:00:38. > :00:44.Morning, folks, welcome to the Sunday Politics. And in-out EU
:00:44. > :00:48.referendum before the general election? We talk to the Tory rebel
:00:48. > :00:53.demanding one next year, that is our top story. As government ministers
:00:53. > :00:54.prepare to decide how the press should be regulated, what will be
:00:54. > :00:57.the impact of this week's row should be regulated, what will be
:00:57. > :01:05.between the Daily Mail and Ed Miliband?
:01:05. > :01:17.In the Midlands, missing the train peoples faces?!
:01:17. > :02:01.In the Midlands, missing the train in England was like in the county
:02:01. > :02:07.He will try to force a vote in the October. Home Secretary Theresa
:02:07. > :02:10.He will try to force a vote in the was asked about his plans on the BBC
:02:11. > :02:18.earlier this morning. I think he has got it wrong, I think what we need
:02:18. > :02:23.to do is to negotiate the settlement with the European Union and then put
:02:23. > :02:29.that to the people me to decide whether to be in or out. Is this a
:02:29. > :02:38.flea bite or a real threat? I think the next election, a Conservative
:02:38. > :02:41.Party that will be offering people that renegotiation, a new settlement
:02:41. > :02:46.with Europe, looking to the future and putting that to the British
:02:46. > :02:48.people in and in or out referendum. And what the amendment possibly
:02:48. > :02:51.could do, as James Wharton, who And what the amendment possibly
:02:51. > :02:56.putting the Referendum Bill through Parliament has said, is it could
:02:56. > :03:02.jeopardise that bill. Adam Afriyie joins us now from Millbank studio.
:03:02. > :03:06.Good morning. If the referendum would be held next October, it would
:03:06. > :03:13.have to be an in-out question based the status quo? There wouldn't be
:03:13. > :03:18.time for a full renegotiation. I disagree. By having a referendum in
:03:18. > :03:21.2014, it gives us 12 months to renegotiate, but it kick-started
:03:21. > :03:24.negotiations, because the European Union, if they wish us to remain
:03:24. > :03:27.and make changes so that they would members, would need to accommodate
:03:27. > :03:32.and make changes so that they would persuade the British public to stay,
:03:32. > :03:36.strengthens the Prime Minister's hand, and 12 months is ample time
:03:36. > :03:40.for that kind of negotiation. You might think that, but Germany has
:03:40. > :03:44.not even got a government at the moment, why should they meet our
:03:44. > :03:46.timetable? This is going to be incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:46. > :03:53.think, basically, 80% of people incredibly, located renegotiation. I
:03:53. > :03:57.a referendum. More than 50% what a election. British businesses need
:03:57. > :03:58.certainty, and we could carry on taking a scan down the road for
:03:58. > :04:02.ever, but I have struggled with taking a scan down the road for
:04:02. > :04:06.conscience over this one. I do not want to cause trouble, but it is
:04:06. > :04:09.essential that Parliament and MPs have the opportunity to search their
:04:09. > :04:13.souls and give people a referendum this side of the election. That
:04:13. > :04:18.would also bring certainty and clarity for the future, and like I
:04:18. > :04:20.said, it strengthens the Prime Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:20. > :04:24.You right in the Mail on Sunday Minister's hand if it is successful.
:04:24. > :04:28.the people are not convinced there even will be a referendum, so they
:04:28. > :04:32.don't trust David Cameron? I think the headline was not the headline I
:04:32. > :04:39.wrote for that piece. What I am You are saying that the British
:04:39. > :04:42.people are not convinced. Look, there are too many uncertainties
:04:42. > :04:46.here - they may not be convinced the Conservatives will win the election,
:04:46. > :04:48.I hope we will, they may not be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:48. > :04:53.good enough, that there will be convinced the renegotiation will be
:04:53. > :04:58.referendum. Do you trust David That is why we need to bring the
:04:58. > :05:02.referendum forward, there is time to negotiate, and we tidy up the issue
:05:02. > :05:07.that has been hanging around for too long. Do you trust David Cameron to
:05:07. > :05:16.deliver a referendum in 2017? I Minister, and of course I trust
:05:16. > :05:17.deliver a referendum in 2017? I referendum? There as only variables
:05:17. > :05:21.in between. What I am doing with referendum? There as only variables
:05:21. > :05:24.this amendment, is to try to be referendum? There as only variables
:05:24. > :05:25.is that Parliament and every MP referendum? There as only variables
:05:25. > :05:29.the opportunity decide whether they want to be sure of a referendum
:05:29. > :05:33.within this parliament, or maybe leave it to the vagaries of what may
:05:33. > :05:37.within this parliament, or maybe happen in 2015. Supposing you got
:05:37. > :05:39.your way, how would you vote? Like Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:39. > :05:43.leave as of today, but there will be Michael Gove, I would vote for us to
:05:43. > :05:44.an enormous amount of pressure on European Union leaders to come
:05:44. > :05:48.forward with proposals. If they European Union leaders to come
:05:48. > :05:50.to say, the mandate is not ever closer political union, it is ever
:05:50. > :05:56.closer trading harmony, giving us closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:56. > :05:57.more border control and control closer trading harmony, giving us
:05:57. > :06:00.our legal system, I might change my mind. But this is what needs to
:06:00. > :06:05.happen - if we have a referendum in happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:05. > :06:08.negotiations to be kick-started happen - if we have a referendum in
:06:08. > :06:12.people to argue in or out, and the end result is a stronger Prime
:06:12. > :06:15.Minister. Is it true that you have end result is a stronger Prime
:06:15. > :06:20.Minister. Is it true that you have got about 80 MPs supporting this? It
:06:20. > :06:24.certain, and I think we will see it on hold over the next three or five
:06:24. > :06:30.weeks. He will have to ask each individual MP. I am asking you,
:06:30. > :06:36.is your motion! There will be other motions coming forward, and I know
:06:36. > :06:40.cross-party, for people who want the British public to have a say in
:06:40. > :06:45.2014. You know it is not going to get through, the whips will stop
:06:45. > :06:49.this from happening. One of the successes, apparently, of your
:06:49. > :06:51.party's Manchester conference was that you were not divided over
:06:51. > :06:56.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was settled. Here you are bringing it
:06:56. > :07:00.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was back to life and pouring petrol
:07:00. > :07:03.Europe anymore, the Europe issue was unlicensed troublemaker of the
:07:03. > :07:06.Tories? The only struggle I have had is not a fight with my party but
:07:06. > :07:07.Tories? The only struggle I have had with my conscience as to whether or
:07:07. > :07:10.not I would give Parliament and with my conscience as to whether or
:07:10. > :07:15.British people an opportunity to have a say in 2014. I wrestled with
:07:15. > :07:19.it, and I decided I wanted people to have that opportunity. It is for
:07:19. > :07:22.each individual MP to search their soul, speak to constituents and
:07:22. > :07:28.decide whether they want that. You decided it would get you in the
:07:28. > :07:29.headlines again. Oh, you are so cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:29. > :07:38.publicity seeker. All I seek is cynical, Andrew! I have no ambition
:07:38. > :07:39.would not be able to sleep at night if I did not bring forward this
:07:39. > :07:44.opportunity for Britain to have if I did not bring forward this
:07:44. > :07:49.say. We have left it far too long. Nobody under the age of 56 has had a
:07:49. > :07:52.say. Thanks for joining us, good luck with this continuing struggle
:07:52. > :07:56.with your conscience! I will move the seat around and addressed the
:07:56. > :07:57.panel, what do you make of it? The party managers must be furious with
:07:57. > :08:02.him. I think what this confirms party managers must be furious with
:08:02. > :08:10.that David Cameron is incredibly lucky in his enemies. His most
:08:10. > :08:14.prolific critics, Nadine Dorries, Peter Bone, Adam Afriyie, even if
:08:14. > :08:18.you are very anti-Cameron, you will not think, man, if only they were in
:08:18. > :08:24.charge of the party! I think the party managers are not too alarmed.
:08:24. > :08:29.They do not take him seriously? No, is not as if the James Wharton bill
:08:29. > :08:33.is a work of genius, it is riddled with flaws, anomalies and loopholes.
