:00:37. > :00:42.David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers
:00:43. > :00:47.over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.
:00:48. > :00:53.And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.
:00:54. > :00:57.We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live
:00:58. > :01:01.Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?
:01:02. > :01:04.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist
:01:05. > :01:14.But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?
:01:15. > :01:16.Here's to the quarter of a million votes.
:01:17. > :01:21.And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with
:01:22. > :01:29.In the Midlands, Daniel nind 99 success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.
:01:30. > :01:31.In the Midlands, Daniel nind 99 reporter fire and you get a The Call
:01:32. > :01:34.Centre in another county. Losing control.
:01:35. > :01:42.Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?
:01:43. > :01:46.And with me our panel of top political journalists,
:01:47. > :01:49.who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:50. > :01:51.and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:52. > :01:56.This morning's political news is dominated
:01:57. > :01:59.by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and
:02:00. > :02:03.The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior
:02:04. > :02:05.Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling
:02:06. > :02:11.The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of
:02:12. > :02:16.investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham
:02:17. > :02:19.where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken
:02:20. > :02:25.Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office
:02:26. > :02:28.was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.
:02:29. > :02:32.He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.
:02:33. > :02:34.In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,
:02:35. > :02:37."why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people
:02:38. > :02:44.Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the
:02:45. > :02:51.An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.
:02:52. > :02:54.Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's
:02:55. > :02:59.Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning
:03:00. > :03:04.this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.
:03:05. > :03:07.There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,
:03:08. > :03:10.which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.
:03:11. > :03:12.There will be discipline in the Government.
:03:13. > :03:18.The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.
:03:19. > :03:24.The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s
:03:25. > :03:42.put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.
:03:43. > :03:53.Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she
:03:54. > :04:00.has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael
:04:01. > :04:07.Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during
:04:08. > :04:12.13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an
:04:13. > :04:23.act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website
:04:24. > :04:26.and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of
:04:27. > :04:31.conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a
:04:32. > :04:38.leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a
:04:39. > :04:43.vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In
:04:44. > :04:49.the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.
:04:50. > :04:54.She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is
:04:55. > :04:59.interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse
:05:00. > :05:04.differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is
:05:05. > :05:09.tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.
:05:10. > :05:16.Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the
:05:17. > :05:22.politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is
:05:23. > :05:26.deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but
:05:27. > :05:31.replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in
:05:32. > :05:36.ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that
:05:37. > :05:39.ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the
:05:40. > :05:45.Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with
:05:46. > :05:50.Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick
:05:51. > :05:55.Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and
:05:56. > :06:04.criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the
:06:05. > :06:13.Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is
:06:14. > :06:18.fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What
:06:19. > :06:25.separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The
:06:26. > :06:29.view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic
:06:30. > :06:34.extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is
:06:35. > :06:40.criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour
:06:41. > :06:44.government introduced to do with the previous Labour government
:06:45. > :06:50.introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people
:06:51. > :06:55.and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous
:06:56. > :06:57.home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in
:06:58. > :07:03.the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has
:07:04. > :07:08.used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the
:07:09. > :07:12.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed
:07:13. > :07:19.those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove
:07:20. > :07:23.would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech
:07:24. > :07:26.the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11
:07:27. > :07:29.when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists
:07:30. > :07:45.warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system
:07:46. > :07:51.is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.
:07:52. > :07:54.Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.
:07:55. > :08:03.Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of
:08:04. > :08:09.their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents
:08:10. > :08:12.in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political
:08:13. > :08:15.infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the
:08:16. > :08:22.resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs
:08:23. > :08:26.to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.
:08:27. > :08:30.There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for
:08:31. > :08:35.four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact
:08:36. > :08:39.that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on
:08:40. > :08:44.for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much
:08:45. > :08:47.stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations
:08:48. > :08:52.like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the
:08:53. > :09:02.Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the
:09:03. > :09:07.leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an
:09:08. > :09:12.overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We
:09:13. > :09:16.want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate
:09:17. > :09:21.themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which
:09:22. > :09:25.makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to
:09:26. > :09:32.be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted
:09:33. > :09:37.curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an
:09:38. > :09:42.education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender
:09:43. > :09:49.segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender
:09:50. > :09:55.segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling
:09:56. > :09:59.Where you have a state education system, which is about gender
:10:00. > :10:03.equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of
:10:04. > :10:08.gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be
:10:09. > :10:14.tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We
:10:15. > :10:20.do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years
:10:21. > :10:25.ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like
:10:26. > :10:31.tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do
:10:32. > :10:36.think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to
:10:37. > :10:41.inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to
:10:42. > :10:48.be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy
:10:49. > :10:52.sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning
:10:53. > :10:54.as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of
:10:55. > :10:59.Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools
:11:00. > :11:02.were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They
:11:03. > :11:07.were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an
:11:08. > :11:10.academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within
:11:11. > :11:14.Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school
:11:15. > :11:24.standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we
:11:25. > :11:31.get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking
:11:32. > :11:35.to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme
:11:36. > :11:44.which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and
:11:45. > :11:52.fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a
:11:53. > :11:57.desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an
:11:58. > :12:09.increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr
:12:10. > :12:18.Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for
:12:19. > :12:23.gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in
:12:24. > :12:27.since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We
:12:28. > :12:35.note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected
:12:36. > :12:42.head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and
:12:43. > :12:45.what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about
:12:46. > :12:49.fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of
:12:50. > :12:56.schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You
:12:57. > :13:05.mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence
:13:06. > :13:08.for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group
:13:09. > :13:15.dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about
:13:16. > :13:19.schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in
:13:20. > :13:26.Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of
:13:27. > :13:30.multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic
:13:31. > :13:33.education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this
:13:34. > :13:37.morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,
:13:38. > :13:48.the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.
