16/03/2014

:00:37. > :00:44.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne's fifth

:00:45. > :00:47.Budget will offer more tax relief for the lower paid but not for

:00:48. > :00:48.middle income earners being thrust into the 40p tax bracket. That's our

:00:49. > :00:53.top story. Ed Balls says millions of people

:00:54. > :00:56.aren't feeling any benefit from the recovery. We'll discuss the economy

:00:57. > :01:04.with big political beasts from Labour, the Conservatives, and the

:01:05. > :01:07.Lib Dems. Now that Ed Miliband has effectively ruled out an in/out EU

:01:08. > :01:08.referendum, how does UKIP deal with Tory claims that a vote for UKIP

:01:09. > :01:14.means no chance And in the Midlands, we must build

:01:15. > :01:17.more homes where people want them than not where they don't. So why

:01:18. > :01:19.are brownfield sites overlooked by developers with designs on our green

:01:20. > :01:23.spaces instead? restoring confidence in the safety

:01:24. > :01:24.of cycling. The three areas of London getting a cash boost to try

:01:25. > :01:36.something different. And with me as always our top

:01:37. > :01:38.political panel - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. They'll be

:01:39. > :01:43.tweeting their thoughts using the hashtag #bbcsp throughout the

:01:44. > :01:46.programme. So, just three months after his last major financial

:01:47. > :01:51.statement, George Osborne will be at the despatch box again on Wednesday,

:01:52. > :01:54.delivering his 2014 Budget. The Chancellor has already previewed his

:01:55. > :02:05.own speech, pledging to build what he calls a "resilient economy". The

:02:06. > :02:08.message I will give in the Budget is the economic plan is working but the

:02:09. > :02:12.job is far from done. We need to build resilient economy which means

:02:13. > :02:16.addressing the long-term weaknesses in Britain that we don't export

:02:17. > :02:19.enough, invest enough, build enough, make enough. Those are the things I

:02:20. > :02:24.will address because we want Britain to earn its way in the world. George

:02:25. > :02:27.Osborne's opposite number, Ed Balls, has also been talking ahead of the

:02:28. > :02:29.Budget. He says not everyone is feeling the benefit of the economic

:02:30. > :02:36.recovery, and again attacked the Government's decision to reduce the

:02:37. > :02:40.top rate of tax from 50 to 45%. George Osborne is only ever tough

:02:41. > :02:43.when he's having a go at the week and the voiceless. Labour is willing

:02:44. > :02:47.to face up to people on the highest incomes and say, I'm sorry,

:02:48. > :02:53.justifying a big tax cut at this time is not fair. We will take away

:02:54. > :02:57.the winter allowance from the richer pensioners, and I think that's the

:02:58. > :03:03.right thing to do. George Osborne might agree, but he's not allowed to

:03:04. > :03:06.say so. That was the Chancellor and the shadow chancellor. Janan, it

:03:07. > :03:10.seems like we are in a race against time. No one argues that the

:03:11. > :03:14.recovery is not under way, in fact it looks quite strong after a long

:03:15. > :03:19.wait, but will it feed through to the living standards of ordinary

:03:20. > :03:23.people in time for the May election? They only have 14 months to do it.

:03:24. > :03:28.The big economic variable is business investment. Even during the

:03:29. > :03:32.downturn, businesses hoarded a lot of cash. The question is, are they

:03:33. > :03:36.confident enough to release that into investment and wages? Taking on

:03:37. > :03:40.new people, giving them higher pay settlements. That could make the

:03:41. > :03:46.difference and the country will feel more prosperous and this time next

:03:47. > :03:50.year. But come to think of it, it strikes me, that how anticipated it

:03:51. > :03:53.is, it's the least talked about Budget for many years. I think that

:03:54. > :03:58.is because the economy has settled down a bit, but also because people

:03:59. > :04:02.have got used to the idea that there is no such thing as a giveaway.

:04:03. > :04:07.Anything that is a tax cut will be taken away as a tax rise or spending

:04:08. > :04:10.cut. That's true during the good times but during fiscal

:04:11. > :04:17.consolidation, it's avoidable. - unavoidable. There is a plus and

:04:18. > :04:21.minus for the Conservatives here. 49% of people think the government

:04:22. > :04:23.is on roughly the right course, but only 16% think that their financial

:04:24. > :04:29.circumstances will improve this year. It will be a tough one for the

:04:30. > :04:35.Labour Party to respond to. I agree with Janan. Everyone seems bored

:04:36. > :04:40.with the run-up to the Budget. The front page of the Sunday Times was

:04:41. > :04:45.about fox hunting, the front page of the Sunday Telegraph was about EU

:04:46. > :04:49.renegotiation. Maybe we are saying this because there have not been

:04:50. > :04:54.many leaks. We have got used to them, and most of the George Osborne

:04:55. > :04:59.chat on Twitter was about how long his tie was. Freakishly long. I

:05:00. > :05:06.wouldn't dare to speculate why. Anything we should read into that? I

:05:07. > :05:13.don't know. For a long while there was no recovery, then it was it is a

:05:14. > :05:16.weak recovery, and now, all right, it's strong but not reaching

:05:17. > :05:21.everyone in the country. That is where we are in the debate. That's

:05:22. > :05:27.right, and the Conservative MPs are so anxious and they are making

:05:28. > :05:32.George Osborne announcing the rays in the personal allowance will go

:05:33. > :05:40.up, saying it might go up to 10 750 from next year, and Conservative MPs

:05:41. > :05:43.say that that's OK but we need to think about the middle voters.

:05:44. > :05:47.People are saying the economy is recovering but no one is feeling it

:05:48. > :05:51.in their pocket. These are people snagged in at a 40p tax rate. The

:05:52. > :05:56.Tories are saying these are our people and we have to get to them.

:05:57. > :06:02.He has given the Lib Dems more than they could have hoped for on raising

:06:03. > :06:06.the threshold. Why is he not saying we have done a bit for you, now we

:06:07. > :06:13.have to look after our people and get some of these people out of that

:06:14. > :06:15.40% bracket? Partly because the Lib Dems have asked for it so

:06:16. > :06:19.insistently behind-the-scenes. Somebody from the Treasury this week

:06:20. > :06:22.told me that these debates behind the scenes between the Lib Dems and

:06:23. > :06:26.Tories are incredibly tenacious and get more so every year. The Lib Dems

:06:27. > :06:31.have been insistent about going further on the threshold. The second

:06:32. > :06:37.reason is that the Tories think the issue can work for them in the next

:06:38. > :06:41.election. They can take the credit. If they enthusiastically going to

:06:42. > :06:45.?12,000 and make it a manifesto pledge, they can claim ownership of

:06:46. > :06:50.the policy. The Liberal Democrats want to take it to 12,500, which

:06:51. > :06:54.means you are getting into minimum wage territory. It's incredibly

:06:55. > :07:00.expensive and the Tories are saying that maybe you would be looking at

:07:01. > :07:04.the 40p rate. The Tories have played as well. There have been authorised

:07:05. > :07:07.briefings about the 40p rate, and Cameron and Osborne have said that

:07:08. > :07:10.their priority was helping the lowest paid which is a useful

:07:11. > :07:15.statement to make and it appeals to the UKIP voters who are the

:07:16. > :07:20.blue-collar workers. And we are right, the economy will determine

:07:21. > :07:24.the next election? You assume so. It was ever that is. It didn't in 992

:07:25. > :07:34.or 1987. It did in 1992. Ed Miliband's announcement last week

:07:35. > :07:36.that a Labour government would not hold a referendum on Europe unless

:07:37. > :07:39.there's another transfer of powers from Britain to Brussels has

:07:40. > :07:44.certainly clarified matters. UKIP say it just shows the mainstream

:07:45. > :07:47.parties can't be trusted. The Conservatives think it means UKIP

:07:48. > :07:50.voters might now flock back to them as the only realistic chance of

:07:51. > :07:53.securing a referendum. Giles Dilnot reports.

:07:54. > :07:58.When it comes to Europe and Britain's relation to it, the

:07:59. > :08:02.question is whether the answer is answered by a question. To be in or

:08:03. > :08:05.not to be in, that is the question, and our politicians have seemed less

:08:06. > :08:09.interested in question itself but whether they want to let us answer

:08:10. > :08:21.it. Labour clarified their position last week. There will be no transfer

:08:22. > :08:24.of powers without an in out referendum, without a clear choice

:08:25. > :08:30.as to whether Britain will stay in the EU. That seems yes to a

:08:31. > :08:33.referendum, but hold on. I believe it is unlikely that this lock will

:08:34. > :08:37.be used in the next Parliament. So that's a no. The Conservatives say

:08:38. > :08:47.yes to asking, in 2017, if re-elected, but haven't always. In

:08:48. > :08:49.2011, 81 Tory MPs defied the PM by voting for a referendum on EU

:08:50. > :08:52.membership: the largest rebellion against a Tory prime minister over

:08:53. > :09:03.Europe. Prompted by a petition from over 100,000 members of the public.

:09:04. > :09:05.The wrong question at the wrong time said the Foreign Secretary of a

:09:06. > :09:08.coalition Government including selfie-conciously-pro European Lib

:09:09. > :09:11.Dems, who had a referendum pledge in their 2010 manifesto, but only in

:09:12. > :09:14.certain circumstances. So we have the newspapers, and the public

:09:15. > :09:17.meeting leaflets. UKIP have always wanted the question put regardless.

:09:18. > :09:25.But Labour's new position may change things and The Conservatives think

:09:26. > :09:31.so. I think it does, because, you know, we are saying very clearly,

:09:32. > :09:36.like UKIP, we want a referendum but only a Conservative government can

:09:37. > :09:41.deliver it because most suffer largest would say it is possible in

:09:42. > :09:50.the first past the post system to have a UKIP government --

:09:51. > :09:57.sophologists. And then it's easy for as to say that if a UKIP vote lets

:09:58. > :10:03.in a Conservative government, then they won't hold a referendum. UKIP

:10:04. > :10:06.seem undaunted by the clarifications of the other parties, campaigning

:10:07. > :10:09.like the rest but with a "tell it how it is, just saying what you re

:10:10. > :10:16.thinking, we aren't like them" attitude. They seem more worried

:10:17. > :10:20.about us and what we want, and I don't see that in the other parties.

