:00:40. > :00:46.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:47. > :00:50.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:51. > :00:54.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:55. > :01:00.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:01. > :01:05.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:06. > :01:06.coppers will be answering questions this
:01:07. > :01:15.In the Midlands: Why people with Celsius.
:01:16. > :01:17.In the Midlands: Why people with mental illnesses are treated like
:01:18. > :01:19.criminals. London, does the London assembly
:01:20. > :01:34.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:35. > :01:38.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:39. > :01:43.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:44. > :01:51.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:52. > :01:57.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:58. > :02:02.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:03. > :02:05.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:06. > :02:11.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:12. > :02:16.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:17. > :02:19.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:20. > :02:29.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence
:02:30. > :02:34.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:35. > :02:38.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:39. > :02:43.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:44. > :02:48.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:49. > :02:51.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:52. > :02:57.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:58. > :03:01.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:02. > :03:05.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:06. > :03:10.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:11. > :03:15.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:16. > :03:19.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:20. > :03:25.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%
:03:26. > :03:30.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:31. > :03:35.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:36. > :03:41.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:42. > :03:44.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:45. > :03:48.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:49. > :03:53.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:54. > :03:57.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:58. > :04:01.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:02. > :04:06.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:07. > :04:10.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:11. > :04:13.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:14. > :04:17.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:18. > :04:21.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:22. > :04:25.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:26. > :04:29.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:30. > :04:32.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:33. > :04:36.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:37. > :04:40.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:41. > :04:43.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:44. > :04:47.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:48. > :04:54.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:55. > :05:01.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:02. > :05:03.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:04. > :05:11.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:12. > :05:15.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:16. > :05:20.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:21. > :05:26.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:27. > :05:30.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:31. > :05:35.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:36. > :05:39.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:40. > :05:46.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:47. > :05:50.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:51. > :05:54.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:55. > :05:58.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:05:59. > :06:02.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:03. > :06:12.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:13. > :06:17.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:18. > :06:21.identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to
:06:22. > :06:26.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:27. > :06:30.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:31. > :06:35.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:36. > :06:38.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:39. > :06:41.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:42. > :06:46.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:47. > :06:50.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:51. > :06:54.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:55. > :06:58.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:06:59. > :07:02.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:03. > :07:07.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:08. > :07:11.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:12. > :07:14.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:15. > :07:20.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:21. > :07:26.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:27. > :07:33.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:34. > :07:38.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:39. > :07:43.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:44. > :07:48.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:49. > :07:51.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:52. > :07:56.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:57. > :07:59.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:08:00. > :08:03.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:04. > :08:09.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:10. > :08:12.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:13. > :08:19.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:20. > :08:23.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:24. > :08:26.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:27. > :08:31.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:32. > :08:37.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:38. > :08:42.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:43. > :08:51.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:52. > :08:57.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:58. > :09:02.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:03. > :09:04.government would do, if elected A decision on what the first
:09:05. > :09:08.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:09. > :09:14.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:15. > :09:16.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:17. > :09:20.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:21. > :09:27.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:28. > :09:31.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:32. > :09:35.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:36. > :09:38.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:39. > :09:43.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:44. > :09:49.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:50. > :09:52.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:53. > :09:57.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:58. > :10:03.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:04. > :10:06.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:07. > :10:12.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:13. > :10:16.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:17. > :10:20.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:21. > :10:25.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and
:10:26. > :10:29.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:30. > :10:32.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:33. > :10:36.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:37. > :10:40.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:41. > :10:44.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:45. > :11:00.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:11:01. > :11:04.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:05. > :11:10.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:11. > :11:14.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:15. > :11:23.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:24. > :11:27.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:28. > :11:30.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:31. > :11:36.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:37. > :11:40.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:41. > :11:44.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:45. > :11:50.then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:51. > :11:56.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:57. > :12:00.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:01. > :12:09.right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:10. > :12:15.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:16. > :12:18.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:19. > :12:35.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:36. > :12:43.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:44. > :12:47.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:48. > :12:52.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:53. > :12:56.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:57. > :13:00.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:13:01. > :13:03.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:04. > :13:09.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:10. > :13:14.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:15. > :13:17.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:18. > :13:22.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:23. > :13:27.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:28. > :13:30.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:31. > :13:35.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:36. > :13:40.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:41. > :13:49.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:50. > :13:53.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:54. > :13:57.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:58. > :14:02.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:03. > :14:06.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:07. > :14:10.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:11. > :14:13.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:14. > :14:19.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:20. > :14:25.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:26. > :14:30.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:31. > :14:39.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:40. > :14:42.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:43. > :14:47.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:48. > :14:52.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:53. > :14:56.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:57. > :15:00.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:15:01. > :15:03.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:04. > :15:09.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:10. > :15:13.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:14. > :15:16.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:17. > :15:21.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:22. > :15:25.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:26. > :15:29.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:30. > :15:35.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:36. > :15:41.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:42. > :15:59.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:16:00. > :16:03.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:04. > :16:09.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:10. > :16:12.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:13. > :16:16.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:17. > :16:20.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:21. > :16:25.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:26. > :16:31.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:32. > :16:35.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:36. > :16:39.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:40. > :16:45.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:46. > :16:47.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:48. > :17:01.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:02. > :17:07.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:08. > :17:16.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:17. > :17:23.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:24. > :17:30.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:31. > :17:36.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:37. > :17:40.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:41. > :17:46.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:47. > :17:53.