:00:40. > :00:53.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as
:00:54. > :00:57.Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to
:00:58. > :01:02.MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate
:01:03. > :01:07.the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that
:01:08. > :01:12.capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong
:01:13. > :01:17.arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be
:01:18. > :01:18.sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they
:01:19. > :01:26.should be covered up. Our Midlands of voters opposed to
:01:27. > :01:37.turn the UKIP factor into UKIP authority is investigating --
:01:38. > :01:43.investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on
:01:44. > :01:50.its staff. With me as always, the best and the
:01:51. > :01:54.brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt
:01:55. > :01:57.who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they
:01:58. > :02:04.got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to
:02:05. > :02:08.a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home
:02:09. > :02:12.Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the
:02:13. > :02:16.treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met
:02:17. > :02:21.him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was
:02:22. > :02:25.prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.
:02:26. > :02:32.But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.
:02:33. > :02:35.Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.
:02:36. > :02:39.The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there
:02:40. > :02:46.enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the
:02:47. > :02:50.police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad
:02:51. > :02:54.and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for
:02:55. > :02:59.contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to
:03:00. > :03:03.prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what
:03:04. > :03:08.is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try
:03:09. > :03:16.to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from
:03:17. > :03:20.day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I
:03:21. > :03:27.knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.
:03:28. > :03:30.And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as
:03:31. > :03:36.to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not
:03:37. > :03:40.will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the
:03:41. > :03:45.Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can
:03:46. > :03:51.say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under
:03:52. > :03:56.statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This
:03:57. > :04:00.is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy
:04:01. > :04:07.of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will
:04:08. > :04:12.keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung
:04:13. > :04:17.the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like
:04:18. > :04:21.his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the
:04:22. > :04:28.report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in
:04:29. > :04:31.Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as
:04:32. > :04:37.deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len
:04:38. > :04:43.McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out
:04:44. > :04:48.the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a
:04:49. > :04:52.petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the
:04:53. > :04:56.Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come
:04:57. > :05:00.under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance
:05:01. > :05:07.demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of
:05:08. > :05:13.a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy
:05:14. > :05:18.the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems
:05:19. > :05:24.to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in
:05:25. > :05:29.deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him
:05:30. > :05:34.as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of
:05:35. > :05:40.labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend
:05:41. > :05:46.of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any
:05:47. > :05:56.wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len
:05:57. > :06:02.McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is
:06:03. > :06:09.in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion
:06:10. > :06:16.trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved
:06:17. > :06:22.in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing
:06:23. > :06:26.new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in
:06:27. > :06:30.the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had
:06:31. > :06:35.done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in
:06:36. > :06:41.Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says
:06:42. > :06:46.you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to
:06:47. > :06:50.fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you
:06:51. > :06:55.thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the
:06:56. > :07:03.Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then
:07:04. > :07:07.instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and
:07:08. > :07:11.during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened
:07:12. > :07:16.and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I
:07:17. > :07:22.was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent
:07:23. > :07:26.enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing
:07:27. > :07:30.because the people who originally complained changed their evidence
:07:31. > :07:36.and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to
:07:37. > :07:42.rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.
:07:43. > :07:50.We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that
:07:51. > :07:57.all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting
:07:58. > :08:01.the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are
:08:02. > :08:09.allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were
:08:10. > :08:13.put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they
:08:14. > :08:19.doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations
:08:20. > :08:24.that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea
:08:25. > :08:29.that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families
:08:30. > :08:38.has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They
:08:39. > :08:42.clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved
:08:43. > :08:49.in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.
:08:50. > :08:53.Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they
:08:54. > :09:01.are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position
:09:02. > :09:09.is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw
:09:10. > :09:17.their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his
:09:18. > :09:20.family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full
:09:21. > :09:28.weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to
:09:29. > :09:34.Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an
:09:35. > :09:39.independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:09:40. > :09:46.office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,
:09:47. > :09:50.the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks
:09:51. > :09:58.for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since
:09:59. > :10:07.when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to
:10:08. > :10:14.the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and
:10:15. > :10:18.it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making
:10:19. > :10:25.decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift
:10:26. > :10:34.back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent
:10:35. > :10:38.protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was
:10:39. > :10:44.not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling
:10:45. > :10:52.everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had
:10:53. > :11:00.loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to
:11:01. > :11:07.join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the
:11:08. > :11:12.Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going
:11:13. > :11:17.to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were
:11:18. > :11:24.loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the
:11:25. > :11:30.Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have
:11:31. > :11:35.used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at
:11:36. > :11:41.people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to
:11:42. > :11:48.look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an
:11:49. > :11:51.absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the
:11:52. > :11:59.21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the
:12:00. > :12:03.wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever
:12:04. > :12:12.it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk
:12:13. > :12:21.constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your
:12:22. > :12:27.opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con
:12:28. > :12:34.trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your
:12:35. > :12:38.legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of
:12:39. > :12:44.trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband
:12:45. > :12:48.wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way
:12:49. > :12:54.ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company
:12:55. > :12:59.started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,
:13:00. > :13:05.that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called
:13:06. > :13:10.INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring
:13:11. > :13:17.Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to
:13:18. > :13:24.a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who
:13:25. > :13:30.says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it
:13:31. > :13:36.in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make
:13:37. > :13:39.that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You
:13:40. > :13:46.instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what
:13:47. > :13:52.Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the
:13:53. > :13:58.petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due
:13:59. > :14:05.introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was
:14:06. > :14:08.being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost
:14:09. > :14:15.Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was
:14:16. > :14:19.saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and
:14:20. > :14:27.humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len
:14:28. > :14:34.McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with
:14:35. > :14:38.INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop
:14:39. > :14:42.stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns
:14:43. > :14:50.and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has
:14:51. > :14:55.condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have
:14:56. > :15:00.you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour
:15:01. > :15:05.Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested
:15:06. > :15:10.in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the
:15:11. > :15:17.requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last
:15:18. > :15:21.Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will
:15:22. > :15:26.continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they
:15:27. > :15:32.are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.
