:00:35. > :00:38.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:42. > :00:46.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:47. > :00:48.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:49. > :01:01.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:02. > :01:08.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:09. > :01:13.And in the Midlands: 18 days in the job.
:01:14. > :01:15.Labour expelled their Milit`nt Tendency three decades ago.
:01:16. > :01:20.Now they want Jeremy Corbyn to let them back in.
:01:21. > :01:27.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:28. > :01:36.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:37. > :01:39.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:40. > :01:43.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative
:01:44. > :01:45.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:46. > :01:49.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:50. > :01:54.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:55. > :01:57."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:01:58. > :01:59.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:00. > :02:08.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:09. > :02:15.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:16. > :02:25.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:26. > :02:31.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:32. > :02:34.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:35. > :02:37.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:38. > :02:41.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then
:02:42. > :02:48.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:49. > :02:52.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:53. > :02:56.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:57. > :03:02.when you talk about negativity the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:03. > :03:09.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:10. > :03:14.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:15. > :03:17.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:18. > :03:22.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:23. > :03:27.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:28. > :03:30.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:31. > :03:35.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:36. > :03:42.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:43. > :03:44.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:45. > :03:50.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:51. > :03:53.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:54. > :04:01.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:02. > :04:04.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:05. > :04:10.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:11. > :04:13.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:14. > :04:18.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:19. > :04:23.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:24. > :04:26.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:27. > :04:31.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:32. > :04:41.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:42. > :04:44.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:45. > :04:50.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:51. > :04:54.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:55. > :04:58.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:04:59. > :05:03.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:04. > :05:06.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:07. > :05:12.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:13. > :05:16.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:17. > :05:20.still want to trade with the EU and I think we can have a free trade
:05:21. > :05:27.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:28. > :05:31.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:32. > :05:36.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:37. > :05:39.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:40. > :05:44.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:45. > :05:52.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:53. > :05:58.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:05:59. > :06:00.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:01. > :06:07.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:08. > :06:15.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:16. > :06:20.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:21. > :06:24.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:25. > :06:28.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:29. > :06:32.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:33. > :06:38.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:39. > :06:53.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:54. > :06:57.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:06:58. > :07:01.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:02. > :07:04.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:05. > :07:09.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:10. > :07:17.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:18. > :07:21.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:22. > :07:25.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:26. > :07:30.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:31. > :07:35.our own tariffs once we've left we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:36. > :07:39.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:40. > :07:44.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:45. > :07:48.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:49. > :07:54.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:55. > :07:59.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:00. > :08:03.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:04. > :08:07.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:08. > :08:16.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a %
:08:17. > :08:20.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:21. > :08:26.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:27. > :08:32.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:33. > :08:36.Every bottle of Japanese whisky they will have to work out the rules
:08:37. > :08:42.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:43. > :08:47.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:48. > :08:48.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view
:08:49. > :08:57.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:08:58. > :09:02.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:03. > :09:07.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:08. > :09:13.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:14. > :09:18.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:19. > :09:22.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:23. > :09:25.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:26. > :09:31.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:32. > :09:37.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:38. > :09:40.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:41. > :09:44.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:45. > :09:49.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:50. > :09:56.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:57. > :09:59.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:00. > :10:05.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:06. > :10:08.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:09. > :10:14.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:15. > :10:18.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:19. > :10:22.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:23. > :10:28.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:29. > :10:32.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:33. > :10:36.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:37. > :10:43.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:44. > :10:46.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:47. > :10:53.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:54. > :11:03.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:04. > :11:08.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:09. > :11:12.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:13. > :11:24.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:25. > :11:31.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:32. > :11:36.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:37. > :11:41.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:42. > :11:45.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:46. > :11:53.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:54. > :11:55.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:56. > :11:55.also means quitting the
:11:56. > :11:58.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:11:59. > :12:00.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:01. > :12:02.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:03. > :12:04.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:05. > :12:07.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:08. > :12:16.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:17. > :12:20.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:21. > :12:24."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:25. > :12:26.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:27. > :12:28.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:29. > :12:40.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:41. > :12:42.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:43. > :12:46.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:47. > :12:48.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:49. > :12:51.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:52. > :12:57.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:12:58. > :13:03.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:04. > :13:05.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:06. > :13:10.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:11. > :13:16.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:17. > :13:18.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:19. > :13:32.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:33. > :13:35.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:36. > :13:43.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:44. > :13:48.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:49. > :13:51.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:52. > :13:56.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:13:57. > :14:00.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:01. > :14:06.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:07. > :14:08.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:09. > :14:12.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:13. > :14:18.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:19. > :14:21.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:22. > :14:26.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself
:14:27. > :14:30.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The
:14:31. > :14:34.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters
:14:35. > :14:39.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:40. > :14:43.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:44. > :14:48.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:49. > :14:53.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:54. > :14:57.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would
