:00:37. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:45. > :00:49.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:50. > :00:54.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:55. > :00:58.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:59. > :01:09.views of a Sunday Politics focus group.
:01:10. > :01:15.and this afternoon will be drier and brighter. Highs of seven Celsius.
:01:16. > :01:23.MP. And we'll get the verdict on Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's
:01:24. > :01:25.plunge from the highboard from who else but the Minister for
:01:26. > :01:28.Portsmouth. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:29. > :01:34.the brightest political panel in the business: and in London, Boris
:01:35. > :01:37.Johnson has pledged to recruit more volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:38. > :01:48.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:49. > :01:51.First this morning, Nick Clegg is considering a fresh investigation
:01:52. > :02:00.into the behaviour of the party s former chief executive, Lord
:02:01. > :02:03.Rennard. Last week, a lawyer appointed by the party decided that
:02:04. > :02:06.no action could be taken against him, but that women who had accused
:02:07. > :02:08.the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate behaviour "were broadly credible".
:02:09. > :02:19.More than 100 party activists are demanding an apology. Chris Rennard
:02:20. > :02:22.say he's nothing to apologise for and the party whip must be returned
:02:23. > :02:27.to him. Helen, this is not going away. It is turning into a crisis
:02:28. > :02:36.for the Lib Dems? They have only got seven female MPs. There is no female
:02:37. > :02:39.Cabinet Minister. There is a reasonable chance that after the
:02:40. > :02:42.next election there might in no female Liberal Democrat MPs at all.
:02:43. > :02:49.A scandal like this will not encourage women into the party. Have
:02:50. > :02:52.they made a complete mess of it You feel for Nick Clegg, because he
:02:53. > :02:58.launched an utterly rigorous process. He called in a QC. The QC
:02:59. > :03:05.looked at it and decided that the evidence did not meet the burden of
:03:06. > :03:08.proof in a criminal trial. But clearly he felt that the evidence
:03:09. > :03:17.from these women was very credible and serious. He said it was broadly
:03:18. > :03:20.credible. Clearly it was serious. Rennard is being advised by Lord
:03:21. > :03:25.Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat peer, who is giving purely legal
:03:26. > :03:31.advice. He is saying it has not reached that edge-mac, so do not
:03:32. > :03:36.apologise. This is a political issue, so the agony continues. Nick
:03:37. > :03:41.Clegg was hoping to keep the party whip withdrawn. But they did not
:03:42. > :03:47.launch an enquiry, the Webster enquired it was not an enquiry, it
:03:48. > :03:52.was a legal opinion. You're right, it was an internal opinion. The Lib
:03:53. > :03:57.Dems distinguished themselves from the other two parties not with
:03:58. > :04:00.policy, but with ethics. They presented themselves as being
:04:01. > :04:04.cleaner, and in possession of more Robert Jay than Labour and the
:04:05. > :04:18.Conservatives. That will be harder to do now. -- more probity. There
:04:19. > :04:22.are a Lib Dem peers that are more relaxed about taking him back and
:04:23. > :04:28.letting him pick up the party whip. That is the problem. There is a
:04:29. > :04:32.generational issue. The older Lib Dems in the House of Lords, the kind
:04:33. > :04:37.of thing, he did not do anything that wrong. The younger activists
:04:38. > :04:43.and those outside the House of Lords, they think it is a pollen.
:04:44. > :04:48.Yes, there is definitely a sort of what you are complaining about sort
:04:49. > :04:54.of thing. That is symptomatic of a cultural difference. The report last
:04:55. > :04:58.year found that they tried to manage the allegations. They did not do
:04:59. > :05:03.what any company would do if there was an allegation of sexual
:05:04. > :05:08.harassment. If there had not in the by-election in Eastleigh, this story
:05:09. > :05:13.may not have got the attention it did. Channel four news are the one
:05:14. > :05:18.that really drove this. Without their reporting, this might not have
:05:19. > :05:21.come out. It is not going to go away, because the issue of whether
:05:22. > :05:30.he gets the party whip back will come week. -- will come up this
:05:31. > :05:34.week. So it's not been a great week for
:05:35. > :05:37.the Liberal Democrats and none of this will help public perceptions of
:05:38. > :05:40.a party already struggling in the polls. In a moment, I'll be talking
:05:41. > :05:42.to the second most senior Liberal Democrat in the land, Danny
:05:43. > :05:45.Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went to Glasgow to find out what voters
:05:46. > :05:48.there made of the party. Let's put the Lib Dems under the
:05:49. > :05:51.microscope in Glasgow. We have recruited some Glaswegians who have
:05:52. > :05:57.voted for them, and some who have not. Hello, John. Let's get started.
:05:58. > :05:59.I will be watching them through the one-way mirror, along with the
:06:00. > :06:02.former Liberal Democrat MP John Barrett. Let's get to the heart of
:06:03. > :06:06.the matter straightaway. If the Lib Dems were a biscuit, what would they
:06:07. > :06:13.be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the outside but soft in the middle. They
:06:14. > :06:20.give in. There is no strength of character there. They just give in
:06:21. > :06:30.to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit bland and boring. Melts and crumbles
:06:31. > :06:33.under any sort of heat and pressure. Morrison's own brand of biscuit not
:06:34. > :06:36.top of the range like Marks Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose.
:06:37. > :06:46.A custard cream, sandwiched between David Cameron and the Tories. I
:06:47. > :06:49.think they were concerned that they had one exterior, but something else
:06:50. > :06:53.was really inside. They did not find it too definitive, too clear, too
:06:54. > :07:01.concise, too tasty, too appealing. Which means? It is a worry. If that
:07:02. > :07:07.is their gut reaction, literally, let's find out what is behind it.
:07:08. > :07:11.The context of them being stuck between a rock and a hard place for
:07:12. > :07:17.them as a party, I feel slightly sorry for them. I think people who
:07:18. > :07:22.voted for them will think they are victims as well, being sold down the
:07:23. > :07:26.river by going to the coalition I think the ones, particularly student
:07:27. > :07:32.fees, that was an important one to a lot of people. People felt cheated.
:07:33. > :07:36.I agree. Just going back on that, so publicly and openly, it makes you
:07:37. > :07:44.think, well, what do they stand for? It is trust. Harsh. But our group is
:07:45. > :07:48.feeling quite upbeat about the state of the economy. What have the Lib
:07:49. > :07:55.Dems contributed to that? I am not quite sure. It is George Osborne, a
:07:56. > :08:01.Conservative, who is the Chancellor, so it is mostly down to him. The
:08:02. > :08:04.Liberal Democrats are mostly on their coat tails, if you know what I
:08:05. > :08:08.mean. Have the Lib Dems done anything, anyone? I think the
:08:09. > :08:12.Liberal Democrats were responsible for increasing the tax allowance,
:08:13. > :08:17.?10,000 for next year. I think they have played a major role in that.
