12/01/2014

:00:39. > :00:47.Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the

:00:48. > :00:51.coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance

:00:52. > :00:55.the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he

:00:56. > :01:00.will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a

:01:01. > :01:04.completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the

:01:05. > :01:09.European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.

:01:10. > :01:11.Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how

:01:12. > :01:18.will they be serious. Have cuts left to the

:01:19. > :01:40.service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio

:01:41. > :01:44.of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They

:01:45. > :01:51.will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick

:01:52. > :01:56.Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,

:01:57. > :02:00.the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on

:02:01. > :02:05.welfare after the next election You cannot say, as the Conservatives

:02:06. > :02:08.are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will

:02:09. > :02:12.not make any additional contributions from their taxes if

:02:13. > :02:15.there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to

:02:16. > :02:23.balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy

:02:24. > :02:28.people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the

:02:29. > :02:32.hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear

:02:33. > :02:37.to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make

:02:38. > :02:40.additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public

:02:41. > :02:46.finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories

:02:47. > :02:53.a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive

:02:54. > :02:59.differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two

:03:00. > :03:04.years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is

:03:05. > :03:08.what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying

:03:09. > :03:14.to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the

:03:15. > :03:20.polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will

:03:21. > :03:23.do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined

:03:24. > :03:29.with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There

:03:30. > :03:33.was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the

:03:34. > :03:38.Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent

:03:39. > :03:42.macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals

:03:43. > :03:47.with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was

:03:48. > :03:52.more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have

:03:53. > :03:56.to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,

:03:57. > :04:00.but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was

:04:01. > :04:04.foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a

:04:05. > :04:10.coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I

:04:11. > :04:17.cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about

:04:18. > :04:20.principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed

:04:21. > :04:26.Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a

:04:27. > :04:32.joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed

:04:33. > :04:37.Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood

:04:38. > :04:41.the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he

:04:42. > :04:45.said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels

:04:46. > :04:50.liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and

:04:51. > :04:56.maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election But

:04:57. > :04:59.he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both

:05:00. > :05:04.the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the

:05:05. > :05:07.Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels

:05:08. > :05:13.relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing

:05:14. > :05:19.pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories

:05:20. > :05:24.think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more

:05:25. > :05:30.he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall

:05:31. > :05:33.majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular

:05:34. > :05:37.positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the

:05:38. > :05:42.scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who

:05:43. > :05:49.are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more

:05:50. > :05:54.left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in

:05:55. > :06:01.them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten

:06:02. > :06:06.macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing,

:06:07. > :06:11.you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for

:06:12. > :06:18.the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift,

:06:19. > :06:21.Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what

:06:22. > :06:28.could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters,

:06:29. > :06:32.soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you

:06:33. > :06:36.fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour

:06:37. > :06:39.Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision

:06:40. > :06:47.with the Conservatives, you have a problem.

:06:48. > :06:54.Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM

:06:55. > :06:55.Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers

:06:56. > :07:12.taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are

:07:13. > :07:22.protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are

:07:23. > :07:28.tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal

:07:29. > :07:31.justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only

:07:32. > :07:36.have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had

:07:37. > :07:40.the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades

:07:41. > :07:46.after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government,

:07:47. > :07:51.is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's

:07:52. > :07:54.financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the

:07:55. > :08:01.election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a

:08:02. > :08:07.change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer

:08:08. > :08:17.without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you

:08:18. > :08:20.would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of

:08:21. > :08:27.prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically,

:08:28. > :08:31.Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris

:08:32. > :08:38.Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working

:08:39. > :08:42.since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a

:08:43. > :08:46.job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a

:08:47. > :08:49.category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a

:08:50. > :08:56.company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at

:08:57. > :09:01.times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is

:09:02. > :09:07.different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson

:09:08. > :09:11.have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and

:09:12. > :09:16.outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of

:09:17. > :09:21.their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such

:09:22. > :09:26.cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working

:09:27. > :09:34.with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now

:09:35. > :09:37.what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ

:09:38. > :09:43.offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now

:09:44. > :09:48.managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ

:09:49. > :09:53.offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have

:09:54. > :09:57.somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not

:09:58. > :10:01.have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean

:10:02. > :10:07.record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and

:10:08. > :10:10.overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we

:10:11. > :10:15.deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since

:10:16. > :10:19.Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to

:10:20. > :10:23.signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make

:10:24. > :10:27.radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to

:10:28. > :10:31.probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there

:10:32. > :10:35.has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him.

:10:36. > :10:39.But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that

:10:40. > :10:43.he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him,

:10:44. > :10:46.he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights,

:10:47. > :10:53.and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go

:10:54. > :10:57.further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the

:10:58. > :11:01.Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on

:11:02. > :11:05.what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be

:11:06. > :11:15.savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological

:11:16. > :11:18.driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money

:11:19. > :11:24.at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of

:11:25. > :11:37.that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection?

:11:38. > :11:44.Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover If

:11:45. > :11:49.you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto

:11:50. > :11:53.promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human

:11:54. > :12:00.rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to

:12:01. > :12:06.curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights

:12:07. > :12:10.act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court

:12:11. > :12:14.they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we

:12:15. > :12:19.have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and

:12:20. > :12:23.responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do

:12:24. > :12:29.not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last

:12:30. > :12:38.September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is

:12:39. > :12:42.clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as

:12:43. > :12:46.long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in

:12:47. > :12:53.Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency -

:12:54. > :12:56.recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will

:12:57. > :13:01.publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a

:13:02. > :13:06.direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will

:13:07. > :13:09.mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the

:13:10. > :13:16.European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept

:13:17. > :13:20.that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,

:13:21. > :13:24.but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we

:13:25. > :13:26.need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the

:13:27. > :13:32.different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We

:13:33. > :13:37.are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our

:13:38. > :13:43.colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our

:13:44. > :13:47.decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,

:13:48. > :13:52.in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will

:13:53. > :13:54.see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that

:13:55. > :14:00.deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the

:14:01. > :14:05.Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,

:14:06. > :14:10.we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is

:14:11. > :14:17.what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But

:14:18. > :14:20.how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we

:14:21. > :14:24.will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail

:14:25. > :14:31.the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The

:14:32. > :14:35.decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you

:14:36. > :14:37.sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney

:14:38. > :15:03.General says. I would be asking Strasberg a

:15:04. > :15:09.different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is

:15:10. > :15:12.enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if

:15:13. > :15:17.this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale

:15:18. > :15:21.reform in the court tomorrow, I m not sure it is going to happen which

:15:22. > :15:28.is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country.