:14:58. > :15:01.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:02. > :15:05.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:06. > :15:11.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:12. > :15:16.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:17. > :15:19.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:20. > :15:23.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:24. > :15:27.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:28. > :15:30.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:31. > :15:37.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:38. > :15:43.accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full
:15:44. > :15:47.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:48. > :15:55.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:56. > :15:57.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:15:58. > :15:59.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:00. > :16:05.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:06. > :16:10.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:11. > :16:11.It's not the EU which is
:16:12. > :16:14.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:15. > :16:18.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:19. > :16:21.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:22. > :16:23.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:24. > :16:25.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:26. > :16:28.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:29. > :16:32.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:33. > :16:45.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:46. > :16:49.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:50. > :16:53.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:54. > :16:56.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:16:57. > :17:00.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:01. > :17:04.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:05. > :17:08.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:09. > :17:10.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:11. > :17:28.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:29. > :17:31.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:32. > :17:33.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:34. > :17:36.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:37. > :17:39.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:40. > :17:41.Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:42. > :17:43.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:44. > :17:46.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:47. > :17:47.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:48. > :17:50.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:51. > :17:52.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:53. > :17:56.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:17:57. > :18:00.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:01. > :18:03.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:04. > :18:05.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:06. > :18:09.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:10. > :18:12.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:13. > :18:24.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:25. > :18:26.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:27. > :18:30.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:31. > :18:34.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:35. > :18:37.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:38. > :18:41.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:42. > :18:46.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:47. > :18:52.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:53. > :18:57.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:18:58. > :19:00.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:01. > :19:02.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:03. > :19:05.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:06. > :19:12.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t
:19:13. > :19:13.run. There is absolutely
:19:14. > :19:15.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:16. > :19:16.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:17. > :19:21.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:22. > :19:30.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:31. > :19:33.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:34. > :19:35.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:36. > :19:45.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:46. > :19:50.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:51. > :20:00.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:01. > :20:04.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:05. > :20:07.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:08. > :20:11.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:12. > :20:15.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:16. > :20:18.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:19. > :20:22.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:23. > :20:26.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:27. > :20:30.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:31. > :20:33.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:34. > :20:37.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:38. > :20:41.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:42. > :20:46.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:47. > :20:50.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:51. > :20:53.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:54. > :20:56.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:20:57. > :21:00.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:01. > :21:04.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:05. > :21:08.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:09. > :21:12.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:13. > :21:15.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:16. > :21:18.membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you
:21:19. > :21:21.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:22. > :21:28.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:29. > :21:32.promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:33. > :21:35.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:36. > :21:39.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:40. > :21:44.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You
:21:45. > :21:46.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:47. > :21:49.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:50. > :21:53.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:54. > :21:57.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:21:58. > :22:00.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:01. > :22:04.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:05. > :22:08.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:09. > :22:11.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:12. > :22:12.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:13. > :22:14.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:15. > :22:17.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:18. > :22:20.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:21. > :22:22.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:23. > :22:25.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:26. > :22:41.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:42. > :22:51.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:52. > :22:59.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:00. > :23:01.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:02. > :23:03.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:04. > :23:17.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:18. > :23:20.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:21. > :23:23.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:24. > :23:25.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:26. > :23:27.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:28. > :23:31.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:32. > :23:35.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party
:23:36. > :23:41.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:42. > :23:44.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:45. > :23:49.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:50. > :23:56.over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:57. > :23:59.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:00. > :24:07.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:08. > :24:10.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:11. > :24:16.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:17. > :24:18.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:19. > :24:21.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:22. > :24:26.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:27. > :24:29.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:30. > :24:43.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:44. > :24:46.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:47. > :24:49.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:50. > :24:52.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:53. > :24:54.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:55. > :24:56.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:24:57. > :24:58.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:24:59. > :25:07.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:08. > :25:10.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:11. > :25:13.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:14. > :25:16.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:17. > :25:18.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:19. > :25:21.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:22. > :25:24.that is something that Our members are not
:25:25. > :25:29.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:30. > :25:32.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:33. > :25:34.the future What method would you use
:25:35. > :25:37.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:38. > :25:40.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:41. > :25:44.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:45. > :25:50.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:51. > :25:52.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:53. > :25:56.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:25:57. > :25:58.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:25:59. > :26:04.details. This is one vote that
