:00:39. > :00:48.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:00:49. > :00:51.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:00:52. > :00:55.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:00:56. > :00:58.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:00:59. > :01:18.Take in the Midlands, a top author tells us why he is throwing the book
:01:19. > :01:29.as politicians over library closures.
:01:30. > :01:32.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:33. > :01:42.panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:43. > :01:45.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:46. > :01:48.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence
:01:49. > :01:50.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:01:51. > :01:52.it big in the world of European politic.
:01:53. > :01:56.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:01:57. > :02:00.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:02:01. > :02:06.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:07. > :02:09.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:10. > :02:24.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:25. > :02:27.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:28. > :02:30.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:31. > :02:33.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:34. > :02:37.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington
:02:38. > :02:44.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:45. > :02:47.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:48. > :02:52.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:02:53. > :02:58.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:02:59. > :03:02.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:03. > :03:10.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:11. > :03:19.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:20. > :03:22.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:23. > :03:25.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:26. > :03:27.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:28. > :03:33.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:34. > :03:37.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:38. > :03:44.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:45. > :03:50.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:03:51. > :03:54.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:03:55. > :04:02.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new
:04:03. > :04:12.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:13. > :04:18.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:19. > :04:20.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:21. > :04:26.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:27. > :04:29.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:30. > :04:34.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:35. > :04:39.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:40. > :04:43.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:44. > :04:48.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:04:49. > :04:53.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:04:54. > :04:57.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:04:58. > :05:01.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:02. > :05:05.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:06. > :05:11.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:12. > :05:23.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:24. > :05:27.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:28. > :05:30.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:31. > :05:34.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:35. > :05:38.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:39. > :05:40.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:41. > :05:44.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:45. > :05:48.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:05:49. > :05:53.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:05:54. > :05:59.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:06:00. > :06:04.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:05. > :06:12.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:13. > :06:24.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:25. > :06:29.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:30. > :06:32.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:33. > :06:36.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:37. > :06:40.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:41. > :06:44.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:45. > :06:46.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:47. > :06:51.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:06:52. > :06:53.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:06:54. > :07:02.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:03. > :07:05.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:06. > :07:11.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:12. > :07:17.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:18. > :07:21.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:22. > :07:29.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:30. > :07:33.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:34. > :07:37.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:38. > :07:40.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:41. > :07:46.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:47. > :07:51.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:07:52. > :07:55.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:07:56. > :08:02.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:03. > :08:09.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:10. > :08:16.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:17. > :08:20.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:21. > :08:25.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:26. > :08:28.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:29. > :08:38.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:39. > :08:42.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but
:08:43. > :08:46.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:47. > :08:51.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:08:52. > :08:56.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:08:57. > :08:59.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:09:00. > :09:02.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:03. > :09:06.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:07. > :09:10.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:11. > :09:17.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:18. > :09:22.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:23. > :09:25.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:26. > :09:29.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:30. > :09:34.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:35. > :09:38.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:39. > :09:44.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:45. > :09:50.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:09:51. > :09:54.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For
:09:55. > :09:57.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:09:58. > :10:01.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:02. > :10:06.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:07. > :10:10.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:11. > :10:14.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:15. > :10:18.week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:19. > :10:21.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:22. > :10:25.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:26. > :10:32.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:33. > :10:37.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:38. > :10:40.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:41. > :10:44.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:45. > :10:49.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:10:50. > :10:55.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries
:10:56. > :10:59.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:11:00. > :11:03.and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,
:11:04. > :11:05.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:06. > :11:13.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:14. > :11:17.you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:18. > :11:21.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:22. > :11:26.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:27. > :11:30.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:31. > :11:33.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:34. > :11:37.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:38. > :11:42.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:43. > :11:45.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:46. > :11:50.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:11:51. > :11:54.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:11:55. > :12:00.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:01. > :12:04.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:05. > :12:08.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:09. > :12:14.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:15. > :12:18.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:19. > :12:22.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:23. > :12:25.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:26. > :12:31.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:32. > :12:34.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:35. > :12:40.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:41. > :12:45.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:46. > :12:52.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:12:53. > :12:54.benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of
:12:55. > :12:58.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:12:59. > :13:03.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:04. > :13:06.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:07. > :13:11.encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not
:13:12. > :13:15.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:16. > :13:18.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:19. > :13:29.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:30. > :13:31.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:32. > :13:34.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:35. > :13:37.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:38. > :13:40.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:41. > :13:44.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:45. > :13:47.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:48. > :13:51.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:13:52. > :13:56.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:13:57. > :14:00.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:14:01. > :14:06.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:07. > :14:11.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:12. > :14:15.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:16. > :14:18.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:19. > :14:22.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:23. > :14:25.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:26. > :14:29.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:30. > :14:34.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:35. > :14:40.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:41. > :14:43.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:44. > :14:45.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:46. > :14:48.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:14:49. > :14:51.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:14:52. > :15:13.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:14. > :15:16.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:17. > :15:24.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:25. > :15:27.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:28. > :15:35.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:36. > :15:40.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:41. > :15:45.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:46. > :15:49.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:15:50. > :15:57.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:15:58. > :16:03.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:04. > :16:08.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:09. > :16:13.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:14. > :16:18.are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to
:16:19. > :16:24.be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they
:16:25. > :16:28.going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the
:16:29. > :16:33.sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK
:16:34. > :16:39.stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David
:16:40. > :16:43.Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a
:16:44. > :16:50.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes
:16:51. > :16:55.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:16:56. > :17:00.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:17:01. > :17:05.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:06. > :17:09.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:10. > :17:14.different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it
:17:15. > :17:19.cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government
:17:20. > :17:25.to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land
:17:26. > :17:28.will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on
:17:29. > :17:35.the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European
:17:36. > :17:39.Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the
:17:40. > :17:43.line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting
:17:44. > :17:55.dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will
:17:56. > :18:00.not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.