:15:29. > :15:33.Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My

:15:34. > :15:39.mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say

:15:40. > :15:43.where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area

:15:44. > :15:48.where we don't agree as parties but in my view the public in this

:15:49. > :15:53.country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95

:15:54. > :15:57.Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives

:15:58. > :16:01.the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union

:16:02. > :16:07.law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you

:16:08. > :16:13.couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the

:16:14. > :16:25.letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced

:16:26. > :16:30.my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where

:16:31. > :16:33.one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the

:16:34. > :16:40.concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our

:16:41. > :16:43.membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system

:16:44. > :16:47.which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation

:16:48. > :16:53.where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European

:16:54. > :17:02.Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the

:17:03. > :17:06.right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan

:17:07. > :17:10.Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country

:17:11. > :17:16.should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare

:17:17. > :17:21.benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that

:17:22. > :17:26.before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to

:17:27. > :17:31.take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made

:17:32. > :17:35.a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels

:17:36. > :17:39.trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for

:17:40. > :17:44.change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind

:17:45. > :17:48.Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a

:17:49. > :17:52.clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to

:17:53. > :18:00.get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not

:18:01. > :18:06.acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other

:18:07. > :18:12.smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has

:18:13. > :18:17.happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made

:18:18. > :18:24.about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will

:18:25. > :18:29.be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and

:18:30. > :18:35.private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood

:18:36. > :18:39.is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but

:18:40. > :18:47.the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison

:18:48. > :18:51.of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales a

:18:52. > :18:57.big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the

:18:58. > :19:03.last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood

:19:04. > :19:08.and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would

:19:09. > :19:13.you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning

:19:14. > :19:20.permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few

:19:21. > :19:25.years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with

:19:26. > :19:31.dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is

:19:32. > :19:34.acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of

:19:35. > :19:41.contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the

:19:42. > :19:45.Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again.

:19:46. > :19:51.They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer.

:19:52. > :19:58.What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 20 0

:19:59. > :20:08.capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every

:20:09. > :20:12.private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are

:20:13. > :20:16.quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the

:20:17. > :20:23.barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What

:20:24. > :20:29.happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid

:20:30. > :20:33.and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When

:20:34. > :20:39.the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were

:20:40. > :20:44.operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating

:20:45. > :20:47.normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across

:20:48. > :20:52.government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over

:20:53. > :20:56.?2 billion on legal aid at the moment at a time when budgets are

:20:57. > :21:04.becoming tougher. You issued misleading figures about criminal

:21:05. > :21:10.barristers, you said that 25% of them earn over ?100,000 per year but

:21:11. > :21:16.that is their turnover, including VAT. 33% of that money goes on their

:21:17. > :21:21.expenses, they have to pay for their own pensions and insurance. People

:21:22. > :21:27.are not getting wealthy out of doing this work. I don't publish figures,

:21:28. > :21:31.our statisticians do, with caveats in place explaining the situation.

:21:32. > :21:36.Where you have high-cost cases, where we have taken the most

:21:37. > :21:40.difficult decisions, we have tried hard in taking difficult decisions

:21:41. > :21:51.to focus the impact higher up the income scale. But do you accept

:21:52. > :21:56.their take-home pay is not 100, 00? I accept they have to take out other

:21:57. > :22:00.costs, although some things like travelling to the court, you and I

:22:01. > :22:11.and everyone else has to pay for travelling to work. That is net of

:22:12. > :22:18.VAT. We have had a variety of figures published, some are and some

:22:19. > :22:25.are not. Let's be clear, the gross figures for fees from legal payments

:22:26. > :22:31.include 20% VAT. On a week when even a cabinet minister can be fitted up

:22:32. > :22:37.by the police, don't we all need well-financed legal aid? There is no

:22:38. > :22:40.chance that as a result well-financed legal aid? There is no

:22:41. > :22:53.changes people will end up in court unable to defend themselves. We have

:22:54. > :22:58.said in exceptional circumstances, if you haven't got any money to pay,

:22:59. > :23:02.we will support you, but there is no question of anyone ended up in

:23:03. > :23:07.court, facing a criminal charge where they haven't got a lawyer to

:23:08. > :23:12.defend them. Let's look at how so many dangerous criminals have

:23:13. > :23:17.managed to avoid jail. Here are the figures for 2012. Half the people

:23:18. > :23:29.for sexual assault found guilty not jailed. I thought you were meant to

:23:30. > :23:34.be tough on crime? Those figures predate my time, but since 2010 the

:23:35. > :23:40.number of those people going to jail has been increasing steadily. If you

:23:41. > :23:44.put the figures for 2010 on there, you would see a significant change.

:23:45. > :23:50.We will never be in a position where everybody who commits violence will

:23:51. > :23:54.end up in jail. The courts will often decided to his more

:23:55. > :23:58.appropriate to give a community sentence, but the trend is towards

:23:59. > :24:04.longer sentences and more people going to jail. That maybe but it is

:24:05. > :24:11.even quite hard to get sent to jail if you do these things a lot, again

:24:12. > :24:16.and again. In 2012 one criminal avoided being sent to jail despite

:24:17. > :24:25.having more than 300 offences to his name. 36,000 avoided going to jail

:24:26. > :24:29.despite 15 previous offences. That is why we are taking steps to

:24:30. > :24:35.toughen up the system. Last autumn we scrapped repeat cautions. You

:24:36. > :24:41.could find people getting dozens. As of last autumn, we have scrapped

:24:42. > :24:46.repeat cautions. If you commit the same offence twice within a two year

:24:47. > :24:52.period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to

:24:53. > :24:58.jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another

:24:59. > :25:05.34,000 prison places. You haven t got room to put bad people in jail?

:25:06. > :25:10.The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the

:25:11. > :25:16.decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail

:25:17. > :25:21.sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the

:25:22. > :25:26.most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if

:25:27. > :25:31.you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's

:25:32. > :25:38.right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick

:25:39. > :25:46.Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare

:25:47. > :25:51.cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the

:25:52. > :25:59.lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these

:26:00. > :26:04.cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look

:26:05. > :26:12.at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today,

:26:13. > :26:18.after people have left school or college, the live for a time with

:26:19. > :26:22.their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take

:26:23. > :26:26.that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying

:26:27. > :26:31.you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the

:26:32. > :26:34.road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by

:26:35. > :26:42.definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a

:26:43. > :26:48.case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the

:26:49. > :26:52.cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax

:26:53. > :27:00.rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last

:27:01. > :27:06.government. The amount of tax.. There is no more expected of the

:27:07. > :27:10.rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to

:27:11. > :27:15.distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to

:27:16. > :27:21.second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for

:27:22. > :27:27.example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who

:27:28. > :27:33.are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them?