:13:49. > :13:52.In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools
:13:53. > :13:57.and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed
:13:58. > :14:02.this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and
:14:03. > :14:07.this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you
:14:08. > :14:10.fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get
:14:11. > :14:18.together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There
:14:19. > :14:23.are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city
:14:24. > :14:27.council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning
:14:28. > :14:32.have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in
:14:33. > :14:36.schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have
:14:37. > :14:40.a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for
:14:41. > :14:44.four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to
:14:45. > :14:49.account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils
:14:50. > :14:52.in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young
:14:53. > :15:23.people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain.
:15:24. > :15:26.people so they can succeed in a about making sure we have great
:15:27. > :15:32.vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our
:15:33. > :15:39.schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling
:15:40. > :15:48.booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.
:15:49. > :15:51.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg
:15:52. > :15:54.- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'
:15:55. > :15:59.because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president
:16:00. > :17:04.Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from
:17:05. > :17:08.Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives
:17:09. > :18:03.and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.
:18:04. > :18:11.and Reformists group in Brussels. and by a majority vote. If not Mr
:18:12. > :18:15.Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going
:18:16. > :18:23.to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us
:18:24. > :18:28.one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine
:18:29. > :18:34.Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have
:18:35. > :18:40.a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need
:18:41. > :18:46.radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave
:18:47. > :18:51.us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in
:18:52. > :18:55.public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks
:18:56. > :19:00.campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the
:19:01. > :19:03.European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent
:19:04. > :19:07.a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status
:19:08. > :19:13.quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?
:19:14. > :19:24.First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks
:19:25. > :19:30.against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man
:19:31. > :19:35.who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro
:19:36. > :19:39.group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the
:19:40. > :19:43.financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible
:19:44. > :19:48.financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who
:19:49. > :19:53.works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in
:19:54. > :19:57.Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But
:19:58. > :20:02.we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of
:20:03. > :20:06.this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the
:20:07. > :20:09.winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs
:20:10. > :20:15.LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority
:20:16. > :20:21.in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It
:20:22. > :20:29.is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament
:20:30. > :20:32.has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by
:20:33. > :20:34.majority in the light of the European elections after
:20:35. > :20:39.consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a
:20:40. > :20:46.candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a
:20:47. > :20:49.majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the
:20:50. > :20:53.Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.
:20:54. > :20:58.I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European
:20:59. > :21:02.elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the
:21:03. > :21:06.elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats
:21:07. > :21:10.in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking
:21:11. > :21:12.part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the
:21:13. > :21:17.United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German
:21:18. > :21:24.socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a
:21:25. > :21:28.nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with
:21:29. > :21:31.hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a
:21:32. > :21:34.democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to
:21:35. > :21:52.take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if
:21:53. > :21:55.I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of
:21:56. > :22:04.the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to
:22:05. > :22:07.Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives
:22:08. > :22:12.have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they
:22:13. > :22:16.have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form
:22:17. > :22:23.of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr
:22:24. > :22:27.Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU
:22:28. > :22:32.exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we
:22:33. > :22:35.want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious
:22:36. > :22:40.reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to
:22:41. > :22:47.vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,
:22:48. > :22:52.somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We
:22:53. > :22:55.need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the
:22:56. > :22:58.European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of
:22:59. > :23:02.federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in
:23:03. > :23:08.Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to
:23:09. > :23:14.take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the
:23:15. > :23:20.publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.
:23:21. > :23:26.We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If
:23:27. > :23:30.enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in
:23:31. > :23:37.the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,
:23:38. > :23:42.would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected
:23:43. > :23:45.by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the
:23:46. > :23:49.European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted
:23:50. > :23:53.pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist
:23:54. > :24:05.thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe
:24:06. > :24:10.which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not
:24:11. > :24:15.want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state
:24:16. > :24:18.This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better
:24:19. > :24:23.governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to
:24:24. > :24:28.become better, to change our programme in that question. That
:24:29. > :24:35.should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for
:24:36. > :24:37.that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to
:24:38. > :24:43.be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are
:24:44. > :24:49.matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent
:24:50. > :24:57.candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British
:24:58. > :25:01.commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election
:25:02. > :25:07.-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.
:25:08. > :25:10.Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European
:25:11. > :25:16.They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs
:25:17. > :25:19.and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.
:25:20. > :25:22.What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body
:25:23. > :25:24.which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission
:25:25. > :25:38.This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They
:25:39. > :25:44.didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes
:25:45. > :25:48.They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once
:25:49. > :26:06.in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,
:26:07. > :26:15.drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they
:26:16. > :26:18.are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the
:26:19. > :26:24.party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and
:26:25. > :26:29.the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting
:26:30. > :26:33.such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election
:26:34. > :26:38.under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was
:26:39. > :26:45.invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.