:08:33. > :08:37.It purports to guarantee that a referendum will take place in the
:08:37. > :08:39.next Parliament. My understanding of theoretically impossible and that
:08:39. > :08:42.all the future government would theoretically impossible and that
:08:42. > :08:45.is cancel out that bill with another bill. He does have a point that
:08:45. > :08:51.Cameron's plan for a referendum bill. He does have a point that
:08:51. > :08:59.nothing like as likely to happen... dangerous. The problem for David
:09:00. > :09:04.Cameron is twofold. One, if Ed Miliband says he's going to support
:09:04. > :09:07.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. Unlikely that Ed Miliband would
:09:07. > :09:11.Adam Afriyie, it will go through. that, but what he might do is say to
:09:11. > :09:15.his MPs, ignore this. It may well be significant number of Labour MPs do
:09:15. > :09:22.not turn up, and then what you have Conservative backbenchers, and in
:09:22. > :09:28.that war you might well find that through, and then the Prime Minister
:09:28. > :09:35.has real trouble, because Adam Afriyie says, the Prime Minister
:09:35. > :09:39.membership, up what basis and with which mandate? He would not be able
:09:39. > :09:41.to get agreement with Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:41. > :09:49.think he is a Labour mole, that Ed Miliband, so you would be looking
:09:49. > :09:50.what I have come to, a Daily Mail style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:50. > :09:55.not be more perfect. The prospect of style conspiracy theory, it could
:09:55. > :10:02.a referendum on the EU at the same time as Scottish independence is
:10:02. > :10:08.has told us he could not sleep at conscience. We could send him some
:10:08. > :10:11.pills, I suppose. We know he's going to sack all those lieutenants were
:10:11. > :10:16.going around and saying he is the great future and the next leader of
:10:16. > :10:21.the Conservative Party. He denied doing that! He would be amazed to
:10:21. > :10:27.hear you say that, this is a crisis conversations in corridors, quite an
:10:27. > :10:32.operation to get letters into Graham Brady, he said to have letters,
:10:32. > :10:34.operation to get letters into Graham 46, but at the moment this campaign
:10:34. > :10:44.is being run by Lieutenant of Adam They are disaffected and not happy
:10:44. > :10:49.under David Cameron's leadership. There is a whole army of them! I am
:10:49. > :10:52.pleased he has outmanoeuvred the awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:52. > :10:58.is saying, you're going to kill awkward squad, and now James Wharton
:10:58. > :11:03.bill. I do not think they are very competence lieutenants. The main
:11:03. > :11:08.episode is it will unify a large Conservative Party behind David
:11:08. > :11:13.Cameron. On what they hope is a settled position. We still hope
:11:14. > :11:16.Cameron. On what they hope is a be talking to John Prescott, who is
:11:16. > :11:21.in hole, if you see him, pointing in the direction of the BBC studios! Do
:11:21. > :11:26.you want to buy a house? Can you afford the mortgage repayments but
:11:26. > :11:28.not the 20% or 30% deposit the mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:28. > :11:31.you? The Government says it has mortgage provider is demanding from
:11:31. > :11:38.scheme designed for you which is in launching next week, help to buy,
:11:38. > :11:43.re-emergence of 95% mortgages, remember them?! But is the policy
:11:43. > :11:45.really good for home-buyers or the British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:45. > :11:50.Never mind who lives in a house British economy? Here is Giles.
:11:50. > :11:53.this, who can afford to buy a house these days? The Government would
:11:53. > :11:54.this, who can afford to buy a house like many more people to be able to
:11:54. > :11:56.without putting down a crippling like many more people to be able to
:11:56. > :11:59.without putting down a crippling amount of money as a deposit, and in
:11:59. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the government has launched help to
:12:04. > :12:04.the spirit of rights to buy, the confusingly it is the name for two
:12:04. > :12:25.been running since April. Help to government are bringing it in early.
:12:25. > :12:29.Let's get in on the inside and take a good look around at what this
:12:29. > :12:34.scheme actually has to offer. And why the Government thinks it really
:12:34. > :12:40.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity loan scheme. The idea, nice, is
:12:40. > :12:41.works. Help to Buy 1 was an equity it was for new build only, up to a
:12:41. > :12:47.value of £600,000. But it is Help to value of £600,000. But it is Help to
:12:47. > :12:51.Buy 2 that everyone is looking into right now. It is for any property up
:12:51. > :12:58.to a value, again, of £600,000. right now. It is for any property up
:12:58. > :13:00.time the Government is guaranteeing that it will take on the first
:13:00. > :13:04.losses should the home owner in that it will take on the first
:13:04. > :13:08.future failed to make their mortgage payments. Don't worry about that, if
:13:08. > :13:12.you are a buyer, you are going to be concerned about coming up with the
:13:12. > :13:18.5% deposit and 95% mortgages will be available again in participating
:13:18. > :13:26.banks and building societies. And a housing prime mover. You cannot
:13:26. > :13:30.get training to 5% mortgage anymore, 90% even, so there are couples in
:13:30. > :13:33.our country who have good jobs, decent incomes, they could afford
:13:33. > :13:42.the mortgage payments but they failure in our banking market. So
:13:42. > :13:44.Jonathan, but I guess for you this is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:44. > :13:50.main impact of this scheme will is not Homes Under The Hammer, but a
:13:51. > :13:55.to push up prices, who does that benefit? Mostly rich and all the
:13:55. > :14:00.people who own their houses. Plus the banks, of course, because it is
:14:00. > :14:03.a subsidy for them. Who loses? People who want to buy a house in
:14:04. > :14:09.the future. Moreover, it is a bit odd that the Government says it
:14:09. > :14:11.the future. Moreover, it is a bit not OK to borrow to finance schools
:14:11. > :14:23.or roads, but it is fine for the effectively, in order to guarantee
:14:23. > :14:27.housing market. 2.3 million? I do not think Help to Buy covers that.
:14:27. > :14:34.But enter a would-be buyer, will they now be seeing a plethora of
:14:34. > :14:41.help to buy mortgages? In a word, no. David Cameron has brought the
:14:41. > :14:45.months, and banks were not ready at that stage. Two banks have committed
:14:45. > :14:50.to fund the scheme, the Lloyds group and the RBS group, so lenders like
:14:50. > :14:53.Halifax, RBS and NatWest. They will be doing the scheme, but even once
:14:53. > :15:00.the scheme is up and running you are probably find 95% mortgages on the
:15:00. > :15:10.high street because of the guarantee the government is offering. People
:15:10. > :15:14.might say this is how we got into a mess in the first place. Why would
:15:14. > :15:20.the government want to make those products available then now? It
:15:20. > :15:22.the government want to make those more what investment banks were
:15:22. > :15:28.doing in the background that caused performed extremely well through the
:15:28. > :15:35.depths of the downturn. Is this performed extremely well through the
:15:35. > :15:37.game changer? Yes, I have done my best to save over the last few years
:15:37. > :15:42.but this has enabled me to make best to save over the last few years
:15:42. > :15:47.first purchase. How frustrating best to save over the last few years
:15:48. > :15:53.it just renting? Very frustrating, you are throwing away money hand
:15:53. > :16:01.over fist, and now I can take that enthusiasm raises a question back at
:16:01. > :16:07.the flat. If you are looking for a 95% mortgage, you don't really care
:16:07. > :16:14.economy, you are thinking, great, I can buy a house. Yes, if I was a
:16:14. > :16:21.house buyer or a bank, I would be pleased, but it will do longer term
:16:21. > :16:25.economic damage. The tricky steps the government are trying to pull
:16:25. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so grateful for the opportunity to
:16:32. > :16:32.off is that home-buyers might be so their own homes that they reward the
:16:32. > :16:35.Government with the vote, while their own homes that they reward the
:16:35. > :16:52.the same time the Government tries to sidestep consequences that such a
:16:52. > :16:57.Now Conservative MP Margot James, and Allister Heath, editor of City
:16:57. > :17:04.It is said by the critics that this scheme will cause a housing bubble.
:17:04. > :17:18.Where is the evidence? House prices are more varied. Housing not just in
:17:18. > :17:22.London remains overvalued and the problem with this scheme is that it
:17:22. > :17:31.will pump up house prices, it will therefore houses will become even
:17:31. > :17:35.more overvalued. That is a dangerous territory, last time it ended in
:17:35. > :17:42.tears, and now the Government is taking on the risk of that policy.