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:54. > :18:00.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:01. > :18:04.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:05. > :18:10.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:11. > :18:16.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:17. > :18:23.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:24. > :18:28.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:29. > :18:35.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:36. > :18:43.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:44. > :18:49.micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:50. > :18:53.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:54. > :19:00.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:01. > :19:04.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:05. > :19:10.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:11. > :19:16.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:17. > :19:21.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:22. > :19:27.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:28. > :19:35.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:36. > :19:40.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:41. > :19:46.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:47. > :19:49.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:50. > :20:00.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:01. > :20:07.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:08. > :20:17.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:18. > :20:27.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:28. > :20:31.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:32. > :20:39.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:40. > :20:44.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:45. > :20:51.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:52. > :20:59.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:21:00. > :21:12.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:13. > :21:17.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:18. > :21:25.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:26. > :21:29.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:30. > :21:36.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,
:21:37. > :21:43.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:44. > :21:47.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:48. > :22:00.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:01. > :22:04.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:05. > :22:11.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:12. > :22:16.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:17. > :22:24.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:25. > :22:27.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:28. > :22:37.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:38. > :22:41.belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are
:22:42. > :22:49.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:50. > :23:00.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:01. > :23:06.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:07. > :23:07.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:08. > :23:14.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:15. > :23:14.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:15. > :23:19.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:20. > :23:24.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:25. > :23:36.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:37. > :23:37.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:38. > :23:39.there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot
:23:40. > :23:41.there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:42. > :23:54.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:55. > :24:01.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:02. > :24:06.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:07. > :24:11.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:12. > :24:17.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:18. > :24:22.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:23. > :24:28.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:29. > :24:35.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:36. > :24:41.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:42. > :24:46.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:47. > :24:52.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:53. > :24:56.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:57. > :25:00.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:01. > :25:05.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:06. > :25:12.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:13. > :25:16.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:17. > :25:24.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:25. > :25:28.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:29. > :25:34.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:35. > :25:38.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:39. > :25:45.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:46. > :25:51.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:52. > :25:56.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:57. > :26:04.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:05. > :26:08.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:09. > :26:17.has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We
:26:18. > :26:23.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:24. > :26:35.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:36. > :26:44.we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:45. > :26:57.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:58. > :27:03.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:04. > :27:09.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:10. > :27:15.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:16. > :27:22.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:23. > :27:30.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:31. > :27:38.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:39. > :27:41.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:42. > :27:45.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:46. > :27:48.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:49. > :27:50.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:51. > :27:52.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:53. > :27:58.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:59. > :28:05.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:06. > :28:11.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:12. > :28:14.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:15. > :28:20.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:21. > :28:25.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament
:28:26. > :28:29.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:30. > :28:34.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:35. > :28:38.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:39. > :28:45.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:46. > :28:52.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:53. > :28:57.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:58. > :29:04.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:05. > :29:07.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:08. > :29:12.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:13. > :29:15.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:16. > :29:22.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:23. > :29:26.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:27. > :29:32.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:33. > :29:36.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:37. > :29:39.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:40. > :29:42.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:43. > :29:48.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:49. > :29:52.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:53. > :29:58.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:59. > :30:02.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:03. > :30:06.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:07. > :30:12.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:13. > :30:15.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:16. > :30:20.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:21. > :30:26.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:27. > :30:29.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:30. > :30:33.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of
:30:34. > :30:40.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:41. > :30:49.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:50. > :30:55.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:56. > :30:59.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:31:00. > :31:05.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:06. > :31:11.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:12. > :31:15.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:16. > :31:19.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:20. > :31:24.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:25. > :31:31.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:32. > :31:37.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:38. > :31:43.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:44. > :31:49.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:50. > :31:55.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:56. > :31:59.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:32:00. > :32:03.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:04. > :32:06.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:07. > :32:15.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:16. > :32:19.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:20. > :32:22.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:23. > :32:33.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:34. > :32:37.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:38. > :32:42.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:43. > :32:46.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:47. > :32:52.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces
:32:53. > :33:00.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:01. > :33:05.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:06. > :33:09.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:10. > :33:17.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:18. > :33:20.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:21. > :33:27.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:28. > :33:32.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:33. > :33:35.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:36. > :33:39.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:40. > :33:45.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:46. > :33:49.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:50. > :33:52.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:53. > :33:58.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:59. > :34:02.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:03. > :34:05.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:06. > :34:10.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:11. > :34:13.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:14. > :34:16.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:17. > :34:25.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:26. > :34:28.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:29. > :34:33.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:34. > :34:36.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:37. > :34:40.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:41. > :34:44.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:45. > :34:47.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:48. > :34:52.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:53. > :35:01.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:02. > :35:06.if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:07. > :35:12.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:13. > :35:17.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:18. > :35:21.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:22. > :35:25.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:26. > :35:32.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:33. > :35:38.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t.
:35:39. > :35:43.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:44. > :35:48.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:49. > :35:54.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:55. > :35:57.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:58. > :36:03.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:04. > :36:09.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:10. > :36:17.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:18. > :36:20.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people,
:36:21. > :36:23.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:24. > :36:28.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:29. > :36:31.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:32. > :36:35.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:36. > :36:40.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:41. > :36:43.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution...