:10:21. > :10:27.In parts of the UK, like South Essex, it's a message they think is

:10:28. > :10:30.working. They are taking the voters for granted again and people have

:10:31. > :10:37.had enough. People are angry, they see people saying they will get a

:10:38. > :10:42.vote on the European Union, but then it just comes down the road. They

:10:43. > :10:48.were quick to capitalise on the announcements, saying only the

:10:49. > :10:54.Conservatives will give you say so does it change things? Not really.

:10:55. > :10:57.We have been talking about a referendum and having a debate on

:10:58. > :11:02.the European Union for years, and the other parties are playing catch

:11:03. > :11:06.up. They have a trust issue. Nobody trusts them on the European Union

:11:07. > :11:09.and that is why people come to us. Who the average UKIP voter is, or

:11:10. > :11:11.how they voted before is complicated, and what dent they

:11:12. > :11:14.might make on Conservative and Labour votes in 2015 is trickier

:11:15. > :11:23.still, but someone's been crunching the numbers anyway. We reckon it is

:11:24. > :11:26.between 25 and 30% of the electorate broadly share the UKIP motivation,

:11:27. > :11:30.so to top out at that level would be difficult. That's an awful lot of

:11:31. > :11:35.voters, but it's not the majority, and this is the reason why the main

:11:36. > :11:38.parties can't afford to just openly appealed to the UKIP electorate too

:11:39. > :11:43.hard because the elections are won and lost amongst the other 70%, the

:11:44. > :11:48.middle-class, the graduate, the younger, ethnic minorities. An

:11:49. > :11:52.appeal to the values of UKIP voters will alienate some of the other

:11:53. > :11:55.groups, and they are arguably more significant in winning the election.

:11:56. > :11:58.Whatever, the numbers UKIPers seem doggedly determined to dig away at

:11:59. > :12:02.any support the other parties have previously enjoyed.

:12:03. > :12:04.Giles Dilnot reporting. UKIP's leader, Nigel Farage, joins me now

:12:05. > :12:21.for the Sunday Interview. Nigel Farage, welcome back. Good

:12:22. > :12:24.morning. So the Labour Party has shot a fox. If Ed Miliband is the

:12:25. > :12:29.next by Minister, there will not be a referendum customer there's a long

:12:30. > :12:33.way between now and the next election, and Conservative party

:12:34. > :12:36.jobs and changes. We had a cast iron guarantee of a referendum from

:12:37. > :12:40.camera, then he three line whip people to vote against it, and now

:12:41. > :12:44.they are for it. What the Labour Party has done is open up a huge

:12:45. > :12:47.blank to us, and that is what we will go for in the European

:12:48. > :12:51.elections this coming year in May. I think there is a very strong chance

:12:52. > :12:55.that Labour will match the Conservative pledge by the next

:12:56. > :13:00.general election. There may be, but at the moment he has ruled it out,

:13:01. > :13:03.and if he does not change his mind and goes into the election with the

:13:04. > :13:10.policy as it is, the only chance of a referendum is a Tory government.

:13:11. > :13:14.If you think the Tories will form a majority, which I think is unlikely.

:13:15. > :13:17.Remember, two thirds of our voters would never vote Conservative

:13:18. > :13:21.anyway. There is still this line of questioning that assumes UKIP voters

:13:22. > :13:25.are middle-class Tories. We have some voters like that, but most of

:13:26. > :13:30.them are coming to us from Labour, some from the Lib Dems and a lot of

:13:31. > :13:37.nonvoters. But it come the election you failed to change Mr Miliband's

:13:38. > :13:40.line, I repeat, the only chance of a referendum, if you want a

:13:41. > :13:44.referendum, if that is what matters, and the polls suggest it doesn't

:13:45. > :13:47.matter to that many people, but if that is what matters, the only way

:13:48. > :13:52.you can get one is to vote Conservative. No, because you have a

:13:53. > :13:56.situation in key marginals, especially where all three parties

:13:57. > :14:00.are getting a good share, where we will see, and this depends a lot on

:14:01. > :14:06.the local elections and the European elections, there are target

:14:07. > :14:10.constituencies where UKIP has a reasonably good chance of winning a

:14:11. > :14:17.seat, and that will change the agenda. Every vote for UKIP makes a

:14:18. > :14:20.Tory government less likely. Arab voters are not Tory. Only a third of

:14:21. > :14:26.the UKIP boat comes from the Conservative party -- our voters are

:14:27. > :14:30.not Tory. -- the UKIP vote. It was mentioned earlier, about blue-collar

:14:31. > :14:33.voters. We pick up far more Labour Party and nonvoters than

:14:34. > :14:37.conservatives. On the balance of what the effect of the UKIP boat

:14:38. > :14:41.is, the Tories should worry about us, they should worry about the fact

:14:42. > :14:46.they have lost faith with their own electorate. Even if there is a

:14:47. > :14:49.minority Ed Miliband government it means no referendum. Labour and the

:14:50. > :14:54.Liberal Democrats are now at one on the matter. The next election is in

:14:55. > :14:58.a few weeks time, the European elections. What happens in those

:14:59. > :15:01.elections will likely change the party stands and position on a

:15:02. > :15:06.referendum. The fact that Ed Miliband has said this means, for

:15:07. > :15:10.us, our big target on the 22nd of May will be the Labour voters in the

:15:11. > :15:14.Midlands and northern cities, and if we do hammer into that boat and we

:15:15. > :15:23.are able to beat Labour on the day, there's a good chance of their

:15:24. > :15:30.policy changing. One poll this morning suggests Labour is close to

:15:31. > :15:37.you at 28, the Conservatives down at 21, the Lib Dems down at eight. You

:15:38. > :15:41.are taking votes from the Conservatives and the Liberal

:15:42. > :15:48.Democrats. We are certainly taking votes from the Lib Dems but that is

:15:49. > :15:54.comparing the poll with one year ago when I don't think most people knew

:15:55. > :15:59.what the question really was. You seem to be in an impossible position

:16:00. > :16:04.because the better you do in a general election, the less chance

:16:05. > :16:10.there will be a referendum by 2 20. No, look at the numbers. Only a

:16:11. > :16:16.third of our voters are Conservatives. When we have polled

:16:17. > :16:20.voters that have come to us, we asked them if there was no UKIP

:16:21. > :16:25.candidate who would you vote for, less than one in five said

:16:26. > :16:30.Conservative. Less than one in five UKIP voters would be tempted to vote

:16:31. > :16:35.Conservative under any circumstances so the arithmetic does not suggest

:16:36. > :16:38.we are the Conservative problem it suggests we are hurting all of the

:16:39. > :16:44.parties and the reason the Tories are in trouble is because they have

:16:45. > :16:50.lost their traditional base. Why do you think Nick Clegg is debating

:16:51. > :16:59.Europe? I think they are in trouble, at 8% they could be wiped

:17:00. > :17:03.out, they could go from 12 to nothing and I think it is a chance

:17:04. > :17:10.for Nick Clegg to raise their profile. They are fringe party with

:17:11. > :17:15.respect to this contest so I see why he wants to do it. One of our big

:17:16. > :17:19.criticisms is that we have not been able to have a full debate on

:17:20. > :17:24.national television on the alternatives of the European Union

:17:25. > :17:37.so I am looking forward to it. How are you preparing? I think you can

:17:38. > :17:43.be over scripted with these things. Are you not doing mock debates? No,

:17:44. > :17:48.I am checking my facts and figures and making sure that I can show the

:17:49. > :17:53.British people that in terms of jobs, we would be far better off not

:17:54. > :17:58.being within the European Union not being within its rule book, not

:17:59. > :18:04.suffering from some of the green taxes they are putting on the

:18:05. > :18:09.manufacturing industry. The idea that 3 million jobs are at risk I

:18:10. > :18:16.want to show why that is nonsense. Who do you think is playing you in

:18:17. > :18:23.their mock debates? They probably went to the pub and found someone!

:18:24. > :18:27.We will see. You have promised to do whatever it takes to fund your

:18:28. > :18:34.European election campaign, how much has been given so far? Just give it

:18:35. > :18:40.a few weeks and you will see what Paul is planning to do. He has made

:18:41. > :18:48.a substantial investment in the campaign already. How much? I'm not

:18:49. > :18:53.answering that for now. We are well on our way to a properly funded

:18:54. > :18:59.campaign and our big target will be the big cities and the working vote

:19:00. > :19:03.in those communities. Your deputy chairman Neil Hamilton is another

:19:04. > :19:09.former Tory, he says so far we haven't seen the colour of his

:19:10. > :19:15.money. Exactly two weeks ago, and things have changed since then. Mr

:19:16. > :19:25.Sykes has written a cheque since then? Yes. This morning's papers

:19:26. > :19:32.saying you will be asking MEPs to contribute ?50,000 each, is that

:19:33. > :19:38.true? Over the next five years, yes. Not for the European campaign. So

:19:39. > :19:44.lack of money will not be an excuse. We will have a properly funded

:19:45. > :19:48.campaign. How we raise the kind of money needed to fund the general

:19:49. > :19:58.election afterwards is another question. What is UKIP's policy on

:19:59. > :20:03.paying family members? We don't encourage it and I didn't employ any

:20:04. > :20:10.family member for years. My wife ended up doing the job and paid for

:20:11. > :20:17.the first seven years of my job She is paid now? Until May, then she

:20:18. > :20:25.comes off the payroll am which leaves me with a huge problem. In

:20:26. > :20:31.2004 you said, UKIP MEPs will not employ wives and there will be no

:20:32. > :20:35.exceptions. An exception was made because I became leader of the

:20:36. > :20:39.National party as well as a leader of the group in European

:20:40. > :20:43.Parliament. Things do change in life, and you can criticise me for

:20:44. > :20:48.whatever you like, but I cannot be criticised for not having a big

:20:49. > :20:58.enough workload. No, but you didn't employ your wife when you had told

:20:59. > :21:01.others not to do it your party. Nobody else in my party has a big

:21:02. > :21:06.job in Europe and the UK. We made the exception for this because of

:21:07. > :21:11.very unusual circumstances. It also looks like there was a monetary

:21:12. > :21:18.calculation. Listen to this clip from a BBC documentary in 2000. It

:21:19. > :21:24.is a good job. I worked it out because so much of what you get is

:21:25. > :21:27.after tax that if you used the secretarial allowances to pay your

:21:28. > :21:35.wife on top of the other games you can play, I reckon this job in

:21:36. > :21:38.Stirling term is over a quarter of ?1 million a year. That is what you

:21:39. > :21:45.would need to earn working for Goldman Sachs or someone like that.

