:00:41. > :00:44.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:45. > :00:47.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:48. > :00:56.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:57. > :00:59.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:01:00. > :01:05.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:06. > :01:10.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:11. > :01:13.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:14. > :01:17.And in the Midlands, we're live from Staffordshire University
:01:18. > :01:19.in Stoke Central with five of the candidates battling
:01:20. > :01:22.to replace Tristram Hunt in the House of Commons.
:01:23. > :01:35.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:36. > :01:41.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:42. > :01:47.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:48. > :01:50.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:51. > :01:56.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:57. > :02:03.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:04. > :02:05.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:06. > :02:22.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:23. > :02:27.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:28. > :02:30.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:31. > :02:35.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:36. > :02:37.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:38. > :02:40.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:41. > :02:51.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:52. > :02:56.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:57. > :02:59.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:03:00. > :03:04.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:05. > :03:09.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:10. > :03:16.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:17. > :03:25.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:26. > :03:31.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:32. > :03:34.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:35. > :03:39.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:40. > :03:45.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:46. > :03:48.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:49. > :03:53.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:54. > :03:58.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:59. > :04:03.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:04. > :04:06.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:07. > :04:14.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:15. > :04:21.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:22. > :04:25.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:26. > :04:35.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:36. > :04:40.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:41. > :04:44.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:45. > :04:49.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:50. > :04:54.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:55. > :04:58.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:59. > :05:04.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:05. > :05:08.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:09. > :05:12.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:13. > :05:19.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:20. > :05:23.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:24. > :05:27.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:28. > :05:30.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:31. > :05:34.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:35. > :05:41.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:42. > :05:48.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:49. > :05:51.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:52. > :05:56.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:57. > :06:01.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:06:02. > :06:08.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:09. > :06:14.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:15. > :06:22.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:23. > :06:26.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:27. > :06:29.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:30. > :06:33.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:34. > :06:37.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:38. > :06:43.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:44. > :06:48.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:49. > :06:50.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:51. > :06:55.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:56. > :06:56.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:57. > :07:01.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:02. > :07:02.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:03. > :07:05.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:06. > :07:08.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:09. > :07:13.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:14. > :07:15.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:16. > :07:17.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:18. > :07:23.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:24. > :07:31.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:32. > :07:33.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:34. > :07:42.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:43. > :07:44.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:45. > :07:47.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:48. > :07:50.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:51. > :08:06.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:07. > :08:08.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:09. > :08:11.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:12. > :08:13.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:14. > :08:15.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:16. > :08:17.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:18. > :08:20.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:21. > :08:22.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:23. > :08:24.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:25. > :08:26.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:27. > :08:40.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:41. > :08:42.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:43. > :08:45.He's got a book out next month called
:08:46. > :08:47.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:48. > :08:56.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:57. > :08:59.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:09:00. > :09:05.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:06. > :09:08.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:09. > :09:13.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:14. > :09:17.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:18. > :09:20.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:21. > :09:25.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:26. > :09:31.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:32. > :09:36.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:37. > :09:40.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:41. > :09:45.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:46. > :09:48.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:49. > :09:54.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:55. > :10:01.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:02. > :10:05.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:06. > :10:09.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:10. > :10:13.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:14. > :10:18.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:19. > :10:22.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:23. > :10:27.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:28. > :10:30.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:31. > :10:35.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:36. > :10:40.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:41. > :10:45.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:46. > :10:48.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:49. > :10:54.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:55. > :10:58.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:59. > :11:01.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:02. > :11:05.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:06. > :11:08.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:09. > :11:13.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:14. > :11:20.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:21. > :11:24.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:25. > :11:29.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:30. > :11:33.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:34. > :11:38.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:39. > :11:41.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:42. > :11:48.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:49. > :11:51.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:52. > :11:56.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:57. > :12:02.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:03. > :12:05.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:06. > :12:11.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:12. > :12:15.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:16. > :12:20.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:21. > :12:27.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:28. > :12:30.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:31. > :12:35.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:36. > :12:41.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:42. > :12:45.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:46. > :12:50.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:51. > :12:54.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:55. > :12:59.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:13:00. > :13:00.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:01. > :13:04.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:05. > :13:06.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:07. > :13:09.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:10. > :13:12.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:13. > :13:14.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:15. > :13:16.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:17. > :13:18.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:19. > :13:20.