:36:44. > :36:52.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:53. > :36:57.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:58. > :37:01.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:02. > :37:06.that anybody has been fitted up. We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:07. > :37:10.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:11. > :37:17.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:18. > :37:27.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:28. > :37:33.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:34. > :37:44.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:45. > :37:48.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:49. > :37:52.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:53. > :37:56.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:57. > :38:03.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:04. > :38:08.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:09. > :38:12.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:13. > :38:19.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:20. > :38:25.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:26. > :38:28.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:29. > :38:30.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:31. > :38:39.Hello once again from the Midlands. services cannot help?
:38:40. > :38:44.Hello once again from the Midlands. I'm Patrick Burns. Our guests today
:38:45. > :38:47.stand on opposite sides of one of the deepest divides in British
:38:48. > :38:51.politics ` between Birmingham and the Black Country.
:38:52. > :38:54.James Morris, Conservative MP for Halesowen and Rowley Regis, is a
:38:55. > :38:59.member of the Communities and Local Government Select Committee. Khalid
:39:00. > :39:08.Mahmood has been the Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Barr since 2001.
:39:09. > :39:12.Let's begin with that extraordinary onslaught on Britain's biggest city
:39:13. > :39:15.outside London. Sir Michael Wilshaw, head of the education watchdog
:39:16. > :39:16.Ofsted, started with the catastrophic failures in
:39:17. > :39:18.Birmingham's Children's Services Department, culminating recently in
:39:19. > :39:21.the shocking revelations surrounding the case of two`year`old Keanu
:39:22. > :39:30.Williams, beaten to death by his mother. But then Sir Michael
:39:31. > :39:42.broadened`out, into an excoriating tirade against the city itself. Why
:39:43. > :39:48.is it that more than a third of children in the city lived in
:39:49. > :39:52.households on low incomes? Why is it that infant mortality is almost
:39:53. > :39:59.twice the national average? Worse than in Cuba and on par with Latvia
:40:00. > :40:02.and Chile. Why is it that Birmingham has some of the worst levels of
:40:03. > :40:09.statutory homelessness in the country? Why is it that levels of
:40:10. > :40:14.long`term unemployment in the city are more than double the national
:40:15. > :40:24.average? These are shocking statistics and a national disgrace.
:40:25. > :40:28.Why is it asks Sir Michael? This is an issue that you have taken a long
:40:29. > :40:36.term interest, children's protection in Birmingham. I agree with most of
:40:37. > :40:42.the questions and we need to address them. We have not done so in the
:40:43. > :40:47.last eight years in terms of children's services. We need to look
:40:48. > :40:51.at systemic failures but on the other questions about infant
:40:52. > :40:57.mortality and homelessness, we need to look out what national government
:40:58. > :41:03.is doing to support Birmingham. What would your answer be to that
:41:04. > :41:08.question? On the point about child protection, it is very disturbing
:41:09. > :41:13.that both Birmingham city council and Sandwell Council have been
:41:14. > :41:17.listed on this 20 local authorities deemed inadequate. That is a
:41:18. > :41:28.shocking failure of our most vulnerable children. We need now to
:41:29. > :41:33.get a grip because these people are letting down some of the most
:41:34. > :41:39.vulnerable children. The other thing that concerns people is the
:41:40. > :41:47.collateral damage, the sense that he is likening Birmingham to some sort
:41:48. > :41:54.of disaster area generally. He does make a valid point. They are very
:41:55. > :42:00.serious issues he has raised and that is why we need to address
:42:01. > :42:07.those. We need to pick`up the pieces and deal with them. It is not just
:42:08. > :42:12.Birmingham, there was an article in the Economist which says
:42:13. > :42:21.Wolverhampton, people should be paid to leave it. I do not accept that.
:42:22. > :42:26.What we need to be doing is support the Black Country economy, look at
:42:27. > :42:30.how we can create jobs and opportunities for young people in
:42:31. > :42:34.the Black Country and that speaks to the importance of rebalancing the
:42:35. > :42:45.economy making sure Wolverhampton can invest in the future in their
:42:46. > :42:50.areas. Do you think in a wider sense there is something regrettable about
:42:51. > :42:58.all this, in the sense it gives the metropolitan elite to sneer? Very
:42:59. > :43:05.much so. The amount of funding cut is making it very difficult for us
:43:06. > :43:08.to move forward. Various funding and opportunities for Birmingham and the
:43:09. > :43:17.broader West Midlands to start developing, lots of recent signs of
:43:18. > :43:20.good economic growth. Coming up in a few minutes: what
:43:21. > :43:23.happens when the mentally ill are treated like criminals? Innocent
:43:24. > :43:26.people are handcuffed and locked`up in the cells. It's costing the
:43:27. > :43:29.police time and money that could be better spent elsewhere. We'll have
:43:30. > :43:33.more on this a little later. Could we be seeing those fabled
:43:34. > :43:36."green shoots of recovery" in the West Midlands labour market at last?
