:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:44. > :00:46.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:47. > :00:50.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:51. > :00:53.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:54. > :00:56.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:57. > :01:08.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:09. > :01:11.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:12. > :01:14.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:15. > :01:16.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:17. > :01:18.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:19. > :01:30.Talk about a growth industry. and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:31. > :01:32.The House of Lords is now over 800-strong.
:01:33. > :01:47.But only one in 20 have genuine links with our part of the country.
:01:48. > :01:51.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:52. > :01:53.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:54. > :01:55.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:56. > :01:57.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:01:58. > :01:59.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:00. > :02:06.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:07. > :02:12.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:13. > :02:18.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:19. > :02:21.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:22. > :02:24.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:25. > :02:29.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:30. > :02:33.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:34. > :02:36.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:37. > :02:42.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:43. > :02:49.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:50. > :02:55.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:56. > :03:05.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:06. > :03:09.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:10. > :03:11.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:12. > :03:21.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:22. > :03:27.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:28. > :03:32.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:33. > :03:34.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:35. > :03:37."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:38. > :03:51.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:52. > :03:56.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:57. > :04:00.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:01. > :04:03.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:04. > :04:19.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:20. > :04:22.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:23. > :04:26.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:27. > :04:30.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:31. > :04:32.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:33. > :04:38.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:39. > :04:42.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:43. > :04:45.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:46. > :04:53.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:54. > :04:58.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:04:59. > :05:05.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:06. > :05:13.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:14. > :05:17.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:18. > :05:23.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:24. > :05:29.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:30. > :05:34.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:35. > :05:38.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:39. > :05:44.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:45. > :05:50.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:51. > :05:54.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:55. > :05:59.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:06:00. > :06:03.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:04. > :06:07.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:08. > :06:11.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:12. > :06:15.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:16. > :06:20.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:21. > :06:24.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:25. > :06:27.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:28. > :06:33.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:34. > :06:39.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:40. > :06:44.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:45. > :06:48.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:49. > :06:54.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:55. > :06:59.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:07:00. > :07:04.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:05. > :07:08.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:09. > :07:12.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:13. > :07:16.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:17. > :07:21.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:22. > :07:27.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:28. > :07:31.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:32. > :07:35.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:36. > :07:41.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:42. > :07:45.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:46. > :07:48.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:49. > :07:56.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:57. > :07:59.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:00. > :08:05.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:06. > :08:10.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:11. > :08:17.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:18. > :08:21.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:22. > :08:24.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:25. > :08:30.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:31. > :08:34.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:35. > :08:39.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:40. > :08:44.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:45. > :08:46.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:47. > :08:48.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:49. > :08:51.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:52. > :08:54.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:55. > :08:56.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:57. > :08:57.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:08:58. > :09:00.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:01. > :09:09.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:10. > :09:12.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:13. > :09:15.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:16. > :09:16.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:17. > :09:18.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:19. > :09:24.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:25. > :09:33.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:34. > :09:35.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:36. > :09:39.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:40. > :09:44.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:45. > :09:49.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:50. > :09:52.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:53. > :09:54.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:55. > :09:57.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:09:58. > :10:01.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:02. > :10:09.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:10. > :10:12.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:13. > :10:15.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:16. > :10:18.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:19. > :10:20.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:21. > :10:22.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:23. > :10:26.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:27. > :10:28.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:29. > :10:31.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:32. > :10:34.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:35. > :10:41.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:42. > :10:44.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:45. > :10:47.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:48. > :10:50.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:51. > :10:56.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:57. > :10:58.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:10:59. > :11:01.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:02. > :11:06.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:07. > :11:09.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:10. > :11:11.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:12. > :11:14.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:15. > :11:16.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:17. > :11:20.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:21. > :11:22.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:23. > :11:30.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:31. > :11:33.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:34. > :11:36.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:37. > :11:38.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:39. > :11:40.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:41. > :11:46.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:47. > :11:49.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:50. > :11:52.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:53. > :11:54.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:55. > :11:56.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:57. > :12:12.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:13. > :12:15.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:16. > :12:17.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:18. > :12:22.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:23. > :12:24.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:25. > :12:32.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:33. > :12:38.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:39. > :12:41.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:42. > :12:44.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:45. > :12:47.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:48. > :12:52.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:53. > :12:58.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:12:59. > :13:01.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:02. > :13:08.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:09. > :13:14.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:15. > :13:19.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:20. > :13:22.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:23. > :13:25.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:26. > :13:31.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:32. > :13:37.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:38. > :13:39.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:40. > :13:43.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:44. > :13:49.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:50. > :13:54.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:55. > :13:58.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:13:59. > :14:02.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:03. > :14:05.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:06. > :14:08.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:09. > :14:13.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:14. > :14:18.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:19. > :14:21.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:22. > :14:26.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:27. > :14:29.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:30. > :14:35.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:36. > :14:39.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:40. > :14:44.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:45. > :14:48.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:49. > :14:55.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:56. > :15:00.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:01. > :15:07.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:08. > :15:11.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:12. > :15:13.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:14. > :15:18.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:19. > :15:29.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:30. > :15:37.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:38. > :15:42.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:43. > :15:46.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:47. > :15:50.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:51. > :15:55.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:56. > :15:59.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:00. > :16:03.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:04. > :16:07.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:08. > :16:14.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:15. > :16:18.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:19. > :16:28.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:29. > :16:34.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:35. > :16:38.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:39. > :16:41.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:42. > :16:47.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:48. > :16:52.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:53. > :16:56.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:57. > :16:59.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:17:00. > :17:04.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:05. > :17:10.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:11. > :17:15.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:16. > :17:19.have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:20. > :17:25.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:26. > :17:29.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:30. > :17:32.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:33. > :17:37.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:38. > :17:43.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:44. > :17:51.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:52. > :17:58.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:17:59. > :18:04.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:05. > :18:10.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:11. > :18:17.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:18. > :18:21.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:22. > :18:28.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:29. > :18:32.