:17:42. > :17:44.What do you say to that? We have a real problem, it takes people on
:17:44. > :17:55.average until they are 38 years real problem, it takes people on
:17:55. > :17:59.property. The problem is not that they cannot afford it, but they
:17:59. > :18:03.cannot afford the deposit. We have got to do something to allow people
:18:03. > :18:08.to get their feet on the property ladder and I don't agree it will
:18:08. > :18:23.cause a boom in house prices. It would if we were not building any
:18:23. > :18:33.have had a record this year, 12 months to right now, the record
:18:33. > :18:34.have had a record this year, 12 the last ten years. These are not
:18:34. > :18:40.the statistics I have seen, but the last ten years. These are not
:18:41. > :18:46.new supply is coming up. It is starting to creep up. We don't see
:18:46. > :18:50.enough house building, need to build more houses and that is a solution
:18:50. > :18:54.to this problem. You are right, people cannot afford to buy homes
:18:54. > :19:00.and the reason is there are not enough good quality homes in the
:19:00. > :19:04.deposits are so high is because secondly the Government has passed
:19:04. > :19:08.laws to make the banking system secondly the Government has passed
:19:08. > :19:16.prudent, telling them to put more wrong. Now suddenly the Government
:19:16. > :19:19.is not happy with the outcome of its own rules and is trying to create
:19:19. > :19:26.these subsidies to circumvent the rules it has put in place. It is not
:19:26. > :19:32.a subsidy. Don't forget banks have to pay a charge in order to take
:19:32. > :19:39.part in this loan scheme and that the... You are guaranteeing the
:19:39. > :19:42.money. Yes, but the fear is worked out on a commercial basis. The
:19:42. > :19:49.taxpayer is protected. Why? You out on a commercial basis. The
:19:49. > :19:54.guaranteeing £12 billion worth of mortgages per year. Yes but the
:19:54. > :20:00.change in the whole mortgage basis has been made a few years ago in
:20:00. > :20:03.response of the crash. They made the distressed test on people applying
:20:03. > :20:13.for mortgages much higher and you twice... So it will not be like
:20:13. > :20:19.these self certification mortgages handed out in America that caused
:20:19. > :20:24.the sub-prime crisis? Pigment bit like that but the banks are rightly
:20:24. > :20:29.asking for bigger deposits, they know there is a big chance house
:20:29. > :20:33.prices could fall if interest rates eventually, so they are demanding
:20:33. > :20:38.bigger deposits. The Government eventually, so they are demanding
:20:38. > :20:41.circumventing this is being passed eventually, so they are demanding
:20:41. > :20:46.on to the taxpayers which is why it is a dangerous policy. Instead they
:20:46. > :20:54.should be massively accelerating Planning permission is much easier
:20:54. > :20:58.to get now, we have seen a 49% increase in planning permission
:20:58. > :20:59.to get now, we have seen a 49% a new building over the last year, a
:20:59. > :21:05.huge increase. In the figures I a new building over the last year, a
:21:05. > :21:09.recently, they showed new start a new building over the last year, a
:21:09. > :21:12.the 12 months to the autumn were only about 110,000 which is the
:21:12. > :21:17.figure you inherited, which was only about 110,000 which is the
:21:17. > :21:24.an all-time low in 2010. New house built in the last quarter are third
:21:24. > :21:29.up on the time last year. You have relaxation of planning laws and
:21:29. > :21:31.up on the time last year. You have other policies the Government put
:21:31. > :21:36.into effect last year to take effect and it is coming through now. I
:21:36. > :21:42.agree, if we weren't building more houses, if the construction sector
:21:42. > :21:49.advantage of the increased demand, there would be a risk. David Cameron
:21:49. > :21:57.says you are snob and it is only snobs who dislike Help To Buy. They
:21:57. > :22:03.don't have the bank of mum and dad, people like that will finally get on
:22:03. > :22:07.the housing ladder. That is complete nonsense. We need a sustainable
:22:07. > :22:11.housing market where there is a large amount of construction, like
:22:11. > :22:19.in the 1930s for example, where large numbers of proper family homes
:22:19. > :22:25.were being built for people. House prices were pushed down and people
:22:25. > :22:29.could afford houses. You are now encouraging people to take out a 95%
:22:29. > :22:38.mortgage, I thought that was a bad idea, so supposing interest rates go
:22:38. > :22:44.struggle, and supposing house prices fall by more than 5%, I am now faced
:22:44. > :22:49.with negative equity and soaring interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:49. > :22:55.95% mortgage, if you can afford interest rates that I cannot afford.
:22:55. > :23:00.repayments, you will be fine. What happens when interest rates rise?
:23:00. > :23:03.They have got to rise a lot before you get into trouble. People are
:23:03. > :23:09.already affording rent which is you get into trouble. People are
:23:09. > :23:16.lot higher than mortgage payments. You will not be able to get into
:23:16. > :23:20.this scheme unless you can afford repayments double what they are
:23:20. > :23:24.this scheme unless you can afford the moment. The Conservatives should
:23:24. > :23:30.limelight last week but there was an unwelcome intruder in the shape
:23:30. > :23:33.limelight last week but there was an row between Ed Miliband and the
:23:33. > :23:41.Daily Mail. Just over a week ago the claiming that Ed Miliband's Father
:23:41. > :23:48.Ralph hated Britain. They showed a picture of his father's gravestone
:23:48. > :23:52.with the caption, grave socialist. They then removed the photo and
:23:52. > :23:57.with the caption, grave socialist. Ed Miliband the right to reply on
:23:57. > :24:01.printed an editorial alongside it saying they stood by every word
:24:01. > :24:06.printed an editorial alongside it published an fair headline. It also
:24:06. > :24:11.reporter had gate-crashed a private memorial service for Ed Miliband's
:24:11. > :24:15.uncle in a London hospital, for which the paper has now apologised,
:24:15. > :24:23.but Ed Miliband has called on the hard look at the way his papers
:24:23. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the run. This comes a week before a
:24:31. > :24:31.but Ed Miliband has called on the Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:31. > :24:42.Prescott. Does this row between Joining us now from Hull, John
:24:42. > :24:49.reinforce the case for tough, new certainly influences the opinion
:24:50. > :24:53.about that but that is more of Paul Dacre's doing. Ed Miliband rang
:24:53. > :24:54.about that but that is more of Paul while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:54. > :24:59.sure my complaints were nothing while I was in Strasbourg making
:24:59. > :25:04.do with press regulation and he while I was in Strasbourg making
:25:04. > :25:07.right. This argument is not about politicians and media people, it is
:25:07. > :25:16.about ordinary people that love politicians and media people, it is
:25:16. > :25:21.and dealt with. All of these cases affected individual people and they
:25:21. > :25:26.are the ones that need to have justice in this matter. Next week we
:25:26. > :25:33.will be hearing whether the Privy Council will be reporting on the
:25:33. > :25:49.proposal to replace it. Are you agreeing then that what the mail did
:25:49. > :26:02.with its Miliband article was a matter of judgement? Yes, and the
:26:02. > :26:05.with its Miliband article was a conclusion that the relationship
:26:05. > :26:13.between the press, the police and politicians should be governed,
:26:13. > :26:18.between the press, the police and proposal given by half the press
:26:18. > :26:22.industry that that does not meet the Leveson requirement and I suspect
:26:22. > :26:26.the Privy Council this week will have to reject that, and I hope
:26:26. > :26:28.the Privy Council this week will will because it is not consistent
:26:28. > :26:34.with the Leveson report which the Prime Minister said he supported.
:26:34. > :26:40.You attacked the mail in your column today but your paper went through
:26:40. > :26:45.the Cameron family bins to see what nappies they used for their disabled
:26:45. > :26:46.son. Isn't that far more offensive than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:46. > :26:56.Ralph Miliband? It probably is, than what the Daily Mail wrote about
:26:56. > :27:09.couldn't defend that. I have had Haven't we all? Yes, but we are
:27:09. > :27:23.editors who acts unilaterally. Paul Dacre is running this thing in the
:27:23. > :27:33.judgement and some accountability which the press have accepted the
:27:33. > :27:37.old PCC is no good. They are playing for time because if they reject
:27:37. > :27:40.old PCC is no good. They are playing this week there is 12 months until
:27:40. > :27:43.you can consider a parliamentary alternative and then you are near
:27:43. > :27:48.the election and you begin to bully the leaders. That is how they have
:27:48. > :27:58.been successful in putting off recommendations. Maybe my memory is
:27:58. > :28:04.fading but did you or anybody else in the Labour Party object to the
:28:04. > :28:08.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't know about it. I would just say
:28:08. > :28:11.Sunday Mirror's behaviour? I didn't is wrong if that is what they did.