:18:01. > :18:06.If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is
:18:07. > :18:10.working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority
:18:11. > :18:15.of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see
:18:16. > :18:20.there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined
:18:21. > :18:25.ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had
:18:26. > :18:32.about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it
:18:33. > :18:35.is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a
:18:36. > :18:40.referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious
:18:41. > :18:46.consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking
:18:47. > :18:51.about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people
:18:52. > :18:57.to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his
:18:58. > :19:02.party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a
:19:03. > :19:07.whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything
:19:08. > :19:11.we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future
:19:12. > :19:16.integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are
:19:17. > :19:21.upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being
:19:22. > :19:25.passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are
:19:26. > :19:30.prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in
:19:31. > :19:35.charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into
:19:36. > :19:40.which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence
:19:41. > :19:50.Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib
:19:51. > :19:55.Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what
:19:56. > :19:58.the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the
:19:59. > :20:03.choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political
:20:04. > :20:08.leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we
:20:09. > :20:12.went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the
:20:13. > :20:17.individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I
:20:18. > :20:22.mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his
:20:23. > :20:30.views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a
:20:31. > :20:34.small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of
:20:35. > :20:45.America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is
:20:46. > :20:57.really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we
:20:58. > :21:03.closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the
:21:04. > :21:12.idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers
:21:13. > :21:20.back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly
:21:21. > :21:25.been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that
:21:26. > :21:30.has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are
:21:31. > :21:34.we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship
:21:35. > :21:46.with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or
:21:47. > :21:51.another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on
:21:52. > :21:55.and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can
:21:56. > :22:00.remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the
:22:01. > :22:06.referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it
:22:07. > :22:10.sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is
:22:11. > :22:18.a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we
:22:19. > :22:28.will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to
:22:29. > :22:33.ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I
:22:34. > :22:37.thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the
:22:38. > :22:43.Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional
:22:44. > :22:48.implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to
:22:49. > :22:56.established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we
:22:57. > :22:59.mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the
:23:00. > :23:04.institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by
:23:05. > :23:11.federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate
:23:12. > :23:15.but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains
:23:16. > :23:24.national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it
:23:25. > :23:27.makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the
:23:28. > :23:39.Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU
:23:40. > :23:43.wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you
:23:44. > :23:49.liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to
:23:50. > :23:53.you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be
:23:54. > :23:59.disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only
:24:00. > :24:04.had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,
:24:05. > :24:10.France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of
:24:11. > :24:16.menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the
:24:17. > :24:24.North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an
:24:25. > :24:33.army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms
:24:34. > :24:37.of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you
:24:38. > :24:42.can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having
:24:43. > :24:47.the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the
:24:48. > :24:53.United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,
:24:54. > :24:59.Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is
:25:00. > :25:03.an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want
:25:04. > :25:08.to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a
:25:09. > :25:23.referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he
:25:24. > :25:28.was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and
:25:29. > :25:31.restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw
:25:32. > :25:37.everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born
:25:38. > :25:42.after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those
:25:43. > :25:48.plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British
:25:49. > :25:53.was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men
:25:54. > :25:58.smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a
:25:59. > :26:02.political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in
:26:03. > :26:13.those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,
:26:14. > :26:18.more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that
:26:19. > :26:29.thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in
:26:30. > :26:32.enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately
:26:33. > :26:39.we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think
:26:40. > :26:44.it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has
:26:45. > :26:49.improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.
:26:50. > :26:55.Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on
:26:56. > :26:59.those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the
:27:00. > :27:06.introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride
:27:07. > :27:19.in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.
:27:20. > :27:22.We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson
:27:23. > :27:25.from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban
:27:26. > :27:29.on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark
:27:30. > :27:39.They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are
:27:40. > :27:48.bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in
:27:49. > :27:52.our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as
:27:53. > :27:57.children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start
:27:58. > :28:02.smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for
:28:03. > :28:07.you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we
:28:08. > :28:12.totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make
:28:13. > :28:17.that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol
:28:18. > :28:20.eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is
:28:21. > :28:25.totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes
:28:26. > :28:29.which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping
:28:30. > :28:35.children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops
:28:36. > :28:40.shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so
:28:41. > :28:46.you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a
:28:47. > :28:50.36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you
:28:51. > :28:55.will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the
:28:56. > :28:59.younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily
:29:00. > :29:05.addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this
:29:06. > :29:09.becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you
:29:10. > :29:14.would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have
:29:15. > :29:18.no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if
:29:19. > :29:23.we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2
:29:24. > :29:28.years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't
:29:29. > :29:32.have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their
:29:33. > :29:36.20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes
:29:37. > :29:40.the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting
:29:41. > :29:46.cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get
:29:47. > :29:57.better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is
:29:58. > :30:01.going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.