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:33. > :18:36.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:37. > :18:44.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:45. > :18:48.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:49. > :18:52.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:53. > :18:57.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:18:58. > :19:01.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:02. > :19:09.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:10. > :19:12.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:13. > :19:20.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:21. > :19:26.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:27. > :19:32.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:33. > :19:36.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:37. > :19:42.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:43. > :19:48.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:49. > :19:57.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:19:58. > :20:01.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:02. > :20:05.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:06. > :20:09.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:10. > :20:13.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:14. > :20:21.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:22. > :20:25.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:26. > :20:29.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:30. > :20:37.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:38. > :20:43.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:44. > :20:47.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:48. > :20:50.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:51. > :20:57.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:20:58. > :21:04.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:05. > :21:08.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:09. > :21:12.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:13. > :21:18.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:19. > :21:23.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:24. > :21:26.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:27. > :21:31.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:32. > :21:37.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:38. > :21:49.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:50. > :21:55.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:56. > :22:02.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:03. > :22:05.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:06. > :22:13.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:14. > :22:21.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:22. > :22:26.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:27. > :22:31.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:32. > :22:35.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:36. > :22:37.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:38. > :22:41.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:42. > :22:43.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:44. > :22:45.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:46. > :22:48.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:49. > :22:51.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:52. > :22:54.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:55. > :22:55.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:56. > :23:04.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:05. > :23:06.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:07. > :23:11.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:12. > :23:13.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:14. > :23:17.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:18. > :23:19.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:20. > :23:23.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:24. > :23:29.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:30. > :23:33.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:34. > :23:45.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:46. > :23:49.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:50. > :23:57.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:23:58. > :24:00.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:01. > :24:03.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:04. > :24:06.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:07. > :24:09.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:10. > :24:13.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:14. > :24:14.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:15. > :24:17.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:18. > :24:24.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:25. > :24:26.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:27. > :24:28.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:29. > :24:35.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:36. > :24:39.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:40. > :24:41.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:42. > :24:52.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:53. > :24:57.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:24:58. > :25:00.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:01. > :25:04.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:05. > :25:09.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:10. > :25:13.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:14. > :25:15.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:16. > :25:16.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:17. > :25:25.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:26. > :25:30.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:31. > :25:36.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:37. > :25:45.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:46. > :25:51.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:52. > :25:56.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:25:57. > :26:01.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:02. > :26:10.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:11. > :26:13.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:14. > :26:19.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:20. > :26:24.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:25. > :26:28.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:29. > :26:32.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:33. > :26:37.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:38. > :26:40.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:41. > :26:46.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:47. > :26:53.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:54. > :26:58.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:26:59. > :27:04.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:05. > :27:09.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:10. > :27:14.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:15. > :27:18.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:19. > :27:23.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:24. > :27:28.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:29. > :27:33.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:34. > :27:40.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:41. > :27:42.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:43. > :27:47.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:48. > :27:53.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:54. > :27:57.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:27:58. > :28:03.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:04. > :28:08.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:09. > :28:12.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:13. > :28:17.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:18. > :28:23.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:24. > :28:28.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:29. > :28:31.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:32. > :28:39.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:40. > :28:41.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:42. > :28:48.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:49. > :28:52.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:53. > :28:56.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:57. > :29:00.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:01. > :29:06.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:07. > :29:11.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:12. > :29:15.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:16. > :29:18.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:19. > :29:24.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:25. > :29:30.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:31. > :29:37.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:38. > :29:41.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:42. > :29:46.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:47. > :29:53.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:54. > :29:55.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:56. > :30:06.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:07. > :30:10.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:11. > :30:16.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:17. > :30:21.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:22. > :30:25.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:26. > :30:29.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:30. > :30:34.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:35. > :30:39.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:40. > :30:43.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:44. > :30:49.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:50. > :30:54.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:55. > :30:58.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:30:59. > :31:05.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:06. > :31:11.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:12. > :31:21.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:22. > :31:26.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:27. > :31:32.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:33. > :31:35.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:36. > :31:38.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:39. > :31:42.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:43. > :31:47.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:48. > :31:50.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:51. > :31:56.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:31:57. > :32:01.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:02. > :32:06.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:07. > :32:11.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:12. > :32:18.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:19. > :32:22.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:23. > :32:29.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:30. > :32:32.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:33. > :32:38.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:39. > :32:42.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:43. > :32:47.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:48. > :32:53.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:54. > :33:01.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:02. > :33:05.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:06. > :33:12.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:13. > :33:16.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:17. > :33:20.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:21. > :33:24.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:25. > :33:26.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:27. > :33:30.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:31. > :33:35.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:36. > :33:40.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:41. > :33:45.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:46. > :33:53.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:54. > :34:00.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:01. > :34:06.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:07. > :34:10.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:11. > :34:15.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:16. > :34:22.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:23. > :34:26.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:27. > :34:31.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:32. > :34:35.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:36. > :34:40.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:41. > :34:43.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:44. > :34:49.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:50. > :34:54.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:55. > :34:57.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:34:58. > :35:00.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:01. > :35:06.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:07. > :35:10.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:11. > :35:17.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:18. > :35:20.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:21. > :35:27.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:28. > :35:32.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:33. > :35:37.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:38. > :35:43.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:44. > :35:48.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:49. > :35:52.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:53. > :35:56.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:57. > :35:58.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:35:59. > :36:04.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:05. > :36:07.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:08. > :36:11.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:12. > :36:17.intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now
:36:18. > :36:21.in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be
:36:22. > :36:25.able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are
:36:26. > :36:29.heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:30. > :36:33.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:34. > :36:36.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:37. > :36:42.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:43. > :36:46.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:47. > :36:48.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:49. > :36:53.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:54. > :36:58.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:36:59. > :37:00.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:01. > :37:02.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:03. > :37:06.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking
:37:07. > :37:08.about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying
:37:09. > :37:10.off message, again, and the protestors attempting
:37:11. > :37:21.Hello again. Politics where you are.
