:00:37. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:47. > :00:50.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:51. > :00:53.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:54. > :00:59.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:01:00. > :01:01.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:02. > :01:06.They could be heading for In the Midlands, you cannot then our
:01:07. > :01:16.local services. In London, changes to the authority
:01:17. > :01:19.which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political
:01:20. > :01:25.move designed to silence his critics.
:01:26. > :01:29.And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the
:01:30. > :01:34.business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.
:01:35. > :01:38.But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest
:01:39. > :01:46.and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,
:01:47. > :01:52.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:53. > :01:55.Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been
:01:56. > :01:58.unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the
:01:59. > :02:03.rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister
:02:04. > :02:08.spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the
:02:09. > :02:13.Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence
:02:14. > :02:16.campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when
:02:17. > :02:21.the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were
:02:22. > :02:24.going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that
:02:25. > :02:26.campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in
:02:27. > :02:37.Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.
:02:38. > :02:43.Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no
:02:44. > :02:51.campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have
:02:52. > :02:56.got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have
:02:57. > :03:01.got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we
:03:02. > :03:06.are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the
:03:07. > :03:10.possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think
:03:11. > :03:14.that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it
:03:15. > :03:17.against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a
:03:18. > :03:21.detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England
:03:22. > :03:25.Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would
:03:26. > :03:29.not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the
:03:30. > :03:33.permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is
:03:34. > :03:37.such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with
:03:38. > :03:44.it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the
:03:45. > :03:47.force of argument is very much against those of us who want to
:03:48. > :03:51.remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the
:03:52. > :03:55.day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a
:03:56. > :03:59.deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:04:00. > :04:05.nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 0
:04:06. > :04:08.years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in
:04:09. > :04:12.Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the
:04:13. > :04:19.UK. That is perfectly plausible isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is
:04:20. > :04:23.simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.
:04:24. > :04:26.What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials
:04:27. > :04:30.saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of
:04:31. > :04:37.England Wales, Northern Ireland any more than it is in the interests of
:04:38. > :04:44.people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not
:04:45. > :04:51.change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?
:04:52. > :04:55.I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe
:04:56. > :04:59.Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish
:05:00. > :05:03.Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not
:05:04. > :05:07.sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from
:05:08. > :05:12.Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have
:05:13. > :05:16.not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the
:05:17. > :05:28.questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too
:05:29. > :05:30.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:31. > :05:34.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:35. > :05:38.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:39. > :05:44.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes
:05:45. > :05:49.there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing
:05:50. > :05:56.a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which
:05:57. > :06:00.actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come
:06:01. > :06:03.September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to
:06:04. > :06:08.say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of
:06:09. > :06:14.the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll
:06:15. > :06:19.said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the
:06:20. > :06:24.don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you
:06:25. > :06:28.yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act
:06:29. > :06:34.together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,
:06:35. > :06:38.to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists
:06:39. > :06:42.could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the
:06:43. > :06:46.United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the
:06:47. > :06:50.polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,
:06:51. > :07:06.they think this will not happen It can happen. I have got to tell
:07:07. > :07:08.everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an
:07:09. > :07:11.enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their
:07:12. > :07:13.disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in
:07:14. > :07:18.football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what
:07:19. > :07:22.is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in
:07:23. > :07:29.place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.
:07:30. > :07:36.Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know
:07:37. > :07:42.what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to
:07:43. > :07:47.blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there
:07:48. > :07:54.will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.
:07:55. > :07:57.But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the
:07:58. > :08:01.deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls
:08:02. > :08:04.which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite
:08:05. > :08:10.rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down
:08:11. > :08:13.the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year not
:08:14. > :08:17.just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy
:08:18. > :08:22.negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving
:08:23. > :08:26.places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen
:08:27. > :08:30.then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts
:08:31. > :08:34.about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising
:08:35. > :08:38.that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow
:08:39. > :08:44.Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary
:08:45. > :08:48.union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in
:08:49. > :08:51.a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear
:08:52. > :08:57.submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,
:08:58. > :09:01.probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think
:09:02. > :09:05.whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If
:09:06. > :09:10.the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the
:09:11. > :09:13.currency because it is not in London's interests to have a
:09:14. > :09:17.rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not
:09:18. > :09:28.done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is
:09:29. > :09:31.different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on
:09:32. > :09:35.the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without
:09:36. > :09:39.any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if
:09:40. > :09:44.the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except
:09:45. > :09:50.it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go
:09:51. > :09:53.down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the
:09:54. > :09:57.financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would
:09:58. > :10:00.rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary
:10:01. > :10:04.of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much
:10:05. > :10:07.money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major
:10:08. > :10:12.parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is
:10:13. > :10:15.bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think
:10:16. > :10:20.that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex
:10:21. > :10:24.Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big
:10:25. > :10:31.establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my
:10:32. > :10:38.football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no
:10:39. > :10:43.vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left
:10:44. > :10:47.which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex
:10:48. > :10:54.Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding
:10:55. > :10:57.from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being
:10:58. > :11:01.incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not
:11:02. > :11:04.want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of
:11:05. > :11:08.million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a
:11:09. > :11:11.bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's
:11:12. > :11:19.very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.
:11:20. > :11:27.High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six
:11:28. > :11:34.energy companies account for 95 of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem
:11:35. > :11:39.said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price
:11:40. > :11:41.rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets
:11:42. > :11:46.authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken
:11:47. > :11:50.up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica
:11:51. > :11:54.made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if
:11:55. > :11:59.you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare
:12:00. > :12:03.margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a
:12:04. > :12:09.surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to
:12:10. > :12:14.historically low levels in 2016 according to Ofgem. Normally at
:12:15. > :12:19.around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that
:12:20. > :12:23.could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light
:12:24. > :12:29.switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me
:12:30. > :12:37.now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak
:12:38. > :12:42.winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2
:12:43. > :12:48.next winter or the winter after We will keep the lights on, that is for
:12:49. > :12:51.clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.
:12:52. > :12:55.The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day
:12:56. > :13:03.one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been
:13:04. > :13:07.billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now
:13:08. > :13:12.heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have
:13:13. > :13:18.been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,
:13:19. > :13:20.we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are
:13:21. > :13:26.showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done
:13:27. > :13:31.enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate
:13:32. > :13:34.huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline
:13:35. > :13:38.investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.
