50. > :49:56.is only 10 billion less than the entire defence budget. Politicians
:49:56. > :50:01.have to take tough choices. I would say that they have made the wrong
:50:01. > :50:06.choice by targeting some of the most vulnerable people in the
:50:06. > :50:15.country, on the lowest income, and in global terms of public
:50:15. > :50:19.expenditure, are relatively small sum of money. This is all against
:50:19. > :50:25.the backdrop of the terrible state of finances we inherited from the
:50:25. > :50:31.Labour government. That is a clear issue for continued discussion over
:50:31. > :50:36.time, but not today. Thank you to Simon for being with us today.
:50:36. > :50:41.Are part of the country has 93 independent schools charging fees,
:50:41. > :50:45.educating more than 36,500 pupils. That is fractionally down during
:50:45. > :50:55.the stuff economic times, but it has not stopped the former Labour
:50:55. > :51:00.schools minister Andrew Adonis for -- from going on the attack. He
:51:00. > :51:10.says they are failing in their duty to help the less well-off. Our
:51:10. > :51:12.
:51:12. > :51:17.political reporter went to the Malvern Hills to investigate.
:51:17. > :51:23.Pay �30,000, and in return your child has promised one of the best
:51:23. > :51:28.British Education's. It seems all that money pays off. 51% of top
:51:28. > :51:33.doctors in this country went to a private school. The same could be
:51:33. > :51:37.said for 54% of the FTSE 100 chief executives. And if you are thinking
:51:37. > :51:44.about becoming a High Court judge, you should know that two thirds of
:51:44. > :51:47.them went to a fee-paying school. All that despite the fact that in
:51:47. > :51:53.this country only 7% of the population actually go to a private
:51:53. > :51:57.school. Most fee-paying schools are given charity status, this means
:51:57. > :52:02.big tax breaks. In return they have to prove that they benefit the
:52:02. > :52:05.wider public, but in a recent speech, the former Labour schools
:52:05. > :52:09.minister Lord Adonis said he wants the fee-paying schools to go
:52:09. > :52:19.further, working more and more with academies to drive up standards for
:52:19. > :52:24.all. The headmaster here says he has already doing his bit. The 2%
:52:24. > :52:30.of our pupils receive bursaries already, and I am sure we could do
:52:30. > :52:35.more, but we have to bear in mind that the parents are fee payers to
:52:35. > :52:41.the school and they expect our focus to be clearly on this college.
:52:41. > :52:51.A stone's throw a way is this high school, an academy, paid for by the
:52:51. > :52:52.
:52:52. > :52:58.taxpayer. But could it benefit from more help from Malvern College?
:52:58. > :53:01.will be harder for us to retain the breadth of curriculum, which is
:53:01. > :53:05.perhaps where that corporation could be much more beneficial to
:53:05. > :53:10.the children. What you do not want to do is narrow the curriculum, you
:53:10. > :53:15.want children to have the choice. At the moment we can manage that,
:53:15. > :53:18.but whether we can maintain that, I do not know. What about the pupils?
:53:19. > :53:23.How would they feel about working closer? Both sides have
:53:23. > :53:28.preconceptions about the other side. But it could wear it -- it could
:53:28. > :53:30.work. Although the school does quite a bit, it is good to share
:53:30. > :53:37.those opportunities with other schools who might not get to do
:53:37. > :53:44.that. Lord Adonis is not saying this is about the haves helping the
:53:44. > :53:47.have-nots. It is about integration in society.
:53:47. > :53:53.For the record, Chris went to Wolverhampton High School, and
:53:54. > :53:58.Bruce went to what was then Hemel Hempstead state grammar school. We
:53:58. > :54:06.talk about one nation, in the Labour Party, but isn't Lord Adonis
:54:06. > :54:09.doing a bit of a sort of us and them act in downplaying the
:54:09. > :54:15.contribution of independent schools? 12,000 of their pupils get
:54:15. > :54:21.either free or assisted places with their own schemes. That is a major
:54:21. > :54:31.contribution. There is an element of us and them in the opportunities
:54:31. > :54:33.
:54:33. > :54:37.available. The fee for going to Eton is 32 -- �32,000 a year.
:54:37. > :54:46.are now part of the country, they are not bad. But in the clip, it
:54:46. > :54:56.was 30,000. We also think of Wolverhampton Grammar School,
:54:56. > :55:06.independent schools in towns and cities. I think bringing together
:55:06. > :55:08.