:15:33. > :15:38.You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.
:15:39. > :15:44.We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company
:15:45. > :15:49.to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking
:15:50. > :15:54.unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive
:15:55. > :16:01.industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all
:16:02. > :16:04.Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to
:16:05. > :16:10.implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is
:16:11. > :16:14.what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our
:16:15. > :16:20.members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not
:16:21. > :16:25.be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as
:16:26. > :16:38.disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My
:16:39. > :16:43.membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are
:16:44. > :16:46.executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me
:16:47. > :16:51.standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I
:16:52. > :17:06.will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us
:17:07. > :17:08.by the media. "A country ready to welcome your
:17:09. > :17:10.investment which values your friendship and will never exclude
:17:11. > :17:14.anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The
:17:15. > :17:16.words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which
:17:17. > :17:20.was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm
:17:21. > :17:22.words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a
:17:23. > :17:25.spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the
:17:26. > :17:28.wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of
:17:29. > :17:31.some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the
:17:32. > :17:41.Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.
:17:42. > :17:45.First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east
:17:46. > :17:50.London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,
:17:51. > :17:55.one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it
:17:56. > :18:00.frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the
:18:01. > :18:03.British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,
:18:04. > :18:08.traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate
:18:09. > :18:12.to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one
:18:13. > :18:21.question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to
:18:22. > :18:25.address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront
:18:26. > :18:29.radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of
:18:30. > :18:39.sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not
:18:40. > :18:45.nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young
:18:46. > :18:49.Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using
:18:50. > :18:56.Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this
:18:57. > :19:04.work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has
:19:05. > :19:13.been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public
:19:14. > :19:17.to please people but in private something very different is being
:19:18. > :19:23.said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,
:19:24. > :19:31.it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for
:19:32. > :19:36.radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's
:19:37. > :19:41.faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if
:19:42. > :19:49.rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some
:19:50. > :19:56.sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,
:19:57. > :20:00.and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and
:20:01. > :20:06.it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially
:20:07. > :20:11.when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to
:20:12. > :20:14.talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There
:20:15. > :20:21.is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the
:20:22. > :20:27.one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist
:20:28. > :20:38.perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of
:20:39. > :20:53.minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public
:20:54. > :21:05.places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy
:21:06. > :21:09.of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and
:21:10. > :21:11.that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the
:21:12. > :21:17.preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council
:21:18. > :21:21.of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating
:21:22. > :21:27.sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved
:21:28. > :21:34.predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for
:21:35. > :21:40.some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We
:21:41. > :21:47.need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the
:21:48. > :21:51.normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and
:21:52. > :21:59.chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that
:22:00. > :22:04.actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible
:22:05. > :22:10.with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to
:22:11. > :22:14.women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures
:22:15. > :22:19.of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain
:22:20. > :22:28.itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they
:22:29. > :22:36.are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to
:22:37. > :22:36.are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are
:22:37. > :22:41.experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages
:22:42. > :22:44.what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not
:22:45. > :22:49.being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance
:22:50. > :22:52.rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been
:22:53. > :22:57.found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in
:22:58. > :23:03.this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what
:23:04. > :23:09.are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem
:23:10. > :23:13.of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be
:23:14. > :23:18.exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many
:23:19. > :23:23.Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a
:23:24. > :23:30.big cultural gap will exist between the two.
