15/01/2017

:00:32. > :00:36.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37. > :00:38.Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:39. > :00:42.of the EU's single market and its customs union?

:00:43. > :00:45.We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:46. > :00:52.Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:53. > :00:55.As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:56. > :00:59.of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:01:00. > :01:05.Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:06. > :01:27.And the campaign for the well, joins us live.

:01:28. > :01:30.And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

:01:31. > :01:33.hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

:01:34. > :01:41.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:42. > :01:47.So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

:01:48. > :01:50.in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

:01:51. > :01:54.and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

:01:55. > :01:57.Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:01:58. > :02:01.The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:02:02. > :02:05.gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

:02:06. > :02:07.will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:08. > :02:12.of the single market and customs union.

:02:13. > :02:15.The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

:02:16. > :02:17.they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

:02:18. > :02:21.The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

:02:22. > :02:24.hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

:02:25. > :02:27.And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

:02:28. > :02:30.explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

:02:31. > :02:32.and call for an end to free movement.

:02:33. > :02:35.Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

:02:36. > :02:36.I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

:02:37. > :02:44.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

:02:45. > :02:49.Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

:02:50. > :02:53.most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

:02:54. > :02:59.But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

:03:00. > :03:02.that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

:03:03. > :03:07.the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

:03:08. > :03:10.the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:11. > :03:15.basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

:03:16. > :03:19.with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

:03:20. > :03:22.stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:23. > :03:26.British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:27. > :03:30.ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:31. > :03:34.upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:35. > :03:38.position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:39. > :03:43.and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

:03:44. > :03:48.it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

:03:49. > :03:52.the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

:03:53. > :03:56.believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

:03:57. > :04:00.resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:04:01. > :04:05.Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:06. > :04:09.negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

:04:10. > :04:12.really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

:04:13. > :04:18.fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

:04:19. > :04:23.whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

:04:24. > :04:27.the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

:04:28. > :04:30.Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

:04:31. > :04:35.final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

:04:36. > :04:41.Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

:04:42. > :04:45.Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

:04:46. > :04:48.a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

:04:49. > :04:53.introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

:04:54. > :04:56.It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

:04:57. > :04:59.servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:00. > :05:04.deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:05. > :05:10.the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:11. > :05:12.Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

:05:13. > :05:16.You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

:05:17. > :05:18.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:19. > :05:25.of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

:05:26. > :05:29.it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

:05:30. > :05:33.good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

:05:34. > :05:36.that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

:05:37. > :05:39.nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

:05:40. > :05:44.best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

:05:45. > :05:48.that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

:05:49. > :05:51.union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

:05:52. > :05:55.package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

:05:56. > :05:59.better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:06:00. > :06:03.travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

:06:04. > :06:07.Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

:06:08. > :06:10.and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

:06:11. > :06:13.the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

:06:14. > :06:18.believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

:06:19. > :06:25.for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:26. > :06:28.ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

:06:29. > :06:33.continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:34. > :06:37.what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:38. > :06:41.Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:42. > :06:43.membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:44. > :06:50.amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:51. > :06:53.believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:54. > :06:57.I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:58. > :07:01.people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:07:02. > :07:06.individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:07. > :07:11.your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

:07:12. > :07:15.freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:16. > :07:20.Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:21. > :07:23.don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

:07:24. > :07:29.without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

:07:30. > :07:32.depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:33. > :07:37.white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

:07:38. > :07:40.flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

:07:41. > :07:44.corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:45. > :07:50.that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

:07:51. > :07:56.members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:57. > :08:00.of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

:08:01. > :08:03.many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

:08:04. > :08:07.you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:08. > :08:10.aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:11. > :08:14.that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

:08:15. > :08:18.very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:19. > :08:22.in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:23. > :08:28.answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:29. > :08:33.the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:34. > :08:38.deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:39. > :08:42.right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

:08:43. > :08:45.you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

:08:46. > :08:49.afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

:08:50. > :08:55.The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

:08:56. > :09:03.Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:09:04. > :09:07.the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:08. > :09:10.of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:11. > :09:14.only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:15. > :09:20.for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:21. > :09:25.that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:26. > :09:27.migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:28. > :09:31.that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:32. > :09:34.is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:35. > :09:38.customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:39. > :09:42.clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:43. > :09:45.don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:46. > :09:53.definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:54. > :09:55.is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:56. > :09:58.somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:09:59. > :10:03.hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

:10:04. > :10:06.option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:07. > :10:09.personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:10. > :10:18.We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

:10:19. > :10:21.on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

:10:22. > :10:26.reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:27. > :10:29.possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:30. > :10:33.David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:34. > :10:38.Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:39. > :10:42.are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

:10:43. > :10:49.rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:50. > :10:52.arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:53. > :10:56.encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:57. > :10:59.deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:00. > :11:04.service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:05. > :11:08.this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:09. > :11:11.you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:12. > :11:17.years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:18. > :11:20.to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:21. > :11:25.would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:26. > :11:30.What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:31. > :11:33.of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:34. > :11:39.machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:40. > :11:43.pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:44. > :11:48.you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:49. > :11:54.Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:55. > :11:58.European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:59. > :12:02.of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:03. > :12:06.these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:07. > :12:09.intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:10. > :12:14.what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:15. > :12:17.Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:18. > :12:21.markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:22. > :12:25.doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:26. > :12:28.it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

:12:29. > :12:30.Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

:12:31. > :12:33.week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

:12:34. > :12:34.enact a controversial piece of legislation.