:26:05. > :26:06.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:07. > :26:10.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:11. > :26:13.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:14. > :26:17.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:18. > :26:19.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:20. > :26:27.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:28. > :26:36.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:37. > :26:39.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:40. > :26:42.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:43. > :26:44.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:45. > :26:47.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:48. > :27:01.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:02. > :27:11.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:12. > :27:14.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:15. > :27:18.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:19. > :27:20.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:21. > :27:25.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:26. > :27:28.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:29. > :27:32.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:33. > :27:52.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:53. > :27:54.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:55. > :27:58.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:27:59. > :28:00.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:01. > :28:02.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:03. > :28:04.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:05. > :28:07.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:08. > :28:10.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:11. > :28:12.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:13. > :28:15.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:16. > :28:17.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:18. > :28:19.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:20. > :28:23.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:24. > :28:26.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:27. > :28:33.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:34. > :28:37.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:38. > :28:41.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:42. > :28:44.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:45. > :28:49.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:50. > :28:53.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:54. > :28:58.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:28:59. > :29:01.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:02. > :29:05.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:06. > :29:08.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:09. > :29:19.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:20. > :29:21.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:22. > :29:23.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:24. > :29:26.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:27. > :29:29.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I
:29:30. > :29:32.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:33. > :29:37.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:38. > :29:41.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:42. > :29:44.be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better
:29:45. > :29:48.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:49. > :29:52.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:53. > :29:56.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:29:57. > :29:59.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:00. > :30:06.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:07. > :30:10.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:11. > :30:14.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:15. > :30:19.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:20. > :30:23.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:24. > :30:28.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:29. > :30:31.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:32. > :30:34.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:35. > :30:40.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:41. > :30:44.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:45. > :30:48.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The
:30:49. > :30:52.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:53. > :30:57.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:30:58. > :31:02.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:03. > :31:06.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:07. > :31:09.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:10. > :31:15.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:16. > :31:18.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:19. > :31:22.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:23. > :31:24.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:25. > :31:34.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:35. > :31:40.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:41. > :31:47.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:48. > :31:51.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:52. > :31:57.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:31:58. > :32:03.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:04. > :32:07.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:08. > :32:11.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:12. > :32:19.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:20. > :32:22.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:23. > :32:30.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:31. > :32:33.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:34. > :32:39.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:40. > :32:43.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:44. > :32:47.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:48. > :32:50.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:51. > :32:54.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:55. > :32:57.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:32:58. > :33:05.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:06. > :33:10.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:11. > :33:13.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:14. > :33:18.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:19. > :33:24.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:25. > :33:31.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:32. > :33:34.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:35. > :33:37.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:38. > :33:44.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns
:33:45. > :33:52.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:53. > :33:56.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:57. > :34:01.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:02. > :34:06.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:07. > :34:10.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:11. > :34:14.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:15. > :34:18.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:19. > :34:22.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:23. > :34:27.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:28. > :34:33.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:34. > :34:37.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:38. > :34:41.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:42. > :34:43.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:44. > :34:50.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:51. > :34:54.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:55. > :34:58.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:34:59. > :35:08.fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our
:35:09. > :35:12.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:13. > :35:17.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:18. > :35:23.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:24. > :35:26.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:27. > :35:31.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:32. > :35:36.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:37. > :35:41.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:42. > :35:45.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:46. > :35:51.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:52. > :35:58.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:35:59. > :36:03.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:04. > :36:07.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:08. > :36:12.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:13. > :36:16.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:17. > :36:32.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:33. > :36:40.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:41. > :36:45.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:46. > :36:49.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:50. > :36:52.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:53. > :37:03.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:04. > :37:06.Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.
:37:07. > :37:11.Labour expelled its Militant Tendency 30 years ago,
:37:12. > :37:17.including the former Coventry MP Dave Nellist.
:37:18. > :37:20.Now he's one of five Midlanders among 75 socialists who want
:37:21. > :37:24.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Partx to have them back.
:37:25. > :37:30.I'll be asking the former L`bour transport minister David Jalieson,
:37:31. > :37:33.better known now as the West Midlands Police Commissioner,
:37:34. > :37:40.and Mike Wood, elected last year as the Conservative MP for the key
:37:41. > :37:47.Good to have you both with us here today.
:37:48. > :37:50.And we'll also be be finding out what the lower pound means,
:37:51. > :37:51.after that Brexit vote, for economic prospects
:37:52. > :37:55.here in our part of the country But we begin with the polithcal
:37:56. > :38:01.Despite the deafening sound of political and business ldaders
:38:02. > :38:04.eating their words about Donald Trump, from one
:38:05. > :38:06.Birmingham Labour MP and Shadow Minister comes no
:38:07. > :38:12.Jack Dromey said back in January Mr Trump should be
:38:13. > :38:16.banned from Britain, just as he wanted Muslims to be
:38:17. > :38:24.Mr Dromey's certainly not modifying his opinions.
:38:25. > :38:27.Donald Trump is a loathsome xenophobe, who divides.
:38:28. > :38:32.But he won because he spoke to those with a raft of discontents.
:38:33. > :38:39.And we ignore the voice of those who feel left behind at our peril.
:38:40. > :38:41.This is a crisis for liberal democracy - America,
:38:42. > :38:45.We're living through dangerous times.
:38:46. > :38:47.I think the key point that Jack Dromey is worrying abott..
:38:48. > :38:50.As you need no reminder, Mike, we live in a complex, diverse,
:38:51. > :38:55.multicultural community, and he feels that the rhetoric
:38:56. > :38:58.from Donald Trump both emboldens the English Defence League `nd also
:38:59. > :39:00.potentially incites support among those who may be tempted
:39:01. > :39:04.to side with the so-called Islamic State on the other side
:39:05. > :39:06.I'm not going to pretend that Trump would have
:39:07. > :39:09.been my choice of candidate but of course, he was chosen
:39:10. > :39:12.as the candidate by the Reptblican party, then elected by the @merican
:39:13. > :39:20.Now, of course, the special relationship between Britain
:39:21. > :39:24.and the United States is extremely strong and so I think all of us have
:39:25. > :39:29.to hope that as president, he governs rather more senshbly
:39:30. > :39:33.than some people fear and that, as president, he behaves rather more
:39:34. > :39:35.in tune with the way he's spoken since the election,
:39:36. > :39:38.which has been much more conciliatory, much more unifying,
:39:39. > :39:41.rather than some of the divhsive and incendiary comments he lade
:39:42. > :39:48.Just thinking about that colmunity cohesion aspect, that's
:39:49. > :39:49.something of course, that the police experiences
:39:50. > :39:55.And that's something that is very high on my agenda,
:39:56. > :39:58.keeping our communities togdther and keeping people working together.
:39:59. > :40:02.The rhetoric that we're seehng generally has had
:40:03. > :40:03.an influence, I would have thought?
:40:04. > :40:10.Just after Brexit, there was a peak in hate crime and I hope th`t
:40:11. > :40:18.But I think what's interesthng about this already is that
:40:19. > :40:23.Yes, he got elected on really quite extreme views on building a wall
:40:24. > :40:26.between Mexico and America, views about putting Clinton
:40:27. > :40:31.rid of it. Within days, the ink is hardly dry on the ballot papers
:40:32. > :40:36.and he's already seriously rolling back from many of those polhcies.