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:21. > :13:28.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:29. > :13:31.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:32. > :13:34.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:35. > :13:37.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:38. > :13:47.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:48. > :14:00.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:14:01. > :14:04.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:05. > :14:08.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:09. > :14:13.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:14. > :14:18.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:19. > :14:26.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:27. > :14:29.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:30. > :14:33.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:34. > :14:39.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:40. > :14:43.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:44. > :14:48.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:49. > :14:51.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:52. > :14:56.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:57. > :15:02.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:03. > :15:06.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:07. > :15:14.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:15. > :15:19.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:20. > :15:24.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:25. > :15:28.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:29. > :15:33.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:34. > :15:37.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:38. > :15:43.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:44. > :15:48.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:49. > :15:52.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:53. > :15:56.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:57. > :16:01.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:02. > :16:04.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:05. > :16:09.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:10. > :16:13.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:14. > :16:24.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:25. > :16:30.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:31. > :16:36.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:37. > :16:43.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:44. > :16:47.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:48. > :16:51.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:52. > :16:56.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:57. > :17:00.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:17:01. > :17:04.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:05. > :17:08.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:09. > :17:15.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:16. > :17:21.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:22. > :17:30.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:31. > :17:33.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:34. > :17:38.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:39. > :17:43.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:44. > :17:47.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:48. > :17:52.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:53. > :17:57.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:58. > :18:00.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:18:01. > :18:05.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:06. > :18:08.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:09. > :18:14.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:15. > :18:19.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:20. > :18:23.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:24. > :18:29.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:30. > :18:31.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:32. > :18:35.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:36. > :18:42.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:43. > :18:47.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:48. > :18:52.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:53. > :18:55.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:56. > :19:00.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:19:01. > :19:04.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:05. > :19:10.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:11. > :19:14.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:15. > :19:19.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:20. > :19:23.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:24. > :19:28.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:29. > :19:35.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:36. > :19:39.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:40. > :19:43.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:44. > :19:48.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:49. > :19:53.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:54. > :19:58.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:59. > :20:01.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:02. > :20:06.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:07. > :20:11.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:12. > :20:17.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:18. > :20:20.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:21. > :20:26.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:27. > :20:33.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:34. > :20:37.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:38. > :20:41.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:42. > :20:47.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:48. > :20:50.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:51. > :20:54.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:55. > :20:57.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:58. > :21:01.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:02. > :21:04.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:05. > :21:09.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:10. > :21:15.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:16. > :21:20.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:21. > :21:25.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:26. > :21:29.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:30. > :21:35.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:36. > :21:41.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:42. > :21:45.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:46. > :21:49.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:50. > :21:52.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:53. > :21:56.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:57. > :22:02.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:03. > :22:06.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:07. > :22:10.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:11. > :22:16.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:17. > :22:21.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:22. > :22:24.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:25. > :22:28.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:29. > :22:31.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:32. > :22:35.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:36. > :22:39.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:40. > :22:45.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:46. > :22:48.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:49. > :22:53.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:54. > :22:59.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:23:00. > :23:02.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:03. > :23:06.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:07. > :23:10.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:11. > :23:14.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:15. > :23:19.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:20. > :23:32.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:33. > :23:36.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:37. > :23:39.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:40. > :23:42.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:43. > :23:45.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:46. > :23:49.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:50. > :23:54.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:55. > :23:59.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:24:00. > :24:05.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:06. > :24:10.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:11. > :24:15.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:16. > :24:18.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:19. > :24:24.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:25. > :24:30.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:31. > :24:33.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:34. > :24:37.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:38. > :24:42.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:43. > :24:47.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:48. > :24:51.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:52. > :24:55.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:56. > :24:59.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:25:00. > :25:04.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:05. > :25:07.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:08. > :25:11.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:12. > :25:15.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:16. > :25:21.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:22. > :25:28.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:29. > :25:32.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:33. > :25:37.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:38. > :25:39.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:40. > :25:44.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:45. > :25:50.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:51. > :25:52.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:53. > :25:58.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:59. > :26:03.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:04. > :26:07.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:08. > :26:11.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:12. > :26:14.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:15. > :26:18.