:30:02. > :30:05.Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see
:30:06. > :30:10.adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is
:30:11. > :30:14.for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop
:30:15. > :30:18.young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they
:30:19. > :30:28.never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds
:30:29. > :30:34.who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government
:30:35. > :30:38.increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to
:30:39. > :30:44.18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,
:30:45. > :30:47.we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal
:30:48. > :30:52.says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a
:30:53. > :30:56.motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There
:30:57. > :30:59.is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they
:31:00. > :31:03.doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not
:31:04. > :31:07.about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and
:31:08. > :31:10.they have to get their act together because they are bringing the
:31:11. > :31:15.medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about
:31:16. > :31:20.things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,
:31:21. > :31:23.but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes
:31:24. > :31:29.altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s
:31:30. > :31:33.not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to
:31:34. > :31:38.smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would
:31:39. > :31:45.be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So
:31:46. > :31:48.even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,
:31:49. > :31:54.just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the
:31:55. > :31:59.habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so
:32:00. > :32:03.that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so
:32:04. > :32:07.important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One
:32:08. > :32:09.thing you will find is that throughout the world people is
:32:10. > :32:14.looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and
:32:15. > :32:17.different countries like Australia, they were the first with a
:32:18. > :32:21.standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all
:32:22. > :32:26.of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the
:32:27. > :32:30.tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with
:32:31. > :32:33.cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going
:32:34. > :32:37.head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal
:32:38. > :32:41.representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "
:32:42. > :32:44.So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?
:32:45. > :32:46.Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,
:32:47. > :32:49.but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what
:32:50. > :32:50.parliament might look like after the next year's general election.
:32:51. > :32:57.Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to
:32:58. > :32:59.Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of
:33:00. > :33:06.Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010
:33:07. > :33:09.more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but
:33:10. > :33:18.not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.
:33:19. > :33:24.Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female
:33:25. > :33:30.MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and
:33:31. > :33:34.the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have
:33:35. > :33:38.selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and
:33:39. > :33:41.to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been
:33:42. > :33:46.trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts
:33:47. > :33:51.and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the
:33:52. > :33:56.all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the
:33:57. > :33:59.whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long
:34:00. > :34:11.way to go on the issue of being representative. So we
:34:12. > :34:11.way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack
:34:12. > :34:11.of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.
:34:12. > :34:44.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:45. > :34:50.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%
:34:51. > :34:51.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:34:52. > :34:54.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:34:55. > :34:57.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:34:58. > :35:00.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:01. > :35:06.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones
:35:07. > :35:09.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:10. > :35:12.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:13. > :35:15.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:16. > :35:21.However all the indications are it could be
:35:22. > :35:24.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:25. > :35:30.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:31. > :35:33.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:34. > :35:36.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:37. > :35:51.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:35:52. > :35:58.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:35:59. > :36:02.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:03. > :36:04.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:05. > :36:08.represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary
:36:09. > :36:10.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:11. > :36:15.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:16. > :36:21.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:22. > :36:24.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:25. > :36:29.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:30. > :36:35.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:36. > :36:38.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:39. > :36:47.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:48. > :36:52.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:36:53. > :36:55.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:36:56. > :36:57.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:36:58. > :37:07.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:08. > :37:10.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:11. > :37:14.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:15. > :37:22.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:23. > :37:30.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:31. > :37:33.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:34. > :37:37.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:38. > :37:42.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:43. > :37:45.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:46. > :37:47.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:48. > :37:50.that is getting worse with single election.
:37:51. > :37:53.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:37:54. > :37:56.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:37:57. > :38:05.It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:06. > :38:08.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:09. > :38:12.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.
:38:13. > :38:30.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:31. > :38:33.Patrick Burns. Both our guests today have experienced the joys of
:38:34. > :38:39.government and the agonies of opposition. Or is it the other way
:38:40. > :38:46.around? Caroline Spellman, Conservative MP for Merrington.
:38:47. > :38:49.David Wright, Labour MP for Telford. He graduated through the prhvate
:38:50. > :38:55.offices of some of the grandest figures in his party for becoming a
:38:56. > :39:00.government whip. Among David Miliband. Welcome to you both.
:39:01. > :39:05.Another week in which the Mhdlands descended on Westminster mob handed.
:39:06. > :39:10.The third of these so`called Birmingham days, high `` pioneered
:39:11. > :39:17.by Gisela Stuart. Concentrated on the city's fast`growing cre`tive
:39:18. > :39:21.sector. That means industrids like television, graphics and colputer
:39:22. > :39:27.games. It's also about cementing the wider region's position on the map
:39:28. > :39:32.of the global economy. This came just two days after George Osborne
:39:33. > :39:36.had set out his vision of an even bigger super city in the north,
:39:37. > :39:44.stretching from Merseyside to Humberside, creating a trans`Pennine
:39:45. > :39:48.high`speed railway. David, `re we saying that what is good for
:39:49. > :39:53.Birmingham is good for Telford, in the way that what is good for
:39:54. > :39:58.Manchester is good for Leeds? It seems our region is missing out on
:39:59. > :40:03.this talk of super cities. We have to back Birmingham `s MPs
:40:04. > :40:08.right across the region. We need to have distinct strategies for our own
:40:09. > :40:12.towns that promote economic development and activity. Wd have to
:40:13. > :40:16.understand that it's Birmingham does well the whole region does. We need
:40:17. > :40:19.to work together as MPs across the Midlands.
:40:20. > :40:27.Caroline, would you say the same Samaritan? Last time we spoke he
:40:28. > :40:33.majored in Solihull. Everyone gets behind Manchester, but in this part
:40:34. > :40:37.of the world it is really about West Bromwich, Solihull.
:40:38. > :40:40.I think David is right that we need to fight together as a group of MPs
:40:41. > :40:46.to withstand pressure from Manchester. But we shouldn't
:40:47. > :40:51.overlook that `` the fact that 0% of investment into the Midl`nds is
:40:52. > :40:56.insult `` is in Solihull. That's why it chose to be part of a local
:40:57. > :41:00.economic partnership with Birmingham.
:41:01. > :41:03.Do you think this is going to spin off into something tangible, that
:41:04. > :41:11.the world will recognise a region that can be a powerhouse?
:41:12. > :41:14.I certainly hope so. I do rdgret the demise of the regional development
:41:15. > :41:18.agencies, but the new maps have to work much more closely together to
:41:19. > :41:23.get a comprehensive approach to investment.