:40:37. > :40:43.That, of course, will have `n impact on the electorate in Americ`.
:40:44. > :40:47.For the moment, thank you very much both indeed.
:40:48. > :40:50.They clocked up over a thousand years of Labour membership
:40:51. > :40:52.between them, only to be kicked out of the party.
:40:53. > :40:58.The purge of Militant followed years of bitter in-fighting in thd early
:40:59. > :41:05.'80s between the hard left and the so-called moderates.
:41:06. > :41:08.Among those shown the door was the former Coventry MP Dave Nellist.
:41:09. > :41:10.Now he's one of 75 expelled socialists applying
:41:11. > :41:14.Our political reporter Kathryn Stranczyszyn explains why.
:41:15. > :41:22.A long ago war of ideology, bitterly fought.
:41:23. > :41:25.The Militant is standing candidates against the Labour Party.
:41:26. > :41:28.I think they have a bloody cheek, anyone who's in the Militant,
:41:29. > :41:31.to think they can demand thd right to remain in our party.
:41:32. > :41:35.The Labour Party in the 1970s and 1980s was a battle ground
:41:36. > :41:40.between the left and the hard left, the party within a party,
:41:41. > :41:52.Militant, whose members werd denounced by Labour MPs at the time.
:41:53. > :41:53.Not the Workers' Revolution`ry Party, nor the militant Trots.
:41:54. > :41:56.Madam Chairman, the baying of the beast betrays its prdsence.
:41:57. > :41:57.Eventually, it reached a pahnful crescendo,
:41:58. > :42:00.with hundreds of Militant members kicked out.
:42:01. > :42:04.Enthusiasm's almost a criminal offence now in the party.
:42:05. > :42:06.We're not allowed to use thd word "strikes" any more.
:42:07. > :42:12.I think this is one of the meetings up
:42:13. > :42:18.And if you look at who two of the attendees
:42:19. > :42:21.are on the platform, one T Benn, one J Corbyn.
:42:22. > :42:24.75 former Militant members have signed a letter saying that the time
:42:25. > :42:32.is right for Jeremy Corbyn to let them back in.
:42:33. > :42:35.I felt it was impossible inside that New Labour to carry
:42:36. > :42:39.on the fight for socialism, so we fought for it outside.
:42:40. > :42:45.Dave Nellist was a Coventry MP for nine years.
:42:46. > :42:48.He's a name synonymous with the most radical side of Labour.
:42:49. > :42:52.Jeremy's re-election a few weeks ago shows that there is the possibility
:42:53. > :42:59.He's outnumbered nine to ond in Parliament and on councils.
:43:00. > :43:03.There's a lot of manoeuvres to try to get rid of him
:43:04. > :43:06.and I want to be part of the battle to support his
:43:07. > :43:11.Of course, this all comes at a time when the party is once
:43:12. > :43:16.The membership wants Jeremy Corbyn, the Parliamentary
:43:17. > :43:26.And with criticism of the t`ctics of the left-wing group Momentum
:43:27. > :43:28.that supports Mr Corbyn, some people say the idea
:43:29. > :43:31.of admitting some of these people back in is nothing
:43:32. > :43:34.But Dave Nellist says, far from being the ruin of the party,
:43:35. > :43:38.when it comes to voters he could be one of its saviours.
:43:39. > :43:40.If we do nothing but wait for the 2020 election,
:43:41. > :43:43.three quarters of all council services in our
:43:44. > :43:45.Youth clubs, libraries, children's centres.
:43:46. > :43:47.Adult education centres, park wardens, street cleaners.
:43:48. > :43:56.Labour says where members h`ve previously been banned,
:43:57. > :43:59.the decision on re-entry is one for the National Executive Commhttee.
:44:00. > :44:02.Dave Nellist is now chair of the Trade Unionist And Socialist
:44:03. > :44:03.Coalition, and says, if he's allowed back in,
:44:04. > :44:10.the group won't field any c`ndidates at next year's local elections.
:44:11. > :44:13.We're hoping that the Labour NEC, which meets on the 22nd
:44:14. > :44:17.If they don't find the time to do it then, I think we'll take our
:44:18. > :44:25.campaign to the ranks of thd Labour and trade union movement,
:44:26. > :44:27.with a national petition to help the NEC
:44:28. > :44:35.A threat or a promise from Dave Nellist ending that report
:44:36. > :44:40.Well, instrumental in Labour's purge of Militant three decades ago
:44:41. > :44:42.was a tight-knit Midlands-dominated caucus of MPs and union leaders -
:44:43. > :44:48.among them, John Spellar, now MP for Warley.
:44:49. > :44:51.Down the line to Westminster, I asked him how he thought the party
:44:52. > :45:01.These people, let's be clear, are dedicated Trotskyists.
:45:02. > :45:03.They have their own tightly knit revolutionary organisation.
:45:04. > :45:06.They only want to use the Labour Party, use its ftnds
:45:07. > :45:08.and try and divert young people into their cause.
:45:09. > :45:21.We'd be mad to let them back into the Labour Party.
:45:22. > :45:25.But isn't the reality that they in a way, are more in tune
:45:26. > :45:28.with the Labour Party as it is now, with these half a million
:45:29. > :45:32.They see you, really, as just a post-Blairite Parliamentary rump.