:37:22. > :37:24.Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.
:37:25. > :37:29.This one's getting bigger all the time.
:37:30. > :37:31.The House of Lords is now over 800-strong.
:37:32. > :37:35.But only one in 20 have genuine links with our part of the country.
:37:36. > :37:39.What price democracy if we don't punch our weight in the Upper House?
:37:40. > :37:46.We have managed to find one local life peer who'll be joining us
:37:47. > :37:52.Along with: Margot James, the Business Minister
:37:53. > :37:57.And Rob Flello, the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent South.
:37:58. > :37:59.He was the Parliamentary Private Secretary to Charlie Falconer
:38:00. > :38:01.when he was Lord Chancellor in the Labour Government.
:38:02. > :38:05.And we'll also be talking about increasing security concerns
:38:06. > :38:13.But we begin with one courtroom drama where the storyline concerns
:38:14. > :38:18."Brexit means Business", for our learned friends,
:38:19. > :38:25.Not the least of them, the Attorney-General
:38:26. > :38:27.and Warwickshire MP, Jeremy Wright.
:38:28. > :38:32.As the Cabinet's Principal Legal Adviser, he's at the sharp end
:38:33. > :38:34.of the Government's argument that they, rather than Parliament,
:38:35. > :38:37.have the power to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty,
:38:38. > :38:39.setting Britain on course to leave the European Union.
:38:40. > :38:42.The triggering of Article 50 we say will not be an exercise
:38:43. > :38:47.of prerogative power on a whim or out of a clear blue sky.
:38:48. > :38:53.It is the logical conclusion of a process
:38:54. > :38:57.in which Parliament has been fully and consciously involved.
:38:58. > :38:59.A process in which Parliament resolved to put a
:39:00. > :39:01.clear and decisive question about our nation's future
:39:02. > :39:03.to the British people and in which Parliament
:39:04. > :39:14.expected the government to act on the answer they gave.
:39:15. > :39:23.Paul Farrelly, Labour MP for Newcastle under mine was one and all
:39:24. > :39:32.the mag only local MP who voted for those negotiations accepting Theresa
:39:33. > :39:36.May 's timetable. He is a brave man, given the 60% of his constituents
:39:37. > :39:41.voted to leave the European Union, overwhelmingly nostalgia voted to
:39:42. > :39:46.leave. You'll have to ask him for his view on it. My view is the
:39:47. > :39:51.British people are spoken and since that reference I have said we need
:39:52. > :39:55.to get on with Brexit a body to get up at an appropriate timetable and
:39:56. > :39:58.triggering article 15 get the best deal not just for Stoke on Trent but
:39:59. > :40:04.for the whole country but particularly for Stoke on Trent. The
:40:05. > :40:08.position that your party adopted during the referendum and one that
:40:09. > :40:12.Mr Farrelly used deliberately stood very strongly is that the partition
:40:13. > :40:16.between your party and your core supporters in places where you
:40:17. > :40:20.desperately need to rebuild support. Paul will have his reasons for
:40:21. > :40:25.voting the way that he feels. In terms of Labour's position I think
:40:26. > :40:29.for me it is very clear. My view is that we have to abide by the will of
:40:30. > :40:33.the British people. We need to make sure that we get a really good deal
:40:34. > :40:44.out of this and we have to hold the government to account because quite
:40:45. > :40:54.frankly having this uptake, -- uptake --opaque Brexit means Brexit
:40:55. > :41:09.business is nonsense. We have to have an overview. Are you are closet
:41:10. > :41:17.remoaner in a bedsit government? --Brexit. We will play our part
:41:18. > :41:20.after we have left the European Union on important matters like
:41:21. > :41:24.security and environment. The primers said she will trigger
:41:25. > :41:29.article 50 by the end of March and that she intends to do and that we
:41:30. > :41:34.are all continued to doing. I'm very pleased that last week Parliament
:41:35. > :41:38.voted to do just that. Briefly, what about the Supreme Court ruling? It
:41:39. > :41:46.seems to me it is much political as a legal argument. Jeremy Wright is
:41:47. > :41:49.doing his best. I'm sure he thinks we have a good case and with
:41:50. > :41:53.appearing on that basis and we will have to see what the decision is in
:41:54. > :41:58.January. Parliament has spoken as well as the people and we will be
:41:59. > :42:02.triggering article 50 by the end of March.
:42:03. > :42:04.It's the world's second-largest decision-making body, surpassed only
:42:05. > :42:07.by China's National People's Congress.
:42:08. > :42:09.There are well over 800 members of the House
:42:10. > :42:11.of Lords, including 45 from David Cameron's
:42:12. > :42:16.But from our part of the country, just three dozen.
:42:17. > :42:19.Pro rata, we'd have more than twice as many.