:55:08. > :55:13.the schools is to be admired, but the blunt facts are that the
:55:13. > :55:17.schools are way beyond the means of the majority of people. 19 of the
:55:17. > :55:23.54 Prime Minister as well educated at Eton, including the present one,
:55:23. > :55:28.so it is your places, but we cannot all afford it. Is it not reinforced
:55:28. > :55:30.-- reinforcing the social divisions? Lord Adonis says the
:55:30. > :55:37.youngsters are socially disabled because they are not integrated and
:55:37. > :55:44.socialising widely and are. I think we should celebrate independent
:55:44. > :55:48.schools. But the vast majority of them to work with the neighbouring
:55:49. > :55:53.schools. I would like to see more of independent schools sponsoring
:55:53. > :55:58.academies. There is great scope there. But I am not against
:55:58. > :56:06.independent education. charitable status gives them tax
:56:06. > :56:15.breaks, but is it not difficult because of the real value to the
:56:15. > :56:20.community is. The vast majority of them do cherish their charitable
:56:20. > :56:24.status, and take this CD sleeve. Lord Adonis seems to be saying that
:56:24. > :56:29.it is socially disabling for them, but you are saying that all of the
:56:29. > :56:33.top doctors and judges have an advantage. Which is it? I think
:56:33. > :56:42.they can go together. That is one of the problems, that the people at
:56:42. > :56:49.the top, such as the Prime Minister, I do not have any problem with them
:56:49. > :56:55.going to Eton, but it means that he is operating in a rather
:56:55. > :57:01.disconnected environment. Disconnected, Chris? This would
:57:01. > :57:06.have greater attraction if it was not the Labour government that have
:57:06. > :57:10.scrapped things like this. It was the greatest aid to social mobility
:57:11. > :57:20.that occurred in my lifetime. could continue, but we must move
:57:21. > :57:25.
:57:25. > :57:30.forward. Now, the regular round-up Unemployment went up by 16,000 in
:57:30. > :57:36.the Midlands in the first quarter of the year. 9.2% of the workforce
:57:36. > :57:39.have not got a job. In Coventry, Severn Trent Water has rejected a
:57:39. > :57:46.�5 billion takeover bid from international investors because it
:57:46. > :57:49.undervalues the company. The newly elected UKIP councillor has
:57:49. > :57:56.resigned after posting offence of cartoons and drawings on a social
:57:56. > :58:03.network side. I am not a politician, a bit of a full. I have not got a
:58:03. > :58:07.racist bone in my body, but I can see why people think that. The bill
:58:07. > :58:10.for the high-speed rail line linking London to the north was
:58:10. > :58:14.formally presented to Parliament, for the National Audit Office to
:58:14. > :58:19.report that the economic case for the project is still in doubt. And
:58:19. > :58:22.the benefit from the cuts in the top rate of tax? The question post
:58:22. > :58:29.by Unison to every Midlands MP. Most of the local Conservatives
:58:29. > :58:35.simply did not answer. Chris, Unison tell me you are one
:58:35. > :58:39.of the people there are still waiting to hear from. I am not
:58:40. > :58:44.aware they even wrote to me, but I would like to question if the boss
:58:44. > :58:48.of the union received such a tax cut himself. His fundamental point
:58:48. > :58:52.is that there is an issue of transparency around people being
:58:52. > :58:55.seen to vote through something from which they will benefit when most
:58:55. > :59:00.people are experiencing a significant squeeze, that is his
:59:00. > :59:05.point. But lower taxes are good for the economy, good for families, and
:59:05. > :59:09.a yield greater revenue for the Treasury to invest in public
:59:09. > :59:13.services. Wasn't that the point about the top rate, that it was
:59:13. > :59:18.counter-productive for the Exchequer? I do not think people
:59:18. > :59:22.who benefited from the cuts are too enthusiastic about publicising it.
:59:22. > :59:27.�100,000 increase in their income as a result of the tax cut for the
:59:27. > :59:30.richest people. Earlier we spoke about cutting back payments to
:59:31. > :59:39.people with disabilities in the House. That just sums up the
:59:39. > :59:43.balance of values of the Government. So did the damage to the Exchequer
:59:43. > :59:49.while it was in for its? I cannot see whether -- why someone earning
:59:49. > :59:56.more than a million pounds a year needs a bit more to work harder.
:59:56. > :00:04.There is a big difference between new Labour and what we have today.
:00:04. > :00:08.Thank you very much indeed. Next week, we will look ahead to
:00:08. > :00:15.Thursday, when we have full coverage of the planned meeting