:00:36. > :00:41.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the
:00:45. > :00:47.Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant
:00:48. > :00:50.Shapps. Five years on from the financial
:00:51. > :00:53.crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't
:00:54. > :00:58.the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the
:00:59. > :01:02.City's new financial watchdog. And he used to have a windmill on
:01:03. > :01:06.his roof and talked about giving hugs to hoodies and huskies. These
:01:07. > :01:08.days, not so much. Has the plan to make
:01:09. > :01:14.And in the Midlands: Will easier immigration rules in the New Year
:01:15. > :01:17.trigger a huge surge in Bulgarian and Romanian migrants? Or is this
:01:18. > :01:19.just so much warned that benefit falls will be to
:01:20. > :01:27.homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence?
:01:28. > :01:31.And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows
:01:32. > :01:35.can only dream of. Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They'll
:01:36. > :01:39.be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes,
:01:40. > :01:42.they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from
:01:43. > :01:46.Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities
:01:47. > :01:50.in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the
:01:51. > :02:00.enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some
:02:01. > :02:04.funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive
:02:05. > :02:07.deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama
:02:08. > :02:15.had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive
:02:16. > :02:19.diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our
:02:20. > :02:24.partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,
:02:25. > :02:30.as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a
:02:31. > :02:35.new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we
:02:36. > :02:42.can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it
:02:43. > :02:46.cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White
:02:47. > :02:52.House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a
:02:53. > :02:57.full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and
:02:58. > :03:01.end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good. The
:03:02. > :03:07.Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the
:03:08. > :03:14.Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq is 40%, so they need a stronger
:03:15. > :03:18.currency. -- information in Iran. France has played a blinder. It was
:03:19. > :03:22.there intransigence that led to this. Otherwise, I think the West
:03:23. > :03:28.would have led to a much softer deal. The question now becomes
:03:29. > :03:33.implementation. Here, everything hinges on two questions. First, who
:03:34. > :03:38.is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the Iranians Gorbachev, a serious
:03:39. > :03:45.reformer, or he's here much more tactical and cynical figure? Or,
:03:46. > :03:48.within Iran, how powerful is he? There are military men and
:03:49. > :03:55.intelligence officials within Iran who may stymie the process. The
:03:56. > :03:59.Western media concentrate on the fact that Mr Netanyahu and the
:04:00. > :04:04.Israelis are not happy about this. They don't often mention that the
:04:05. > :04:10.Arab Gulf states are also very apprehensive about this deal. I read
:04:11. > :04:20.this morning that the enemies of Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king.
:04:21. > :04:26.-- the MAs row. That is the key thing to watch in the next couple of
:04:27. > :04:30.weeks. There was a response from Saudi Arabia, but it came from the
:04:31. > :04:35.Prime Minister of Israel, who said this was a historic mistake. The
:04:36. > :04:39.United States said there would be no enrichment of uranium to weapons
:04:40. > :04:42.grade. In the last few minutes, the Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted
:04:43. > :04:52.to say that there is an inalienable right -- right to enrich. The key
:04:53. > :04:57.thing is the most important thing that President Obama said in his
:04:58. > :05:01.inaugural speech. He reached out to Iran. It failed under President
:05:02. > :05:08.McKenna jab. Under President Rouhani, there seems to be progress.
:05:09. > :05:12.There is potentially now what he talked about in that first inaugural
:05:13. > :05:18.address potentially coming through. In the end, the key issue - and we
:05:19. > :05:23.don't know the answer - is the supreme leader, not the president.
:05:24. > :05:27.Will the supreme leader agreed to Iran giving up its ability to create
:05:28. > :05:33.nuclear weapons? This is the huge ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei
:05:34. > :05:39.authorise the position that President Rouhani took to Geneva.
:05:40. > :05:44.That doesn't mean he will sign off on every bit of implementation over
:05:45. > :05:50.the next six months. Even when President Ahmadinejad was president,
:05:51. > :05:55.he wasn't really President. We in the West have to resort to a kind of
:05:56. > :06:06.Iranians version of the study of the Kremlin, to work out what is going
:06:07. > :06:13.on. And the problem the president faces is that if there is any
:06:14. > :06:16.sign... He can unlock these funds by executive order at the moment, but
:06:17. > :06:21.if he needs any more, he has to go to Congress. Both the Democrat and
:06:22. > :06:29.the Republican side have huge scepticism about this. And he has
:06:30. > :06:33.very low credibility now. There's already been angry noises coming
:06:34. > :06:37.from quite a lot of senators. It was quite strange to see that photo of
:06:38. > :06:41.John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as if they had survived a ship great
:06:42. > :06:52.together. John Kerry is clearly feeling very happy. We will keep an
:06:53. > :06:54.eye on this. It is a fascinating development.
:06:55. > :06:56.More lurid details about the personal life of the Co-op Bank's
:06:57. > :07:01.disgraced former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers. The links
:07:02. > :07:04.between Labour, the bank and the wider Co-op movement have caused big
:07:05. > :07:09.problems for Ed Miliband this week, and the Conservatives have been
:07:10. > :07:13.revelling in it. But do the Tory allegations - Ed Miliband calls them
:07:14. > :07:23."smears" - stack up? Party Chairman Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield.
:07:24. > :07:32.Welcome to the programme. When it comes to the Co-op, what are you
:07:33. > :07:36.accusing Labour of knowing and when? I think the simple thing to say here
:07:37. > :07:41.is that the Co-op is an important bank. They have obviously got into
:07:42. > :07:45.difficulty with Reverend flowers, and our primary concern is making
:07:46. > :07:49.sure that that is properly investigated, and that we understand
:07:50. > :07:52.what happened at the bank and how somebody like Paul Flowers could
:07:53. > :07:57.have ended up thing appointed chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband
:07:58. > :08:04.on Tuesday and asked him what he knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed
:08:05. > :08:08.Miliband. But by Prime Minister's Questions on Wednesday, David
:08:09. > :08:15.Cameron claims that you knew that Labour knew about his past all
:08:16. > :08:22.along. What is the evidence for that? We found out by Wednesday that
:08:23. > :08:27.he had been a Labour councillor, Reverend Flowers, and had been made
:08:28. > :08:30.to stand down. Certainly, Labour knew about that, but somehow didn't
:08:31. > :08:37.seem to think that that made him less appropriate to be the chairman
:08:38. > :08:43.of the Co-op bank. There was no evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr
:08:44. > :08:48.Balls knew about that. I ask you again, what are you accusing the
:08:49. > :08:58.Labour leadership of knowing? We know now that he stood down for very
:08:59. > :09:01.inappropriate images on his computer, apparently. You are
:09:02. > :09:06.telling me that they didn't know. I am not sure that is clear at all. I
:09:07. > :09:10.have heard conflicting reports. There is a much bigger argument
:09:11. > :09:15.about what they knew and when. There was a much bigger issue here. This
:09:16. > :09:20.morning, Ed Miliband has said that they don't have to answer these
:09:21. > :09:23.questions and that these smears. This is ludicrous. These are
:09:24. > :09:27.important questions about an important bank, how it ended up
:09:28. > :09:33.getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia
:09:34. > :09:41.deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how
:09:42. > :09:44.the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the
:09:45. > :09:48.questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are
:09:49. > :09:55.accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the
:09:56. > :10:04.drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was
:10:05. > :10:08.known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew
:10:09. > :10:12.about these very difficult circumstances in which he resigned
:10:13. > :10:18.as a councillor. I think that the Labour Party knew about it. We knew
:10:19. > :10:21.that Bradford did, but not London. Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew
:10:22. > :10:26.about the inappropriate material on the Reverend's laptop? It is
:10:27. > :10:34.certainly the case that Labour knew about it. But did Mr Miliband know
:10:35. > :10:41.about it, and his predilection for rent boys? He will need to answer
:10:42. > :10:45.those questions. It is quite proper to ask those questions. Surely,
:10:46. > :10:49.asking a perfectly legitimate set of questions, not just about that but
:10:50. > :10:54.about how we have ended up in a situation where this bank has made
:10:55. > :10:59.loans to Labour for millions of pounds, that bank and the Unite
:11:00. > :11:06.bank, who is connected to it. And how they made a ?50,000 donation to
:11:07. > :11:11.Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that was nothing to do with Reverend
:11:12. > :11:17.Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers said that he personally signed that