:12:35. > :12:37.Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:38. > :12:40.could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:41. > :12:50.If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:51. > :12:52.The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:53. > :12:55.while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:56. > :12:56.a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:57. > :13:02.Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:13:03. > :13:06.It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:07. > :13:11.a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:12. > :13:14.They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:15. > :13:17.It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:18. > :13:26.a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:27. > :13:30.and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:31. > :13:31.which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:32. > :13:34.If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:35. > :13:35.that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

:13:36. > :13:38.like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:39. > :13:44.To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

:13:45. > :13:48.the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

:13:49. > :13:51.publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:52. > :13:55.costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

:13:56. > :13:58.It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

:13:59. > :14:02.We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

:14:03. > :14:04.This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:05. > :14:10.of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:11. > :14:13.from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:14. > :14:19.It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:20. > :14:25.I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:26. > :14:26.you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:27. > :14:29.I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:30. > :14:32.there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:33. > :14:34.standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:35. > :14:37."Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:38. > :14:39.Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:40. > :14:48.We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:49. > :14:50.for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:51. > :14:53.They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:54. > :14:55.from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:56. > :15:04.a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:15:05. > :15:07.Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:08. > :15:12.Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:13. > :15:14.the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:15. > :15:21.doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:22. > :15:24.The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:25. > :15:26.There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:27. > :15:29.won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:30. > :15:33.are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:34. > :15:36.Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:37. > :15:37.through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:38. > :15:40.Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:41. > :15:43.when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:44. > :15:50.If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:51. > :15:55.we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:56. > :15:58.The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:59. > :15:59.since the Government launched its consultation

:16:00. > :16:02.In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:03. > :16:07.And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:08. > :16:11.a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:12. > :16:14.The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:15. > :16:20.One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:21. > :16:22.So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:23. > :16:31.I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:32. > :16:34.What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:35. > :16:39.on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:40. > :16:42.was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:43. > :16:45.regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:46. > :16:50.which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:51. > :16:54.then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:55. > :16:56.case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:57. > :17:01.The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:02. > :17:04.I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:05. > :17:08.about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:09. > :17:11.to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:12. > :17:14.But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:15. > :17:24.I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:25. > :17:27.Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:28. > :17:31.and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:32. > :17:40.Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:41. > :17:44.that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:45. > :17:49.press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:50. > :17:53.we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:54. > :17:57.into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:58. > :18:02.absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:03. > :18:07.like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:08. > :18:08.hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:09. > :18:36.means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:37. > :18:38.many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:39. > :18:40.does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:41. > :18:43.You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:44. > :18:46.People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:47. > :18:49.from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:50. > :18:52.but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:53. > :18:59.money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:19:00. > :19:03.from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:04. > :19:08.the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:09. > :19:11.because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:12. > :19:21.most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:22. > :19:26.the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:27. > :19:32.influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:33. > :19:37.lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:38. > :19:45.historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:46. > :19:50.family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:51. > :19:55.control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:56. > :19:59.the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:20:00. > :20:05.completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:06. > :20:08.wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:09. > :20:15.because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:16. > :20:19.curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:20. > :20:25.press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:26. > :20:30.Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:31. > :20:37.is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:38. > :20:43.tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:44. > :20:49.advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:50. > :20:54.Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:55. > :20:58.be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:59. > :21:02.press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:03. > :21:07.reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:08. > :21:09.selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:10. > :21:14.absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:15. > :21:18.Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:19. > :21:24.remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:25. > :21:31.He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:32. > :21:39.the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:40. > :21:55.do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:56. > :22:02.code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:03. > :22:06.be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:07. > :22:11.against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:12. > :22:17.wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:18. > :22:28.I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:29. > :22:35.wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:36. > :22:40.Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:41. > :22:44.people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:45. > :22:51.but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:52. > :22:54.have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:55. > :23:00.about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:23:01. > :23:06.possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:07. > :23:11.asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:12. > :23:17.the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:18. > :23:24.some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:25. > :23:28.the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:29. > :23:34.newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:35. > :23:38.enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:39. > :23:44.their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:45. > :23:54.they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:55. > :24:04.won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:24:05. > :24:08.fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:09. > :24:13.relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:14. > :24:17.The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:18. > :24:21.against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:22. > :24:27.understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:28. > :24:34.boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:35. > :24:43.Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:44. > :24:52.Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:53. > :24:57.would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:58. > :25:02.compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:03. > :25:06.papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:07. > :25:13.they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:14. > :25:17.regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:18. > :25:22.own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:23. > :25:27.one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:28. > :25:30.expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:31. > :25:35.the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:36. > :25:40.either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:41. > :25:52.approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:53. > :26:01.independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:26:02. > :26:05.a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:06. > :26:08.Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:09. > :26:12.to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:13. > :26:15.have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:16. > :26:21.expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:22. > :26:25.which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:26. > :26:29.up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:30. > :26:37.potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:38. > :26:43.the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:44. > :26:50.the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:51. > :26:53.it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:54. > :26:58.journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:59. > :27:02.scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:03. > :27:09.that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:10. > :27:13.equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:14. > :27:18.judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:19. > :27:23.saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:24. > :27:29.should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:30. > :27:33.is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:34. > :27:39.what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:40. > :27:44.something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:45. > :27:47.happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:48. > :27:51.circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:52. > :27:55.that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:56. > :28:00.because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:28:01. > :28:05.That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:06. > :28:11.newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:12. > :28:17.Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:18. > :28:19.outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:20. > :28:24.bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:25. > :28:33.the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:34. > :28:37.guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:38. > :28:41.The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:42. > :28:46.somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:47. > :28:50.can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:51. > :28:51.The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:52. > :28:54.has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:55. > :28:58.The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:59. > :29:01.open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:02. > :29:03.The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:04. > :29:06.It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:07. > :29:09.had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:10. > :29:15.At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:16. > :29:17.or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:18. > :29:23.On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:24. > :29:26.that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:27. > :29:34.But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:35. > :29:36.He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:37. > :29:41.On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:42. > :29:43.to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:44. > :29:49.paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:50. > :29:53.On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:54. > :29:58.told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:59. > :30:02.And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:03. > :30:06.The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:07. > :30:10.was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:11. > :30:13.And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:14. > :30:20.46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:21. > :30:24.Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:25. > :30:28.opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:29. > :30:35.To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:36. > :30:37.MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:38. > :30:40.life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:41. > :30:50.Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:51. > :30:55.saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:56. > :30:58.enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:59. > :31:02.think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:03. > :31:07.have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:08. > :31:11.still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:12. > :31:16.GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:17. > :31:21.an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:22. > :31:24.is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:25. > :31:28.cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:29. > :31:32.wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:33. > :31:36.forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:37. > :31:45.to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:46. > :31:48.A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:49. > :31:51.play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:52. > :31:54.patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:55. > :31:58.by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:59. > :32:02.hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:03. > :32:07.Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:08. > :32:12.shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:13. > :32:15.or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:16. > :32:23.physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:24. > :32:27.most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:28. > :32:30.don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:31. > :32:34.working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:35. > :32:40.profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:41. > :32:47.Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:48. > :32:50.half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:51. > :32:54.of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:55. > :32:59.working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:33:00. > :33:03.not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:04. > :33:06.working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:07. > :33:10.if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:11. > :33:17.the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:18. > :33:19.out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:20. > :33:22.runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:23. > :33:27.contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:28. > :33:32.tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:33. > :33:34.the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:35. > :33:38.this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:39. > :33:43.practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:44. > :33:48.there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:49. > :33:52.are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:53. > :33:55.offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:56. > :34:00.they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:34:01. > :34:04.saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:05. > :34:09.one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:10. > :34:12.keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:13. > :34:16.should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:17. > :34:22.their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:23. > :34:27.upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:28. > :34:31.highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:32. > :34:37.the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:38. > :34:40.don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:41. > :34:45.enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:46. > :34:50.practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:51. > :34:54.advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:55. > :34:59.need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:35:00. > :35:03.short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:04. > :35:07.associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:08. > :35:10.practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:11. > :35:15.junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:16. > :35:18.this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:19. > :35:25.system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:26. > :35:29.1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:30. > :35:34.with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:35. > :35:37.when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:38. > :35:42.that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:43. > :35:46.where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:47. > :35:50.saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:51. > :35:52.services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:53. > :35:57.follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:58. > :36:00.it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:36:01. > :36:05.station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:06. > :36:12.it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:13. > :36:14.recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:15. > :36:18.haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:19. > :36:21.them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:22. > :36:24.professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:25. > :36:28.what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:29. > :36:33.you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:34. > :36:37.the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:38. > :36:40.patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:41. > :36:46.lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:47. > :36:50.necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:51. > :36:54.up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:55. > :36:57.things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:58. > :37:00.doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:01. > :37:05.empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:06. > :37:09.We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:10. > :37:13.our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:14. > :37:17.general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:18. > :37:21.wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:22. > :37:25.lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:26. > :37:28.We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:29. > :37:30.subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:31. > :37:33.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:34. > :37:35.in Scotland, who leave us now Welcome to the Sunday