:27:34. > :27:35.Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at

:27:36. > :27:38.Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for

:27:39. > :27:41.Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks

:27:42. > :27:43.set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general

:27:44. > :27:46.election. Although 16% more house-builds were

:27:47. > :27:49.started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed

:27:50. > :27:56.fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for

:27:57. > :27:59.National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should

:28:00. > :28:06.expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's

:28:07. > :28:13.conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would

:28:14. > :28:18.massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end

:28:19. > :28:23.of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year

:28:24. > :28:28.more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make

:28:29. > :28:31.Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban

:28:32. > :28:34.councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and

:28:35. > :28:39.force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government

:28:40. > :28:41.has been pursuing its own ideas including loan guarantees for

:28:42. > :28:45.developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David

:28:46. > :28:48.Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week

:28:49. > :28:50.the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for

:28:51. > :28:57.causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile

:28:58. > :29:12.prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east

:29:13. > :29:15.of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister

:29:16. > :29:18.Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost

:29:19. > :29:22.house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to

:29:23. > :29:27.blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant

:29:28. > :29:33.building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big

:29:34. > :29:36.house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry,

:29:37. > :29:44.where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new

:29:45. > :29:49.homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes

:29:50. > :29:53.as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes,

:29:54. > :29:57.now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because

:29:58. > :30:00.land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big

:30:01. > :30:05.companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being

:30:06. > :30:10.released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental

:30:11. > :30:14.structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said

:30:15. > :30:17.there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there

:30:18. > :30:22.needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self

:30:23. > :30:27.build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have

:30:28. > :30:33.problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it

:30:34. > :30:39.will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big

:30:40. > :30:43.builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the

:30:44. > :30:52.new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But

:30:53. > :30:56.isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and

:30:57. > :31:04.we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are

:31:05. > :31:10.going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the

:31:11. > :31:18.countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is

:31:19. > :31:22.enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The

:31:23. > :31:26.planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am

:31:27. > :31:33.not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public

:31:34. > :31:37.sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public

:31:38. > :31:42.land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are

:31:43. > :31:45.going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes

:31:46. > :31:50.to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are

:31:51. > :31:57.being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing

:31:58. > :32:03.development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will

:32:04. > :32:08.they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand

:32:09. > :32:13.of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases,

:32:14. > :32:17.house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the

:32:18. > :32:23.power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the

:32:24. > :32:28.compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope

:32:29. > :32:35.that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the

:32:36. > :32:42.house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you

:32:43. > :32:46.compulsory purchase it? We would give the local authority as a last

:32:47. > :32:50.resort, after escalating the fees, the possibility and flexible it is

:32:51. > :32:53.to use the compulsory purchase orders to sell the land on to a

:32:54. > :32:59.house builder who wants to build houses that we need. Can you name

:33:00. > :33:01.one report that has come back in recent years that shows that

:33:02. > :33:07.hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the

:33:08. > :33:09.Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are

:33:10. > :33:14.telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we

:33:15. > :33:19.have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots

:33:20. > :33:24.are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in

:33:25. > :33:32.London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building

:33:33. > :33:35.the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and

:33:36. > :33:38.sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity but

:33:39. > :33:44.there is another problem before that. That is around transparency

:33:45. > :33:48.about land options. There is agricultural land that

:33:49. > :33:54.house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.

:33:55. > :34:00.Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the

:34:01. > :34:05.south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most

:34:06. > :34:09.reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to

:34:10. > :34:16.force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to

:34:17. > :34:24.grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we

:34:25. > :34:26.want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they

:34:27. > :34:33.are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes but

:34:34. > :34:37.they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do

:34:38. > :34:40.not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with

:34:41. > :34:45.the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at

:34:46. > :34:48.?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is

:34:49. > :34:54.blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national

:34:55. > :35:01.interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot

:35:02. > :35:07.mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new

:35:08. > :35:10.homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be

:35:11. > :35:16.built, and in areas like Oxford Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree

:35:17. > :35:38.with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served

:35:39. > :35:43.with Michael Lyons? The national will put the five new towns? We have

:35:44. > :35:45.asked him to look at how we can incentivise local authorities to

:35:46. > :35:51.come forward with sites for new towns. You cannot tell us where they

:35:52. > :35:55.are going to be? I cannot. We will have to wait for him. When you look

:35:56. > :36:01.at the historic figures overall, not at the moment, Private Housing

:36:02. > :36:03.building is only just beginning to recover, but it has been pretty

:36:04. > :36:06.steady for a while. The big steady for a while. The big

:36:07. > :36:10.difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs

:36:11. > :36:14.Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government,

:36:15. > :36:19.we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour

:36:20. > :36:25.government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing

:36:26. > :36:32.stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour

:36:33. > :36:35.government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on

:36:36. > :36:40.this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We

:36:41. > :36:45.want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you

:36:46. > :36:49.the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the

:36:50. > :36:55.next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern

:36:56. > :36:57.programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because

:36:58. > :37:06.there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got

:37:07. > :37:13.there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes

:37:14. > :37:16.in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday

:37:17. > :37:19.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week

:37:20. > :37:35.ahead with our political Hello once again from the Midlands.

:37:36. > :37:40.I'm Patrick Burns. And we're joined today by two of our eminently

:37:41. > :37:44.'upwardly`mobile' women politicians. Jill Seymour is a racing certainty

:37:45. > :37:49.to be elected an MEP in May's European Elections. She's top of

:37:50. > :37:54.UKIP's West Midlands candidates list. And Emma Reynolds, Labour MP

:37:55. > :38:00.for Wolverhampton North East, is one of the Guardian newspaper's "rising

:38:01. > :38:07.stars of 2014". As shadow housing minister, she wants to build five

:38:08. > :38:13.new towns to help meet demand. Welcome. And only last week in the

:38:14. > :38:16.Commons, Emma accused the Government of building fewer than half the

:38:17. > :38:19.number of homes needed to meet that demand here in our part of the

:38:20. > :38:23.country. She warned that home ownership was becoming harder for

:38:24. > :38:25.young people and families on low and middle incomes. Fears of a

:38:26. > :38:28.'house`price bubble' are underlined by figures from the Nationwide

:38:29. > :38:34.Building Society, showing prices up 6.2% over the past year here. In

:38:35. > :38:39.Birmingham they're up by 10% year`on`year. Separate findings by

:38:40. > :38:43.Warwick Business School indicate a 72% risk of a bubble in the west

:38:44. > :38:51.Midlands. Ministers dismiss suggestions it's being caused by the

:38:52. > :38:54.Government's Help to Buy programme. Downing Street say almost 750 homes

:38:55. > :39:04.have been bought, and 6,000 others started, since the mortgage

:39:05. > :39:09.guarantee scheme came in. Emma, it is easy for you in opposition to

:39:10. > :39:15.promise new towns but look what happened last time your party was in

:39:16. > :39:19.government, a storm of protest and your band and the whole thing

:39:20. > :39:23.because nobody wants houses in their backyard. There has been a growing

:39:24. > :39:28.gap between demand and supply for decades now and as you have set

:39:29. > :39:33.out, I said in Parliament we are not building half the number of homes we

:39:34. > :39:39.need to keep up with demand. That is a real problem for young people and

:39:40. > :39:44.families. It used to take three years for the average family to save

:39:45. > :39:50.for a deposit now it takes 20 years or more. We need a real boost of

:39:51. > :39:56.supply and the problem with Help to Buy is it boosts demand and it could

:39:57. > :40:02.put up prices even further out of reach. As the chair of the parish

:40:03. > :40:06.council, how do you feel about a few thousand homes on your doorstep?