:21:46. > :21:48.I agree with that. More importantly the way you really make money in the

:21:49. > :21:53.European Parliament is being their five days a week, because you sign

:21:54. > :21:59.in every day, you get 300 euros every day, and that is how people

:22:00. > :22:04.maxed out. The criticism of me is that I am not there enough so

:22:05. > :22:08.whatever good or bad I have done in the European Parliament, financial

:22:09. > :22:12.gain has not been one of the benefits. There have been

:22:13. > :22:18.allegations of you also employing a former mistress on the same European

:22:19. > :22:23.Parliamentary allowance, you deny that? I am very upset with the BBC

:22:24. > :22:28.coverage of this. The ten o'clock news run this as a story without

:22:29. > :22:32.explaining that that allegation was made using Parliamentary privilege

:22:33. > :22:40.by somebody on bail facing serious fraud charges. I thought that was

:22:41. > :22:48.pretty poor. You have a chance to do that and you deny you have employed

:22:49. > :22:52.a former mistress? Yes, but if you look at many of the things said over

:22:53. > :22:56.the last week, I think it is becoming pretty clear to voters that

:22:57. > :23:03.the establishment are becoming terrified of UKIP and they will use

:23:04. > :23:10.anything they can find to do us down in public. Is an MEP employs his

:23:11. > :23:16.wife and his former mistress, that would be resigning matter, wouldn't

:23:17. > :23:20.it? Yes, particularly if the assumption was that money was being

:23:21. > :23:27.taped for work but was not being done. Who do you think is behind

:23:28. > :23:33.these stories? It is all about negative, it is all about attacks,

:23:34. > :23:37.but I don't think it is actually going to work because so much of

:23:38. > :23:42.what has been said in the last week is nonsense. A reputable daily

:23:43. > :23:46.newspaper said I shouldn't be trusted because I had stored six

:23:47. > :23:50.times for the Conservative party, I have never even stored in a local

:23:51. > :23:56.council election. I think if you keep kicking an underdog, it will

:23:57. > :24:07.make the British people rally around us. Is it the Conservatives? Yes,

:24:08. > :24:12.and the idea that all of our voters are retired colonels is simply not

:24:13. > :24:22.true. We get some voters from the Labour side as well. Would you

:24:23. > :24:27.consider standing in a Labour seat if you are so sure you are getting

:24:28. > :24:35.Labour votes? Yes, but the key for UKIP is that it has to be marginal.

:24:36. > :24:43.Just for your own future, if you fail to win a single soul -- single

:24:44. > :24:48.seat in the general election, if Ed Miliband fails to win an outright

:24:49. > :24:53.majority, will you stand down as UKIP leader? I would think within

:24:54. > :24:58.about 12 hours, yes. I will have failed, I got into politics not

:24:59. > :25:03.because I wanted a career in politics, far from it. I did it

:25:04. > :25:06.because I don't think this European entanglement is right for our

:25:07. > :25:11.country. I think a lot of people have woken up to the idea we have

:25:12. > :25:18.lost control of our borders and now is the moment for UKIP to achieve

:25:19. > :25:24.what it set out to do. Will UKIP continue without you if you stand

:25:25. > :25:34.down? Of course it will. I know that everyone says it is a one-man band

:25:35. > :25:36.but it is far from that. We have had some painful moments, getting rid of

:25:37. > :25:40.old UKIP, new UKIP is more professional, less angry and it is

:25:41. > :25:46.going places. Nigel Farage, thank you for being with us.

:25:47. > :25:49.So, what else should we be looking out for in Wednesday's Budget

:25:50. > :25:50.statement? We've compiled a Sunday Politics guide to the Chancellor's

:25:51. > :25:54.likely announcements. Eyes down everyone, it's time for a

:25:55. > :25:58.bit of budget bingo. Let's see what we will get from the man who lives

:25:59. > :26:01.at legs 11. Despite some good news on the economy, George Osborne says

:26:02. > :26:04.that this will be a Budget of hard truths with more pain ahead in order

:26:05. > :26:07.to get the public finances back under control. But many in the

:26:08. > :26:10.Conservative party, including the former chancellor Norman Lamont

:26:11. > :26:13.want Mr Osborne to help the middle classes by doing something about the

:26:14. > :26:20.4.4 million people who fall into the 40% bracket. Around one million more

:26:21. > :26:23.people pay tax at that rate compared to 2010 because the higher tax

:26:24. > :26:28.threshold hasn't increased in line with inflation. Mr Osborne has

:26:29. > :26:31.indicated he might tackle the issue in the next Conservative manifesto,

:26:32. > :26:37.but for now he is focused on helping the low paid. It's likely we will

:26:38. > :26:43.see another increase in the amount you can earn before being taxed

:26:44. > :26:46.perhaps up another ?500 to ?10, 00. The Chancellor is going to flesh out

:26:47. > :26:49.the details of a tax break for childcare payments, and there could

:26:50. > :27:06.be cries of 'house' with the promise of more help for the building

:27:07. > :27:10.industry. The Help To Buy scheme will be extended to 2020 and there

:27:11. > :27:13.could be the go-ahead for the first Garden City in 40 years. Finally,

:27:14. > :27:15.bingo regulars could be celebrating a full house with a possible cut in

:27:16. > :27:18.bingo tax. And I've been joined in the studio

:27:19. > :27:20.by the former Conservative chancellor Norman Lamont, in Salford

:27:21. > :27:23.by the former Labour Cabinet minister Hazel Blears, and in

:27:24. > :27:26.Aberdeen by the Lib Dem deputy leader, Malcolm Bruce. Let me come

:27:27. > :27:33.to Norman Lamont first, you and another former Tory Chancellor,

:27:34. > :27:43.Nigel Lawson, have called in the fall in the threshold for the rate

:27:44. > :27:47.at which the 40p clicks in. I would have preferred an adjustment in the

:27:48. > :27:53.Budget but I agree with what you are saying, it sounds like the

:27:54. > :27:57.Chancellor will not do that. My main point is that you cannot go on

:27:58. > :28:01.forever and forever increasing the personal allowance and not

:28:02. > :28:07.increasing the 40% tax threshold because you are driving more and

:28:08. > :28:10.more people into that band. It is an expensive policy because in order to

:28:11. > :28:16.keep the number of people not paying tax constant, you have to keep

:28:17. > :28:22.adjusting it each year. When this was introduced by Nigel Lawson, it

:28:23. > :28:30.applied to one in 20 people, the 40% rate, it now applies to one in six

:28:31. > :28:34.people. By next year, there will be 6 million people paying base. Why do

:28:35. > :28:40.you think your Tory colleagues seem happy to go along with the Lib Dems

:28:41. > :28:54.and target whatever money there is for tax cuts rather -- on the lower

:28:55. > :29:00.paid rather than the middle incomes? They are not helping the lowest

:29:01. > :29:03.paid. If you wanted to really help the lowest paid people you would

:29:04. > :29:10.raise the threshold for national insurance contributions, which is

:29:11. > :29:19.around ?6,000. Is it the Lib Dems stopping any rise in the 40p

:29:20. > :29:25.threshold? We are concentrating on raising the lower threshold because

:29:26. > :29:31.we believe that is the way to help those on lower incomes. Whilst they

:29:32. > :29:34.haven't benefited as much as the lower paid they have participated

:29:35. > :29:39.and I think people understand right now, if you were going to prioritise

:29:40. > :29:44.the high earners, when we are still trying to help those on lower and

:29:45. > :29:48.middle incomes who haven't enjoyed great pay increases but have got the

:29:49. > :29:53.benefit of these tax increases, that is why we would like to do it for

:29:54. > :29:59.the minimum wage level. But the poorest will not benefit at all The

:30:00. > :30:04.poorest 16% already don't pay tax. Why don't you increase the threshold

:30:05. > :30:13.at which National Insurance starts? You only have two earned ?5,500

:30:14. > :30:18.before you start to pay it. You ve got to remember that the raising of

:30:19. > :30:23.the threshold to ?10,000 or more was something the Tories said we could

:30:24. > :30:30.not afford. Why are you continuing to do it? If you want to help the

:30:31. > :30:36.working poor, the way would be to take the lowest out of national

:30:37. > :30:39.insurance. The view we take is they are benefiting, and have benefited

:30:40. > :30:45.from, the raising of the tax threshold. You now have to earn

:30:46. > :30:49.?10,000, we hope eventually 12, 00, and that means only people on very

:30:50. > :30:53.low wages. If you opt out of national insurance, you're saying to

:30:54. > :30:59.people that you make no contribution to the welfare system, so there is a

:31:00. > :31:03.general principle that people should participate and paying, and also

:31:04. > :31:07.claim when they need something out. We thought raising the threshold was

:31:08. > :31:10.simple and effective at a time of economic austerity and the right way

:31:11. > :31:17.to deliver a helpful support to welcoming people. -- working people.