:28:11. > :28:17.As you said, you have the same position when they go through your
:28:17. > :28:21.rubbish bins, I think that is wrong. We have Leveson set up by the Prime
:28:22. > :28:25.Minister to look at the cultures and practices and the unilateral action
:28:25. > :28:39.of editors and he came forward with Parliament under a compromise of the
:28:39. > :28:44.frankly, but we have agreed to go frankly, but we have agreed to go
:28:44. > :28:51.Government set up in charge at the same time rushed through the press
:28:51. > :28:58.box? It looks like a fix, like they are using the Royal Charter as a
:28:58. > :29:02.means of delaying everything. They have now said they are going to
:29:02. > :29:08.introduce their own independent charter. This industry does not
:29:08. > :29:09.introduce their own independent accountability. We know Alistair
:29:09. > :29:13.Campbell and Ed Miliband's officers accountability. We know Alistair
:29:14. > :29:24.are working closely on the assault of the Mail. What is the endgame for
:29:24. > :29:39.this? Is it the head of Paul Dacre? He is not an acceptable character to
:29:39. > :29:44.account. When Ed Miliband rang me it regulation, he wanted the argument
:29:44. > :29:57.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband regulation, he wanted the argument
:29:57. > :29:59.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband after Paul Dacre's head? No, he
:29:59. > :30:01.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband stay there. It is like with Murdoch,
:30:01. > :30:06.of decency. Are you and Ed Miliband we were not attacking him but what
:30:06. > :30:12.extent, what they are doing about politicians who can look after
:30:12. > :30:16.themselves. We know, with the bad cases he had to deal with, they
:30:16. > :30:20.might get libel action, which the press say, but they pretty well
:30:20. > :30:25.destroyed their lives. That is about judgment. If you say, as Paul Dacre
:30:25. > :30:32.got good judgment? I would say no, Thank you for joining us, he did not
:30:32. > :30:36.even have to go to the BBC studios, we sent a truck there for him. What
:30:36. > :30:41.is the endgame in this? Whether we sent a truck there for him. What
:30:41. > :30:45.Labour Party is trying to make this an issue press regulation are not,
:30:45. > :30:49.this is where it is going. We have the criminal trial involving Andy
:30:49. > :30:52.Coulson coming up, the Privy Council discussing press radiation before
:30:52. > :30:59.question is, what is political unfashionable view, is that the
:30:59. > :31:12.total at yum elated political impact of the Leveson story over the past
:31:12. > :31:14.those who do care believe that all parties are roughly complicit in
:31:14. > :31:19.being too close to editors and proprietors. You said that Adam
:31:19. > :31:26.Afriyie was a Labour mould, with a smile. Is the Daily Mail also a
:31:26. > :31:30.Labour mole? This has been a dream for Ed Miliband, I took on Murdoch,
:31:30. > :31:34.I am taking on the energy companies and now the evil Daily Mail! I
:31:34. > :31:38.think... I should say I used to and now the evil Daily Mail! I
:31:38. > :31:42.for the Daily Mail, but when they printed the right of reply, they
:31:42. > :31:46.surrounded it with a big two fingers up at Ed. If they had not done
:31:46. > :31:49.surrounded it with a big two fingers that, they would not be in this
:31:49. > :31:52.position. The poll in the Sunday Times this morning shows 72% think
:31:53. > :31:58.the Daily Mail was wrong and backed Mr Miliband's demand for an apology.
:31:58. > :32:02.If you come to define and your dad, people are naturally going to do
:32:02. > :32:05.this, but it took all the coverage away from the Tory conference, the
:32:05. > :32:12.media loves covering itself, here we are doing it again, this has been a
:32:12. > :32:15.dream for Mr Miliband. The political significance of this is that David
:32:15. > :32:18.Cameron said in the House of Commons that he wanted to try to find some
:32:18. > :32:24.common ground between the three party Royal Charter and the
:32:24. > :32:28.so-called press industry version. What the Daily Mail has done is
:32:28. > :32:31.ensured that the Prime Minister is not going to be able to do that.
:32:31. > :32:35.What is going to happen this week is that the press Royal Charter has to
:32:35. > :32:41.be considered first, and that will probably be rejected. The Privy
:32:42. > :32:46.Council will reject it. Then the three party Royal Charter will come
:32:46. > :32:51.up, but meanwhile the press will set up their own regulatory body because
:32:51. > :32:52.the Royal Charter is not a proper statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:52. > :32:56.able to go ahead with that. There statutory underpinning, they will be
:32:56. > :33:01.will be the legal basis for the oversight of the oversight body, and
:33:01. > :33:07.it will basically just be an ambassador that will not be
:33:07. > :33:10.resolved. As you say, no-one much cares about this outside of the
:33:10. > :33:18.profession and a few media watchers. But this has been great politics for
:33:18. > :33:25.Ed Miliband. It is only great politics if he scores a great
:33:25. > :33:29.victory. I take your view that people are cynical about it. But the
:33:29. > :33:33.narrative is, I am the chap who stands up to vested interests. But
:33:33. > :33:36.all those vested interests are people that you would expect a
:33:36. > :33:45.left-wing politician to want to take on. It is also more significant
:33:45. > :33:48.about who he has stood up for, and the person he has studied for is his
:33:48. > :33:54.father. Maybe people thought of him as a Marxist, now they think of him
:33:54. > :34:00.as war hero. He gets to the crux of matters, you know! You are watching
:34:00. > :34:01.the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be
:34:01. > :34:22.Hello. Our guest today have speaking to Godfrey
:34:22. > :34:26.Hello. Our guest today have constituencies almost 80 miles apart
:34:26. > :34:31.and they are both in Birmingham. Andrew Mitchell, Conservative MP for
:34:31. > :34:37.Sutton Coldfield, four International development Secretary. 10,000 of his
:34:37. > :34:46.constituents have signed a petition asking for independence from
:34:46. > :34:50.Birmingham. Good to have you both with us. Andrew, I think we
:34:50. > :34:54.understand that you feel you can't really comment directly on the
:34:54. > :34:59.investigation into those events in Downing Street in September of last
:34:59. > :35:05.year. Given it is over 12 months since all that happened, obviously a
:35:05. > :35:11.considerable thing for you and your family, how are you coping? I should
:35:11. > :35:13.not conceal that it has been an extraordinary difficult year and
:35:13. > :35:17.taken a difficult toll on my family and on my family enemy. I have been
:35:17. > :35:26.getting on with looking after my constituents in Sutton Coldfield and
:35:26. > :35:28.I would like to express my deep gratitude for my friends who have
:35:28. > :35:32.given me support through this difficult time. There has been a bit
:35:32. > :35:37.of speculation about when this whole business will be over as it will
:35:37. > :35:48.be. Is this something that is on your horizon? Lets wait and see to
:35:49. > :35:52.see what happens. Richard, soon after the public prosecution said it
:35:52. > :35:55.was not good enough, Ken MacDonald said it was not good enough that
:35:55. > :36:01.Andrew and his family were being subjected to this long, drawn—out
:36:01. > :36:06.enquiry process. Jack Straw, Labour backbencher jumped in. What would be
:36:06. > :36:10.your view of this? It does seem to be taking an inordinately long time.
:36:10. > :36:13.All of us in public life, we have all been through what Andrew has
:36:13. > :36:19.been through, it is appalling to have this kind of thing hanging over
:36:19. > :36:23.you and an inability to tell your side of the story in till it is all
:36:24. > :36:28.finished. It has got to be brought to a conclusion as soon as possible.
:36:28. > :36:33.Why Jack Straw, I would like to give any my support. Ken MacDonald also
:36:33. > :36:42.said that this was an issue that went to the heart of the police
:36:42. > :36:46.service, is that how you see it? It shows the way that political debate
:36:46. > :36:53.goes. We have seen examples of that this week as well. All too often, it
:36:53. > :36:56.gets personalised on people that it comes to allegations about what this
:36:56. > :37:01.person has done or not done. Rather than concentrating on the issues. I
:37:01. > :37:07.think, sometimes pressure groups are responsible for that. Often the
:37:08. > :37:16.media, are responsible for that. I also have this day sometimes we —— I
:37:16. > :37:19.say that we as politicians are sometimes responsible. After the
:37:19. > :37:22.events of this week, we need to take a step back and look at the
:37:22. > :37:27.political atmosphere of the country, because these things return
:37:27. > :37:36.for people we represent. Zero Billy you welcome the support? Al A of
:37:36. > :37:41.course, I agree. I agree that people should abstain from character
:37:41. > :37:49.assassination and smears. Have you had time on your hands, have you
:37:49. > :37:53.been kicking your heels? I have been busy looking after my constituents,
:37:53. > :38:04.there are a raft of issues in Sutton Coldfield which are absorbing.
