:01:18. > :01:22.In the north-west, housing benefit reform class who cares and who pays?
:01:22. > :01:32.Will the integration of council and health services put patients on a
:01:32. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :37:40.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2168 seconds
:37:40. > :37:45.I am Patrick Burns and joining us today to of our distinguished elder
:37:46. > :37:49.statesman who both spent 27 years as MPs before being elevated to the
:37:49. > :37:56.upper House. Lord Fowler was the great survivor of the Thatcher
:37:56. > :38:02.Cabinet. He served as Sutton Coldfield's Conservative MP and
:38:02. > :38:06.Secretary of State for transport, employment and social services. Lord
:38:06. > :38:14.Snape was government whip under Jim Callaghan. Good to have you both
:38:14. > :38:17.with us. Should illegal in be granted an amnesty two the
:38:17. > :38:22.Conservative MP for Stratford-upon-Avon has caused a bit
:38:22. > :38:28.of a stir by suggesting they should be given permission to remain in the
:38:28. > :38:30.UK under strict conditions. It is an echo of the Bill passed recently in
:38:30. > :38:39.the US Senate which will benefit millions of illegals on the other
:38:39. > :38:48.side of the pond, many from Mexico. The MPs said it could help bolster
:38:48. > :38:54.his Party's support amongst Ek -- minorities. What do you do about
:38:54. > :38:58.600,000 people who are working in the black economy? Do want to --
:38:58. > :39:02.them to contribute? The Exchequer is getting nothing for it. Can we
:39:02. > :39:10.entice them to come out from the shadows and participate in the UK
:39:10. > :39:13.economy. That idea was slapped down by the
:39:13. > :39:19.Prime Minister who said it would send out the message that Britain
:39:19. > :39:23.was a soft touch. Was David Cameron he stay, it would bring in 600,000
:39:23. > :39:30.people into the black economy into this country where they would make
:39:30. > :39:35.some contribution? -- was David Cameron Hastie? Yes, but it might
:39:35. > :39:39.bring a lot of other people who might think this is a good place to
:39:39. > :39:42.go because they think they will get some sort of let off when it comes
:39:42. > :39:48.to it. I think it would be very premature,
:39:48. > :39:53.pretty unwise step to take. Particularly when we have had so
:39:53. > :39:56.many problems over the last 20 years controlling immigration, having a
:39:56. > :40:02.system for controlling it. We seem to be getting on top of that now but
:40:02. > :40:08.it does take on a long time. Isn't that the point, Peter, it is at
:40:08. > :40:16.least to do with the mess left behind by your administration?
:40:16. > :40:20.cynical for the Conservatives to suggest this. It is also sending out
:40:20. > :40:27.the wrong message as it is unfair on people who have spent many years
:40:27. > :40:31.waiting to get here legally. Lastly, it doesn't affect places
:40:31. > :40:34.like Stratford-upon-Avon. The social consequences of immigration are felt
:40:34. > :40:40.in cities like Birmingham, Wolverhampton and West Bromwich, not
:40:40. > :40:44.Stratford-upon-Avon. It is also a recognition that your Party is not
:40:44. > :40:49.making headway among ethnic minorities, as Nadhim Zahawi says,
:40:49. > :40:55.there are many people who would be considered small C Conservatives in
:40:55. > :41:00.those communities who are averse to voting Conservatives in elections.
:41:00. > :41:04.I think all of the parties have a problem in getting people in
:41:04. > :41:08.minority communities to actually vote. I don't actually see this as a
:41:08. > :41:11.Party political thing. The idea that you give an amnesty to illegal
:41:12. > :41:16.immigrants then there are going to say that is fantastic, we will vote
:41:16. > :41:20.Conservative, is just fanciful, frankly. You should judge it on its
:41:20. > :41:25.merits and frankly it is just not proven.
:41:25. > :41:30.Did you think there is a challenge to some of the parties to think more
:41:30. > :41:32.inclusively about involving different communities? It is a
:41:32. > :41:35.challenge for successive governments to enforce immigration controls.
