:00:35. > :00:41.Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.
:00:42. > :00:44.It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.
:00:45. > :00:46.The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and
:00:47. > :00:52.Tory Business Minister Matt Hancock go head-to-head.
:00:53. > :00:55.The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well
:00:56. > :00:59.for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.
:01:00. > :01:01.Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the
:01:02. > :01:08.Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.
:01:09. > :01:11.The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,
:01:12. > :01:19.joins me from Edinburgh. In the Midlands, with property
:01:20. > :01:35.And with me throughout the show, three top-flight political
:01:36. > :01:38.journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,
:01:39. > :01:52.They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.
:01:53. > :01:54.The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling
:01:55. > :01:58.around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.
:01:59. > :02:00.Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier
:02:01. > :02:02.handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official
:02:03. > :02:05.files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child
:02:06. > :02:10.Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection
:02:11. > :02:15.But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning
:02:16. > :02:20.the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.
:02:21. > :02:26.The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due
:02:27. > :02:30.process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and
:02:31. > :02:34.we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the
:02:35. > :02:37.past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the
:02:38. > :02:42.allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in
:02:43. > :02:47.order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the
:02:48. > :02:50.case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring
:02:51. > :02:55.tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the
:02:56. > :03:00.Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very
:03:01. > :03:03.hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for
:03:04. > :03:07.an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.
:03:08. > :03:12.The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way
:03:13. > :03:16.that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people
:03:17. > :03:20.who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell
:03:21. > :03:24.their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.
:03:25. > :03:28.Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in
:03:29. > :03:35.2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast
:03:36. > :03:37.Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people
:03:38. > :03:41.don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either
:03:42. > :03:46.because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust
:03:47. > :03:50.the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in
:03:51. > :03:54.the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a
:03:55. > :03:57.matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the
:03:58. > :04:03.police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim
:04:04. > :04:04.Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the
:04:05. > :04:07.United States making the allegations lives in the
:04:08. > :04:10.been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister
:04:11. > :04:10.would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem
:04:11. > :04:17.for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem
:04:18. > :04:21.allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to
:04:22. > :04:21.the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime
:04:22. > :04:35.inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the
:04:36. > :04:41.dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations
:04:42. > :04:43.keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it
:04:44. > :04:51.is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is
:04:52. > :04:55.inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is
:04:56. > :04:55.inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after
:04:56. > :05:03.that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by
:05:04. > :05:03.that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require
:05:04. > :05:06.resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the
:05:07. > :05:12.case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country
:05:13. > :05:16.we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I
:05:17. > :05:20.wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes
:05:21. > :05:24.through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the
:05:25. > :05:28.opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then
:05:29. > :05:32.holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this
:05:33. > :05:37.inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be
:05:38. > :05:42.careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.
:05:43. > :05:44.On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,
:05:45. > :05:46.firemen and council workers - will go on strike.
:05:47. > :05:49.Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking
:05:50. > :05:51.on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.
:05:52. > :05:53.As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end
:05:54. > :06:00.Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy
:06:01. > :06:03.and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.
:06:04. > :06:05.So why is there still talk of austerity
:06:06. > :06:10.The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government
:06:11. > :06:18.And accumulated deficits - the national debt -
:06:19. > :06:26.The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.
:06:27. > :06:30.In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned
:06:31. > :06:33.austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance
:06:34. > :06:39.Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.
:06:40. > :06:43.Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5
:06:44. > :06:50.Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -
:06:51. > :06:53.meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed
:06:54. > :07:01.Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -
:07:02. > :07:04.the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative
:07:05. > :07:24.We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition
:07:25. > :07:29.Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I
:07:30. > :07:34.don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at
:07:35. > :07:38.all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural
:07:39. > :07:43.deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and
:07:44. > :07:47.the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the
:07:48. > :07:54.lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze
:07:55. > :07:59.and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had
:08:00. > :08:04.that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan
:08:05. > :08:08.on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.
:08:09. > :08:12.People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in
:08:13. > :08:16.the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and
:08:17. > :08:20.pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is
:08:21. > :08:23.yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this
:08:24. > :08:26.is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike
:08:27. > :08:30.isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does
:08:31. > :08:33.seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They
:08:34. > :08:37.are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including
:08:38. > :08:41.those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really
:08:42. > :08:46.sticks in the throat is the idea that money can be found to give tax
:08:47. > :08:52.cuts to billionaires, to millionaires and to big
:08:53. > :08:58.corporations. But it can't be found to help 500,000 workers in local
:08:59. > :09:00.government, dinner ladies, school meal workers, lollipop men and women
:09:01. > :09:04.who are earning less than the living wage. What do you say to that? We
:09:05. > :09:08.have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public
:09:09. > :09:12.sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.
:09:13. > :09:16.You have said you have protected them. This involves ordinary people,
:09:17. > :09:24.many watching this programme, they have had a 1% pay rise in some cases
:09:25. > :09:30.since 2010. The average gas bill is up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food
:09:31. > :09:36.costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in what way have you protected people
:09:37. > :09:41.from spending they have to make? Firstly, you read out the average
:09:42. > :09:44.increases in public sector pay. That has had the biggest impact at the
:09:45. > :09:49.top end and those at the bottom end have been best protected, as best we
:09:50. > :09:53.could. Of course, we have also taken two million people out of income tax
:09:54. > :09:57.and increased the income tax threshold which has a big positive
:09:58. > :10:01.impact. We have frozen and then cut fuel duty, which would have been 20
:10:02. > :10:05.pence higher. I wanted to take on this point about priorities. We have
:10:06. > :10:10.got to make sure that we get the economy going at the same time and
:10:11. > :10:16.we raised more money from those at the top than we did before 2010,
:10:17. > :10:20.partly because we have encouraged them to invest. And this is a really
:10:21. > :10:25.important balance of making sure we get the books back in order, we have
:10:26. > :10:30.stability for family finances and we get the economy going. Why not
:10:31. > :10:34.spread the living wage? We know you could pay for that pay increase
:10:35. > :10:37.itself if you spread the living wage through the private sector and
:10:38. > :10:44.guarantee... The living wage being above the minimum wage? Absolutely.
:10:45. > :10:52.?7.65 in the rest of the country, ?8.80 in London. What is the answer?
:10:53. > :10:59.I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But not for public sector workers. Being
:11:00. > :11:02.able to pay low-paid workers as much as possible within the constraints
:11:03. > :11:05.of the public finances is something I have pushed very hard. The
:11:06. > :11:10.evidence we can increase the minimum wage has to be balanced which the
:11:11. > :11:18.Low Pay Commission do with the impact on the number of jobs... Even
:11:19. > :11:23.after a pay freeze for quite a while among public sector workers, they
:11:24. > :11:32.are still paid 15% on average more than those in the private sector?