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:19. > :26:23.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:24. > :26:28.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:29. > :26:31.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:32. > :26:34.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:35. > :26:43.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:44. > :26:51.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:52. > :26:54.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:55. > :26:58.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:59. > :27:04.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:05. > :27:06.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:07. > :27:09.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:10. > :27:15.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:16. > :27:20.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:21. > :27:23.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:24. > :27:26.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:27. > :27:33.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:34. > :27:37.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:38. > :27:44.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:45. > :27:47.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:48. > :27:51.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:52. > :27:54.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:55. > :28:00.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:28:01. > :28:06.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:07. > :28:09.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:10. > :28:12.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:13. > :28:16.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:17. > :28:21.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:22. > :28:26.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:27. > :28:29.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:30. > :28:31.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:32. > :28:35.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:36. > :28:37.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:38. > :28:39.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:40. > :28:41.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:42. > :28:44.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:45. > :28:47.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:48. > :28:53.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:54. > :28:55.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:56. > :29:02.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:03. > :29:07.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:08. > :29:14.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:15. > :29:17.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:18. > :29:25.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:26. > :29:27.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:28. > :29:30.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:31. > :29:33.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:34. > :29:36.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:37. > :29:39.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:40. > :29:41.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:42. > :29:44.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:45. > :29:49.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:50. > :29:56.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:57. > :30:02.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:03. > :30:04.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:05. > :30:07.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:08. > :30:18.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:19. > :30:20.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:21. > :30:25.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:26. > :30:28.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:29. > :30:31.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:32. > :30:36.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:37. > :30:38.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:39. > :30:40.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:41. > :30:42.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:43. > :30:45.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:46. > :30:49.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:50. > :30:52.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:53. > :30:55.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:56. > :30:58.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:59. > :31:00.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:31:01. > :31:02.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:03. > :31:06.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:07. > :31:09.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:10. > :31:12.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:13. > :31:15.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:16. > :31:18.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:19. > :31:28.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:29. > :31:31.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:32. > :31:33.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:34. > :31:39.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:40. > :31:42.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:43. > :31:45.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:46. > :31:49.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:50. > :31:53.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:54. > :31:54.It is still something people care about.
:31:55. > :31:57.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:58. > :32:02.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:03. > :32:05.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:06. > :32:10.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:11. > :32:12.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:13. > :32:15.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:16. > :32:18.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:19. > :32:38.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:39. > :32:49.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:50. > :32:58.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:59. > :33:06.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:07. > :33:07.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:08. > :33:15.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:16. > :33:20.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:21. > :33:25.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:26. > :33:31.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:32. > :33:35.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:36. > :33:41.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:42. > :33:45.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:46. > :33:50.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:51. > :33:58.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:59. > :34:02.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:03. > :34:12.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:13. > :34:17.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:18. > :34:20.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:21. > :34:24.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:25. > :34:28.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:29. > :34:32.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:33. > :34:37.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:38. > :34:41.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:42. > :34:45.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:46. > :34:52.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:53. > :34:57.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:58. > :35:04.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:05. > :35:09.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:10. > :35:14.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:15. > :35:18.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:19. > :35:22.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:23. > :35:30.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:31. > :35:33.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:34. > :35:39.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:40. > :35:44.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:45. > :35:48.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:49. > :35:53.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:54. > :35:58.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:59. > :35:59.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:36:00. > :36:03.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:04. > :36:07.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:08. > :36:12.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:13. > :36:17.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:18. > :36:20.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:21. > :36:24.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:25. > :36:30.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:31. > :36:36.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:37. > :36:40.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:41. > :36:44.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:45. > :36:48.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:49. > :36:53.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:54. > :36:56.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:57. > :37:00.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:37:01. > :37:06.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:07. > :37:09.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:10. > :37:13.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:14. > :37:17.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:18. > :37:21.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:22. > :37:27.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:28. > :37:33.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:34. > :37:36.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:37. > :37:40.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:41. > :37:44.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:45. > :37:48.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:49. > :37:52.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:53. > :37:54.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:55. > :37:58.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:59. > :38:01.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:02. > :38:15.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:16. > :38:17.Hello again, welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.