:13:39. > :13:43.None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter
:13:44. > :13:51.or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,
:13:52. > :13:58.or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.
:13:59. > :14:02.It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing
:14:03. > :14:07.anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are
:14:08. > :14:11.able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are
:14:12. > :14:17.connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we
:14:18. > :14:23.get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.
:14:24. > :14:29.You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last
:14:30. > :14:35.July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would
:14:36. > :14:41.not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on
:14:42. > :14:45.schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a
:14:46. > :14:52.single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the
:14:53. > :14:58.ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do
:14:59. > :15:02.an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of
:15:03. > :15:05.interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.
:15:06. > :15:09.There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that
:15:10. > :15:13.can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take
:15:14. > :15:18.and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.
:15:19. > :15:34.We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision
:15:35. > :15:36.will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North
:15:37. > :15:39.America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed
:15:40. > :15:48.plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a
:15:49. > :15:55.problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from
:15:56. > :15:58.2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be
:15:59. > :16:03.so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was
:16:04. > :16:06.cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've
:16:07. > :16:10.known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of
:16:11. > :16:13.their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to
:16:14. > :16:21.increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are
:16:22. > :16:24.closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you
:16:25. > :16:28.have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are
:16:29. > :16:32.coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased
:16:33. > :16:35.the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under
:16:36. > :16:40.the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the
:16:41. > :16:47.beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are
:16:48. > :16:52.historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a
:16:53. > :16:57.huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins
:16:58. > :17:03.between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is
:17:04. > :17:07.costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People
:17:08. > :17:11.have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a
:17:12. > :17:15.short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a
:17:16. > :17:16.long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between
:17:17. > :17:40.nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between
:17:41. > :17:48.on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has
:17:49. > :17:56.increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the
:17:57. > :18:00.report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been
:18:01. > :18:05.working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we
:18:06. > :18:09.have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on
:18:10. > :18:15.if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but
:18:16. > :18:19.demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to
:18:20. > :18:23.off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,
:18:24. > :18:27.and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the
:18:28. > :18:31.Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks
:18:32. > :18:34.for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around
:18:35. > :18:40.for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to
:18:41. > :18:43.expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into
:18:44. > :18:51.haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,
:18:52. > :18:56.dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at
:18:57. > :19:06.the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range
:19:07. > :19:11.of power companies who are building a new power station and want to
:19:12. > :19:14.build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100
:19:15. > :19:18.billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore
:19:19. > :19:22.capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the
:19:23. > :19:27.Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to
:19:28. > :19:32.expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We
:19:33. > :19:37.have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is
:19:38. > :19:42.happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say
:19:43. > :19:46.it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we
:19:47. > :19:51.have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at
:19:52. > :19:55.independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to
:19:56. > :19:58.invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore
:19:59. > :20:01.wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only
:20:02. > :20:06.countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker
:20:07. > :20:11.picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an
:20:12. > :20:16.investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.
:20:17. > :20:21.Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,
:20:22. > :20:24.only one started under your watch for the others were done under
:20:25. > :20:29.Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled
:20:30. > :20:32.back from further investment including new offshore wind
:20:33. > :20:37.investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020
:20:38. > :20:41.anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,
:20:42. > :20:45.the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I
:20:46. > :20:52.capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20,
:20:53. > :20:55.so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have
:20:56. > :21:00.no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.
:21:01. > :21:05.Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones
:21:06. > :21:09.you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a
:21:10. > :21:14.short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan
:21:15. > :21:17.auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed
:21:18. > :21:23.plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term
:21:24. > :21:27.plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be
:21:28. > :21:31.built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's
:21:32. > :21:36.a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more
:21:37. > :21:39.expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap
:21:40. > :21:45.energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices
:21:46. > :21:52.is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You
:21:53. > :22:03.have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.
:22:04. > :22:12.All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low
:22:13. > :22:17.Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the
:22:18. > :22:21.last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys
:22:22. > :22:25.prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the
:22:26. > :22:29.Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the
:22:30. > :22:33.time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas
:22:34. > :22:36.could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by
:22:37. > :22:42.the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per
:22:43. > :22:51.megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.
:22:52. > :22:54.Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,
:22:55. > :22:58.Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is
:22:59. > :23:02.an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power
:23:03. > :23:07.plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices
:23:08. > :23:12.except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations
:23:13. > :23:16.paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper
:23:17. > :23:21.carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's
:23:22. > :23:25.very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the
:23:26. > :23:30.pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in
:23:31. > :23:35.May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.
:23:36. > :23:40.You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure
:23:41. > :23:46.is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the
:23:47. > :23:54.first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.
:23:55. > :23:59.If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their
:24:00. > :24:05.partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about
:24:06. > :24:11.lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than
:24:12. > :24:16.the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are
:24:17. > :24:20.targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that
:24:21. > :24:25.that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say
:24:26. > :24:29.that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few
:24:30. > :24:34.years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a
:24:35. > :24:39.single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s
:24:40. > :24:44.what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in
:24:45. > :24:47.technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in
:24:48. > :24:56.mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were
:24:57. > :25:01.clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put
:25:02. > :25:05.the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on
:25:06. > :25:11.investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:12. > :25:15.guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't
:25:16. > :25:20.that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two
:25:21. > :25:24.separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply
:25:25. > :25:29.retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale
:25:30. > :25:33.side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are
:25:34. > :25:39.comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to
:25:40. > :25:42.do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:43. > :25:50.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:51. > :25:55.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever
:25:56. > :25:59.happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the
:26:00. > :26:03.verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going
:26:04. > :26:05.nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press
:26:06. > :26:08.officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains
:26:09. > :26:12.some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had
:26:13. > :26:15.a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats
:26:16. > :26:18.in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest
:26:19. > :26:21.party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite
:26:22. > :26:33.concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote
:26:34. > :26:36.increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as
:26:37. > :26:39.anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and
:26:40. > :26:44.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is
:26:45. > :26:47.that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,
:26:48. > :26:57.electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.