:11:33. > :11:36.That is not true. It is, according to the ONS figures. I read that
:11:37. > :11:40.report this morning. If you look at the whole package, what they are
:11:41. > :11:49.saying is public service workers are worse off. Average earnings in the
:11:50. > :11:55.public sector are ?16.28 an hour compared to ?14.16 private. You are
:11:56. > :11:58.comparing apples and pears. It's the kind of jobs and the size of the
:11:59. > :12:04.workplace that people work in. They are still overall on average better
:12:05. > :12:09.off? Lower paid workers tend to be better off because unions negotiate
:12:10. > :12:17.better deals for lower paid workers. They are more unionised in the pry
:12:18. > :12:22.private sector. The public sector is worse off. This is a political
:12:23. > :12:25.strike, isn't it? There is a whole disparate range of reasons. The
:12:26. > :12:30.strike is saying that you are against this Government, that is
:12:31. > :12:33.what this is about? I this I what firefighters, local government
:12:34. > :12:37.workers and health workers who are protesting, too, alongside teachers
:12:38. > :12:41.are saying is that this Government is not listening, it is out of
:12:42. > :12:45.touch, people can't carry on having cuts in their living standards
:12:46. > :12:50.depending on benefits. When will the public sector worker ever get a real
:12:51. > :12:56.increase in their pay under a Conservative Government? Well, we
:12:57. > :13:01.certainly hope to have the books balanced by 2018. Not before then?
:13:02. > :13:06.2018 is when we hope to be able to be in surplus. It is testament...
:13:07. > :13:15.So, no real pay increase for public sector workers before 2018?
:13:16. > :13:19.Interestingly, this isn't just about the Conservatives and the Lib Dems,
:13:20. > :13:23.the Labour Party leadership have said it is a test of their
:13:24. > :13:26.credibility that they support the squeeze on public sector pay. I look
:13:27. > :13:30.forward to them, they ought to come out and say very clearly that these
:13:31. > :13:33.strikes are wrong and they are against the strikes and stop taking
:13:34. > :13:38.union money. It is a democratic right. Hold on. They are - they
:13:39. > :13:47.think the policy of pay restraint is necessary. Alright. On this point
:13:48. > :13:52.about democracy... Ask yourself why so many ordinary decent public
:13:53. > :13:59.service workers are so fed up. They have seen so many billions of pounds
:14:00. > :14:10.wasted through outsourcing to organisations like G4 S. In Unite
:14:11. > :14:17.and UNISON the turnout in this vote was under 20%. Alright. OK. One
:14:18. > :14:20.final question... Hold on. You said millions and millions voted on
:14:21. > :14:25.this... I want to ask you this question. Is the story in the Mail
:14:26. > :14:30.on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's planning a big crackdown on the
:14:31. > :14:35.unions over balloting, is that true? Well, strikes like this... I know
:14:36. > :14:39.the cases, is it true you are going to dhang the law? Strikes like this
:14:40. > :14:43.make that argument stronger. The Conservative Party is in Government
:14:44. > :14:45.on the basis of 23% of the electorate... We have run out of
:14:46. > :14:49.time. Thank you very much. "Should Scotland be
:14:50. > :14:52.an independent country?" That's the question the people of
:14:53. > :14:54.Scotland will answer in a referendum If the polls are to be believed,
:14:55. > :14:58.the voters will answer "no". But in 2011 - ten weeks before
:14:59. > :15:00.the Holyrood elections - the polls told us that Labour was going to win
:15:01. > :15:02.and look what happened there - a Alistair Darling is leading
:15:03. > :15:25.the campaign against independnence. is one that puts the matter of
:15:26. > :15:31.independence to bed for a generation. In numerical terms, what
:15:32. > :15:36.would that be? We need a decisive result in September, I think we will
:15:37. > :15:40.get that provided we get our arguments across in the next couple
:15:41. > :15:46.of months. What would it be in figures? I am not going to put a
:15:47. > :15:52.number on it. People will look at it and say, OK, you have had two and a
:15:53. > :15:57.half years of debate and Scotland has now decided. The polls may be
:15:58. > :16:01.encouraging at the moment but I am not complacent, there is still a
:16:02. > :16:07.long way to go. Speculating... If you don't want to answer that, that
:16:08. > :16:13.is fair enough. Your side claims that a vote for independence is a
:16:14. > :16:18.vote for massive uncertainty but if it is a no vote there is lots of
:16:19. > :16:21.uncertainty too. All of the Westminster parties are promising
:16:22. > :16:28.devolution but there is no timetable, no certainty. Yes, there
:16:29. > :16:34.is. For the first time I can remember, all three parties are more
:16:35. > :16:41.or less on the same page in terms of additional powers, we already have
:16:42. > :16:45.powers in terms of policing and transport, now more powers are
:16:46. > :16:53.planned in relation to tax and welfare. But you are all saying
:16:54. > :16:56.different things. Between 2009 and 2012, the three parties have
:16:57. > :17:01.slightly different proposals but they came together and there was an
:17:02. > :17:09.agreed series of reforms in relation to tax which are now on the statute
:17:10. > :17:13.book. If you go back to the devolutionary settlement in 1998,
:17:14. > :17:18.people unified around a single proposition so there is history here
:17:19. > :17:21.and these three parties have delivered and they will deliver in
:17:22. > :17:28.the event of people saying we will stay part of the UK. If Scotland
:17:29. > :17:32.vote no to independence, when will Scotland get these extra powers? I
:17:33. > :17:37.would imagine that in the general election all three parties will have
:17:38. > :17:41.something in their manifesto and you would expect to see legislation in
:17:42. > :17:45.the session of Parliament that follows that. Imagining is not
:17:46. > :17:51.certainty. Because the three parties have said this is what they will do,
:17:52. > :17:56.and it is important having said that they stick to it. If you look in the
:17:57. > :18:03.past when the Nationalists said the same thing, when they cast doubt
:18:04. > :18:07.over what would happen in 2012, we delivered. The only party that
:18:08. > :18:11.walked out of both of these discussions were the Nationalists
:18:12. > :18:16.because they are not interested in more powers, they want a complete
:18:17. > :18:21.break. You cannot say that if Edinburgh gets more devolution that
:18:22. > :18:27.wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in Westminster, can you? Nobody has any
:18:28. > :18:34.plans to reduce the number of MPs. If you step back from this moment,
:18:35. > :18:37.what people have been asked to do in September is to vote on the future
:18:38. > :18:43.of their country, Scotland, and whether we should be part of the UK.