:38:18. > :38:20.And we have a specially-extended programme this week,
:38:21. > :38:24.live, as it happens, in Stoke Central.
:38:25. > :38:27.We've come to the Staffordshire University Students' Union building,
:38:28. > :38:30.right in the heart of this constituency, thrust
:38:31. > :38:36.centre-stage by Tristram Hunt's resignation as Labour MP.
:38:37. > :38:39.And with me here are five of the candidates who are hoping
:38:40. > :38:42.to replace him at Westminster, in a contest where there
:38:43. > :38:51.Jack Brereton, the Conservative candidate, is a Cabinet member
:38:52. > :38:56.Gareth Snell, for Labour, is a member and former leader
:38:57. > :39:04.Paul Nuttall for Ukip is Nigel Farage's successor as party leader.
:39:05. > :39:09.Dr Zulfiqar Ali, for the Liberal Democrats, contested
:39:10. > :39:13.this seat in the general election two years ago.
:39:14. > :39:15.And Adam Colclough, for the Green Party,
:39:16. > :39:21.has also stood in council elections here in Stoke-on Trent.
:39:22. > :39:24.Let's begin, though, by getting the feel of this place.
:39:25. > :39:28.Our political reporter Emma Thomas has seven things you may not know
:39:29. > :39:37.A statue of Josiah Wedgwood, one of the founding fathers
:39:38. > :39:42.of the Potteries, stands outside Stoke's main railway station.
:39:43. > :39:45.But production of Wedgwood moved out of the city in 1950,
:39:46. > :39:52.the same year that the Stoke Central constituency was created.
:39:53. > :39:55.A Labour MP has held the seat of Stoke Central
:39:56. > :40:01.Which coincidentally fell on February the 23rd,
:40:02. > :40:10.One of the city's most famous sons is Sir Stanley Matthews,
:40:11. > :40:14.the Wizard of Dribble was born in Hanley, and it's the only
:40:15. > :40:17.footballer ever to be knighted whilst still
:40:18. > :40:25.The man who captained that fateful 1912 Titanic sailing,
:40:26. > :40:29.Captain Edward Smith, was born right here in this
:40:30. > :40:38.When the Bentilee estate was built in the 1950s,
:40:39. > :40:42.it was one of the largest council housing developments in Europe.
:40:43. > :40:47.But in last summer's EU referendum, 87% of people in this
:40:48. > :40:56.The Shelton steelworks site used to spread across this valley,
:40:57. > :41:06.But unemployment in Stoke-on-Trent is now above the UK average.
:41:07. > :41:13.There are 66,500 eligible voters in Stoke Central,
:41:14. > :41:17.but at the last general election, fewer than half of those made
:41:18. > :41:35.We'll be hearing from Emma again later in the programme. We begin now
:41:36. > :41:41.by inviting each of our candidates to make a brief opening statement of
:41:42. > :41:45.intent. I say breathe, I'm going to challenge the maxim may be 40
:41:46. > :41:52.seconds each. I think it would be a good to do it in general action
:41:53. > :41:55.result order. So, Gareth Snell, you're defending the seat for the
:41:56. > :41:59.of Stoke Central vote for your? of Stoke Central vote for your?
:42:00. > :42:04.Because the Potteries is my home, my daughter was born here, it is where
:42:05. > :42:09.I met my wife and built my family. I'm invested in this community. I
:42:10. > :42:13.also want to make sure that whoever goes to Westminster is shouting out
:42:14. > :42:17.for a properly funded, publicly run NHS. I want to make sure we get the
:42:18. > :42:21.investment in our schools and roads and our public services are
:42:22. > :42:26.protected. I genuinely believe what Stoke-on-Trent Central needs is a
:42:27. > :42:31.strong, local representative in Westminster, and that should be me.
:42:32. > :42:35.So your emphasis is on NHS rather than Brexit, because it seems to be
:42:36. > :42:40.one issue or the other that is dragging headlines here?
:42:41. > :42:44.an opportunity for Stoke-on-Trent, an opportunity for Stoke-on-Trent,
:42:45. > :42:48.but the NHS is something lots of people are raising on doorsteps. The
:42:49. > :42:53.hospital is understaffed and underfunded, we need a Brexit that
:42:54. > :42:58.works for the people of Stoke and funding for the NHS.