:45:33. > :45:35.Oh, this is complete rubbish and we know that from
:45:36. > :45:37.the Labour Parties right thd way across the Midlands.
:45:38. > :45:38.And they've seen these people before.
:45:39. > :45:41.They saw all the trouble that they caused in Coventrx.
:45:42. > :45:44.We became unelectable in thd 19 0s precisely because people wotld not
:45:45. > :45:46.allow a party that had people like that in it
:45:47. > :45:55.And even more recently, they have been running...
:45:56. > :45:58.They set up their own party, they've been running candid`tes
:45:59. > :46:06.against the Labour Party across the country.
:46:07. > :46:07.Even as late as this year's elections.
:46:08. > :46:11.So why would we want to be letting in people who are clearly hostile
:46:12. > :46:13.to the fundamental democrathc aims of the Labour Party?
:46:14. > :46:23.They've got their own revolutionary party.
:46:24. > :46:26.They can run in elections, they can get the derisory votes they want.
:46:27. > :46:28.They just want to use the L`bour Party.
:46:29. > :46:30.We will never be able to rebuild and provide a credible alternative
:46:31. > :46:33.to the Conservatives if we `llow these sort of people
:46:34. > :46:36.You clearly think that thesd applicants should be given short
:46:37. > :46:39.shrift but do you think Jeremy Corbyn will think thd same?
:46:40. > :46:41.Well, I think, actually, it's the national executive
:46:42. > :46:44.of the Labour Party and these issues about allowing revolutionarx groups
:46:45. > :46:57.in come up time and again in Labour's history.
:46:58. > :47:01.The Communist Party tried to infiltrate us,
:47:02. > :47:05.League, the international socialists, the Militant
:47:06. > :47:07.and now this new lot from the Socialist party.
:47:08. > :47:13.They don't want to help the Labour Party win with ordinary
:47:14. > :47:15.voters and every time we look as though we're getting close
:47:16. > :47:18.to them, that takes us further from power and further from doing
:47:19. > :47:21.the right thing for ordinarx voters in the Midlands and right
:47:22. > :47:25.John Spellar clearly thinks Dave Nellist and company should be
:47:26. > :47:28.left out of the Labour Partx, exactly where they are now.
:47:29. > :47:32.But the big difference, of course, is that then they were hard left
:47:33. > :47:34.insurrection whereas now, Jeremy Corbyn is in
:47:35. > :47:38.Well, these people, back in the 1980s, made
:47:39. > :47:49.And we were, and Margaret Thatcher reigned supreme.
:47:50. > :47:53.They then formed their own parties and they've stood in elections,
:47:54. > :47:55.both to local councils and in Parliament,
:47:56. > :47:58.So these people have lost the Labour Party elections,
:47:59. > :48:00.they've lost elections standing on their own platform.
:48:01. > :48:06.But the reality is, though, isn't it, that there
:48:07. > :48:09.between Jeremy Corbyn and Dave Nellist?
:48:10. > :48:13.There is a big role now for an anti-austerity socialist
:48:14. > :48:16.Labour Party to organise and help those people who feel that they re
:48:17. > :48:18.being left behind by the austerity agenda.
:48:19. > :48:22.I think, yes, the Labour Party needs to pick up that strong feelhng
:48:23. > :48:25.of dissent there is amongst people in the country and against this
:48:26. > :48:29.Conservative government and the things that are happening
:48:30. > :48:32.in terms of making people homeless and the difficulties we're having
:48:33. > :48:38.Yes, they want them addressdd, but believe me...
:48:39. > :48:41.Isn't socialism a more authdntic answer to all those things?
:48:42. > :48:44.But we're not going to find those answers with those people
:48:45. > :48:47.in the past and the present who failed to get the votes
:48:48. > :48:51.I know there is a certain alount of glee on the Tory side
:48:52. > :48:53.about these divisions within the Labour Party
:48:54. > :48:55.but Dominic Raab, one of your former ministers,
:48:56. > :48:57.during the Tory conference in Birmingham, said
:48:58. > :48:59.anybody on your side who underestimates Jeremy Corbyn
:49:00. > :49:03.does so at their peril, because he could tap into this
:49:04. > :49:05.sentiment at street level that we see all around us
:49:06. > :49:08.in the various elections th`t we've been talking about.
:49:09. > :49:16.Of course, there's a real d`nger in Jeremy Corbyn but I think just
:49:17. > :49:18.the fact that people like Dave Nellist, Peter Ta`ffe
:49:19. > :49:21.Derek Hatton, feel that the Labour Party is once again their home just
:49:22. > :49:24.underlines how far Jeremy Corbyn has taken the Labour Party away
:49:25. > :49:26.from the mainstream, where most of the public ard.
:49:27. > :49:31.But I saw a Momentum event in Birmingham where there
:49:32. > :49:34.were people who were teachers, there were people who had even been
:49:35. > :49:36.supporters of Margaret Thatcher in her time.
:49:37. > :49:41.And Labour is actually a mass movement as well as a polithcal
:49:42. > :49:47.Well, of course, my predecessor but one as MP in Dudley South,
:49:48. > :49:54.He was a militant in the early 980s himself, before he disowned Militant
:49:55. > :49:58.and moved into the mainstre`m of the Labour Party.
:49:59. > :50:01.Do the socialists have a case against moderates like you that
:50:02. > :50:04.you are undermining Jeremy Corbyn's leadership at every turn?
:50:05. > :50:07.Well, I'm not certainly unddrmining the leadership of the party.