:37:36. > :37:52.Politics in the Midlands. It's the proxy war about the very

:37:53. > :37:55.future of the Labour party itself. The Midlander bidding

:37:56. > :37:57.to overthrow Len McCluskey as the Unite union leader,

:37:58. > :37:59.and deliver a body blow Valerie Vaz, Labour

:38:00. > :38:11.MP for Walsall South, is the Shadow Leader

:38:12. > :38:13.of the House of Commons. And Alex Chalk, became

:38:14. > :38:16.Conservative MP for Cheltenham at the last election,

:38:17. > :38:18.ending its 23 years And a little later, how

:38:19. > :38:30.does your Garden Village grow? In Shakespeare Country

:38:31. > :38:33.or the Black Country? But we begin of course

:38:34. > :38:36.with the prospect of our first local by-election since 2004,

:38:37. > :38:40.when Terry Davis stood down as Labour MP

:38:41. > :38:43.for Birmingham Hodge Hill to become Secretary General of

:38:44. > :38:46.the Council of Europe. And it is the lure of another kind

:38:47. > :38:49.of top job, Director of the Victoria and Albert Museum,

:38:50. > :38:51.that's persuaded Tristram Hunt to resign as Labour MP

:38:52. > :39:00.for Stoke on Trent Central. It's a very tough decision

:39:01. > :39:02.to leave Stoke-on-Trent, but being director of the Victoria

:39:03. > :39:04.and Albert Museum, the greatest museum of art

:39:05. > :39:07.and design, was my dream job. It's not something

:39:08. > :39:09.I could turn down. I have had differences

:39:10. > :39:11.with Jeremy in the past, but I'm now off to be a museum

:39:12. > :39:14.director, and impartial but I'm now off to be a museum

:39:15. > :39:16.director, an impartial director of a great museum,

:39:17. > :39:20.and so it's not the time to rehearse Tristram Hunt was speaking

:39:21. > :39:22.there on Friday. It's no great secret

:39:23. > :39:24.that he was very frustrated with life under the leadership

:39:25. > :39:36.of Jeremy Corbyn and has always been the sort of threat of deselection

:39:37. > :39:39.for him ever since we knew that Stoke-on-Trent was going

:39:40. > :39:41.to come down from three So, in effect, has he jumped

:39:42. > :39:45.before he was pushed? Well, I've always known him

:39:46. > :39:47.to be a fantastic Labour He's a brilliant defender

:39:48. > :39:50.of the ceramics industry. Obviously we are desperately

:39:51. > :39:52.disappointed he has decided to take I think it's a very difficult

:39:53. > :40:03.decision anyway for anyone to take, Obviously he hasn't discussed it