:42:59. > :43:02.Ukip finish second in the general election, it is you to state your
:43:03. > :43:05.I think what Stoke-on-Trent needs is I think what Stoke-on-Trent needs is
:43:06. > :43:09.a national leader, and national voice, a champion in the House of
:43:10. > :43:14.Commons, someone who can stand up and be heard by other MPs and by the
:43:15. > :43:19.Government. We know in their selection there's issue surrounding
:43:20. > :43:26.jobs, homelessness, housing their problems that are there. Let's not
:43:27. > :43:30.forget that 70% or people in Stoke voted to leave the European Union.
:43:31. > :43:37.It became the capital of Brexit on June 23, we can make it the capital
:43:38. > :43:40.of change in February the 23rd. You say it's Brexit Central, but
:43:41. > :43:45.isn't the reality that health, in terms of the public mind here, given
:43:46. > :43:48.the strains on the local hospital is more of an issue on the doorsteps
:43:49. > :43:54.than the European Union? It's both. It's about making Brexit
:43:55. > :43:57.work, getting real Brexit, that people voted for, it's about
:43:58. > :44:01.controlling borders, being able to sign trade deals to get investment
:44:02. > :44:05.in the area. But you're absolutely right, the local hospital is an
:44:06. > :44:11.issue. The staff need more help and we need more money going into it.
:44:12. > :44:15.Jack Brereton, the Conservatives only third narrowly behind Ukip, but
:44:16. > :44:20.that makes it now your moment to make your case to the electorate.
:44:21. > :44:24.I am born and bred in Stoke-on-Trent, I have that in the
:44:25. > :44:26.city all my life, I'm the only candidate here who represents part
:44:27. > :44:31.of the constituency in the local council. This election comes at an
:44:32. > :44:36.important time for a start on Trent and our country. People voted
:44:37. > :44:41.overwhelmingly to leave the European Union, and that must be respected.
:44:42. > :44:46.Theresa May, our Prime Minister, has a clear plan to deliver Brexit, and
:44:47. > :44:51.I'm backing the plan. You're in charge of the regeneration
:44:52. > :44:54.aspect of the council. On that point, business hates uncertainty,
:44:55. > :44:58.and isn't that exact they want you're delivering them in this
:44:59. > :45:02.negotiation? It's important we have an economic
:45:03. > :45:08.has, in her 12-point plan, put in has, in her 12-point plan, put in
:45:09. > :45:12.for a ambitious trade deal with the rest of Europe, and that is in
:45:13. > :45:16.making sure we do maintain those links with Europe to build business
:45:17. > :45:21.and protect the important jobs in our ceramics industry.
:45:22. > :45:26.Dr Zulfiqar Ali, this is your point now to put your case to the voters.
:45:27. > :45:32.As you say, I am a doctor, I have worked for many years and as a local
:45:33. > :45:38.councillor in a local ward. I live in the city. I know the problems
:45:39. > :45:43.people face on a day to day basis. I fear that if we leave the single
:45:44. > :45:49.market, there will be a loss of trade and jobs and I also fear a
:45:50. > :45:59.loss of research coming to local universities. I was campaigning
:46:00. > :46:05.against the lack of funding to the NHS delivered by the Government.
:46:06. > :46:11.The Liberal Democrats have a tradition in this constituency of
:46:12. > :46:14.finishing second, but at the last election and you fell back from
:46:15. > :46:16.that. Is it not a danger you are going to be drowned out by the
:46:17. > :46:22.others again? Not at all. We were in coalition,
:46:23. > :46:35.and things did not necessarily go our way. We saw Zack Goldsmith's
:46:36. > :46:41.majority in Richmond Park, we have also bitten into the majority in
:46:42. > :46:45.David Cameron's constituency. Look what we have done in Sunderland, we
:46:46. > :46:57.have won is seat from the Labour Party, a dramatic increase from the
:46:58. > :47:02.previous election. Alan Colclough of the Green Party,
:47:03. > :47:09.this is your opportunity. I was born in Stoke and I understand
:47:10. > :47:11.it's area. We need to move on from a low-wage economy and bring jobs to
:47:12. > :47:13.the city. We need to fix the city. We need to fix
:47:14. > :47:22.infrastructure and end the mandatory -- misery of gridlock. Stoke is a
:47:23. > :47:27.ceramic town, with the Green Party fighting it scores, we can prosper.