:11:18. > :11:21.off. Lots of questions to answer. David Cameron has already answered
:11:22. > :11:27.them on Wednesday. He said that you now know that Labour knew about his
:11:28. > :11:30.past all along. You have not been able to present evidence that
:11:31. > :11:36.involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in that. So until you get that, surely
:11:37. > :11:40.you should apologise? Hang on. He said that Labour knew about this,
:11:41. > :11:46.and they did, because he stood down as a councillor. If Ed Miliband
:11:47. > :11:51.didn't know about that, then why not? This was quite a serious thing
:11:52. > :11:55.that happened. The wider point is about why it is that when you ask
:11:56. > :11:58.perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,
:11:59. > :12:09.and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is
:12:10. > :12:12.all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with
:12:13. > :12:16.the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare
:12:17. > :12:25.changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider
:12:26. > :12:33.picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over
:12:34. > :12:38.the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept
:12:39. > :12:45.that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions
:12:46. > :12:50.for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls was
:12:51. > :12:56.very pleased... But you supported that decision. There was a later
:12:57. > :13:01.deal, potentially, for the Co-op to buy those Lloyds branches. There was
:13:02. > :13:08.a proper process and it didn't go through just recently. If there had
:13:09. > :13:15.been a proper process back in 2009, would the Britannia deal have gone
:13:16. > :13:20.through? First, you accept that the Tories were in favour of the
:13:21. > :13:24.Britannia take over. Then your Chancellor Osborne went out of his
:13:25. > :13:27.way to facilitate the purchase of the Lloyds branches, even though you
:13:28. > :13:35.had no idea that the Co-op had the management expertise to become a
:13:36. > :13:41.super medium. Correct? The difference is that that deal didn't
:13:42. > :13:48.go through. There was a proper process that took place. Let's look
:13:49. > :13:54.at the process. There was long indications as far back as January
:13:55. > :13:58.2012 that the Co-op, as a direct result of the Britannia take over
:13:59. > :14:02.which you will party supported, was unfit to acquire the Lloyds
:14:03. > :14:09.branches. By January 2012, the Chancellor and the Treasury ignored
:14:10. > :14:13.the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there was political pressure for the
:14:14. > :14:17.Britannia to be brought together. Based on the information available,
:14:18. > :14:20.this was supported, but that process ended up with a very, very
:14:21. > :14:26.problematic takeover of the Britannia. Wind forward to this
:14:27. > :14:30.year, and when the same types of issues were being looked at for the
:14:31. > :14:34.purchase of the Lloyds deal, the proper process was followed, this
:14:35. > :14:38.time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is
:14:39. > :14:42.important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it
:14:43. > :14:52.transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the
:14:53. > :14:57.Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition
:14:58. > :15:00.of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not
:15:01. > :15:04.have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,
:15:05. > :15:10.but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to
:15:11. > :15:15.Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on
:15:16. > :15:18.earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of
:15:19. > :15:23.Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the
:15:24. > :15:29.mutuals to be given a special ruling. The idea was to make sure
:15:30. > :15:34.that every bank in Britain could have a better deal, particularly the
:15:35. > :15:38.mutuals, as you say. That is a proper thing for the Chancellor to
:15:39. > :15:42.be doing. We could go round in circles here, but in the end, there
:15:43. > :15:46.was not a takeover of the Lloyds branches, that is because we
:15:47. > :15:50.followed a proper process. Had that same rigorous process been followed
:15:51. > :15:55.in 2009, the legitimate question to ask is whether the Co-op would have
:15:56. > :15:59.been -- would have taken over the Britannia. That is a proper question
:16:00. > :16:03.to ask. It is no good to have the leader of the opposition say, as
:16:04. > :16:05.soon as you ask any of these questions about anything where there
:16:06. > :16:11.is a problem for them, they come back with, oh, this is all smears.
:16:12. > :16:14.There are questions to ask about what the Labour government did, the
:16:15. > :16:19.debt and the deficit they left the country with, the way they stopped
:16:20. > :16:24.work from paying in this country. The big question your government has
:16:25. > :16:27.two answer is, why, by July 2012, when it was clear there was a black
:16:28. > :16:33.hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, your government re-confirmed the
:16:34. > :16:38.Co-op as the preferred bidder for Lloyds - why would you do that?
:16:39. > :16:42.Well, look, the good thing is, we can discuss this until the cows come
:16:43. > :16:45.home, but there is going to be a proper, full investigation, so we
:16:46. > :16:51.will find out what happened, all the way back. So, we will be able to get
:16:52. > :16:55.to the bottom of all of this. Grant Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds
:16:56. > :17:00.deal did not go ahead was, despite the Treasury cheerleading, when
:17:01. > :17:03.Lloyds began its due diligence, it found that there was indeed a huge
:17:04. > :17:08.black hole in the balance sheet and that the Co-op was not fit to take
:17:09. > :17:13.over its branches. That wasn't you, it wasn't the Government, it was not
:17:14. > :17:19.the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal
:17:20. > :17:24.to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which
:17:25. > :17:28.did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper
:17:29. > :17:33.process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the
:17:34. > :17:38.previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be
:17:39. > :17:41.that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure
:17:42. > :17:50.perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so
:17:51. > :17:55.disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to
:17:56. > :17:58.go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent
:17:59. > :18:03.review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,
:18:04. > :18:09.independent review, the response you get to these serious questions. The
:18:10. > :18:14.response is, oh, this is a smear. It is crazy. We are trying to answer
:18:15. > :18:24.the big questions for this country. We have done all of that, and we are
:18:25. > :18:27.out of time. The Reverend Flowers' chairmanship of the Co-op bank was
:18:28. > :18:32.approved by the regulator at the time, which no longer exists. It was
:18:33. > :18:36.swept away by the coalition government in a supposed revolution
:18:37. > :18:39.in regulation. But will its replacement, the Financial Conduct
:18:40. > :18:49.Authority, be different? Adam has been to find out. Come with me for a
:18:50. > :18:53.spin around the Square mile to find out how we regulate our financial
:18:54. > :18:58.sector, which is almost five times bigger than the country's entire
:18:59. > :19:03.annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,
:19:04. > :19:09.who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the
:19:10. > :19:12.financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to
:19:13. > :19:16.supervise the banks on a day-to-day basis. The Bank of England was
:19:17. > :19:20.supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial
:19:21. > :19:24.system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these
:19:25. > :19:30.things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or
:19:31. > :19:34.main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as
:19:35. > :19:38.a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new
:19:39. > :19:47.system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays
:19:48. > :19:51.here, with the Bank of England, and its new Prudential Regulation
:19:52. > :19:54.Authority. And the Financial Services Authority has been replaced
:19:55. > :20:01.with the new Financial Conduct Authority. Can we go to the
:20:02. > :20:06.financial conduct authority, please? Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is
:20:07. > :20:09.all about whether the people in financial services are playing by
:20:10. > :20:14.the rules, in particular, how they treat their customers. This place
:20:15. > :20:18.has got new powers, like the ability to ban products it does not like, a
:20:19. > :20:22.new mandate to promote competition in the market, the concept being,
:20:23. > :20:26.more competition means a better market, plus the idea that a new
:20:27. > :20:34.organisation rings a whole new culture. Although these are the old
:20:35. > :20:39.offices of the FSA, so maybe not quite so new after all. It has also
:20:40. > :20:42.inherited the case of the Co-op bank and its disgraced former chairman
:20:43. > :20:46.the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA will be part of the investigation
:20:47. > :20:51.into what happened, which will probably involve looking at its own
:20:52. > :20:54.conduct. One member of the Parliamentary commission into
:20:55. > :21:00.banking wonders whether the new regulator, and its new boss, are up
:21:01. > :21:05.to it. I have always said, it is not the architecture which is the issue,
:21:06. > :21:09.it is the powers that the regulator has, and today, it does not seem to
:21:10. > :21:15.me as if there is any increase in that. And with the unfolding scandal
:21:16. > :21:22.at the Co-op, it feels like the new architecture for regulating the City
:21:23. > :21:24.is now facing its first big test. And the chief executive of the
:21:25. > :21:30.Financial Conduct Authority, the SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now.