:40:07. > :40:12.We are concerned some of the councils are looking at greenfield

:40:13. > :40:16.sites, not just green belt sites and they are ignoring the public opinion

:40:17. > :40:20.and we are against them looking at that avenue.

:40:21. > :40:23.The past governments have never looked at some of these dying towns

:40:24. > :40:29.and cities where we could use commercial properties, where there

:40:30. > :40:32.is dead and empty top floors, a great opportunity to revitalise the

:40:33. > :40:38.towns and cities by building on those areas.

:40:39. > :40:43.And thinking about the countryside, the Conservative MP the Stratford

:40:44. > :40:46.said this issue could be the defining issue, the defining issue

:40:47. > :40:52.in the countryside in the next general election because of the

:40:53. > :40:54.demand by developers for space in rural areas.

:40:55. > :41:02.There are brown field sites in Wolverhampton that are places where

:41:03. > :41:05.house`builders are building homes, there are greenfield sites around

:41:06. > :41:08.the country which are suitable for housing and others which are not.

:41:09. > :41:17.There needs to be the consent from local people for the lands to be

:41:18. > :41:20.used. We shall see. Coming up: a city on the brink.

:41:21. > :41:22.Is Wolverhampton really going bust? And who's to blame: spendthrift

:41:23. > :41:24.Labour councillors? Or a 'slash`and`burn' Conservative`led

:41:25. > :41:31.Government? We'll have more on this later in the programme. With

:41:32. > :41:33.apologies to those of you watching in Gloucestershire in the South West

:41:34. > :41:36.constituency of the European Parliament, most Midlanders will

:41:37. > :41:40.soon be able to experience democracy on a truly grand scale; by electing

:41:41. > :41:47.seven MEPs, representing nearly six million people from Ross to Rugby;

:41:48. > :41:50.Kidsgrove to Kempsey. But will it be a 'breakthough

:41:51. > :41:53.moment' for the party battling to break`out of Europe? UKIP were

:41:54. > :41:55.further buoyed`up by the defection to their ranks of two Dudley

:41:56. > :41:59.Conservative councillors on Friday. Our Stoke political reporter Phil

:42:00. > :42:07.McCann has been gauging the mood on the streets.

:42:08. > :42:11.Meet Derrick Huckfield ` he's a rare breed ` one of only a handful of

:42:12. > :42:16.elected UKIP politicians in the Midlands. He's been a county

:42:17. > :42:20.councillor in Staffordshire for nearly five years ` he says the

:42:21. > :42:30.party is about much more than just the EU and immigration. We are going

:42:31. > :42:36.towards the computer room. He has put council cash into a computer

:42:37. > :42:42.room. The three main parties are very much the same. They come from

:42:43. > :42:48.the same educational background, the difference between them is slight.

:42:49. > :42:55.None of them can be trusted. They are all very similar in what they

:42:56. > :43:00.say they will do and do. It is difficult to tell one from another.

:43:01. > :43:06.People have started realising UKIP, by voting UKIP locally and

:43:07. > :43:09.nationally, they realise UKIP gets the job done. That is what the

:43:10. > :43:13.Labour Party and the Conservatives and Liberals are doing. He

:43:14. > :43:17.represents Silverdale in North Staffordshire ` formerly home to one

:43:18. > :43:20.of the area's biggest collieries ` traditionally a working class Labour

:43:21. > :43:23.heartland. Here in Staffordshire there are two UKIP councillors, and

:43:24. > :43:27.there are another two in Worcestershire, plus the two who've

:43:28. > :43:31.defected from the Tories in Dudley, but it's in Europe where they're

:43:32. > :43:34.hoping to make real headway in May. In 2009, the Conservatives topped

:43:35. > :43:38.the poll in the West Midlands with 28% of the vote ` securing two MEPs.

:43:39. > :43:42.UKIP also won two seats finishing second with 21%. Labour was third

:43:43. > :43:51.with 17% with the Lib Dems in fourth on 12% ` they got one MEP each. The

:43:52. > :43:55.case for an independent Britain is strong as ever. The party's come a

:43:56. > :43:59.long way since LSE professor Alan Sked set it up in 1991. It's been

:44:00. > :44:02.transformed fringe party to a potential front runner but it's

:44:03. > :44:10.founding father isn't happy with the way the party has grown. That should

:44:11. > :44:15.take over from UKIP because UKIP has become reactionary, it has gone

:44:16. > :44:18.native in Brussels. Perceived wisdom is that the

:44:19. > :44:26.Conservatives should be most worried by a UKIP surge. So are they? They

:44:27. > :44:29.are taking votes not from us but all parties. And I think it's a great

:44:30. > :44:32.pity because I don't think what they are promising if anything they can

:44:33. > :44:36.actually deliver. There is a complication for UKIP

:44:37. > :44:39.locally ` both of the MEPs elected last time have left the party. They

:44:40. > :44:41.also lost councillors in Staffordshire in last year's council

:44:42. > :44:45.elections, even though their share of the vote went up. Europe's voting

:44:46. > :44:55.system offers them hope ` will they deliver. A glimpse of our guest Jill

:44:56. > :44:59.Seymour at the end of Phil McCann's report. But before we throw this

:45:00. > :45:02.open to her and Emma, let's have an expert view. I've been talking to

:45:03. > :45:04.the global Chief Executive of the polling organisation YouGov. I began

:45:05. > :45:07.by asking Stephan Shakespeare, in our Westminster studio, how he

:45:08. > :45:09.interpreted the remarkably high ratings currently being enjoyed by

:45:10. > :45:15.UKIP. Well, anything can happen. We saw

:45:16. > :45:21.the last European elections, around this time UKIP was nowhere and then

:45:22. > :45:26.when the elections came, they did extremely well. So, they have this

:45:27. > :45:31.real quality of momentum as they get closer in a European election. We