:18:44. > :18:46.When I say part of the UK, full members of the UK with
:18:47. > :18:50.representation in the House of Commons and the institutions that
:18:51. > :18:57.affect our lives. This is a critically important vote. We want
:18:58. > :19:01.to see more decentralisation of power to Scotland, and to local
:19:02. > :19:06.authorities within Scotland, but we don't want a complete break with the
:19:07. > :19:11.uncertainties, the risks and the downright disadvantages that would
:19:12. > :19:21.throw Scotland's away if we were to make that break. The economic
:19:22. > :19:39.arguments are dominating people's thinking, the polls show, that is
:19:40. > :19:42.what is dominating at the moment. You cannot guarantee continued
:19:43. > :19:49.membership of the European Union given all the talk now about an
:19:50. > :19:54.in-out UK referendum. Firstly I don't think anyone has ever argued
:19:55. > :19:58.Scotland wouldn't get back in. The big question is the terms and
:19:59. > :20:02.conditions we would have to meet and we are applying to get into
:20:03. > :20:09.something that is established, it wouldn't be a negotiation. What we
:20:10. > :20:13.have said is there is no way Europe would let Scotland keep the rebate
:20:14. > :20:20.which Scotland has, there would be big questions over whether we have
:20:21. > :20:25.to join the euro, and other terms and conditions. The European Union
:20:26. > :20:30.does not act with any great speed, on average it takes eight and a half
:20:31. > :20:34.years to get into Europe. I don't want that uncertainty or the
:20:35. > :20:41.disadvantages that would come Scotland's away that come with
:20:42. > :20:47.losing clout in the European Union. The second point you asked me about
:20:48. > :20:51.is in relation to the UK's membership of the European Union,
:20:52. > :21:01.and if you look at polls, the majority of people still want to
:21:02. > :21:06.stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of people on my side didn't make the
:21:07. > :21:12.argument against independence for a long time, we have been doing that
:21:13. > :21:18.over the last two and a half years and we are making progress and that
:21:19. > :21:21.is why I can say I think we will win provided we continue to get our
:21:22. > :21:26.arguments across. Similarly with the European Union, the case needs to be
:21:27. > :21:33.made because it is a powerful case. Isn't it true that the Nationalists
:21:34. > :21:41.win either way? They win if it is a yes vote, and they win if it is a no
:21:42. > :21:48.vote. They wanted devolution max so they win either way. There is a
:21:49. > :21:52.world of difference between devolution and further devolution
:21:53. > :21:58.where you remain part of the UK. There is a world of difference
:21:59. > :22:02.between that and making a break, where Scotland becomes a foreign
:22:03. > :22:07.country to the rest of the UK. You lose that security and those
:22:08. > :22:16.opportunities. You lose the same currency, the opportunity with
:22:17. > :22:21.pensions and so on. They are entitled to argue this case with
:22:22. > :22:27.passion, they want a break, but the two things are worlds apart. Gordon
:22:28. > :22:31.Brown said that the no campaign was too negative, have you adjusted to
:22:32. > :22:36.take that criticism into account? Ever since I launched this campaign
:22:37. > :22:42.over two years ago I said we would make a strong powerful case for
:22:43. > :22:48.remaining part of the UK. Look at our research, where we have had
:22:49. > :22:52.warnings from people to say that if we do well with research in Scotland
:22:53. > :22:58.we get more than our population share of the grand and we gain from
:22:59. > :23:03.that. There is a positive case but equally nobody will stop me from
:23:04. > :23:07.saying to the Nationalists, look at the assertions you make which are
:23:08. > :23:11.collapsing like skittles at the moment. Their assertions don't stand
:23:12. > :23:17.up. They assert that somehow milk and honey will be flowing. It is
:23:18. > :23:23.perfectly healthy within a referendum campaign to say that what
:23:24. > :23:39.you are saying simply isn't true. You have been negative, we all know
:23:40. > :23:48.about the so-called Cyber Nats book you compared Alex Salmond to the
:23:49. > :23:53.leader of North Korea. On! The context was that Alex Salmond was
:23:54. > :23:59.being asked why it was that UKIP had additional seat and he appeared to
:24:00. > :24:05.blame television being been doing from another country, from BBC South
:24:06. > :24:14.of the border. If you cannot have humour in a debate, heaven help us.
:24:15. > :24:18.I think it is important in this debate that people from outside
:24:19. > :24:23.politics should be allowed to have their say whatever side they are on
:24:24. > :24:28.because that will make for a far better, healthier debate. Nobody
:24:29. > :24:33.should be put in a state of fear and alarm by worrying about what will
:24:34. > :24:38.happen if they stand up. Despite the nastiness, more and more people are
:24:39. > :24:46.making a stand. We have run out of time. Thank you.
:24:47. > :24:54.I will be talking to the SNP's hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon,
:24:55. > :24:58.next week on Sunday Politics. Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will
:24:59. > :25:03.be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow. Disastrous results in the European
:25:04. > :25:09.elections, it is fair to say the Lib Dems are down in the doldrums. In a
:25:10. > :25:18.moment I will be speaking to Nick Clegg, but first Emily has been
:25:19. > :25:33.asking what Lib Dems would say to the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister
:25:34. > :25:37.on Call Clegg. Our phone in this week is the challenges facing the
:25:38. > :25:41.Liberal Democrats. They are rock bottom in the polls and have dire
:25:42. > :25:46.results in the local and European elections so what can the party do
:25:47. > :25:51.to turn things around? Get in touch, we are going straight to line
:25:52. > :25:57.one and Gareth. How much is a problem of that loss of local
:25:58. > :26:01.support? It is a massive problem because those are the building
:26:02. > :26:07.blocks of our success. The councillors who gets the case work
:26:08. > :26:13.done are also the people who go out and deliver the leaflets and knock
:26:14. > :26:18.on doors. Interesting, and it is not just local support the party has
:26:19. > :26:22.lost, is it? In the next general election there are some big-name
:26:23. > :26:31.Liberal Democrat MPs standing down like Malcolm Bruce and Ming
:26:32. > :26:37.Campbell, how much of a problem will that be? That is a real challenge
:26:38. > :26:42.and we have some of our brightest and best reaching an age of maturity
:26:43. > :26:47.at the same moment so that is quite an additional test in what will be a
:26:48. > :26:52.difficult election anyway. So how does the party need to position
:26:53. > :26:58.itself to win back support? Let's go to Chris online free, has the party
:26:59. > :27:07.got its strategy right? There is always a danger of appearing to be a
:27:08. > :27:10.party that merely dilutes Labour or dilutes the Conservatives. We have a
:27:11. > :27:15.of is serious, positive messages and we need to get those across in the
:27:16. > :27:20.next election because if we don't people will vote for the Tories.