:31:18. > :31:21.With the Labour Party continue to raise the threshold, or do they

:31:22. > :31:27.think there is a case that there are too many people being dragged into

:31:28. > :31:30.the 40p tax bracket? If Norman Lamont thinks this is the right time

:31:31. > :31:34.to benefit people who are reasonably well off rather than those who are

:31:35. > :31:37.struggling to make ends meet, then genuinely, I say it respectfully, I

:31:38. > :31:42.don't think he's living in the world the rest of us are. Most working

:31:43. > :31:46.people have seen their wages effectively reduced by about ?1 00

:31:47. > :31:53.because they have been frozen, so the right thing is to help people on

:31:54. > :31:56.modest incomes. I also understand that if the 40% threshold went up,

:31:57. > :32:01.the people who would benefit the most, as ever, are the people who

:32:02. > :32:05.are really well off, not the people in the middle. The Conservatives

:32:06. > :32:10.have already reduced the 50p tax on people over ?150,000 a year, and we

:32:11. > :32:14.have to concentrate on the people going out to work, doing their best

:32:15. > :32:17.to bring their children up and have a decent life and need a bit of

:32:18. > :32:21.help. I think raising the threshold is a good thing. We would bring back

:32:22. > :32:27.the 10p tax, which we should never have abolished, and do things with

:32:28. > :32:31.regard to childcare. At the moment, childcare costs the average family

:32:32. > :32:35.as much as their mortgage, for goodness sake. We would give 25

:32:36. > :32:38.hours free childcare for youngsters over three and four years old. That

:32:39. > :32:46.would be a massive boost the working families. We are talking about

:32:47. > :32:49.nurses, tube drivers, warrant officers in the army. There are many

:32:50. > :32:54.people who are not well off but have been squeezed in the way everybody

:32:55. > :32:59.has been squeezed and they are finding it continuing. I am stunned

:33:00. > :33:02.by Malcolm's argument where everybody should pay something so

:33:03. > :33:05.you should not take people out of national insurance, but the

:33:06. > :33:11.principle doesn't apply to income tax. You can stand that argument on

:33:12. > :33:14.its head and apply it to income tax. Most people don't see a difference

:33:15. > :33:19.between income tax and national insurance, it's the same thing to

:33:20. > :33:22.most people. It is true that it isn't really an insurance fund and

:33:23. > :33:28.there is an argument from merging both of them. But we have

:33:29. > :33:34.concentrated on a simple tax proposition. Norman is ignoring the

:33:35. > :33:38.fact the people on the 40% rate have benefited by the raising of the

:33:39. > :33:40.personal allowance. To say they have been squeezed is unfair. The

:33:41. > :33:47.calculation is that an ordinary taxpayer will be ?700 better off at

:33:48. > :33:51.the current threshold, and about ?500 better off at the higher rate.

:33:52. > :33:56.It is misleading to say the better off we'll be paying more. I agree

:33:57. > :33:59.with Hazel, if you go to the 40% rate, it's the higher earners who

:34:00. > :34:04.benefit the most, and we won't do that when the economy is not where

:34:05. > :34:11.it was before the crash. How much will the lower paid be better off if

:34:12. > :34:15.you reintroduce the 10p rate? Significantly better off. I don't

:34:16. > :34:21.have the figure myself, but they'd be significantly better off and the

:34:22. > :34:25.Budget should be a mixture of measures to help people who work

:34:26. > :34:29.hard. That is why I think the childcare issue has to be

:34:30. > :34:35.addressed. ?100 a week of the people with childcare payments. It is a

:34:36. > :34:38.massive issue. We want the job is guaranteed to get young people back

:34:39. > :34:41.into work. There's been hardly any discussion about that, and we have

:34:42. > :34:45.nearly 1 million people who have been out of work for six months or

:34:46. > :34:52.more, and as a country we need to do something to help that. 350,000

:34:53. > :34:55.full-time students, so it is a misleading figure. It is not a

:34:56. > :35:01.million including full-time students. All parties do this. It

:35:02. > :35:05.sounds to me, Malcolm Bruce, you have more in common with the Labour

:35:06. > :35:09.Party than you do with the Conservatives. You want an annual

:35:10. > :35:13.levy on houses over ?2 million, so does Labour. A lot of your members

:35:14. > :35:17.want to scrap the so-called bedroom tax and so does labour. You think

:35:18. > :35:21.every teacher should have a teaching qualification, and so does Labour.

:35:22. > :35:26.Your policy on the EU referendum is the same. Let me go on. And you want

:35:27. > :35:31.to scrap the winter fuel allowance for wealthy pensioners. We want to

:35:32. > :35:34.make sure we get the public finances in order and we have grave

:35:35. > :35:44.reservations about the Labour Party promises. But they followed your

:35:45. > :35:47.spending plans in the first year. The point we are making is we can

:35:48. > :35:51.make a fairer society and stronger economy if you keep the public

:35:52. > :35:55.finances moving towards balance. We don't think the Labour Party will

:35:56. > :35:58.take a stand that track. It is interesting that the Labour Party

:35:59. > :36:04.want to introduce the 10p rate that Gordon Brown abolished. We consider

:36:05. > :36:10.that before we can -- committed to the 0% rate -- we considered that.

:36:11. > :36:16.It makes a complicated system difficult and we think it's better

:36:17. > :36:20.doing it that way. As a fiscal conservative, why are you talking

:36:21. > :36:23.about any tax cuts when the deficit is over ?100 billion, and

:36:24. > :36:28.effectively, anything you propose today can only be financed by more

:36:29. > :36:33.borrowing. I totally agree with you. I said that this week. I thought the

:36:34. > :36:37.best thing would have no Budget. The main thing is to get the deficit

:36:38. > :36:40.down. My argument is is that you have an adjustment in tax rates it

:36:41. > :36:45.should be shared between the allowances and the higher rate, but

:36:46. > :36:51.I don't think that the progress on the deficit is something we can give

:36:52. > :36:57.up on. This is still a very long way to go. We're only halfway through.

:36:58. > :37:01.Hazel, does it make sense to borrow for tax cuts? I am reluctant to do

:37:02. > :37:08.this, but I agree with both Norman and Malcolm. Malcolm Bruce wants to

:37:09. > :37:12.borrow for tax cuts. We absolutely need to get the deficit down and get

:37:13. > :37:16.finances on a strong footing. But we also have to think about having some

:37:17. > :37:20.spending in the system that in the longer run saves us money. We all

:37:21. > :37:25.know we need to build new homes. I don't think it's necessarily the

:37:26. > :37:30.right priority to give people in London mortgage relief in terms of

:37:31. > :37:34.?600,000. We have to get the balance right. Sometimes it is right to

:37:35. > :37:40.spend to save. I'm afraid we have run out of time. There will be

:37:41. > :37:43.plenty more discussion in the lead up to the Budget on Wednesday.

:37:44. > :37:47.It's just gone 11:35am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:37:48. > :37:51.goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:37:52. > :37:54.Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, Frances O'Grady, the

:37:55. > :38:05.General Secretary of the TUC, joins us discuss the

:38:06. > :38:11.Hello once again from the Mhdlands. I'm Patrick Burns. And we'rd joined

:38:12. > :38:14.today by a pair of radical reforming mavericks. A Labour MP who's

:38:15. > :38:18.actually campaigned for electoral reform. And a Conservative LP who

:38:19. > :38:21.wants all`women short lists. Caroline Spelman, Conservathve MP

:38:22. > :38:25.for Meriden, and former Envhronment Secretary. And Richard Burddn,

:38:26. > :38:32.Labour MP for Birmingham Northfield, is a Shadow Transport Minister. A

:38:33. > :38:35.very warm welcome to you both. First of all today, let's t`lk about

:38:36. > :38:39.what George Osborne's Budget briefcase might have in store for us

:38:40. > :38:42.here. He was in our part of the country earlier this year, `t the

:38:43. > :38:45.headquarters in Coleshill, Warwickshire, of the car parts maker

:38:46. > :38:50.Sertec. 400 new jobs there were he said, a vote of confidence hn the

:38:51. > :38:54.Midlands and in his economic plan. And all the signs are that, on

:38:55. > :39:00.Wednesday, he'll be sticking to that plan. Plan A. And, Caroline, the

:39:01. > :39:03.problems with Plan A is that, in the public mind, it is so often equated

:39:04. > :39:05.to cuts, cuts, cuts. That mdans blame, blame, blame for your

:39:06. > :39:11.government, especially health workers with a very stingy pay deal.

:39:12. > :39:14.Let's be clear that Plan A has delivered the fastest rate of growth

:39:15. > :39:19.of any economy in Europe. And I think it absolutely vindicates the

:39:20. > :39:22.standards that George Osborne took. `` the stands. We inherited a

:39:23. > :39:30.mammoth deficit from the last government. And we've still got the

:39:31. > :39:32.job to finish off repairing the nation's finances. But

:39:33. > :39:35.notwithstanding that, 1.6 mhllion jobs are being created in the

:39:36. > :39:41.private sector. Many of thel here in the West Midlands. Huge success of

:39:42. > :39:45.companies like Jaguar Land Rover. So let's not take away from thd success

:39:46. > :39:49.of Plan A. No doubt that is an argument that he will put on

:39:50. > :39:52.Wednesday. But what do you think should be in that briefcase on

:39:53. > :39:58.Wednesday on budget day? Goodness knows. I mean, it is good to see

:39:59. > :40:01.things looking up a bit. But it s frankly taken long enough. @nd I

:40:02. > :40:04.think what this budget has got to address is what my constitudnts

:40:05. > :40:08.said. What ordinary people feel You know, I was just told this lorning

:40:09. > :40:11.about there being 1800 referrals to foodbanks, just in my area. Five

:40:12. > :40:17.years ago, there was 20 young people long`term unemployed. Now, xou're

:40:18. > :40:21.talking about 240. What we need we think, is a jobs guarantee for young

:40:22. > :40:29.people, so we start to give young people the opportunities th`t they

:40:30. > :40:32.deserve. More and more people, especially young people, ard feeling

:40:33. > :40:35.disconnected from this recovery elsewhere. A couple of things.