:42:20. > :42:23.Our Political reporter James Bovill has been treading the well-carpeted
:42:24. > :42:35.A Bill will be introduced to remove the right of hereditary peers
:42:36. > :42:40.to sit and vote in the House of Lords.
:42:41. > :42:52.It will be the first stage in a process of reform to make
:42:53. > :42:53.the House of Lords more democratic and
:42:54. > :43:00.Most peers are still white and male and they are still
:43:01. > :43:01.appointed rather than elected and they now
:43:02. > :43:03.outnumber MPs by more than
:43:04. > :43:16.And even they agree that has to change.
:43:17. > :43:18.Including the Lord Speaker, and former Sutton Coldfield
:43:19. > :43:22.I think it is too big to have over 800 members here.
:43:23. > :43:24.It is bigger than the House of Commons.
:43:25. > :43:29.I also think it stands on the way of people
:43:30. > :43:32.understanding the good things, the very good things the House of
:43:33. > :43:37.The debating chamber behind me would need an extra 600 seats
:43:38. > :43:41.just to fit in 800 or so peers but there is no consensus yet how to
:43:42. > :43:43.bring those numbers down, some feel that should
:43:44. > :43:44.be a retirement age, say
:43:45. > :43:48.But the most radical proposal of all is
:43:49. > :43:50.scrapping the current system altogether.
:43:51. > :43:52.The Electoral Reform Society says the time for action is
:43:53. > :43:57.At a time when the number of MPs is going to be reduced from 650
:43:58. > :44:01.we think this is the time for reform, not only to tackle the size
:44:02. > :44:07.of the chamber, which is vast, but also to tackle its democratic
:44:08. > :44:10.legitimacy by introducing elections for the House of Lords.
:44:11. > :44:11.Most Liberal Democrats agree that peers should be
:44:12. > :44:15.elected which could help to address the Lords' London-centric
:44:16. > :44:19.Baroness Burt of Solihull is one of just 36 peers with
:44:20. > :44:26.I think it is more difficult for people from the
:44:27. > :44:29.regions and I don't think that we get a strong
:44:30. > :44:33.If we had an elected upper chamber we
:44:34. > :44:37.Peers voted unanimously on Monday to pursue plans
:44:38. > :44:40.for a smaller second chamber - led by former South
:44:41. > :44:48.another former West Midlands MP - thinks numbers could be halved
:44:49. > :44:51.and in her iconic boom she had a clear message
:44:52. > :44:53.to former prime ministers who have stuffed the Lords
:44:54. > :44:59.It has no place in a Parliamentary system.
:45:00. > :45:01.The abolition of their untrammelled power is long overdue.
:45:02. > :45:12.Many hope reducing the size of the Lords is just the first step
:45:13. > :45:15.But with Brexit negotiations looming, I've been told
:45:16. > :45:19.this won't be a priority for Theresa May's government.
:45:20. > :45:28.Until it is, the Lords is likely to remain a little bit congested.
:45:29. > :45:34.And we're also joined here today by the Labour peer Lord Snape.
:45:35. > :45:37.As Peter Snape, he nursed what was then the distinctly
:45:38. > :45:40.marginal seat of West Bromwich East through no fewer than seven general
:45:41. > :45:44.His front bench roles have included Transport,
:45:45. > :45:54.It is one thing to the House of Lords to agree that are too many but
:45:55. > :46:00.it is another thing to agree what to do about it. It was a lot bigger
:46:01. > :46:05.before tourney player got rid of about 600 hereditary peers in 1999.
:46:06. > :46:11.But it is still predominantly white and advanced in age and metropolitan
:46:12. > :46:15.London. I am quite an advanced in age but not metropolitan London I'm
:46:16. > :46:19.glad to say. Successive prime ministers have tried to do something
:46:20. > :46:23.about it and it is changing, albeit slowly and not working for many
:46:24. > :46:27.people. What is the answer? A cull of people who do not turn up very
:46:28. > :46:33.often an age limit? The problem about an age limit is anybody who
:46:34. > :46:42.recommends age limit recommends 15 years older than the art. A cull of
:46:43. > :46:49.people who do not turn up. What say? -- five years older than they are. I
:46:50. > :46:53.have been in politics 40 years and have taught by the House of Lords
:46:54. > :47:05.all that time and nobody seems to know what to do about it. Baroness
:47:06. > :47:09.Burt says it is hard to hear and Midlands boys, do you agree? The
:47:10. > :47:14.peers that there are certainly pulling away the West Midlands but
:47:15. > :47:19.parts of the Royal commission would actually come up with a solution are
:47:20. > :47:23.partly hereditary and partly elected House, something much smaller.