:27:21. > :27:26.Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I
:27:27. > :27:32.have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good
:27:33. > :27:37.stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may
:27:38. > :27:41.think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing
:27:42. > :28:10.on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.
:28:11. > :28:14.Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the
:28:15. > :28:17.doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.
:28:18. > :28:22.Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There
:28:23. > :28:27.is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people
:28:28. > :28:30.who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a
:28:31. > :28:35.timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We
:28:36. > :28:40.are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What
:28:41. > :28:45.are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious
:28:46. > :28:50.long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of
:28:51. > :28:54.the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back
:28:55. > :28:57.decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented
:28:58. > :29:00.in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue
:29:01. > :29:04.ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going
:29:05. > :29:09.to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how
:29:10. > :29:14.well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we
:29:15. > :29:16.are going to finish with an old classic now.
:29:17. > :29:19.# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the
:29:20. > :29:23.programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you
:29:24. > :29:26.will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and
:29:27. > :29:28.historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it
:29:29. > :29:32.mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry
:29:33. > :29:41.into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything
:29:42. > :29:57.it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.
:29:58. > :30:02.delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an
:30:03. > :30:06.inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,
:30:07. > :30:09.serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home
:30:10. > :30:13.Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in
:30:14. > :30:18.the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are
:30:19. > :30:23.looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken
:30:24. > :30:29.place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,
:30:30. > :30:34.truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,
:30:35. > :30:37.is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but
:30:38. > :30:42.there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195
:30:43. > :30:45.involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree
:30:46. > :30:51.that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home
:30:52. > :30:54.Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been
:30:55. > :31:00.mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate
:31:01. > :31:04.themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and
:31:05. > :31:07.the police need to make sure that the police investigations are
:31:08. > :31:13.thorough, well resourced. I can't think of anything more horrendous, I
:31:14. > :31:16.can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse
:31:17. > :31:20.still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse
:31:21. > :31:24.the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at
:31:25. > :31:30.the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only
:31:31. > :31:32.way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting
:31:33. > :31:38.authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about
:31:39. > :31:42.what other inquiries take place. A number of other inquiries are taking
:31:43. > :31:45.place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second
:31:46. > :31:49.guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.
:31:50. > :31:51.All I would say is that people who have information, who want to
:31:52. > :31:55.provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in
:31:56. > :32:00.touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry
:32:01. > :32:04.into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself
:32:05. > :32:08.and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is
:32:09. > :32:14.called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not
:32:15. > :32:19.called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two
:32:20. > :32:22.parties who retain different identities, different values, have
:32:23. > :32:26.different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament
:32:27. > :32:30.have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency
:32:31. > :32:34.back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a
:32:35. > :32:37.precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political
:32:38. > :32:40.challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal
:32:41. > :32:43.Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without
:32:44. > :32:46.the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic
:32:47. > :32:49.recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why
:32:50. > :32:57.aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we
:32:58. > :33:01.spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal
:33:02. > :33:06.Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They
:33:07. > :33:14.don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the
:33:15. > :33:18.recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will
:33:19. > :33:23.shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by
:33:24. > :33:26.forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the
:33:27. > :33:30.Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public
:33:31. > :33:32.finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the
:33:33. > :33:36.case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they
:33:37. > :33:41.wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered
:33:42. > :33:48.the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.
:33:49. > :33:53.Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our
:33:54. > :34:03.message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a
:34:04. > :34:08.constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot
:34:09. > :34:12.of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into
:34:13. > :34:16.Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can
:34:17. > :34:22.touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and
:34:23. > :34:27.then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were
:34:28. > :34:29.winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. It
:34:30. > :34:33.is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left
:34:34. > :34:37.and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in
:34:38. > :34:42.Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -
:34:43. > :34:47.having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in
:34:48. > :34:53.our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more
:34:54. > :35:01.support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib
:35:02. > :35:05.Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a
:35:06. > :35:11.National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a
:35:12. > :35:15.National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we
:35:16. > :35:19.have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much
:35:20. > :35:22.time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing
:35:23. > :35:28.that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in
:35:29. > :35:31.challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we
:35:32. > :35:34.have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more
:35:35. > :35:38.Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering
:35:39. > :35:43.before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal
:35:44. > :35:46.reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been
:35:47. > :35:51.setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure
:35:52. > :35:55.teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in
:35:56. > :36:01.school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company
:36:02. > :36:04.from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with
:36:05. > :36:09.education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values
:36:10. > :36:15.that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out
:36:16. > :36:23.and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that
:36:24. > :36:27.you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the
:36:28. > :36:30.leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into
:36:31. > :36:35.Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because
:36:36. > :36:39.you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of
:36:40. > :36:43.that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken
:36:44. > :36:46.economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that
:36:47. > :36:50.party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say
:36:51. > :36:53.that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a
:36:54. > :36:58.good reason for that. They didn't win the election. The left say that
:36:59. > :37:02.somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in, day
:37:03. > :37:07.out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to
:37:08. > :37:15.buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from
:37:16. > :37:21.left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to
:37:22. > :37:26.fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.
:37:27. > :37:31.Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it
:37:32. > :37:34.won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the
:37:35. > :37:38.referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.
:37:39. > :37:41.With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u
:37:42. > :37:46.powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have
:37:47. > :37:52.said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change.
:37:53. > :37:55.Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep
:37:56. > :38:02.Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of
:38:03. > :38:08.what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to
:38:09. > :38:12.serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has
:38:13. > :38:15.done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years
:38:16. > :38:18.to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not
:38:19. > :38:24.just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some
:38:25. > :38:29.heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger
:38:30. > :38:34.of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in
:38:35. > :38:44.Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of
:38:45. > :38:49.that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near
:38:50. > :38:54.Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them
:38:55. > :38:58.later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm
:38:59. > :39:02.sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.
:39:03. > :39:05.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:39:06. > :39:09.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:39:10. > :39:11.for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:39:12. > :39:19.the Week Ahead. First
:39:20. > :40:41.We need urgent action to tackle this housing shortage. People are being
:40:42. > :40:47.priced out, those on low incomes but also on Middle England 's.