:08:18. > :08:24.Yes. I am glad somebody noticed that. We will have helped everyone
:08:25. > :08:32.who is receiving a salary, and it is interesting that nobody has
:08:33. > :08:42.mentioned that. Now, let's talk about personalities. Everyone knows
:08:43. > :08:46.him, but what about say, this guy? Alexander. Danny, they got it
:08:47. > :08:50.straightaway. I actually quite like him. I think he talks very clearly
:08:51. > :08:57.and it is easy to understand what he says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy
:08:58. > :09:00.is popular as well. He is very charismatic and it is through him
:09:01. > :09:07.that I voted Liberal the last few times. But who is this? I recognise
:09:08. > :09:10.him but I cannot tell you his name. That is the party's leader in
:09:11. > :09:12.Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the party's role in the upcoming
:09:13. > :09:16.referendum on independence draws a blank as well. It does not feel like
:09:17. > :09:35.they have featured, it is SNP and Labour and Conservative. They are
:09:36. > :09:37.last in a four horse race. We have been talking about the biggest issue
:09:38. > :09:41.in Scottish politics, independence and the referendum and the Lib Dems
:09:42. > :09:44.are nowhere. They are not mentioned and they seem to think it is all
:09:45. > :09:48.about Labour and the SNP. The Lib Dems are part of the Better Together
:09:49. > :09:51.campaign and we are being drowned out among that. Looking to the
:09:52. > :09:57.future, what messages do voters have for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do
:09:58. > :10:03.not go back on your policies or your word. Be strong and decisive. If you
:10:04. > :10:10.will pardon the expression, man up. DIY, do it yourself. Do not award
:10:11. > :10:18.bankers and other people for failure. Stand up. Be your own
:10:19. > :10:21.person, party. If that focus group represented the whole country, what
:10:22. > :10:26.would the result for the Lib Dems be at 2015 in the election? If they get
:10:27. > :10:32.the message across between now and then, the result could be OK. If
:10:33. > :10:36.they do not get the message across, the result could be disaster. Maybe
:10:37. > :10:42.they would do a lot better on their own. I do not think you are seeing
:10:43. > :10:46.the true Lib Dems because they are in the coalition. They maybe deserve
:10:47. > :10:49.another chance. Crucially for the Lib Dems, that means there is some
:10:50. > :10:59.hope, but there is also plenty of anger, some disappoint, and a bit of
:11:00. > :11:02.bafflement as well. And watching that with me, senior
:11:03. > :11:06.Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander
:11:07. > :11:11.Welcome to the programme. One of the things that comes through from the
:11:12. > :11:16.focus group is that if there is any credit around for the economic
:11:17. > :11:21.recovery, it is the Tories that are getting it, and you are not? What
:11:22. > :11:25.can you do about that? The first thing to say is that the economy
:11:26. > :11:30.would not be recovering if it was not for the Liberal Democrats. If it
:11:31. > :11:34.was not for our decision right beginning in 2010 to form a strong,
:11:35. > :11:37.stable coalition government that to deal with the problems, we would
:11:38. > :11:44.still be in the mess that Labour left us with. Why are you not
:11:45. > :11:51.getting the credit? That was one focus group. It was interesting to
:11:52. > :11:55.hear opinions. We have to work very hard to get across the message that
:11:56. > :11:59.the economy would not be recovering without the Liberal Democrats.
:12:00. > :12:01.People would not be seeing the largest income tax cuts for a
:12:02. > :12:07.generation without the Liberal Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold
:12:08. > :12:11.that one of the people referred to is coming into peoples pay packets
:12:12. > :12:20.this year. Lots of people recognise that. There was the one person in
:12:21. > :12:23.the focus groups. This is your measure of success, raising the
:12:24. > :12:28.people at which people pay income tax. But most of the voters do not
:12:29. > :12:33.even give you credit for that. The role that we haven't British
:12:34. > :12:37.politics as a party, is that we are the only party that can be trusted
:12:38. > :12:43.to deliver a fair society and a strong economy. People know they
:12:44. > :12:47.cannot trust the Labour Party. We saw it again from Ed Miliband this
:12:48. > :12:56.morning. You cannot trust the Labour Party with the nation's finances. It
:12:57. > :13:01.may well be your policy, the income tax threshold, but it is the Tories
:13:02. > :13:05.that are getting the credit? I do not think that is true. I have spent
:13:06. > :13:09.lots of time meeting photos and lots of people recognise that if it was
:13:10. > :13:13.not for the Liberal Democrats, people would not be seeing those tax
:13:14. > :13:18.cuts. We are helping disadvantaged children in schools. It is right
:13:19. > :13:23.that we have to work very hard between now and polling day to do
:13:24. > :13:27.several things, to make sure that we secure the recovery, there can be no
:13:28. > :13:32.complacency. The economic recovery is in its early stages and we need
:13:33. > :13:36.to make sure it is sustainable. We need to make sure the benefits of
:13:37. > :13:40.the recovery are shared out people who have made sacrifices, people on
:13:41. > :13:47.low pay, people who have seen their savings are eroded. The Tories have
:13:48. > :13:51.now hijacked another Lib Dem policy, another big hike in the
:13:52. > :13:56.minimum wage. You spoke about the need to make sure that people on low
:13:57. > :14:01.pay benefit from the recovery, a big hike in the minimum wage. Did the
:14:02. > :14:06.Chancellor consulting on this? We have been talking about it for some
:14:07. > :14:12.time. Vince Cable asked the low pay commission for advice on this. Why
:14:13. > :14:17.did Vince Cable not make this announcement, why was it the
:14:18. > :14:20.Chancellor? Let me say a few other things about this. If we are going
:14:21. > :14:25.to secure the recovery, this year we have to make sure that businesses
:14:26. > :14:29.start investing. We have got to get Roddick typically rising. An
:14:30. > :14:34.increase in the minimum wage is something that needs to follow that.
:14:35. > :14:37.We will not do it unless the low pay commission adviser as it is
:14:38. > :14:43.important for the economy at this stage. Did you know the Chancellor
:14:44. > :14:46.was coming out with that statement? I did not know he was going to say
:14:47. > :14:52.something on that particular day. We have worked together on it in the
:14:53. > :14:57.tragedy to see what the economic impact would be, and to emphasise
:14:58. > :15:03.that it is the commission, which has credibility with business, trade
:15:04. > :15:08.unions and government. It must not be a politically motivated increase.