:40:36. > :40:38.People often misunderstand that it is the huge increase in energy

:40:39. > :40:41.prices globally that has made it very hard for people with their

:40:42. > :40:45.household budgets. You've got to keep the lights on. So you're going

:40:46. > :40:48.to pay your electricity bill. That means, if there is food avahlable

:40:49. > :40:51.that you can get from a foodbank, people will tend to go. And what

:40:52. > :40:55.about the million apprenticdships that are being created to connect

:40:56. > :40:58.young people at the end of their education with a job? I think that's

:40:59. > :41:01.been a very successful policy. Briefly, Richard, I heard Ed Balls

:41:02. > :41:05.in Birmingham saying that hd was daunted by the prospect of becoming

:41:06. > :41:08.Chancellor. Should a British public welcome a Chancellor who fedls

:41:09. > :41:12.daunted? I think it's perfectly realistic. I mean, when the next

:41:13. > :41:16.general election comes along, you will have had five years of frankly

:41:17. > :41:19.the wrong policies. So it's going to be a big, big task. But I think

:41:20. > :41:23.Caroline's right. Energy prhces are an issue. That's why we want to see

:41:24. > :41:27.a freeze. OK. Thank you. Still to come, the UKIP leader Nigel

:41:28. > :41:30.Farage under attack. Ridiculed at the Liberal Democrat conferdnce in a

:41:31. > :41:33.send`up that's gone viral on the internet. Then rounded on in the

:41:34. > :41:38.European Parliament by a former colleague. We'll have much, much

:41:39. > :41:44.more on all this coming up ` little later.

:41:45. > :41:48.Well, now, "To build more homes in sensible places. Making the most of

:41:49. > :41:51.every inch of brownfield land". That's the declared intent of the

:41:52. > :41:55.Communities Secretary, Eric Pickles. And yet, time and time again, we

:41:56. > :41:57.hear there's a dash by developers for greenfield sites, while

:41:58. > :41:59.brownfield ones lie untouchdd. Here's our BBC Stoke Political

:42:00. > :42:12.Reporter Phil McCann. It was all meant to look so

:42:13. > :42:18.different. Where neighbours once lived, now dereliction. Thotsands of

:42:19. > :42:20.terraced homes were meant to be knocked down across Stoke`on`Trent

:42:21. > :42:27.under the national Pathfinddr programme. People come down here and

:42:28. > :42:31.see these here. Then they sde that round the corner, and they don't

:42:32. > :42:35.want to buy these. There is such an eyesore around the corner. This was

:42:36. > :42:38.the vision of the future. A rejuvenated housing market that has

:42:39. > :42:41.been realised in some parts of the city. But elsewhere, the terraces

:42:42. > :42:45.have gone, but locals are still waiting for developers to move in.

:42:46. > :42:49.It would make a lot of diffdrence, because it would make the area look

:42:50. > :42:53.nice. And you would have a lot more people living around here. Hn 2 03,

:42:54. > :42:56.leaders here in North Staffordshire hoped their renewal scheme would

:42:57. > :43:00.lead to the demolition of around 14,500 houses. But when the

:43:01. > :43:03.government scrapped the schdme three years ago, fewer than 2000 have

:43:04. > :43:07.actually been knocked down. But they also hoped it would lead to the

:43:08. > :43:13.rebuilding of around 12,500 homes. But by 2011, only a few hundred had

:43:14. > :43:18.been completed. There is finally progress, though.

:43:19. > :43:22.On this site, 140 homes are being built where once terraces stood We

:43:23. > :43:29.are able to provide local investment in the economy. We are provhding

:43:30. > :43:33.seven new apprentices. 50% of the labour on`site will be from local

:43:34. > :43:37.community. We are investing in community projects. It helps

:43:38. > :43:40.regenerate the area as well as providing good quality houshng. The

:43:41. > :43:43.City Council in Stoke`on`Trdnt insists things are finally looking

:43:44. > :43:47.up. But admits developing ddrelict brownfield land is difficult. We

:43:48. > :43:50.know that there are more attractive sites, like the greenfield, but we

:43:51. > :43:53.know that we've got lots of brownfield sites. It's about how we

:43:54. > :43:58.make them more attractive to developers. The problem for places

:43:59. > :44:00.like Stoke`on`Trent is placds like this in nearby Newcastle`under`Lyme,

:44:01. > :44:03.where developers would rathdr build after the government changed

:44:04. > :44:08.planning rules. A recent proposal here was refused. But the fdar is

:44:09. > :44:11.the builders will just try `gain. There are significant numbers of

:44:12. > :44:19.sites, both within the borotgh and more so in the city of

:44:20. > :44:22.Stoke`on`Trent. But all brownfield sites that are begging for

:44:23. > :44:25.redevelopment. Clearly, if xou go ahead and build on greenfields,

:44:26. > :44:28.these sites will remain vac`nt and will be a blight on the landscape.

:44:29. > :44:32.Developers applying for planning permission are represented by

:44:33. > :44:36.companies like this one. So should the government intervene? The

:44:37. > :44:39.government needs to have a programme over and above its affordable

:44:40. > :44:42.programme, which is important. But a programme to get brownfield land

:44:43. > :44:45.cracking again and get the balance of brownfield and greenfield that

:44:46. > :44:47.currently isn't there. The government insists planning policies

:44:48. > :44:55.prioritise brownfield development. But developers are finding ht easier

:44:56. > :44:58.to prioritise the countryside. Yes, the challenges of building new

:44:59. > :45:02.homes where they wanted and not where they are not. Phil McCann

:45:03. > :45:05.reporting there. Let's get `n expert view on this from a leading

:45:06. > :45:08.consultant on planning, regdneration and the preservation of the

:45:09. > :45:10.countryside. Gerald Kells h`s long experience working with, among

:45:11. > :45:14.others, the Campaign to Protect Rural England. We've seen there a

:45:15. > :45:17.variety of explanations for this apparent shortfall of brownfield

:45:18. > :45:22.development. As an expert in this field, what is your explanation for

:45:23. > :45:25.what is happening? I think one of the bigger fundamental problems is

:45:26. > :45:28.this obsession with very long` term housing numbers. That forces local

:45:29. > :45:32.authorities to allocate large amounts of greenfield land. We had

:45:33. > :45:36.it under the regional space strategy. We were supposed to get

:45:37. > :45:42.rid of it. It still seems to linger on. The other issue that was raised

:45:43. > :45:45.there was about where is thd money to support brownfield development?

:45:46. > :45:49.We've seen in Stoke` on`Trent the loss of one form of funding. Places

:45:50. > :45:53.like the Black Country despdrately need jobs for local people, building

:45:54. > :46:02.local houses. We need to have that as well as the right planning rules.

:46:03. > :46:05.I'm not sure we're at a point where we can say that really brownfield

:46:06. > :46:08.land is getting prioritised over greenfield. And there are obvious

:46:09. > :46:11.difficulties, from the point of view of developers, often the cost of

:46:12. > :46:16.demolition. Sometimes this can involve contaminated land as well.

:46:17. > :46:20.So, in a way, you can understand if there is a greater attraction in

:46:21. > :46:23.simple greenfield development. Quite obviously, there are advant`ges in

:46:24. > :46:26.developing on a greenfield site You have to incentivise develophng on

:46:27. > :46:34.brownfield land. But it is not entirely that. There has bedn a long

:46:35. > :46:37.history over the lobbying that has been done by house` building

:46:38. > :46:41.interests to get greenfield land allocated. And once it is allocated,

:46:42. > :46:44.to have the easier option. @nd that is something which is very worrying

:46:45. > :46:47.with them the National Planning Policy Framework and the wax it is

:46:48. > :46:51.actually working out in Loc`l Authorities. And the pressure they

:46:52. > :46:58.are being put on to allocatd greenfield land. And yet, in

:46:59. > :47:02.Caroline's constituency, in North Solihull.

:47:03. > :47:09.In Richard's Longbridge, possibly one of the biggest brownfield sites

:47:10. > :47:13.of all, there has been a lot of both new build and refurbishment of

:47:14. > :47:18.existing stock. Yeah, some of that is hangovers from the past. But some

:47:19. > :47:22.of that is new and very valtable. But we are also seeing other things

:47:23. > :47:25.working against that. The government makes a very strong statement

:47:26. > :47:28.recently about green belt. But greenfield land which is outside the

:47:29. > :47:32.protected green belt has bedn very vulnerable. And you can see that

:47:33. > :47:33.across areas like Staffordshire and Warwickshire. I mentioned

:47:34. > :47:36.Longbridge, Richard, becausd in your constituency there, the govdrnment

:47:37. > :47:39.policy clearly does appear to be working. Well, I mean, therd are

:47:40. > :47:43.2000 houses being built there. And that is good news. But we rdally do

:47:44. > :47:46.need to get house` building going faster. And I think there are

:47:47. > :47:50.different ways we can do th`t. That's why we've set up this special

:47:51. > :47:53.commission to look at this. But one of the things we've got to get

:47:54. > :47:56.through to developers, something which Gerald was alluding to, is

:47:57. > :48:01.there's got to be that they have to know that, in a sense, if they don't

:48:02. > :48:04.use it, they are going to lose it. We've got to make sure that sites

:48:05. > :48:07.that could be developed for housing, and are sustainable, and th`t is

:48:08. > :48:11.important, actually are devdloped. Not just sitting there waithng for

:48:12. > :48:14.the price to go up. Eric Pickles walks the walk, talks the t`lk. Says

:48:15. > :48:17.he wants to see brownfield development. But under his watch,

:48:18. > :48:21.the record shows that it's just not catching up with where it ndeds to

:48:22. > :48:24.be, brownfield. Well, there is an enormous downtown in the hotsing

:48:25. > :48:27.market. And one of the big problems is that people were overstrdtched

:48:28. > :48:30.financially and the banks are reluctant to lend. But set `gainst

:48:31. > :48:32.that, right through that financial crisis, we've been building

:48:33. > :48:35.affordable homes in Solihull. Eric Pickles' department has givdn

:48:36. > :48:39.Solihull Council ?9 million worth of loan to get this programme going.