:40:04. > :40:09.with me, but we wish him Obviously an intriguing by-election

:40:10. > :40:12.because I would imagine the Conservatives who were just

:40:13. > :40:15.pipped to second place by Ukip at the general election,

:40:16. > :40:17.you and Ukip will be vying I would imagine that the Liberal

:40:18. > :40:25.Democrats will try and conjure up some anti-Brexit sentiment

:40:26. > :40:29.and Labour will be trying to build up their links in the traditional

:40:30. > :40:32.area where the referendum obviously Politics has become so fluid now

:40:33. > :40:41.with the intervention of Brexit that we will have to see how

:40:42. > :40:43.it breaks down. I think it's really bad

:40:44. > :40:45.for politics, whether you are a Conservative,

:40:46. > :40:48.Liberal or Labour, that people I think it's sad that

:40:49. > :40:53.people like him don't feel they have a future in Parliament

:40:54. > :41:04.and in the Labour Party. I just think it's not

:41:05. > :41:10.good for parliament. Stoke Central has been

:41:11. > :41:12.considered an absolute bedrock Labour core constituency,

:41:13. > :41:14.but because of this European issue, because of the defiance of virtually

:41:15. > :41:18.70% of the voters in stock, there is a wedge between

:41:19. > :41:19.you and your core. We don't take anything for granted

:41:20. > :41:22.in the Labour Party. We've got some really difficult

:41:23. > :41:24.issues facing the country, not only locally have we got the NHS

:41:25. > :41:28.is a difficult issue for the government, but very soon

:41:29. > :41:30.there will be the judgment And I think we need to focus our

:41:31. > :41:38.attention on how we can do our best for the people of the UK

:41:39. > :41:46.and stock central. for the people of the UK

:41:47. > :41:49.and Stoke Central. Plenty of time to discuss stock

:41:50. > :41:51.central before that election, It's shaping-up to be

:41:52. > :41:55.a battle over the destiny The leader of the biggest union

:41:56. > :41:59.in our part of the country is campaigning to overthrow the one

:42:00. > :42:03.man who has done more than virtually anyone else to reinforce

:42:04. > :42:04.Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. Len McCluskey, General Secretary

:42:05. > :42:07.of the Unite union, faces a bruising challenge from the union's

:42:08. > :42:09.West Midlands Secretary, Gerard Coyne, who launched

:42:10. > :42:12.his election manifesto in Birmingham's Central

:42:13. > :42:15.Bus Garage on Thursday. What's a campaign

:42:16. > :42:20.without a campaign bus? Could this man be about to overthrow

:42:21. > :42:23.one of Jeremy Corbyn's most formidable allies to become

:42:24. > :42:26.Britain's most powerful union boss? Born in West Bromwich,

:42:27. > :42:28.Gerard Coyne has worked Now he's taking-on arguably the

:42:29. > :42:35.union movement's heaviest hitter. But it was this muscular

:42:36. > :42:38.man-hug that made Len Since then, the Liverpudlian has

:42:39. > :42:45.seen-off at least one attempted coup Unite under my leadership has become

:42:46. > :42:50.a powerful progressive force Nominations for the election don't

:42:51. > :43:00.close until the end of next month, and there is already

:43:01. > :43:02.a third candidate. Ian Allinson's campaign

:43:03. > :43:05.is billed as a grass roots socialist challenge,

:43:06. > :43:06.supported by the Socialist But this has all the makings

:43:07. > :43:13.of a two-horse race. Gerard Coyne falls into a long line

:43:14. > :43:16.of so-called moderate Midlands union 30 years ago they were instrumental

:43:17. > :43:21.in the counter-offensive which led ultimately to the purge

:43:22. > :43:24.of Labour's Militant hard Left. Now, as then, nuclear disarmament

:43:25. > :43:31.is a fundamental dividing line. Mr Coyne's supporters see

:43:32. > :43:35.Mr McCuskey's support of Jeremy Corbyn's policy

:43:36. > :43:38.of unilateral nuclear disarmament as a betrayal

:43:39. > :43:41.of the union's members who work I'm not quite sure what Gerard

:43:42. > :43:51.Coyne means by that. What I want to see is the operation

:43:52. > :43:54.of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty by the British government

:43:55. > :43:56.who would support that, so that we bring about the ultimate

:43:57. > :43:59.aim which we all want I want to see a Labour

:44:00. > :44:11.government that plays its part I want to see a Labour government

:44:12. > :44:14.that plays its part in de-escalating And I'm sure Gerard Coyne

:44:15. > :44:17.wants exactly the same. If this is all starting

:44:18. > :44:19.to sound very political, that's exactly what Gerard Coyne

:44:20. > :44:21.says it's not. He wants the union to concentrate

:44:22. > :44:24.more on its members, But when Gerard Coyne

:44:25. > :44:27.joined me here in our studios in Birmingham during the week,

:44:28. > :44:30.I suggested to him that a campaign to overthrow one of Jeremy Corbyn's

:44:31. > :44:33.most powerful allies couldn't help Well, that is one of my concerns

:44:34. > :44:37.about the direction of travel We are focused for far too long

:44:38. > :44:42.and to much on the political agenda. The world is changing dramatically

:44:43. > :44:44.and we faced challenging times for our membership,

:44:45. > :44:46.which means we need to focus again on what trade union

:44:47. > :44:59.and trade unionism is about. Is less bound to be seen

:45:00. > :45:02.as a proxy war for the future I think there are enough

:45:03. > :45:06.issues out there, enough concerns for our membership,

:45:07. > :45:08.to focus on those. That means are really,

:45:09. > :45:13.really insecure and uncertain Those other things I think

:45:14. > :45:20.we need to be addressing. In this part the country,

:45:21. > :45:23.we have quite a history of so-called Thinking back 30 years

:45:24. > :45:26.or so to the counteroffensive which led eventually

:45:27. > :45:28.to the Labour Party's purge of the hard left militant

:45:29. > :45:30.tendency and all that. Is your challenge now a little bit

:45:31. > :45:39.of history repeating itself? I don't recognise the term moderate