:47:24. > :47:28.Harold Wilson was very much in favour of rock emissions but he says
:47:29. > :47:31.that ministers set up years the report but at the end that is not
:47:32. > :47:35.very much. If they're going to do something about not happen in the
:47:36. > :47:39.near future. Ed Miliband makes the point it is not just
:47:40. > :47:45.unrepresentative geographically but also social and economic identity of
:47:46. > :47:50.the country. He has a point though it was not a great success when he
:47:51. > :47:54.was leader of my party. I do not feel the need to defend and 100% of
:47:55. > :47:58.the time. You work Parliament the major secretary that the land Lord
:47:59. > :48:01.Chancellor. Since then despite the abolition of hereditary peers they
:48:02. > :48:06.look at the plate is not changed very much at all. I would properly
:48:07. > :48:13.go further than Peter and say that the Midlands punch above their
:48:14. > :48:16.weight in terms of 3% representation but you'd think was that are present
:48:17. > :48:21.in the work they do. It also shines light on the bigger issue. At the
:48:22. > :48:24.same time is a proposal to cut the number of MPs, coincidentally when
:48:25. > :48:33.will have more work to do over Brexit. , it is OK to cut the number
:48:34. > :48:38.of elected MPs but also OK to stuff the House of Lords will of cronies
:48:39. > :48:41.of David Cameron. There was a huge number notoriously in David Cameron
:48:42. > :48:49.'s resignation honours. Digby Jones makes the point that with Brexit in
:48:50. > :48:54.mind the government will rue the day they did their climb-down in the
:48:55. > :48:57.forming the Lords because you have 100 plus Liberal Democrats in the
:48:58. > :49:04.Lords who will be determined to stop the Brexit stop it wherever they
:49:05. > :49:09.can. I don't think the last government climb-down on the House
:49:10. > :49:16.of Lords, they were repeated on the reform. They have shelved David
:49:17. > :49:21.Cameron 's reforms now in order to normalise the relationship with
:49:22. > :49:24.Brexit in mind. I think we have enough to do in government and
:49:25. > :49:29.Parliament in securing the best possible outcome to the Brexit
:49:30. > :49:33.negotiations as well as implement in the rest of our manifesto and could
:49:34. > :49:36.probably do without a lot of distraction on debating the future
:49:37. > :49:40.of the House of Lords. Do you think this is a landmark moment are one of
:49:41. > :49:44.those tokenistic sports that was last week would it seem like a
:49:45. > :49:53.moment of unanimity but it is not actually binding. I spent quite a
:49:54. > :49:57.few years and it is extremely time consuming. Unthinkable I said would
:49:58. > :50:00.be more apt to say should we not be doing something more important
:50:01. > :50:04.rather than gazing at our own enables and talking about reform.
:50:05. > :50:09.The point of rock made by David Cameron, he stuffed the Playschool
:50:10. > :50:14.of his own cronies. I'm amazed that larded adenosine cat is not sat on
:50:15. > :50:21.Street cat. There is a lot of Street cat. There is a lot of
:50:22. > :50:26.hypocrisy about what happens in the House of Lords and its future. If I
:50:27. > :50:31.was asked to put any money in a change in the near future I would
:50:32. > :50:37.say it is not very likely. If I was cynical I could say that the good
:50:38. > :50:43.Lord ship is arguing for the status quo. I'm a realist and realistic
:50:44. > :50:46.about how you know that governments embark on reform of Parliament,
:50:47. > :50:53.whether the House of Lords of eternal reform in a host of Commons
:50:54. > :50:58.at their peril. -- internal reform. Most people and West Bromwich would
:50:59. > :51:05.see the main topic of House of Lords reform is not one of the separate of
:51:06. > :51:10.mean 27 years. How many times have you given the government a bloody
:51:11. > :51:14.nose of a dreadful legislation? We can unite in a way that can't be
:51:15. > :51:17.done in the more swept House of Commons in the way that we did with
:51:18. > :51:30.what losing the money. -- wept. what losing the money. -- wept.
:51:31. > :51:34.Plasma --whipped. I think it is important for the House of Lords is
:51:35. > :51:39.elected that they do not thwart the manifesto of the governing party. I
:51:40. > :51:42.think they have a right to the view on other matters but a manifesto
:51:43. > :51:46.will of the elected House. Jack will of the elected House. Jack
:51:47. > :51:48.Straw said when he was in government it would take 50 years to reform the
:51:49. > :51:56.government. I would suspect there government. I would suspect there
:51:57. > :51:57.will not be around to see it. If it happens, I do not think it will be
:51:58. > :52:03.in my time. We return now to the lower House,
:52:04. > :52:06.because disturbing figures show most of our region's MPs have been
:52:07. > :52:14.personally abused or threatened Some have even been
:52:15. > :52:19.physically attacked. These are just some of the worrying
:52:20. > :52:22.findings of an exclusive BBC Midlands investigation,
:52:23. > :52:24.six months after the Yorkshire MP Jo Cox was killed by one
:52:25. > :52:26.of her constituents. The studio hot seat's
:52:27. > :52:31.working overtime today. Because we're now joined
:52:32. > :52:46.by our reporter Tom Turrell who's The level of abuse that our MPs
:52:47. > :52:50.suffer is astonishing. For some it is incredible. We have a knife
:52:51. > :52:55.pulled one of MPs and be a death threats and one MP is so scared for
:52:56. > :53:01.her safety and that of her office staff that she has put a panic room
:53:02. > :53:05.in her constituency office. I contacted all 63 MPs across the West
:53:06. > :53:11.Midlands and 55 responded. Of those 90% said they had been abused or
:53:12. > :53:14.threatened on social media. 75% said they had been abused or threatened
:53:15. > :53:20.in person and five had been physically attacked. Why you were
:53:21. > :53:26.talking to those 55 MPs, what are the telly about what they feel about
:53:27. > :53:29.all this? Some feel very scared, actually. Some said they are scared
:53:30. > :53:36.for themselves and also their staff. One Labour MP in the patch, she says
:53:37. > :53:43.she has received tens of thousands of e-mails abusing her. One person
:53:44. > :53:46.said they wanted to see her hand from the gallows. That said I did
:53:47. > :53:49.speak to others who said I don't just leave too much abuse. I'm
:53:50. > :54:01.perhaps not a social media and I don't get abuse that much. Gisela
:54:02. > :54:03.Stuart, Birmingham MP for Labour, disagrees.
:54:04. > :54:04.The recent very unpleasant incident at
:54:05. > :54:06.the railway station where somebody just came up
:54:07. > :54:11.And it was only because of the intervention of some other
:54:12. > :54:13.passengers who walked up to him and said look,
:54:14. > :54:15.you really ought to behave and walked him off.