:48:40. > :48:42.But isn't it a drop in the bucket by comparison with the scale of the

:48:43. > :48:45.problem we've got? There ard actually a thousand extra homes in a

:48:46. > :48:50.borough where we've got housing waiting lists. The important point

:48:51. > :48:54.about regenerating council dstates, and you can do it anywhere hn the

:48:55. > :48:57.country, you can do that in Birmingham, is that the land values

:48:58. > :49:00.are sufficiently low that you can deliver affordable housing. Of

:49:01. > :49:03.course the developers want to build on greenfield, because they can sell

:49:04. > :49:08.expensive homes with a lovely view in greenfield sites. But wh`t isn't

:49:09. > :49:13.in place is no infrastructure. The advantage of a brownfield shte is

:49:14. > :49:16.the infrastructure is already there. It is usually close to work, to

:49:17. > :49:20.jobs, and a more sustainabld solution. Does that sound rdasonable

:49:21. > :49:24.before we go back to Gerald? I think that is fair. It is important we

:49:25. > :49:28.prioritise brownfield, but we got to be doing it in practice. And this is

:49:29. > :49:31.where I think another thing Gerald said is right. House`building has

:49:32. > :49:34.got to be linked to employmdnt creation. It's got to be linked to,

:49:35. > :49:38.in the jargon, regeneration. If we do that, we can get things going.

:49:39. > :49:42.But we haven't seen enough of that in the last few years. Quickly. And

:49:43. > :49:46.councils who do build more homes for people get a new homes bonus. And

:49:47. > :49:49.that is an incentive to regdnerate these sites. Final word on this to

:49:50. > :49:53.you, Gerald. If you ruled the world, what is your position? GERALD

:49:54. > :49:57.LAUGHS. The new homes bonus doesn't just go if they build on brownfield

:49:58. > :50:01.land, it goes wherever they build. So that doesn't get us out of this

:50:02. > :50:05.kind of conundrum. But one of the real issues is that if you go out to

:50:06. > :50:08.some of our villages around the area, and they are being intndated

:50:09. > :50:10.with applications to build, because of the allowances in the National

:50:11. > :50:14.Planning Policy Framework. Clearly, we could proceed further. Btt very

:50:15. > :50:17.briefly... Very important for all listeners is that, if a loc`l plan

:50:18. > :50:21.is in place to protect the villages, that's the most important thing

:50:22. > :50:24.That's it. Time is up. If they get it through. Thank you very luch

:50:25. > :50:29.Particular thanks to you, Gdrald, for being here today.

:50:30. > :50:32.Right, two months to go to the European elections. And, surprise

:50:33. > :50:35.surprise, UKIP are having the heat turned up on them. First thd Lib

:50:36. > :50:38.Dems attacked the "negative politics" of the smiling man

:50:39. > :50:42.drinking a pint and smoking a cigarette. Then a local MEP, who

:50:43. > :50:45.split from UKIP just months after being elected, rounded on Nhgel

:50:46. > :50:49.Farage's use of taxpayers' loney in the European Parliament. Elhzabeth

:50:50. > :50:55.Glinka explains. There now follows a partly satirical

:50:56. > :50:58.broadcast by the Liberal Delocrats. Solihull MP, Lorely Burt, pdrformed

:50:59. > :51:02.her own unique impersonation of the UKIP leader Nigel Farage at the

:51:03. > :51:05.party's conference in York. Complete with mask, pint of beer and

:51:06. > :51:14.obligatory cigarette. Hello, everybody. LAUGHTER. Nige hdre!

:51:15. > :51:18.I'm looking for my mate Nick. The clip has gone viral, with

:51:19. > :51:21.thousands of internet hits so far. Her Conservative opponent in next

:51:22. > :51:23.year's general election, Julian Knight, described her efforts as

:51:24. > :51:29.embarrassing. UKIP supporters called it petty. That was relatively gentle

:51:30. > :51:40.compared to what followed from West Midlands MEP, Nikki Sinclaire, in

:51:41. > :51:43.the European Parliament. Mr Farage, with unemployment still a problem

:51:44. > :51:47.across Europe and indeed thd UK does Mr Farage think it's a fair use

:51:48. > :51:50.of taxpayers' money, namely his secretarial allowance, to elploy not

:51:51. > :51:53.only his wife Kirsten, but his former mistress Annabel Fuller? Is

:51:54. > :51:58.this a responsible use of t`xpayers' money, Mr Farage? I don't sde any

:51:59. > :52:02.need to answer that at all. UKIP later added the comments were

:52:03. > :52:06.beneath contempt. Miss Fulldr said the allegations were false. Nikki

:52:07. > :52:09.Sinclaire is also currently the subject of an inquiry by West

:52:10. > :52:11.Midlands Police into accusations that she conspired to defratd the

:52:12. > :52:19.European Parliament over her expenses. An accusation she denies.

:52:20. > :52:24.Nikki Sinclaire, who'll be standing for her We Demand a Referendum Now

:52:25. > :52:27.party in the European electhons And, Caroline, in a way, thhs

:52:28. > :52:31.demonstrates that both Lorely and Nicki can go after Nigel Farage in a

:52:32. > :52:34.way that maybe your party is reluctant to? Because it dods have a

:52:35. > :52:38.habit of rebounding against the Tories when they go for UKIP in the

:52:39. > :52:42.past? That is something important to go for here. Voters in the West

:52:43. > :52:47.Midlands, in good faith, voted UKIP at the last set of European

:52:48. > :52:51.elections. And both UKIP MEPs have split from their party, takhng the

:52:52. > :52:56.funds of a member of the European Parliament to set up their own

:52:57. > :53:02.party. `` of a European party. I think that's a betrayal of trust.

:53:03. > :53:05.And I think people should think hard about that when they vote in the

:53:06. > :53:09.next European election. UKIP is a protest party. It takes frol all the

:53:10. > :53:12.parties. But I think the important point is, uniquely here in the West

:53:13. > :53:16.Midlands, those UKIP MEPs pdople thought they voted for are no longer

:53:17. > :53:19.UKIP. Well, there will be plenty of opportunity for UKIP and thd other

:53:20. > :53:22.two parties we're talking about here to have their say in the cotrse of

:53:23. > :53:26.the forthcoming campaign. Btt Richard, maybe you are not too keen

:53:27. > :53:30.to have a go at UKIP too hard? Because it might be in your party's

:53:31. > :53:33.interests for them to do re`sonably well this summer? It's cert`inly

:53:34. > :53:37.true the Conservatives have got a UKIP problem. And that is why.. You

:53:38. > :53:41.have as well. That is why you see the Prime Minister trying to play to

:53:42. > :53:44.the party's right wing. But I think that, as far as UKIP is concerned,

:53:45. > :53:48.we do need to understand wh`t they are. There was a councillor recently

:53:49. > :53:52.that, for goodness sake, was blaming the winter floods on gay marriage.

:53:53. > :53:56.It is a pretty weird party. If you are going to have a go at the Prime

:53:57. > :54:00.Minister, I suppose maybe they can go back at you and say Ed Mhliband

:54:01. > :54:03.is still on the fence. Becatse, in a way, what we have seen this week is

:54:04. > :54:07.a compromise from Ed Miliband between those in the party who

:54:08. > :54:10.really feel that they don't want to be distracted in government by the

:54:11. > :54:14.European issue. And the othdrs that feel we've got to say something to

:54:15. > :54:17.the electorate, because people think it is a metropolitan elite hn the

:54:18. > :54:22.party that looks out of touch. Yes, what Ed Miliband did this wdek was

:54:23. > :54:26.to tell it as it is. What wd said is that, if there is going to be a

:54:27. > :54:29.transfer of powers to the Etropean Union, there would be a refdrendum.

:54:30. > :54:33.Is that likely? Probably not. I mean, that is simply telling it as

:54:34. > :54:36.it is and I think it is realistic policy. Interestingly as well, it's

:54:37. > :54:39.been welcomed by most of thd wealth creators in this country. OK,

:54:40. > :54:43.briefly, Caroline, ructions in your party if you come behind UKHP and

:54:44. > :54:46.Labour in the summer election? I think it is going to be a dhfficult

:54:47. > :54:50.set of European elections. We need to be clear about that. Bec`use

:54:51. > :54:54.people tend to use it as a protest vote. But also, the turnout goes

:54:55. > :54:57.right down, down below 10% hn some parts of my constituency. I would

:54:58. > :55:01.just urge people to think h`rd about this. 50% of our exports ard to the

:55:02. > :55:05.European Union. And to focus really on this question of who you want to

:55:06. > :55:08.represent you. OK, thank yot. Well, suddenly it's "Greater

:55:09. > :55:14.Birmingham" this. "Greater Birmingham" that. The Greatdr

:55:15. > :55:16.Birmingham Chambers of Commdrce Greater Birmingham Professional

:55:17. > :55:18.Services Academy. And most significantly, the Greater

:55:19. > :55:21.Birmingham and Solihull Loc`l Enterprise Partnership. And it was

:55:22. > :55:25.their chairman, Andy Street, who explained in the Telegraph on Sunday

:55:26. > :55:36.why he wanted to get rid of that "second city" tag.