:40:48. > :40:50.A precise example of a failing market crying out for the
:40:51. > :40:56.intervention of a future Labour Government. We have many schemes to
:40:57. > :41:02.help people buy their own home. This is a volatile market where supply
:41:03. > :41:09.has fallen back massively. That happened in 2008. The market went
:41:10. > :41:13.from boom to massive bust, and this Government is rebuilding once again.
:41:14. > :41:16.1920s. OK. To be continued ` we've set the
:41:17. > :41:19.scene there, because the big idea behind the Housing Federation's
:41:20. > :41:21.campaign is that house building here is failing to keep pace with
:41:22. > :41:24.population growth, while wages are lagging ever further behind housing
:41:25. > :41:27.costs. The average deposit for anyone hoping to buy here is now
:41:28. > :41:30.more than ?30,000. And last year only around 9,000 homes were built
:41:31. > :41:33.here, that's one of the lowest totals in any English region. Our
:41:34. > :41:36.BBC Shropshire political reporter Joanne Gallacher, has been talking
:41:37. > :41:37.to some of the people hardest hit when supply and demand go their
:41:38. > :41:47.separate ways. Lizz Wright can't afford to get on
:41:48. > :41:49.the property ladder, so after months of renting she's moved her family in
:41:50. > :42:03.with her mum and dad in Birmingham. It is difficult after living on your
:42:04. > :42:08.own and obviously having children, but we thought long and hard and
:42:09. > :42:12.thought a year would fly by. Hopefully we could have got the
:42:13. > :42:17.deposit. In recent years has prices have
:42:18. > :42:23.risen by 56% in the West Midlands. Three bedroomed houses in the Kings
:42:24. > :42:27.Heath area can cost up to a quarter of a quarter of ?1 million. With two
:42:28. > :42:32.children under three, it has been difficult to say for a deposit.
:42:33. > :42:38.We saved as much as possible but didn't seem to be getting anywhere.
:42:39. > :42:44.We were dipping into the savings with birthdays and Christmas is.
:42:45. > :42:49.Part of the problem is a shortage of new homes. That is something they
:42:50. > :42:55.are addressing at Telford in Shropshire where the local authority
:42:56. > :42:58.is keen to expand. The past year saw nearly 900 homes built in the
:42:59. > :43:05.borough. Building houses gives more
:43:06. > :43:12.incomplete counsel for its Budget `` income to the council. And I think
:43:13. > :43:16.it is important for the country, we need growth points that drive the
:43:17. > :43:21.British economy forward. But getting on the property ladder
:43:22. > :43:26.is not cheap. The average deposit needed is in `` is around ?35,000,
:43:27. > :43:31.the average house costs around ?173,000.
:43:32. > :43:37.Building new homes might seem the simple solution to the problem, but
:43:38. > :43:40.finding the land to put them on is often difficult and controversial.
:43:41. > :43:45.One MP whose constituency is next to Telford has objectives ``
:43:46. > :43:49.objections. I am concerned about the urban
:43:50. > :43:55.sprawl, and that there may be secret plans for the council to want a
:43:56. > :44:00.city. If they want city status I think there needs to be a public
:44:01. > :44:02.consultation. What we don't need is city status through the back door
:44:03. > :44:09.which means bulldozing over greenfield sites.
:44:10. > :44:10.For this family, the drive for more affordable homes cannot come soon
:44:11. > :44:14.enough. with her mum and dad in Birmingham.
:44:15. > :44:17.Joanne Gallacher there, on what certainly looks, Mark, like a very
:44:18. > :44:20.vicious vicious circle where you've got a housing crisis which is
:44:21. > :44:23.driving prices and rentals up, which in turn is making the housing crisis
:44:24. > :44:28.worse, and people like Lizz there are sort of absolutely stuck.
:44:29. > :44:34.We do understand people are finding it difficult, so it is a pity that
:44:35. > :44:39.your film crew were not able to come over to rugby were my constituents
:44:40. > :44:47.have just bought their very first house using the Government's Help to
:44:48. > :44:51.Buy scheme. I met them at the weekend, and they could buy with a
:44:52. > :45:01.5% deposit, which meant only saving ?9,000. Their first home cost
:45:02. > :45:06.?160,000 on a Brownfield site. But in the first nine months only 17,000
:45:07. > :45:14.homes were purchased in this way, which is welcome, but it is a drop
:45:15. > :45:19.in the bucket. 55% of the people who are taking up Help to Buy our
:45:20. > :45:25.first`time buyers, and we have 108 people in rugby who have benefited.
:45:26. > :45:30.In Wolverhampton there are 100s to people have benefited. There is a
:45:31. > :45:35.scheme here which is helping young people to achieve their dream of
:45:36. > :45:39.getting their own home. It is making a dent on the problem.
:45:40. > :45:45.Successive governments of difficult political colours have had different
:45:46. > :45:53.schemes, but help to build `` helped needs to be much `` matched by a
:45:54. > :45:59.help to build. There is a market where there is problems with land
:46:00. > :46:03.supply but also dominance of the big house`builders. We have urged the
:46:04. > :46:07.Government to make sure that the smaller house`builders are helped by
:46:08. > :46:11.into the market. We have encouraged a guarantee that for small builders
:46:12. > :46:21.`` because we are seeing a shortage in supply. Very small numbers being
:46:22. > :46:23.built. 450,000 new homes were built in the past four years. If you talk
:46:24. > :46:29.to builders right now they are operating flat out. There are
:46:30. > :46:36.shortages of material because in 2008 many production companies came
:46:37. > :46:50.into difficulties. One of the things we have done is modified applying ``
:46:51. > :46:55.planning system so that it is incumbent on local authorities ``
:46:56. > :46:59.communities can determine where development takes places. `` takes
:47:00. > :47:05.place. Your constituency is not 1 million
:47:06. > :47:14.miles from Telford. How would you feel about enlarging Telford? Tough
:47:15. > :47:19.it is a very successful new town which was started some decades ago.