:15:09. > :15:12.So you did not know, and Vince Cable, and it is properly a matter
:15:13. > :15:21.for him as the Business Secretary, he did not make the announcement? I
:15:22. > :15:26.don't think that's right. I don t clear every word I say with him I
:15:27. > :15:35.don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before
:15:36. > :15:41.it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We
:15:42. > :15:46.were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing
:15:47. > :15:51.the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been
:15:52. > :15:59.lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty
:16:00. > :16:04.way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they
:16:05. > :16:10.don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are
:16:11. > :16:14.there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,
:16:15. > :16:19.our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven
:16:20. > :16:23.you for ratting on tuition fees and that was a broken promise that
:16:24. > :16:29.didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition
:16:30. > :16:38.fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought
:16:39. > :16:43.up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we
:16:44. > :16:48.delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't
:16:49. > :16:56.forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut
:16:57. > :17:03.income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting
:17:04. > :17:07.money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible
:17:08. > :17:12.because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the
:17:13. > :17:18.Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through
:17:19. > :17:22.looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made
:17:23. > :17:29.sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree
:17:30. > :17:32.to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest
:17:33. > :17:41.in this country over the next 1 months. Speaking of Scotland, the
:17:42. > :17:45.Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for
:17:46. > :17:52.the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish
:17:53. > :17:58.leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with
:17:59. > :18:05.Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.
:18:06. > :18:10.If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial
:18:11. > :18:17.position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the
:18:18. > :18:22.rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a
:18:23. > :18:26.disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the
:18:27. > :18:30.Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the
:18:31. > :18:37.national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a
:18:38. > :18:40.coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the
:18:41. > :18:47.national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting
:18:48. > :18:53.the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now
:18:54. > :18:59.seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We
:19:00. > :19:05.will see what happens in the 20 5 election. I think we have a record
:19:06. > :19:09.to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up
:19:10. > :19:13.the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the
:19:14. > :19:19.Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does
:19:20. > :19:23.so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic
:19:24. > :19:27.recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government
:19:28. > :19:33.or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust
:19:34. > :19:36.with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European
:19:37. > :19:40.Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this
:19:41. > :19:45.country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the
:19:46. > :19:51.UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British
:19:52. > :19:55.government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:56. > :19:59.be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee
:20:00. > :20:05.the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them
:20:06. > :20:11.down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on
:20:12. > :20:16.to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every
:20:17. > :20:26.month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this
:20:27. > :20:33.point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the
:20:34. > :20:38.guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was
:20:39. > :20:44.no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was
:20:45. > :20:50.to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in
:20:51. > :20:53.what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for
:20:54. > :20:58.separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is
:20:59. > :21:01.on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher
:21:02. > :21:05.interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question
:21:06. > :21:10.on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There
:21:11. > :21:16.were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.
:21:17. > :21:21.Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where
:21:22. > :21:26.you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable
:21:27. > :21:33.reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their
:21:34. > :21:39.salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I
:21:40. > :21:45.would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we
:21:46. > :21:54.have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions. .
:21:55. > :22:04.I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there
:22:05. > :22:06.can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though
:22:07. > :22:12.ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its
:22:13. > :22:18.balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get
:22:19. > :22:27.twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different
:22:28. > :22:32.position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS
:22:33. > :22:36.hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at
:22:37. > :22:40.what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could
:22:41. > :22:44.be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a
:22:45. > :22:51.bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS
:22:52. > :22:57.has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris
:22:58. > :23:03.Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies
:23:04. > :23:08.every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this
:23:09. > :23:17.as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair
:23:18. > :23:21.Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what
:23:22. > :23:26.happened to a criminal standard that there is clear there has been
:23:27. > :23:32.considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that
:23:33. > :23:40.and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has
:23:41. > :23:46.been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the
:23:47. > :23:50.Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the
:23:51. > :23:55.Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the
:23:56. > :24:00.disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly We
:24:01. > :24:04.are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of
:24:05. > :24:09.Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of
:24:10. > :24:14.complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.
:24:15. > :24:17.The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what
:24:18. > :24:24.action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We
:24:25. > :24:30.as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to
:24:31. > :24:37.change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told
:24:38. > :24:41.that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House
:24:42. > :24:46.of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and
:24:47. > :24:54.welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord
:24:55. > :25:01.Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and
:25:02. > :25:08.welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to
:25:09. > :25:12.deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of
:25:13. > :25:18.apology is totally unacceptable and therefore we have to take steps if
:25:19. > :25:23.that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard
:25:24. > :25:30.should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not
:25:31. > :25:38.forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the
:25:39. > :25:44.end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I
:25:45. > :25:51.hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override
:25:52. > :26:01.Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The
:26:02. > :26:07.failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the
:26:08. > :26:19.stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is
:26:20. > :26:28.totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord
:26:29. > :26:35.Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a
:26:36. > :26:39.ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC
:26:40. > :26:43.who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has
:26:44. > :26:48.followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the
:26:49. > :26:53.standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence
:26:54. > :27:01.he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and
:27:02. > :27:06.responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here
:27:07. > :27:18.is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows
:27:19. > :27:23.there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for
:27:24. > :27:28.something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished
:27:29. > :27:32.report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should
:27:33. > :27:35.apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the
:27:36. > :27:41.Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by
:27:42. > :27:47.the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an
:27:48. > :27:53.inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he
:27:54. > :27:59.opens himself to civil lawsuits He says he is not going to do it. As a
:28:00. > :28:05.Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,
:28:06. > :28:10.you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if
:28:11. > :28:16.there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported
:28:17. > :28:19.Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be
:28:20. > :28:28.made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there
:28:29. > :28:37.now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic
:28:38. > :28:45.things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper
:28:46. > :28:49.inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper
:28:50. > :28:53.report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from
:28:54. > :28:59.this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris
:29:00. > :29:10.Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits
:29:11. > :29:16.are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be
:29:17. > :29:22.advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough
:29:23. > :29:40.enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the
:29:41. > :29:44.answer to that. Generally governments are a bit
:29:45. > :29:47.rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite
:29:48. > :29:50.achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the
:29:51. > :29:52.US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient
:29:53. > :29:56.at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens
:29:57. > :29:57.came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their
:29:58. > :30:00.clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US
:30:01. > :30:02.by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency
:30:03. > :30:08.operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million
:30:09. > :30:14.mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,
:30:15. > :30:17.why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a
:30:18. > :30:22.series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the
:30:23. > :30:29.phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no
:30:30. > :30:38.more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British
:30:39. > :30:43.intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a
:30:44. > :30:46.debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we
:30:47. > :30:54.have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??
:30:55. > :30:57.new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother
:30:58. > :30:59.Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And
:31:00. > :31:10.Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.