:45:32. > :45:34.could possibly see UKIP being the winner of these elections. And even

:45:35. > :45:41.though that may not be terribly important in Westminster, directly,

:45:42. > :45:44.it could set of turmoil in the Conservative Party. In the last

:45:45. > :45:49.European elections, UKIP did pretty well in the West Midlands, two seats

:45:50. > :45:54.and in a general election they polled 6% and did not come close to

:45:55. > :46:00.winning seats but they are bullish about getting into Westminster at

:46:01. > :46:03.the next election. What are their chances? There is a possibility

:46:04. > :46:08.because they have counsellors and they have built up some support in

:46:09. > :46:10.particular parts of the country, there was a possibility they could

:46:11. > :46:17.break through in one or two places but the real effect will be to hurt

:46:18. > :46:24.the Conservatives in marginal seats. The UKIP do take support from all of

:46:25. > :46:30.the parties but disproportionately from the Conservatives. Given the

:46:31. > :46:34.Conservatives are already unable to make a majority in parliament, they

:46:35. > :46:38.need to win more seats, it looks quite bleak for them. How do you

:46:39. > :46:41.explain the support they are getting, we know there is a

:46:42. > :46:47.widespread sense of hostility to the EU, we know there is a

:46:48. > :46:51.disillusionment with the main Parliamentary parties, we saw that

:46:52. > :46:55.clearly in the report from Staffordshire so how exactly do you

:46:56. > :47:01.define where they get support? We know the single most important

:47:02. > :47:05.thing driving the UKIP vote is a worry about immigration but that's

:47:06. > :47:09.its self is part of a larger feeling of being left behind, left out and

:47:10. > :47:14.the Westminster politicians don't understand the concerns on the

:47:15. > :47:19.street or the ordinary people. This applies to all Westminster

:47:20. > :47:23.politicians. Nigel Farage gets his big support when his biggest cheers

:47:24. > :47:27.when he attacks the Westminster political scene. Not so much the

:47:28. > :47:32.Europe side, not even immigration, it is when he says they are in it

:47:33. > :47:37.for themselves we are different. As a leading figure in the polling

:47:38. > :47:41.industry, do you think these ratings are set in concrete or is there a

:47:42. > :47:44.certain amount of fluidity about the political scene?

:47:45. > :47:48.There is more fluidity than we have ever had.

:47:49. > :47:51.We are going into the euro elections and also the pre`general election

:47:52. > :47:57.cycle, we are not knowing what will happen. The reason for that is have

:47:58. > :48:00.an improving economy, we have a weak Labour Party suggesting it would be

:48:01. > :48:08.good for the Conservatives, at the same time we have lots of people

:48:09. > :48:13.feeling left out of being drawn towards UKIP. The consequence of

:48:14. > :48:18.that is that Labour could win possibly even win a majority with a

:48:19. > :48:23.relatively small increase in no vote, on the other hand the

:48:24. > :48:28.Conservatives if they can make the economy pay, they could also in fact

:48:29. > :48:32.increase their vote, both things are possible. Most pollsters feel this

:48:33. > :48:39.is the most fluid situation we have had in living memory.

:48:40. > :48:43.Jill, he expects UKIP to do well. They might win the European

:48:44. > :48:47.elections. Apps loony right. We will wipe the

:48:48. > :48:55.floor. Will cause a total political storm across government and the

:48:56. > :48:59.board. We will do well. He is also saying it is not at hearts about the

:49:00. > :49:04.European issue or though there is hostility out there but it is about

:49:05. > :49:08.this vague sense of disillusionment and the feeling the critical parties

:49:09. > :49:10.are out of touch with life on the ground.

:49:11. > :49:14.There is something we are doing right, we are listening and engaging

:49:15. > :49:19.with the public and the proof is in these by`elections we are doing, in

:49:20. > :49:28.the West Midlands we are getting 54%, we had one recently at 54% out

:49:29. > :49:32.of the Midlands. These are council by`elections.

:49:33. > :49:37.The public are listening to UKIP, not just on European issues, it is

:49:38. > :49:43.local issues as well. We are covering a cross`section. He

:49:44. > :49:48.also said, and, that Labour is weak and yet a week Labour Party could be

:49:49. > :49:51.propelled because of the UKIP factor.

:49:52. > :49:57.That is a sad indictment of your position.

:49:58. > :50:01.I disagree with that analysis. We are consistently ahead in the polls.

:50:02. > :50:07.Only a little bit! Five or 6%.

:50:08. > :50:11.In some cases more. We have set the political agenda for the last four

:50:12. > :50:16.months. Ed Miliband in his conference speech in September

:50:17. > :50:20.promised an energy price freeze, something people are worried about

:50:21. > :50:24.and set the framework from which all of the other parties and are

:50:25. > :50:28.scrambling to make some progress. That is the cost of living crisis

:50:29. > :50:35.affecting families and people across the country. As shadow European

:50:36. > :50:40.minister until recently yourself, there are genuine European issues,

:50:41. > :50:46.think about the eurozone, how it impacts on businesses like JCB and

:50:47. > :50:54.the truth is it will be drowned out, it will be about the domestic

:50:55. > :50:59.tooling and froing and Punch and Judy politics.

:51:00. > :51:02.It will depend what happens come May.

:51:03. > :51:07.It seems a long way away. Five months down attract. I, as you

:51:08. > :51:14.know, I am an unashamed pro`European, I think one of the

:51:15. > :51:18.reasons Jaguar Land Rover... It depends when polling is taken. When

:51:19. > :51:21.there is a conversation about Europe, the Prime Minister did a

:51:22. > :51:26.speech about Europe, one which I mostly disagreed with but the polls

:51:27. > :51:30.closed during that time and/or more people saying they wanted to stay in

:51:31. > :51:36.than leave the European Union. There will be a great risk to investment

:51:37. > :51:39.if we leave. That is the same rhetoric we have heard for a long

:51:40. > :51:46.time. People are no falls. Business tends

:51:47. > :51:49.to agree. Big business is talk that language

:51:50. > :51:53.but when you talk to smaller businesses they've had enough. I

:51:54. > :52:00.know that from going around the streets. People know what is going

:52:01. > :52:05.on. The general consensus is the public are `` they want their say.

:52:06. > :52:10.This referendum we have been pushing for, we know it will never happen.

:52:11. > :52:15.The Prime Minister says it will happen.

:52:16. > :52:24.We want to deliver, we can deliver. It will happen. In May, people have

:52:25. > :52:27.the opportunity to make their point. The European Elections are only part

:52:28. > :52:31.of the story of 2014 of course. Thursday 22nd May will also see

:52:32. > :52:33.polling in 18 of our local authorities. And there's an uncanny

:52:34. > :52:36.overlap between those elections, and our key Midlands marginal seats in

:52:37. > :52:41.the general election, less than a year after that.