:43:37. > :43:39.The latest figures showed a welcome drop in unemployment in our part of
:43:40. > :43:44.the country, the first fall here since December last year. So is it
:43:45. > :43:51.just a blip, or the start of a genuine downward trend? Sarah
:43:52. > :43:56.Falkland reports. Jacqui Gray was facing redundancy
:43:57. > :44:02.earlier this year. The jewellery shop she had worked in was not doing
:44:03. > :44:06.well but she avoided unemployment by becoming her own boss. My family and
:44:07. > :44:12.friends have been brilliant, really supportive and it was just like, if
:44:13. > :44:21.I got made redundant at a certain age, would I find another job? Jobs
:44:22. > :44:25.are quite scarce. Jacqui was helped by a free training course called
:44:26. > :44:30.Prime aimed at older workers. The uptake in the West Midlands has been
:44:31. > :44:35.high. Unemployment in the region fell for the first time since last
:44:36. > :44:44.December. It dropped by 14,000 in the last quarter, meaning 254,000
:44:45. > :44:49.people are now out of work and that rate is higher than the national
:44:50. > :44:55.average. There was no complacency from our MP. The West Midlands is
:44:56. > :45:01.still lagging behind other regions. There is a lot more that we need to
:45:02. > :45:06.do to encourage job creation in the West Midlands but we are on the road
:45:07. > :45:10.to recovery. The figures are undoubtedly welcome but the
:45:11. > :45:14.celebrations are on hold. Only been north`east has more unemployment
:45:15. > :45:20.than the West Midlands and the total here is still higher than at this
:45:21. > :45:26.time last year. The road to recovery may have a few placeds ahead. It is
:45:27. > :45:32.nice to have something to celebrate but we are still well ahead of the
:45:33. > :45:36.national average in terms of unemployment and in Birmingham, six
:45:37. > :45:42.of every ten people available for work are not in a job. Clearly, it
:45:43. > :45:49.varies more to do and we have seen some very good indicators on the
:45:50. > :45:55.economy, strong exporting numbers and strong manufacturing. The only
:45:56. > :46:02.way to create jobs is to create good quality private sector for time jobs
:46:03. > :46:08.but we need to do more. Particular areas concern 16`24 `year`olds and
:46:09. > :46:13.there are aspects of the work programme do not bear down on the
:46:14. > :46:20.problems. Long`term unemployment is coming down. We need to do more in
:46:21. > :46:28.order to address those issues. The route to recovery is we begin to
:46:29. > :46:33.recover by creating good quality private sector jobs, improving
:46:34. > :46:38.investment. If you look at the action the government is taking, the
:46:39. > :46:41.regional jobs fund, put it all together, their wrist targeted help
:46:42. > :47:01.for individuals if they match certain criteria. The real issue
:47:02. > :47:06.here is... We have bits that mess around with issues but do not
:47:07. > :47:13.constructively support the issue. Under advantage West Midlands,
:47:14. > :47:17.private sector employment under Labour fell and regional disparities
:47:18. > :47:21.grew so I do not think that is the solution. The solution is to build
:47:22. > :47:30.on the export and manufacturing growth we have got. We are bringing
:47:31. > :47:32.in a ?2 billion growth fund of which Birmingham and the Black Country
:47:33. > :47:40.will be able to get money for investment. The last think Labour
:47:41. > :47:46.wants is the economy to come completely good and vindicate the
:47:47. > :47:50.government's approach. We want to ensure people get the jobs they want
:47:51. > :47:55.but we want to get those jobs as soon as possible and the levels of
:47:56. > :48:00.living for those people are increased and that is what we want
:48:01. > :48:07.to do. Labour accused the government of a cost of living crisis. In real
:48:08. > :48:15.terms, people are worse off. You need to recover the economy and
:48:16. > :48:23.build on the export growth we are seeing. That is the only way out.
:48:24. > :48:25.They were billed as a radical departure in political
:48:26. > :48:29.accountability, a fresh pair of eyes at the top of every police force.
:48:30. > :48:32.One of the first things to strike the "fresh pair of eyes" of
:48:33. > :48:35.Staffordshire's new Police Commissioner, Matthew Ellis was the
:48:36. > :48:38.cost, almost ?1 million a year, of policing issues involving people
:48:39. > :48:41.with mental illnesses. We'll talk to Mr Ellis shortly. But let's hear
:48:42. > :48:43.first from our BBC Stoke Political reporter. Phil McCann explains why
:48:44. > :48:55.the police increasingly describe themselves as 'the agency of last
:48:56. > :48:59.resort". It is an ordinary weekday night in
:49:00. > :49:11.Stoke`on`Trent and the police get a call. They are trying to drill
:49:12. > :49:16.through my house. They are next door and trying to get through the wall.
:49:17. > :49:21.The caller believes people are trying to drill through his wall and
:49:22. > :49:26.harm him. The police note it will not be the last they hear from him
:49:27. > :49:33.tonight. A few hours later the police have to go around again. I
:49:34. > :49:38.need someone to come out ASAP. He has a knife, all kinds of weapons.
:49:39. > :49:45.The situation gets volatile and this time it ends up in custody. Last
:49:46. > :49:49.year Staffordshire police's call centres dealt with over 15,000
:49:50. > :49:55.incidents when there were concerns with someone with mental health
:49:56. > :50:02.issues. It can take four offices of 24`macro hours, up to 25% of their
:50:03. > :50:05.time. Just about everyone agrees with Staffordshire's police and
:50:06. > :50:11.crime commission that this is not the best place for someone with
:50:12. > :50:15.mental health problems. This place is designed for people who have
:50:16. > :50:22.allegedly offended not people who are vulnerable with mental health
:50:23. > :50:27.issues and so I believe `` do not believe this place is appropriate.