:26:58. > :27:00.For a number of years they were performing better than the UK
:27:01. > :27:04.Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.
:27:05. > :27:06.The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other
:27:07. > :27:11.groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't
:27:12. > :27:14.go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party
:27:15. > :27:20.was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have
:27:21. > :27:23.known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won
:27:24. > :27:26.12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour
:27:27. > :27:35.council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing
:27:36. > :27:38.concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different
:27:39. > :27:42.nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over
:27:43. > :27:48.everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I
:27:49. > :27:54.would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here
:27:55. > :27:58.When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a
:27:59. > :28:03.second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find
:28:04. > :28:06.non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even
:28:07. > :28:11.though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white
:28:12. > :28:15.working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent
:28:16. > :28:22.everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On
:28:23. > :28:27.behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,
:28:28. > :28:31.that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local
:28:32. > :28:39.Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we
:28:40. > :28:42.could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the
:28:43. > :28:45.council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.
:28:46. > :28:49.But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour
:28:50. > :28:53.vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the
:28:54. > :29:01.same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years
:29:02. > :29:05.ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing
:29:06. > :29:09.around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and
:29:10. > :29:13.stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now
:29:14. > :29:18.it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.
:29:19. > :29:23.If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not
:29:24. > :29:27.in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.
:29:28. > :29:31.I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say
:29:32. > :29:36.in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist
:29:37. > :29:40.but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of
:29:41. > :29:43.UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:44. > :29:52.party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is
:29:53. > :29:54.closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose
:29:55. > :30:11.amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were
:30:12. > :30:15.thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his
:30:16. > :30:18.appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP
:30:19. > :30:28.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:29. > :30:34.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:35. > :30:38.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:39. > :30:41.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:42. > :30:45.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:46. > :30:53.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:54. > :30:57.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:58. > :31:03.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:04. > :31:09.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:10. > :31:14.very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:15. > :31:20.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country
:31:21. > :31:25.faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European
:31:26. > :31:35.elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were
:31:36. > :31:40.denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take
:31:41. > :31:45.place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer
:31:46. > :31:53.movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL
:31:54. > :31:59.is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not
:32:00. > :32:03.a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took
:32:04. > :32:09.a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this
:32:10. > :32:14.stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless
:32:15. > :32:17.promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on
:32:18. > :32:23.this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.
:32:24. > :32:28.Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will
:32:29. > :32:33.probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across
:32:34. > :32:40.Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I
:32:41. > :32:57.reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and
:32:58. > :33:02.Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are
:33:03. > :33:06.on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I
:33:07. > :33:11.was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party
:33:12. > :33:15.did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and
:33:16. > :33:18.Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was
:33:19. > :33:24.true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader
:33:25. > :33:30.who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy.
:33:31. > :33:36.No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is
:33:37. > :33:42.irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs
:33:43. > :33:47.and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the
:33:48. > :33:55.European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose
:33:56. > :34:01.seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far
:34:02. > :34:12.right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin
:34:13. > :34:17.appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is
:34:18. > :34:24.part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with
:34:25. > :34:28.them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am
:34:29. > :34:33.perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible
:34:34. > :34:37.reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when
:34:38. > :34:44.will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely
:34:45. > :34:52.for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and
:34:53. > :34:57.self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to
:34:58. > :35:03.Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in
:35:04. > :35:07.Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just
:35:08. > :35:14.an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is
:35:15. > :35:18.completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the
:35:19. > :35:23.polls, performance at elections, the problem with your leadership is you
:35:24. > :35:27.are now going the way of the National front, heading for
:35:28. > :35:32.oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the
:35:33. > :35:37.problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years
:35:38. > :35:42.ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not
:35:43. > :35:46.around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a
:35:47. > :35:50.prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.
:35:51. > :35:54.That will lead to huge problems. Only the British National Party are
:35:55. > :36:00.prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:36:01. > :36:04.this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how
:36:05. > :36:09.irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New
:36:10. > :36:14.Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would
:36:15. > :36:18.turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they
:36:19. > :36:22.put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of
:36:23. > :36:25.bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.
:36:26. > :36:28.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:29. > :36:32.Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in
:36:33. > :36:43.20 minutes, the Hello once again from the Mhdlands.
:36:44. > :36:47.I'm Patrick Burns. And we h`ve a real high octane line`up for you
:36:48. > :36:51.this week. Tuned`up. Turbo`charged. A Land Rover and a Jaguar, raring to
:36:52. > :36:54.go. Jack Dromey, Shadow Polhce Minister, the Labour MP for
:36:55. > :36:58.Birmingham Erdington, home of the Castle Bromwich Jaguar plant. Lorely
:36:59. > :37:00.Burt, Danny Alexander's Parliamentary Private Secretary
:37:01. > :37:10.Liberal Democrat MP for Solhhull, where the Land Rovers come from
:37:11. > :37:12.Very warm welcome to you both. And we're definitely going
:37:13. > :37:15.'off`road' right from the start with with our own distinctlx
:37:16. > :37:18.mud`spattered version of those televised 'EU Debates'. Comhng up on
:37:19. > :37:23.Wednesday, Stage Two of the 'Nick and Nigel' rally. Now the Mhdlands
:37:24. > :37:25.MEP Phil Bennion, Number Ond on the Liberal Democrats' ticket for May's
:37:26. > :37:31.elections here, has challenged his UKIP counterpart Jill Seymotr to a
:37:32. > :37:40.debate with him. We've engineered our own digitally`enhanced preview
:37:41. > :37:44.of how their encounter might look. UKIP has really moved forward, we
:37:45. > :37:53.have a cross`section of polhcies now. Over the last six months, our
:37:54. > :37:59.poll ratings have risen agahn. UKIP has a cross`section of thosd people
:38:00. > :38:06.who feel disenchanted with politics. UKIP will get more votes but not
:38:07. > :38:11.more seats. I disagree. Isn't it amazing what you can do with clips.