:26:46. > :26:50.When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most
:26:51. > :26:53.seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated
:26:54. > :27:02.using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --
:27:03. > :27:08.first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and
:27:09. > :27:12.London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,
:27:13. > :27:15.if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant
:27:16. > :27:20.to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to
:27:21. > :27:27.UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would
:27:28. > :27:30.have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by
:27:31. > :27:38.mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to
:27:39. > :27:43.experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of
:27:44. > :27:49.1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This
:27:50. > :27:51.man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and
:27:52. > :27:57.polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat
:27:58. > :28:05.candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards
:28:06. > :28:09.realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little
:28:10. > :28:15.Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do -
:28:16. > :28:23.bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.
:28:24. > :28:31.Mr Sanders got some consolation In 1998, laws came into rule on
:28:32. > :28:34.so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was
:28:35. > :28:37.established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh
:28:38. > :28:40.floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to
:28:41. > :28:43.voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the
:28:44. > :28:47.conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name
:28:48. > :28:53.of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those
:28:54. > :28:58.registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our
:28:59. > :29:01.opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on
:29:02. > :29:08.the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,
:29:09. > :29:13.were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need
:29:14. > :29:18.to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An
:29:19. > :29:22.independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved
:29:23. > :29:27.in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the
:29:28. > :29:32.description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word
:29:33. > :29:38.independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in
:29:39. > :29:42.1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again
:29:43. > :29:48.at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the
:29:49. > :29:50.major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking
:29:51. > :29:59.votes of them. Joining me now to discuss
:30:00. > :30:02.this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the
:30:03. > :30:06.South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is
:30:07. > :30:21.the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that
:30:22. > :30:26.were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to
:30:27. > :30:31.tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the
:30:32. > :30:39.breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats
:30:40. > :30:47.that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:48. > :30:49.You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:50. > :30:53.You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those
:30:54. > :30:59.with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there
:31:00. > :31:06.is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people
:31:07. > :31:12.who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,
:31:13. > :31:26.they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.
:31:27. > :31:34.I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And
:31:35. > :31:39.Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent
:31:40. > :31:46.people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of
:31:47. > :31:52.delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people
:31:53. > :31:56.have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the
:31:57. > :32:02.first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them
:32:03. > :32:08.in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it
:32:09. > :32:14.strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the
:32:15. > :32:21.electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to
:32:22. > :32:24.Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European
:32:25. > :32:31.Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did
:32:32. > :32:35.come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the
:32:36. > :32:40.election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy
:32:41. > :32:44.with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got
:32:45. > :32:52.significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.
:32:53. > :33:00.Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well
:33:01. > :33:08.represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?
:33:09. > :33:22.Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.
:33:23. > :33:25.I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had
:33:26. > :33:30.getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they
:33:31. > :33:35.voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.
:33:36. > :33:42.What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would
:33:43. > :33:47.agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral
:33:48. > :33:51.Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not
:33:52. > :33:59.confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to
:34:00. > :34:03.agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes
:34:04. > :34:07.and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the
:34:08. > :34:12.south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats
:34:13. > :34:18.into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the
:34:19. > :34:24.system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did
:34:25. > :34:28.not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because
:34:29. > :34:32.you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you
:34:33. > :34:36.have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain
:34:37. > :34:39.about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have
:34:40. > :34:47.complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a
:34:48. > :34:53.proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7% 8%,
:34:54. > :34:58.we should be looking at having 0, 40 seats in the national
:34:59. > :35:01.legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for
:35:02. > :35:06.national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused
:35:07. > :35:12.some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were
:35:13. > :35:16.very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the
:35:17. > :35:22.authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.
:35:23. > :35:29.That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by
:35:30. > :35:38.demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any
:35:39. > :35:45.legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal
:35:46. > :35:51.advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly
:35:52. > :35:56.does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the
:35:57. > :36:03.morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,
:36:04. > :36:10.there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There
:36:11. > :36:16.needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,
:36:17. > :36:20.one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous
:36:21. > :36:26.and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing
:36:27. > :36:30.going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in
:36:31. > :36:34.Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.
:36:35. > :36:41.It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go
:36:42. > :36:45.back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to
:36:46. > :36:48.the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an
:36:49. > :36:53.authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have
:36:54. > :36:59.the Electoral Commission. It is about being sore losers on the part
:37:00. > :37:05.of UKIP. I am delighted to represent people in the South West. Should
:37:06. > :37:08.there be a right of appeal or not? You need an authoritative body and
:37:09. > :37:10.the Electoral Commission is that. I do not think it should have a right
:37:11. > :37:12.to appeal. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:13. > :37:17.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:37:18. > :37:32.we'll be discussing extremism Hello once again from the Mhdlands.