:21:31. > :21:34.Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The failure of bank regulation was one
:21:35. > :21:40.of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in
:21:41. > :21:45.2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why
:21:46. > :21:50.have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes
:21:51. > :21:54.since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,
:21:55. > :21:58.we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank
:21:59. > :22:02.and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul
:22:03. > :22:04.Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was
:22:05. > :22:10.appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going
:22:11. > :22:16.from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he
:22:17. > :22:20.only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But
:22:21. > :22:25.the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA
:22:26. > :22:29.operated. He was challenged, we did challenge him, and we said, you do
:22:30. > :22:33.not have the right experience, but at the time, we would not have
:22:34. > :22:36.opposed the appointment. What we needed was additional representation
:22:37. > :22:41.of the board of people who did have banking experience. You can say that
:22:42. > :22:45.that was then and this is now, but up until April of this year, it was
:22:46. > :22:49.still the plan for the Co-op, under Mr Flowers, and despite being
:22:50. > :22:55.seriously wounded by the Britannia takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds
:22:56. > :22:59.branches. That was the Co-op's plan. They needed to pass our test
:23:00. > :23:02.as to whether we thought they were fit to do that, and frankly, they
:23:03. > :23:07.never passed that test. It was not the regulator that stopped them? It
:23:08. > :23:11.was. We were constantly pushing back, saying, you have not got the
:23:12. > :23:14.capital, you have no got the systems, and ultimately, they
:23:15. > :23:20.withdrew, when they could not answer our questions. You were asking the
:23:21. > :23:25.right questions, I accept that, but all of the time, the politicians on
:23:26. > :23:28.all sides, they were pushing for it to happen, and I cannot find
:23:29. > :23:35.anywhere where the regulator said, look, this is just not going to
:23:36. > :23:38.happen. I cannot comment on what the politicians were doing, but I
:23:39. > :23:41.continue what we were doing, which was constantly asking the Co-op,
:23:42. > :23:45.have you got the systems in place, have you got the people, have you
:23:46. > :23:49.got the capital? And they didn't. But it only came to a head when
:23:50. > :23:53.Lloyds started its own due diligence on the bank, and they discovered
:23:54. > :23:58.that it was impossible for them to take over the branches, it was not
:23:59. > :24:03.the regulator... In fairness, what we do is ask the questions, can you
:24:04. > :24:06.do this deal? And we kept pushing back, and we never frankly got
:24:07. > :24:14.delivered a business plan which we were happy to approve. Is the SCA
:24:15. > :24:25.going to launch its own inquiry into what happened? -- the FCA. The
:24:26. > :24:29.Chancellor has announced what will be a very broad inquiry. There are a
:24:30. > :24:34.number of specifics which we will be able to look at, relating to events
:24:35. > :24:38.over the last five years. Could there be a police investigation? I
:24:39. > :24:43.think the police have already announced an investigation. I am
:24:44. > :24:47.talking about into the handling of the bank. It depends. There might
:24:48. > :24:56.be, if there is grim low activity, which we do not know yet. You worked
:24:57. > :25:02.at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. Some of those people who were signed
:25:03. > :25:09.off on the speedy promotion of Mr Flowers, are they now working
:25:10. > :25:12.there? Yes, we have some. I came to join the Financial Services
:25:13. > :25:17.Authority, to lead it into the creation of the new body, the SCA.
:25:18. > :25:28.We had people who were challenging and they did the job. There was not
:25:29. > :25:31.a requirement to approve the role as chairman. There was not even a
:25:32. > :25:37.requirement to interview at that stage. What we did do was to require
:25:38. > :25:49.that he was interviewed, and that the Co-op should get additional
:25:50. > :25:53.experience. One of the people from the old organisation, who signed up
:25:54. > :25:56.on the promotion of Mr Flowers to become chairman is now a
:25:57. > :26:04.nonexecutive director of the Co-op, so how does that work? Welcome he
:26:05. > :26:07.was a senior adviser to our organisation, one of the people who
:26:08. > :26:11.made the challenges, and who said, you need more experience on your
:26:12. > :26:15.board. Subsequently he then went and joined the board. Surely that should
:26:16. > :26:20.not be allowed, the regulator and the regulated should not be like
:26:21. > :26:25.that. Well clearly, you need protection, but we have got to get
:26:26. > :26:29.good people in, and frankly, we want the industry to have good people in
:26:30. > :26:33.the industry, so there will be some movement between the regulator and
:26:34. > :26:37.industry. We all wonder whether you have the power or even the
:26:38. > :26:40.confidence to stand up if you look at all of the really bad bank
:26:41. > :26:45.decisions recently, politicians were behind them. It was Gordon Brown who
:26:46. > :26:50.pushed the disastrous merger of Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond
:26:51. > :26:55.who egged on RBS to buy the world. All three main parties wanted the
:26:56. > :26:58.Co-op to buy Britannia, even though they did not know the debt it would
:26:59. > :27:02.inherit, and all three wanted the Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches -
:27:03. > :27:08.how do you as a regulator stand up to that little concert party? Well,
:27:09. > :27:12.that political pressure exists, our job at the end of the day is to do a
:27:13. > :27:16.relatively technical job and say, does it stack up? And it didn't, and
:27:17. > :27:19.we made that point time and time again to the Co-op board. They did
:27:20. > :27:24.not have a business case that we could approve. The bodies on left
:27:25. > :27:31.and right -- the politicians on left and right gave the Co-op special
:27:32. > :27:38.support. They may have done, but that was not you have made a warning
:27:39. > :27:42.about these payday lenders, but I think what most people would like to
:27:43. > :27:46.see is a limit put on the interest they can charge over a period of
:27:47. > :27:51.time - will you do that? We have got a whole set of powers for payday
:27:52. > :27:55.lenders. We will bring in some changes from April next year, and we
:27:56. > :27:58.will bring in further changes as we see necessary. Will you put a limit
:27:59. > :28:04.on the interest they can charge? That is something we can study. You
:28:05. > :28:08.do not sound too keen on it? Well, there are a lot of changes we need
:28:09. > :28:12.to make. One change is limiting rollovers, limiting the use of
:28:13. > :28:16.continuous payment authorities. Simply jumping to one trigger would
:28:17. > :28:21.be a mistake. Finally, an issue which I think is becoming a growing
:28:22. > :28:26.concern, because the Government is thinking of subsidising them, 95%
:28:27. > :28:30.mortgages are back - should we not be worried about that? I think we
:28:31. > :28:35.should if the market has the same experiences that we had back in 2007
:28:36. > :28:40.- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our
:28:41. > :28:44.mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put
:28:45. > :28:55.affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You
:28:56. > :28:56.have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have
:28:57. > :29:06.many challenges. It was once called the battle of the
:29:07. > :29:07.mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style
:29:08. > :29:11.modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction
:29:12. > :29:18.and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on
:29:19. > :29:23.changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he
:29:24. > :29:27.promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need
:29:28. > :29:33.more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He
:29:34. > :29:38.told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the
:29:39. > :29:42.day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching
:29:43. > :29:47.trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects
:29:48. > :29:52.of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said
:29:53. > :29:56.that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn't
:29:57. > :30:05.done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms
:30:06. > :30:09.into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare
:30:10. > :30:13.reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants
:30:14. > :30:22.talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says
:30:23. > :30:28.that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green
:30:29. > :30:31.crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the
:30:32. > :30:34.Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has
:30:35. > :30:40.pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"".