:38:12. > :38:17.Why would I want to debate with someone who is not going to have a
:38:18. > :38:25.job after May? With all the main parties taking part, what do you say
:38:26. > :38:35.about Jill Seymour? I think, actually, Jack and I agree on this
:38:36. > :38:39.one. It is most important that UKIP poison is not allowed to pervade the
:38:40. > :38:45.West Midlands. There are 3 lillion jobs nationally at stake. These are
:38:46. > :38:49.associated with our membership of the European Union. It is mtch
:38:50. > :38:55.better to be in there fighthng than standing on the outside. Thdre is a
:38:56. > :39:01.perception that Nigel Faragd got the better of that one. That is a matter
:39:02. > :39:11.of perception. Nick made a very good case for jobs, Ross parity, this
:39:12. > :39:17.country # prosperity. Labour do not put their head above the potnd. You
:39:18. > :39:22.are just going to be sitting there saying, I agree with Nick, `ren t
:39:23. > :39:28.you? I never thought I'd sax this but I do agree with Nick. Wd have
:39:29. > :39:31.got a world`class and incre`singly successful automotive industry in
:39:32. > :39:35.Britain. Key to that is inw`rd investment. Key to inward investment
:39:36. > :39:40.is continuing membership of the European Union. Were we to leave the
:39:41. > :39:44.European Union, it would put at risk tens of thousands of jobs in the
:39:45. > :39:54.automotive sector. Where I was on Friday, young people working with
:39:55. > :39:59.Jaguar Land Rover, I think ht would be economic suicide were we to leave
:40:00. > :40:02.the European Union. That is far too much agreement. We must end it
:40:03. > :40:07.there. And The European Union: In or Out is
:40:08. > :40:12.live on Wednesday evening at 7pm on BBC Two. Coming up: How six`into`one
:40:13. > :40:17.could go. Warwickshire's cotncils may shed a tier for local
:40:18. > :40:21.government. "But you can't bin our local services," warn town hall
:40:22. > :40:29.leaders. It's Much Ado about 'going unitary' in 'Shakespeare's county'.
:40:30. > :40:32.Alas, poor Warwick. But before that, an exclusive BBC
:40:33. > :40:36.investigation shows thousands of people have gone into arrears in our
:40:37. > :40:42.part of the country, since the controversial housing benefht
:40:43. > :40:45.changes came`in a year ago. A survey of 32 local authorities and housing
:40:46. > :40:48.associations has revealed jtst over 58 thousand people have been
:40:49. > :40:52.affected by the changes durhng the last 12 months. Out of thosd, nearly
:40:53. > :40:58.14,000 have found their accounts going into arrears for the first
:40:59. > :41:02.time. And more than 2,000 h`ve been served with eviction notices. The
:41:03. > :41:06.research also shows that only a small number of tenants havd moved
:41:07. > :41:09.as a result of changes, which are intended to free`up spare rooms and
:41:10. > :41:13.create mobility in the houshng market. Our BBC Stoke Polithcal
:41:14. > :41:19.Reporter Phil McCann has bedn talking to some of the people most
:41:20. > :41:26.directly concerned. Mark Taylor has a two`bedroom flats
:41:27. > :41:29.near Newcastle`under`Lyme. His housing benefit has been cut by
:41:30. > :41:33.nearly 14% because of the ndw rules. He does not want to love He
:41:34. > :41:42.is divorced and wants to sp`re room for when his children visit. ?1 39
:41:43. > :41:51.a week does not sound a lot. You have got to save. What comes first?
:41:52. > :41:56.The food or your rent? I have got to feed myself and my children. Council
:41:57. > :42:00.tenants in the Midlands havd been affected, with thousands of people
:42:01. > :42:03.being told they have too many bedrooms under the government's new
:42:04. > :42:12.size criteria, known as the bedroom tax. One of the main reasons for the
:42:13. > :42:20.reforms was to try to free tp spare bedrooms. Partly because of a
:42:21. > :42:24.shortage of smaller homes. Housing associations are having to build new
:42:25. > :42:29.ones, like this development in Stone in Staffordshire. The reforls have
:42:30. > :42:34.caused some of those affectdd to budget better and change thdir
:42:35. > :42:38.priorities. It was a case of move to one bedroom and not accommodate your
:42:39. > :42:46.kids, or steamer you are, struggle and you get to keep your kids. ``
:42:47. > :42:49.state where you are. The fact is, lots of households have not been hit
:42:50. > :42:53.by the changes at all. The government says the new system is
:42:54. > :42:56.fairer and provides more incentive for people to find work.
:42:57. > :42:58.Phil McCann. And the Work and Pensions Department tell us
:42:59. > :43:02.'vulnerable' housing benefit claimants are protected by ` ?3 5
:43:03. > :43:10.million fund across this ye`r and next. They say these changes are
:43:11. > :43:16.saving taxpayers ?1 million a day. But on the evidence of that, these
:43:17. > :43:21.measures are not getting extra mobility into the housing m`rket,
:43:22. > :43:26.they are not freeing accommodation, all they are doing is adding to the
:43:27. > :43:28.hardship and pain for peopld? Certainly my own party and
:43:29. > :43:34.government pushed very hard for the additional money, we went from 20
:43:35. > :43:40.million in help with the most distressed people, right up to 180
:43:41. > :43:46.million this year. And I agree. It is hard. But it is hard to have 1.7
:43:47. > :43:53.million people waiting for housing, and of those, 240,000 of exhsting
:43:54. > :44:00.tenants are overcrowded. We must try to do something, but we must try
:44:01. > :44:04.compassionately as well if we can. You became a police shadow linister,
:44:05. > :44:12.your party's position on thhs general issue was well`known. Surely
:44:13. > :44:18.there is an obligation to t`xpayers. Some people may not afford to put
:44:19. > :44:23.extra bedrooms in their houses? This is an unfair and iniquitous tax It
:44:24. > :44:28.is driving some people to sticide, like here in Birmingham. Thd problem
:44:29. > :44:35.as there are not the one`bedroom flats available. In Birmingham,
:44:36. > :44:40.13,000 were hit, if you then move them into the private rented sector,
:44:41. > :44:46.it costs more on housing benefit, ?1600 a year. Also what is happening
:44:47. > :44:48.is that councils and housing associations are having to plan to
:44:49. > :44:56.build fewer homes because of mounting bad debt. This tax, once in
:44:57. > :45:01.a generation there is a tax so bad that the next generation looks back
:45:02. > :45:06.and says, why do they do it? We will scrap the bedroom tax. I thhnk it is
:45:07. > :45:13.right that there are not sufficient houses, but under Labour, 471,0 0
:45:14. > :45:23.social homes were lost. At least under this government, we whll end
:45:24. > :45:25.up with more homes. Why impose a retrospective tax creating the kind
:45:26. > :45:32.of heartache and hardship that it is? I have to say this, I
:45:33. > :45:39.fundamentally disagree with her on this. Her president voted whth us to
:45:40. > :45:46.scrap the bedroom tax. I hope you will think again, because this tax,
:45:47. > :45:50.the sooner it is history thd better. Is it one where the Conserv`tives
:45:51. > :46:00.and the Liberal Democrats khds let? `` could split? It is fair to say
:46:01. > :46:06.that anything that doesn't show compassion or fairness is something
:46:07. > :46:12.that concerns the Liberal Ddmocrats. Nevertheless, we have incre`sed the
:46:13. > :46:17.amount of help that is available. I am very sorry to learn that a lot of
:46:18. > :46:22.councils are not using this money to its full effect. I hope there is no
:46:23. > :46:27.counsel out there doing that for political purposes at the expense of
:46:28. > :46:33.people who could have benefhted from the extra help the government has
:46:34. > :46:37.made available. We have been talking to the National Housing Feddration.