:55:37. > :55:43.Richard, as a Birmingham MP, is Greater Birmingham going to fly as

:55:44. > :55:48.an idea? I hear people in the Black Country say, "Hands off, Birmingham!

:55:49. > :55:52.No more land grabs, thank you." I think the key thing is th`t, in

:55:53. > :55:56.this region, we've got to work together. And I've got to s`y Andy

:55:57. > :56:00.Street and the local enterprise partnership have been doing a good

:56:01. > :56:03.job on that. And we maybe do need to get over something of a hang`up with

:56:04. > :56:07.titles. If you look at Manchester, the fact that the city of M`nchester

:56:08. > :56:10.geographically has got Salford as part of it. They don't see

:56:11. > :56:13.themselves as rivals on that. They see themselves as part of a Greater

:56:14. > :56:18.Manchester project. And I think we can do the same in this part of the

:56:19. > :56:21.Midlands. Caroline, you are someone that's taken a long interest in

:56:22. > :56:25.these local government structures thereof. Are we saying, in ` way,

:56:26. > :56:30.maybe Birmingham is too big for some things? Like children's services

:56:31. > :56:33.notoriously. Maybe too small for, say, Digby Jones' vision of the

:56:34. > :56:36.wider West Midlands and the structural planning and transport

:56:37. > :56:39.that looks at wider region? It's not easy for the surrounding sm`ller

:56:40. > :56:44.local authorities to work together with such a huge local authority.

:56:45. > :56:47.The largest in the land. But I think they've chosen to be part of the

:56:48. > :56:49.Greater Birmingham and Solihull Local Economic Partnership

:56:50. > :56:54.demonstrating they want to work together. But they will want to keep

:56:55. > :56:57.their identities separate and clear. I mean, of the most important

:56:58. > :57:00.regional, indeed national, `ssets are in Solihull. Birmingham Airport,

:57:01. > :57:05.for example. The NEC. so wotld you support the idea in principle? A

:57:06. > :57:08.quick idea from each of you on that? I think that it should be Greater

:57:09. > :57:12.Birmingham and Solihull. Solihull is the engine room in the West Midlands

:57:13. > :57:15.economy. I'm a Solihull Borough MP. You would expect me to say that

:57:16. > :57:18.Richard? I think we can havd the title and we can still have the

:57:19. > :57:21.identities for Solihull and elsewhere. Interestingly, the thing

:57:22. > :57:25.about Birmingham's size. Th`t's why devolution inside Birminghal is

:57:26. > :57:28.important. I say that as a Birmingham MP. Interesting stuff.

:57:29. > :57:31.Thank you very much indeed for the moment.

:57:32. > :57:34.Well, let's catch`up with more of the political developments that have

:57:35. > :57:38.been making the news over the past seven days. Our regular round`up in

:57:39. > :57:47.60 Seconds is brought to us this week by BBC Midlands Today's Sarah

:57:48. > :57:49.Falkland. Medical professionals in Shropshire

:57:50. > :57:53.are suggesting a brand`new hospital with a state`of`the art acchdent and

:57:54. > :57:55.emergency unit could be built as part of changes to the NHS hn the

:57:56. > :57:58.county. Around 20,000 new jobs could be

:57:59. > :58:01.created in Staffordshire after a ?20 million City Deal was agreed between

:58:02. > :58:03.the government and local authorities.

:58:04. > :58:07.Plans for Muslim cemetery in Solihull have been withdrawn. More

:58:08. > :58:11.than 160 objections were made about the application to build thd private

:58:12. > :58:17.cemetery near Catherine`de`Barnes. 20mph speed limits are to bd rolled

:58:18. > :58:19.out in parts of Birmingham. In keeping with the spirit of the

:58:20. > :58:24.policy, it's being introducdd slowly, starting in the citx centre.

:58:25. > :58:27.And a protest at Westminster as MPs again debated the Gloucestershire

:58:28. > :58:34.and Somerset badger cull. It was deemed ineffective by indepdndent

:58:35. > :58:38.scientific assessors. And this well`known Brummie bird`watcher

:58:39. > :58:41.isn't impressed. I seriouslx think this government is one of the

:58:42. > :58:47.biggest enemies of the Brithsh countryside and its wildlifd that

:58:48. > :58:51.there has ever been. Bill Oddie clearly not a fan,

:58:52. > :58:54.Caroline. If you were still Environment Secretary, would you

:58:55. > :58:58.have done this badger cull differently from how Owen P`terson

:58:59. > :59:02.is handling it? I made the original decision, because there are no easy

:59:03. > :59:05.answers. There is no vaccind that will survive being consumed by the

:59:06. > :59:11.badger to vaccinate it against TB. There is no easy answer. Me`nwhile,

:59:12. > :59:15.we are putting down 28,000 cows a year at a cost to the taxpaxer of

:59:16. > :59:22.?100 million. It's a very dhfficult one. Is there a serious risk here?

:59:23. > :59:26.We have had the terrible history of the beef ban. Is there a danger of a

:59:27. > :59:30.similar thing happening to dairy products? The problem is, if you

:59:31. > :59:34.vaccinate cattle, we would not be able to export it, because ht masks

:59:35. > :59:38.the disease. So really, my successor is between a rock and a hard place.

:59:39. > :59:41.Nowhere else in the world h`s TB been eliminated from cattle without

:59:42. > :59:44.also tackling it in the wildlife population. What would you say to

:59:45. > :59:47.Bill Oddie, who thinks that your government's record on the

:59:48. > :59:51.countryside generally is terrible? I wouldn't agree. That's a swdeping

:59:52. > :59:54.statement and ignores the f`ct that they introduced the first n`tural

:59:55. > :59:57.environment White Paper for 20 years. Biodiversity offsetthng,

:59:58. > :00:01.which I'm sure Bill is all hn favour of. Nobody wants to kill badgers. We

:00:02. > :00:05.love badgers. But we have also got to eradicate the disease. Briefly,

:00:06. > :00:08.as a town MP, are you one of these urban MPs who know little and care

:00:09. > :00:11.less about the badger cull, Richard? I am also on the fringe of the

:00:12. > :00:15.countryside in Longbridge, of course. But TB is a dreadful

:00:16. > :00:18.disease, TB in cattle, no qtestion. But the badger cull was not

:00:19. > :00:23.effective, is not effective, and all too often can be cruel. And that is

:00:24. > :00:26.why I voted against carrying on with the badger cull. OK, let's leave it

:00:27. > :00:32.there. Thank you both very luch indeed. My thanks to Caroline

:00:33. > :00:36.Spelman and Richard Burden. Coming up later this week, the man

:00:37. > :00:40.responsible for health care across a great swathe of our area will be in

:00:41. > :00:42.the hot seat. Neil Carr, Ch`irman of the South Staffordshire and

:00:43. > :00:45.Shropshire NHS Trust, will be joining Jim Hawkins on BBC Radio

:00:46. > :00:49.Shropshire. That's on Thursday morning from ten o'clock. I'm sure

:00:50. > :00:52.there will be plenty to talk about on BBC Shropshire. This, though is

:00:53. > :01:00.where we rejoin Andrew Neil. industrial action is a sign of

:01:01. > :01:10.failure marked success. -- not success. Andrew, back to you.

:01:11. > :01:15.Has George Osborne got a rabbit in his Budget hat? Will the Chancellor

:01:16. > :01:16.find a way to help the squeezed middle? And how do Labour respond?

:01:17. > :01:27.All questions for The Week Ahead. And joining Helen, Janan and Nick to

:01:28. > :01:30.discuss the budget is the general secretary of the Trades Union

:01:31. > :01:35.Congress Frances O'Grady. Welcome back to the programme. I know the

:01:36. > :01:38.TUC has a submission, but if you could pick one thing that you wanted

:01:39. > :01:45.the Chancellor to do above all, what would it be? We want a budget for

:01:46. > :01:49.working people, which means we have to crack the long-term problem of

:01:50. > :01:56.investment in the British economy. Certainly I would like the

:01:57. > :02:00.Chancellor to merit that title they want of the new workers party, and

:02:01. > :02:09.take action on living standards but if they're going to do that it's got

:02:10. > :02:14.to be about unlocking investment. In the period where the economy has

:02:15. > :02:17.been flat-lining there has been little business investment, but

:02:18. > :02:23.there are signs towards the end of last year that it is beginning to

:02:24. > :02:26.pick up. But a long way to go. The problem is we have key industries

:02:27. > :02:31.like construction and manufacturing that are still smaller than they

:02:32. > :02:35.were before the recession. The government itself, of course, has

:02:36. > :02:41.slashed its own capital investment budget by half. There is plenty of

:02:42. > :02:45.good and important work that needs to be done from building houses to

:02:46. > :02:50.improving the transport system, to improving our schools. And the

:02:51. > :02:55.government really needs to pick up that shovel and start investing in

:02:56. > :02:59.our economy to get the decent jobs we need, the pay increases we need,

:03:00. > :03:07.and that in itself will help stimulate demand. It was Alistair

:03:08. > :03:10.Darling who cut in 2011, and it s interesting that Ed Balls in his

:03:11. > :03:14.plans for the next parliament would run a current budget surplus by the

:03:15. > :03:18.end of the parliament as opposed to George Osborne who would have an

:03:19. > :03:23.overall budget surplus. That gives Ed Balls or -- more wriggle room to

:03:24. > :03:27.do what you talk about, but he is reticent to talk about it. He does

:03:28. > :03:30.not want to say that he has an opportunity to spend on investment

:03:31. > :03:32.because he fears if he says it he will be attacked by the

:03:33. > :03:40.Conservatives for being irresponsible. Why is business doing

:03:41. > :03:43.this? The recession was deeper than any since the war and the recovery

:03:44. > :03:49.was slower than almost any since the war. The lag, the time it takes to

:03:50. > :03:56.get over that is longer than anyone expected. I read the same evidence