:23:31. > :23:33.And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq
:23:34. > :23:42.Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the
:23:43. > :23:49.veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible
:23:50. > :23:57.to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory
:23:58. > :23:59.requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting
:24:00. > :24:13.themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst
:24:14. > :24:16.wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life
:24:17. > :24:20.successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red
:24:21. > :24:27.herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim
:24:28. > :24:37.girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point
:24:38. > :24:41.of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the
:24:42. > :24:50.public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones
:24:51. > :24:57.who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a
:24:58. > :25:04.practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour
:25:05. > :25:09.it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women
:25:10. > :25:15.should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the
:25:16. > :25:20.veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is
:25:21. > :25:26.important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free
:25:27. > :25:30.choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their
:25:31. > :25:35.free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it
:25:36. > :25:41.helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away
:25:42. > :25:46.from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad
:25:47. > :25:50.thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim
:25:51. > :25:56.preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim
:25:57. > :26:02.women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim
:26:03. > :26:09.women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being
:26:10. > :26:15.forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and
:26:16. > :26:20.what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,
:26:21. > :26:25.very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is
:26:26. > :26:32.wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other
:26:33. > :26:35.Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider
:26:36. > :26:45.that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any
:26:46. > :26:49.Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an
:26:50. > :26:55.organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not
:26:56. > :27:01.coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by
:27:02. > :27:05.individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that
:27:06. > :27:11.would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would
:27:12. > :27:22.not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires
:27:23. > :27:30.children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you
:27:31. > :27:39.agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have
:27:40. > :27:48.just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a
:27:49. > :27:54.black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on
:27:55. > :28:05.anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.
:28:06. > :28:11.I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think
:28:12. > :28:17.it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would
:28:18. > :28:28.wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some
:28:29. > :28:35.muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the
:28:36. > :28:39.start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I
:28:40. > :28:48.would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic
:28:49. > :28:53.girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the
:28:54. > :29:01.top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.
:29:02. > :29:05.But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those
:29:06. > :29:13.girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I
:29:14. > :29:19.am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.
:29:20. > :29:32.There is a very conservative movement from the continent on
:29:33. > :29:36.Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their
:29:37. > :29:43.website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged
:29:44. > :29:47.to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should
:29:48. > :29:52.not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you
:29:53. > :29:57.think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They
:29:58. > :30:07.are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree
:30:08. > :30:15.with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is
:30:16. > :30:20.what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is
:30:21. > :30:42.quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you
:30:43. > :30:46.agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back
:30:47. > :30:52.to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.
:30:53. > :30:59.This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.
:31:00. > :31:06.Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday
:31:07. > :31:18.mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your
:31:19. > :31:28.counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they
:31:29. > :31:33.have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is
:31:34. > :31:39.advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the
:31:40. > :31:45.Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The
:31:46. > :31:52.Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots
:31:53. > :32:00.of common issues to create a community which positively
:32:01. > :32:07.integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate
:32:08. > :32:10.for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications
:32:11. > :32:18.available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your
:32:19. > :32:28.organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall
:32:29. > :32:38.under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British
:32:39. > :32:44.mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of
:32:45. > :32:50.prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to
:32:51. > :32:56.prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very
:32:57. > :33:04.beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?
:33:05. > :33:14.Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council
:33:15. > :33:19.have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious
:33:20. > :33:26.stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at
:33:27. > :33:43.this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.
:33:44. > :33:55.That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we
:33:56. > :34:00.live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they
:34:01. > :34:06.have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You
:34:07. > :34:13.would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like
:34:14. > :34:20.that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation
:34:21. > :34:24.to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's
:34:25. > :34:32.rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law
:34:33. > :34:40.of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger
:34:41. > :34:47.issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul
:34:48. > :34:58.declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it
:34:59. > :35:07.or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media
:35:08. > :35:13.mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself
:35:14. > :35:21.from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration
:35:22. > :35:30.because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign
:35:31. > :35:36.it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the
:35:37. > :35:46.declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there
:35:47. > :35:48.was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not
:35:49. > :35:55.was a discussion and a debate and it what was meant by the declaration.
:35:56. > :36:02.When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From
:36:03. > :36:08.day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are
:36:09. > :36:14.personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of
:36:15. > :36:25.extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the
:36:26. > :36:29.mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described
:36:30. > :36:33.by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another
:36:34. > :36:39.speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad
:36:40. > :36:43.is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop
:36:44. > :36:52.extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?
:36:53. > :36:58.We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or
:36:59. > :37:02.supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is
:37:03. > :37:08.a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is
:37:09. > :37:14.a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told
:37:15. > :37:18.their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to
:37:19. > :37:29.speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a
:37:30. > :37:36.Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did
:37:37. > :37:41.not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and
:37:42. > :37:51.have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I
:37:52. > :37:57.completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,
:37:58. > :38:02.the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the
:38:03. > :38:07.toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted
:38:08. > :38:13.among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a
:38:14. > :38:20.non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which
:38:21. > :38:28.embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim
:38:29. > :38:33.community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which
:38:34. > :38:37.are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our
:38:38. > :38:44.view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The
:38:45. > :38:49.work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all
:38:50. > :38:55.associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are
:38:56. > :39:06.watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to
:39:07. > :39:13.Hello once again from the Midlands. I'm Patrick Burns. And our guests
:39:14. > :39:16.today are a coming`together of one of the "none of the above" parties,
:39:17. > :39:19.and "one of the above" in the Government. Lorely Burt, Liberal
:39:20. > :39:24.Democrat MP for Solihull, is Danny Alexander's Parliamentary Private
:39:25. > :39:26.Secretary. Whereas, far removed from the Westminster village, Felicity
:39:27. > :39:35.Norman represents the Greens on Herefordshire Council.