:50:08. > :50:10.I've been in the party 53 ydars now and I've supported every single
:50:11. > :50:18.I think my concern is firstly that people who couldn't get elected
:50:19. > :50:21.are trying to get elected and they've failed themselvds but,
:50:22. > :50:24.also, if you look this year, I was only elected this year in May
:50:25. > :50:35.We must leave it there for the moment.
:50:36. > :50:38.Well, as the Chancellor puts the finishing touches
:50:39. > :50:41.to Wednesday's Autumn Statelent how is the economy shaping tp
:50:42. > :50:54.Well, our exporters and importers will differ on that one, of course.
:50:55. > :51:08.But for West Bromwich-based East End Foods,
:51:09. > :51:23.The weakness of the post-Brdxit pound has hit business here hard.
:51:24. > :51:26.The company imports foodstuffs and they estimate costs havd gone up
:51:27. > :51:28.by ?50,000 a week since the Leave vote.
:51:29. > :51:42.I think the toughest six months we have seen.
:51:43. > :51:46.East End Foods has been in business for nearly 50 years and this has
:51:47. > :51:51.At Ellenborough Park Hotel near Cheltenham, bookings are up.
:51:52. > :51:56.We've seen an influx of overseas guests, particularly US,
:51:57. > :52:00.because they can just see that, of the options available to them,
:52:01. > :52:03.the UK is really attractive, when their dollars go a lot further.
:52:04. > :52:09.The jobless total fell by 22,00 between July and September
:52:10. > :52:23.The pound may be sinking but, despite referendum warnings,
:52:24. > :52:35.And thinking first, Mike, about importers like East End Foods,
:52:36. > :52:38.they're trying not to pass on the extra costs that thex incur
:52:39. > :52:45.through the extra pound but it does raise questions.
:52:46. > :52:49.They are having to take a spueeze in order to do that,
:52:50. > :52:52.and it makes Theresa May's vision of a successful Brexit look
:52:53. > :52:56.No, I don't think that's true at all.
:52:57. > :52:58.Clearly, things are difficult for importers at the moment.
:52:59. > :53:00.I do think that the pound will return more towards trdnd
:53:01. > :53:02.levels because the underlying fundamentals of the
:53:03. > :53:08.We've seen in the report that the Black Country Chamber
:53:09. > :53:13.published this week, there was huge optimism amongst
:53:14. > :53:16.They're investing more, they're exporting more.
:53:17. > :53:19.The level of the pound is actually leading to really good condhtions
:53:20. > :53:23.for exporters, particularly in manufacturing.
:53:24. > :53:29.And the fall in unemployment and the increased, to record levels,
:53:30. > :53:34.But, within that, the bulk of the new jobs are going to people
:53:35. > :53:36.who weren't born in this cotntry and a large component
:53:37. > :53:39.When is your government going to actually
:53:40. > :53:47.face up to the benign effects of EU migration?
:53:48. > :53:50.Well, of course, Theresa Max has been clear that we want to trigger
:53:51. > :53:53.Article 50 in the spring to make a start on the process of ldaving
:53:54. > :53:56.the European Union and impldmenting the decision that voters took
:53:57. > :53:59.in June and, as part of that, we will need the transition`l
:54:00. > :54:01.measures that mean that where people are already in the country
:54:02. > :54:04.and working, that we have agreements with our European partners that
:54:05. > :54:07.obviously, we expect people to be able to say here but we also expect
:54:08. > :54:08.British nationals living and working overseas
:54:09. > :54:11.to be able to remain, so I think that's
:54:12. > :54:21.But when we were told beford the referendum that there
:54:22. > :54:28.would be economic apocalypsd if people voted to leave,
:54:29. > :54:30.of course GDP was supposed to be negative, unemployment
:54:31. > :54:37.Instead, we've got really strong GDP growth, we got unemployment falling.
:54:38. > :54:39.Mike's just mentioned the Black Country Chamber.
:54:40. > :54:43.The West Midlands economic Forum talks about very optimistic growth
:54:44. > :54:50.So the Government seems to be getting something right
:54:51. > :54:54.I think the problem here is, we don't know a lot of the `nswers
:54:55. > :54:56.and some of Mike's responses to your questions, he clearly
:54:57. > :55:00.Now, we've got a temporary situation where the pound is falling.
:55:01. > :55:05.Unemployment halved in five years in Birmingham.
:55:06. > :55:09.The cost of food going up, the cost of fuel going up.
:55:10. > :55:17.But then, when we find oursdlves outside of the European Union,
:55:18. > :55:22.we will then have to have 27 different trade deals with different
:55:23. > :55:28.countries and there may be tariffs but against our exporters now,
:55:29. > :55:31.so Brexit hasn't happened ydt, so we can't actually say
:55:32. > :55:43.what the effect of it is going to be.
:55:44. > :55:45.-- tariffs put against some of our exporters.
:55:46. > :55:48.We can only see some of the effects of it going to happen.
:55:49. > :55:51.I think in two years' time, if we get a hard Brexit,
:55:52. > :55:55.which is where we seem to bd heading, then this could have a huge
:55:56. > :55:58.impact on exporters and we could see more expensive food and the basic
:55:59. > :56:02.And yet surveys suggest that most voters actually want the kind
:56:03. > :56:04.of immigration policies that only a hard Brexit
:56:05. > :56:08.People voted to take back control in June and I think that's
:56:09. > :56:11.Now, I'm afraid I don't think David quite understands how
:56:12. > :56:14.the European Union works when he says we'd need 27
:56:15. > :56:18.We'd have one trade deal with the remainder
:56:19. > :56:20.Just as we don't have separate trade deals
:56:21. > :56:23.with all of the countries at the moment, we wouldn't
:56:24. > :56:26.We'd have one with the European Union.