:54:16. > :54:28.There have been attacks in the past. How does no compare? We don't know
:54:29. > :54:33.for sure. The statistics I have been looking at show that it is happening
:54:34. > :54:40.a lot. If you look at the time of the IRA, it happened back then. We
:54:41. > :54:43.know in the year 2000 Cheltenham MP Nigel Jones was attacked so it is
:54:44. > :54:49.not completely uncommon. It has happened in the past and really we
:54:50. > :54:55.just don't know. Have you been threatened and abuse than
:54:56. > :55:00.intimidated? I have had some abuse on Facebook when I undertook a
:55:01. > :55:06.campaign against activities of the English national defence league of
:55:07. > :55:10.whatever they're called in Dudley. That was unpleasant but doable with.
:55:11. > :55:13.I think that the free things that I think that the free things that
:55:14. > :55:17.have exacerbated this and made it a worse problem than it used to be.
:55:18. > :55:25.First of all social media enabling bullying types of people to hide
:55:26. > :55:30.behind anonymity. I think that is giving them a voice that they never
:55:31. > :55:36.had before. I was very glad to see that man from Yeovil and present for
:55:37. > :55:40.what he said which was quickly unacceptable and I would like to see
:55:41. > :55:47.more cases like that. I think also the Brexit referendum was difficult.
:55:48. > :55:57.A lot of the heat they got into that, the extreme positions taken by
:55:58. > :56:00.both sides added to it. And then beyond that I think there have been
:56:01. > :56:06.many other incidences of individuals being attacked and I think we really
:56:07. > :56:10.have got to do something about it. Rob, have you been the receiving end
:56:11. > :56:15.of the sort of thing? Unfortunately there was a procession of MPs are
:56:16. > :56:19.fair game and that has been around for nearly 12 years I've been a
:56:20. > :56:22.member of Parliament. It is often felt MPs are when you put yourself
:56:23. > :56:29.in the public limelight you are fair game to be abused. Other colleagues
:56:30. > :56:36.have had far worse than anything I might have experienced. Jess
:56:37. > :56:41.Phillips has had a panic room. Is there a particular issue for women?
:56:42. > :56:47.I think there is absolutely. Anything that sets the aside in any
:56:48. > :56:50.way, whether it be a religious background or a particular
:56:51. > :56:53.organisation in may been involved. I think those impacts and MPs
:56:54. > :56:59.day-to-day work because you can't be as open and accessible. Is there a
:57:00. > :57:06.women's issue in their charisma that is a lot of misogyny and social
:57:07. > :57:11.media. It is unacceptable. I think a lot of Labour MPs as suffering from
:57:12. > :57:18.the Momentum group which is another development exacerbating it. Tom,
:57:19. > :57:23.what are your reflections? We want our MPs to listen to us and we want
:57:24. > :57:25.our MPs to talk to us. For that to happen you need openness and that
:57:26. > :57:36.openness I'm afraid comes with some rest.
:57:37. > :57:42.Our wound up in 60 seconds. -- round-up.
:57:43. > :57:45.The Shropshire home where Jeremy Corbyn grew up is for sale.
:57:46. > :57:47.Yew Tree Manor near Newport has a price tag of ?650,000.
:57:48. > :57:50.Dudley Labour MP Ian Austin has helped set up a new All Party
:57:51. > :57:53.Parliamentary Group to speak up for the West Midlands
:57:54. > :57:57.along with Stafford's Conservative MP Jeremy Lefroy.
:57:58. > :58:02.Newspaper columnist Tim Montgomerie clashed with Shrewsbury's MP
:58:03. > :58:11.on the Daily Politics accusing him of being an apologist
:58:12. > :58:15.This is what the likes of Mr Montgomerie and others,
:58:16. > :58:24.the other neo-cons, I was called last week by a right-wing think tank
:58:25. > :58:26.in America a Trojan horse for the Kremlin.