:31:11. > :31:15.Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.
:31:16. > :31:18.President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have
:31:19. > :31:25.learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem
:31:26. > :31:30.to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go
:31:31. > :31:34.away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the
:31:35. > :31:38.Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry
:31:39. > :31:46.into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive
:31:47. > :31:51.technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the
:31:52. > :31:55.sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.
:31:56. > :32:00.Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on
:32:01. > :32:03.the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big
:32:04. > :32:08.debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can
:32:09. > :32:11.make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence
:32:12. > :32:16.that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years
:32:17. > :32:23.since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a
:32:24. > :32:30.fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime
:32:31. > :32:35.Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people
:32:36. > :32:42.and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a
:32:43. > :32:51.separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.
:32:52. > :32:55.Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think
:32:56. > :33:00.so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of
:33:01. > :33:03.intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust
:33:04. > :33:07.scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have
:33:08. > :33:14.Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and
:33:15. > :33:17.ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for
:33:18. > :33:23.improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,
:33:24. > :33:28.President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to
:33:29. > :33:32.collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for
:33:33. > :33:36.the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take
:33:37. > :33:41.the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk
:33:42. > :33:46.about the threat from terrorism it is all about travesty. There are
:33:47. > :33:51.several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are
:33:52. > :33:56.actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in
:33:57. > :34:00.the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have
:34:01. > :34:07.been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.
:34:08. > :34:13.Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It
:34:14. > :34:18.is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce
:34:19. > :34:23.that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two
:34:24. > :34:29.different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not
:34:30. > :34:33.get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if
:34:34. > :34:39.you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end
:34:40. > :34:43.not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the
:34:44. > :34:50.committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on
:34:51. > :34:54.7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look
:34:55. > :35:00.at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did
:35:01. > :35:05.you not have them on the radar? The agencies are between a rock and a
:35:06. > :35:10.hard race. They have got to be subject to oversight, but beanie
:35:11. > :35:17.capability. Did you know about Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular
:35:18. > :35:22.basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some
:35:23. > :35:29.of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did
:35:30. > :35:34.you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to
:35:35. > :35:40.get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:41. > :35:44.had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write
:35:45. > :35:50.letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet
:35:51. > :35:53.and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up
:35:54. > :36:00.with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal
:36:01. > :36:05.framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google
:36:06. > :36:11.and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.
:36:12. > :36:16.In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in
:36:17. > :36:20.the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are
:36:21. > :36:25.secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different
:36:26. > :36:29.door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence. We
:36:30. > :36:36.need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off. The
:36:37. > :36:41.final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and
:36:42. > :36:45.Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not
:36:46. > :36:48.the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for
:36:49. > :36:54.the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to
:36:55. > :36:59.have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to
:37:00. > :37:02.both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday
:37:03. > :37:05.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of
:37:06. > :37:32.the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!
:37:33. > :37:37.Hello, I'm David Gregory`Kumar. Welcome to the Sunday Politics in
:37:38. > :37:46.the Midlands. Today I am joined from the men `` by the men from the
:37:47. > :37:52.marginals. Ian Austin is high on the Tory target list for 2015. Marcus
:37:53. > :37:58.Jones is the MP for Nuneaton. His Warwickshire seat is the sort of
:37:59. > :38:05.place at Miliband must win. Welcome both. We begin in Warwickshire with
:38:06. > :38:08.full calls for a merger between the police force and neighbouring West
:38:09. > :38:13.Mercia. They are already engaged in what they call a strategic alliance,
:38:14. > :38:17.but the police Federation have upped the ante, saying that a merger could
:38:18. > :38:24.be the best way to protect front`line policing. We already work
:38:25. > :38:29.closely with Warwickshire Police, but we have not yet taken the final
:38:30. > :38:33.step to merge into a single force. Both Police and Crime Commissioner
:38:34. > :38:40.several that out during their terms in office, but after the next PCC
:38:41. > :38:45.elections that will have to become a serious consideration because it is
:38:46. > :38:50.an obvious way of saving money. He has a point. 400 posts have
:38:51. > :38:54.already gone across the two forces. If a merger means protecting the
:38:55. > :38:59.front line, surely you are in favour? Warwickshire Police force
:39:00. > :39:05.have done extremely well in recent years. They are working well with
:39:06. > :39:09.the West Mercia force. Savings are being made through that partnership.
:39:10. > :39:13.But the Police and Crime Commissioner in Warwickshire has
:39:14. > :39:18.clearly stated, as has the Commissioner of West Mercia, that
:39:19. > :39:22.they will not embark on a formal merger. I am supportive of that, and
:39:23. > :39:26.also supportive of finding further savings whilst protecting front`line
:39:27. > :39:29.policing. I do not want others to go down the same route as we did a few
:39:30. > :39:33.years ago under the Labour government when there was an
:39:34. > :39:38.enforced merger and a lot of money was wasted on a failed plan. Labour
:39:39. > :39:44.was all in favour of this. There was talk of a regional police force that
:39:45. > :39:47.the whole West Midlands. If you can make savings in the back office and
:39:48. > :39:50.get resources shifted to the front line. We would not have wasted money
:39:51. > :39:56.on Police Commissioners, which I think is an expensive experiment. I
:39:57. > :40:00.am not sure it is working. Rob Jones is doing a good job in the West
:40:01. > :40:04.Midlands. I am not convinced this has been a good idea, especially
:40:05. > :40:08.when experienced officers are being forced out of the drawer,
:40:09. > :40:16.recruitment is frozen and police stations are being closed in Dudley.
:40:17. > :40:20.I want to see polices `` police embedded in communities and close to
:40:21. > :40:28.the front line. Marcus Jones, there will be one comments team, one chief
:40:29. > :40:33.customer one Deputy police constable... The savings could be
:40:34. > :40:36.substantial. A lot of savings are being made through slimming down
:40:37. > :40:40.management structures and having joint management structures in
:40:41. > :40:44.relation to both forces. At the end of the day, those forces are still
:40:45. > :40:48.keeping their autonomy, still able to react to local needs. At the
:40:49. > :40:52.moment, they are doing exactly the right thing. They are doing the
:40:53. > :40:57.right thing and pushing ahead. Is this the right way to go? Sacking
:40:58. > :41:03.thousands of front line police officers whilst embarking on an
:41:04. > :41:06.expensive experiment is regarded as `` would be regarded as doing the
:41:07. > :41:11.right thing by most people in the West Midlands.