:56:27. > :56:31.We could go on but, frankly, at this stage we can't.
:56:32. > :56:33.For the moment, thank you both very much indeed.
:56:34. > :56:35.So, what other political developments have been making
:56:36. > :56:39.Our round-up in 60 seconds is brought to us today
:56:40. > :56:43.in Worcestershire joined a nationwide protest over claims
:56:44. > :56:48.there's been a surge in violence among inmates.
:56:49. > :56:51.Dudley Council has joined forces with the Environment Agency
:56:52. > :56:54.after a huge rubbish heap appeared near the town centre.
:56:55. > :56:57.It's just a few miles away from the site of another motntain
:56:58. > :57:01.of waste, which took years to clear, in Brierley Hill.
:57:02. > :57:04.Nuneaton-born left-wing fill director Ken Loach marked 50 years
:57:05. > :57:08.since Cathy Come Home with an appearance on Midlands Today
:57:09. > :57:14.So does he think homelessness is less of a problem now?
:57:15. > :57:17.I think everyone agrees thex're worse, because the markets have been
:57:18. > :57:20.To build houses and to solve the problem.
:57:21. > :57:26.Once lauded by David Cameron and Michael Gove,
:57:27. > :57:28.Birmingham's Perry Beeches @cademy Trust in Birmingham has had another
:57:29. > :57:33.one of its schools rated as inadequate by inpectors.
:57:34. > :57:36.And West Midlands Police will begin a recruitment drive this wedk.
:57:37. > :57:44.They are looking to take on an extra 800 new officers.
:57:45. > :57:49.Yes, and that is part and p`rcel of David Jamieson's policing plan,
:57:50. > :57:51.due out on Wednesday, and comes off the back of a survey
:57:52. > :57:54.by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary.
:57:55. > :57:58.Over a third of 26,000 people across England hadn't seen ` bobby
:57:59. > :58:06.Is that what this is really all about?
:58:07. > :58:09.Because, actually, there ard plenty of demand at the moment,
:58:10. > :58:12.given the prevalence of cybdr crime, phishing e-mails and all thd rest
:58:13. > :58:15.of it, for more bobbies on the internet, not the be`ch.
:58:16. > :58:19.Well, firstly, the plan is about setting out the strategic
:58:20. > :58:23.things that people want in the area, and those are the things I promised
:58:24. > :58:26.in my manifesto in May and now I'm putting them into the plan.
:58:27. > :58:28.And that's for the Chief Constable now to undertake.
:58:29. > :58:31.We are facing, firstly, huge cuts in our budget.
:58:32. > :58:33.We've lost a quarter of our budget under Mike's government
:58:34. > :58:39.What I'm saying is, we do nded to get the bobbies on the bdat.
:58:40. > :58:42.We're undertaking a big recruitment campaign.
:58:43. > :58:45.But also you quite rightly point out some of the crimes that we're
:58:46. > :58:48.dealing with are entirely dhfferent and need a different
:58:49. > :58:53.approach to policing than we had in the past.
:58:54. > :58:55.Briefly, David, actually, is quite entitled to give
:58:56. > :59:01.Because it turns out his is, as he says, one of the two
:59:02. > :59:04.least expensive Police and Crime Commissioner
:59:05. > :59:06.offices in the country, whereas Conservative Warwickshire,
:59:07. > :59:08.West Mercia, Staffordshire `re among the most expensive offices
:59:09. > :59:13.As David knows, I'm a big stpporter of West Midlands Police.
:59:14. > :59:15.My dad was an West Midlands Policeman for nearly
:59:16. > :59:20.had the meetings with ministers in the Treasury and the Homd Office
:59:21. > :59:22.and elsewhere to argue the case for the West Midlands to get
:59:23. > :59:27.Hopefully, when we can get that new funding formula, it will help.
:59:28. > :59:32.My thanks to Commissioner D`vid Jamieson and Mike Wood.
:59:33. > :59:35.And there's more on the futtre of the police service
:59:36. > :59:39.West Mercia's new Chief Constable Anthony Banham has been described
:59:40. > :59:45.We're about to find out what exactly that means if, indeed,
:59:46. > :59:49.He'll be in BBC Radio Shropshire's hot seat during Jim Hawkins'
:59:50. > :59:50.programme from ten o'clock on Tuesday.
:59:51. > :59:55.This, though, is where we all rejoin Andrew Neil.