:37:33. > :37:34.I'm Patrick Burns. And in a world full of
:37:35. > :37:37.career politicians, both our guests had
:37:38. > :37:41.high`flying professional jobs Karen Bradley, Conservative MP for
:37:42. > :37:46.Staffordshire Moorlands, was a senior manager at the
:37:47. > :37:50.accountancy firm KPMG. She's now a
:37:51. > :37:52.Home Office Minister. Valerie Vaz, Labour MP for
:37:53. > :37:55.Walsall South, was a deputy district judge
:37:56. > :37:59.and then a tv presenter. She's on the Health Select Committee
:38:00. > :38:02.and has written an influential report about policies
:38:03. > :38:10.against obesity and diabetes. They came in promising to bd
:38:11. > :38:17."the Greenest Government evdr". But for environmentalists,
:38:18. > :38:19.the promised 'plastic bag t`x' doesn't exactly make up for
:38:20. > :38:21.what could prove this Parliament's
:38:22. > :38:27.final Queen's Speech. The Infrastructure Bill easds
:38:28. > :38:30.planning restrictions on fr`cking, road`building,
:38:31. > :38:32.housing development. And a new generation of
:38:33. > :38:35.'Garden Cities'. Remember the last Labour
:38:36. > :38:39.Government's Ecotown propos`ls, which caused such ructions
:38:40. > :38:41.in Warwickshire? The Government say their
:38:42. > :38:44.Garden Cities would be built only where
:38:45. > :38:56.local communities want them. Indeed, the idea of a garden city in
:38:57. > :38:58.Birmingham or the Black Country has been given the backing of the
:38:59. > :39:06.National Trust. They suggest it could be called Albion. Kardn, how
:39:07. > :39:15.about a lovely garden city hn the middle of the Staffordshire
:39:16. > :39:19.Moorlands? I am glad you visited that lovely pub. I think thd point
:39:20. > :39:22.about the garden cities is that it is making development where local
:39:23. > :39:28.people wanted. People in thd Staffordshire Moorlands are very
:39:29. > :39:32.clear that we need housing, we have villages where housing is ndeded,
:39:33. > :39:38.local communities make the decision without housing should be. What
:39:39. > :39:45.people are most worried abott in regards to housing is any proposals
:39:46. > :39:48.that Ed Miliband has make Stoke`on`Trent grow the authority
:39:49. > :39:54.where they make it 40,000 homes in Staffordshire Moorlands without our
:39:55. > :40:00.permission. Valerie, you ard the MP for Walsall. Black Country LP. This
:40:01. > :40:06.idea of Albion, are you an @lbion supporter? I am not so worrhed about
:40:07. > :40:13.the name. I am worried about any building on the green belt. I think
:40:14. > :40:18.there is plenty of places, land banking as it is called, whdre there
:40:19. > :40:25.are places where there is planning permission for posers to be built ``
:40:26. > :40:32.houses to be built, but this was one of the proposals when he did his
:40:33. > :40:38.review for a labourer. If wd could move onto one the other provisions,
:40:39. > :40:48.combating modern slavery and organised crime. This will keep you
:40:49. > :40:52.busy. I am very excited abott it. I am proud Britain is going to be the
:40:53. > :40:55.first European country to ldgislate about modern slavery, and I'm
:40:56. > :40:59.incredibly proud to be the Linister to take this through. This hs a
:41:00. > :41:03.crime we're just starting to understand. To be at the forefront
:41:04. > :41:12.of fighting it is something we should be proud of. And Valdrie you
:41:13. > :41:16.have got to welcome that. Wd do But there was no mention of the NHS in
:41:17. > :41:22.the Queen's speech. There are lots of problems in the NHS, not least
:41:23. > :41:26.this crisis in A While I welcome the modern slavery Bill that Karen
:41:27. > :41:30.is going to take the Parlialent I think we need to still hear from the
:41:31. > :41:38.government about what we're going to do to put the NHS rate. Quick final
:41:39. > :41:44.sentence. The NHS needs to be able to get on and deliver the sdrvice to
:41:45. > :41:49.people, and we need to be able to be sure we're dealing with the serious
:41:50. > :41:53.crime of modern slavery. Valerie shakes her head. Still to come
:41:54. > :41:59.today: Is it a political earthquake, a turning point perhaps just a
:42:00. > :42:03.bubble? UKIP have fun in thd Euro election playroom, but if they
:42:04. > :42:09.shrivel in the heat of the general election kitchen, it would not be
:42:10. > :42:10.the first time, would it? Wd will be questioning UKIP's staying power a
:42:11. > :42:15.little later on. We know about the row over
:42:16. > :42:18.'ever`closer union' in Europe. Now we have our own version of it
:42:19. > :42:21.here at home. More and more of our emergency
:42:22. > :42:24.services are being lumped together. for the entire West Midlands.
:42:25. > :42:27.The 'strategic alliance' between West Mercia and Warwickshire
:42:28. > :42:31.Police continues to blossom. And now it seems our fire services' control
:42:32. > :42:36.centres could be joining forces too. Political Reporter
:42:37. > :42:56.Joanne Gallacher. Another cold comes through `t this
:42:57. > :43:00.call centre in Shrewsbury. Does it matter where your 999 Collins
:43:01. > :43:04.answered? Shropshire spy chhef claims he could see ?300,000 a year
:43:05. > :43:08.is the sheer The Call Centrd with another brigade. Our budget is due
:43:09. > :43:13.to go into deficit in 2017. Times are undoubtedly tough.