:41:12. > :41:15.Coming up, we are taking a trip down Benefits Street. What does the
:41:16. > :41:23.controversial Channel four programme say about Coalition driven welfare
:41:24. > :41:27.reform or the legacy of Labour? The extremism task force was set up
:41:28. > :41:30.in the wake of the killing of Drummer Lee Rigby in Woolwich last
:41:31. > :41:34.year. Its brief is to look at whether the government is doing
:41:35. > :41:38.enough to confront extremism and radicalisation. Last year, the West
:41:39. > :41:41.Midlands saw a number of high`profile plots involving
:41:42. > :41:47.so`called home`grown terrorists. Irving has been identified as a
:41:48. > :41:57.hotspot. `` Birmingham has been identified as a vulnerable hotspot.
:41:58. > :42:05.Violent extremists led works are using the internet, Twitter feeds
:42:06. > :42:10.and social networks to inspire and radicalised disaffected teenagers.
:42:11. > :42:20.The messages are seductive for young minds are seeking answers.
:42:21. > :42:23.I have been invited into this mosque in Birmingham. 8000 people come
:42:24. > :42:29.through these doors every week. They are worried about the unseen hands
:42:30. > :42:33.of extremists. I am worried and I don't want my children to become
:42:34. > :42:36.extremist. I do not want them to be hurt in an attack year by a far
:42:37. > :42:42.right, white extremist and neither do I want them to grow up and become
:42:43. > :42:49.Muslim fundamentalists. I want them to have access to reasoned and
:42:50. > :42:53.rational and reasonable people who can make them active and engaged
:42:54. > :43:01.citizens. These young scholars are the imam this `` the imams the
:43:02. > :43:07.religious leaders of the future. In the past they have from Pakistan or
:43:08. > :43:13.the Middle East. Now these home`grown young men I given the
:43:14. > :43:16.tools to challenge extremism. The majority of Muslims have coexisted
:43:17. > :43:22.with people of other faiths, in particular Jews and Christians,
:43:23. > :43:26.across the world, without any kind of antagonism. It seems that the
:43:27. > :43:33.modern climate today, we have a few black sheep here and there who are
:43:34. > :43:38.causing problems. A charity is sending tens of winter clothing to
:43:39. > :43:42.refugees in Syria. More than 100 young people have been volunteering
:43:43. > :43:46.in this warehouse, giving up their time and energy. But what do they
:43:47. > :43:53.think of which society? Do they feel valued and respected? I am proud to
:43:54. > :43:56.be British. If any big ask me, I am British Pakistani. Sometimes
:43:57. > :44:09.delicate US Muslims and think that you are the ones who did 9/11 Mac.
:44:10. > :44:12.That is the only bad thing. They want to help cut out the
:44:13. > :44:17.extremists. Our region does not want this. Can the government legislate
:44:18. > :44:20.against extremism? Foreign policy and unemployment can all be
:44:21. > :44:30.triggers, even people confidence that there `` their religion is not
:44:31. > :44:35.incompatible with being British. 99.99% of Muslims are against all
:44:36. > :44:41.and every form of extremism and radicalisation. The bad guys are the
:44:42. > :44:46.0.01% who tend to hide away from institutions. These are the good
:44:47. > :44:49.guys, proud to be British and Muslim, working for the greater
:44:50. > :44:58.good. But how to reach and, those who operate in the shadows? Remains
:44:59. > :45:01.the challenge for everyone. Ian Austin, you are on the Home
:45:02. > :45:05.Affairs Select Committee. We have to acknowledge that in the West
:45:06. > :45:10.Midlands, the most successful extremist attack last year was
:45:11. > :45:15.carried out a Ukrainian against the Muslim community. How can you
:45:16. > :45:21.legislate against that? Attacks like that are clearly very difficult to
:45:22. > :45:23.legislate against, but what I thought was interesting about that
:45:24. > :45:27.film, for me, that young woman summed it up and she said she was
:45:28. > :45:30.proud to be British, and that is what we need. We need a stronger
:45:31. > :45:36.sense of what it means to be British and a stronger sense of British
:45:37. > :45:39.patriotism, based not on not what you look like all they do or know
:45:40. > :45:44.where your parents are from, but in what you believe and what you
:45:45. > :45:48.contribute and the values of democracy and equality, freedom,
:45:49. > :45:56.fairness and tolerance, which define and unite Britain. Talking to the
:45:57. > :46:00.gym extremists, it is clear that the political debate did influence what
:46:01. > :46:09.they think. Do you think about these things when you voted for military
:46:10. > :46:13.action in Syria? We need to look at the wider picture here. We cannot
:46:14. > :46:17.tolerate extremism wherever it comes from in our communities will stop
:46:18. > :46:23.the political debate does make a difference. We have to give
:46:24. > :46:27.communities the ability to actually speak and allow their communities to
:46:28. > :46:31.speak against radicalism and extremism, and you could see on that
:46:32. > :46:35.clip that is happening and that is extremely important as we go
:46:36. > :46:39.forward, to make sure we don't see more of the terrible situations
:46:40. > :46:46.happening on our streets. We get a task force after every atrocity. Do
:46:47. > :46:49.they just give you something to do as politicians and make you look
:46:50. > :46:54.busy? Do they ever generate anything you really think has an impact?
:46:55. > :46:59.There are lessons to be learned from a situation. There are lessons to be
:47:00. > :47:07.learned, especially in terms of making sure that we tackle the
:47:08. > :47:12.radicalism in our universities, and that is being done as a direct
:47:13. > :47:18.result of things done over recent years, particularly the awful attack
:47:19. > :47:24.on the. If you look at some things that have been tried out, like
:47:25. > :47:27.Project Champion, but in CCTV into a predominantly Muslim area in
:47:28. > :47:30.Birmingham, that backfired. You can pick on individual schemes and say
:47:31. > :47:34.which ones work and which ones didn't, but the truth of this is
:47:35. > :47:41.that the vast majority of people in Britain have `` of all backgrounds,
:47:42. > :47:44.and as he said, 99.99% of Muslims are peace loving and committed to
:47:45. > :47:49.this country and want to see a better trip `` better Britain for
:47:50. > :47:53.them and their children. We have to unite people across all communities
:47:54. > :47:55.to work together and build a stronger and more united society in
:47:56. > :48:01.which we all tackle extremism wherever it is found. We believe
:48:02. > :48:06.that therefore now. Wang C. `` thank you very much.
:48:07. > :48:11.Benefits Street has caused plenty of outrage again this week. Liberal
:48:12. > :48:14.people on Twitter say that the programme demonises people who are
:48:15. > :48:17.living in a deprived part of Birmingham who are facing deep
:48:18. > :48:22.welfare cuts. But others say that the show reveals the truth about the
:48:23. > :48:26.legacy of a Labour welfare policy, people living largely on taxpayers?