:45:40. > :45:42.when it's used to describe myself. I'm actually very angry at the way

:45:43. > :45:45.wealth and inequality is not being properly distributed

:45:46. > :45:46.in our society. What is more, I don't believe

:45:47. > :45:49.that the Unite union should be at the forefront

:45:50. > :45:51.of a political warfare. We should be focused

:45:52. > :45:53.on what our members need Unilateral nuclear disarmament

:45:54. > :45:57.has been the genuine dividing line in all this,

:45:58. > :46:00.especially given that Len McCluskey seems to support Jeremy Corbyn's

:46:01. > :46:03.line that a new generation of submarines can come

:46:04. > :46:06.in and which are not actually Bearing in mind that quite

:46:07. > :46:12.a few of your members work in the defence industry

:46:13. > :46:14.and defence-related industries, I'm clear we have to put

:46:15. > :46:24.our members' concerns Particularly those in

:46:25. > :46:26.the defence industry. They didn't understand last year

:46:27. > :46:28.by the having to argue to defend their jobs

:46:29. > :46:30.when they were busy I find it ridiculous to be

:46:31. > :46:35.suggesting that we would create a system of defence

:46:36. > :46:38.that is about preventing warfare. So to make pencils without

:46:39. > :46:45.putting lead in it seems I've been absolutely bowled over

:46:46. > :46:55.by the support that I've got right There have been representatives

:46:56. > :47:00.from all over the union who have been in touch and actually I think

:47:01. > :47:03.there is a sense that there is a time for change and a renewed

:47:04. > :47:08.enthusiasm about getting involved If the turnout is increased in this

:47:09. > :47:19.election, then have a very, If the turnout is increased in this

:47:20. > :47:22.election, then I have a very, The result will be known

:47:23. > :47:27.at the end of April. Everybody knows pretty much

:47:28. > :47:29.that your party is keen for Jeremy Corbyn to remain

:47:30. > :47:31.in his present post, so presumably you are rooting

:47:32. > :47:34.for a Len McCluskey to win this one? so presumably you are rooting

:47:35. > :47:37.for Len McCluskey to win this one? From my point of view,

:47:38. > :47:40.I think if you are a patriot, if you want the best

:47:41. > :47:43.for your country, you want a strong opposition in Parliament

:47:44. > :47:47.and that is certainly my position. I don't think the Jeremy Corbyn

:47:48. > :47:50.is providing that strong opposition. The last thing Gerard Coyne

:47:51. > :47:52.wants is my endorsement, I don't want to give him

:47:53. > :47:55.the kiss of death. Unions are so important

:47:56. > :47:57.to our democracy, but they've got to remain relevant,

:47:58. > :47:59.they've got to be answering the questions of today and I don't

:48:00. > :48:02.think the Len McCluskey leadership has been strong and if there can

:48:03. > :48:04.be a moderate moderate leadership, that is exactly

:48:05. > :48:07.what the union movement needs. Whatever his alleged faults,

:48:08. > :48:09.he is a formidable personality. You can be forceful in terms

:48:10. > :48:18.of delivering a message with great sort of brio,

:48:19. > :48:21.but if actually it's not garnering the support in the country,

:48:22. > :48:23.and it really isn't, then you are leading

:48:24. > :48:25.people down a blind alley. And I think that's

:48:26. > :48:27.exactly what's happened. I would describe

:48:28. > :48:29.this as a proxy war. You would understand why

:48:30. > :48:31.that is the way the argument seems to go, given that Len McCluskey

:48:32. > :48:34.was there, we saw the leadership result there, he's been absolutely

:48:35. > :48:37.one of the staunchest allies of Jeremy Corbyn,

:48:38. > :48:40.even it is said sending off the odd coup attempt

:48:41. > :48:43.at taking the leadership. We all have friends

:48:44. > :48:46.in different areas. If Len is a friend of

:48:47. > :48:49.Jeremy's, that's fine. As far as I'm concerned, it's

:48:50. > :48:52.a union matter and doesn't really You must have a preference

:48:53. > :48:56.one way or the other? It's nice to see a West

:48:57. > :48:57.Midlands candidate. It all seems to be happening

:48:58. > :49:01.in the West Midlands at the minute! That sounds like you're

:49:02. > :49:03.getting pretty close to offering your support to Gerard

:49:04. > :49:05.Coyne? And I don't really want to get

:49:06. > :49:12.involved in another election. I'm a member of the Labour Party

:49:13. > :49:14.and that's my view. There is a long history of so-called

:49:15. > :49:21.moderate trade unionists and Labour MPs who are involved in that

:49:22. > :49:22.counteroffensive Is this challenge we are

:49:23. > :49:29.seeing here is a bit I've worked with Unite members

:49:30. > :49:41.on preventing the privatisation of cancer services and that's

:49:42. > :49:43.where we meet, in terms of working with the union and working

:49:44. > :49:51.with the Labour Party. We meet to oppose really bad

:49:52. > :49:53.legislation coming through that is Briefly, it demonstrates again how

:49:54. > :49:57.deeply this issue of unilateral nuclear disarmament runs,

:49:58. > :49:58.both at street level and in union politics,

:49:59. > :50:00.Westminster politics? Whereas if you go into mainstream

:50:01. > :50:06.politics, I think there is a general consensus that we all want to see

:50:07. > :50:10.a world free of nuclear weapons, but nuclear unilateral disarmament