:30:41. > :30:45.Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still
:30:46. > :30:49.doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David
:30:50. > :30:55.Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone.
:30:56. > :30:59.Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David
:31:00. > :31:04.Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect,
:31:05. > :31:07.that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory
:31:08. > :31:14.modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right.
:31:15. > :31:19.Modernisation is about reaching out to the voters, and the work to do
:31:20. > :31:24.that is now more relevant than ever. We got the biggest swing since 1931,
:31:25. > :31:29.and the thing is we need to do more to reach out to voters in the North.
:31:30. > :31:38.We need to reach out to non-white voters, and show that the concerns
:31:39. > :31:42.of modern Britain and the concerns of ordinary people is something that
:31:43. > :31:46.we share. And what way will racking up electricity bills with green
:31:47. > :31:52.levies get you more votes in the North of England? We have to look at
:31:53. > :31:55.ways to reduce energy bills. The renewable energy directive doesn't
:31:56. > :32:02.do anything to help cut our emissions, but does decrease energy
:32:03. > :32:05.bills by ?45 a year. We should renegotiate that. That is a part of
:32:06. > :32:11.modernisation and doing what ordinarily people want. And old
:32:12. > :32:16.dinosaurs like you are just holding this modernisation process back? I
:32:17. > :32:22.am very appreciative of covering on this programme. The Tory party has
:32:23. > :32:26.been reforming itself for more than 150 years. This idea of modern eyes
:32:27. > :32:34.a is just some invention. We are changing all the time. I'm nice and
:32:35. > :32:38.cuddly! So you are happy that the party made gay marriage almost a
:32:39. > :32:47.kind of symbol of its modernisation? Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free
:32:48. > :32:51.vote. David Cameron was recorded as a rebel there because more Tories
:32:52. > :32:55.voted against his position than ever before. It was said that this was a
:32:56. > :32:59.split between the old and young, but it actually was a split between
:33:00. > :33:03.those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a
:33:04. > :33:11.misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I
:33:12. > :33:16.think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my
:33:17. > :33:22.part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 80 and
:33:23. > :33:26.one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight
:33:27. > :33:32.Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He
:33:33. > :33:37.was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found
:33:38. > :33:47.three young people? Hang on a minute. You can't get away with
:33:48. > :33:52.that. Three in one batch. Does modernisation exist? Modernisation
:33:53. > :33:55.is about watering our appeal and sharing our values are relevant to
:33:56. > :33:59.voters who haven't really thought about voting for us for decades now.
:34:00. > :34:04.Modernisation is about more than windmills and stuff, it is about
:34:05. > :34:11.boosting the life chances of the poorest, it is about putting better
:34:12. > :34:16.schools in poorer areas. It is also saying that modernisation and the
:34:17. > :34:21.Tory party... When has the Tory party been against making poorer
:34:22. > :34:25.people better off? Or against better schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher
:34:26. > :34:28.was a moderniser when she won all those elections? The problem we have
:34:29. > :34:34.at the moment is that UKIP has grown-up. If we could get all of
:34:35. > :34:39.those people who vote UKIP to vote for us, we would get 47% of the
:34:40. > :34:44.vote. We don't need to worry about voters on the left. We need to worry
:34:45. > :34:52.about the voters in the north, those people who haven't voted for us for
:34:53. > :34:58.decades. Having an EU Referendum Bill is going to get people to
:34:59. > :35:02.vote. We have to reach out to voters, but not by some sort of
:35:03. > :35:07.London based in need. You have to broaden your base. I agree with you
:35:08. > :35:11.on that. We have to broaden our appeal, but this back to the future
:35:12. > :35:16.concept is not going to work. We need something that generally
:35:17. > :35:19.appeals to low and middle-income voters, and something that shows we
:35:20. > :35:27.genuinely care about the life chances of the poorest. Do you think
:35:28. > :35:33.that the people who vote UKIP don't support those aspirations? We are
:35:34. > :35:37.not doing enough to cut immigration. We don't have an EU Referendum Bill
:35:38. > :35:44.stop we have to get the centre right to vote for us again. Do that, and
:35:45. > :35:48.we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 25 euros, will be returned in Corby
:35:49. > :36:01.because we cannot win an election there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether
:36:02. > :36:07.you are moderniser or traditionalist, people, particularly
:36:08. > :36:15.in the North, see you as a bunch of rich men. And rich southerners. You
:36:16. > :36:19.are bunch of rich southerners. We need to do more to show that we are
:36:20. > :36:26.building on lifting the poorest out of the tax. We need to build more
:36:27. > :36:32.houses. There is a perception that the leadership at the moment is
:36:33. > :36:36.rich, and public school educated. What we have to do is get more
:36:37. > :36:42.people from state education into the top. You are going the other way at
:36:43. > :36:51.the moment. That is a fair criticism. Modernisers also say
:36:52. > :36:56.that. I went to a combo hedge of school as well. -- do a
:36:57. > :37:06.comprehensive school. We need to show that we are standing up for low
:37:07. > :37:08.income. Thank Q, both of you. You are watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:09. > :37:27.Coming up in just under Hello once again from the Midlands.
:37:28. > :37:35.I'm Patrick Burns. With us today, an MP who grew up on a farm. And an MEP
:37:36. > :37:38.who is a farmer himself. Birmingham Edgbaston's Gisela Stuart is a
:37:39. > :37:42.milkmaid no longer. She's the only Labour MP to say she thinks Britain
:37:43. > :37:47.will inevitably leave the EU ` or rather, it will leave us. While the
:37:48. > :37:51.Liberal Democrat MEP, farmer Phil Bennion, is determined to defend our
:37:52. > :38:02.place in the EU, along with his seat in its Parliament in next year's
:38:03. > :38:05.elections. Welcome to you both. And while the two biggest parties
:38:06. > :38:08.agonise over a referendum that could eventually lead us out of the EU,
:38:09. > :38:12.the Liberal Democrats "accentuate the positives" of staying in. Phil
:38:13. > :38:14.Bennion is trumpeting the ?765 million worth of regional
:38:15. > :38:21.development and social funding coming our way in the six years to
:38:22. > :38:23.2020. Coventry's Transport Museum receives ?7.7 million for its
:38:24. > :38:32.refurbishment and development programme. Prince Charles will be
:38:33. > :38:35.celebrating because Burslem in North Staffordshire gets ?1 million to
:38:36. > :38:43.turn the listed Middleport Pottery into work space units for new
:38:44. > :38:47.businesses, and a visitor centre. And for West Bromwich there is life
:38:48. > :38:55.after The Public: ?4 million for the town centre regeneration scheme. You
:38:56. > :39:01.have been celebrating this, Phil but when you have view `` UK
:39:02. > :39:06.Independence Party representation here, they say that there is not
:39:07. > :39:14.getting enough here, they say that there is not
:39:15. > :39:18.back, the net contribution is smaller and we also get a lot of
:39:19. > :39:27.agricultural money back. Overall, we only pay in around ?4 million a
:39:28. > :39:37.year... Sorry, 4 billion. We do not know what it is regionally. There is
:39:38. > :39:42.no break down of those statistics. It is very compact to find out. As a
:39:43. > :39:46.region we do very well into the drawing down the money. The Treasury
:39:47. > :39:52.is in charge so it depends where the tax comes from. The budget is being
:39:53. > :39:58.cut for this? There is a smaller budget for the European union as a
:39:59. > :40:03.whole, 6% smaller for the period but the West Midlands is drawing down in
:40:04. > :40:10.social and structural funds considerably more. We are getting
:40:11. > :40:14.seven in city 5 million `` 765 million compared to 760 million. We
:40:15. > :40:22.have done very well. It sounds like lots of money that we
:40:23. > :40:29.are missing out if we come out of Europe? My stance is not that we
:40:30. > :40:33.should come out, it is that we should not contemplate joining a
:40:34. > :40:37.single currency and Britain will find it hard to be part of this
:40:38. > :40:43.union. But with that of the European funding, I would be churlish to be
:40:44. > :40:48.not glad that we are not getting a significant amount of money. But we
:40:49. > :40:51.had regional development agencies and labour which co`ordinated across
:40:52. > :40:55.the whole region is how these funds would be invested. Now we have got a
:40:56. > :41:01.fragmentation of local enterprise boards and beget buckets here and
:41:02. > :41:07.there but over a structured... But they say it is more targeted and
:41:08. > :41:09.efficient. If you look at things like overall transport and
:41:10. > :41:13.regeneration, that requires someone to hold the ring and say this is
:41:14. > :41:18.what we need to do and this is how we will fill the pocket. So we may
:41:19. > :41:20.have gained some money but we have lost strategic spending. For the
:41:21. > :41:24.moment, thank you. Coming up: what price a duty of
:41:25. > :41:27.candour in the Health Department? Jeremy Hunt says staff numbers in
:41:28. > :41:30.hospital wards must be published monthly because of Stafford. But are
:41:31. > :41:35.our politicians ever entirely open about the vital signs of the NHS
:41:36. > :41:39.itself? And how will this issue play in our election hotspots over the
:41:40. > :41:44.next 18 months? More on this in a few minutes.