:03:57. > :03:58.as you towards the end of last year pointing to money being released,

:03:59. > :04:03.and it depends what it is released on, whether it is capital investment

:04:04. > :04:07.or bringing in people on higher wages. The one surprise in the

:04:08. > :04:12.downturn is how well the employment figures have done, but they have not

:04:13. > :04:15.invested in new capacity and they are sitting on a lot of dosh. I

:04:16. > :04:22.looked at one set of figures that said if you took the biggest company

:04:23. > :04:25.in Britain, they have about 715 billion pounds in corporate treasury

:04:26. > :04:32.-- the biggest companies. I think it's reduced a little but they are

:04:33. > :04:36.sitting on a mountain in dash of skills. Yes, but they're not

:04:37. > :04:40.investing in skills, wages, or sustainable jobs. The new jobs we

:04:41. > :04:46.have seen created since 2010, the vast majority of them have been in

:04:47. > :04:51.low paid industries, and they are often zero hours, or insecure, or

:04:52. > :04:56.part-time. So it's not delivering a recovery for ordinary working

:04:57. > :04:59.people. Government ministers, as you know when you lobby them, they are

:05:00. > :05:04.anxious to make out that they know the job is not done and the recovery

:05:05. > :05:09.has just begun, but the one bit they are privately proud of, although

:05:10. > :05:14.they can't explain it, is how many private-sector jobs have been

:05:15. > :05:17.created. A lot of unions have done sensible deals with employers to

:05:18. > :05:22.protect jobs through this period, but it's not sustainable. The

:05:23. > :05:27.average worker in Britain today is now ?2000 a year worse off in real

:05:28. > :05:36.terms than they were. On a pay against price comparison? It doesn't

:05:37. > :05:45.take into account tax cuts. The raising of the personal allowance is

:05:46. > :05:48.far outweighed by the raising VAT. Does the raising of the threshold

:05:49. > :05:51.which the Lib Dems are proud of and the Tories are trying to trade

:05:52. > :05:57.credit for, does it matter to your members? -- take credit for. It

:05:58. > :06:01.matters that it is eclipsed by the cuts in benefits and know what is

:06:02. > :06:05.conned any more. We're going to hear a lot about the raising of the

:06:06. > :06:11.allowance, but as long as the real value of work, tax credits, things

:06:12. > :06:14.like that, people won't feel it in their pocket, and they will find it

:06:15. > :06:17.harder and harder to look after their family. When you look at the

:06:18. > :06:22.other things that could take over from consumer spending which has

:06:23. > :06:25.driven the recovery, held by house price rising in the south, it is

:06:26. > :06:28.exports and business investment and you look at the state of the

:06:29. > :06:33.Eurozone and the emerging markets which are now in trouble, and the

:06:34. > :06:38.winter seems to have derailed the US recovery. It won't be exports.

:06:39. > :06:46.Indeed, the Obie Eich does not think that will contribute to growth until

:06:47. > :06:52.2015 -- OBI. So the figures we should be looking at our business

:06:53. > :06:56.investment. And also the deficit. The deficit is 111 billion, and that

:06:57. > :07:01.is a problem, because we are not at the end of the cutting process,

:07:02. > :07:05.there are huge cuts to be made. I understand we are only a third of

:07:06. > :07:09.the way through. That will definitely affect business

:07:10. > :07:12.confidence. It is clear that the strategy has failed. Borrowing has

:07:13. > :07:16.gone up and it's not delivered improved living standards and better

:07:17. > :07:22.quality jobs, so cutting out of the recession is not going to work. The

:07:23. > :07:28.structural budget deficit was going to be eliminated three weeks today

:07:29. > :07:33.under the original plan. They missed target after target. Every economist

:07:34. > :07:37.has their own definition of that. I think Mark Carney is right when he

:07:38. > :07:41.says that fundamentally the economy is unbalanced and it is not

:07:42. > :07:49.sustainable, growth is not sustainable. But if it clicked on,

:07:50. > :07:52.it would be more balanced. It is not just north and south and

:07:53. > :07:58.manufacturing a way out with services, but it is also between the

:07:59. > :08:01.rich and everybody else. What do you make of the fact that there will

:08:02. > :08:06.effectively be another freezing public sector pay, or at least no

:08:07. > :08:14.more than 1%? Not even that for nurses and health workers. But they

:08:15. > :08:18.will get 3% progression pay. 70 of nurses will not get any pay rise at

:08:19. > :08:24.all. They get no progression pay at all. I think this is smack in the

:08:25. > :08:28.mouth. Smack in the mouth to dedicated health care workers who

:08:29. > :08:33.will feel very, very discontented about the decision. Danny

:08:34. > :08:38.Alexander, I saw him appealing to health workers do not move to strike

:08:39. > :08:44.ballots and said they should talk to their department. But about what? Is

:08:45. > :08:50.that real pay cut has been imposed, what are workers left with? So do

:08:51. > :08:57.you expect as a result of yet more tough controls on public sector pay

:08:58. > :09:01.that unrest is inevitable? I know some unions will be consulting with

:09:02. > :09:06.their members, but ultimately it's always members who decide what to

:09:07. > :09:11.do. It does seem to me insulting not to at least be honest and say that

:09:12. > :09:18.we are cutting real pay of nurses, health care workers, on the back of

:09:19. > :09:24.a ?3 billion reorganisation of the NHS that nobody wanted and nobody

:09:25. > :09:29.voted for. Their long-term changes taking place here that almost talks

:09:30. > :09:37.about -- there are long-term changes. It is how lower percentage

:09:38. > :09:40.wages have become of GDP on how big the percentage of profits is. It

:09:41. > :09:46.seems to me there is a strong case for some kind of realignment there.

:09:47. > :09:50.The biggest event of my life, in this world, is the entry of a couple

:09:51. > :09:53.of billion more people into the labour supply. At the end of the

:09:54. > :09:58.Cold War, India and China plugged into the global economy. If there is

:09:59. > :10:01.a greater supply of that factor of production, logically you conclude

:10:02. > :10:06.that wages will fall or stagnate and that has been the story in this

:10:07. > :10:09.country and America and large parts of Western Europe in the last

:10:10. > :10:14.generation. What is not possible is for governments to do much about

:10:15. > :10:16.it. They can ameliorate it at the margins, but the idea that the

:10:17. > :10:20.government controls living standards, which has become popular

:10:21. > :10:25.over the last six months, and the Labour Party have in establishing

:10:26. > :10:29.that, and I don't think it's true. George Osborne's options are

:10:30. > :10:34.astonishingly limited compared to public expectations. If wages have

:10:35. > :10:40.reached a modern record low as percentage of GDP, who is going to

:10:41. > :10:46.champion the wage earner? We have lost Bob Crow, Tony Benn passed

:10:47. > :10:51.away, so who is the champion? The trade union movement is the champion

:10:52. > :10:57.of ordinary workers. We need those larger-than-life figures that we

:10:58. > :11:01.will mess. Have you got them yet? We have a generation of workers coming

:11:02. > :11:05.through. One thing about the loss of Bob Crow is that the whole union

:11:06. > :11:09.movement has responded strongly to that, and we want to say that we are

:11:10. > :11:14.strong and united and here to stand up for working people and we will

:11:15. > :11:18.fight as hard as Bob Crow did. Whoever replaces Bob Crow or Tony

:11:19. > :11:22.Benn, we can be sure they will not come from Eton because they all have

:11:23. > :11:25.jobs in the government. I want to put up on the screen what even

:11:26. > :11:35.Michael Gove was saying about this coterie of Old Etonian 's.

:11:36. > :11:44.He's right, is he not? He's absolutely right. We have the idea

:11:45. > :11:50.of the manifesto being written by five people from Eton and one from

:11:51. > :11:54.Saint Pauls. A remarkable example of social mobility that George Osborne,

:11:55. > :11:59.who had the disadvantage of going to Saint Pauls has made it into that

:12:00. > :12:04.inner circle. Here is the question, what is Michael Gove up to? If you

:12:05. > :12:07.saw the response from George Osborne, there was no slap down and

:12:08. > :12:11.they know this is an area they are weak on an David Cameron will not

:12:12. > :12:15.comment on it. If this had been a Labour shadow minister making a

:12:16. > :12:20.similarly disloyal statement, they might have been shot at dawn. But

:12:21. > :12:25.there is a real tolerance from Michael Gove to go freelance which

:12:26. > :12:27.comes from George Osborne. It's about highlighting educational

:12:28. > :12:31.reforms that he wants to turn every school in to eat and so it won't

:12:32. > :12:35.happen in the future. But it's also pointing out who did not go to Eton

:12:36. > :12:38.school and who would be the best candidate to replace David Cameron

:12:39. > :12:42.as leader, George Osborne, and who did go to Eton school, Boris

:12:43. > :12:50.Johnson. Michael Gove is on manoeuvres to destroy Boris

:12:51. > :12:54.Johnson's chances of being leader. It's a good job they don't have an

:12:55. > :12:59.election to worry about. Hold on. I think they are out of touch with

:13:00. > :13:03.businesses as well as working people. You ask about who is talking

:13:04. > :13:06.about wage earners. Businesses are. They are worried that unless living

:13:07. > :13:12.standards rise again there will be nobody there to buy anything. We are

:13:13. > :13:18.running out of time, but the TUC, are enthusiastic about HS2? We

:13:19. > :13:22.supported. We think it's the kind of infrastructure project that we need

:13:23. > :13:26.to invest in long-term. He could, if we get it right, rebalance north and

:13:27. > :13:33.south and create good jobs along the way -- it could. Thank you very much

:13:34. > :13:37.tool. I have to say that every week -- thank you very much to you all.

:13:38. > :13:41.That's all for today. I'll be back next Sunday at 11am, and Jo Coburn

:13:42. > :13:46.will be on BBC Two tomorrow at midday with the Daily Politics.

:13:47. > :13:48.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.