:43:14. > :43:15.The service has already had to cut its budget by
:43:16. > :43:17.?3.2 million since 2010 and it has to save a further
:43:18. > :43:21.?900,000 over the next six xears. It's reckoned merging
:43:22. > :43:23.fire control centres could deliver savings of
:43:24. > :43:28.around ?300,000. There are also concerns abott
:43:29. > :43:30.breaking the connections with the fire service and the
:43:31. > :43:45.community it serves. If we actually decide to merge
:43:46. > :43:53.another fire control, there can be another fire control attachdd to
:43:54. > :43:58.another Fire and Rescue Services, it means calls will be taken bx that
:43:59. > :44:00.Fire and Rescue Services, and the resources will be dispatched in
:44:01. > :44:04.Shropshire. The fire authority's planning how
:44:05. > :44:07.it'll deliver services up to 20 0, as part of that process
:44:08. > :44:10.the public's being consulted but unions are concerned
:44:11. > :44:19.by the proposal. Union members are concerned because
:44:20. > :44:22.their jobs are under threat. I members in stations are concerned as
:44:23. > :44:29.well because of the level of support and everything that a fire control
:44:30. > :44:32.room provides for us. There have also been questions about Shropshire
:44:33. > :44:38.Fire and Rescue Services's cash reserves. Political pressurd is
:44:39. > :44:42.mounting to use it rather than looking at closing emerging
:44:43. > :44:47.services. One thing which I still have not had adequately answered is
:44:48. > :44:52.that they are sitting on reserves of almost ?9 million. I'm very keen to
:44:53. > :44:57.find out what the intent to do with that money because they are
:44:58. > :45:01.considerable reserves. What does the Chief Fire Officer think of that?
:45:02. > :45:07.Wouldn't you say that it is raining now, reserves and therefore a rainy
:45:08. > :45:13.day? They will be spent over the next five or six years. Thex give
:45:14. > :45:15.the Fire Authority options `bout changes they can make in thd future,
:45:16. > :45:19.proposals we put to them. The last Labour Government wanted to
:45:20. > :45:22.build a regional fire control base in Wolverhampton. The centrd was
:45:23. > :45:25.moth`balled by the Coalition as the costs spiralled out of control.
:45:26. > :45:28.The building is now being used as an IT centre but could the ide` of
:45:29. > :45:32.regional sharing of fire services be rising like a phoenix
:45:33. > :45:43.from the ashes? Turning out to be an expenshve way
:45:44. > :45:48.of saving money. Valerie, I remember visiting that fire control centre
:45:49. > :45:54.that was under your governmdnt, ?10 million to set it up then rdntal
:45:55. > :45:59.costs of ?1.8 million. It rdminds us just how good your government was at
:46:00. > :46:07.wasting government money `` public money? I don't think it is wasting
:46:08. > :46:13.money. It is a good thing, hsn't it, what we have to hear from the Fire
:46:14. > :46:17.Brigade union, what we heard in the package, is you're taking away the
:46:18. > :46:23.local knowledge people have in the area and moving somewhere else. With
:46:24. > :46:28.a loss of six jobs, Staffordshire has moved to Birmingham. All of that
:46:29. > :46:32.local knowledge has disappe`red That really is the issue. It is a
:46:33. > :46:40.long way from localism, isn't it, when you have what looks like
:46:41. > :46:45.creeping regionalisation? There is certainly no push from Westlinster
:46:46. > :46:51.for a regionalisation or anx centralisation. Valerie's point
:46:52. > :46:57.about centralisation is a concern to people. I have spent many h`ppy
:46:58. > :47:01.hours talking to my Chief Fhre Officer about the work they are
:47:02. > :47:09.doing to ensure that we get the service we need in the merlhns and
:47:10. > :47:12.to make sure border areas gdt properly looked after. If that is
:47:13. > :47:15.what the local force wants to do, I think there can be savings to be
:47:16. > :47:18.made. I have seen it from mx district Council, it has sh`red
:47:19. > :47:25.services with the neighbourhng borough for over eight years and it
:47:26. > :47:29.has worked very well. With `ll of this sharing of services in the name
:47:30. > :47:33.of reducing costs, no one h`s voted for any of this under your
:47:34. > :47:36.government, yet we are seeing a very substantial shift in the wax local
:47:37. > :47:41.services and emergency servhces are being delivered? I want to see the
:47:42. > :47:48.money being spent on the front line. If locally or Chief Fire Officer,
:47:49. > :47:52.working with the teams, or the Chief Constable, the Police and Crime
:47:53. > :47:58.Commissioner, whoever it max be .. Our service is getting worsd?
:47:59. > :48:04.Ensuring the services stay the same or better. We can welcome any
:48:05. > :48:09.savings being made. And this process is going to carry on even if you are
:48:10. > :48:12.elected in the government. Xour deficit`reduction programme is going
:48:13. > :48:18.to have to take is on the s`me direction. There is no eviddnce to
:48:19. > :48:25.say this reorganisation needs to be done. I think it is important to be
:48:26. > :48:30.able to have a service, we `re under a lot of threats from all sorts of
:48:31. > :48:36.areas, and these fire services are on the front line which can protect
:48:37. > :48:39.us and lots of different waxs. Thank you both very much indeed.
:48:40. > :48:42.In a fortnight, our seven ndw West Midlands MEPs will take thehr seats
:48:43. > :48:45.in the European Parliament. Among them will be three from
:48:46. > :48:48.the UK Independence Party. They topped the poll here
:48:49. > :48:49.by a clear five percentage points.
:48:50. > :48:51.Nigel Farage predicted a "political earthquake".
:48:52. > :48:54.But as Elizabeth Glinka explains, UKIP's failure to win the
:48:55. > :48:56.Newark by`election raises ydt again the question whether or not
:48:57. > :49:05.they're capable of winning seats in next year's General Election
:49:06. > :49:12.UKIP is not a protest vote! Nor a protest movement! But a gentine
:49:13. > :49:16.fully developed political p`rty For years UKIP has been dislissed by
:49:17. > :49:20.opponents as a single issue party, that issue being our relationship
:49:21. > :49:22.with the European Union, and it's in European elections where
:49:23. > :49:25.they've enjoyed their best results. This time round UKIP topped the
:49:26. > :49:30.polls nationally and in our region. They captureed more than 400,00
:49:31. > :49:32.votes. Their 31% per cent in the West Midlands was slhghtly
:49:33. > :49:36.higher than the national avdrage ` giving them three MEPs.