:50:28. > :50:31.It has gone right to the top. The Home Secretary address the
:50:32. > :50:36.organisation that represents rank and file police officers. These
:50:37. > :50:41.officers are skilled but they are not in the position to be
:50:42. > :50:46.psychiatrists nor are they meant to be social workers or ambulance
:50:47. > :50:51.drivers. You are put in that role because when members of the public
:50:52. > :50:56.have concerns about an individual's safety, they do not know who to call
:50:57. > :51:04.but police. But progress is being made. Psychiatric nurses are now
:51:05. > :51:11.based in custody. It is not an environment. People are here, on
:51:12. > :51:17.camera, people with paranoid ideas, certain types of psychosis, it will
:51:18. > :51:22.only exacerbate the situation. There is now talk of safe houses being
:51:23. > :51:31.setup but with budget is tight, the question is who pays?
:51:32. > :51:44.Here is Staffordshire's police and crime Commissioner Matthew Ellis. He
:51:45. > :51:49.is now coming up to his first anniversary. I have been reading
:51:50. > :51:54.through the mental health review and in broad terms, it is calling for
:51:55. > :52:03.joined up approach is on this issue between the police and other
:52:04. > :52:06.agencies. I was fascinated when I first got elected talking to front
:52:07. > :52:11.line officers and mental health issues and technology were the
:52:12. > :52:16.things they brought up. We need to join services are better and only
:52:17. > :52:20.this week I have invested a large amount of money in mental health
:52:21. > :52:26.services which will free up police time and stop people who are simply
:52:27. > :52:32.ill being locked up in cells. We have seen how disturbing it can be
:52:33. > :52:36.in the report but you are not saying that there are never circumstances
:52:37. > :52:43.in which the only course is for the police to intervene. Let's be
:52:44. > :52:47.clear, the police should be there to stabilise a situation, make a
:52:48. > :52:53.situation safe. What is not happening is once they have done
:52:54. > :52:56.that, being able to hand over to specialist agencies. We are
:52:57. > :53:01.expecting officers to be something they are not and we need to change
:53:02. > :53:10.that. Joining up the system, trying to make sure we look at the public
:53:11. > :53:15.purse as one virtual amount of money, that is what we need to do
:53:16. > :53:19.and I have a very strong programme in place to make sure we look at the
:53:20. > :53:27.most effective place to spend money and above all, stop this interesting
:53:28. > :53:32.so we can reduce the demand in future. Restraining someone in this
:53:33. > :53:36.sort of situation can be a pretty unsophisticated operation. We are
:53:37. > :53:43.dealing with very vulnerable people here. Maybe officers should be
:53:44. > :53:47.better trained? We need to make sure officers are trained properly and
:53:48. > :53:51.the chief constable is making sure officers are trained properly but
:53:52. > :53:56.nothing is going to be trying to spend money in the right place. Too
:53:57. > :54:04.often at the moment, this is a local issue, this is a local failure in
:54:05. > :54:11.services as far as I am concerned, if we invest in stopping things
:54:12. > :54:14.happening, early intervention, we will reduce demand on services and
:54:15. > :54:21.we will stop people being locked up inappropriately. James, you take a
:54:22. > :54:27.particular interest in issues surrounding mental health. I am
:54:28. > :54:31.chairman of the all`party group on mental health. Matthew is saying
:54:32. > :54:37.their right areas where money has to be the answer. I agree that the
:54:38. > :54:42.solution is much better working between the police and the NHS.
:54:43. > :54:46.There are a number of pilots being tried around street tree arching
:54:47. > :54:56.where police are working in cooperation with nurses. I am
:54:57. > :55:00.pleased to see that the police and crime commissioners are picking up
:55:01. > :55:11.the cudgels of mental health and driving it Fulwood. One said we have
:55:12. > :55:16.to find beds in places fit for purpose and another says we need to
:55:17. > :55:22.put resources of front which will save on after`care. I think that is
:55:23. > :55:29.a critical point. Early intervention is clearly going to be critical.
:55:30. > :55:32.This is a consequence of 18 years of bad policy under our government and
:55:33. > :55:41.the previous Conservative government. That then went on to the
:55:42. > :55:46.community and what we have now done is closed down those organisations
:55:47. > :55:51.because they have no funding and therefore the police pick up the
:55:52. > :55:54.pieces. There should be proper provision for these people. We
:55:55. > :56:03.should be supporting them and not using the police as a last resort.
:56:04. > :56:09.That is the word you feel. The only way I would disagree is not the
:56:10. > :56:14.amount of money but where it is spent and that it is spent in the
:56:15. > :56:19.right place. This is something we need to nail. The strategy I have
:56:20. > :56:27.setup is based upon trying to deal with things before they get out of
:56:28. > :56:30.hand, so I am saying... There should be a multi`agency approach but that
:56:31. > :56:37.has to bring in with the health profession is dealing with it and
:56:38. > :56:44.then assisting the police. It is unacceptable we have prison cells
:56:45. > :56:49.used as a place of safety. We heard that if someone is suffering from a
:56:50. > :56:54.form of paranoia, being held in a cell and supervised was the last
:56:55. > :57:03.thing that a vulnerable person in that position would need. We have
:57:04. > :57:10.forgotten, all the funding pushed to the side and that is now we have two
:57:11. > :57:16.pick up the pieces. Do you think things are moving forward now? I
:57:17. > :57:20.think they are. The issue is now firmly on the agenda. In
:57:21. > :57:24.Staffordshire there are small signs of progress. I have invested money
:57:25. > :57:30.this week in services that will go to some weight sorting this out but
:57:31. > :57:37.this is about services working together.