:38:04. > :38:09.Including the petition for people to go their own way, to separate from
:38:09. > :38:13.Birmingham. How seriously should we take that as a proposition? There is
:38:13. > :38:19.a strong feeling in certain that the way in which 1974 Sutton Coldfield
:38:19. > :38:24.ceased to be a royal borough and was put into Birmingham, was wrong. We
:38:24. > :38:30.live with that history and the question now is whether or not we
:38:30. > :38:33.can get back the original parts that we lost to Birmingham in a
:38:33. > :38:39.meaningful way. I am absolutely in favour of a referendum, I am in
:38:39. > :38:44.favour of now, a negotiation of what parts could be repatriated to Sutton
:38:44. > :38:51.Coldfield. I'm against a proposal which would be costly for Sutton
:38:51. > :38:54.Coldfield and would not return. I asked my constituents to look
:38:55. > :39:00.carefully before making a decision. We'll see. Coming up, why England's
:39:00. > :39:05.in the county with no direct rail link to London is missing its train.
:39:05. > :39:08.Three years after Shrewsbury and Telford vanish from the capital was
:39:08. > :39:16.'s timetable, is planned return remained stuck. We will have more on
:39:16. > :39:22.this later. We all know what ever closer union means think Stevie ——
:39:22. > :39:30.thanks to the European Union. Two of our police force are about to
:39:30. > :39:39.experience and that that themselves. Many wonder if it is the new
:39:39. > :39:43.stepping hitting mute budget Tigers. Achieved constables of Warwickshire
:39:43. > :39:45.and West Murthy are facing a future of closer cooperation. Budgets are
:39:45. > :39:52.being squeezed, tough decisions, taken. We have got training and the
:39:52. > :39:56.two forces are collaborating infiltrating and firearms. They say
:39:56. > :40:00.is the best way, appalling resources. After all, this is an
:40:00. > :40:05.alliance driven by cuts are not choice. This is the minds at work,
:40:05. > :40:09.officers from both forces sitting side by side for a training session.
:40:09. > :40:13.Does not feel like a cost—cutting exercise, it feels like designing
:40:13. > :40:17.the best service we can in taking the best of both. The alliance has
:40:17. > :40:24.been formed to save £30 million of the next two years. By 2015, it will
:40:24. > :40:33.mean a total of 661 post going, 227 police officers. They'll be more
:40:33. > :40:37.mobile police stations. The police Federation say it reflects the new
:40:37. > :40:40.fiscal realities. In an ideal world, we would have a properly funded
:40:40. > :40:46.police service, that is not the case. The alliance is a way that we
:40:46. > :40:51.can maintain policing as much as possible but still save some of the
:40:51. > :40:56.money that is necessary. Inevitably the alliance has increased
:40:56. > :41:03.regulation about a fuel merger in the future. We think there needs to
:41:03. > :41:06.be a debate about what the future of the alliances. Should we merge in
:41:06. > :41:11.the future? Is a summit we want to consult the public on, because it is
:41:11. > :41:16.an important step. Are they out of step with the public they are
:41:16. > :41:19.serving? Is interesting that both of those
:41:19. > :41:23.chief constables say they are confident can deliver high quality
:41:23. > :41:27.policing out of this, despite what Kat Mackie said is delivered and
:41:27. > :41:37.driven by cuts bite rather than choice. You wonder why this has not
:41:37. > :41:41.happened earlier. Anyone in the police services face by it all up,
:41:41. > :41:44.when they are operating in a climate of savage cuts, they want to
:41:44. > :41:48.reassure Republicans are the best they can and maybe this is one way
:41:48. > :41:53.they think they can do. They are the experts. They are confident. They
:41:53. > :41:57.don't want to worry people or make them feel like they are not going to
:41:57. > :42:02.be safe. It does not alter the reality that if you look, my police
:42:02. > :42:05.force is not either of those too. It is West Midlands. There have been
:42:05. > :42:12.huge cuts, we're talking a thousand police officers that have been lost.
:42:13. > :42:22.I can already see the effect of some of that squeeze in my constituency.
:42:22. > :42:24.Any police others can look at what they can merge and whatever is
:42:24. > :42:28.right. It does not alter the essential arithmetic that the cuts
:42:28. > :42:40.are too severe, particularly in our region. In the West Midlands, 667
:42:41. > :42:46.posts, including 200 police officers by 2016. Savage cuts, driven by
:42:46. > :42:49.numbers and efficiency. In Sutton Coldfield, where the West Midlands
:42:50. > :42:55.force looks after my constituents are there has been a reduction in
:42:55. > :42:59.the amount of money spent. Crime has fallen enormously in the last two
:42:59. > :43:03.years. Sutton Coldfield is now the second safest town in Britain. I
:43:03. > :43:08.page a view to the police in Sutton Coldfield who have been —— it paid
:43:08. > :43:12.tribute to the police in Sutton Coldfield who have been able to
:43:12. > :43:17.deliver the results, good policing, and doing so with West resources. ——
:43:17. > :43:22.less resources. We need to make sure they are our adequate resources for
:43:22. > :43:26.policing. I think the merger of the two forces which you have
:43:26. > :43:32.identified. The logic which says we can deliver the same quality service
:43:32. > :43:36.for the public with less bureaucracy, through the merger, can
:43:36. > :43:42.we drive out inefficiencies. That is a good thing to do. Shropshire is
:43:42. > :43:46.the only county in England with no direct rail link to London. Half a
:43:46. > :43:50.million people live their at they have had to change at
:43:50. > :43:57.Wolverhampton, Birmingham or Stafford to get to the capital. Now
:43:57. > :44:05.inspired by encouraging noises by the government of —— a vigorous
:44:05. > :44:13.campaign is underway. Can people see the light at the end of the tunnel?
:44:13. > :44:19.We have been finding out. Gone but not forgotten. The Wrexham,
:44:19. > :44:24.Shropshire service lasted less than three years. It was a throwback to
:44:24. > :44:27.the golden age of railway, going through the countryside to
:44:27. > :44:33.Shrewsbury to the capital in three hours. Popular with the few that use
:44:33. > :44:37.that. Is there and at the man for a direct service? I would really
:44:38. > :44:43.welcome it, I would use the service, we used it when we had a direct line
:44:43. > :44:47.and I miss it now. It would save a lot of time and hassle getting to
:44:47. > :44:52.London early in the morning. Without having to go the night before. It
:44:52. > :44:56.would be an advantage, a direct line, to get people down there,
:44:56. > :45:04.quicker it is a of a drag. Changing at Wolverhampton. The editor of the
:45:05. > :45:08.local paper a grade and took action. We have launched an online petition
:45:08. > :45:12.which has attracted more than three dozen signatures in just over three
:45:12. > :45:14.weeks which is phenomenal. We have got several hundred responses from
:45:14. > :45:19.coupons in the paper supporting the campaign. A superb reaction. It
:45:19. > :45:29.illustrates the strength appealing that people have on the issue. ——
:45:29. > :45:32.strength of feeling. I want to see improvements, the introduction of a
:45:32. > :45:38.new service from London to Blackpool. And to Shrewsbury. I
:45:38. > :45:44.would hope that both of these new services would be introduced from
:45:44. > :45:49.December 2013. Voter has obliged. It is, with a plan that would provide
:45:49. > :45:53.Shrewsbury with two direct services a day to London. There is a major
:45:53. > :45:58.sticking point. Network rail. It is undergoing major work to improve the
:45:58. > :46:03.congested West Coast Main line and says there is not enough room for
:46:03. > :46:06.any more trains. At least not yet. The number of trains and passengers
:46:06. > :46:11.in the last ten years has doubled. The line being easier means that it
:46:11. > :46:15.is harder for us to maintain punctuality, we have less win those
:46:15. > :46:20.to get on the track and maintain the track. One thing we are looking to
:46:20. > :46:31.do is looking to improve in performance on the line. Critics say
:46:31. > :46:33.that network rail should managers network better end should not use
:46:33. > :46:40.its own inefficiencies to prevent new services. Network rail, as a
:46:40. > :46:45.national body is not accountable enough to Parliament nor the people.
:46:46. > :46:51.We have to ensure that there is a greater level of scrutiny as to how
:46:51. > :46:57.they operate. So far, network rail have been backed by the office for
:46:57. > :47:01.now like —— rail regulation. It is keen to keep things moving on time.