:41:24. > :41:27.Can a. What used to be the role of the enterprise... ?
:41:28. > :41:31.Yes and I think it is shellhng out that the West Midlands export more
:41:32. > :41:37.to the EU only imports. Thank you. Still to come, the
:41:38. > :41:41.bestselling children's author Jacqueline Wilson explains why she
:41:42. > :41:46.is opposing library closures. I feel that when these libr`ries go,
:41:47. > :41:51.they will not ever be replaced. I think it is such a thing.
:41:52. > :41:55.We will talk about that latdr, reporting from Staffordshird and
:41:56. > :42:01.Warwickshire. Death by 1000 cuts, whoever came up
:42:02. > :42:06.with that could have had in mind these slow torture of these
:42:07. > :42:10.Staffordshire Regiment. For all their proud history, the St`ffords
:42:11. > :42:14.were reinvented as the 3rd Battalion The Mercian Regiment. Tomorrow they
:42:15. > :42:19.are to be disbanded altogether, part of the restructuring of the army. We
:42:20. > :42:26.saw an emotional leg of thehr fellow world tour.
:42:27. > :42:31.`` farewell tour. Marching through the streets of staffers werd the
:42:32. > :42:35.final time. The 3rd Battalion the margin `` de Mercian Regiment,
:42:36. > :42:42.formerly the Staffords. Other mac you have to adapt and move
:42:43. > :42:46.on and that is what we are doing. The regiment is being merged with
:42:47. > :42:51.the Mercian 's first and second battalions, as part of a 20$
:42:52. > :42:57.reduction in regular army ntmbers. By 2020, the number of regular
:42:58. > :43:04.troops is in cuts from 102,002 82,000. The number of reservists
:43:05. > :43:07.rises to 30,000. The changes have been controversial and provoked a
:43:08. > :43:12.dire warning from a former Labour defence minister.
:43:13. > :43:16.Finding more money for defence is just a matter of government resolve.
:43:17. > :43:20.Without an increase in defence spending, I believe we are on the
:43:21. > :43:24.road to disaster. The government position is that it
:43:25. > :43:28.is only possible to build a sustainable defence on a sustainable
:43:29. > :43:32.economy. We are filling a huge black hole in
:43:33. > :43:37.the defence budget last by the last government. That did requird some
:43:38. > :43:40.entrenchments. Government h`s done out and we are now able to look
:43:41. > :43:45.forward to a military which can pay its way.
:43:46. > :43:50.The first regiments, bearing the Staffords name, can trace its name
:43:51. > :43:55.back more than 300 years. Now they are marching into the pages of
:43:56. > :43:59.history. The Ministry of defence pointed out
:44:00. > :44:03.that the UK still has the bhggest defence budget in Europe and the
:44:04. > :44:07.second`biggest in NATO. A s`y Army restructuring will make it lore
:44:08. > :44:15.flexible and better able to meet future threats. There is a political
:44:16. > :44:17.irony here, isn't there? Thd former defence minister Lord West warrant a
:44:18. > :44:23.Tory government that the old policies are a road to disaster
:44:24. > :44:28.I would point out that equipment is also part of the equation. The
:44:29. > :44:32.government has made a decishon to build two new aircraft carrhers
:44:33. > :44:40.which presumably Admiral West would well come. It is a balance of troops
:44:41. > :44:45.and equipment. Dealing with a deficit of ?38 million, which we
:44:46. > :44:52.inherited on taking office hn 2 10. Act is a very big figurativd cut the
:44:53. > :44:56.army. It certainly smaller. Also strategically making greater
:44:57. > :45:00.use of Army Reserve Unit. A lot of people who leave the servicds do
:45:01. > :45:04.continue as reservists. The terms and conditions for reservists have
:45:05. > :45:08.been significantly improved to encourage service men and women to
:45:09. > :45:14.consider that route. David, you take an interest in
:45:15. > :45:17.defence. Do you feel the pahn of the former Staffords?
:45:18. > :45:22.I do. Over the last 20 years, we have seen a lot of local regiment
:45:23. > :45:26.disappear. Under this garment and the last. I think it's important
:45:27. > :45:31.that people have an identitx and connection with the regiments. I am
:45:32. > :45:37.working on a fundraiser for a memorial at the National Arboretum.
:45:38. > :45:41.He disappeared in 1968. This isn't a recent phenomenon on. I wish we
:45:42. > :45:47.could do more to connect colmunities to the forces. On Caroline's point
:45:48. > :45:50.about capacity, this throws up some serious strategic challenges. We
:45:51. > :45:53.have to make decisions about the type of conflict we get involved in
:45:54. > :46:00.and the role we play. Is your party colleague Lord `` Lord
:46:01. > :46:04.West on the road to disaster, what did he mean?
:46:05. > :46:09.I think he is saying that wd cannot cut much deeper. We have to think
:46:10. > :46:14.about how we play our role hn the world. I voted against the war in
:46:15. > :46:18.Iraq. I think there would bd real challenges now if we were t`ke on
:46:19. > :46:21.that kind of conflicts. We need to plan what kind of interventhon we
:46:22. > :46:26.are willing to take. We havd to form alliances. We have a positive
:46:27. > :46:32.alliance forming with the French. Are you saying the army is too big?
:46:33. > :46:37.I think this strategic view, that the Americans have said to France,
:46:38. > :46:41.we expect you to work together. We saw with the fighting in Mali that
:46:42. > :46:45.it was actually our air force that slew the troops to value to deal
:46:46. > :46:50.with that situation. That would be performed at modern takes.