:41:35. > :41:41.This country has benefited enormously from immigration but
:41:41. > :41:47.frankly there have been strains, as well. I don't make a political point
:41:47. > :41:51.about giving illegal immigrants and amnesty would benefit the
:41:51. > :41:57.Conservatives, he did. That is a cynical way to look at it. For the
:41:57. > :42:02.moment, thank you very much indeed. Coming up, scandal. It started with
:42:02. > :42:05.phone hacking by the tabloid papers, then came the Leveson Inquiry. But
:42:05. > :42:10.could it be the law-abiding local press hit hardest by press
:42:10. > :42:14.regulation? And what price local democracy if
:42:14. > :42:19.the papers are not there to report it? That will be our talking point
:42:19. > :42:25.coming up later. It sounds like a contradiction in
:42:25. > :42:29.terms, but for one month only, lorries can use the Msix motorway
:42:29. > :42:33.free of charge. The owners of loss-making businesses are
:42:33. > :42:39.experimenting of ways of stemming the slide in the numbers using it,
:42:39. > :42:43.currently at an all-time low. Will a temporary loss leader for hauliers
:42:43. > :42:47.lead to a permanent nationalised free for all?
:42:47. > :42:51.The M6 toll opened a decade ago. It was hoped that more than 70,000
:42:51. > :42:55.vehicles that they would use it, but last year the daily average was half
:42:55. > :43:01.of that. This months trial are those members of the Road haulage
:43:01. > :43:09.Association to use it for free. is a good scheme. It needs to carry
:43:09. > :43:17.on. If we were using the tall everyday, we would be paying out
:43:17. > :43:23.around �440 per day. During the day, it costs �5 50 for a car and �11 for
:43:23. > :43:27.an HGV. For some that is too much. only use it if I am going for work
:43:27. > :43:33.because the boss pays for it. would have to be virtually free for
:43:33. > :43:39.me to use it. There have been calls for the M6
:43:39. > :43:42.toll to be taken into public ownership from UKIP and the West
:43:42. > :43:47.Midlands transport organisation. Their Chief Executive thinks a
:43:47. > :43:51.change of ownership could be a boost to the region's economy. When you
:43:51. > :43:56.look at the cost of congestion to business in particular, we are
:43:56. > :44:01.looking at maybe �3 billion per year, and if we can bring that down
:44:01. > :44:08.by one half, business will benefit by �1.5 billion per year, that is a
:44:08. > :44:18.big amber for businesses in the West millions -- West Midlands.
:44:18. > :44:18.
:44:19. > :44:23.From August, the charges will better transport says the M6 toll
:44:23. > :44:27.has been a complete failure, it has not benefited the economy and has
:44:27. > :44:31.not eased congestion. Apart from that it is going really well.
:44:31. > :44:38.debate has been going on for years. I appeared on this programme years
:44:38. > :44:41.ago many years ago to see this road was a daft idea.
:44:41. > :44:48.Privately, the Transport Secretary at the time said to me, I think it
:44:48. > :44:52.is a daft idea, as well, but it is Mrs Thatcher's pet project.
:44:52. > :44:55.I think that Midland motorways, who own it, have the lease in
:44:55. > :45:02.perpetuity. I don't know how you will take it off them or how much it
:45:02. > :45:10.will cost the taxpayer. I don't go for the Norman can tell us.
:45:10. > :45:13.could see it as an investment, or maybe partial public ownership, that
:45:13. > :45:18.organisation says it is taking almost �3 billion out of the economy
:45:18. > :45:24.saw easing that and having a proportion as Michael up with --
:45:24. > :45:28.having a proportion of public ownership would be an investment.
:45:28. > :45:35.would love that. I would say that it is daft at the moment to have a
:45:35. > :45:43.section of motorway as a bypass then charging extra for it. And after
:45:43. > :45:50.idea from when you were in the cabinet, Norman? -- a daft idea.