:52:42. > :52:47.Dudley has a zoo, a castle and two Parliamentary targets. Dudley

:52:48. > :52:54.North's Labour majority of just 649 puts it high on the Conservatives

:52:55. > :52:58.hit list. In Dudley South Labour hope to overturn a Conservative

:52:59. > :53:00.majority of under 4,000. And our local Parliamentary marginals have

:53:01. > :53:05.been predominantly two`party affairs. Labour's top ten targets

:53:06. > :53:11.are all Tory`held apart from Liberal Democrat Birmingham Yardley. And the

:53:12. > :53:14.Conservatives' top ten are all currently Labour except for Liberal

:53:15. > :53:19.Democrat Solihull. These places just happen to feature among the 18

:53:20. > :53:21.councils holding elections in May. Except this time there's a

:53:22. > :53:24.gate`crasher, the Parliamentary parties Parliamentary party`pooper.

:53:25. > :53:34.So the bigger parties are fighting on separate fronts at the same time.

:53:35. > :53:40.UKIP are a party of disaffected voters. A lot of working`class

:53:41. > :53:44.Labour voters defected to UKIP, the immigration issue in particular and

:53:45. > :53:49.the state of the economy and living standards. Both parties stand to

:53:50. > :53:54.suffer in setting key areas. The parliamentary parties must fight on

:53:55. > :53:58.separate fronts at the same time. If we are going to beat UKIP in Europe

:53:59. > :54:02.we have do prove what we have achieved in Europe, we have to prove

:54:03. > :54:06.our commitment to delivering a referendum, a real say for the

:54:07. > :54:10.people in the West Midlands to decide their future in Europe. We

:54:11. > :54:13.are the only party delivering on that. The European elections are

:54:14. > :54:15.ones they do reasonably well in but they get nowhere in the general

:54:16. > :54:23.election. They cannot win any seats.

:54:24. > :54:27.And, Jill, he is right, you can do well in European elections but the

:54:28. > :54:32.evidence is a 6% share and you cannot win a seat in Westminster.

:54:33. > :54:37.That will not be the case. On May 22 when people vote for UKIP,

:54:38. > :54:44.they will believe us and keep the consistency. We are making big

:54:45. > :54:52.inroads now and... How many seats? I don't know, Patrick, I would not

:54:53. > :54:56.like to make a opinion on that but we are getting existing council is

:54:57. > :55:01.coming over to UKIP in their droves. We have quite a few things going on.

:55:02. > :55:07.You will be the first to find out but there is a lot going on. You

:55:08. > :55:09.have not kept or any peas in the West Midlands.

:55:10. > :55:17.Zero any peace. None of the UKIP NEPs.

:55:18. > :55:22.People change their minds. We are going to be strong and we are being

:55:23. > :55:26.strong. It will happen in the West Midlands. If you think of the

:55:27. > :55:33.marginals, it is an uphill fight. If you look at Dudley, and other

:55:34. > :55:38.examples, the Tory marginal seats are the majority 4000. There are

:55:39. > :55:46.lots of sleep like Dudley North with a small majority which are closer so

:55:47. > :55:48.far as the Tory target is concerned. People in Wolverhampton and across

:55:49. > :55:53.the region are disillusioned with this government.

:55:54. > :55:58.I think they are listening to what we are saying about an energy

:55:59. > :56:02.freeze, the cost of living, there is a lack of trust in politicians

:56:03. > :56:07.generally and I regret that and all of the politicians I work with,

:56:08. > :56:10.whichever party art in it with the right reasons. We are still

:56:11. > :56:16.suffering from the expenses scandal. We have a real chance in

:56:17. > :56:20.the West Midlands in Wolverhampton there was a marginal seat on your

:56:21. > :56:26.list which we can win back and in deadly and elsewhere. What if the

:56:27. > :56:34.economy starts coming right, your argument is going to start to weaken

:56:35. > :56:37.and jaw argument, Jill, about the government being disconnected,

:56:38. > :56:42.people will care less about that as they start offering better about

:56:43. > :56:46.their prospects. Look, the government wants to

:56:47. > :56:50.concentrate on that right statistics but what is clear, even if the

:56:51. > :56:53.economy has started to grow and we should welcome that, people are not

:56:54. > :56:57.feeling that. That is the problem. I totally

:56:58. > :57:03.agree, generate the consensus is people are suffering, the economy is

:57:04. > :57:06.bad, the energy prices are disgusting and it is putting people

:57:07. > :57:08.in poverty. It is not good.

:57:09. > :57:12.Now for our round`up of what's been happening in Midlands politics over

:57:13. > :57:15.the past week, in 60 seconds, it's brought to us today by our

:57:16. > :57:21.mid`morning presenter on BBC WM 95.6, Adrian Goldberg.

:57:22. > :57:25.There've been calls for the government to take over the

:57:26. > :57:29.privately run Oakwood jail near Wolverhampton after a riot. It's the

:57:30. > :57:32.latest in the series of disturbances.

:57:33. > :57:36.Picket lines never looked like this before! Lawyers in Birmingham joined

:57:37. > :57:41.a national walk`out to protest at cuts to legal aid.

:57:42. > :57:45.A state`owned Chinese firm says it's interested in investing in the rail

:57:46. > :57:49.projects linked to HS2 in the West Midlands. The China Railway Group

:57:50. > :57:52.has approached Birmingham City Council.

:57:53. > :57:57.The Chancellor visited Coleshill car parts maker Sertec to outline some

:57:58. > :58:02."hard truths" about the economy. The creation of four hundred jobs there

:58:03. > :58:06.helped sugar the pill. And Labour`run Wolverhampton City

:58:07. > :58:09.Council says it's on the brink of insolvency after being asked to find

:58:10. > :58:12.savings of one hundred and twenty three million pounds. One local MP

:58:13. > :58:17.says it's partly due to council overspending. Wolverhampton City

:58:18. > :58:22.Council have debts of ?500 million. The interest on the debt is ?25

:58:23. > :58:34.million a year. That is the saving the council are looking to do.

:58:35. > :58:37.He has got a point, this is a story over high spending Labour

:58:38. > :58:44.authorities mired in debts. I totally disagree with him.

:58:45. > :58:47.Central government have decided they want smaller local government so why

:58:48. > :58:54.did the Tories come clean and say they don't want many services at the

:58:55. > :58:58.local level, they have cut the government grants to Wolverhampton

:58:59. > :59:05.by 52%. Now they are trying to say if only the council collected

:59:06. > :59:09.council tax. But there is an overdependence on local services and

:59:10. > :59:13.the answer is to get the Jaguar Land Rover jobs...