:46:38. > :46:43.They say it is economic lien socially incoherent and it has got
:46:44. > :46:49.to go. `` economic leak and socially incoherent. The problem is that
:46:50. > :46:53.anybody who goes into private rented accommodation does not get spare
:46:54. > :46:58.rooms paid for. A lot of people feel that is unfair. But if the
:46:59. > :47:02.accommodation is unavailabld, how can you say to people hit bx the
:47:03. > :47:07.bedroom tax, two thirds of whom are disabled, where there is no
:47:08. > :47:12.accommodation alternatively, I am sorry, pay more. That is catsing
:47:13. > :47:17.painful distress. We just h`ve to build those additional housds, I
:47:18. > :47:21.would very much like to hopd... It does not matter what party xou are,
:47:22. > :47:25.we have got to work together. Millions of people need homds and
:47:26. > :47:28.need them now. Thank you both. Are we about to see the
:47:29. > :47:31.transformation of Town Hall politics in Warwickshire? The county council
:47:32. > :47:33.leader wants the two`tier sdt`up of county and district councils
:47:34. > :47:38.replaced by a single all`purpose, all`powerful 'unitary' authority.
:47:39. > :47:42.That's the system they alre`dy have in places like Herefordshird and
:47:43. > :47:48.Shropshire. It's reckoned the change could save as much as ?68 mhllion
:47:49. > :47:50.over the next five years. Btt as our BBC Coventry and Warwickshire
:47:51. > :47:59.Political reporter Sian Grzdsczyk explains, the idea's being fiercely
:48:00. > :48:02.opposed. These men have been collecthng waste
:48:03. > :48:06.for years on behalf of Warwhck district Council. These men have
:48:07. > :48:10.been disposing of the town's waste for just as long. They are dmployed
:48:11. > :48:14.by Warwickshire county council. But all of this could change. There
:48:15. > :48:19.could be a revolution on thd way which would see all of
:48:20. > :48:23.Warwickshire's council 's Bdnd. At the moment there are six cotncils in
:48:24. > :48:28.Warwickshire, but if they ddcide to go unitary they could scrap all of
:48:29. > :48:34.them and replace them with just one. Or they could opt to split the
:48:35. > :48:38.county in two. Over in Nune`ton and Bedworth, the thought of abolishing
:48:39. > :48:46.this council is hard not to stomach for its leader. It is nothing to do
:48:47. > :48:48.with saving money. It is about the high salaries they pay to some of
:48:49. > :48:51.their senior officers and councillors, while the district are
:48:52. > :49:01.trained to save money all around the county. So is it a power gr`b?
:49:02. > :49:05.Absolutely not, of course it isn't. I am effectively ceasing thhs
:49:06. > :49:13.organisation. As far as I'm concerned, I could be exit hnto the
:49:14. > :49:19.sunset tomorrow. So why are you so seriously considering Warwickshire
:49:20. > :49:24.becoming unitary? We had re`l big cost challenges ahead of us. This is
:49:25. > :49:27.the tsunami of cost that is going to hit us. If we do not start trying to
:49:28. > :49:34.work out how we're going to run our business now? We will be ovdrwhelmed
:49:35. > :49:39.by it. Back at the tip, there was a mixed response to the idea. I would
:49:40. > :49:46.like to know more about it before I made a final decision. It would
:49:47. > :49:53.depend how much money it wotld save. As far as I can see, there hs no
:49:54. > :49:59.problem. It will be just thd same. I shouldn't imagine it would be a
:50:00. > :50:03.problem. This idea has been recycled many times before. Herefordshire
:50:04. > :50:10.abolished its district councils back in 1998. My personal view is that in
:50:11. > :50:16.the light of the problems all councils are facing, it is
:50:17. > :50:25.inevitable. And we should elbrace it with open arms and do a good job of
:50:26. > :50:27.it. It can be done. But is this discussion a waste of time given
:50:28. > :50:37.that Eric Pickles things thd idea of local government reorganisation is a
:50:38. > :50:40.load of rubbish. Sian Grzeszczyk. And we're `lso
:50:41. > :50:42.joined here today by the Conservative leader of our largest
:50:43. > :50:45.upper`tier county council. Staffordshire has a populathon of
:50:46. > :50:49.over 800,000 with no fewer than eight lower`tier district councils.
:50:50. > :50:51.Philip Atkins has been on the county council since 1987 and becale
:50:52. > :50:58.chairman of West Midlands Councils four years ago. It has been wound up
:50:59. > :51:00.since, actually. Looking at that report and senior colleague in
:51:01. > :51:06.Herefordshire seeing it as inevitable moving to unitarx, they
:51:07. > :51:12.want to base it all at district level. Classic county counchl 's
:51:13. > :51:19.like yours are exiting into the sunset? Far from it. There hs a very
:51:20. > :51:24.complex environment out there in public service. The big prize is
:51:25. > :51:27.where county council 's work with the National Health Service,
:51:28. > :51:31.community services, the polhce and fire, in delivering the real
:51:32. > :51:36.services that people probably do not see on a day`to`day basis.