:57:38. > :57:41.Now for our regular round`up of the political week in the Midlands in 60
:57:42. > :57:43.seconds, brought to us today by BBC Midlands Today's Elizabeth Glinka.
:57:44. > :57:47.Environment Secretary Owen Paterson has been sowing seeds of discontent.
:57:48. > :57:50.He says opponents of GM crops are wicked and are condemning millions
:57:51. > :57:52.of people in poorer countries to hunger.
:57:53. > :57:55.Worcester is known as the Faithful City, but nobody told Councillor
:57:56. > :57:57.Jabba Riaz. He quit the city's Conservative group to join Labour,
:57:58. > :58:03.blaming David Cameron's "disastrous policies."
:58:04. > :58:07.Sir David Higgins takes over at HS2 next year. The Network Rail Chief
:58:08. > :58:15.says he wants to kick`on with the project which is rapidly becoming a
:58:16. > :58:21.political football. It is too important for that. It is crucially
:58:22. > :58:23.important for the nation to spread wealth but also important for rail
:58:24. > :58:26.infrastructure. Birmingham Northfield MP Richard
:58:27. > :58:29.Burden wants schools to do more to celebrate white culture. Professor
:58:30. > :58:32.Carl Chinn and Billy Bragg are suggested as potential role models.
:58:33. > :58:34.And the Chief Constables of West Mercia, Warwickshire and West
:58:35. > :58:38.Midlands Police head to Westminster this week to explain themselves over
:58:39. > :58:51.the Andrew Mitchell affair. The PM wants an apology. So does Theresa
:58:52. > :58:55.May. That should be a lively session of the home affairs select
:58:56. > :59:02.committee. James, do you think the police I Andrew Mitchell an apology?
:59:03. > :59:05.They do. This raises serious questions about the police to
:59:06. > :59:11.investigate themselves and it will be interesting to see what comes out
:59:12. > :59:16.of this enquiry on Wednesday, but it does raise serious issues about the
:59:17. > :59:21.way the police have investigated this matter. The real issue here is
:59:22. > :59:26.the cabinet minister looked at the CCTV and why did they allow it to
:59:27. > :59:32.continue at the same time? Nick Clegg says he does not want this to
:59:33. > :59:38.descend into a slanging match but it is heading that way. It does raise
:59:39. > :59:43.issues about the way the police have conducted themselves in relation to
:59:44. > :59:47.Andrew Mitchell. The Police Federation behaved in a way that was
:59:48. > :59:53.inappropriate, trashing the career of the Chief Whip and more will come
:59:54. > :59:56.out of this. There is the question of trust, particularly when you
:59:57. > :00:03.think of areas where the growing role of the state's surveillance,
:00:04. > :00:09.lots of controversy about that and the police, a particular level of
:00:10. > :00:14.pro victory is required. We have to bring back confidence. The police
:00:15. > :00:22.protect us and we have to ensure we have that trust and security from
:00:23. > :00:28.them. General concern about trust in the police? I would agree and the
:00:29. > :00:34.first role of police and crime commissioners is to try and engender
:00:35. > :00:39.that ability for the public to trust in transparency that is going on. I
:00:40. > :00:44.have put a mechanism in place where the police are criticised, I have
:00:45. > :00:49.senior officials in those meetings not getting involved but being able
:00:50. > :00:55.to tell me, Commissioner, this was done in a way I would expect it to
:00:56. > :01:03.be done. That is what had happened at Staffordshire. That is not what
:01:04. > :01:08.has happened in this particular case. We will keep a close watch on
:01:09. > :01:11.this during the days ahead. Many thanks to James Morris, Khalid
:01:12. > :01:14.Mahmood and Matthew Ellis. There'll be more on our main talking point,
:01:15. > :01:16.tomorrow evening. "Inside Out" will be reporting from Staffordshire on
:01:17. > :01:20.the challenges confronting health professionals and the police alike,
:01:21. > :01:23.as they try to help people with mental illness who've fallen through
:01:24. > :01:28.the net. That's with Mary Rhodes at 7.30pm here on BBC One in the West
:01:29. > :01:33.Midlands. This, though, is where we rejoin Andrew Neill.