:47:20. > :47:23.`` Telford. They have continued to build new homes for people but keep
:47:24. > :47:29.green spaces in between those different developments. We have only
:47:30. > :47:36.built on 9% of land in England, we have the land for significant
:47:37. > :47:40.numbers of homes, and housing starts are falling off according to
:47:41. > :47:43.documents seen this week from the Government's own department. What we
:47:44. > :47:48.need is determination by Government, leadership by Government and for the
:47:49. > :47:54.house`builders to really step up to the mark both big and small
:47:55. > :48:00.house`builders. Labour has broached an idea of a cap
:48:01. > :48:03.on rent increases in the private sector. David Cameron said you were
:48:04. > :48:11.on record as saying this was not going to work. I am against
:48:12. > :48:14.introducing 1970s rent control. We are suggesting that families and
:48:15. > :48:20.couples and people now settled in the private rented sector, renting
:48:21. > :48:24.from a private landlord, should have three`year tenancies, and at the end
:48:25. > :48:30.of the first and second year they would be a cap on the increase of
:48:31. > :48:35.those rounds. That is a metaphor agreement between and tenants. We
:48:36. > :48:42.have a new area `` era of buy to let landlords. It doesn't need
:48:43. > :48:49.legislation. Families don't have that peace of mind at the start of
:48:50. > :48:53.their tenancy. The private rented sector is providing a useful role
:48:54. > :48:57.for people who want to be mobile and those wanting to get into owner
:48:58. > :49:01.occupation. It is not fit for purpose, I am afraid.
:49:02. > :49:05.are sort of absolutely stuck. All right, well, clearly I think we
:49:06. > :49:08.could go on all afternoon with this ? for the moment, thank you very
:49:09. > :49:10.much indeed. Well, a weekend of commemorative events is marking the
:49:11. > :49:13.100th anniversary of the death of the man widely regarded as the
:49:14. > :49:15.father of local government. Joseph Chamberlain turned Birmingham City
:49:16. > :49:18.Council into such a powerful presence that he left a lasting
:49:19. > :49:21.impression to this day. But is local government now about to undergo an
:49:22. > :49:23.equally fundamental upheaval? Next year, councils must make savings
:49:24. > :49:26.equivalent to 12.5% off their budgets because of a ?5.8 billion
:49:27. > :49:29.funding gap. Well, it's against this background that the leader of Dudley
:49:30. > :49:32.Council, David Sparks, takes over as the Chairman of the Local Government
:49:33. > :49:34.Association which speaks for 400 councils across England and Wales.
:49:35. > :49:36.Well, when I joined him in the council house I began by suggesting
:49:37. > :49:56.he was picking up a poisoned Chalice.
:49:57. > :50:01.We are in a very difficult period for local Government, but there is
:50:02. > :50:06.an opportunity with the General Election to influence all of the
:50:07. > :50:08.parties' manifestoes. You have said local authorities should stop
:50:09. > :50:15.moaning from the sidelines and work together on what sounds like a
:50:16. > :50:18.pretty radical shake`up of local Government finance including maybe
:50:19. > :50:23.hanging onto the proceeds of the local business rate. Is this
:50:24. > :50:27.achievable given the track record of successive governments in holding
:50:28. > :50:29.onto the power and money centrally? We don't need their current degree
:50:30. > :50:37.of centralisation. And we are of centralisation. And we are
:50:38. > :50:44.producing a group went for whatever Government is formed after 2015. ``
:50:45. > :50:48.a blueprint. We can argue that greater devolution than to local
:50:49. > :50:52.authorities is a more economic and efficient way of delivering public
:50:53. > :50:57.services. As the first Labour chairman of the LGA for ten years,
:50:58. > :51:03.are you saying to me that as a Labour chairman you will be as
:51:04. > :51:06.assiduous on behalf of issues raised by Conservative councils as you will
:51:07. > :51:13.with those raised by the Labour counterparts? Absolutely. Where we
:51:14. > :51:20.need to change is that the LGA needs to be far more astute in using the
:51:21. > :51:26.group leaders, the different parties, given that we are a hard
:51:27. > :51:32.organisation, to pursue party aims. `` hon. So that we cannot being ``
:51:33. > :51:37.be accused of just having a consensus around the lowest common
:51:38. > :51:44.denominator. There is talk at the moment about the wider city region
:51:45. > :51:46.to mention, thinking for example of Greater Birmingham. Where do you
:51:47. > :51:54.stand on this point from the tooth partly of Dudley and also from the
:51:55. > :51:59.LGA's position? In the West Midlands if we don't have an organisation
:52:00. > :52:03.similar to greater Manchester, we will suffer internationally because
:52:04. > :52:08.we are in global competition. Clearly individual local authorities
:52:09. > :52:13.cannot deliver all of those services within their boundaries any more. In
:52:14. > :52:20.the Black Country, the boundaries are ridiculous. My own ward is
:52:21. > :52:33.indistinguishable from Cradley Heath. In years to come when people
:52:34. > :52:37.look back on your chairmanship, what do you want your defining themes,
:52:38. > :52:43.your legacy, to be seen as? I would have hoped that by the time I step
:52:44. > :52:48.down, the role of local Government will once again be entrenched in the
:52:49. > :52:52.Constitution of the country. But people will realise that local
:52:53. > :52:58.Government is not a branch of central Government, but it exists in
:52:59. > :53:03.its own right. I would hope that we will be a viable organisation on our
:53:04. > :53:13.own, like we used to be, but not determined `` to `` it is the case
:53:14. > :53:21.that in effect local councils are still operating on a 19th century
:53:22. > :53:23.model. We are now in the 21st century, everything has changed, and
:53:24. > :53:29.we need to change. I wonder what Joseph Chamberlain
:53:30. > :53:35.would think? David Sparks takes over just as over 1 million public sector
:53:36. > :53:39.workers prepared to go on strike on Thursday, so he is right in at the
:53:40. > :53:43.deep end. The LGA say they're disappointed about the strike. You
:53:44. > :53:49.disappointed? I would urge both parties to get back round the table,
:53:50. > :53:53.it is not fair on families with children, the children are not going
:53:54. > :53:58.to be going to school as a result of these strikes this week coming, and
:53:59. > :54:01.it will be tough for everybody involved. I would rather the
:54:02. > :54:07.Government and trade unions can avoid the strike. With the main
:54:08. > :54:10.public sector unions all lining up together, are getting towards the
:54:11. > :54:18.time for beer and sandwiches at under ten? I don't think these trade
:54:19. > :54:24.unions should be striking, there is much more negotiation that can be
:54:25. > :54:29.done. People rely on these services. They strike should be a matter of
:54:30. > :54:33.complete and at a last resort. I do not get any feeling that
:54:34. > :54:40.negotiations have been taken as far as they can be. We have had some
:54:41. > :54:43.difficult years, but there has been massive restraint across all of the
:54:44. > :54:49.public sector. I think people need to be patient and we need to get our
:54:50. > :54:53.economy growing again, then we will be able to have the revenue and
:54:54. > :54:57.income to affect the kind of increases people might like to have.