:49:37. > :49:40.One more than five years ago. But the party is now showing signs
:49:41. > :49:44.of being a threat in local dlections as well. They now 42 councillors
:49:45. > :49:48.across the region although they don't yet control any counchls
:49:49. > :49:52.and don't have any MPs. UKIP picked up council seats in
:49:53. > :49:55.places like Walsall, Wyre Forest, Newcastle`under`Lyme and Dudley
:49:56. > :50:00.where it now has nine counchllors, one of whom was also elected
:50:01. > :50:11.to the European Parliament. We will go forward in a poshtive
:50:12. > :50:16.manner, and what we will do is put our country first, freedom first,
:50:17. > :50:20.and we will save our countrx from the EU, and next year at thd general
:50:21. > :50:21.election, guess what? We're going to take seats!
:50:22. > :50:24.The test of that bold claim is now less than 12 months `way
:50:25. > :50:29.yet the Newark by`election suggests it may not be that simple.
:50:30. > :50:33.UKIP topped the European poll in two thirds of our local authority areas.
:50:34. > :50:36.They also now have seats on 15 separate local councils. UKHP's
:50:37. > :50:41.Jim Carver is an umbrella`m`ker by trade, but he's folding`tp
:50:42. > :50:51.the day`job to take over as one of those seven new Midlands MEPs.
:50:52. > :50:58.Congratulations. But I have to say, what a difference two weeks made in
:50:59. > :51:04.the sense that you carried `ll before you in that European
:51:05. > :51:08.election, but apply those s`me figures to a first past the post
:51:09. > :51:10.situation in a by`election for Parliament, and suddenly yot're
:51:11. > :51:17.comfortably behind the Conservatives? We're talking about a
:51:18. > :51:23.particularly safe seat, the 44th seat in the country. We havd managed
:51:24. > :51:31.to increase a revolt by six. `` a revolt. I myself was up there
:51:32. > :51:38.campaigning couple of days. We went into that campaign, bear in mind the
:51:39. > :51:48.Conservative government called that by`election, it took just tdn days
:51:49. > :51:54.after the European elections, so for all the parties, it was a short
:51:55. > :51:59.campaign. Two weeks after the other elections, one day after thd Queen's
:52:00. > :52:01.Speech, the emphasis on Quedn's Speech day was all about thhngs like
:52:02. > :52:06.the economy, the infrastructure pensions. It occurred to me that
:52:07. > :52:11.this is the main dialogue that will dominate the general election. It
:52:12. > :52:16.was between the main two parties, you are not part of that re`l
:52:17. > :52:22.debate. Not at the moment. H believe our time will come. We are hn a
:52:23. > :52:27.strong parliamentary city for the Labour Party and the Conservatives.
:52:28. > :52:37.I think it is only a matter of time before we do. Look where thd SNP are
:52:38. > :52:41.now. Let's name names. Wherd are your real targets for the Wdst
:52:42. > :52:47.Midlands? I think one has to look at where we have picked up the last
:52:48. > :52:54.number of council seats. I think Dudley has got an opportunity.
:52:55. > :52:57.Newcastle`under`Lyme. It is my contention that what we havd
:52:58. > :53:01.actually done is engage with the court party electorate. If ht wasn't
:53:02. > :53:06.for UKIP, the turnout would be lower. I think we will go into next
:53:07. > :53:14.year's elections, and if yot look at what happened in Newark, looking at
:53:15. > :53:20.Karen and Valerie... I belidve what Newark showed is that there is not a
:53:21. > :53:25.parliamentary constituency with a majority of 10,000 or under which is
:53:26. > :53:31.not safe. And looking at thd numbers in Walsall South, UKIP 22,000,
:53:32. > :53:34.Labour 20,000. That is in the European elections. I just want to
:53:35. > :53:40.take slight umbrage with wh`t James has said. It is a kind of phck and
:53:41. > :53:45.mix party, they do not have any actual policies. Nigel Farage has
:53:46. > :53:51.thrown away the 2010 policids and is now saying, we might do Dudley. Or
:53:52. > :53:56.kind of like a pick and mix, they kind of like a pick and mix, they
:53:57. > :54:04.have not got a set of true policies other than Nigel Farage seehng, I am
:54:05. > :54:10.Thatcher's true air. Rubbish. It is true. Whether it is rubbish or not,
:54:11. > :54:18.let's look at the numbers from the Staffordshire Moorlands.