:39:36. > :39:38.First up today, the Big Six energy companies, hauled before the Commons
:39:39. > :39:41.Energy and Climate Change Committee including E.ON ` German`owned but
:39:42. > :39:44.with their UK head office in Coventry. They've all been accused
:39:45. > :39:52.of acting like a cartel, allegedly. Of profiteering, allegedly. But
:39:53. > :39:55.E.ON's boss said, despite what politicians of all shades have been
:39:56. > :39:58.telling us, the energy market is far from "broken". He's written to the
:39:59. > :40:09.Prime Minister and the Energy Secretary calling for a thorough
:40:10. > :40:15.review of market competition. We need a thorough competition
:40:16. > :40:22.commission investigation and I believe it would be ready helpful to
:40:23. > :40:27.depoliticise the debate, get expert in to look at it so we can really
:40:28. > :40:31.sort it out once and for all. Mr Cocker also said the green levies
:40:32. > :40:34.which account for around 8% of most people's bills was "a regressive
:40:35. > :40:37.poll tax" and should be switched to general taxation. That's exactly
:40:38. > :40:56.what David Cameron has said, over the heads of his Liberal Democrat
:40:57. > :41:01.partners. It is regressive? What we have been doing is asking the energy
:41:02. > :41:06.companies to incorporate some of the costs like, for example, subsidising
:41:07. > :41:16.and helping the poorest families enabling families with very
:41:17. > :41:22.installation to dashed bad installation to make things better.
:41:23. > :41:28.I do think, speaking personally, Mr Cameron has a point. It is very
:41:29. > :41:31.important we don't lose the green levies. And if we find a more
:41:32. > :41:38.progressive way of making sure that we do fit our energy system for the
:41:39. > :41:42.21st century and a light don't go out, that's probably one of the
:41:43. > :41:48.areas we may come to agreement on. Felicity, there's never been a time
:41:49. > :41:59.when these green levies has been less popular and there is a danger
:42:00. > :42:04.the wider environment arguments get down and. And they have never been
:42:05. > :42:09.more important. It is vital we support them. It is an illusion and
:42:10. > :42:13.constantly we are being told that the economy is more important than
:42:14. > :42:19.the environment in the short term and it's a nonsense. They work
:42:20. > :42:23.together. What is good for the environment is good for the economy.
:42:24. > :42:28.The Chancellor says he doesn't want to be a world leader fighting
:42:29. > :42:35.climate change, we can't do it by ourselves. The rest of the world is
:42:36. > :42:39.way ahead of us. Much of Europe have left standing. We should be ashamed
:42:40. > :42:45.haven't done a better job over the last few years. Are the governments
:42:46. > :42:54.green credentials looking tattered? No, the aim has always been to be
:42:55. > :42:58.the greenest government ever. That is a joke these days. There are huge
:42:59. > :43:03.financial pressures on families, we understand that. We have to make
:43:04. > :43:09.sure that we make sure from an economic point of view we get lots
:43:10. > :43:16.of jobs out of the green agenda that also people pay their bills. Coming
:43:17. > :43:19.up a little later in the programme. Why Midlands voters could be about
:43:20. > :43:23.to turn the so`called 'UKIP factor' into 'UKIP fact'. Six months to go
:43:24. > :43:25.to the European elections and they've never been more confident of
:43:26. > :43:32.transforming our politics forever. We'll have more on this, in a few
:43:33. > :43:35.minutes' time. It's brought rebellion to the
:43:36. > :43:38.Midlands Tory shires, and a warning of 'open warfare' in the Labour
:43:39. > :43:43.Party, from the leader of our biggest city. In a week that saw the
:43:44. > :43:46.start of the Parliamentary epic paving the way for high`speed rail,
:43:47. > :43:50.ministers found a funny way of confirming their support for HS2: by
:43:51. > :43:53.managing`down our expectations of the economic benefits, and admitting
:43:54. > :43:56.they'd talked too much too soon about speed, and not enough about
:43:57. > :43:57.the extra capacity it would deliver. Here's Our Transport Correspondent
:43:58. > :44:08.Peter Plisner. The week began with more sceptical
:44:09. > :44:17.signals from Labour. Lord Mandelson re`stating his opposition to HS2.
:44:18. > :44:22.Frankly, there was too much of the argument that if everyone else has a
:44:23. > :44:26.high`speed train, we should have won two. Regardless of need, regardless
:44:27. > :44:30.of costs and regardless of alternatives. But the Transport
:44:31. > :44:37.Secretary was having none of it. He said HS2 will help revive some of
:44:38. > :44:42.England's major cities. If you talk to the leaders of learning and City
:44:43. > :44:47.Council or Manchester City council or Leeds, they all tell you how
:44:48. > :44:52.vital the project is for their cities. This argument that somehow
:44:53. > :44:55.all of HS2 will benefit London is not something which is shared. And
:44:56. > :45:03.Lorely's boss also had a blunt message for Labour doubters. What I
:45:04. > :45:07.say to Labour is if you are concerned about the economic health
:45:08. > :45:10.of the whole country, HS2 can transform the economic geography of
:45:11. > :45:13.the country. More details about journey times have also been
:45:14. > :45:27.released: Stafford to London, a trip which currently takes an hour and a
:45:28. > :45:31.quarter will be cut to 53 minutes. Thursday and back to the Commons as
:45:32. > :45:34.the bill to pave the way for the new line cleared it's latest hurdle. The
:45:35. > :45:44.parliamentary progress of HS2 is on track but is, it seems, anything but
:45:45. > :45:47.high speed. It's a slow marathon. Peter Plisner reporting.