:50:11. > :50:13.is an odd thing for the Labour Party to be getting so hung up

:50:14. > :50:15.about and the British people are not, so it is surprising

:50:16. > :50:21.that they are. The chronic shortage of affordable

:50:22. > :50:24.housing has been piling the pressure on successive

:50:25. > :50:26.governments for decades. They've come up with ever more

:50:27. > :50:28.exotic-sounding answers. Garden cities, ecotowns

:50:29. > :50:33.and now garden villages. One of them is proposed on a site

:50:34. > :50:35.near Stratford-on-Avon. Our political reporter Rob Mayor

:50:36. > :50:38.asks if this really is a new idea, or just a re-branded,

:50:39. > :50:44.scaled-down version of an old one. Protests against plans

:50:45. > :50:51.for a new town in the Warwickshire There is nothing wrong

:50:52. > :50:55.with an eco-town, but this We don't have the jobs,

:50:56. > :50:59.we don't have the facilities. The idea for a 6,000 home ecotown

:51:00. > :51:02.near Long Marston was an idea championed by Gordon Brown -

:51:03. > :51:05.but after strong local opposition it was dropped when the coalition

:51:06. > :51:11.government came to power. Now, just down the road

:51:12. > :51:13.at Long Marston Airfield the government is backing plans

:51:14. > :51:16.for a new garden village Some of those who protested

:51:17. > :51:23.all those years ago say For a decade, we fought

:51:24. > :51:31.the eco-town at the Army camp because people were worried

:51:32. > :51:33.about the infrastructure, the natural environment and the area

:51:34. > :51:40.of outstanding natural beauty. What I want to see is the government

:51:41. > :51:44.putting their hands in their pocket and bringing out the money

:51:45. > :51:46.that is required for So, it's a scaled down

:51:47. > :51:49.version of an old idea, But this time applied

:51:50. > :51:54.for by Stratford-upon-Avon District Council and not

:51:55. > :51:56.imposed by the government. I hope Stratford can jolly

:51:57. > :51:59.well sort out the roads, because that will be

:52:00. > :52:01.the biggest problem. So instead of new towns

:52:02. > :52:14.in the countryside, might it be These houses in Walsall are part

:52:15. > :52:19.of the Black Country garden city project,

:52:20. > :52:21.not a garden city in the traditional sense, but a mixture of hundreds

:52:22. > :52:25.of different site in urban areas being developed with garden

:52:26. > :52:29.city principles in mind. The Black Country Garden City missed

:52:30. > :52:33.out on any cash in the Government's recent Garden Town announcement,

:52:34. > :52:37.but it's backers say it makes sense to build where the infrastructure

:52:38. > :52:42.is already in place. We have a lot of land that

:52:43. > :52:46.at the moment is underutilised. There is a significant

:52:47. > :52:48.amount of housing needs in the Black Country,

:52:49. > :52:51.so whilst thinking about developing the land, a set of principles have

:52:52. > :52:54.been designed to look at this in terms of a garden city

:52:55. > :52:59.on the basis of infield development. The government has promised

:53:00. > :53:02.?6 million over the next two years, to help deliver new garden

:53:03. > :53:06.towns and villages. Charities say promises of good

:53:07. > :53:11.roaads and housing must be kept. Garden city principles

:53:12. > :53:16.produce fantastic places, but they involve, for example,

:53:17. > :53:19.harnessing a bit of development value for people to reinvest

:53:20. > :53:22.in communities, lots of great infrastructure, proper schools,

:53:23. > :53:24.houses, green space. With estimates suggesting the UK

:53:25. > :53:29.needs to build another 220,000 homes a year just to keep up with demand,

:53:30. > :53:35.it's a mountain to climb. I'm guessing that as a Walsall MP

:53:36. > :53:38.you would have quite liked the government backing

:53:39. > :53:41.for the Black Country proposal and the money that

:53:42. > :53:43.would have come with it? The number of affordable housing

:53:44. > :53:52.is come down from 66,000 in 2014, So there is a real need

:53:53. > :54:06.to build affordable houses. Accord group have actually built

:54:07. > :54:09.eco-houses in my constituency. And they also had the factory

:54:10. > :54:12.to build the houses before they placed them, so I know

:54:13. > :54:15.they have a good track record. They could have done a wonderful job

:54:16. > :54:18.if we hadn't been turned down. Given the concerns we heard there

:54:19. > :54:20.about the infrastructure, the roads and so on in the Warwickshire

:54:21. > :54:23.example, you can see that by comparison Walsall looks

:54:24. > :54:26.like having a pretty strong case? Obviously I can't comment

:54:27. > :54:31.on that specific example. I think there is a real shift taking

:54:32. > :54:34.place in the country. People recognise we have

:54:35. > :54:37.got to build homes. People are not so much

:54:38. > :54:39.seeing not in my backyard, they are saying we will look at that

:54:40. > :54:42.but there has to be the infrastructure,

:54:43. > :54:44.the schools, hospitals, roads. The green belt issue is raging

:54:45. > :54:46.around Sutton Coldfield Real pressure on the

:54:47. > :54:52.Communities Secretary. You don't need to build on green

:54:53. > :54:55.belt land and certainly I am opposed And there's plenty

:54:56. > :55:01.of Brownfield land. There's plenty of houses

:55:02. > :55:04.they could be done up and brought As Accord said in your

:55:05. > :55:07.piece, they said there Of course you have to have infill

:55:08. > :55:18.as well, which is by the government say they want planning permission

:55:19. > :55:21.on 90% of brownfield sites by 2020, but there will have to be some tough

:55:22. > :55:24.decisions made elsewhere. We have got to deliver

:55:25. > :55:27.a 1 million homes by 2020. Tough decisions have got to be made,

:55:28. > :55:31.but the point want to make is that people are in certain parts

:55:32. > :55:33.of the country receptive to that, so long as you get

:55:34. > :55:36.the infrastructure right. They have got to be schools,

:55:37. > :55:38.doctors surgeries, roads. The differences in this case it has

:55:39. > :55:44.not been imposed, as eco-towns were, I think the key thing is to always