:47:01. > :47:07.The transport Secretary's December deadline looks likely to suffer
:47:07. > :47:10.serious delays. As public pressure mounts, there is new hope the
:47:10. > :47:18.service could be back on track by the spring. Liz Roberts reporting
:47:18. > :47:22.from this is reliant. We also join today by one of our leading
:47:22. > :47:28.commentators on the rail industry, Tony Miles. Columnist on modern
:47:28. > :47:30.Railways magazine you say you have unrivalled contacts in the operating
:47:30. > :47:43.company. Your reputation precedes you. Network rail who have knocked
:47:43. > :47:47.back virgin's applications do a full service. Everybody seemed to be
:47:47. > :47:50.fighting each other. Is a bit of a double whammy, the last year,
:47:50. > :47:54.firstly, network rail has been threatened with fines for not
:47:54. > :48:00.improving train punctuality, £1.5 million for every 10th of a percent
:48:00. > :48:04.that it does not meet its target. That is about £73 million worth of
:48:04. > :48:08.fines. It has been threatened with fines for not improving the state of
:48:08. > :48:12.the network. The last thing it wanted was an additional eight
:48:12. > :48:16.trains a day altogether on its network which it said would probably
:48:16. > :48:21.add half a percent of the delays every day. Shrewsbury and Telford
:48:21. > :48:29.are suffering because of the lack of coherence in the various sections of
:48:29. > :48:35.the rail? Exactly. The West Coast mainline is the most congested rail
:48:35. > :48:45.line in Europe. It is busy, mixed traffic, 70 mph freight trains and
:48:45. > :48:50.110 mph passenger trains. Finding a slot for a handful of trains a day
:48:50. > :48:56.has challenged network rail. A year ago it said there was only one path
:48:56. > :49:02.left. Virgin wanted it and then they said no. What Machover has been a £9
:49:02. > :49:06.billion upgrade of the West Coast rail line, why can't we find more
:49:06. > :49:11.slots for trains for Telford and elsewhere and Shropshire? Bit of
:49:11. > :49:20.smoke and mirrors when the government proclaims it was
:49:20. > :49:24.finished. The given under budget, very little work was done south of
:49:24. > :49:27.rugby and know what was done south of Watford. Now, next year, there is
:49:27. > :49:38.going to be some lengthy coaches over Watford —— closest to Watford.
:49:39. > :49:43.It does seem to be a sorry saga of disconnections and a lack of
:49:43. > :49:52.accountability. Unelected quangos. Everybody at arms length. Is no way
:49:52. > :49:55.to run a railway. The rail industry does not hold together in the way
:49:55. > :50:01.that it should. We may have a political disagreements about some
:50:01. > :50:04.of the things that lead up to the way it was privatised. Apparently it
:50:04. > :50:09.was a good thing. We are where we are now. The fact is there is a lack
:50:09. > :50:13.of capacity on the railway, there are problems of connections. Through
:50:13. > :50:17.two Shropshire as we have heard. This brings into focus the whole
:50:17. > :50:22.question of high—speed two which is a big issue for all of us. Wherever
:50:22. > :50:28.we are. Politicians it seems to me, Andrew, we have seen and will —— and
:50:28. > :50:35.McLauchlan saying we would like to see services to Shropshire. We're
:50:35. > :50:38.not going to see that, be? He is announcing a service in the
:50:38. > :50:41.Midlands, we have a transport secretary that comes from the
:50:41. > :50:44.Midlands, that is a good thing, what he is announcing in terms of
:50:44. > :50:51.high—speed two is absolutely fundamental for the economic
:50:51. > :50:55.well—being of the Midlands. It is not about speed. It was sold as an
:50:55. > :51:02.issue of speed between London and Birmingham. It is not about that, it
:51:02. > :51:10.is. A rebellion in the Tory shires going to election? Of course this
:51:10. > :51:12.track is going through constituencies of members of
:51:12. > :51:18.Parliament, in the interests of Britain, we need a new North—South
:51:18. > :51:20.line. The capacity reasons there are nearly 4000 people standing when
:51:20. > :51:30.they reached London from Birmingham. The capacity is running out. Ed
:51:31. > :51:36.Balls had comments to call it off. We need to take seriously the report
:51:36. > :51:40.from the public accounts committee. We know the cost is running. No
:51:40. > :51:45.responsible government government would ignore that. It is true that
:51:45. > :51:49.we have got to do something about our rail network. Capacity is an
:51:49. > :51:52.issue and also remember that high—speed two is about our
:51:52. > :51:56.connectivity. Lots of Greater London but to the rest of the country. The
:51:56. > :51:59.meat, getting the rest of the country connected with Birmingham
:51:59. > :52:02.and Birmingham connected to the south better, that is the real
:52:02. > :52:08.prize. High—speed two offers a way of doing that. Tony, is high—speed
:52:08. > :52:11.to the panacea? Thinking about Shrewsbury and elsewhere, the
:52:11. > :52:14.argument is that by moving a great swathe of services between the
:52:14. > :52:20.high—speed city routes in the new line, there will be less capacity
:52:20. > :52:23.for shrews been elsewhere. Absolutely, the final word on
:52:24. > :52:28.Shrewsbury is that the could get its services from next May. Meanwhile,
:52:28. > :52:32.if we are going to rely more on the railways for things like freight and
:52:32. > :52:36.commuting and so on were slower trains and more stops will run, we
:52:36. > :52:40.have got to take the long distance passengers elsewhere and I was
:52:40. > :52:42.disappointed initially that Patrick McLauchlan talked about journey
:52:42. > :52:49.times and I'm delighted he has finally realised it is about making
:52:49. > :52:58.space. Thank you. Now for the round—up of the political week in
:52:58. > :53:04.the Midlands. In 60 seconds. House prices went up in the region by 2%
:53:04. > :53:09.last year, hardly a bubble. In Birmingham, they rose 6%, in
:53:09. > :53:12.Sandwell, they fell. 3%. 600 more jobs could be lost at Worcestershire
:53:12. > :53:18.county council, the authority needs to make an additional £9 million of
:53:18. > :53:21.savings. 800 jobs have already gone. The home secretary praised the
:53:21. > :53:23.response of British Muslims following the fatal stabbing of
:53:23. > :53:27.Birmingham grandfather Mohammad Salim and a series of bomb plots
:53:28. > :53:32.targeting mosques in the Black Country. Again, the terrorists have
:53:32. > :53:41.failed. The response from reddish Muslims was a quiet resolve. More
:53:41. > :53:44.than 750 schools were affected as teachers here joined those in the
:53:44. > :53:48.East of England and Yorkshire, striking in a dispute over pay and
:53:48. > :53:52.conditions. In a serious case review into the death of Birmingham toddler
:53:52. > :53:57.Kiana Williams said that social workers and police and health
:53:57. > :54:06.workers had collectively failed to prevent his death. Now we hear the
:54:06. > :54:10.children put it minister has put Birmingham city council with a final
:54:10. > :54:19.warning —— warning of further action. We have two Boehringer MPs
:54:19. > :54:22.with the same. Andrew, giving the idea of the government taking over,
:54:22. > :54:29.that is logically the way that it is heading? It is another awful story.
:54:29. > :54:33.I would much rather it was sorted out here in Birmingham, this is
:54:33. > :54:38.where the issue has arisen, we must ensure that it is sorted out. If it
:54:38. > :54:41.cannot be sorted out here, the government is right to say they
:54:41. > :54:45.would take over responsibility. The head of children's services in the
:54:45. > :54:48.city says that the system is frail and he is concerned that children
:54:48. > :54:53.may not be consistently safeguarded around the city. It underlines the
:54:53. > :54:57.point that this must be sorted out and it must be sorted out now.
:54:57. > :55:02.Richard, we had case review is one after the other, 23 of the last
:55:02. > :55:10.seven years, not a scrap of difference. History is repeating
:55:10. > :55:17.itself. The death of any child is a tragedy. For the families, is a
:55:17. > :55:19.tragedy. You are right, it is a tragedy. You are right, it has
:55:19. > :55:21.happened far too many times in Birmingham. We have heard time after
:55:22. > :55:25.time that things will be different, this time I am pleased that the city
:55:25. > :55:29.council and the safeguarding board have held their hands up here, they
:55:29. > :55:33.have said it can't go on like that. I have asked three meeting, between
:55:33. > :55:39.them and MPs to try and sort out what is to be done. Part of that
:55:39. > :55:42.solution has got to be getting more trained social workers in the
:55:42. > :55:46.Birmingham. But as part of the problem. One final thought, part of
:55:47. > :55:52.the talk and the interpretation of this. It indicates —— indicator
:55:52. > :55:59.discover Birmingham, its size, makes a dysfunctional in this kind of
:55:59. > :56:02.context. What is your view? It is true, the sheer size of the issue,
:56:02. > :56:11.the number of cases they are handling, is enormous. We should try
:56:11. > :56:18.and get a system right. That manages the system in Birmingham. S there is
:56:18. > :56:20.something in that, strategically, things are to be sorted out in
:56:20. > :56:27.Birmingham. If you're going to intervene properly in family crisis,
:56:27. > :56:30.you can only do that locally. Unless agencies are empowered and have the
:56:30. > :56:34.funds to do, we will have more of these tragedies. Lets leave it there
:56:34. > :56:39.we will keep watch. Thank you to Andrew Mitchell and Richard Burton.