:45:48. > :45:50.And incidentally we hear that about 50 Labour MPs and peers met the
:45:51. > :45:53.Shadow Transport Secretary Mary Creagh last week demanding an end to
:45:54. > :45:57.the party's mixed messages on HS2, and expressing their determination
:45:58. > :46:00.to see it through. She subsequently put out a statement confirming
:46:01. > :46:02.Labour's support, blaming "Government mismanagement" for
:46:03. > :46:14.pushing`up costs, and urging David Cameron to get a grip. Felicity,
:46:15. > :46:20.your party did well in Warwickshire by opposing HS2 but why are you not
:46:21. > :46:25.trumpeting this project because it presumably would mean fewer regional
:46:26. > :46:31.flights, it would get freight of the roads and these trains are more
:46:32. > :46:36.energy efficient. At first glance it seems the case but increasingly the
:46:37. > :46:39.evidence is the opposite. This is a vanity project which we cannot
:46:40. > :46:45.afford and this money should be going into improving rail across the
:46:46. > :46:51.board, the rest of the rail system but also alternative ways of
:46:52. > :46:55.travelling. The accountants say it could be worth ?3 billion to the
:46:56. > :46:59.West Midlands. These arguments are disputed. There is no consensus. You
:47:00. > :47:03.can spend that money better insulating every home in the
:47:04. > :47:10.country. If we talk about transport, why did we invest in railway and
:47:11. > :47:16.public transport and buses and let's get people out of cars and onto
:47:17. > :47:20.their feet and bicycles. You have a constituency interest, are you
:47:21. > :47:28.saying jobs and the economy trump the environment arguments? I think
:47:29. > :47:31.that we would be letting down the people of the West Midlands, the
:47:32. > :47:37.whole region and letting down industry if we were to reject
:47:38. > :47:43.high`speed rail. It is so important. We need to we distribute
:47:44. > :47:46.the balance, it's not all about London, it is about the Midlands and
:47:47. > :47:52.the North of England as well. We have to bring prosperity to those
:47:53. > :47:58.areas. Many of the arguments suggest London will benefit at the cost of
:47:59. > :48:06.the regions. There are really so varied views. That is one argument,
:48:07. > :48:11.it needs to be taken into account. Felicity is right that there are
:48:12. > :48:15.many varied arguments. You speak to one person who says one thing and
:48:16. > :48:18.another says something else. What is indisputable is it will bring
:48:19. > :48:25.economic benefits to the region and we need it. Could we perhaps soften
:48:26. > :48:30.the edge of some of the environmental arguments against it,
:48:31. > :48:37.the Warwickshire Conservative MP would like to see the 40 to reduce
:48:38. > :48:45.the environmental damage and strengthen the case. Well, a lots of
:48:46. > :48:51.time and energy has been put into getting the route we have got is
:48:52. > :48:56.environmentally sensitive and I have spoken to HS2 and they have many
:48:57. > :49:00.projects where they are going to minimise any environmental impact.
:49:01. > :49:08.You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. You cannot and though
:49:09. > :49:13.the economic argument is as strong as the environmental, it is claimed
:49:14. > :49:17.it will be beneficial in terms of reducing carbon, there are strong
:49:18. > :49:22.arguments refuting that absolutely, the lands take is massive and in
:49:23. > :49:30.every way it is a disaster. There are better ways of spending the
:49:31. > :49:33.money. Six months to go to the European elections, and the UK
:49:34. > :49:36.Independence Party are confident they can improve on the two Midlands
:49:37. > :49:39.seats they won last time, and reap the rewards of that 'UKIP factor',
:49:40. > :49:42.so`called. With double`digit poll ratings knocking the Liberal
:49:43. > :49:44.Democrats into fourth place, a recent survey by the former Tory
:49:45. > :49:47.deputy chairman Lord Ashcroft suggested they're doing particularly
:49:48. > :49:50.well in the vital, marginal, Parliamentary seats, of which we
:49:51. > :49:55.have so many in our part of the country. Our political reporter
:49:56. > :49:57.Susana Mendonca has been doing her best to separate factor from
:49:58. > :50:08.fiction. Battling for customers. It's what
:50:09. > :50:14.every salesman does and politicians are no different. Especially in a
:50:15. > :50:20.place like this. Yes, Dudley ` or rather Dudley North is where I'm
:50:21. > :50:24.setting out my stall today. This constituency is what's known in the
:50:25. > :50:27.Westminster village as a key marginal ` Labour currently has it `
:50:28. > :50:38.and the Conservatives want to grab hold of it. But there's another
:50:39. > :50:42.party around here that's hoping to take some of the trade. The UK
:50:43. > :50:52.Independence Party in full "salesman" mode. We are picking up
:50:53. > :50:56.votes from across the spectrum. People are prepared to vote for us
:50:57. > :51:05.on the issue other than Europe. Roll up roll up ` is UKIP selling itself
:51:06. > :51:14.to you? I do not know what it is. Who are they? We have the Tories,
:51:15. > :51:22.Labour, UKIP. He will you vote for? I have lost trust in all of the
:51:23. > :51:25.parties. Labour? Are used to vote for Labour but they've lost millions