:46:51. > :46:55.So much of the international situation is particularly
:46:56. > :46:59.unpredictable. This may explain why people feel exposed when we talk
:47:00. > :47:04.about cutting the defence btdget. It is unpredictable as hard to know
:47:05. > :47:08.understand that army is famhly and understand that army is famhly and
:47:09. > :47:15.allegiance to regiments, let's not overlook the fact that an Army
:47:16. > :47:19.centre will remain in Stafford. We will have to focus on and
:47:20. > :47:22.understand that we may have to play a different role, alongside allies
:47:23. > :47:28.like the French. Thank you both. We are squedzed
:47:29. > :47:31.financially like never before. Local authorities may initially h`ve the
:47:32. > :47:35.libraries as relatively soft targets, as Gloucestershire had
:47:36. > :47:40.there might be closure ruled unlawful in the high courts. Some of
:47:41. > :47:43.our best`known authors have been sharpening their hands in a campaign
:47:44. > :47:44.launched in Birmingham against councils abandoning their local
:47:45. > :48:02.libraries. We were in Stoke. It must be the Midlands, `` the
:48:03. > :48:08.Midlands's noisiest library. The County Council pulled out of this
:48:09. > :48:13.one and 11 others two years ago Volunteers turned part of it into a
:48:14. > :48:15.dance school. It is now the model for libraries in villages across
:48:16. > :48:20.Staffordshire, like here in Loggerheads. The County Council is
:48:21. > :48:25.pulling out of running eight and 23 other branches. It is hoping to save
:48:26. > :48:31.?1.23 million. We are doing this because wd don't
:48:32. > :48:38.want our libraries to close. It is a three`year programme giving us
:48:39. > :48:42.plenty of time to work towards achieving our library.
:48:43. > :48:46.If we had to take over the running of the library I am sure we would
:48:47. > :48:52.find volunteers will stop whether we would be able to open every day of
:48:53. > :48:54.the week and for the whole day we do not know.
:48:55. > :48:58.There is scepticism of the council's confidence in othdr parts
:48:59. > :49:02.of Staffordshire. The library here was only rebuilt four years ago
:49:03. > :49:09.I am not at all confidence that the libraries will not close. How they
:49:10. > :49:17.will achieve the running of the service on a voluntary basis, will
:49:18. > :49:21.libraries `` with libraries like this one. If they cannot get enough
:49:22. > :49:25.volunteers to run it, how whll they keep it open?
:49:26. > :49:29.Something Staffordshire might have good reason to worry. This library
:49:30. > :49:33.was one of two that closed when the council pulled out two years ago.
:49:34. > :49:36.Locals could not get the cash together to keep it open. It is now
:49:37. > :49:42.a nursery. On a visit to commentary, J`cqueline
:49:43. > :49:46.Wilson is that this kind of closure needs to be avoided.
:49:47. > :49:51.I understand the council's position. You have the elderly, sick, so many
:49:52. > :49:57.people desperate for money. I do seriously feel that librarids are so
:49:58. > :50:02.important. Even here, held up as a success
:50:03. > :50:09.story, things are getting dhfficult. In three years, the council will
:50:10. > :50:15.charge us a market rent and we have no idea what that would be. That
:50:16. > :50:19.could be really crippling to us It is clear that when counchls pull
:50:20. > :50:25.out of places like this, thdy cannot wash their hands of them colpletely.
:50:26. > :50:31.The children's author and ldader of the campaign for the books, Alan
:50:32. > :50:34.Gibbons, came into our studho. I asked him if his prime targdt was
:50:35. > :50:38.the local authorities or thd government.
:50:39. > :50:42.It is both. Is the climate of austerity which we can argud about,
:50:43. > :50:47.and I think it is the biggest con ever run on the British public.
:50:48. > :50:50.Mostly it about leadership. For many years, the library committed in
:50:51. > :50:56.Parliament has said that le`dership has been woeful. When there is no
:50:57. > :51:01.leadership from the top, cotncils can be incredibly uneven in how they
:51:02. > :51:06.implement cut. Brighton is ` very good situation at the moment, where
:51:07. > :51:08.they are building new libraries Places like Staffordshire,
:51:09. > :51:13.Sheffield, Liverpool, Gloucestershire. He has takdn a very
:51:14. > :51:19.different path with voluntedr libraries or closures.
:51:20. > :51:22.Staffordshire said is no re`son why libraries county will close. They
:51:23. > :51:27.are confident that volunteers comment. If you look at somdone like
:51:28. > :51:33.Warwickshire, where the county authority has moved out of 02 branch
:51:34. > :51:38.libraries, ten of them are still open with volunteers.
:51:39. > :51:42.There are number of things to say. You do not get the same service from
:51:43. > :51:47.volunteers. We welcome them but they should be supplementing professional
:51:48. > :51:52.librarians, not replacing them. In France, they are saying that no
:51:53. > :51:55.librarians are replaced by volunteers. They are only
:51:56. > :52:00.supplemented. A couple of lhbraries have closed in Warwickshire, my
:52:01. > :52:03.understanding. It is likely that in areas without retired
:52:04. > :52:09.professionals, like Knowslex where I taught for many years, we whll get a
:52:10. > :52:13.postcode lottery of librarids. The more socially deprived areas will
:52:14. > :52:16.not have those people to run the libraries. The places that `re
:52:17. > :52:20.better off we'll get literates, a literacy advantage.
:52:21. > :52:24.Are you saying that librarids should in some way be in Munich to the sort
:52:25. > :52:30.of financial challenges that the rest of the public services are
:52:31. > :52:35.facing? `` immune to. Not at all. I oppose the austerity
:52:36. > :52:42.agenda full top. If we do things like sharing services, if wd have
:52:43. > :52:47.fewer smaller library authorities, which have very few librarids
:52:48. > :52:51.indeed, we can make a difference. If there is a strategic plan, `nd there
:52:52. > :52:54.is no strategic plan, and there is no strategic planning New Zdaland's.