:51:37. > :51:41.Children's services, adult care getting the infrastructure right on
:51:42. > :51:49.major projects like the motorway junction we are building. There is a
:51:50. > :51:51.whole raft of partnerships. Besides the eighth district, we havd five
:51:52. > :51:57.clinical commissioning groups as well as working closely with
:51:58. > :52:02.Stoke`on`Trent. No unitary hn Staffordshire, as far as yot're
:52:03. > :52:07.concerned? Certainly not, it would be a distraction from the t`sks we
:52:08. > :52:16.have at hand at the moment. You could do those savings, you could
:52:17. > :52:19.share chief executive is, as they do in Redditch and Bromsgrove, you
:52:20. > :52:24.could have joint ventures where they work together with other cotncils.
:52:25. > :52:29.We are doing joint ventures with county councils outside of the West
:52:30. > :52:36.Midlands. It seems there is a trade`off implicit in the rdport.
:52:37. > :52:40.You get economies of scale on one side, on the other side there are
:52:41. > :52:46.questions of accountability. Quite often, the real cost savings can be
:52:47. > :52:51.at a local level because people themselves know what servicds they
:52:52. > :52:57.require. They are the ones that they value, and quite often we fhnd you
:52:58. > :53:02.can save money by putting the actual money as locally as you possibly
:53:03. > :53:07.can. Jack, where do you stand on this? These are the district
:53:08. > :53:13.authorities, where Labour h`ve their power base in the big counthes. The
:53:14. > :53:22.big problem facing local government, is central government, I agree with
:53:23. > :53:24.Philip. We need to work tow`rds greater collaboration betwedn
:53:25. > :53:33.councils. Hearing Greater Birmingham, we are moving down the
:53:34. > :53:36.path of driving local development. The idea that you stop at a time
:53:37. > :53:40.like this, taken great deal of time and spend a great deal of money on
:53:41. > :53:45.local government reorganisation is neither necessary nor appropriate.
:53:46. > :53:51.As a party that believes in localism, I think it is verx much up
:53:52. > :53:56.to local authorities to makd those decisions for themselves.
:53:57. > :54:00.Voluntarily. They should decide how they want to run things and people
:54:01. > :54:07.should decide how they want it to be run. If you think of Cheltenham the
:54:08. > :54:09.one Liberal Democrat controlled local authority in this part of the
:54:10. > :54:14.country, it is a district. Xou would really struggled to get over or
:54:15. > :54:22.control of any larger unitary countywide authority. Indeed. Jack
:54:23. > :54:29.and I, as members of metropolitan boroughs, all of these things tend
:54:30. > :54:36.to be a little bit of a mystery to us. The public are often confused by
:54:37. > :54:45.who does what. The question to you, Philip, as the apostle of slarter
:54:46. > :54:51.working and merging partnerships, you cannot deal with the sort of
:54:52. > :54:58.pressures, the tsunami comic, by pursuing your tactics that something
:54:59. > :55:04.structural needs to happen? I still believe we can do it as we `re doing
:55:05. > :55:08.it. We have created the largest integrated community health care
:55:09. > :55:15.trust in the country. It has got a turnover of ?350 million. Wd have
:55:16. > :55:21.formed an education support service working with other councils which is
:55:22. > :55:25.also saving money. There ard lots of ways that you can work with others
:55:26. > :55:29.within your boundaries, and outside them, to save money, and retain that
:55:30. > :55:35.democratic accountability at the ballot box. Quickly render table
:55:36. > :55:42.from each of you, should Warwickshire do it? It is up to
:55:43. > :55:48.Warwickshire. We are not gohng to impose on Warwickshire a solution. I
:55:49. > :55:51.cannot disagree with Jack at all. It is up to the people who are on the
:55:52. > :55:58.ground to know what they're talking about. It is up to Warwickshire and
:55:59. > :56:07.all of its councils. Thank xou to all of you, and thank you, Philip.
:56:08. > :56:10.It is up to Warwickshire. Now our regular round`up of the polhtical
:56:11. > :56:13.week in the Midlands in 60 seconds. It's brought to us today by our BBC
:56:14. > :56:18.Coventry and Warwickshire Drivetime presenter Phil Upton.
:56:19. > :56:21.The Chancellor visited Banks's brewery in Wolverhampton to
:56:22. > :56:29.celebrate knocking a penny of a pint of beer in the budget. Parent
:56:30. > :56:32.company Marston's announced plans to create 3,000 new jobs. Hundreds of
:56:33. > :56:35.schools across the Midlands closed for the day and pupils had lessons
:56:36. > :56:37.disrupted as members of the NUT joined a strike over pay, pdnsions
:56:38. > :56:41.and conditions. The link between HS1 and HS2 has
:56:42. > :56:44.been axed, meaning no direct trains from the Midlands via the Channel
:56:45. > :56:47.Tunnel. Plans to speed up construction of the line from
:56:48. > :56:54.Birmingham to Crewe have bedn given the thumbs up though, cutting
:56:55. > :57:01.journey times to all points north! Quicker to Manchester, Liverpool and
:57:02. > :57:04.Scotland. Elsewhere on the railways London
:57:05. > :57:08.Midland trains is to cut around a third of its staff. One hundred and
:57:09. > :57:11.fifty back office jobs are going, one hundred of them at the company's
:57:12. > :57:13.headquarters in Birmingham. And an Independent Commissioner has
:57:14. > :57:16.been appointed to oversee Children's Services in Birmingham. The
:57:17. > :57:24.department has been rated 'inadequate' for the last four
:57:25. > :57:27.years. But the threat remains that the city
:57:28. > :57:36.could be stripped of its responsibilities. As a Birmhngham
:57:37. > :57:42.MP, it is not quite a takeover but it is not far off, is it? It's a
:57:43. > :57:45.collaboration between government and Birmingham City Council. Wh`t was
:57:46. > :57:50.very welcome on Thursday was that all three political parties came
:57:51. > :57:54.together to say there has bden ten years of failure in Birmingham,
:57:55. > :57:58.letting down some of the most vulnerable children in our city it
:57:59. > :58:02.is absolutely right, therefore, that there is no fears focus putting what
:58:03. > :58:07.had been wrong in the past right. The council has made some rdal
:58:08. > :58:12.progress, but we need to make further progress still at the next
:58:13. > :58:15.stages. Yes, absolutely, thd children have got to come fhrst I
:58:16. > :58:21.know sterling efforts have been made, it clearly hasn't reached the
:58:22. > :58:27.mark yet. We have got to take every step we can to help the children. Is
:58:28. > :58:30.it possible that if it improves the Lord will get the credit, and if it
:58:31. > :58:37.doesn't, Birmingham will get the blame? I don't care, honestly. What
:58:38. > :58:42.matters is the children of Birmingham. If you have a sdnsible
:58:43. > :58:45.collaboration between counchl and government, and we put the children
:58:46. > :58:54.of Birmingham first, that is a good thing. I totally agree with Jack. We
:58:55. > :59:01.have had too much agreement today. Is it a question of resourcds? It
:59:02. > :59:07.would, if we have suddenly lade these cuts, but this is over a long
:59:08. > :59:10.period of time. In part it hs about resources. It is also about
:59:11. > :59:13.deep`seated structural problems My thanks to Lorely Burt and Jack
:59:14. > :59:17.Dromey. Tomorrow evening thd Commons will debate a question we t`lked
:59:18. > :59:19.about on this programme a couple of weeks ago, and touched on again
:59:20. > :59:22.today: greenfield housing developments. It'll be introduced by
:59:23. > :59:25.Walsall South's Labour MP V`lerie Vaz. She asks why houses ard being
:59:26. > :59:29.built in green spaces, when there's land within Walsall for another
:59:30. > :59:31.twelve years, where she says the real need is for affordable and
:59:32. > :59:33.social housing. This, though, is where we rejoin Andrew Neil.