:51:26. > :51:31.of voters. What is better about UKIP? They will be fairer to the
:51:32. > :51:36.British people. They seem good because they were close the doors
:51:37. > :51:41.for other people, the EU people are getting all the jobs. A straw poll `
:51:42. > :51:44.yes ` but UKIP has sold itself beyond expectations before ` winning
:51:45. > :51:50.two European election seats in the West Midlands last time. This
:51:51. > :51:54.liberal Labour con do not believe in democracy. It has been plagued by
:51:55. > :51:57.infighting though and both those MEP's have since left including this
:51:58. > :52:01.one who's launching his own rival party this week. But why can't UKIP
:52:02. > :52:05.keep hold of its MEPs? I was rejected because I was asking too
:52:06. > :52:09.many questions internally and stop these people want to get on in UKIP
:52:10. > :52:14.they had better not ask certain questions. There are a lot of new
:52:15. > :52:17.faces at UKIP and some have already courted controversy. The one on the
:52:18. > :52:21.left, for his comments on sharia law. And the one on the right left
:52:22. > :52:26.the Tories after being pictured with a controversial choice in cuddly
:52:27. > :52:30.toys. When those photographs were taken out was making a point, I was
:52:31. > :52:35.not even saying they are a good thing, I was accused of all sorts of
:52:36. > :52:40.things and I left and came to UKIP. It is free speech, I can discuss
:52:41. > :52:44.things and I have come across as one of the strongest against racism you
:52:45. > :52:47.could find in politics. The most familiar of UKIP faces has been
:52:48. > :52:51.trying to change his party to professionalise it. But will the new
:52:52. > :52:59.faces be able to sell UKIP not only at a European level but also at
:53:00. > :53:04.parliamentary elections as well? Susana Mendonca down at the market.
:53:05. > :53:09.And one of those potential 'new faces' is Councillor Jill Seymour.
:53:10. > :53:18.She's the chair of Kynnersley Parish Council in Shropshire. But more to
:53:19. > :53:21.the point, she'll be in poll position on UKIP's list of
:53:22. > :53:24.candidates in next year's European elections, which makes her a racing
:53:25. > :53:28.certainty to be one of the seven MEPs representing us here, in the
:53:29. > :53:35.new Parliament. We met in that film the two UKIP MEPs elected last time
:53:36. > :53:40.and they have left the party. They are planning to stand for other
:53:41. > :53:44.parties against you. It makes UKIP look pretty shambolic and
:53:45. > :53:48.dysfunctional. I disagree. These people have decided to go
:53:49. > :53:54.independent, we wish them well but the party is moving forward. Is
:53:55. > :54:03.there a decent prospects you might defect somewhere else? Absolutely
:54:04. > :54:09.not. Put it together, we heard about the broadening the message away from
:54:10. > :54:14.the defining theme of Europe but doesn't it look like a pick and mix
:54:15. > :54:21.of populist issues, disconnected, anti`HS2 when it suits you,
:54:22. > :54:27.programme schools when it suits you. Patrick, I believe the party is for
:54:28. > :54:32.common sense and peoples voice. It is what the public want. Doesn't
:54:33. > :54:36.common sense and plight my point, all things to all people,
:54:37. > :54:42.ill`defined? I disagree. UKIP has moved forward, we have cross
:54:43. > :54:47.sections of policies. Yes, the EU is a major one, but there are major
:54:48. > :54:54.local policies, we believe in people having a voice. As the months ticked
:54:55. > :54:57.down, there will be greater scrutiny and the indications are about the
:54:58. > :55:03.party conference and the Bill Etheridge incident that your party
:55:04. > :55:08.doesn't stand up well to scrutiny. I think that is the media that like to
:55:09. > :55:13.pick on individuals. They are not media inventions. Bill focuses on
:55:14. > :55:19.local issues and he is very good at that. You are basically a repository
:55:20. > :55:25.of protest, you are not just about Europe, you represent a disaffection
:55:26. > :55:33.from the other big parties. Again, I disagree because when people feel
:55:34. > :55:37.the politicians are not listening and they do not care about their
:55:38. > :55:42.issues, UKIP have been able to pick a cross`section of those people that
:55:43. > :55:47.feel disenchanted. And that is why UKIP is doing so well. The evidence
:55:48. > :55:53.is that UKIP is doing very well because of the disaffection, people
:55:54. > :55:58.do not trust the larger parties. It is easy to stand on the sidelines
:55:59. > :56:03.and carp about all manner of different things. The Liberal
:56:04. > :56:08.Democrats were a party of protest, we are now in government and I hope
:56:09. > :56:12.we have demonstrated that we are responsible party, we have good
:56:13. > :56:20.economic credentials, what would happen if UKIP were to to win
:56:21. > :56:25.parliamentary seats... Which they are confident of doing. They will
:56:26. > :56:29.then have to stand up to proper scrutiny and then we will see just
:56:30. > :56:36.what they are made of. The other point is protest votes, both UKIP
:56:37. > :56:42.and the Greens have benefited, it is a crowded part of the battlefield. I
:56:43. > :56:47.am not entirely sure about the momentum. If you look at this area,