:45:50. > :45:54.knew I would get blamed! We are where we are. It was not one of my
:45:54. > :46:03.proposals, but I think it was worth doing. Peter raises the important
:46:03. > :46:08.and crucial point, but how much does public ownership cost? It will cost
:46:08. > :46:13.a vast amount of money. If the economy and the government has that
:46:13. > :46:17.are made of money, I want it going into infrastructure projects which
:46:17. > :46:23.will create jobs. -- that amount of money. I don't want it being used in
:46:23. > :46:33.a dead way in this report. Infrastructure problems including a
:46:33. > :46:37.link from the M6 toll to the M 54. Apparently there are debts of over
:46:37. > :46:41.�1 billion plus they would have to stump up over �100 million towards
:46:41. > :46:46.that motorway road. They are content to let congestion continue on the
:46:46. > :46:51.M6. Is that reasonable? I am not going to try and run this road for
:46:51. > :46:55.them, but the government has choices. The choice at this
:46:55. > :46:58.particular time is whether there are going to use some very rare capital
:46:58. > :47:03.in actually buying it back, or whether they are going to put it
:47:03. > :47:11.into something more productive. would not make sense to take it as
:47:11. > :47:15.part of the road network. A major shareholder is McQuarrie, an
:47:15. > :47:21.Australian finance company. It shows the barmy way of financing it in the
:47:21. > :47:25.first place. So far, the debate about press
:47:25. > :47:29.regulation has been mainly about the nationals. Lord Fowler, former
:47:29. > :47:33.chairman of Midland Independent newspapers, once the government to
:47:33. > :47:36.get on with its plans for a regulator, but only last week it
:47:36. > :47:40.emerged they were being soft pedalled while rival scheme is
:47:40. > :47:44.considered for the industry to regulate itself. The irony is that
:47:45. > :47:54.local papers, who did not act anyone's phones, could be hit
:47:55. > :47:59.
:47:59. > :48:02.addition of Stoke-on-Trent's main daily newspaper, the centre, arrives
:48:02. > :48:09.at newsagents. It has been serving the people of North Staffordshire
:48:09. > :48:12.since 1854. People believe we fight their battles and campaign for them,
:48:12. > :48:17.and over the years we have given them a voice. If this paper did not
:48:17. > :48:21.exist they would not have that voice. Despite the proud history,
:48:21. > :48:26.local newspapers have not escaped the Leveson Inquiry. They along with
:48:26. > :48:30.the rest of the industry have rejected his recommendations.
:48:30. > :48:35.Levinson should look at the national press in isolation, they are of the
:48:35. > :48:43.bad boys, we are not. -- the Leveson Inquiry should look at.
:48:43. > :48:46.The inquiry was set up after hacking scandals which took in a host of
:48:46. > :48:50.celebrities and murder victims' families. Tom Watson was one of the
:48:50. > :48:58.leading figures in the battle to bring the press, the Murdoch press
:48:58. > :49:07.in particular, to heal. You must be the first Mafia boss to
:49:07. > :49:10.not know his operation's activities. I think that is unfair.
:49:10. > :49:13.Almost everything that happened that led to the Leveson Inquiry was a
:49:13. > :49:19.criminal act. It could have been covered by
:49:19. > :49:23.criminal law. There is no need in order internet, global world for a
:49:23. > :49:29.series of best regulations which look at national media. It just
:49:29. > :49:34.won't work and is doomed to failure. But is it fair to treat the
:49:34. > :49:38.generally well-behaved local press in the same way as the red tops?
:49:38. > :49:41.they are operating good practice it will not be a burden, it will be a
:49:41. > :49:45.benefit because the public know they can trust the journalism they are
:49:45. > :49:49.producing. All this comes at a time newspaper circulations have been
:49:49. > :49:59.plummeting. Over the last ten years, the sentinel's circulation has been
:49:59. > :50:00.
:50:00. > :50:06.cut in half. In ten years the figure is down 45%. It is a figure that is
:50:06. > :50:10.typical of many local papers. At the moment, the main parties are in
:50:10. > :50:14.rough agreement they need to be tough new rules, but the papers
:50:14. > :50:18.themselves are proposing their own regulator, leaving deadlock, making
:50:18. > :50:23.the future for local papers look even more uncertain.
:50:23. > :50:27.We will have more about Tom Watson later.
:50:27. > :50:35.We are also joined today by the media commentator and consultant,
:50:35. > :50:40.Steve Dyson, former editor of the Birmingham mail, who spent 20 years
:50:40. > :50:45.in the regional newspaper industry. How serious is the threat this poses
:50:45. > :50:50.for local papers? RV scaremongering? -- RV scaremongering?
:50:50. > :50:54.I don't think so. The local press holds people to
:50:54. > :51:00.account at a very local level. They make sure the public is listened to
:51:00. > :51:05.and act as a watchdog. Yet if the full edition happens as a result of
:51:05. > :51:10.the Levinson inquiry, the potential cost will be catastrophic for local
:51:10. > :51:14.and regional press. -- if the fool legislation. They will have to pay
:51:14. > :51:18.the same amount as the national press. One of the things that may
:51:18. > :51:21.endanger them is the bravery of the local press to stand up for the
:51:21. > :51:26.local public. Will they do that if they are threatened with crippling
:51:26. > :51:31.costs? Surely if they have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear?