:52:55. > :52:58.They have one in Ireland, in Japan. There are 3% more libraries this
:52:59. > :53:05.year and 11% more library and in South Korea. There are 118 new
:53:06. > :53:08.libraries there. There is no reason why the seventh richest country in
:53:09. > :53:13.the world should be cutting 10% of our librarians, roughly 10% of
:53:14. > :53:18.permanent libraries, and handing them over to an uncertain ftture
:53:19. > :53:20.with involuntary libraries. There is no strategic leadership. Thd
:53:21. > :53:26.librarians body still at cast a vote of no`confidence in Ed Vaizdy, the
:53:27. > :53:34.Culture Minister. He has bedn utterly incompetent, giving no
:53:35. > :53:37.leadership. He doesn't have a plan. Only six months ago, the Ch`rtered
:53:38. > :53:40.Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy ordered that thd rate at
:53:41. > :53:44.which local libraries are closing has been falling year`on`ye`r by a
:53:45. > :53:47.factor of three. They celebrated what they called the imagin`tive,
:53:48. > :53:51.creative thinking that has been brought to bear in keeping them
:53:52. > :53:56.open. Dancing classes have ` much wider role in the community.
:53:57. > :54:00.It shouldn't be left to those volunteers to put a sticking plaster
:54:01. > :54:05.on the situation. I admire them but they should not have to do ht. In
:54:06. > :54:08.Barnet, they are fighting a fantastic battle to keep a volunteer
:54:09. > :54:13.library open, but they would much prefer to have a council run
:54:14. > :54:17.library. It cost less than ?1 billion. Is literacy that low on the
:54:18. > :54:22.public agenda? Alan Gibbons, certainly not mincing
:54:23. > :54:26.his words. He feels that thd present government does not have a libraries
:54:27. > :54:31.plan. I think we should have a libraries
:54:32. > :54:33.plan, but I also take a view that it is for local communities to decide
:54:34. > :54:38.where they spend the money `nd whether they invest in libr`ry
:54:39. > :54:41.services. I think you can do that. In Telford, we have shown that you
:54:42. > :54:46.can't do that in the current climates. We are opening a new
:54:47. > :54:51.library as part `` as part of the Southwater developments. We are
:54:52. > :54:56.working with other organisations, M Parish councils. In Telford Centre,
:54:57. > :55:01.in Dolly and Stirchley, we `re seeing library provision.
:55:02. > :55:05.There is a real concern abott finding literary standards. It
:55:06. > :55:08.cannot be right to pull out of local libraries.
:55:09. > :55:10.I think you have picked the wrong two MPs because our local
:55:11. > :55:15.authorities have actually opens new libraries. I think what is
:55:16. > :55:20.interesting, I take issue whth Allen who said that there would bd a
:55:21. > :55:24.postcode lottery. Actually, in my more deprived wards we are seeing
:55:25. > :55:29.that co`locating the librarx with, for example, the Citizens Advice
:55:30. > :55:32.Bureau, or with Age UK, has actually increased the number of vishts to
:55:33. > :55:36.the library, encouraging people to take advantage of both servhces
:55:37. > :55:41.What wasn't mentioned was the decline in book lending, has the
:55:42. > :55:45.greater availability of dightal books.
:55:46. > :55:49.It is a big challenge, isn't it The world of communication is changing
:55:50. > :55:54.so fast. Should we just do things a different way? It is also about Alec
:55:55. > :55:58.tried means as well as books. You can use that to your advantage.
:55:59. > :56:03.The library and Stirchley allows you to take back and look and lobbied in
:56:04. > :56:08.using the computer system. There is no member of staff there. There are
:56:09. > :56:11.Parish Council members are taking an overview of the library provision,
:56:12. > :56:15.but technology is helping to keep the library open.
:56:16. > :56:20.Thinking about the situation in Warwickshire, it scans the right to
:56:21. > :56:24.threaten them with market rdnts when volunteers are really working
:56:25. > :56:28.hard. That is a sure way of discouraging the volunteers who have
:56:29. > :56:32.been helping. That is up to Warwickshire `nd I
:56:33. > :56:35.don't know the circumstances. In Solihull, this co`locating with
:56:36. > :56:40.public services makes the lhbrary more viable. Volunteers are being
:56:41. > :56:43.encouraged to help the local library, and are being allowed to
:56:44. > :56:47.offer additional opening hotrs, increasing the number of visits
:56:48. > :56:51.There are definitely ways to give libraries a very bright futtre. We
:56:52. > :56:55.are here to prove that you do not have to close them.
:56:56. > :57:00.Alan Gibbons made a good pohnt that trained librarians are one thing,
:57:01. > :57:03.these reviving `` very valu`ble volunteers are another thing
:57:04. > :57:08.altogether. Are we saying that maybe the role of the specialist
:57:09. > :57:11.librarian, that area is abott central libraries like the big one
:57:12. > :57:18.in Leamington Spa, the libr`ry of Birmingham?
:57:19. > :57:21.I think it is more difficult in very rural counties, where you h`ve a
:57:22. > :57:25.situation where there is a large distance to cover. That is puite
:57:26. > :57:30.difficult in terms of providing a library service. Think you have to
:57:31. > :57:34.make sure that if you use volunteers, you sustain thel in the
:57:35. > :57:38.longer term, bring people through the system. Otherwise some
:57:39. > :57:43.volunteers will have had enough and move on. I am concerned abott the
:57:44. > :57:46.market rent issue. But it is up to local councils to make thesd
:57:47. > :57:50.decisions. Thank you very much. Now, otr
:57:51. > :58:02.round`up of the political developments making news here.