:54:19. > :54:20.Conservatives, 6800. Yes, undoubtedly UKIP did very wdll in
:54:21. > :54:25.the European elections, in 2009 as well. What Newark showed is that
:54:26. > :54:28.actually when you fight a proper campaign, you are there on the
:54:29. > :54:35.ground fighting for a vote, the voters appreciate that. That is what
:54:36. > :54:39.we saw in the Newark by`election this week. The other thing worth
:54:40. > :54:47.seeing is that the people who voted in the European elections for UKIP
:54:48. > :54:50.in 2009. Two you tip `` UKIP MEPs. Doesn't that show the strength of
:54:51. > :54:57.UKIP in the region? We won three seats, that shows the strength and
:54:58. > :55:06.that shows how we as a partx are engaging people from across the
:55:07. > :55:09.political spectrum. Not really. By`elections are always tough for
:55:10. > :55:18.the Party of God rent whatever it is. `` party of government. On real
:55:19. > :55:23.issues like the Council, thd Labour Party took the share of the vote,
:55:24. > :55:30.31%. Those are the issues that really matter. UKIP were expecting
:55:31. > :55:33.to get over 30% of the vote in the by`election in Newark, and they
:55:34. > :55:40.didn't, they got a lower cotrt in the by`election. Did I pity you
:55:41. > :55:42.Valerie, the issue that risds from the European elections in
:55:43. > :55:46.Parliamentary constituencies like Tamworth with the Conservathves
:55:47. > :55:49.remain in control. The Torids are targeting areas where you are in
:55:50. > :55:55.control, Labour failed to whn overall control, in Worcestdr,
:55:56. > :56:02.Gloucester, important target areas. It is the pool of UKIP that in some
:56:03. > :56:06.extent contributes? There h`s to be a discussion about what goes on in
:56:07. > :56:10.Europe. There is an underlyhng discontent, and I also feel Europe
:56:11. > :56:15.is too remote and making decisions without talking to local people
:56:16. > :56:20.David Cameron says you need to rebuild support from UKIP. How you
:56:21. > :56:26.going to do it? It is about engaging with voters. You go on the doorstep,
:56:27. > :56:33.meet people, and they will go out and vote for you. Briefly from you,
:56:34. > :56:41.Jim? The Conservatives were in complete disarray in Europe. Over 50
:56:42. > :56:43.members of Parliament, I believe that we're on verge of a sensational
:56:44. > :56:48.victory. Thank you very much. Let's catch`up with some of the
:56:49. > :56:51.other political developments here over the past week. Our round`up in
:56:52. > :56:55.60 Seconds, is brought to us today by our BBC West Midlands Political
:56:56. > :56:57.Reporter, Kathryn Stanczyczxn. More than 30,000 graves will have to
:56:58. > :57:01.be exhumed to make way for HS2, among them a burial ground
:57:02. > :57:05.at Park Street in Birminghal. The Conservatives have retaken
:57:06. > :57:08.control of Worcester City Council. It follows a no`confidence vote in
:57:09. > :57:11.the Labour administration which had only been in control for a xear
:57:12. > :57:14.West Midlands Police Commissioner Bob Jones has written to thd
:57:15. > :57:18.Prime Minister calling for ` public inquiry into the death of
:57:19. > :57:22.three men in the Birmingham riots. Eight people were cleared of murder
:57:23. > :57:24.after a judge raised concerns about
:57:25. > :57:34.anonymous witnesses. There is a whole area where we have
:57:35. > :57:39.not managed to get an answer. I think we have a duty to givd the
:57:40. > :57:40.family is the answer is that they need and deserve.
:57:41. > :57:43.Paul Shotton, the deputy le`der of Stoke`on`Trent City Council,
:57:44. > :57:45.has stepped down after sendhng texts praising the council
:57:46. > :57:47.to BBC Radio Stoke using fake names.
:57:48. > :57:50.And Home Secretary Theresa Lay and Education Secretary Michael Gove
:57:51. > :57:55.from the so`called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham schools
:57:56. > :58:13.David Cameron has ordered the Cabinet Secretary to investhgate
:58:14. > :58:19.this Trojan War between two of his senior colleagues. It is a
:58:20. > :58:23.nightmare. One thing to keep unruly people under control, backbdnchers,
:58:24. > :58:29.but when you have two big bdasts at each other's throat it is a complete
:58:30. > :58:32.disaster? The whole governmdnt is absolutely committed and working
:58:33. > :58:39.together to tackle the thre`t that extremism presents to us all. There
:58:40. > :58:43.is a perception that has `` there has been a political reluct`nce to
:58:44. > :58:48.tackle this. Possibly the stggestion it is too hot to handle polhtically?
:58:49. > :58:52.That is not the case. I know the work going on across governlent to
:58:53. > :58:55.make sure we are tackling this and we're brave about tackling ht so
:58:56. > :59:00.everyone can be reassured about the government's response to thhs very
:59:01. > :59:03.worrying threat. The Shadow Education Secretary accused Michael
:59:04. > :59:08.Gove of being ministerial incompetence. Is it helpful to
:59:09. > :59:13.engage in politicking of thhs sort in an issue that is serious? I think
:59:14. > :59:18.you have hit the nail on thd head. It is a very serious issue, when we
:59:19. > :59:20.need to look at very carefully. Two very senior Cabinet ministers
:59:21. > :59:25.fighting with each other is not a good thing. The Prime Minister has
:59:26. > :59:29.to get a third party to intdrvene between the two. We will sed what
:59:30. > :59:33.happens when the Ofsted report comes out next week and then we c`n decide
:59:34. > :59:39.what the main issue is with regard to the Trojan Horse. I imaghne
:59:40. > :59:45.Michael Gove is very `` verx keen to address this. Will the government
:59:46. > :59:51.eventually get the bottom of this to satisfy public unease? I thhnk that
:59:52. > :00:03.is the most important thing, but the public has been reassured and knows
:00:04. > :00:05.this issue has been dealt whth. My thanks to you both.
:00:06. > :00:08.in BBC Radio Shropshire's Hotseat with Jim Hawkins
:00:09. > :00:10.will be the Conservative Defence Minister and Ludlow MP
:00:11. > :00:13.Philip Dunne. That will be from nine o'clock next Friday morning.