:01:34. > :01:36.which links in with this. Thank you to both of you for being my guests
:01:37. > :01:50.today. Are the Lib Dems like a wonky
:01:51. > :01:56.shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg kicking off over free schools? And
:01:57. > :02:02.what about Boris and George's love bombing of China? All questions for
:02:03. > :02:06.The Week Ahead. We are joined now by the former Home Office minister and
:02:07. > :02:15.Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this
:02:16. > :02:19.key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in the ascendancy in your party, those
:02:20. > :02:24.who would fear to the left, or those who would fear to the centre? The
:02:25. > :02:30.point I was making in the interview that I gave to the times was that I
:02:31. > :02:41.want us to be unambiguously and on up genetically -- and
:02:42. > :02:45.unapologetically a Liberal party. I do not want us to be craving the
:02:46. > :02:49.approval of columnists like Polly Toynbee. I do not want us to be a
:02:50. > :02:54.pale imitation of the Labour Party. I think we should be proud and
:02:55. > :02:59.unambiguously a authentic Liberal party. That is my ambition for the
:03:00. > :03:03.party. If it is, as you put it, fearing to the left, then I think
:03:04. > :03:10.that is a mistake, I think we should be on the liberal centre ground But
:03:11. > :03:13.is it actually veering to the left, your party? I think there is a
:03:14. > :03:19.danger when a party, or any organisation, feels that it is in a
:03:20. > :03:27.difficult position, to look inwards, to look for reassuring
:03:28. > :03:31.familiar policy positions. I do not want us to be the party which looks
:03:32. > :03:35.inwards and speaks to the 9% of people who are minded to support us
:03:36. > :03:39.already. I want us to look outwards and speak to the 91% of the
:03:40. > :03:42.population, for whom I think we have got a good story to tell about the
:03:43. > :03:47.contribution we have made to getting the deficit down, cutting crime
:03:48. > :03:52.keeping interest rates low, and also, distinctive Liberal Democrat
:03:53. > :03:56.policies for example on income tax and pupil premiums. If we look like
:03:57. > :04:00.we are a party which is uneasy and ambivalent about our role in
:04:01. > :04:03.government, people will not give us credit for the successes of the
:04:04. > :04:07.government, and we will not be able to claim the authorship which we
:04:08. > :04:10.should be able to claim for our policies excesses in government I
:04:11. > :04:17.want us to be confident, outward looking, and authentically liberal.
:04:18. > :04:21.If we are that, people real sense that and they will respond
:04:22. > :04:25.positively. Does that not therefore make it rather strange that Nick
:04:26. > :04:31.Craig should choose to distance himself from the coalition's schools
:04:32. > :04:41.policy? Well, I support free schools, I think they are a liberal
:04:42. > :04:46.policy. Education is a fascinating area, so let's explore it a bit We
:04:47. > :04:50.have had two very significant and troubling reports in the last
:04:51. > :04:53.fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, saying that social mobility has
:04:54. > :04:56.stalled in this country, in other words, what your parents do is a
:04:57. > :05:01.reliable guide to how you will get on in life and the other saying that
:05:02. > :05:04.Britain lags behind our competitors, the other
:05:05. > :05:08.industrialised countries, in terms of the educational attainment of
:05:09. > :05:12.15-year-olds. Both of those are worrying. We have a scandalous
:05:13. > :05:15.situation in this country where two thirds of children from
:05:16. > :05:25.disadvantaged backgrounds are failing to get five Grade A to Grade
:05:26. > :05:28.C. Some get none at all. If we were the world leaders in education, we
:05:29. > :05:31.could have an interesting conversation about how we are able
:05:32. > :05:35.to maintain that position, but we are not. Whether there are good
:05:36. > :05:39.things one less good things which have happened in our schools over
:05:40. > :05:44.the last 30-40 years, we really need to raise our game and stop letting
:05:45. > :05:46.young people down who need a good quality education in order to
:05:47. > :05:53.realise their full potential in life. It sounds like you do not
:05:54. > :05:58.share Mr Clegg's designations? I think there are two big dangers for
:05:59. > :06:03.us as a party. I do not think we should be instinctively statist and
:06:04. > :06:07.I do not think either we should be instinctively in favour of the
:06:08. > :06:13.status quo. I want us to have a restless, radical, energetic,
:06:14. > :06:15.liberal reforming instinct, which is about putting more power and
:06:16. > :06:20.responsible at the end opportunity in the hands of individual people.
:06:21. > :06:24.As I say, we look at the education system, of course there are good
:06:25. > :06:27.teachers and good outcomes in some schools and for some pupils,
:06:28. > :06:31.overall, our performance in this country is not good enough, so the
:06:32. > :06:44.status quo has not been a successful stop I am interested in how we can
:06:45. > :06:50.innovate. -- has not been a success. Are the Tories wooing you? Well I
:06:51. > :06:57.do not know if that is the right word, I have been reported, and I
:06:58. > :07:01.have set myself, that the Conservatives have, if you like
:07:02. > :07:06.made some advances or generous suggestions to me, but I am a
:07:07. > :07:09.liberal, and I am a Liberal Democrat. I have been a member of
:07:10. > :07:13.the Lib Dems since the party was founded, I joined when I was 18
:07:14. > :07:18.years old. I have campaigned tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats
:07:19. > :07:21.for my entire adult life, so I am not about to go and join another
:07:22. > :07:29.political party. I would turn this on its head, let me put it like
:07:30. > :07:31.this, I think there are quite a few liberals in the other political
:07:32. > :07:36.parties, people like Alan Milburn, who wrote a report on social
:07:37. > :07:40.mobility, people like Nick Bowles in the Conservative Party. Our
:07:41. > :07:43.ambition, as Liberal Democrats, should be to attract liberals from
:07:44. > :07:55.other political parties, and no political party, to the Lib Dems.