:59:56. > :59:58.in four years. It is subject we should spend more time on. Back to
:59:59. > :00:07.you. What will the Chancellor have to say
:00:08. > :00:12.in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say
:00:13. > :00:14.Brexit will have on the economy And who will face the Front
:00:15. > :00:17.National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor
:00:18. > :00:32.and the Chancellor have both been touring the television
:00:33. > :00:33.studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this
:00:34. > :00:40.is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the
:00:41. > :00:43.pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered
:00:44. > :00:46.to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat
:00:47. > :00:49.of what I'm not going to reveal
:00:50. > :00:52.what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited
:00:53. > :00:57.capacity, as one might imagine from listening
:00:58. > :01:00.to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more
:01:01. > :01:05.for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't
:01:06. > :01:08.exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won
:01:09. > :01:11.credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain
:01:12. > :01:27.an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,
:01:28. > :01:30.but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another
:01:31. > :01:42.?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of
:01:43. > :01:45.our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,
:01:46. > :01:54.is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the
:01:55. > :01:57.details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement
:01:58. > :02:01.that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the
:02:02. > :02:06.OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit
:02:07. > :02:16.to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is
:02:17. > :02:23.on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget
:02:24. > :02:28.Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is
:02:29. > :02:30.an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and
:02:31. > :02:35.we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a
:02:36. > :02:45.terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be
:02:46. > :02:48.screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the
:02:49. > :02:52.economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it
:02:53. > :03:01.is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people
:03:02. > :03:07.will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow
:03:08. > :03:10.strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down
:03:11. > :03:15.and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will
:03:16. > :03:18.slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the
:03:19. > :03:24.more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from
:03:25. > :03:28.2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even
:03:29. > :03:33.without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is
:03:34. > :03:38.right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have
:03:39. > :03:40.been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has
:03:41. > :03:50.negative and gloomy predictions there will be howls of agony, and
:03:51. > :03:53.rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the
:03:54. > :03:57.dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and
:03:58. > :04:04.now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling
:04:05. > :04:10.prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every
:04:11. > :04:14.little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal
:04:15. > :04:23.stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it
:04:24. > :04:30.will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford
:04:31. > :04:38.and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how
:04:39. > :04:41.to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to
:04:42. > :04:45.Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it
:04:46. > :04:56.goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel
:04:57. > :05:01.duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are
:05:02. > :05:04.potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything
:05:05. > :05:08.you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit
:05:09. > :05:14.freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded
:05:15. > :05:22.ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not the
:05:23. > :05:25.cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because
:05:26. > :05:32.they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require
:05:33. > :05:36.welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits as
:05:37. > :05:40.it stands, are frozen until 202 , and yet inflation is now starting to
:05:41. > :05:46.rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is
:05:47. > :05:55.worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax
:05:56. > :06:00.credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will
:06:01. > :06:05.get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has
:06:06. > :06:12.any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic
:06:13. > :06:17.jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not
:06:18. > :06:23.calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.
:06:24. > :06:32.What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that
:06:33. > :06:36.Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow
:06:37. > :06:39.cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The
:06:40. > :06:44.days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an
:06:45. > :06:48.end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had
:06:49. > :06:51.six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are
:06:52. > :06:55.important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and
:06:56. > :07:02.the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne s
:07:03. > :07:05.borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than
:07:06. > :07:13.George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing
:07:14. > :07:14.will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going
:07:15. > :07:21.to happen? It could be Italy, or the French
:07:22. > :07:28.elections coming up next spring Now, who will face the Front
:07:29. > :07:30.National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential
:07:31. > :07:31.elections? Well, France's centre-right
:07:32. > :07:33.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:34. > :07:35.in the first round of Well, France's centre-right
:07:36. > :07:38.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:39. > :07:41.in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent
:07:42. > :07:54.in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main
:07:55. > :08:00.candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,
:08:01. > :08:04.the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.
:08:05. > :08:15.Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look
:08:16. > :08:22.as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through
:08:23. > :08:26.and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like
:08:27. > :08:30.the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and
:08:31. > :08:39.there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking
:08:40. > :08:42.for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the
:08:43. > :08:48.right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is
:08:49. > :08:53.the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what
:08:54. > :08:57.it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite
:08:58. > :09:02.staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday
:09:03. > :09:07.and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up
:09:08. > :09:10.strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through
:09:11. > :09:16.which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the
:09:17. > :09:20.becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.
:09:21. > :09:28.His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I
:09:29. > :09:31.would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins
:09:32. > :09:35.this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next
:09:36. > :09:39.president, and who the next president is will be very important
:09:40. > :09:43.for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really
:09:44. > :09:49.happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in
:09:50. > :09:53.October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important
:09:54. > :10:00.thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will
:10:01. > :10:09.almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect
:10:10. > :10:16.much. Francois Hollande is done There is too much of a cliff to
:10:17. > :10:21.climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop
:10:22. > :10:26.Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have
:10:27. > :10:33.Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it is the battle of the right. In some
:10:34. > :10:40.areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he
:10:41. > :10:43.has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she
:10:44. > :10:47.could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French
:10:48. > :10:51.analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it
:10:52. > :10:56.this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over
:10:57. > :10:59.the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for
:11:00. > :11:05.her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.
:11:06. > :11:10.Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican
:11:11. > :11:17.nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that
:11:18. > :11:21.would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and
:11:22. > :11:29.those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for
:11:30. > :11:33.Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in
:11:34. > :11:45.America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out You
:11:46. > :11:48.got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are
:11:49. > :11:55.foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes
:11:56. > :12:01.forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,
:12:02. > :12:13.but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is
:12:14. > :12:24.the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.
:12:25. > :12:29.Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to
:12:30. > :12:32.re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment
:12:33. > :12:37.candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National
:12:38. > :12:39.front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on
:12:40. > :12:48.the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe
:12:49. > :12:52.used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of
:12:53. > :13:00.claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear
:13:01. > :13:08.against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote
:13:09. > :13:09.for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this
:13:10. > :13:12.time. The Daily Politics is back at noon
:13:13. > :13:16.tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full
:13:17. > :13:22.coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:23. > :13:31.it's the Sunday Politics.