:59:14. > :59:18.The Labour government was key to getting those jobs.

:59:19. > :59:20.What is the borrowing he is talking about?

:59:21. > :59:25.Borrowing is going into putting in place infrastructure that we need,

:59:26. > :59:29.the only reason Jaguar Land Rover came to Land Rover is because of the

:59:30. > :59:36.motorway link. We need to build roads.

:59:37. > :59:41.You are in local government and you are fiscally conservative so no

:59:42. > :59:46.blank cheque for Wolverhampton. We haven't got an endless pot of

:59:47. > :59:50.money across the country anyway. I would address the issue where some

:59:51. > :59:55.of these chief executives in many councils have high salaries and they

:59:56. > :59:58.are closing care homes and libraries in the community. They should hang

:59:59. > :00:01.their heads in shame. My thanks to Jill and Emma. Next

:00:02. > :00:04.week, Telford's Labour MP David Wright will be in BBC Radio

:00:05. > :00:07.Shropshire's Hot Seat. What with the debate over Accident and Emergency

:00:08. > :00:10.services, and the introduction of a Council Tax freeze by Telford and

:00:11. > :00:13.Wrekin's Labour Council, there'll be plenty to talk about from nine

:00:14. > :00:16.o'clock next Friday morning. And next Sunday, David Gregory`Kumar

:00:17. > :00:22.will be in this chair. This though is where we rejoin Andrew Neil.

:00:23. > :00:33.will not be revoked. And I wouldn't want it to go. Thank you, back to

:00:34. > :00:39.Andrew. Can David Cameron get his way on EU

:00:40. > :00:43.migration? Will he ever be able to satisfy his backbenchers on Europe?

:00:44. > :00:53.Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of PMQ 's? More questions for

:00:54. > :00:57.the week ahead. We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg

:00:58. > :01:02.from his constituency in Somerset. Welcome to the programme. You one of

:01:03. > :01:09.the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed this letter? Suddenly. Laws should

:01:10. > :01:17.be made by our democratically elected representatives, not from

:01:18. > :01:25.Brussels. How could Europe work with a pick and mix in which each

:01:26. > :01:31.national parliament can decide what Brussels can be in charge of? The

:01:32. > :01:34.European Union is a supernatural body that is there for the

:01:35. > :01:42.cooperation amongst member states to do things that they jointly want to

:01:43. > :01:44.do. It ought not be there to force -- to enforce uniform rules on

:01:45. > :01:47.countries that do not want to participate. It is the vision of

:01:48. > :01:53.Europe that people joined when we signed up to it and came in in 973.

:01:54. > :01:58.It has accreted powers to itself without having the support of the

:01:59. > :02:03.public of the member states. This is just a way of preparing the ground

:02:04. > :02:07.for you to get out of Europe altogether, isn't it? I do not big

:02:08. > :02:12.so. There is a role for an organisation that does some

:02:13. > :02:17.coordination and that has trade agreements within it, I do not think

:02:18. > :02:21.there is a role for a federal state. Europe seems to be dominating the. I

:02:22. > :02:26.remember your leader telling you not to bang on about Europe, your

:02:27. > :02:31.backbench colleagues seem to have ignored that. Would you like to

:02:32. > :02:39.restrict the flow of EU migrants to come to work in this country? Yes. I

:02:40. > :02:43.think we should have control of our own borders, so we can decide who we

:02:44. > :02:47.want to admit for the whole world. What we have at the moment is a

:02:48. > :02:52.restrictive control of people coming from anywhere other than the EU

:02:53. > :02:57.There is a big decrease in the number of New Zealanders who came in

:02:58. > :03:01.the last quarter for which figures are available, but a huge increase

:03:02. > :03:05.in people coming from the continent. Does it really make sense to stop

:03:06. > :03:09.our second cousins coming so that we can allow people freely to come from

:03:10. > :03:14.the continent? I do not think so, we need to have domestic control of our

:03:15. > :03:18.borders in the interests of the United Kingdom. There are still lots

:03:19. > :03:23.more people coming from the rest of the world than from the European

:03:24. > :03:30.Union. That has been changing. But there are still more. A lot more.

:03:31. > :03:36.The permanent residence coming from the European Union are extremely

:03:37. > :03:40.high. In the period when the Labour Party was in charge, we had to put 5

:03:41. > :03:45.million people coming here, of whom about 1 billion were from Poland. --

:03:46. > :03:53.we had 2.5 million people coming here. We have no control over them.

:03:54. > :03:58.Like the clock behind you, you are behind the times on these figures. I

:03:59. > :04:01.have stopped the clock for your benefit, because it was going to

:04:02. > :04:09.chime otherwise! I thought that might be distracting! Only a Tory

:04:10. > :04:20.backbencher could stop a clock! Helen, when you at this up, it is

:04:21. > :04:23.preparing to get out, is it not We have had this one bill about a

:04:24. > :04:28.referendum that seems to have tied us up in knots for months on end. If

:04:29. > :04:34.Parliament could scrutinise every piece of EU legislation, we would

:04:35. > :04:39.never get anything else done. It would be incredible. Even Chris

:04:40. > :04:46.Grayling said earlier that you can not have a national veto on anything

:04:47. > :04:50.that the EU proposes. I am surprised that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking

:04:51. > :04:55.about dismantling one of Margaret Thatcher's most important legacies,

:04:56. > :04:59.the creation of the single market, and the person sent there to dream

:05:00. > :05:03.it up under Margaret Thatcher said the only way you can run this

:05:04. > :05:08.sensibly is by not having national vetoes, because if you have that,

:05:09. > :05:12.guess what will happen? The French will impose lots of protectionist

:05:13. > :05:14.measures. It was Margaret Thatcher's idea that national

:05:15. > :05:22.parliaments should never veto. How could you fly in the face of the

:05:23. > :05:30.lady? Even the great lady makes mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg

:05:31. > :05:36.says even Margaret Thatcher makes mistakes! No wonder the clock has

:05:37. > :05:42.stopped! Even be near divine Margaret made a mistake! But on the

:05:43. > :05:48.single market, it has been used as an excuse for massive origination of

:05:49. > :05:51.domestic affairs. We should be interested in free trade in Europe

:05:52. > :05:56.and allowing people to export and import freely, not to have uniform

:05:57. > :06:02.regulations, as per the single market, because what that allows is

:06:03. > :06:05.thought unelected bureaucrats to determine the regular vision. We

:06:06. > :06:09.want the British people to decide the rules for themselves. If this

:06:10. > :06:13.makes the single market not work, that is not the problem, because we

:06:14. > :06:20.can still have free trade, which is more important. If David Cameron is

:06:21. > :06:26.watching this, I am sure he is, it will be nice for you to come on and

:06:27. > :06:32.give us an interview, he must be worried. He is beginning to think, I