:54:58. > :55:00.If Labour come in, you will not be able to walk away from the restraint
:55:01. > :55:04.that goes with austerity because you will still have the devastating
:55:05. > :55:11.destruction `` deficit reduction strategies. What is disappointing
:55:12. > :55:15.about what has happened to local Government under this Government is
:55:16. > :55:18.that although David Cameron before the last General Election said local
:55:19. > :55:24.Government was the most efficient part of the public sector, he went
:55:25. > :55:26.on to subject local Government to the biggest cuts in the public
:55:27. > :55:31.sector, and what seems to be happening is that this Tory led
:55:32. > :55:35.Government is saying to local Government, only do what you need to
:55:36. > :55:40.do, and David Sparkes and his predecessor have both said there are
:55:41. > :55:43.some councils which will not be viable given the scale of the cuts
:55:44. > :55:50.they are being subjected to. He is obviously in terms of a
:55:51. > :55:54.radical reform agenda for local Government seeing the General
:55:55. > :55:59.Election as an opportunity of working his way into the manifestoes
:56:00. > :56:04.of your parties in terms of the structures and a revamp of local
:56:05. > :56:11.Government. We all want to see local Government work better, but we will
:56:12. > :56:16.not have a top`down reorganisation with regional assemblies. People did
:56:17. > :56:20.not want that, and we have allowed those local authorities who want to
:56:21. > :56:24.work together to get together and work together. A great example is
:56:25. > :56:29.the local enterprise partnerships. Coventry City in the middle of
:56:30. > :56:30.Warwickshire, and we have two authorities coming together and
:56:31. > :56:35.working in the best interests of all working in the best interests of all
:56:36. > :56:40.the residents of that area, able to drive forward economic growth. Let
:56:41. > :56:42.us let authorities work together in the best interests of their
:56:43. > :56:49.residence rather than governments saying we know best. Is it time for
:56:50. > :57:02.something like Greater Birmingham, a city region? Speaking as a black
:57:03. > :57:08.country MP. I don't feel part of Greater Birmingham, but I agree with
:57:09. > :57:10.Mark that I would like to see a greater number of local authorities
:57:11. > :57:16.in specific areas working more closely together. Great and is is an
:57:17. > :57:26.example where there is real collaboration. Brush Mike `` greater
:57:27. > :57:31.Manchester. Greater Manchester shows it can be done. Let us hope the
:57:32. > :57:32.authorities in and around Birmingham and the Black Country can get
:57:33. > :57:48.together. he was picking up a poisoned
:57:49. > :57:51.Well, let's catch up now with some of the other political developments
:57:52. > :57:55.making the news here over the past week. Our roundup in 60 seconds is
:57:56. > :57:56.brought to us today by BBC Coventry and Warwickshire's Drivetime
:57:57. > :57:59.presenter, Phil Upton. It's Coventry City Council 1,
:58:00. > :58:02.Coventry City Football Club 0, after a judge ruled it was legal for the
:58:03. > :58:04.authority to loan ?14 million of public money to the owners of the
:58:05. > :58:07.Ricoh Arena. The sale of the NEC Group is moving
:58:08. > :58:10.closer, with strong interest reported from potential bidders.
:58:11. > :58:12.Birmingham City Council put it up for sale in March.
:58:13. > :58:14.A campaign's begun to delay elections for a new West Midlands
:58:15. > :58:17.police and crime commissioner until September. The sudden death of Bob
:58:18. > :58:21.Jones prompted a flood of tributes. The most important thing for him was
:58:22. > :58:24.being the voice of the community ? not his voice, he said "My voice is
:58:25. > :58:31.not important, it's what the people want." And that's public service.
:58:32. > :58:34.Telford and Wrekin Council wants to borrow ?120 million to help
:58:35. > :58:37.Donnington's bid to become the main supply base for the armed forces.
:58:38. > :58:40.And primary schools in Coventry could be left out of pocket, by the
:58:41. > :58:43.new free school meal policy. The Government's given the council
:58:44. > :58:56.nearly ?1 million to pay for it, but they say the cost is ?2 million.
:58:57. > :59:01.We have since heard that campaign for a delay to the Police
:59:02. > :59:06.Commissioner by`election has failed. It will take place on Thursday 21st
:59:07. > :59:14.August. There does have to be an issue around the timing in terms of
:59:15. > :59:19.turnout during August, but also the question of sensitivity so soon
:59:20. > :59:24.after Bob Jones's death. Bob Jones was not only a colleague but a dear
:59:25. > :59:29.friend, and I think it is disrespectful that a couple of
:59:30. > :59:32.people have urged the rest of the region to rush into this. People in
:59:33. > :59:38.Wolverhampton are still reeling from what has happened. He was a
:59:39. > :59:43.councillor for decades, he dedicated his life to public service. His wife
:59:44. > :59:47.and family feel it has been disrespectful that there has been
:59:48. > :59:51.this rush by these two individuals to bring forward the by`election. I
:59:52. > :59:56.think it is incredibly disrespectful. On the question of
:59:57. > :00:02.turnout, the danger from your Government's want of you is it is
:00:03. > :00:05.bound to be seen as a referendum on the success or failure of Police and
:00:06. > :00:14.Crime Commissioners. `` point of view. Turnout will be low. There
:00:15. > :00:19.should be some deferral. I noticed in the tributes that
:00:20. > :00:22.adjectives like kind, intelligent and unassuming where some of the
:00:23. > :00:28.adjectives applied. Not usually the kind of urging lives applied to
:00:29. > :00:34.party politicians. I didn't know Bob, he I know he was an excellent
:00:35. > :00:41.Police and Crime Commissioner and I'm sure he will sorely missed. He
:00:42. > :00:46.was incredibly warm and generous, and he always wanted to do the right
:00:47. > :00:51.thing. He was wanted to serve the community in which he lived. I hope
:00:52. > :00:55.we can remember him for the good things he did. I really regret the
:00:56. > :01:00.that this has happened, and that even before his funeral, even before
:01:01. > :01:04.we have had a chance to take in what happened, it was a very sudden,
:01:05. > :01:10.tragic death and a loss to all of us.
:01:11. > :01:15.If we can turn to free school meals, the Liberal Democrats pushed
:01:16. > :01:19.for this one in Coventry. Do you think your Coalition partner has got
:01:20. > :01:24.that from? George Osborne made sure funds were available. If Coventry
:01:25. > :01:30.don't think they are getting enough money, it's as like their local MPs
:01:31. > :01:35.need to be telling them what is needed. `` telling the Treasury. I
:01:36. > :01:43.would like to see covered to make the case.