:56:39. > :56:46.A quick word of the programmes on BBC Coventry and Warwickshire. Any
:56:46. > :56:56.oaks will have live broadcasts on the high—speed rail route. Change at
:56:56. > :57:00.Birmingham International for all points north. That is about it for
:57:00. > :57:05.all of us here. We'll be back next points north. That is about it for
:57:05. > :57:07.We are getting into a discussion of more affordable homes needed, but we
:57:07. > :57:20.have no time. Andrew, back to you. Our next guest is no stranger to
:57:20. > :57:42.controversy, a former UKIP MEP he recently lost his party's whip after
:57:42. > :57:46.a series of outbursts including receiving aid as 'Bongo Bongo Land'
:57:46. > :57:49.and joking that a group of UKIP women who didn't clean behind their
:57:49. > :57:53.fridges were 'sluts'. Now he sits in independent but remains a UKIP party
:57:53. > :58:03.member. Here's a flavour of recent events in the political life of
:58:03. > :58:13.Godfrey Bloom. How you can possibly be giving £1 million a month...
:58:13. > :58:16.Bongo Bongo Land. I got 6000 e-mails within 12 hours, only 47 were not
:58:16. > :58:20.agreeing with me so you are the within 12 hours, only 47 were not
:58:20. > :58:23.that is out of touch. Everybody knows me, a bit like the Marmite
:58:23. > :58:27.joke, they love me or they hate knows me, a bit like the Marmite
:58:27. > :58:38.but I have always told me like it is. I made a joke and said that
:58:38. > :58:42.women who did not clean behind the French were sluts and everybody
:58:42. > :58:46.laughed along, including the women. I have had hundreds of e-mails,
:58:46. > :58:51.saying, God Almighty, can't you I have had hundreds of e-mails,
:58:51. > :58:56.a joke any more? I am long in the correctness and I understand UKIP
:58:56. > :59:10.have moved on and they are doing well, and I wish them well. This,
:59:10. > :59:16.with no black faces on it. You are picking people out for the colour of
:59:16. > :59:19.with no black faces on it. You are their skin? You disgust me! Perhaps
:59:19. > :59:27.the way they are doing things now is disgrace me. We are joined now with
:59:27. > :59:34.a suitable distance between us by the independent MEP for Yorkshire
:59:34. > :59:39.and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You said this weekend that you have
:59:39. > :59:48.and the Humber, Godfrey Bloom. You be a complete sociopath to be in
:59:48. > :59:51.politics, are you a sociopath? No, I am just an ordinary bloke from the
:59:52. > :59:55.rugby club likes to tell it as it is. I did not come into politics to
:59:55. > :00:00.rugby club likes to tell it as it save my country from the clutches of
:00:00. > :00:06.the awful, evil... That is why I am in politics, and that is why I
:00:06. > :00:14.member, and I will still be voting ability... Do you accept that your
:00:14. > :00:21.conference? We were both born in ability... Do you accept that your
:00:21. > :00:27.same year, we are too old to worry about regrets. Let's look forward
:00:27. > :00:35.and see... Never mind the year I was born, what is the answer to my
:00:35. > :00:42.country and intent to do the best I independent for my country, and
:00:42. > :00:45.country and intent to do the best I re-elected. They are the only game
:00:45. > :00:54.in town, the only party that will get as out. Shouldn't you have been
:00:54. > :00:58.liability? You hijacked the party conference. That is a matter of
:00:58. > :01:03.perception. We have heard nothing in the last two years but it is a
:01:03. > :01:06.one-man band, a Nigel Farage party, and I can make a joke at a fringe
:01:06. > :01:14.meeting and collapse the whole thing. This doesn't say anything
:01:14. > :01:23.Andrew. It tells you about your journalism - it is not about UKIP or
:01:23. > :01:30.me, it was the journalists' reaction to a small joke at a meeting. And
:01:30. > :01:43.myself, unless I had a commended. Personality, the most unbelievable
:01:43. > :01:56.force of personality to collapse a party conference. Nigel Farage has
:01:56. > :02:00.been a friend of mine for 20 years, and may I remind you that in June
:02:00. > :02:06.and July UK was slipping in the polls, and when I made my statement
:02:06. > :02:13.about overseas aid, we went back to liability, I never was, I am a vote
:02:14. > :02:18.getter. As you know, there is a correlation, but let me show you
:02:18. > :02:23.what Nigel Farage had to say about you on the BBC. Let's blunder clip
:02:23. > :02:30.of that. We are not here to win friends amongst the liberal elite,
:02:30. > :02:39.and Godfrey's problem was that he manifesto. Don't you need to reflect
:02:39. > :02:41.that you are too outrageous, too politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:41. > :02:47.Well, you see, to a certain extent I politically incorrect even for UKIP?
:02:47. > :02:51.have been gagged on other subjects. I am a libertarian, I wanted to
:02:51. > :02:53.have been gagged on other subjects. about flat tax. I thought David
:02:53. > :02:57.Aronowitz wrote a very good piece in the times on drugs, and I have been
:02:57. > :03:01.gagged to speak about any of these things because they are not part of
:03:01. > :03:10.it, so I tend to speak about other things. Maybe they have outgrown
:03:11. > :03:13.machine, and they have to get rid of the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:13. > :03:17.have a point, but I am speaking the Victor Meldrew wing. You might
:03:17. > :03:23.you from Hull, and if you look at Barnsley, and very recently in
:03:23. > :03:28.Scarborough and Whitby in the buy legends, 25%, so how you see things
:03:28. > :03:32.in the bubble, it is not like how we see it appear in Yorkshire. You
:03:32. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we like the one who was sitting in
:03:35. > :03:35.in the bubble, it is not like how we bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:35. > :03:40.course it isn't, we are getting bubble! Is UKIP unravelling? Of
:03:40. > :03:45.of the vote in by-elections, of course it is not. Boy, wouldn't
:03:45. > :03:48.of the vote in by-elections, of main parties and the establishment
:03:48. > :03:52.love to see that! But I am sorry, it is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:52. > :03:55.an independence against UKIP in is not happening. Will you stand as
:03:55. > :04:08.European elections? Almost certainly elections were next week, I could
:04:08. > :04:10.do not think I will go that route. Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:10. > :04:14.again? We do not know, probably Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:14. > :04:18.but I shall certainly be trying Will you stand as a UKIP candidate
:04:18. > :04:21.help UKIP as best I can. You both share a flat, I understand, in
:04:21. > :04:26.Brussels, neither of you clean behind the fridge. Other than the
:04:26. > :04:30.fact that the place is probably quite murky, you have got a chance
:04:30. > :04:34.to talk to each other and get back into his good graces, haven't you? I
:04:34. > :04:44.am sure we will be having a beer before the month is out. So Godfrey
:04:44. > :04:50.take it? For those of you who were shrugged! Thank you very much for
:04:50. > :04:55.joining. A great pleasure. I will have to move my own share, you do
:04:55. > :05:00.not have the sea Jeremy Paxman doing that! Nobody votes for UKIP because
:05:00. > :05:07.they think they are a smooth, slick, absence of PR polish is the reason
:05:07. > :05:11.for their popularity, so these are skirmishes are not a problem, and
:05:11. > :05:15.more than that, Godfrey Bloom does make Nigel Farage look better. Even
:05:15. > :05:20.in that clip from Andrew Marr, he juxtaposition with someone like
:05:20. > :05:25.Godfrey Bloom than he has done before. I mean, he did hijacked
:05:25. > :05:26.Godfrey Bloom than he has done conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:26. > :05:29.got tonnes of publicity but not conference, it was a disaster, they
:05:29. > :05:37.kind they wanted. But you have to journalists. I thought he was sexist
:05:37. > :05:42.long before anyone else, he used to have an incredible page on his
:05:42. > :05:47.website entitled Godfrey Bloom: Misogynist, and the proof that he
:05:47. > :05:53.photographed with a girls' rugby characters in politics. He does
:05:53. > :05:55.photographed with a girls' rugby Nigel Farage look better, but is sin
:05:55. > :06:01.was to say things you said before but to ruin the party conference. It
:06:01. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A beer in Brussels and he will be
:06:06. > :06:06.sounds like he is coming back. A on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:06. > :06:12.beer in that built the Chechen, on the UKIP ticket. Sitting having a
:06:12. > :06:15.sounds like it may be what the deal is that he comes back into UKIP
:06:15. > :06:18.sounds like it may be what the deal does not stand as an MEP at the
:06:18. > :06:22.European Parliamentary elections. -- in that built the kitchen. It is
:06:22. > :06:25.right to say the electorate are sophisticated and they know what
:06:25. > :06:33.this party is for, what characters Godfrey Bloom said for people to
:06:33. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using UKIP four. They are using it as
:06:37. > :06:37.electorate know what they go using vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:37. > :06:40.three established parties. They vehicle to beat over the head the
:06:40. > :06:44.probably do it in the European elections and give them first place.