:55:45. > :55:48.talk to local people The government did have a garden

:55:49. > :55:52.city in Ebbsfleet and only 500 They've made 32 announcements,

:55:53. > :55:55.so that means 16 houses for every press release,

:55:56. > :55:58.so we do need to get a move on. For now, thank you both

:55:59. > :56:03.very much indeed. So what other political developments

:56:04. > :56:09.have been making the news this week? Our round-up in 60 seconds

:56:10. > :56:17.is brought to us today by Amy Cole. The Freedom of City has been

:56:18. > :56:21.posthumously awarded to 21 victims of the Birmingham pub bombings

:56:22. > :56:26.after a unanimous vote West Midlands Labour MEP Neena Gill

:56:27. > :56:32.has been awarded a CBE A group of blacked-up Morris men

:56:33. > :56:35.from Alvechurch in Worcestershire were jeered during a display

:56:36. > :56:39.in Birmingham's Bullring. One Morris dancing MP dismissed

:56:40. > :56:42.accusations of racism. Look, we shouldn't be

:56:43. > :56:46.racist in any way. But, come on, we have

:56:47. > :56:52.got to be realistic. England is England and we

:56:53. > :56:55.should allow for that. Inspectors say levels of violence

:56:56. > :56:57.at Hewell Prison near Redditch are far too high after an increase

:56:58. > :57:00.in fights, assaults on staff And the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt

:57:01. > :57:13.told the Commons that three quarters of all recent hospital trolley waits

:57:14. > :57:16.happened in just two trusts - This is the issue of course that has

:57:17. > :57:30.been absolutely raging, particularly since the turn

:57:31. > :57:32.of the year. If this isn't a midwinter crisis

:57:33. > :57:35.in our hospitals, what on earth is? What we would both want to say

:57:36. > :57:39.is we are enormously grateful to those people working

:57:40. > :57:41.in really tough circumstances. Government ministers keep

:57:42. > :57:42.repeating the thanks, Maybe we should have Tories seeing

:57:43. > :57:46.the unsayable and talk about taxes going up and helping

:57:47. > :57:51.the embattled health service? There are deep issues,

:57:52. > :57:54.not least that in a country of 66 million there are 1 million

:57:55. > :58:00.more people aged over 65 There are over 300,000

:58:01. > :58:03.people aged over 80. Even though there are historic

:58:04. > :58:05.levels of funding going into the NHS, demand

:58:06. > :58:07.is really rising. That is what we have

:58:08. > :58:09.to grapple with as a society. That's why the sustainability

:58:10. > :58:11.and transformation plans are so important, as we re-calibrate

:58:12. > :58:14.the NHS to cope with Won't they cut hospital beds

:58:15. > :58:17.and the net effect will be I certainly wouldn't

:58:18. > :58:21.be in favour of that What we have to have is an NHS

:58:22. > :58:26.which reflects modern life. That is frankly am older and in some

:58:27. > :58:29.cases sicker population. You have been on the Health

:58:30. > :58:31.Select Committee in your We have been saying this

:58:32. > :58:36.for the last five years. We had the health and social care

:58:37. > :58:43.act which was poor we explain We had the health and social care

:58:44. > :58:45.act which was paused. We explain that we didn't need a top

:58:46. > :58:48.town reorganisation of ?3 billion. It's been ?4.6 billion

:58:49. > :58:50.cut in social care. What do the accident

:58:51. > :58:52.and emergency doctors need? They want more staff, more funding

:58:53. > :58:56.and they want a flow of patients. And they're not getting that

:58:57. > :58:59.because people can't go On this issue of more doctors,

:59:00. > :59:04.you have to note that since 2010, And two and a half thousand more

:59:05. > :59:21.people visiting A every day. This isn't about how much money is

:59:22. > :59:30.being put in. Jeremy Hunt has picked a fight with the gym in doctors.

:59:31. > :59:39.They are pre-consultants. He has cut nurses bursaries. Squeeze local

:59:40. > :59:50.authorities, that is a key element of why people are going to A Do

:59:51. > :59:55.not need a more long-term approach? Absolutely. So many reports. Stephen

:59:56. > :00:04.Dorrell cheered the Health Select Committee. Reports have been coming

:00:05. > :00:11.out of our ears since 2010. I agree. I think a cross-party approach

:00:12. > :00:13.Bromey can battle some of these issues is needed. It is all they

:00:14. > :00:17.are. The blueprint is there. My thanks to Valerie

:00:18. > :00:19.Vaz and Alex Chalk. Finally from me, we'll have

:00:20. > :00:21.more on those challenges facing our health services

:00:22. > :00:23.in a special programme Inside Out will ask if the different

:00:24. > :00:27.ways in which they are now being rationed from one place

:00:28. > :00:28.to another, means it's questionable

:00:29. > :00:30.whether the NHS really is still a truly National

:00:31. > :00:32.Health Service, or not. Inside Out is here on BBC One

:00:33. > :00:35.at 7:30pm tomorrow evening. This though is where

:00:36. > :00:40.we rejoin Andrew Neil. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