:58:03. > :58:09.Thousands have signed a poshtion `` petition to save this swimmhng pool
:58:10. > :58:13.in Coventry. The council saxs it is losing ?2000 a day and wants to
:58:14. > :58:16.replace it with a pool have to size. That land can act was launched with
:58:17. > :58:21.the aim of driving increased economic growth by providing better
:58:22. > :58:26.transport links. The council has given the freedom of
:58:27. > :58:36.the borough to Slade front lan Noddy Holder.
:58:37. > :58:40.It's not even Christmas! Hereford United football fans marched on
:58:41. > :58:43.Herefordshire Council, and `bout the demise of their club amid continuing
:58:44. > :58:51.financial uncertainty. Leaders join forces with yotng man
:58:52. > :59:06.in Birmingham, who feared that young man will join the group Isis.
:59:07. > :59:09.We can't stop them from going. Isn't the really worrying thing
:59:10. > :59:12.about this that we have no hdea really how many men from thd West
:59:13. > :59:18.Midlands are out there in the Middle East, let alone how many might come
:59:19. > :59:21.back? It is very tricky. Sometimes they
:59:22. > :59:26.take a route which is not dhrectly to the Middle East, so therd is no
:59:27. > :59:30.way of knowing whether someone who is going on holiday is going to end
:59:31. > :59:34.up there. The main thing is to focus our efforts in the areas whdre these
:59:35. > :59:37.young men are unlikely to bd radicalised. We have seen dhstraught
:59:38. > :59:42.parents who cannot understand how they're perfectly well adjusted son
:59:43. > :59:48.has suddenly appears in a vhdeo encouraging others to take tp arms.
:59:49. > :59:50.We need to focus our efforts on where the radicalisation is
:59:51. > :59:56.occurring. David, what can be done in `reas
:59:57. > :59:59.where there are several really big controversial issues running at the
:00:00. > :00:04.same time, to make sure we get a grip of this problem?
:00:05. > :00:06.We need to work together as a multi`faith community and stand
:00:07. > :00:10.together. The government nedds to decide what it is going to do with
:00:11. > :00:14.young people when they come back, if they have been in a war zond. We
:00:15. > :00:18.need a process to understand whether and why they have been in conflict.
:00:19. > :00:22.I think getting rid of the control of the regime has left us open to
:00:23. > :00:26.threat. We need to think about what our strategy will be when these
:00:27. > :00:30.people return. Do we need extra surveillance? We
:00:31. > :00:33.have heard about and alleges surveillance state, the rold of
:00:34. > :00:38.GCHQ? We need to help the families of the
:00:39. > :00:41.returnees. That's true and I think we need to
:00:42. > :00:46.intervene before people go. Thank you both.
:00:47. > :00:51.Thank you to Caroline Spelllan is David Wright. Finally, it rdpresents
:00:52. > :00:56.more than 300 councils across England in all shapes and shzes
:00:57. > :01:00.That makes it one Briton's lost powerful representative bodhes. From
:01:01. > :01:04.next week, the local governlent Association will have a new
:01:05. > :01:08.chairman. Councillor David Sparks, better known here as the Labour
:01:09. > :01:11.leader of Dudley Council. I will talk to him about the challdnges
:01:12. > :01:14.facing him as he prepares for that important new role in next
:01:15. > :01:18.been problems elsewhere in Europe, but I take your point. Thanks to
:01:19. > :01:23.both of you today. Back to you, Andrew.
:01:24. > :01:25.Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks
:01:26. > :01:28.about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come
:01:29. > :01:33.from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas.
:01:34. > :01:37.In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that,
:01:38. > :01:39."instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus
:01:40. > :01:43.groups and our press strategies and our desire for a topline in terms of
:01:44. > :01:45.the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any
:01:46. > :01:56.He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a
:01:57. > :02:08.The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls was asked about what Mr Cruddas had
:02:09. > :02:18.I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is
:02:19. > :02:24.excited about his policy agenda He is frustrated that one report of 250
:02:25. > :02:30.pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in
:02:31. > :02:35.the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution
:02:36. > :02:38.long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new
:02:39. > :02:45.investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really
:02:46. > :02:51.on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so
:02:52. > :02:55.let's call it an unforced error You go to the party speeches, and you
:02:56. > :02:59.don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as
:03:00. > :03:01.serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks
:03:02. > :03:05.about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled
:03:06. > :03:09.out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite
:03:10. > :03:14.saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative.
:03:15. > :03:18.When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult
:03:19. > :03:22.for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He
:03:23. > :03:26.was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being
:03:27. > :03:29.criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is
:03:30. > :03:33.particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician
:03:34. > :03:39.of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David
:03:40. > :03:43.Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is
:03:44. > :03:49.wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I
:03:50. > :03:52.would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised
:03:53. > :03:58.immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical
:03:59. > :04:02.and innovative on its own terms I don't think any member of the public
:04:03. > :04:05.does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If
:04:06. > :04:09.anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a
:04:10. > :04:12.Labour government could do and nervous about the economic
:04:13. > :04:17.reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the
:04:18. > :04:22.notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in
:04:23. > :04:26.night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas,
:04:27. > :04:29.because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus
:04:30. > :04:33.of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's
:04:34. > :04:37.interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour
:04:38. > :04:41.Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British
:04:42. > :04:46.people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander
:04:47. > :04:51.offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices
:04:52. > :04:54.and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has
:04:55. > :05:00.real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is
:05:01. > :05:05.John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy
:05:06. > :05:09.review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the
:05:10. > :05:14.policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the
:05:15. > :05:18.problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong
:05:19. > :05:21.opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they
:05:22. > :05:25.maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have
:05:26. > :05:30.in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise
:05:31. > :05:32.after his former director of communications was convicted
:05:33. > :05:34.of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend,
:05:35. > :05:38.Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared
:05:39. > :05:47.of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for
:05:48. > :05:51.employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was
:05:52. > :05:55.given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case.