:07:56. > :07:58.Just briefly, have you suggested that the Tories do not run a
:07:59. > :08:04.candidate against you in the next election? I have not suggested
:08:05. > :08:06.anything of the sort. The Conservatives have to make their own
:08:07. > :08:12.decisions about which candidates they select, and I will take on
:08:13. > :08:25.whoever is select it from each of the political parties. Thank you for
:08:26. > :08:29.joining us. There is a danger not from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr
:08:30. > :08:33.Clegg, in that, having been part of a coalition which has gone through
:08:34. > :08:37.an enormous squeeze in living standards for three years, it did
:08:38. > :08:41.not look like both was coming, it was being regarded overall as a
:08:42. > :08:46.failure, but now, it may be turning the corner, so why would you then
:08:47. > :08:53.start to disassociate yourself from the coalition's policies? Yes, the
:08:54. > :08:56.danger for Nick Clegg is that he makes the Liberal Democrats looked
:08:57. > :09:00.like visitors in a guesthouse, a guesthouse which is owned by the
:09:01. > :09:04.Conservatives. As you say, they were there for the three difficult years,
:09:05. > :09:07.and just at the moment when the economy seems to be coming right,
:09:08. > :09:12.and we are getting some nice growth, they seek to distance themselves. It
:09:13. > :09:16.is interesting that Jeremy Browne came out with the outrageously
:09:17. > :09:19.disloyal statement that he supported free schools statement. That is a
:09:20. > :09:24.disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but on Thursday, of course, the Liberal
:09:25. > :09:27.Democrat party was in favour of free schools, because in that statement
:09:28. > :09:31.about the Al-Madinah school, David Laws made a passionate defence about
:09:32. > :09:39.what Nick Clegg is now criticising, which is having on qualified
:09:40. > :09:43.teachers. If things are now coming right, the big risk for the Liberal
:09:44. > :09:48.Democrats always was that they would not get the credit anyway. Well if
:09:49. > :09:54.they diss associate themselves like this, they definitely will not get
:09:55. > :09:58.the credit. It depends which voters their opinion poll ratings are dire,
:09:59. > :10:02.he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it is less than that. So, where are
:10:03. > :10:08.they going to get those voters from? They have not got those
:10:09. > :10:12.anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not Mission impossible, getting Labour
:10:13. > :10:18.voters test surely the left of the Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards
:10:19. > :10:26.labour, not away from Labour? I wonder to what extent, and this
:10:27. > :10:30.might be speculation, this might be organised and arranged, that Cameron
:10:31. > :10:34.and Clegg both understand that they have groups of voters that they need
:10:35. > :10:39.to get, so they need to send messages out to different groups, it
:10:40. > :10:50.looks like a bit of a setup to me. Boris in China, along with boy
:10:51. > :10:55.George - let's have a look... Who, according to JK Rowling, was Harry
:10:56. > :11:01.Potter's first girlfriend? That s right, and she is Chinese overseas
:11:02. > :11:08.student, is that not right at Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure
:11:09. > :11:12.it is right, she is actually from Scotland. It is not only London
:11:13. > :11:18.which has a diverse society. Putting that to one side, we are inviting
:11:19. > :11:23.the Chinese into finance our power stations, to run big banks in the
:11:24. > :11:27.cities, we are giving out more visas to them, are we right to embrace the
:11:28. > :11:32.Dragon? What worries me about the power stations then, it is 30% of
:11:33. > :11:37.investment, and it reminds me a lot of PFI, the idea that you do not
:11:38. > :11:41.want a huge investment on your balance sheet, but if somebody bails
:11:42. > :11:48.out halfway through, we cannot stop with a half finished power station.
:11:49. > :11:55.It is EDF, the French company, which will actually build it, and we will
:11:56. > :11:59.be guaranteeing the debt for them. It is extraordinary that there has
:12:00. > :12:04.been so little adverse comment after George Osborne and Boris's trip to
:12:05. > :12:13.China, and is it now really the UK Government policy, to sell Britain
:12:14. > :12:17.to the Chinese? There was a debate in government about this, as they
:12:18. > :12:21.were getting ready for the trip and there will be at some point in the
:12:22. > :12:24.next six months be a David Cameron trip to China. He has had to wait
:12:25. > :12:28.three years because they were annoyed about him meeting the Dalai
:12:29. > :12:32.llama. There were some people in the Foreign Office who were saying,
:12:33. > :12:38.fine, but tread carefully. George Osborne's view is absolutely not,
:12:39. > :12:46.get in there, I do not care about any of these problems, get stuck
:12:47. > :12:51.in. I think he is storing up five years since the financial crisis,
:12:52. > :12:54.Chinese banks are being given a special, light touch regulatory
:12:55. > :13:04.regime. What could possibly go wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy
:13:05. > :13:11.prices have continued to dominate this week. We have got the EDF deal,
:13:12. > :13:14.whereby we are going to be giving them twice the market rate for their
:13:15. > :13:23.energy. But for the coalition, all eyes are on the GDP figures. The
:13:24. > :13:25.expectation and hope is that the recovery will be stronger than the
:13:26. > :13:32.figures have suggested so far, on which basis it can influence the
:13:33. > :13:37.result of the next general election. The chief economist at the
:13:38. > :13:40.Bank of England was saying on Twitter last week that the Bank of
:13:41. > :13:44.England may now bring forward the assessment when it says, maybe we
:13:45. > :13:49.are going to have to change monetary policy, if unemployment goes below
:13:50. > :13:58.7%. And we know what that means interest rates. The Bank of England
:13:59. > :14:02.on Twitter! That is it for today. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow
:14:03. > :14:06.on BBC Two. I will be back with prime Minster 's questions on
:14:07. > :14:07.Wednesday, and of course, we will be back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next
:14:08. > :14:14.Sunday.