:56:48. > :56:55.the Greens have 18 councillors on major councils, UKIP have lost their
:56:56. > :57:00.two any peas. I do not understand the business. This business of
:57:01. > :57:08.giving a voice and listening and openness, the two things I challenge
:57:09. > :57:12.UKIP on our climate scepticism which is astonishing and almost criminal
:57:13. > :57:18.in this day and age and the other one is the bigotry of refusing gay
:57:19. > :57:29.people an opportunity to marry. I do not understand those views. On
:57:30. > :57:32.having councillors, UKIP has 147 councillors and who knows? We have a
:57:33. > :57:49.lot of councillors which we have tripled or quadrupled. But the vote
:57:50. > :57:54.on HS2, the majority want HS2. Go to the counties where HS2 is going
:57:55. > :57:57.through their land and the government will have a big issue
:57:58. > :58:03.because the public are not behind it. It is a white elephant. We are
:58:04. > :58:09.not against high but invading the land. We heard that Nigel Farage
:58:10. > :58:15.surrounded himself with yes people and the perception is it is a
:58:16. > :58:19.one`man band. I disagree with watch were saying. I do not agree with
:58:20. > :58:23.everything the party always does but I believe totally in the principle
:58:24. > :58:30.of the party. We work together as a team. For us to get to where we are
:58:31. > :58:35.going, we stand together. And I you are climate change denier? I am
:58:36. > :58:41.totally against wind farms. They are blotting the land. It is over
:58:42. > :58:47.subsidised, we have green taxes which we are against. Let's look at
:58:48. > :58:56.what people are suffering. Look what people will suffer in the future!
:58:57. > :59:00.Thank you to you for being here. Time now for our regular round`up of
:59:01. > :59:03.the political week in the Midlands in 60 seconds, brought to us today
:59:04. > :59:07.by our Coventry and Warwickshire Political Reporter, Sian Grzeszczyk.
:59:08. > :59:12.Is burning rubbish the answer to cutting energy bills? Scientists at
:59:13. > :59:19.Aston University say they can turn almost any waste into fuel to
:59:20. > :59:23.generate electricity. Politicians take note! Network Rail opened a new
:59:24. > :59:26.depot on the site of the old Peugeot Factory near Coventry. The parts and
:59:27. > :59:34.distribution centre will create a hundred new jobs. Ever wanted to set
:59:35. > :59:36.your own council budget? Warwickshire County Council is
:59:37. > :59:42.letting local taxpayers have a go online. They need to save ?92
:59:43. > :59:49.million but it's not as easy as it looks. We were not able to balance
:59:50. > :59:53.the books. Coventry City FC want new talks with the council about moving
:59:54. > :59:56.back to the Ricoh Arena. They're currently playing their home games
:59:57. > :00:01.in Northampton but want to buy the Ricoh. And the government has lost a
:00:02. > :00:05.Supreme Court appeal over it's "back to work" scheme. Birmingham graduate
:00:06. > :00:11.Cait Reilly objected to being told she had to work without pay at
:00:12. > :00:13.Poundland. Although the Supreme Court did
:00:14. > :00:18.reject the argument that the scheme was "forced labour". But this is
:00:19. > :00:26.still a set`back for the government's plans. There were
:00:27. > :00:31.flaws. The government has already put forward retrospective
:00:32. > :00:36.legislation to remedy the floors. There is no question that the idea
:00:37. > :00:43.of ensuring that people do work and do not have a life of idleness while
:00:44. > :00:50.taxpayers are funding their benefits is appropriate. You are a teacher
:00:51. > :00:53.Felicity. There is a lot of sympathy for the case but there is a certain
:00:54. > :01:02.amount of benefit in experiencing the routine of work. I would not
:01:03. > :01:06.argue with that. It seemed a complete waste of her skills in that
:01:07. > :01:12.instance. She could have been doing other things and it's a complete
:01:13. > :01:17.myth that the majority of people on benefits or accepting welfare are
:01:18. > :01:21.lazy layabouts. It is nonsense. It is appalling the way this myth is
:01:22. > :01:26.perpetuated. The majority want to work and want the opportunity to
:01:27. > :01:31.develop their skills. I wish we could pursue this but this is where
:01:32. > :01:38.we have to draw the line. Thank you very much. And after a week in which
:01:39. > :01:42.the West Midlands Police Commissioner proposed to use ?60
:01:43. > :01:47.million of the reserve funds to recruit over 500 new officers, next
:01:48. > :01:50.Sunday as we near the first anniversary of the PCC elections, we
:01:51. > :01:53.examine what impact they have made. And we'll be joined here by the
:01:54. > :01:57.policy research organisation who helped to devise this new set`up in
:01:58. > :02:00.the first place. Now they want the commissioners to have even more
:02:01. > :02:01.powers, over the prisons, and the courts. This though
:02:02. > :02:17.Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's
:02:18. > :02:30.relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the
:02:31. > :02:33.Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka
:02:34. > :02:36.Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did
:02:37. > :02:40.earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.