:41:45. > :41:49.Should we brace ourselves for an unprecedented influx of Eastern
:41:50. > :41:52.European migrant workers? Or is the spectre of Bulgarians and Romanians
:41:53. > :41:55.descending in their thousands on our famous crop`growing areas, just so
:41:56. > :42:03.much political scaremongering and media hype? We'll know soon enough
:42:04. > :42:06.what impact this will have on local jobs and services. The immigration
:42:07. > :42:09.rules are to be eased in the New Year. So our Hereford and Worcester
:42:10. > :42:16.political reporter Matthew Bone has been talking to the people most
:42:17. > :42:19.directly affected. At the height of the picking season,
:42:20. > :42:26.thousands of migrant workers come to Herefordshire to help bring in the
:42:27. > :42:28.harvest. On Lower Hope Farm near Hereford, quick picking is critical
:42:29. > :42:32.for a successful cherry harvest. They need to get the fruit off the
:42:33. > :42:36.trees, before temperatures drop. On a cold morning in November, those
:42:37. > :42:39.busy days seem a long time ago, and only a few workers remain. One of
:42:40. > :42:43.them is Koko. He was born in Bulgaria and has been on Lower Hope
:42:44. > :42:47.Farm for more than a decade. He's now employed all year round as the
:42:48. > :42:49.shift manager. Well, straightaway I socialised with people. I've been
:42:50. > :42:53.playing football for the local village. The guys accepted me quite
:42:54. > :42:57.well, it was quite fun for them as well to have an international player
:42:58. > :43:01.there, you know, we had a great time with the boys. Everything has
:43:02. > :43:08.changed for me and when I go home, sometimes a feel like a stranger
:43:09. > :43:11.sometimes. Most of the Eastern European workers who picked this
:43:12. > :43:13.field clean this year came through what's called the Seasonal
:43:14. > :43:17.Agricultural Workers Scheme. The farm used a company to hire staff
:43:18. > :43:21.from Eastern Europe, they were flown over for a few months, put up and
:43:22. > :43:24.paid by the farm, then flown back once their term ended. This scheme
:43:25. > :43:27.is being scrapped next year. Instead, the restrictions on workers
:43:28. > :43:31.will be lifted, meaning Romanians and Bulgarians will be able to come
:43:32. > :43:36.to Britain to do any job they choose and stay as long as they like. Down
:43:37. > :43:42.the road in Marden it's a typical English village. There's the post
:43:43. > :43:49.office, a church ` and a local Eastern European food store. And in
:43:50. > :43:53.Hereford city centre, you can see signs of retailers catering to more
:43:54. > :43:56.diverse tastes. But how do people in the city feel about it all? Well,
:43:57. > :43:59.only probably that if they're working in low`paid jobs, they're
:44:00. > :44:03.not getting the right rate. I know people that can't get jobs who are
:44:04. > :44:06.British people and they can't get jobs. I mean, if they're letting
:44:07. > :44:10.more people take jobs from here, what's going to happen in the end?
:44:11. > :44:13.It sounds racist, doesn't it, but British people need somewhere to
:44:14. > :44:16.live as well. And jobs, obviously. But some politicians are worried
:44:17. > :44:19.about a sudden increase. The obvious increase is the extra pressure on
:44:20. > :44:23.public services, on primary school places, on housing. And of course,
:44:24. > :44:26.what it does is it plays into the hands of keeping wages low.
:44:27. > :44:31.Around 3,800 seasonal migrant workers came to Herefordshire in
:44:32. > :44:37.2012. 42% of them were from Bulgaria, 19% of them were from
:44:38. > :44:40.Romania. For people like Koko, the opportunities for work in
:44:41. > :44:44.Herefordshire have been too good to turn down. But how many more
:44:45. > :44:50.migrants will follow him once the restrictions end? That is proving
:44:51. > :44:55.very difficult to predict. All we know is nobody knows. Matthew
:44:56. > :45:00.Bone reporting. And we're also joined here today by Alp Mehmet from
:45:01. > :45:03.Migration Watch UK. They're campaigning for what they call the
:45:04. > :45:18."absolute need" to set a target on net migration, and stick to it. How
:45:19. > :45:21.can that be done? There is no way we can legally say to people go home,
:45:22. > :45:27.you're not wanted if you are members of the EU and the European Union,
:45:28. > :45:33.Romanians and Bulgarians will be in that position. So should we be
:45:34. > :45:39.bracing ourselves for an influx? You are using colourful words, these
:45:40. > :45:47.numbers will certainly materialise, there will be between 30`70,000
:45:48. > :45:51.additional migrants coming here from the 1st of January, we believe over
:45:52. > :45:58.the five`year period. How does that compare with Polish immigration? I
:45:59. > :46:02.don't Inc ministers know and they seem reluctant to say that Mike I
:46:03. > :46:12.don't think ministers. If you compare living standards with what
:46:13. > :46:17.happened `` to say, I don't think ministers. I have lived in Romania,
:46:18. > :46:22.and Romanians are wonderful people. My concern is that no one ever gives
:46:23. > :46:26.any thought to the numbers that are going to be coming in and the
:46:27. > :46:30.consequences. Well, what are the consequences? The worry is that jobs
:46:31. > :46:33.and services and things like education and the housing issue
:46:34. > :46:43.which is already stretched as it is without the extra numbers to cater
:46:44. > :46:46.for. Everybody is worried about the seasonal agricultural workers, they
:46:47. > :46:51.will come, the farmers want them to come. But I suggest this gives us an
:46:52. > :46:56.opportunity to attract the young people into the agricultural sector
:46:57. > :47:01.that have been flying away from that particular sect the and perhaps pay
:47:02. > :47:05.them a little more and I say that knowing that there are farmers in
:47:06. > :47:08.the room. We could be paying a little more rather than relying on
:47:09. > :47:13.cheap labour which is what often happens. Do farmers feel reliant on
:47:14. > :47:20.cheap labour? Seasonal fruit pickers? I do not know what the
:47:21. > :47:22.wages are that the farmers depend on them and the indigenous population
:47:23. > :47:27.have not shown any inclination whatsoever to take the jobs so the
:47:28. > :47:32.farmers... I know the farming union are very worried about losing this
:47:33. > :47:36.scheme because these are seasonal workers, not workers that are here
:47:37. > :47:40.all year round and it is not just Herefordshire, it is all over the
:47:41. > :47:45.West Midlands. What do you say to the point in the report there that
:47:46. > :47:49.this will add yet more to the race to the bottom of the lower end of
:47:50. > :47:55.the wages scale? That it will put more pressure downwards on low`paid
:47:56. > :48:01.jobs? It will not put pressure on low`paid people because effectively
:48:02. > :48:07.we have a very strong minimum wage framework and that is likely as our
:48:08. > :48:12.economy is now pulling up, to see an increase in the minimum wage. So
:48:13. > :48:17.that is an unwarranted scare. The other point is that what we have
:48:18. > :48:24.seen with migrant labour is that they are generally running a budget
:48:25. > :48:28.surplus. That is the evidence we have from researchers, that they pay
:48:29. > :48:33.more in taxes than they draw down in services and benefits. Gisela, what
:48:34. > :48:37.do you make of this? Jack Straw admitted that Labour had got it
:48:38. > :48:43.wrong a decade ago in terms of the absence of controls, where a wave of
:48:44. > :48:48.new accession countries came in. With the seasonal workers, I think
:48:49. > :48:52.much stronger in fermentation of the minimum wage and enforcing it is
:48:53. > :48:59.really important. The thing which grieves me so much is that 40 years
:49:00. > :49:03.ago, the common market compared to another was the thing that was meant
:49:04. > :49:09.to unite Europe and the free movement of labour. What you see now
:49:10. > :49:12.across the continent in Germany, France, elsewhere, the free movement
:49:13. > :49:16.of labour is something which is causing the greatest political
:49:17. > :49:20.discontent and that is a source of great sadness on my part. White
:49:21. > :49:25.actor and it is driving the immigration issue ``.