:59:34. > :59:36.boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew
:59:37. > :59:50.back to you. Now let's get more from our
:59:51. > :59:54.political panel. If the BNP finished? They were never
:59:55. > :59:57.spectacularly successful to begin with but one of my childhood
:59:58. > :00:01.memories was a huge fuss in London about the fact that they won a few
:00:02. > :00:04.council seat on the Isle of dogs back in 1993. That was enough to
:00:05. > :00:07.cause a panic. As if they are falling from a great tit and I think
:00:08. > :00:12.the big difference with the National front in France is that they are
:00:13. > :00:16.building on decades of successful that they finished second in the
:00:17. > :00:21.presence of elections in 2002, I think. And, even in the 60s, they
:00:22. > :00:25.were versions of their politics So they are building on a lot whereas
:00:26. > :00:34.the BNP are working with incredibly few raw materials in this country.
:00:35. > :00:39.It is interesting that the BNP does seem to be in decline in terms of
:00:40. > :00:45.its membership and financially, but in France, the far right party, not
:00:46. > :00:49.as far right as the BNP, but pretty far right, will probably do well in
:00:50. > :00:57.the second round of the French local elections. You could say the same
:00:58. > :01:02.about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties prosper when the picture is
:01:03. > :01:05.pre-rolled for them. If mainstream parties talk endlessly about
:01:06. > :01:08.immigration, saying you cannot get a council house because it has gone to
:01:09. > :01:12.an immigrant instead of saying it is because there are not enough council
:01:13. > :01:16.houses, that creates the conditions in which the far right can thrive.
:01:17. > :01:21.We are lucky that all the members of the BNP fell out with each other. As
:01:22. > :01:28.extreme members of the far right and left do. You can see that with the
:01:29. > :01:36.comedian in France, he has got a lot of support from people on the left
:01:37. > :01:41.as well. I asked Simon Derby was here victim of a pincer movement
:01:42. > :01:52.that UKIP were taken away voters and EDL has captured the Street protest.
:01:53. > :01:55.Yes, and Giles still not mention that the Labour Party has got its
:01:56. > :02:00.act together. They got the act together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge
:02:01. > :02:06.and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. I think UKIP would say, not a racist
:02:07. > :02:11.party but they are picking up votes from people who would once have
:02:12. > :02:17.voted BNP. But it is interesting the difference between Britain and
:02:18. > :02:25.France. Why is it that the Front Nationale came second in 2002 when
:02:26. > :02:31.they are not far right? I think they were on a five-year cycle because
:02:32. > :02:40.the next election was 2007. 200 they came second when Jean-Marie Le
:02:41. > :02:50.Pen came second. They are not as far right as the BNP. Marine has put
:02:51. > :02:55.them -- cleaned them up a bit. Diplomatically there is a much
:02:56. > :02:59.harder vote which spreads further across the electorate in France than
:03:00. > :03:13.there is in this country. This is a much more tolerant country. If
:03:14. > :03:17.Marine Le Pen does well today, she will not win that many because the
:03:18. > :03:21.centre-right and centre-left will always gang up against terror in the
:03:22. > :03:27.second round, but it sets the tone for the European elections. It does
:03:28. > :03:32.and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's
:03:33. > :03:36.doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might
:03:37. > :03:41.call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from
:03:42. > :03:46.xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from
:03:47. > :03:50.globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but
:03:51. > :03:53.are put off by the current president. That is what I do not
:03:54. > :03:59.think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon
:04:00. > :04:04.Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he
:04:05. > :04:06.was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up
:04:07. > :04:13.against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the
:04:14. > :04:18.phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of
:04:19. > :04:22.electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a
:04:23. > :04:26.few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting
:04:27. > :04:29.people's bins collected so they become part of the system that
:04:30. > :04:35.people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the
:04:36. > :04:39.Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be
:04:40. > :04:44.cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the
:04:45. > :04:48.leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be
:04:49. > :04:54.cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where
:04:55. > :04:58.the Labour leader is still 1%. I have read in the paper that there is
:04:59. > :05:03.quite a lot of of the record briefings going on at the top of the
:05:04. > :05:08.Labour Party. Give us a sense of the mood. Clearly, they are unsettled.