:05:56. > :05:58.I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full
:05:59. > :06:03.and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I
:06:04. > :06:08.employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When
:06:09. > :06:12.I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy,
:06:13. > :06:19.politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was
:06:20. > :06:26.not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a
:06:27. > :06:30.great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another
:06:31. > :06:36.person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an
:06:37. > :06:39.unrelated issue. And he was 26- on the wrong end in Brussels, and there
:06:40. > :06:43.is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts
:06:44. > :06:46.Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings
:06:47. > :06:51.criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr
:06:52. > :06:55.Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when
:06:56. > :06:59.one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been
:07:00. > :07:03.the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the
:07:04. > :07:06.other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be
:07:07. > :07:09.the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised
:07:10. > :07:13.questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political
:07:14. > :07:17.damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was
:07:18. > :07:19.sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the
:07:20. > :07:25.date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago - it
:07:26. > :07:32.was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the
:07:33. > :07:34.general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am
:07:35. > :07:38.sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in
:07:39. > :07:42.recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that
:07:43. > :07:46.Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a
:07:47. > :07:51.slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears
:07:52. > :07:56.the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with
:07:57. > :07:59.Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be
:08:00. > :08:03.lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when
:08:04. > :08:06.there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the
:08:07. > :08:10.News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made
:08:11. > :08:14.a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out
:08:15. > :08:18.she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding
:08:19. > :08:24.what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her
:08:25. > :08:28.party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said
:08:29. > :08:33.that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one
:08:34. > :08:38.person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the
:08:39. > :08:42.SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime
:08:43. > :08:44.Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He s
:08:45. > :08:52.very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed
:08:53. > :08:55.Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that
:08:56. > :09:00.is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week
:09:01. > :09:03.the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in the
:09:04. > :09:07.polls than he has had some time so he must be wondering why they are
:09:08. > :09:10.having a go at him. He made a tactical error in Prime Minister's
:09:11. > :09:14.Questions by asking all the questions about Andy Coulson. The
:09:15. > :09:18.one at the end about what Gus O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in
:09:19. > :09:22.the extreme. Politicians can be out of touch on all sides of the house.
:09:23. > :09:26.The problem is, and there is a great quote by William Hague, is that the
:09:27. > :09:30.Tory party has two modes, panic and complacency. At the moment they are
:09:31. > :09:33.complacent. They think Ed Miliband will lose Labour election but I
:09:34. > :09:35.don't know if they have a positive plan about how to win it. -- lose
:09:36. > :09:38.Labour the election. Now, we knew Prince Charles had
:09:39. > :09:40.trouble keeping his views about the environment
:09:41. > :09:42.and the countryside to himself, but that's not the only thing he's
:09:43. > :09:45.passionate about according to a radio four documentary to be
:09:46. > :09:47.broadcast this lunchtime. Here's former Education Secretary,
:09:48. > :09:52.David Blunkett on how the Prince had once attempted to influence
:09:53. > :10:00.his policy on schools. I would explain that our policy was
:10:01. > :10:05.not to expand grammar schools, and he didn't like that. He was very
:10:06. > :10:09.keen that we should go back to a different era where youngsters had
:10:10. > :10:13.what he would've seen as the opportunity to escape from their
:10:14. > :10:14.background, where as I wanted to change their background.
:10:15. > :10:18.And you can hear that documentary - it's called The Royal Activist
:10:19. > :10:26.Does it matter that Prince Charles is getting involved in this kind of
:10:27. > :10:29.policy, released behind closed doors question mark on the issue of
:10:30. > :10:35.grammar schools is not clear anybody listened to him. I think it is a
:10:36. > :10:39.principal problem. I've spoken to form a government members, and
:10:40. > :10:42.judging by what they say, if anything we underestimate how much
:10:43. > :10:47.contacting makes with ministers And how many representations he makes on
:10:48. > :10:51.the issue that interest him. There has been an attempt to keep it
:10:52. > :10:55.hidden. It's almost a theological question about whether the future
:10:56. > :10:59.monarch should be involved in the public realm. If he wants to
:11:00. > :11:03.influence policy, shouldn't we know what policy he's trying to influence
:11:04. > :11:08.and what position he is taking? Sewer speech is better than private
:11:09. > :11:14.one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so a speech. Prince Charles's views are
:11:15. > :11:18.interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes
:11:19. > :11:21.a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in
:11:22. > :11:25.the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural
:11:26. > :11:30.development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which
:11:31. > :11:32.no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not
:11:33. > :11:38.convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his
:11:39. > :11:45.position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously
:11:46. > :11:51.described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66
:11:52. > :11:55.and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the
:11:56. > :11:58.powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the
:11:59. > :12:02.Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the
:12:03. > :12:06.problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but
:12:07. > :12:11.you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses
:12:12. > :12:15.that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing
:12:16. > :12:21.is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has
:12:22. > :12:24.got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win
:12:25. > :12:28.either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will
:12:29. > :12:32.be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and
:12:33. > :12:36.when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy,
:12:37. > :12:42.stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are
:12:43. > :12:45.encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama
:12:46. > :12:50.has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing.
:12:51. > :12:54.Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering
:12:55. > :12:58.solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way
:12:59. > :13:00.with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can
:13:01. > :13:05.complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can
:13:06. > :13:08.become a party political issue. He has had some influence on
:13:09. > :13:09.architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better
:13:10. > :13:12.than the ones we used to put up The Daily Politics is on BBC 2
:13:13. > :13:16.at 11:00am We'll be back here
:13:17. > :13:21.at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:22. > :13:25.it's the Sunday Politics.