:06:44. > :06:55.The big question is what happens in problem that Nigel Farage was making
:06:56. > :06:56.The big question is what happens in an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:56. > :06:58.he wants to copy the tactics of an Andrew Marr this morning is that
:06:58. > :07:00.he wants to copy the tactics of Paddy Ashdown, get elected and
:07:00. > :07:01.councils, build up a Parliamentary base, and to do that you do need
:07:01. > :07:04.Commons next week, and there is base, and to do that you do need
:07:04. > :07:06.ministerial reshuffle on the cards, that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:06. > :07:10.David Cameron has spoken of the that is the rumour in Westminster.
:07:10. > :07:12.David Cameron has spoken of the extraordinary talent pool of women
:07:12. > :07:14.among his ministers, so could he bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:15. > :07:19.He was talking about it earlier bring more of them into the cabinet?
:07:19. > :07:25.week. I think we are getting there in Britain, but we have a long way
:07:25. > :07:29.businesses in Britain, there are not boardroom. If you look at politics
:07:29. > :07:34.in Britain, there aren't nearly enough women around the Cabinet
:07:34. > :07:38.table. So I think, in every walk of life, whether it is the judiciary,
:07:38. > :07:41.whether it is politics, business, there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:41. > :07:45.the last election, we only had there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:45. > :07:47.women Members of Parliament. We there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:47. > :07:50.have around 50, so we have made there is a lot further to go. Before
:07:50. > :07:55.big change, but it is still 50 out of 300, not nearly enough. So we
:07:55. > :08:00.need to do more. My wife likes to say, if you don't have women in
:08:00. > :08:03.need to do more. My wife likes to places, you're not just missing
:08:03. > :08:06.need to do more. My wife likes to missing out on a lot more than
:08:06. > :08:09.need to do more. My wife likes to of the talent, and I think she
:08:09. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to probably has a point. The prime
:08:14. > :08:14.need to do more. My wife likes to there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:14. > :08:19.think you are right to say there there going to be a reshuffle? I
:08:19. > :08:25.will be a lot more women, they need to change the ratio of women to
:08:25. > :08:33.will be a lot more women, they need called Dave who went to maudlin
:08:33. > :08:43.college. So obviously they are not fishing in the biggest talent pool,
:08:43. > :08:46.but there are numbers. Esther McVey has been selling a very difficult
:08:46. > :08:48.brief in work and pensions, you could see people being given bigger
:08:48. > :08:55.roles. Helen is pretty sure. We could see people being given bigger
:08:55. > :08:57.told it is not a Cabinet level reshuffle me it is under Secretary
:08:57. > :09:05.level, so maybe you could put Esther McVey into the Cabinet. Margot
:09:05. > :09:07.James, who you had here not that long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:07. > :09:11.What is impressive is that some long ago, she is very impressive.
:09:11. > :09:16.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really impressive, worked in the City,
:09:16. > :09:19.like Andrea Leadsom, who is really smart, really big on important
:09:19. > :09:23.intervention, she should still be in there, but she fell out with George
:09:23. > :09:33.Osborne when she dared to criticise him a few years ago over Ed Balls
:09:33. > :09:41.you are doing it on talent, Andrea expectation, if he does not do this
:09:41. > :09:48.now, a tonne of bricks will fall on him. He has got no excuse not to
:09:48. > :09:56.promote women, because the 2010 intake was disproportionately female
:09:56. > :10:00.in terms of talent. The question of the Tories and the struggle with
:10:00. > :10:03.women voters is a very deep and historic one. You have to remember
:10:03. > :10:07.that for most of the post-war period they had an advantage electorally
:10:07. > :10:12.amongst women voters. Many times Conservative government without
:10:12. > :10:14.amongst women voters. Many times women of this country. This began to
:10:14. > :10:21.change in the mid-1990s, and the question is, why has that happened?
:10:21. > :10:26.personalities at the top are now much more hostile to women, or less,
:10:26. > :10:27.personalities at the top are now Brent doubled to female voters?
:10:27. > :10:29.personalities at the top are now is such a deep historical trend
:10:29. > :10:35.personalities at the top are now I do not think one reshuffle will
:10:35. > :10:40.change it. -- or less competent civil. The English party conference
:10:40. > :10:46.season is over, do you share the consensus view that Ed Miliband
:10:46. > :10:51.season is over, do you share the out best of the three party leaders?
:10:51. > :10:56.I think I probably do, but his overall approval ratings are still
:10:56. > :11:00.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus ten. And the more the recovery seems
:11:00. > :11:03.minus 20, whereas Cameron's minus to take place, and some of the
:11:03. > :11:07.latest figures are quite amazing, they certainly surprised me, you
:11:07. > :11:14.wonder whether Labour's tactic is right to put all their eggs into the
:11:14. > :11:18.living standards basket. I was looking at car sales, which are
:11:18. > :11:22.booming. If people start to feel better, and they don't yet, but
:11:22. > :11:30.booming. If people start to feel they were, it is tougher to go on
:11:30. > :11:32.about living standards. George Osborne's... You have Ed Miliband
:11:32. > :11:37.making a great thing about living standards, but then they say under
:11:37. > :11:43.their breath, this is global forces, outstripping wage increases. And
:11:43. > :11:47.you're absolutely right, as the economy improves, presumably that
:11:47. > :11:51.will be dealt with, but Miliband's argument will be that there are
:11:51. > :11:56.people suffering, and even if the economy recovers, they will still
:11:56. > :12:01.forces, it is difficult to blame the government for that. Body being
:12:01. > :12:06.noticed now, there is nothing worse for the leader of the opposition
:12:06. > :12:11.than to be not noticed. -- but he is being noticed now. It seems that he
:12:11. > :12:12.in many ways has set the political weather. Look at the number of
:12:12. > :12:18.references to the Labour leader weather. Look at the number of
:12:18. > :12:25.Mr Cameron's speech. And in Mr Obama's speech on a similar topic,
:12:25. > :12:31.living standards. Was the mentioning Ed Miliband?! Oh, he was using the
:12:31. > :12:37.same language, he has not gone that far. If I were Ed Miliband, I would
:12:37. > :12:40.be more worried now, because Labour through the kitchen sink at their
:12:40. > :12:45.conference. They came out with the biggest policy announcements they
:12:45. > :12:49.could, compulsory apprenticeships, the energy freeze on prices, and it
:12:49. > :12:54.generated a poll boost which has fizzled away within ten days. I
:12:54. > :12:57.generated a poll boost which has not know where they go from here.
:12:57. > :13:04.What is significant with Ed Miliband conference beaches, he has set the
:13:04. > :13:07.one nation Britain, and the problem with those speeches is people say,
:13:07. > :13:14.they are fine, they are academic, but what does it mean? What you
:13:14. > :13:16.they are fine, they are academic, now is an intellectual framework
:13:16. > :13:20.that translates into policies. The polls to watch are not the ones
:13:20. > :13:23.after the conferences, but at the end of the month when it has also
:13:23. > :13:28.pulled down. They will tell us where we are going. We will have to go
:13:28. > :13:31.ourselves now. Thank you to our guests. The Daily Politics will
:13:31. > :13:34.ourselves now. Thank you to our back tomorrow at noon on BBC Two,
:13:34. > :13:37.and I will be back on BBC One this time, same time, next week. If it is
:13:37. > :13:39.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.