:48:27. > :48:31.Cash. We look at the political fallout.
:48:32. > :48:36.Benefits Street has been accused of painting an unflattering picture of
:48:37. > :48:39.life in James Turner Street, a deprived part of Winton Green.
:48:40. > :48:44.Questions have been asked in Parliament. One MP asked the work
:48:45. > :48:48.and pensions secretary if he had seen it. If so, had he been struck
:48:49. > :48:51.by the number of people on that you managed to combine complaining about
:48:52. > :48:57.welfare reforms whilst being able to afford to buy copious notes of
:48:58. > :49:03.cigarettes, have a lot of tatties done and watch sky TV on the
:49:04. > :49:07.obligatory widescreen TV? In response, the site `` secretary of
:49:08. > :49:12.state set lifestyle lifestyles and show irritated working people and
:49:13. > :49:15.where one of the factors behind government reforms. Many people are
:49:16. > :49:21.shocked by what they see, but the reality is that the government backs
:49:22. > :49:28.our welfare package, to stop these abuses which date back to the last
:49:29. > :49:35.government, trapping people in benefit dependency. Outside the
:49:36. > :49:38.headquarters of the London production company which made the
:49:39. > :49:45.programme, a demonstration was organised by the trade union Unite.
:49:46. > :49:50.There is only 3% of the welfare spend which goes on unemployment
:49:51. > :49:53.benefit. They described the programme is a heavily edited
:49:54. > :49:56.hatchet job. Channel four denied that it mocks the poor, saying it
:49:57. > :50:00.paints a fair picture of life in James Turner Street.
:50:01. > :50:11.Have either of you watched it? I have watched a brief part of the
:50:12. > :50:16.programme. Bits of it. I saw some of it on catch`up. I put up with about
:50:17. > :50:20.15 minutes of it. It could be a street in Dudley, couldn't it? I
:50:21. > :50:25.don't know of any street in Disley that are remotely like that. In the
:50:26. > :50:30.street, there are 99 houses, hundreds of people living there. So
:50:31. > :50:33.far on the programme they have featured half a dozen. I'm not sure
:50:34. > :50:38.it will present a fair picture of people on the street, let alone
:50:39. > :50:47.anywhere else. The vast majority... Where there are people committing
:50:48. > :50:53.fraud... They film people preparing to go shoplifting. I think that is
:50:54. > :50:56.outrageous. That is not responsible broadcasting. I think the vast
:50:57. > :50:59.majority of people who are on benefits have worked and want to
:51:00. > :51:03.work and are trying to get back into work. Where people don't want to
:51:04. > :51:07.work, I think we should have limits on how much can be claimed, how long
:51:08. > :51:12.people can claim for. We are proposing a compulsory jobs
:51:13. > :51:15.guarantee. After a certain amount of time, if they have not got a job,
:51:16. > :51:21.they will have to take it or lose their benefits. Deep people coming
:51:22. > :51:25.into your constituency surgery? Do you recognise these people? There
:51:26. > :51:30.are people in every constituency like the people we have seen on the
:51:31. > :51:33.programme. There is no doubt on `` about that. I feel sorry for people
:51:34. > :51:38.who are trying to do the right thing and trying to get into work and who
:51:39. > :51:44.feel they are being demonised for being an benefits. I feel for the
:51:45. > :51:53.other people living on James `` James Turner Street, the high ``
:51:54. > :51:57.hard working people. The most positive way to get people out of
:51:58. > :52:03.poverty is getting people into work. This government has created 1.6
:52:04. > :52:10.million private sector jobs. People are getting into work. Employment is
:52:11. > :52:14.going down, `` unemployment is going down. We are doing everything we can
:52:15. > :52:18.to make work pay. We are doing that by reducing the amount of tax that
:52:19. > :52:22.people have to pay on their wages and recommending quite a substantial
:52:23. > :52:28.increase in the minimum wage. That is the best way to make work pay,
:52:29. > :52:37.get people back into work. Let's here from Channel four. They spoke
:52:38. > :52:42.to those earlier in the week. We were clear from the outset that
:52:43. > :52:46.we were not trying to do a broad picture of the benefits welfare
:52:47. > :52:50.system, but examined a part of Britain where dependency on benefits
:52:51. > :52:52.is highly concentrated. James Turner Street in Birmingham has a lot of
:52:53. > :52:59.people who depend on benefits to live. There is a long`term problem
:53:00. > :53:03.with high employment. The hopes of them to get out off benefits are
:53:04. > :53:08.relatively high. Lets try and unpack this a bit.
:53:09. > :53:10.There has been a huge reaction. Iain Duncan Smith says the public backs
:53:11. > :53:14.the kind of welfare reform they are putting forward because they want to
:53:15. > :53:19.CNN to the abuses that we have seen something of the programme. He says
:53:20. > :53:25.that these people are trapped in the welfare dependency created by
:53:26. > :53:31.Labour. There is a long`term generational problem of unemployment
:53:32. > :53:38.in some families and some communities. We have all got to work
:53:39. > :53:45.harder to tackle that. Fraud and error is going up. Unemployment has
:53:46. > :53:49.risen during this government. I want to see limits on how long people can
:53:50. > :53:53.be on benefits, limits to how much people can claim. I don't think that
:53:54. > :53:57.anybody should be better off on benefits than in work, but I don't
:53:58. > :54:00.think this programme presents a fair picture of the vast majority of
:54:01. > :54:05.people who are on benefits and desperately trying to get back into
:54:06. > :54:09.work and get a job. What we have to do, the economy has started to grow
:54:10. > :54:14.nationally, which is good. I don't think anybody would pretend that the
:54:15. > :54:19.benefits of economic growth and we have just begun to see has filtered
:54:20. > :54:31.through here in Birmingham, and not in areas like Winson Green. There
:54:32. > :54:35.has to be more done to encourage economic growth. 3% of the welfare
:54:36. > :54:42.budget goes on unemployment benefits. Real savings would come if
:54:43. > :54:47.you tackle pensioners, winter fuel allowance, free TV licences, all
:54:48. > :54:52.these kinds of things, but you don't tackle it because they vote for you.