:49:26. > :49:34.It is driving up the immigration issue everywhere. We have had
:49:35. > :49:43.380,000 new jobs created in the UK and 90% of those have gone to
:49:44. > :49:47.British people. The fact is when people talk about the contribution
:49:48. > :49:54.that immigrants make, of course nobody is saying that they don't. I
:49:55. > :49:56.am an immigrant, I am a first generation immigrants. We talk about
:49:57. > :50:01.limiting immigration and controlling it, we are talking about sensible
:50:02. > :50:05.numbers, not running at the rate which is in no one's interests
:50:06. > :50:10.including the immigrants coming here. What you make of an
:50:11. > :50:13.observation in the comments if you days ago by David Willetts pointing
:50:14. > :50:18.out what he called a suspiciously high number of applications from
:50:19. > :50:22.students loans from Bulgarian and Romanian students? And three
:50:23. > :50:25.quarters of them had not produced the qualifications and evidence they
:50:26. > :50:33.needed to show where they were entitled to it's of course it will
:50:34. > :50:36.happen, it does not take a genius to know that is the sort of thing that
:50:37. > :50:41.will happen. Not because they are all corrupt in other countries but
:50:42. > :50:44.because you give young people the opportunity to have access to
:50:45. > :50:53.money, they will do it and that is what has happened. we hear that Mark
:50:54. > :50:55.Prichard is supporting an amendment to the Immigration Bill going
:50:56. > :51:00.through Parliament which would extend for a further five years this
:51:01. > :51:06.seasonal agriculture workers scheme which would give us longer time to
:51:07. > :51:16.think about it. It does not address the fundamental open. If you have
:51:17. > :51:18.unlimited problem in 28 countries `` unlimited movement, you will have a
:51:19. > :51:24.problem if you don't do anything about it. We will get a smaller
:51:25. > :51:27.number of people coming, and as has been said, we don't know how many
:51:28. > :51:31.people will come but one of the things we must remember is that the
:51:32. > :51:35.economy is in a mania and Bulgaria are growing strongly, 5% per year ``
:51:36. > :51:42.in Romania and Bulgaria. White Nine months after Robert Francis QC
:51:43. > :51:46.delivered his Stafford Hospital report, came the Government's formal
:51:47. > :51:49.response. Jeremy Hunt enshrined the "duty of
:51:50. > :51:52.candour", recommended by Francis, with staffing numbers on the wards
:51:53. > :52:02.to be published monthly, to 'build trust in the NHS': but no guaranteed
:52:03. > :52:07.minimum staffing levels. So is there still a question of trust in the
:52:08. > :52:10.politicians responsible for it all? Especially in those key marginal
:52:11. > :52:13.seats which happen to be in the front`line of hospital
:52:14. > :52:18.reorganisation plans. Safer hospitals, more staff, better
:52:19. > :52:21.training, better care. The message from the Health Secretary was clear
:52:22. > :52:31.as he announced his proposals for an improved NHS following the Stafford
:52:32. > :52:36.Hospital scandal. Cruelty became normal in our NHS and nobody
:52:37. > :52:40.noticed. But after Mid`Staffs, the NHS has listened and learned and the
:52:41. > :52:45.NHS will not rest until it is delivering the safest, most
:52:46. > :52:48.effective and most compassionate care anywhere in the world. Stafford
:52:49. > :52:50.became a byeword for shockingly poor treatment, neglected patients died
:52:51. > :52:58.early, an NHS hospital that apparently didn't care. A hospital
:52:59. > :53:10.now trying to rebuild its reputation. A culture of so care for
:53:11. > :53:13.all in the NHS must be a legacy of the Francis enquiry, it is the least
:53:14. > :53:16.that those who suffered from neglect and their loved ones who campaign
:53:17. > :53:19.for justice deserve. Mr Hunt's shadow raised a current issue about
:53:20. > :53:25.staffing a concerns mount that hospital staff levels are falling
:53:26. > :53:31.not rising. But isn't it the case that nurse patient ratios have got
:53:32. > :53:39.significantly worse in the last three years with 5890 fewer nurses,
:53:40. > :53:43.more older patients in hospital and bed occupancy running at record
:53:44. > :53:45.levels? The fall`out from Mid Staffordshire, hospital
:53:46. > :53:48.reorganisations in Shropshire and Worcestershire and concerns about
:53:49. > :53:59.patient waiting times have once again pushed the NHS up the
:54:00. > :54:02.political agenda. For voters in places like Stafford, Redditch,
:54:03. > :54:05.Worcester and Telford the state of our hospitals could yet prove to be
:54:06. > :54:10.THE decisive issue in 2015's general election.
:54:11. > :54:13.It's happened before, in Wyre Forest of course, where the former
:54:14. > :54:23.independent MP Richard Taylor is to stand again, this time for the new
:54:24. > :54:27.National Health Action Party. Gisela, you are a former health
:54:28. > :54:31.minister. Whatever is said in Parliament and whatever the good
:54:32. > :54:33.intentions of all parties, isn't it true that the sheer pressure of
:54:34. > :54:39.numbers, the caring for an ageing population, there is a danger for
:54:40. > :54:43.another Mid`Staffs? I have got a real sense we have been there
:54:44. > :54:46.before, around 1999 when Tony Blair announced that we would
:54:47. > :54:50.fundamentally increase the spending of the NHS and with that expand the
:54:51. > :54:54.number of nurses and doctors. We have now got a promise of increasing
:54:55. > :55:01.care of something like losing 6000 nurses in the next few years.