:05:09. > :05:18.One pol looks OK but there has been a run of polls where there is a lead
:05:19. > :05:25.over the Tories which is closing. There are worrying number of people
:05:26. > :05:29.who are what are called the 35s and they are people who thought all the
:05:30. > :05:33.Labour Party needs to do is sit still because there are a number of
:05:34. > :05:38.Liberal Democrat voters who hate the coalition. Because the Conservatives
:05:39. > :05:42.did not get through the boundary changes they needed to win, we can
:05:43. > :05:47.sit tight and it will all be fine. What a few wise old heads are
:05:48. > :05:52.concerned about is they feel this has a feel of 1987 about it when the
:05:53. > :05:57.Labour Party was united. They had a very good leader. The leader was
:05:58. > :06:01.impressive, the party was united and then what happened? They met the
:06:02. > :06:06.British people and an election. The British people said, terribly sorry,
:06:07. > :06:10.you are not occupying the party political territory where we will
:06:11. > :06:15.vote for you. There are some people from the Blair era who say it feels
:06:16. > :06:21.a bit complacent and there may be a bit of a shock when they meet the
:06:22. > :06:26.voters. We talk about people being unsettled but Ed Miliband is not
:06:27. > :06:29.unsettled. His defining characteristic is you might call it
:06:30. > :06:33.steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not
:06:34. > :06:37.respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But
:06:38. > :06:40.he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may
:06:41. > :06:45.think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot
:06:46. > :06:49.after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political
:06:50. > :06:57.weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr
:06:58. > :07:01.Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition
:07:02. > :07:04.authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.
:07:05. > :07:08.And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be
:07:09. > :07:14.attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget
:07:15. > :07:18.that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical
:07:19. > :07:25.trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to
:07:26. > :07:31.five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question
:07:32. > :07:37.is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This
:07:38. > :07:41.reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking
:07:42. > :07:46.poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and
:07:47. > :07:50.personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away
:07:51. > :07:57.an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important
:07:58. > :08:01.difference with the 1980s which was because you did not know when the
:08:02. > :08:06.election would be. Will it be in 87 or 88? They do not need to make up
:08:07. > :08:09.their mind until next year. What they are telling the pollsters now,
:08:10. > :08:12.we do not like this government because of course, you do not like
:08:13. > :08:18.the government. But next January or February they will be making up
:08:19. > :08:23.their minds. Is there a lot of animosity among the leading Labour
:08:24. > :08:27.figures behind-the-scenes? It must be personal or tactical because
:08:28. > :08:33.there are not big ideological differences between them, is there?
:08:34. > :08:38.Yes and no. What is striking is how little support Miliband gets from
:08:39. > :08:44.the shadow cabinet. He does not have outriders. That has been a
:08:45. > :08:48.continuous theme. Said he feels he is on his own? That they feel they
:08:49. > :08:55.do not get support from him. There was a column by Jenni Russell saying
:08:56. > :09:01.he is distant and detached. And Andrew Walmsley touched on this in
:09:02. > :09:06.the Observer. One of the divisions is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible
:09:07. > :09:10.structural problem between those two. It is a real problem. Ed
:09:11. > :09:16.Miliband believes Ed Balls has not done enough to get economic red
:09:17. > :09:19.ability. Ed Balls believes Ed Miliband is making airy fairy
:09:20. > :09:24.speeches and it will not cut with the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron
:09:25. > :09:28.nor Mr Miller band took part in the debate which happened earlier this
:09:29. > :09:34.week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. We have got another one coming up on
:09:35. > :09:39.the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s remind ourselves of what happened in
:09:40. > :09:47.last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.
:09:48. > :09:53.We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A
:09:54. > :09:59.referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can
:10:00. > :10:09.read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We
:10:10. > :10:15.have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.
:10:16. > :10:23.Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on
:10:24. > :10:29.facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen
:10:30. > :10:37.to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You
:10:38. > :10:44.have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.
:10:45. > :10:49.I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that
:10:50. > :10:54.and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for
:10:55. > :10:59.pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said
:11:00. > :11:06.actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged later
:11:07. > :11:10.on that Nick Clegg made a difficult argument. I think the most important
:11:11. > :11:14.thing Nigel Farage said was he distinguished out the immigration
:11:15. > :11:19.policy by saying we're not just closing day over, we want people to
:11:20. > :11:21.come, we just do not want mass EU immigration. That is an important
:11:22. > :11:26.thing for him to say to get away from the echoes of the far right. I
:11:27. > :11:34.suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us to read the small print. That was 11
:11:35. > :11:38.turn he took. It compounded his reputation for being sneaky. I
:11:39. > :11:44.slightly disagree about the pundits. I say this as someone who thought
:11:45. > :11:49.far it would win. -- Nigel Farage would win. The fact that the public
:11:50. > :11:56.disagree with you and the public favoured Nigel Farage does not mean
:11:57. > :12:02.the public were wrong. The question is, who is going to tune in for the
:12:03. > :12:08.second one? What is the answer to that? Phil Collins argument is a man
:12:09. > :12:14.who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a binary choice in this debate.
:12:15. > :12:17.Clearly they need to brush up on opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs
:12:18. > :12:21.to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg needs to brush up on the motions
:12:22. > :12:26.because he did not connect very well. Where Nick Clegg may go after
:12:27. > :12:31.Nigel Farage is when the -- when he said the EU has blood on its hands
:12:32. > :12:35.with Ukraine. He then came back to talk about the vanity of EU foreign
:12:36. > :12:40.policy and said European Union had made what was going on in Syria
:12:41. > :12:43.worse. It is one thing to say I do not think the UK should be part of
:12:44. > :12:47.the joint European foreign policy, it is part of another thing to say
:12:48. > :12:52.that Europe which will act with or without the UK is responsible for
:12:53. > :12:56.blood on the streets of Kiev and also responsible for exacerbating
:12:57. > :13:03.the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an hour is too long for Nigel Farage's
:13:04. > :13:07.shtick? That may be the case but Nick Clegg has precedence. He does
:13:08. > :13:12.that show and he has had to deal with the worst thing with dealing
:13:13. > :13:16.with what is thrown at him so he has honed his view consistently. We will
:13:17. > :13:20.see what happens in part two. That's all for this week. The Daily
:13:21. > :13:24.Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime every day this week. I'll be here
:13:25. > :13:26.next week at the usual time of 1 o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:27. > :13:33.it's the Sunday Politics.