:58:27. > :58:28.Rail services came under fire from backbench Tories -
:58:29. > :58:29.firstly overcrowding on the London Midland
:58:30. > :58:31.operated Chase Line service was highlighted by Cannock MP
:58:32. > :58:34.And Gloucester MP Richard Graham got stuck
:58:35. > :58:38.Only three of the 60 services a day between Bristol and Birmingham
:58:39. > :58:59.To conservatives on the warpath. I was shocked to was only three
:59:00. > :59:04.stopping trains from Gloucester to Birmingham. I think that will be
:59:05. > :59:09.looked into. When franchises come up for renewal that sort of thing
:59:10. > :59:15.should be lobbied for in no uncertain terms. Is it a good thing
:59:16. > :59:17.that Chris Grayling, but Transport Secretary is trying to bring Network
:59:18. > :59:23.Rail and the private operators together? Bringing Network Rail back
:59:24. > :59:27.to the 19th century, know I don't think it is a good thing. We so
:59:28. > :59:31.under the last Labour government when, Railtrack fell apart to be
:59:32. > :59:34.rescued by the government and lives in the east coast main line that was
:59:35. > :59:40.returning ?1 billion to the government has gone back into public
:59:41. > :59:43.hands -- private hands. It shows that franchise that are working for
:59:44. > :59:46.the customers need to be brought back into the public centre the Max
:59:47. > :59:56.factor. -- are not working. My thanks to Margot
:59:57. > :59:58.James and Rob Flello. Finally from me, Britain's biggest
:59:59. > :00:01.local authority is in the spotlight Selly Oak's Labour MP Steve McCabe
:00:02. > :00:05.opens a debate on what he calls the Government's "catastrophic
:00:06. > :00:06.funding plans" for It's cutting ?78 million
:00:07. > :00:09.from services, while increasing We'll have more
:00:10. > :00:12.on this, next Sunday. This though is where
:00:13. > :00:13.we re-join Andrew Neil. still the biggest factor. We are
:00:14. > :00:15.running out of time. Now, Foreign Secretary
:00:16. > :00:29.Boris Johnson was rebuked by Downing Street this week -
:00:30. > :00:32.yes, again - after the Guardian revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia
:00:33. > :00:34.of being among countries engaged in fighting "proxy wars"
:00:35. > :00:36.in the Middle East, breaking the Foreign Office's convention
:00:37. > :00:39.of not criticising a key UK ally in the region and annoying the prime
:00:40. > :00:42.minister who'd just returned The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
:00:43. > :00:49.was asked about it And let's be very clear about this,
:00:50. > :00:56.the way some of his remarks were reported seemed to imply
:00:57. > :00:59.we didn't support the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself,
:01:00. > :01:02.and it is being attacked by Houthi terrorists from over
:01:03. > :01:04.the border with Yemen, didn't support what Saudi is doing
:01:05. > :01:06.in leading the campaign to restore Some of the reporting led people
:01:07. > :01:14.to think that, and that is all... This was simply the way
:01:15. > :01:17.it was reported and interpreted. The way it was interpreted left
:01:18. > :01:19.people with the impression that we didn't support Saudi Arabia
:01:20. > :01:28.and we do. Well, Mr Johnson has been
:01:29. > :01:30.in the Saudi capital Riyadh this morning,
:01:31. > :01:32.so how's he been received? Our security correspondent
:01:33. > :01:34.Frank Gardner is in neighbouring Bahrain, where Mr Johnson
:01:35. > :01:44.was earlier in the weekend. It has probably been a long time
:01:45. > :01:49.since there has been such interest in a British Foreign Secretary
:01:50. > :01:55.visiting the gulf region. What are the political elites there making of
:01:56. > :01:59.it all? Well, they think to be honest it is a bit of a storm in a
:02:00. > :02:04.tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall story, I think a lot of people I
:02:05. > :02:09.have spoken to tend to believe that Number Ten have made such a fuss
:02:10. > :02:14.about this, that it has created a story in itself. That said, though,
:02:15. > :02:17.I think that behind the scenes there was a certain amount of damage
:02:18. > :02:23.limitation taking place between London and Riyadh, a bit of
:02:24. > :02:27.smoothing of feathers and reassuring and the Stade Saudis tell me they
:02:28. > :02:31.are reassured the message they are taking is. Coming from Number Ten
:02:32. > :02:36.and they are not taking Boris Johnson's comments to heart. He is
:02:37. > :02:40.in the dam, he has met the king, I tweet add picture of that just a few
:02:41. > :02:46.minutes ago. He has been meeting Crown Prince, and he is now meeting
:02:47. > :02:49.the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis got an opportunity to brief him
:02:50. > :02:52.according to their vision of the Middle East. They will share their
:02:53. > :02:58.security concern, which is not just what is going on in Yemen, but they
:02:59. > :03:01.are very concerned about what they see as Iranian expansionism, that
:03:02. > :03:05.has been a theme here at this conference in Bahrain that Boris
:03:06. > :03:10.Johnson addressed only a day or two ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's
:03:11. > :03:15.supposed gaffes or even the Downing Street slapping down of him, we have
:03:16. > :03:23.had the Prime Minister in the region earlier this week, we have got Mr
:03:24. > :03:31.Johnson there now, can we yet divine what the May Government strategy is
:03:32. > :03:37.in the Golf? -- Guff. In three words, in Boris Johnson's words
:03:38. > :03:43.Britain is back. He was very quick to say not in a jingoistic running
:03:44. > :03:48.up flags, new imperial list way, although that is Howley be seen by
:03:49. > :03:54.some. He gave a very forceful speech which seemed to go down well the
:03:55. > :04:00.gulf hosts here on Friday night which said Britain made a strategic
:04:01. > :04:05.mistake in, after 1968 in withdrawing east of Suez and it will
:04:06. > :04:12.reverse that decision, and invest ?3 billion over the next ten years in
:04:13. > :04:15.building up its military not bases exactly but facilities -- facilities
:04:16. > :04:18.that are here in this part of the world. There are currently 15
:04:19. > :04:23.hundred hundred British servicemen and women in this region, seven
:04:24. > :04:27.warships and so on. It isn't entirely true to say Britain
:04:28. > :04:32.withdrew east of Suez because we have had a military presence on and
:04:33. > :04:37.off here, the RAF had a base here in Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91.