:55:02. > :55:06.Quality can care commission `` the quality care commission giving other
:55:07. > :55:10.impressions, I have not got any covenants that this will be
:55:11. > :55:13.delivered. How will this play in the election when you think about this
:55:14. > :55:19.coincidence, this like Redditch, Stafford itself, Worcester, Telford,
:55:20. > :55:26.these are places with the National health action party due to
:55:27. > :55:30.intervene, potentially a decisive action? It will be critical because
:55:31. > :55:35.people who have first`hand experience of the NHS, we will see
:55:36. > :55:39.these configurations which are not stable and if you do not have
:55:40. > :55:42.nurses, we will see whether ministerial words add up to actions
:55:43. > :55:46.and I am worried that particularly this winter, we will see something
:55:47. > :55:54.which I thought we had seen the back of. Phil, you live in Staffordshire,
:55:55. > :56:01.use all the Minister there fighting the cause for hospital services in
:56:02. > :56:04.his area, James Lefroy. It is inevitable that every local MP will
:56:05. > :56:07.stand up for the full set of services they have got, no change.
:56:08. > :56:12.Giving you have this wider constituency for the whole West
:56:13. > :56:20.Midlands, is it an argument that is getting lost by constituency MPs?
:56:21. > :56:23.That is always happening but in this case, the fact that Stafford
:56:24. > :56:27.Hospital has had the operational problems and then financial problems
:56:28. > :56:31.does not remove the need for a hospital in Stafford. The need for
:56:32. > :56:38.that hospital to be there with the services that it has has not changed
:56:39. > :56:47.due to the problems so we have to put them right and Stafford hospital
:56:48. > :56:50.has to continue. Now we have got NHS England which appears to be
:56:51. > :56:56.responsible for everything and nothing so we haven't even got a
:56:57. > :56:59.structure which allows as to say these are the services we need to
:57:00. > :57:03.move, it is fragmentation and that is bad. Thank you again.
:57:04. > :57:06.Now for our regular round`up of the political week in the Midlands in 60
:57:07. > :57:07.seconds, with our mid`morning presenter on BBC WM 95.6, Adrian
:57:08. > :57:16.Goldberg. West Midlands MEP Nikki Sinclaire
:57:17. > :57:20.says she's been overwhelmed with support after revealing she became a
:57:21. > :57:26.woman at the age of 23 after a sex change.
:57:27. > :57:31.Labour's Joan Walley is stepping down at the next election. The MP
:57:32. > :57:34.says it's time to hang up her boots after serving the people of Stoke
:57:35. > :57:36.North since 1987. Construction workers protested in
:57:37. > :57:41.Birmingham calling for a public inquiry into blacklisting. They say
:57:42. > :57:49.building firms used the lists to deny work to people. It is an
:57:50. > :57:52.abomination, a national scandal, a disgrace.
:57:53. > :57:54.Campaigners renewed calls for the 1974 Birmingham pub bombings to be
:57:55. > :57:58.reinvestigated after winning the support of Paddy Hill, one of the
:57:59. > :58:03.men wrongly convicted of the attacks which claimed 21 lives.
:58:04. > :58:06.And Director`General Tony Hall announced that BBC Birmingham is to
:58:07. > :58:07.become a training, apprenticeship and digital innovation centre
:58:08. > :58:20.bringing 80 jobs to the city. This after some intensive political
:58:21. > :58:29.lobbying in which Gisela was a prime`mover. I you satisfied with
:58:30. > :58:38.what you have heard from the director`general's not yet. It is a
:58:39. > :58:42.great start. Getting these jobs and some of these are relocations from
:58:43. > :58:46.other places. I will not rest until they bring more production to
:58:47. > :58:50.Birmingham. The drama village will be extended. I want more programmes
:58:51. > :58:54.produced here because that when the West Midlands back to the heart of
:58:55. > :59:02.broadcasting which so far we have lost. I saw Phil nodding. I entirely
:59:03. > :59:08.agree, we have lost too much of the national picture from Birmingham
:59:09. > :59:12.with pebble Mill... That will not be rebuilt. No, but we have got
:59:13. > :59:15.something good coming back. We have lost out in the national picture
:59:16. > :59:24.deviously and I think it is something we can start to rebuild ``
:59:25. > :59:29.national picture obviously. This emphasis on the cultural diversity
:59:30. > :59:34.with the city which seems to chime with you. Tony Hall does understand
:59:35. > :59:37.and he is caught between a rock and a hard place with other things going
:59:38. > :59:41.on so that is why anything new coming to the table must come to
:59:42. > :59:44.Birmingham. My thanks to Gisela and Phil. Coming up tomorrow, a mass
:59:45. > :59:47.lobby of Parliament by opponents of HS2. They'll be descending on
:59:48. > :59:50.Westminster by the coachload. We'll be following developments throughout
:59:51. > :00:09.the day on BBC Coventry and Warwickshire, and on BBC WM. Now
:00:10. > :00:10.back to Andrew Neil. I wonder if they will be any
:00:11. > :00:15.those people who want to cycle. We will be returning to this one. Thank
:00:16. > :00:25.you. A little bit of history was made at
:00:26. > :00:30.Prime Minister's Questions this week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't
:00:31. > :00:33.David Cameron accusing one MP of taking "mind-altering substances" -
:00:34. > :00:36.they're always accusing each other of doing that. No, it was the first
:00:37. > :00:39.time a Prime Minister used a live tweet sent from someone watching the
:00:40. > :00:48.session as ammunition at the dispatch box. Let's have a look. We
:00:49. > :00:54.have had some interesting interventions from front edges past
:00:55. > :00:59.and present. I hope I can break records by explaining that a tweet
:01:00. > :01:02.has just come in from Tony McNulty, the former Labour security
:01:03. > :01:08.minister, saying that the public are desperate for a PM in waiting who
:01:09. > :01:12.speaks for them, not a Leader of the Opposition in dodging in partisan
:01:13. > :01:16.Westminster Village knock about. So I would stay up with the tweets if
:01:17. > :01:21.you want to get on the right side of this one! We are working on how the
:01:22. > :01:26.Prime Minister managed to get that wheat in the first place. What did
:01:27. > :01:32.you think when you saw it being read out? I was certainly watching the
:01:33. > :01:37.Daily Politics. I almost fell off my chair! It was quite astonishing. He
:01:38. > :01:41.didn't answer the question - he didn't do that the whole time. But I
:01:42. > :01:46.stand by what the tweets said. I have tweeted for a long time on
:01:47. > :01:52.PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed Miliband to the hilt, but no one
:01:53. > :01:56.announces that in Parliament! Because the Prime Minister picked up
:01:57. > :02:01.on what you said, it unleashed some attacks on you from the Labour side.
:02:02. > :02:06.It did, minor attacks from some very junior people. Most people were
:02:07. > :02:12.supportive of what I said. They took issue with the notion of not doing
:02:13. > :02:16.it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't available for the other side to use.