:02:41. > :02:44.Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:02:45. > :02:48.office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the
:02:49. > :02:53.Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative
:02:54. > :02:57.mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he
:02:58. > :03:03.should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey
:03:04. > :03:09.denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial
:03:10. > :03:14.dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side
:03:15. > :03:20.is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send
:03:21. > :03:23.its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened
:03:24. > :03:28.in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families
:03:29. > :03:32.out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset
:03:33. > :03:39.particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of
:03:40. > :03:43.things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own
:03:44. > :03:48.report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -
:03:49. > :03:56.forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was
:03:57. > :04:09.being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the
:04:10. > :04:14.report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is
:04:15. > :04:16.something that the police are looking into so that is not
:04:17. > :04:28.something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We
:04:29. > :04:32.learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained
:04:33. > :04:37.to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour
:04:38. > :04:47.Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party
:04:48. > :04:50.and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are
:04:51. > :04:55.looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like
:04:56. > :04:58.the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil
:04:59. > :05:04.Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed
:05:05. > :05:10.Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not
:05:11. > :05:15.worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?
:05:16. > :05:19.Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we
:05:20. > :05:26.have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many
:05:27. > :05:31.respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further
:05:32. > :05:36.ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship
:05:37. > :05:41.with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of
:05:42. > :05:46.the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to
:05:47. > :05:50.vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but
:05:51. > :05:55.they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and
:05:56. > :06:00.that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do
:06:01. > :06:04.things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour
:06:05. > :06:08.Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in
:06:09. > :06:13.which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us
:06:14. > :06:20.in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3
:06:21. > :06:29.million working people who ensure our public services function. At
:06:30. > :06:34.Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk
:06:35. > :06:43.Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd
:06:44. > :06:50.just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to
:06:51. > :06:53.give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be
:06:54. > :06:58.confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to
:06:59. > :07:05.take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our
:07:06. > :07:12.Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed
:07:13. > :07:17.Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in
:07:18. > :07:21.special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite
:07:22. > :07:29.union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean
:07:30. > :07:37.according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the
:07:38. > :07:41.meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer
:07:42. > :07:49.free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your
:07:50. > :07:57.turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the
:07:58. > :08:02.allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the
:08:03. > :08:07.Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their
:08:08. > :08:15.rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at
:08:16. > :08:21.Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of
:08:22. > :08:27.their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to
:08:28. > :08:32.our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will
:08:33. > :08:37.find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets
:08:38. > :08:44.tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working
:08:45. > :08:48.in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port
:08:49. > :08:53.and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets
:08:54. > :08:59.overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from
:09:00. > :09:04.unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite
:09:05. > :09:09.know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears
:09:10. > :09:14.used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private
:09:15. > :09:20.sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was
:09:21. > :09:24.born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of
:09:25. > :09:31.their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they
:09:32. > :09:39.can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But
:09:40. > :09:43.there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is
:09:44. > :09:49.right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for
:09:50. > :09:55.their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their
:09:56. > :09:59.aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their
:10:00. > :10:06.workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the
:10:07. > :10:11.protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has
:10:12. > :10:18.said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.
:10:19. > :10:23.He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the
:10:24. > :10:27.radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that
:10:28. > :10:32.was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend
:10:33. > :10:38.to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like
:10:39. > :10:45.land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing
:10:46. > :10:49.the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.
:10:50. > :10:55.million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The
:10:56. > :11:00.business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances
:11:01. > :11:06.back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being
:11:07. > :11:11.used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater
:11:12. > :11:19.variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro
:11:20. > :11:25.enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a
:11:26. > :11:30.living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but
:11:31. > :11:35.there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business
:11:36. > :11:42.because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is
:11:43. > :11:48.good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are
:11:49. > :11:53.not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax
:11:54. > :12:01.credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know
:12:02. > :12:12.after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living
:12:13. > :12:15.wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and
:12:16. > :12:24.we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party
:12:25. > :12:38.pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a
:12:39. > :12:44.living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.
:12:45. > :12:50.What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle
:12:51. > :12:57.as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one
:12:58. > :13:02.of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this
:13:03. > :13:06.soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working
:13:07. > :13:17.together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.
:13:18. > :13:25.That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be
:13:26. > :13:30.here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at
:13:31. > :13:59.the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:00. > :14:04.Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.
:14:05. > :14:12.To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.
:14:13. > :14:15.There were the objects that were making the Earth.
:14:16. > :14:17.We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.
:14:18. > :14:20.Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?
:14:21. > :14:25.This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.