:54:53. > :54:57.I did accept what you are saying at all. Most of the people who are on
:54:58. > :55:02.pension benefits, and when we say benefits, a lot of these things are
:55:03. > :55:05.people that `` things that people have contributed to, they have
:55:06. > :55:11.worked hard and they deserve a good and decent time and. What we need to
:55:12. > :55:15.do is get more people into work, despite what Ian says. There are
:55:16. > :55:18.less people are unemployed now than when this government came into
:55:19. > :55:22.power. There was a situation under the previous Labour government where
:55:23. > :55:25.they make the situation of welfare dependency worse. We are now
:55:26. > :55:29.tackling the problem. It is a tough job that we have got on our hands of
:55:30. > :55:32.doing that, but we are doing that and making work pay, bringing in
:55:33. > :55:38.universal credit and trying to raise the minimum wage, giving people more
:55:39. > :55:41.of the money they earned by reducing income tax, and that is the way to
:55:42. > :55:46.incentivise people, getting them into work and hopefully we will see
:55:47. > :55:50.far less of this type of culture. OK, we will see what Benefits Street
:55:51. > :55:52.brings this week. It is time for our regular round`up
:55:53. > :56:07.of the political week. West Mercia's Police and Crime
:56:08. > :56:14.Commissioner Bill Longmore has lung cancer. He is not stepping down, but
:56:15. > :56:16.his deputy Barry Sheldon will take over in the interim. Staffordshire
:56:17. > :56:22.county council is have voted to close care homes for people with
:56:23. > :56:25.learning disabilities despite protests from users. More rail
:56:26. > :56:31.delays. Virgin has shelved plans to reinstate a direct link from
:56:32. > :56:35.Shropshire to London. It was to happen in May but December now looks
:56:36. > :56:39.more likely. Birmingham City Council is considering selling landmarks
:56:40. > :56:45.like the NEC to pay legal claims over equal pay, totalling more than
:56:46. > :56:49.?1 billion. The Chancellor was here again celebrating good economic news
:56:50. > :56:53.as the government agreed to pay ?30 million into 3`D printing and
:56:54. > :56:58.aerospace technology in Coventry. Is all about a British economy that
:56:59. > :57:02.builds its manufacturing base, Britain that makes things again and
:57:03. > :57:11.is not just rely on the City of London.
:57:12. > :57:16.Marcus Jones, you mentioned that things are looking up. The pants ``
:57:17. > :57:22.the Chancellor was positive there. Can we just cut back on austerity?
:57:23. > :57:27.Is this the end of austerity? I don't think it is. We are borrowing
:57:28. > :57:31.more than we are bringing in in taxation, so we have to keep
:57:32. > :57:33.tackling that. I tackling the deficit we have been able to keep
:57:34. > :57:44.mortgage rates and interest rates low for businesses. It has had a
:57:45. > :57:48.positive effect because unemployment is down and manufacturing is on the
:57:49. > :57:54.rise again. We have seen a resurgence here in the nest `` West
:57:55. > :57:58.Midlands, which is good news will stop we need a sustainable
:57:59. > :58:02.recovery. The government has got a long`term plan to achieve that. It
:58:03. > :58:05.is all good news. It is getting harder to utilise any political
:58:06. > :58:12.hits, because it is all coming good. I don't think that is true. In
:58:13. > :58:17.employment and? Inflation at 2%? It is great that the economy has
:58:18. > :58:24.finally started to grow after George Osborne choked off the recovery by
:58:25. > :58:27.cutting too far in 2010. This covenant has borrowed more in former
:58:28. > :58:31.years and the last governor and borrowed in 13 years. Lord Osborne
:58:32. > :58:41.has been saying they want to see a rise in the minimum wage, but many
:58:42. > :58:43.people in the West Midlands will not be able to take that seriously from
:58:44. > :58:46.Chancellor who is on the West Midlands will not be able to take
:58:47. > :58:48.that seriously from Chancellor who is never want tax cuts has been for
:58:49. > :58:51.the wealthiest people in Britain. But there is good news locally. Of
:58:52. > :59:02.course, great news when the economy starts news `` move. I want to see a
:59:03. > :59:10.proper long`term sustained to covering `` recovery. As I say,
:59:11. > :59:13.no`one will take this seriously from the governor and his number one
:59:14. > :59:16.objective has been to cut taxes for the very wealthy. They are the
:59:17. > :59:22.people that this government is primarily trying to help. The
:59:23. > :59:25.problem is, do your constituents Theo Leggett is speeding through to
:59:26. > :59:29.them on the ground? They are starting to feel that. There has
:59:30. > :59:34.been a tough time for people living across the West Midlands, but things
:59:35. > :59:42.are starting to get better slowly. It is important that the job is not
:59:43. > :59:47.yet done the by any means. There are a lot of spending commitments.
:59:48. > :59:52.Labour do not want to put the country right in a sustainable when
:59:53. > :59:57.`` way. They want to borrow more and put his back where we were. I think
:59:58. > :00:09.getting better? Sign that we don't think there is evidence of that in
:00:10. > :00:14.Dudley yet. Thank you very much. Tomorrow's Inside Out West Midlands
:00:15. > :00:21.is a special episode about people who steal electricity and gas. We
:00:22. > :00:34.houses being built by the mayor. Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.
:00:35. > :00:39.Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of
:00:40. > :00:43.the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first
:00:44. > :00:44.appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in
:00:45. > :01:16.action. APPLAUSE
:01:17. > :01:19.Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving
:01:20. > :01:25.for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into
:01:26. > :01:36.the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful Now
:01:37. > :01:39.the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what
:01:40. > :01:41.about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed
:01:42. > :01:48.Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the
:01:49. > :01:53.programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering
:01:54. > :01:57.her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the
:01:58. > :02:03.local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,
:02:04. > :02:06.can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next
:02:07. > :02:12.series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there
:02:13. > :02:17.is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local
:02:18. > :02:22.MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.
:02:23. > :02:32.They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big
:02:33. > :02:36.opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity
:02:37. > :02:42.television show of their role these problems in Portsmouth? This was in
:02:43. > :02:45.her spare time and it is raising money for a good cause. I do not
:02:46. > :02:51.think we should eat two sniffy about it. Did I not see you dressed up on
:02:52. > :02:58.Thursday night, doing your programme? This is my job. This is
:02:59. > :03:09.not her job. It was in her spare time, she was raising money for a
:03:10. > :03:14.local charity. Your Minister for Portsmouth. Are we going to have a
:03:15. > :03:17.minister for every town? Are we going to have a minister for
:03:18. > :03:22.Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury does not have the issues that
:03:23. > :03:29.Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth has. There are jobs at risk in
:03:30. > :03:35.shipbuilding. The government puts in a lot of money through the regional
:03:36. > :03:40.growth fund, some ?20 million. There are range of government funding
:03:41. > :03:45.streams going into Portsmouth. My job is to make sure that is properly
:03:46. > :03:48.coordinated. I need to make sure that Portsmouth seizes this
:03:49. > :03:53.opportunity to develop a more broadly -based marine and maritime
:03:54. > :03:58.economy. To make sure a marginal seat stays Tory at the next
:03:59. > :04:08.election? There are marginal seats everywhere. There is a Liberal
:04:09. > :04:11.Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince Cable and I have been working
:04:12. > :04:17.together for the issues that Portsmouth is facing. We work on
:04:18. > :04:20.these things together. But I have the very specific job of making sure
:04:21. > :04:26.that the effort on the ground is coordinated. So Vince Cable is not
:04:27. > :04:31.the Minister for Portsmouth? I have been there recently, so has Vince
:04:32. > :04:37.Cable. So there are two ministers for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am
:04:38. > :04:41.making sure that the effort is properly coordinated on the ground.