:06:33. > :06:38.am losing control. It is a clever letter, the tone is ingratiating and

:06:39. > :06:41.pleasant, every time, you have stood up to Brussels, you have achieved

:06:42. > :06:47.something, but the content is dramatic. If you want Parliament to

:06:48. > :06:50.have a veto, you want to leave the EU, because the definition is

:06:51. > :06:55.accepting the primacy of European law. The MPs should be clear about

:06:56. > :06:59.that. It is almost a year since the Europe speech in which David Cameron

:07:00. > :07:04.committed to the referendum. The political objective was to put that

:07:05. > :07:09.issue to bed until the next election. It has failed. David

:07:10. > :07:13.Cameron is going to have to pull off a major miracle in any

:07:14. > :07:22.renegotiations to satisfy all of this. Yes, it makes me think how

:07:23. > :07:25.much luckier he has been in coalition with the Liberal

:07:26. > :07:27.Democrats, because there is a bit of the Tory party that is

:07:28. > :07:33.irreconcilable to what he wants to do. The Conservative MPs are making

:07:34. > :07:37.these demands just as David Cameron is seeing the debate goes his way in

:07:38. > :07:42.Europe. Angela Merkel has looked over the cliff and said, do I want

:07:43. > :07:48.the UK out? No, they are a counterbalance to France. France one

:07:49. > :07:52.the UK to leave, but they do not, because they do not want to lose the

:07:53. > :07:57.only realistic military power Tom other than themselves. Just when the

:07:58. > :08:04.debate is going David Cameron's way, Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out.

:08:05. > :08:09.Let me move on to another subject. That is nonsense. The debate is not

:08:10. > :08:14.beginning to go David Cameron's way. We are having before us on Monday a

:08:15. > :08:20.bill about European citizenship and spending British taxpayers money so

:08:21. > :08:23.that Europe can go and say we are all EU citizens, but we signed up to

:08:24. > :08:29.being a part of a multinational organisation. The spin that it is

:08:30. > :08:33.going the way of the leader of a political party is one that has been

:08:34. > :08:39.used before, it was said of John Major, it was untrue then and it is

:08:40. > :08:44.now. It is, for the continuing deeper integration of the European

:08:45. > :08:51.Union. I want to ask a quick question. Chris Grayling said to us

:08:52. > :08:56.that the Tories would devise a way in which the British Supreme Court

:08:57. > :08:59.would be supreme in the proper meaning of that, but we could still

:09:00. > :09:07.be within the European Court of Human Rights. Can that circle be

:09:08. > :09:12.squared? I have no idea, the Lord Chancellor is an able man, and I am

:09:13. > :09:18.sure he is good at squaring circles. I am not worried about whether we

:09:19. > :09:25.remain in the convention or not PMQ 's, we saw a bit about this week,

:09:26. > :09:32.Paul Gorgons had died, so the house was more subdued, but he wants a

:09:33. > :09:34.more subdued and serious prime ministers questions. Let's remind

:09:35. > :09:40.ourselves what it was like until now.

:09:41. > :09:43.What is clear is that he is floundering around and he has no

:09:44. > :09:50.answer to the Labour Party's energy price freeze. The difference is

:09:51. > :09:54.John Major is a good man, the Right Honourable gentleman is acting like

:09:55. > :09:59.a conman. Across the medical profession, they say there is a

:10:00. > :10:04.crisis in accident and emergency, and we have a Prime Minister saying,

:10:05. > :10:08.crisis, what crisis? How out of touch can hate the? You do not need

:10:09. > :10:18.it to be Christmas to know when you are sitting next to a turkey.

:10:19. > :10:21.It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of prime

:10:22. > :10:26.ministers questions? Is he right to do so? The important point is this

:10:27. > :10:32.was a special prime ministers questions, because everybody was

:10:33. > :10:36.really sad and by the death of Paul Goggins and in the country, the

:10:37. > :10:40.legacy of the floods. That was the first question that Ed Miliband

:10:41. > :10:45.asked about, so that cast a pall over proceedings. When it suits him,

:10:46. > :10:49.Ed Miliband would like to take a more statesman-like stance, but will

:10:50. > :10:54.it last? That is how David Cameron started. His first prime ministers

:10:55. > :10:59.questions, he said to Tony Blair, I would like to support you on

:11:00. > :11:04.education, and he did in a vote which meant Tony Blair could see off

:11:05. > :11:10.a naughty operation from Gordon Brown. But it did not last, they are

:11:11. > :11:15.parties with different visions. Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to

:11:16. > :11:20.see it more subdued? I like a bit of Punch and Judy. You need to have

:11:21. > :11:25.fierce debate and people putting their views passionately, it is

:11:26. > :11:30.excellent. I am not good at it, I sit there quite quietly, but it is

:11:31. > :11:36.great fun, very exciting, and it is the most watched bit of the House of

:11:37. > :11:40.Commons each week. If it got as dull as ditchwater, nobody would pay

:11:41. > :11:46.attention. Three cheers for Punch and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to

:11:47. > :11:51.make a major speech on the economy this week. You can now define the

:11:52. > :11:56.general approach. We had it from Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over

:11:57. > :12:02.energy prices, this market is bust, the market is not working properly,

:12:03. > :12:07.and that will therefore justify substantial government intervention.

:12:08. > :12:12.Intervention which does not necessarily cost money. It is the

:12:13. > :12:15.deletion and reorganising industries. It constitutes an answer

:12:16. > :12:17.to the question which has been hounding him, what is the point of

:12:18. > :12:21.the Labour Party when there is no money left? He says, you do not

:12:22. > :12:26.spend a huge amount fiscally, but you arrange markets to achieve

:12:27. > :12:32.socially just outcomes without expenditure. It is quite serious

:12:33. > :12:37.stance. I am not sure it will survive the rigours of an election

:12:38. > :12:41.campaign, but it is an answer. Is that an approach, to use broken

:12:42. > :12:47.markets, to justify substantial state intervention? Yes, and the

:12:48. > :12:50.other big plank is infrastructure spending. The Lib Dems would not be

:12:51. > :12:56.against capital investment for info structure will stop Emma Reynolds

:12:57. > :12:59.talking about house-building, the idea of pumping money into the

:13:00. > :13:04.economy through infrastructure is something that the Labour Party will

:13:05. > :13:10.look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once thought Somerset should have its own

:13:11. > :13:16.time zone, and today, you have delivered on that promise! Live on

:13:17. > :13:22.the Sunday Politics! I try to deliver on my promises!

:13:23. > :13:27.That is all for today, the Daily Politics is on BBC Two every day

:13:28. > :13:34.this week, just before lunch. I aren't back next Sunday here on BBC

:13:35. > :13:39.One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.