:01:44. > :01:47.`` Coventry. Finally from me, the redistribution
:01:48. > :01:52.of wealth. You may remember Hereford's Conservative MP Colin for
:01:53. > :01:57.it in our programme two weeks ago because Herefordshire, Coventry and
:01:58. > :02:02.Stoke councils have all become embroiled in the finances of the
:02:03. > :02:05.local football clubs. Now, the Labour MP for Birmingham Hall Green
:02:06. > :02:08.has tabled a Commons motion demanding that Premier League's
:02:09. > :02:11.television money should be spread more evenly throughout food. That
:02:12. > :02:15.may even progress in London was being made
:02:16. > :02:17.before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to
:02:18. > :02:21.you. What will Thursday's mass
:02:22. > :02:23.public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker
:02:24. > :02:25.attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking
:02:26. > :02:48.about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt
:02:49. > :02:53.Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the
:02:54. > :02:57.TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be
:02:58. > :03:01.telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that
:03:02. > :03:08.and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any
:03:09. > :03:15.economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because
:03:16. > :03:19.the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector
:03:20. > :03:24.job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the
:03:25. > :03:29.economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so
:03:30. > :03:33.they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years
:03:34. > :03:38.ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is
:03:39. > :03:43.naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,
:03:44. > :03:48.they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come
:03:49. > :03:53.out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram
:03:54. > :03:56.Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of
:03:57. > :03:59.strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question
:04:00. > :04:03.that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.
:04:04. > :04:06.The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --
:04:07. > :04:13.every time there is a strike, this idea of cutting it to ballots and
:04:14. > :04:17.local election turnout was a third. Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of
:04:18. > :04:23.London with 38% turnout. We need to talk about-turnout across our
:04:24. > :04:28.democracy. That is an easy rebuttal for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was
:04:29. > :04:33.hardline about changing the strike law. When you asked him the
:04:34. > :04:36.question, if you are not going to stabilise the public finances till
:04:37. > :04:41.2018, does this mean the pay freeze or no real term pay increase in the
:04:42. > :04:48.public sector will increase till 2018, h e was inner vous on that
:04:49. > :04:52.one. -- he was nervous on that one. This strike is different to those
:04:53. > :04:55.strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour
:04:56. > :05:01.Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,
:05:02. > :05:06.not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time
:05:07. > :05:12.round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about
:05:13. > :05:16.wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the
:05:17. > :05:24.recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky
:05:25. > :05:28.territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something
:05:29. > :05:35.out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase
:05:36. > :05:38.in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a
:05:39. > :05:41.problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they
:05:42. > :05:46.would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are
:05:47. > :05:49.locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going
:05:50. > :05:58.to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some
:05:59. > :06:03.politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do
:06:04. > :06:07.we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan
:06:08. > :06:12.Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are
:06:13. > :06:15.some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse.
:06:16. > :06:20.Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do
:06:21. > :06:25.on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile
:06:26. > :06:30.state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or
:06:31. > :06:35.in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was
:06:36. > :06:38.a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten
:06:39. > :06:42.months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember
:06:43. > :06:50.them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that
:06:51. > :07:02.last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were
:07:03. > :07:06.trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had
:07:07. > :07:13.something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There
:07:14. > :07:17.are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance
:07:18. > :07:20.of it! If the most recent polls are to be
:07:21. > :07:23.believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -
:07:24. > :07:26.clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the
:07:27. > :07:29.appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission
:07:30. > :07:32.president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP
:07:33. > :07:35.contingent to Strasbourg for the first session
:07:36. > :07:55.of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to
:07:56. > :07:59.say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50
:08:00. > :08:03.years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that
:08:04. > :08:08.want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our
:08:09. > :08:15.countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we
:08:16. > :08:22.will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!
:08:23. > :08:24.It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the
:08:25. > :08:27.Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.
:08:28. > :08:29.Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -
:08:30. > :08:31.Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.
:08:32. > :08:42.Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is
:08:43. > :08:48.probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know
:08:49. > :08:51.well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my
:08:52. > :08:56.qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are
:08:57. > :09:01.your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of
:09:02. > :09:07.UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative
:09:08. > :09:13.values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It
:09:14. > :09:18.would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block
:09:19. > :09:20.of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have
:09:21. > :09:24.that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the
:09:25. > :09:29.luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He
:09:30. > :09:34.would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to
:09:35. > :09:38.stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little
:09:39. > :09:41.sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people
:09:42. > :09:45.who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority
:09:46. > :09:49.Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are
:09:50. > :09:54.offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of
:09:55. > :09:59.those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will
:10:00. > :10:04.put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is
:10:05. > :10:13.between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle
:10:14. > :10:17.Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The danger to this country is another
:10:18. > :10:21.Labour Government. That is one of the main reasons that I left UKIP in
:10:22. > :10:25.2005 because that last five years of the Labour Government was the most
:10:26. > :10:29.dangerous to the fundamentals of Britain that we have ever seen. I'm
:10:30. > :10:40.happy with the Conservatives. I have full Conservative values. I am a
:10:41. > :10:49.Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining us. The Westminster bubble yet
:10:50. > :10:55.again, which has a herd mentality, a bubble with a herd mentality, it got
:10:56. > :11:01.it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's isolated, he is useless at
:11:02. > :11:05.diplomacy, all of which may be true, but the British people liked it and
:11:06. > :11:09.his backbenchers liked it? True. Although some of us would say it is
:11:10. > :11:13.possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment
:11:14. > :11:25.of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically
:11:26. > :11:30.and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We
:11:31. > :11:37.saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005
:11:38. > :11:40.General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.
:11:41. > :11:44.The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering
:11:45. > :11:49.12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his
:11:50. > :11:53.veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is
:11:54. > :11:58.embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.
:11:59. > :12:03.He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not
:12:04. > :12:12.conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the
:12:13. > :12:18.polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are
:12:19. > :12:22.supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different --
:12:23. > :12:27.the selection is very clever for a different reason. It is this
:12:28. > :12:30.anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in
:12:31. > :12:33.the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can
:12:34. > :12:37.be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a
:12:38. > :12:41.special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...
:12:42. > :12:45.This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of
:12:46. > :12:49.the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was
:12:50. > :12:53.interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild
:12:54. > :12:59.Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the
:13:00. > :13:04.baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,
:13:05. > :13:10.the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader
:13:11. > :13:16.of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic
:13:17. > :13:20.speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are
:13:21. > :13:23.cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!
:13:24. > :13:27.The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day
:13:28. > :13:33.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last
:13:34. > :13:38.Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy
:13:39. > :13:45.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.