:51:31. > :51:33.It is a guarantee of proper journalistic conduct, surely good
:51:34. > :51:38.newspapers will really go through this without any particular
:51:39. > :51:42.difficulty? What the regional industry would say
:51:42. > :51:46.is why involve them at all thank you Michael at the moment the regional
:51:46. > :51:49.newspapers are very beholden to the press complaints commission. They
:51:49. > :51:55.take it very seriously and people are able to complain to that system
:51:55. > :51:58.and they get their just deserts, there are treated properly. Why
:51:58. > :52:02.involve the local press at all to why can we not have a system where
:52:02. > :52:07.the local press are still look after something like -- by something like
:52:07. > :52:11.the PCC. It has been said the locals are
:52:11. > :52:18.getting the brunt of it, there is a real sense of bitterness there in
:52:18. > :52:22.the in the street, isn't there a two there is -- isn't there?
:52:22. > :52:25.There is, we want to undermine it, things like Millie Dowler and
:52:25. > :52:31.Madeline McCann had nothing to do with the local and regional
:52:31. > :52:36.newspapers. It was a national problem. Norman, a national problem
:52:36. > :52:40.being visited on the locals. Isn't there a point that in the internet
:52:40. > :52:46.age you really cannot lift out the papers and treat them artificial
:52:46. > :52:52.place separately? The criminal law would have got this anyway?
:52:52. > :52:57.I don't accept that argument that criminal law would have taken it.
:52:58. > :53:03.What has been evidenced by the Leveson Inquiry is the degree of
:53:03. > :53:09.corruption there has been in some newspapers. I totally agree that
:53:09. > :53:13.local and regional press have many -- in many ways much higher
:53:13. > :53:18.standards, but the government has to deal with the scandal at the moment.
:53:18. > :53:24.The fact of the matter is that we have had something like 40 people
:53:24. > :53:31.charged, over 100 arrests, that is what we are doing. I don't think it
:53:31. > :53:34.can be just swept away. I was a journalist, not just chairman of
:53:34. > :53:38.Midland Independent news, I started as a journalist. I came into
:53:38. > :53:42.journalism because I thought journalism was something about
:53:42. > :53:45.exposing wrongdoing, you are getting into serious trouble when you get to
:53:45. > :53:50.a position where it is the newspaper or some of the newspapers who are
:53:50. > :53:56.doing the wrong doing. I think we can see in this
:53:56. > :53:59.discussion how politicians have been fooled by public opinion -- pooled
:53:59. > :54:03.by public opinion and the newspaper industry. What is the way through
:54:03. > :54:10.this? I think we have to implement what
:54:10. > :54:15.the Leveson Inquiry says. When I was elected in 1974 there were two
:54:15. > :54:19.thriving newspapers, the Birmingham evening mail and the West
:54:19. > :54:23.Staffordshire evening Star. Both had offices in West Bromwich,
:54:23. > :54:26.experienced journalists who knew what they were doing. The fact is
:54:26. > :54:30.there are very few local papers any more, they are owned by big
:54:30. > :54:33.conglomerates, experienced journalists are let go and younger,
:54:33. > :54:39.something is unqualified people are employed. The crucial point is,
:54:39. > :54:43.because of that, the regional press takes much of its news from what is
:54:43. > :54:46.happening in local newspapers and some of the lies and distortion and
:54:46. > :54:52.corruption Norman was talking about in the national papers has been
:54:52. > :54:56.reflected at local level, too. do you make of Mick Temple's other
:54:56. > :54:59.points that you cannot realistically in the electronic age regulate the
:54:59. > :55:05.newspapers separately from all the rest of the Citizen journalism,
:55:05. > :55:09.blogs and the rest of it? I agree there are problems on the
:55:09. > :55:13.internet and things of that kind, but you already have systems
:55:13. > :55:23.frolicking at complaints and standards, for example the BBC has a
:55:23. > :55:23.
:55:23. > :55:27.very strict code of restriction on and impartiality. I think, frankly,
:55:27. > :55:32.the press proprietors, remember the National union of journalists are in
:55:33. > :55:36.favour of the Leveson Inquiry. It is the proprietors against it. The
:55:36. > :55:39.difference, I will not go into it because it will send everyone boggle
:55:39. > :55:44.eyed, but the difference between what the government and Parliament
:55:44. > :55:48.are saying and what the press proprietors are saying is not
:55:48. > :55:51.fantastic. We're having a ridiculously big debate on a small
:55:51. > :55:55.amount of ground. Peter raised the point about the
:55:55. > :55:57.role of local papers, thinking about local democracy and council
:55:57. > :56:04.meetings, a key part of accountability.