:00:41. > :00:48.would tone things down after the American election

:00:49. > :00:58.campaign, they may have The period where he has been

:00:59. > :01:03.President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

:01:04. > :01:04.on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

:01:05. > :01:06.inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

:01:07. > :01:10.to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

:01:11. > :01:13.at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

:01:14. > :01:16.in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

:01:17. > :01:18.obtained compromising information You are attacking our

:01:19. > :01:34.news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

:01:35. > :01:39.you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

:01:40. > :01:42.a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

:01:43. > :01:48.which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

:01:49. > :01:52.going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

:01:53. > :01:55.believe that story? I'm also very much of

:01:56. > :01:58.a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

:01:59. > :02:00.guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

:02:01. > :02:08.returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

:02:09. > :02:22.public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

:02:23. > :02:25.last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

:02:26. > :02:30.hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

:02:31. > :02:33.will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

:02:34. > :02:38.from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

:02:39. > :02:40.the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

:02:41. > :02:45.ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

:02:46. > :02:48.has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

:02:49. > :02:52.committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

:02:53. > :02:56.incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

:02:57. > :02:59.spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

:03:00. > :03:05.him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

:03:06. > :03:09.following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

:03:10. > :03:13.all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

:03:14. > :03:17.Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

:03:18. > :03:22.getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

:03:23. > :03:26.marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

:03:27. > :03:29.He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

:03:30. > :03:40.cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

:03:41. > :03:45.weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

:03:46. > :03:49.cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

:03:50. > :03:53.he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

:03:54. > :03:58.look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

:03:59. > :04:01.point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

:04:02. > :04:05.negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

:04:06. > :04:09.him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

:04:10. > :04:14.pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

:04:15. > :04:21.differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

:04:22. > :04:25.the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

:04:26. > :04:28.try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

:04:29. > :04:35.the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

:04:36. > :04:41.are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

:04:42. > :04:44.that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

:04:45. > :04:48.this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

:04:49. > :04:52.fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

:04:53. > :04:55.I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

:04:56. > :05:02.media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

:05:03. > :05:09.told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

:05:10. > :05:13.in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

:05:14. > :05:17.who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

:05:18. > :05:22.seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

:05:23. > :05:25.that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

:05:26. > :05:29.independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

:05:30. > :05:33.too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

:05:34. > :05:38.3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

:05:39. > :05:44.now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

:05:45. > :05:48.three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

:05:49. > :05:51.We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

:05:52. > :05:54.appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

:05:55. > :05:57.billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

:05:58. > :06:02.simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

:06:03. > :06:04.thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

:06:05. > :06:09.day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

:06:10. > :06:17.to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

:06:18. > :06:20.hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

:06:21. > :06:27.really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

:06:28. > :06:30.consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

:06:31. > :06:34.about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

:06:35. > :06:37.doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

:06:38. > :06:41.to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

:06:42. > :06:45.something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

:06:46. > :06:48.won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

:06:49. > :06:53.magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

:06:54. > :06:56.he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

:06:57. > :07:00.liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

:07:01. > :07:03.my attention that that might not be entirely true!

:07:04. > :07:07.LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

:07:08. > :07:12.system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

:07:13. > :07:16.is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

:07:17. > :07:20.balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

:07:21. > :07:23.system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

:07:24. > :07:29.way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

:07:30. > :07:35.to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

:07:36. > :07:41.him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

:07:42. > :07:45.disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

:07:46. > :07:49.and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

:07:50. > :07:54.feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

:07:55. > :07:57.those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

:07:58. > :08:00.you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

:08:01. > :08:04.offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

:08:05. > :08:12.may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

:08:13. > :08:14.parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

:08:15. > :08:16.country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

:08:17. > :08:22.free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

:08:23. > :08:27.as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

:08:28. > :08:31.the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

:08:32. > :08:34.British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

:08:35. > :08:38.loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

:08:39. > :08:43.very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

:08:44. > :08:49.Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

:08:50. > :08:53.me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

:08:54. > :08:57.period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

:08:58. > :09:01.game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

:09:02. > :09:07.whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

:09:08. > :09:11.from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

:09:12. > :09:14.Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

:09:15. > :09:17.If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

:09:18. > :09:18.Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

:09:19. > :09:23.Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

:09:24. > :09:26.as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

:09:27. > :09:28.It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

:09:29. > :09:31.It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

:09:32. > :09:33.It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

:09:34. > :09:35.It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

:09:36. > :09:40.Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

:09:41. > :09:44.you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

:09:45. > :09:46.I look in the mirror every day and I think,

:09:47. > :09:49.let's go out there and try and create a society where there

:09:50. > :09:51.are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

:09:52. > :09:53.levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

:09:54. > :09:55.where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

:09:56. > :09:58.frightened of going to university because of the debts

:09:59. > :10:01.they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

:10:02. > :10:07.Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

:10:08. > :10:11.the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

:10:12. > :10:14.they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

:10:15. > :10:19.to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

:10:20. > :10:23.their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

:10:24. > :10:27.has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

:10:28. > :10:30.they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

:10:31. > :10:35.tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

:10:36. > :10:38.Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

:10:39. > :10:44.summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

:10:45. > :10:48.the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

:10:49. > :10:54.we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

:10:55. > :10:59.as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

:11:00. > :11:04.they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

:11:05. > :11:08.mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

:11:09. > :11:12.one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

:11:13. > :11:16.sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

:11:17. > :11:20.happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

:11:21. > :11:24.a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

:11:25. > :11:32.Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

:11:33. > :11:33.because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

:11:34. > :11:36.literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

:11:37. > :11:39.you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

:11:40. > :11:42.steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

:11:43. > :11:46.feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

:11:47. > :11:50.by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

:11:51. > :11:55.and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

:11:56. > :12:00.thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

:12:01. > :12:08.to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

:12:09. > :12:10.as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

:12:11. > :12:13.afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

:12:14. > :12:19.what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

:12:20. > :12:21.elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

:12:22. > :12:26.generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

:12:27. > :12:29.out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

:12:30. > :12:32.very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

:12:33. > :12:36.would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

:12:37. > :12:41.ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

:12:42. > :12:47.Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

:12:48. > :12:50.talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

:12:51. > :12:55.laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

:12:56. > :12:59.nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

:13:00. > :13:03.has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

:13:04. > :13:05.could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

:13:06. > :13:08.I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:09. > :13:10.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.