:02:17. > :02:21.Instant history, and instantly forgettable, I would say. Do you
:02:22. > :02:26.think you have started a bit of a trend? I hope not, because the
:02:27. > :02:36.dumbing down of PMQs is already on its way. Most people tweet like mad
:02:37. > :02:39.through PMQs! Is a measure of how post-modern we have become, we have
:02:40. > :02:45.journalists tweeting about someone talking about a tweet. That is the
:02:46. > :02:49.level of British politics. I am horrified by this development. The
:02:50. > :02:55.whole of modern life has become about observing people -- people
:02:56. > :03:01.observing themselves doing things. Do we know what happened? Somebody
:03:02. > :03:05.is monitoring the tweets on behalf of the Prime Minister or the Tory
:03:06. > :03:10.party. They see Tony's tweet. They then print it out and give it to
:03:11. > :03:14.him? There was a suggestion that Michael Goves had spotted it, but
:03:15. > :03:24.Craig Oliver from the BBC had this great sort of... Craig Oliver was
:03:25. > :03:29.holding up his iPad to take pictures of the Prime Minister, which he then
:03:30. > :03:33.tweeted, from the Prime Minister. People will now be tweeting in the
:03:34. > :03:39.hope that they will be quoted by the Prime Minister, or the Leader of the
:03:40. > :03:44.Opposition. I wasn't doing that. I'm just talking about the monster you
:03:45. > :03:49.have unleashed! I hope it dies a miserable death. I think Tony is a
:03:50. > :03:59.good analysis -- a good analyst of PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the
:04:00. > :04:08.Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP, white you? I was a Co-op party
:04:09. > :04:11.member. There are two issues here about the Co-op and the Labour
:04:12. > :04:16.Party. All the new music suggests that the Co-op will now have to
:04:17. > :04:21.start pulling back from lending or donating to the Labour Party, which,
:04:22. > :04:24.at a time when Mr Miliband is going through changes that are going to
:04:25. > :04:30.cut of the union funds, it seems quite dangerous. There are three
:04:31. > :04:34.things going on. There's the relationship that the party has
:04:35. > :04:40.politically with the Co-op party, there is the commercial relationship
:04:41. > :04:43.you referred to, and then there is this enquiry into the comings and
:04:44. > :04:51.goings of Flowers and everybody else. The Tories, at their peril,
:04:52. > :04:54.will mix the three up. There's a lot of things going on with a bang.
:04:55. > :04:59.Labour has some issues around funding generally, and they are
:05:00. > :05:08.potentially exacerbated by the Co-op issue. The Labour Party gets soft
:05:09. > :05:15.loans from the Co-op bank, and it gets donations. ?800,000 last year.
:05:16. > :05:18.Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his private office. You get the feeling,
:05:19. > :05:24.given the state of the Co-operative Bank now, that that money could dry
:05:25. > :05:28.up. We will see. There's lots of speculation in the papers today. At
:05:29. > :05:33.the core, the relationship between the Co-op party and the Labour Party
:05:34. > :05:38.is a proud one, and a legitimate one. I don't think others always
:05:39. > :05:43.understand that. Here is an even bigger issue. Is it not possible
:05:44. > :05:50.that the Co-op bank will cease to exist in any meaningful way as a
:05:51. > :06:01.Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it is 70% owned -- the bail out means
:06:02. > :06:07.that it is 70% owned, or 35% going to a hedge fund, I think I read.
:06:08. > :06:11.Yes, there is a move from the mutualism of the Co-op. But don't
:06:12. > :06:22.confuse the Co-op bank with the Co-op Group. Others have done that.
:06:23. > :06:30.I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft loans that Labour gets. They got
:06:31. > :06:39.?1.2 million from this. And 2.4 million. They are secured against
:06:40. > :06:45.future union membership fees of the party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He
:06:46. > :06:49.is trying to end that? You have this very difficult confluence of events,
:06:50. > :06:54.which is, could these wonderful soft loans that Labour has had from the
:06:55. > :06:59.Co-op, could they be going? And these union reforms, where Ed
:07:00. > :07:04.Miliband is trying to create a link between individuals and donations to
:07:05. > :07:08.the Labour Party... Clearly, there could be real financial difficulties
:07:09. > :07:12.here. The government needs to be careful, because George Osborne
:07:13. > :07:15.launched one of his classic blunderbuss operations this week,
:07:16. > :07:22.which is that the Labour Party is to blame for Paul Flowers' private
:07:23. > :07:29.life. No, it's not. And that all the problems, essentially... Look at
:07:30. > :07:33.what George Osborne was doing in Europe. He was trying to change the
:07:34. > :07:38.capital requirement rules that would make it easier for the Co-op to take
:07:39. > :07:41.over Lloyd's. If there is to be a big investigation, George Osborne
:07:42. > :07:46.needs to be careful of what he wishes for. This is another example
:07:47. > :07:49.of the Westminster consensus. All of the Westminster parties were in
:07:50. > :07:55.favour of the Britannia takeover. This is how the Co-op ended up with
:07:56. > :07:58.all this toxic rubbish on its balance sheet. All the major parties
:07:59. > :08:02.were in favour of going to get the Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to
:08:03. > :08:10.outdo Labour in being more pro-Co-op. There was nobody in
:08:11. > :08:16.Westminster saying, hold on, this doesn't work. It is like the
:08:17. > :08:20.financial bubble all over again. Everyone was in favour of that at
:08:21. > :08:24.the time. I think there is no evidence so far that the storm is
:08:25. > :08:29.cutting through to the average voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I
:08:30. > :08:34.would let it die a natural death. I would not write to an editorial
:08:35. > :08:39.column for a national newspaper on a Sunday. That keeps the issue alive,
:08:40. > :08:47.and it makes him look oversensitive and much better at dishing it out
:08:48. > :08:50.than taking it. I agree about that. The Labour press team tweeted this
:08:51. > :09:01.week saying that it was a new low for the times. And this was
:09:02. > :09:06.re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't a great press attitude. It is very
:09:07. > :09:12.Moni. Bill Clinton went out there and fought and made the case. So did
:09:13. > :09:18.Tony Blair. If you just say, they are being horrible to us, it looks
:09:19. > :09:23.pathetic. And it will cut through on Osborne and the financial
:09:24. > :09:33.dimensional is, not political. I shall tweet that later! While we
:09:34. > :09:38.have been talking, Mr Miliband has been on Desert Island Discs. He
:09:39. > :09:46.might still be on it. Let's have a listen to what he had to say.
:09:47. > :09:58.# Take on me, take me on. # And threw it all, she offers me
:09:59. > :10:10.protection. # A lot of love and affection.
:10:11. > :10:25.# Whether I'm right or wrong #. # Je Ne Regrette Rien. #.
:10:26. > :10:31.Obviously, that was the music that Ed Miliband chose. Who thought --
:10:32. > :10:41.you would have thought he would choose Norman Lamont's theme tune!
:10:42. > :10:52.He chose Jerusalem... He has no classical background at all. He had
:10:53. > :11:00.no Beethoven, no Elgar. David Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie,
:11:01. > :11:11.the fastest Notman in the West. -- fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose
:11:12. > :11:14.the theme tune to a movie. Tony Blair's list was chosen by young
:11:15. > :11:24.staffers in his office. It absolutely was. Tony Blair's list
:11:25. > :11:28.was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband this was clearly chosen by himself,
:11:29. > :11:38.because who would allow politician to go out there and say that they
:11:39. > :11:42.like Aha. I am the same age as Ed Miliband, and of course he likes
:11:43. > :11:54.Aha. That was the tumour was played in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is
:11:55. > :12:02.Angels by Robbie Williams. I was 14-year-old girl when that came out.
:12:03. > :12:09.I thought Angels was the staple of hen nights and chucking out time in
:12:10. > :12:12.pubs. The really good thing about his list is that the Smiths to not
:12:13. > :12:18.appear. The Smiths were all over David Cameron's list. The absolutely
:12:19. > :12:27.miserable music of Morris he was not there. What was his luxury? And
:12:28. > :12:34.Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for political reasons. I would agree
:12:35. > :12:41.with the panel about Aha, but I would expect -- I would respect his
:12:42. > :12:46.right to choose. Have you been on Desert Island Discs? I have. It took
:12:47. > :12:51.me three weeks to choose the music. It was the most difficult decision
:12:52. > :12:56.in my life. What was the most embarrassing thing you chose? I
:12:57. > :13:01.didn't choose anything embarrassing. I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some
:13:02. > :13:13.proper modern jazz. Anything from the modern era? Pet Shop Boys.
:13:14. > :13:17.That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be on BBC Two at
:13:18. > :13:20.lunchtime every day next week, and we'll be back here on BBC One at
:13:21. > :13:23.11am next week. My luxury, by the way, was a wind-up radio! Remember,
:13:24. > :13:31.if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.