:04:38. > :04:45.In 2003, of course, British planes and troops deployed from this area,
:04:46. > :04:48.but he and Theresa May are both saying post-Brexit, Britain's big
:04:49. > :04:53.emphasis or one of the big pushes is going to be to redouble its ties
:04:54. > :04:59.with gulf Arab nations, that isn't going to come as an easy bit of new,
:05:00. > :05:06.I think, to human rights campaigners and anti-arms campaigners because a
:05:07. > :05:08.large part of the ?7 billion of bilateral trade Britain did with
:05:09. > :05:14.Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals and those arms are being used in the
:05:15. > :05:16.conflict in Yemen, in some cases with tragic consequences. Thank you
:05:17. > :05:26.very much for talking to us. Instead of concentrating on Mr
:05:27. > :05:32.Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street reaction to it. Frank Gardner there
:05:33. > :05:36.has just given us a really important development, or explained what the
:05:37. > :05:40.British are up to there now. They want to be back in the gulf big
:05:41. > :05:44.time. Isn't that something we should be debating and discussing? It is
:05:45. > :05:48.fascinating. It is yet another example post-Brexit I would say this
:05:49. > :05:53.is someone who voted to Brexit, that the world is changing, and Britain's
:05:54. > :05:58.role is going to be transformed post-Brexit. I mean just on the
:05:59. > :06:03.Boris point, I completely agree, I think a lot of it is ridiculous, in
:06:04. > :06:08.a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I think what is really important about
:06:09. > :06:12.it, is that Number Ten feel threatened by him, and the reason
:06:13. > :06:18.that these ridiculous gaffes and many of them are not even gaffes are
:06:19. > :06:22.pounced upon is he is the main rival for the Crown, so it is high level
:06:23. > :06:26.power play politics, and it is May trying to keep him in his place.
:06:27. > :06:33.What do you make though, of Britain is back in the gulf? That is the big
:06:34. > :06:37.story, is it not. Utterly bizarre, post imperial fantasy, the idea we
:06:38. > :06:42.are back east of Suez? We are breaking off from our closest ally,
:06:43. > :06:47.most like us, the rest of Europe, democratic, decent human rights
:06:48. > :06:53.country, and instead we are allying ourself to perilous, dangerous,
:06:54. > :07:01.unpleasant countries... Why should we be back in the gulf? If that is
:07:02. > :07:05.the trade off, these are, you know, these renasty kingdoms, petty
:07:06. > :07:10.unpleasant and unstable countries. Don't we have to keep the straits
:07:11. > :07:14.open otherwise the oil supply collapses and the world economy will
:07:15. > :07:19.go into the worst recession depression ever? Don't we have to be
:07:20. > :07:22.involved in that We do, and I think what happens is if we leave Europe
:07:23. > :07:27.and we need trade everywhere else, we have to travel the world on our
:07:28. > :07:33.knees begging for friends from the most unsavoury people, where ever
:07:34. > :07:37.they are, whether it is... You keep saying we are leaving Europe, that
:07:38. > :07:42.is a geographic impossibility. Britain is part of Europe, we are
:07:43. > :07:46.the... Not what Liam Fox is saying. The key power in Nato, we are
:07:47. > :07:51.leaving the European Union, that is a different Tring from Europe. I am
:07:52. > :07:56.trying to move away from Mr Johnson, or even Downing Street to... You got
:07:57. > :08:01.yourself into a Brexit row. Everything is through the prism of
:08:02. > :08:05.Brexit, even what you have for breakfast, when you mix up the word
:08:06. > :08:10.like I did last week. What do you make of what Frank Gardner told us?
:08:11. > :08:14.I am somewhere between the two. It is a nighs the line say we are back
:08:15. > :08:16.in the Middle East and we will take this part of the world seriously,
:08:17. > :08:22.the truth is our military is almost tiny, it is smaller than it was in
:08:23. > :08:28.the Napoleonic wars, that is not a huge amount more. Of course there S
:08:29. > :08:33.one of the two new aircraft carriers, that will be deployed in
:08:34. > :08:40.the gulf, to help the Americans keep the straits of her muz open, because
:08:41. > :08:44.it is in Europe's interest, not just Britains, Europe's interest that
:08:45. > :08:51.these straits stay open, which is more so than America. That is what
:08:52. > :08:56.FRANK was talking about. That is no change, British foreign policy has
:08:57. > :09:02.been keeping the straits open... Now we have the ability do it. We don't
:09:03. > :09:12.have an aircraft aier at the moment. Nor do we have the fleet of ships it
:09:13. > :09:16.needs. It is a great thing to be trade morgue with the Nice, to be
:09:17. > :09:20.turning -- Middle East, to be turning round more tax revenues and
:09:21. > :09:25.the like. Even selling weapons. I don't know what more can be done.
:09:26. > :09:28.You look at what has happened. BBC has had horrific reports from the
:09:29. > :09:32.Yemen and if you look at what the weapons are being used for, is that
:09:33. > :09:38.the trade we want? Right. Let us move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a
:09:39. > :09:40.speech yesterday but he was inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell.
:09:41. > :09:53.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:54. > :09:55.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:56. > :10:09.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:10. > :10:15.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:16. > :10:19.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:20. > :10:24.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:25. > :10:28.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:29. > :10:34.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:35. > :10:40.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:41. > :10:44.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:45. > :10:52.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:53. > :10:57.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:10:58. > :11:01.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:02. > :11:07.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:08. > :11:10.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:11. > :11:14.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:15. > :11:19.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:20. > :11:23.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:24. > :11:28.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:29. > :11:36.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:37. > :11:40.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:41. > :11:46.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:47. > :11:51.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:52. > :11:56.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:57. > :12:00.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:01. > :12:04.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:05. > :12:07.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:08. > :12:11.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:12. > :12:15.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:16. > :12:21.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:22. > :12:25.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:26. > :12:31.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:32. > :12:34.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:35. > :12:38.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:39. > :12:43.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:44. > :12:48.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:49. > :12:54.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:55. > :12:58.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:12:59. > :13:02.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:03. > :13:07.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:08. > :13:14.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:15. > :13:20.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:21. > :13:24.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:25. > :13:26.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:27. > :13:31.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:32. > :13:37.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:38. > :13:40.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:41. > :13:43.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:44. > :14:19.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:20. > :14:45.# We're going to have a party tonight
:14:46. > :14:50.# I'm going to find that boy underneath the mistletoe