:56:04. > :56:08.This is a real concern, isn't it? There is, but I would compare local
:56:08. > :56:18.newspapers and nationals to local MPs and national MPs. Would you have
:56:18. > :56:19.
:56:19. > :56:21.a different set of regulations for MPs and local councillors? No, you
:56:21. > :56:25.would not. Fascinating stuff, and we could go
:56:25. > :56:33.on all day for this, but we have to draw a halt today. For the moment,
:56:33. > :56:38.thank you. By the way, the new editor of the
:56:38. > :56:44.Shropshire Star, Martin Wright, is due in the hot seat on BBC Radio
:56:44. > :56:51.Shropshire. How will he deal with falling circulations and the Leveson
:56:51. > :57:01.Report? Our regular 62nd round up of the
:57:01. > :57:05.
:57:05. > :57:09.politics in the Midlands brought to been created by Stoke city council
:57:09. > :57:14.to fix the 3000 bottles left by winter's bad weather. Brand-new
:57:14. > :57:17.trams are heading this way from Spain. They will run on an extension
:57:17. > :57:23.to the Midlands metro network past Birmingham new Street station.
:57:23. > :57:28.John and Maureen's home has been demolished by the council after they
:57:28. > :57:31.did not have the proper planning permission. It is not something the
:57:31. > :57:35.council takes lightly or does very often and it is a very reluctant
:57:35. > :57:43.step. Unfortunately in this case, we did not have much option.
:57:43. > :57:45.There have been calls to ban Chinese lanterns following a huge fire at a
:57:45. > :57:49.recycling plant in Smethwick. 13 firefighters were injured, the
:57:49. > :57:53.cost of the damage was around �6 million.
:57:53. > :57:56.And Labour MP Tom Watson has resigned from his Shadow Cabinet
:57:56. > :58:02.role as general election coordinator. He has been embroiled
:58:02. > :58:07.in a row about candidate selection in Falkirk.
:58:07. > :58:15.Tom Watson's predecessor in West Bromwich each was -- West Bromwich
:58:15. > :58:19.East was none other than Peter Snape. In particularly a marginal
:58:19. > :58:25.region like ours, vote rigging, rent a mob tactics, it is what you don't
:58:25. > :58:28.need in a region like ours at a time like this, isn't it? It was
:58:28. > :58:35.completely ill -- exaggerated by certain elements of the press.
:58:35. > :58:38.People have always tried to get favoured candidates, Nadhim Zahawi
:58:38. > :58:46.was not the favoured candidate of the Conservatives, he was parachuted
:58:46. > :58:49.Are you averse to the use of a parachute in the Labour ranks?
:58:49. > :58:53.In politics, if people turn up at meetings they occasionally get their
:58:53. > :58:58.own way. All parties use the parachute, the
:58:58. > :59:04.Tories have a relation with business... It is not the parachute
:59:04. > :59:07.people were concerned with it is the fact that one union went off and
:59:07. > :59:12.joined up 100 people, paid their subscriptions so they could be
:59:12. > :59:16.voting. That is extraordinary. were suspended from the Party for
:59:16. > :59:20.doing it. They were, but if Peter wants to
:59:20. > :59:24.demonstrate to the country that this is all fine and above board, why
:59:24. > :59:29.does he not have the independent investigation that Mr McCluskey is
:59:29. > :59:33.looking for? That may well happen, but Tom has
:59:33. > :59:37.paid the price and resigned, and I regret that because I am an admirer
:59:37. > :59:45.of my successor. We could continue but I regret to say this is the
:59:45. > :59:50.point where the crop has beaten us. I thank Norman Fowler and Peter
:59:50. > :59:54.Snape, next week we will be posing the really big question - how
:59:54. > :59:58.European are you due Michael with under one year to go until the
:59:58. > :00:03.European elections it is possibly the great defining question of our
:00:03. > :00:08.times, but would our part of the country be better off or worse off
:00:08. > :00:14.out of the EU? Next week we will hear the arguments for and against,
:00:14. > :00:18.and I will be joined by MPs Margot James and Jack draw me, as well as