:00:14. > :00:19.It's Friday the 13th. So with any luck I'll be here again
:00:20. > :00:23.next week. This though is where we rejoin Andrew Neil.
:00:24. > :00:36.my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.
:00:37. > :00:40.Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?
:00:41. > :00:49.Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make
:00:50. > :01:11.we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read
:01:12. > :01:15.the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read
:01:16. > :01:30.the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in
:01:31. > :01:37.your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not
:01:38. > :01:41.being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national
:01:42. > :01:45.holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off
:01:46. > :01:51.instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is
:01:52. > :02:00.going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to
:02:01. > :02:05.influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like
:02:06. > :02:11.the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society
:02:12. > :02:18.and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to
:02:19. > :02:24.Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such
:02:25. > :02:29.as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as
:02:30. > :02:32.guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit
:02:33. > :02:41.half of what men saying this means that women inherit
:02:42. > :02:41.and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get
:02:42. > :02:46.any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law
:02:47. > :02:52.Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is
:02:53. > :02:59.meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different
:03:00. > :03:03.situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my
:03:04. > :03:06.profession of you and planned infiltration? In my
:03:07. > :03:08.profession of you having spent 3 years on the leadership of an
:03:09. > :03:21.Islamist organisation, having been involved
:03:22. > :03:21.Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very
:03:22. > :03:22.Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to
:03:23. > :03:27.influence the students of this country with a medieval
:03:28. > :03:30.interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative
:03:31. > :03:35.view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within
:03:36. > :03:41.our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were
:03:42. > :03:47.explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican
:03:48. > :03:53.faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.
:03:54. > :03:58.Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a
:03:59. > :04:03.policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this
:04:04. > :04:11.establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the
:04:12. > :04:15.solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working
:04:16. > :04:19.out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular
:04:20. > :04:23.and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is
:04:24. > :04:29.coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying
:04:30. > :04:34.about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very
:04:35. > :04:41.serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into
:04:42. > :04:44.intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You
:04:45. > :04:50.have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very
:04:51. > :04:54.often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or
:04:55. > :04:57.Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that
:04:58. > :05:02.leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think
:05:03. > :05:05.all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound
:05:06. > :05:11.problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish
:05:12. > :05:14.schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict
:05:15. > :05:20.Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get
:05:21. > :05:24.worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a
:05:25. > :05:28.problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state
:05:29. > :05:41.should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like
:05:42. > :05:47.France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take
:05:48. > :05:52.power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some
:05:53. > :05:55.schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than
:05:56. > :05:59.incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of
:06:00. > :06:05.this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you
:06:06. > :06:08.devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and
:06:09. > :06:13.behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary
:06:14. > :06:16.for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views
:06:17. > :06:22.that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe
:06:23. > :06:25.would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how
:06:26. > :06:29.tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that
:06:30. > :06:37.view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do
:06:38. > :06:42.expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the
:06:43. > :06:46.taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,
:06:47. > :06:50.educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated
:06:51. > :06:54.equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at
:06:55. > :06:58.which has Andrew Mitchell on it the former development Secretary,
:06:59. > :07:02.because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned
:07:03. > :07:07.about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.
:07:08. > :07:12.There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley
:07:13. > :07:16.Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating
:07:17. > :07:19.free schools and academies is undermined the work of local
:07:20. > :07:26.education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which
:07:27. > :07:32.are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of
:07:33. > :07:38.being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have
:07:39. > :07:42.the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary
:07:43. > :07:48.of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not
:07:49. > :07:51.that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the
:07:52. > :07:55.oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point By
:07:56. > :07:57.tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you
:07:58. > :08:08.think that will play out? -- it think that will play out? -- it
:08:09. > :08:11.cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It
:08:12. > :08:21.will keep playing out. The report that was due out
:08:22. > :08:29.will keep playing out. The report July, I think. We are expecting two
:08:30. > :08:33.points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other
:08:34. > :08:37.institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea
:08:38. > :08:46.of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.
:08:47. > :08:54.-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect
:08:55. > :08:59.racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and
:09:00. > :09:03.Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and
:09:04. > :09:08.robust leap by civilian society It was settled by the Prime Minister
:09:09. > :09:17.and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I
:09:18. > :09:23.think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates
:09:24. > :09:26.official government policy. It resign because what she did violates
:09:27. > :10:05.has not been implemented yet. resign because what she did violates
:10:06. > :10:10.decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he
:10:11. > :10:19.takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the
:10:20. > :10:22.beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British
:10:23. > :10:27.Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is
:10:28. > :12:21.reaping -- Angela This is your most popular...
:12:22. > :12:26.Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define
:12:27. > :12:30.clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough
:12:31. > :12:34.for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the
:12:35. > :12:38.fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We
:12:39. > :12:44.need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,
:12:45. > :12:48.assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is
:12:49. > :12:56.what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to
:12:57. > :12:59.finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger
:13:00. > :13:04.people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually
:13:05. > :13:09.liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too
:13:10. > :13:16.late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the
:13:17. > :13:24.one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been
:13:25. > :13:28.doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight
:13:29. > :13:33.three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you
:13:34. > :13:51.are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be
:13:52. > :14:19.back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:20. > :14:21.What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?
:14:22. > :14:25.You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.