:04:42. > :04:46.I am determined to turn this challenging time into a proper
:04:47. > :04:52.opportunity. Should we be to Paul faced about this? No, good honour.
:04:53. > :04:56.How much money would be have to pay you to get into a swimming costume?
:04:57. > :05:03.Bid is not enough money in the BBC covers. Good on her. It took seven
:05:04. > :05:09.years to get a leg there's an MP. She should be a minister. It is a
:05:10. > :05:14.pity she has the spare time to do this. She is very talented. It is
:05:15. > :05:19.interesting about the Minister for Portsmouth, up in the north-east
:05:20. > :05:25.they must be sad that they do not have any marginal seats. Nick Brown
:05:26. > :05:31.as David Cameron last July, can we have a minister for the north-east,
:05:32. > :05:35.and the Prime Minister is said no? Does this mean that Portsmouth is
:05:36. > :05:40.more deprived economic late than the north-east? No, it means it is a
:05:41. > :05:43.marginal seat. The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on
:05:44. > :05:46.the Andrew Marr programme this morning and he outlined plans under
:05:47. > :05:49.a Labour government for an annual competition audit. Here is what he
:05:50. > :05:51.had to say. The next Labour government will have an annual
:05:52. > :05:56.competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them
:05:57. > :06:00.will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,
:06:01. > :06:05.setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit
:06:06. > :06:09.consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next
:06:10. > :06:13.election as the party of competition, the party of the
:06:14. > :06:17.consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.
:06:18. > :06:21.They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the
:06:22. > :06:26.next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the
:06:27. > :06:31.party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the
:06:32. > :06:35.party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual
:06:36. > :06:41.competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling
:06:42. > :06:45.banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller
:06:46. > :06:51.ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that
:06:52. > :06:54.this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who
:06:55. > :06:57.think that through interfering with the market, through his price
:06:58. > :07:03.freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this
:07:04. > :07:09.before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise
:07:10. > :07:14.of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is
:07:15. > :07:20.creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets
:07:21. > :07:26.Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work
:07:27. > :07:31.There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.
:07:32. > :07:36.Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in
:07:37. > :07:41.those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were
:07:42. > :07:46.suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In
:07:47. > :07:50.the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.
:07:51. > :07:55.That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector our
:07:56. > :08:00.bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into
:08:01. > :08:05.account the become unaffordable He has to make the case that consumers
:08:06. > :08:10.are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it
:08:11. > :08:16.is not about state intervention but about making markets work. The piece
:08:17. > :08:21.that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and
:08:22. > :08:25.the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in
:08:26. > :08:32.the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets
:08:33. > :08:38.to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning. Tim
:08:39. > :08:46.Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as
:08:47. > :08:52.the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are seen as the party of business.
:08:53. > :08:56.There are smaller energy companies competing against the big six. In
:08:57. > :09:01.banking, we have seen smaller companies coming. It was the Labour
:09:02. > :09:06.government that created the big six energy companies. I think Teddy
:09:07. > :09:11.Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the Philippines. That could give us a
:09:12. > :09:18.clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign policy. Nigel Farage has promised to
:09:19. > :09:22.purge the party of its more extreme candidates ahead of the European
:09:23. > :09:29.Council elections in May. But that may not be going so well. Listen to
:09:30. > :09:36.this. The latest in this process is these homosexual laws. And Thomas I
:09:37. > :09:41.shall manage. I believe that the Prime Minister, who was warned that
:09:42. > :09:48.disasters would follow a three went in this direction, he has persisted,
:09:49. > :09:55.and I believe that this is largely a repercussion from this godlessness
:09:56. > :09:59.that he has persisted in. The instructions I have got from now on,
:10:00. > :10:05.or is just not to answer in, and not to give interviews such as this one.
:10:06. > :10:10.So you are ignoring them? I am not ignoring them. But you are talking
:10:11. > :10:17.to me? You are the last one I shall be speaking to. I think it is too
:10:18. > :10:19.late. Who would have thought it It is not global warming that is
:10:20. > :10:26.causing the floods, it is gay marriage? That explains it. Last
:10:27. > :10:31.year David Cameron offered a coded retraction of his statement that
:10:32. > :10:37.UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think he will be tempted to retract the
:10:38. > :10:40.retraction. It is a warning to lots of Tories who think that their best
:10:41. > :10:48.interests are served by flirting with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage
:10:49. > :10:53.is a very plausible guy, but several layers down, there are people who
:10:54. > :10:57.are very different. Nigel Farage is saying that he's going to clear the
:10:58. > :11:02.party out of what Mr Cameron called the fruitcakes. If he is true to his
:11:03. > :11:08.word, Mr Sylvester's days in the party should they numbered. If Nigel
:11:09. > :11:20.Farage falls under the bus, what is left of place -- what is left of
:11:21. > :11:24.UKIP? People say that they like UKIP because unlike other politicians,
:11:25. > :11:28.they speak their mind. But as it turns into more of a proper
:11:29. > :11:33.organisation, people speaking their mind will be less acceptable. The
:11:34. > :11:40.European elections are always a protest vote. People are not happy
:11:41. > :11:43.with the elite. You will get people saying utterly ridiculous things
:11:44. > :11:48.like that man in Henley-on-Thames. But this is a chance to vote against
:11:49. > :11:57.the entire political establishment. I am not sure that comments like
:11:58. > :12:00.that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about
:12:01. > :12:07.climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big
:12:08. > :12:12.protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots
:12:13. > :12:15.of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the
:12:16. > :12:21.only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice the
:12:22. > :12:25.first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a
:12:26. > :12:30.conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David
:12:31. > :12:34.Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I
:12:35. > :12:41.think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the
:12:42. > :12:46.only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice
:12:47. > :12:50.they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,
:12:51. > :12:54.it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this
:12:55. > :13:00.week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing
:13:01. > :13:05.between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats
:13:06. > :13:09.and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,
:13:10. > :13:19.I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the
:13:20. > :13:23.issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord
:13:24. > :13:31.Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.
:13:32. > :13:35.Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday
:13:36. > :13:38.on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,
:13:39. > :13:40.it is the Sunday Politics.