:47:28. > :47:33.That is the distinctive message you have. Isn't there a danger that you
:47:34. > :47:37.and a Liberal Democrats are fishing in the same pool. Voters are very
:47:38. > :47:42.similar area of the market? No, the Greens bring a new message,
:47:43. > :47:46.we are bringing an open and fairer type of politics, for the common
:47:47. > :47:50.good. We aren't contaminated with the things that touch other parties
:47:51. > :47:55.in terms of the way they are funded. We are there on the ground, working
:47:56. > :48:01.for local people everyday. Thank you. It is clear from what was
:48:02. > :48:05.said there, there are two issues that are really centrestage in this.
:48:06. > :48:12.This is an area where something like 70%, perhaps more in some areas,
:48:13. > :48:17.voted to leave the European Union. Gareth comedian made no secret,
:48:18. > :48:21.putting it on strong times -- returns at times, what you think a
:48:22. > :48:27.Brexit. Is that not the wedge that Webber has between someone like you,
:48:28. > :48:30.and instinctive Remainer, you would just be presenting the Labour Party
:48:31. > :48:35.with the same problem if you got selected to Westminster?
:48:36. > :48:40.No, I think Paul Farrelly was wrong to vote the way he did, his
:48:41. > :48:44.constituents given a clear steer and he voted against that. If I was
:48:45. > :48:51.voted SNP, I am very clear that I would respect the vote given in this
:48:52. > :48:57.constituency. The two MPs here have already been to London to trigger
:48:58. > :49:00.Article 50. We have to have a plan that works for a Brexit, we have to
:49:01. > :49:03.make sure that the opportunities now provided I been delivered here in
:49:04. > :49:07.Stoke-on-Trent. We have to make sure we get the trade deals to protect
:49:08. > :49:10.the ceramics industry. Better make sure we deal with the issues that we
:49:11. > :49:14.know are affecting Stoke-on-Trent, Brexit provides us with an
:49:15. > :49:19.opportunity to do that. Bearing in mind, Paul Nuttall, the
:49:20. > :49:24.pottery industry itself, overwhelmingly, the industry voted
:49:25. > :49:28.to remain in the EU. I was speaking to the industry the
:49:29. > :49:31.other day, they now realise there are great opportunities outside the
:49:32. > :49:35.European Union, because we can sign trade deals all over the world. Like
:49:36. > :49:38.the majority of other countries on the planet. Don't forget, we're stop
:49:39. > :49:43.the fifth largest economy in the globe. We have fantastic
:49:44. > :49:51.opportunities now we outside of this slow tick box.
:49:52. > :49:55.Isn't there a danger that the party is over, you got Mission
:49:56. > :50:02.accomplished unweaving the EU. Your USB is no longer. The Tories are as
:50:03. > :50:06.are the party of Brexit. We are delivering Brexit, that's the
:50:07. > :50:11.key thing. We are the only party here has got a clear plan to the
:50:12. > :50:15.liver Brexit. I met with the Prime Minister to discuss that plan, and
:50:16. > :50:21.in Sherwood Armiger getting the best deal for Stoke-on-Trent.
:50:22. > :50:22.Had a ceramics comments about plan? In terms of that ambitious free
:50:23. > :50:30.trade deal, they are part of that trade deal, they are part of that
:50:31. > :50:33.deal to make sure we link in with those economies and preserve the
:50:34. > :50:40.free trade links with the rest of Europe to preserve jobs in the city.
:50:41. > :50:43.The question was, what is the relevance of Ukip now? The thing we
:50:44. > :50:48.know from Theresa May Thatcher has always been very good at talking the
:50:49. > :50:52.talk, she never ever walks the walk. We need to make sure that you could
:50:53. > :50:57.exist to hold the Government's feet to the fire and get real Brexit.
:50:58. > :51:02.In a strongly Leave minded area, we have the Liberal Democrats
:51:03. > :51:05.anti-Brexit message. That doesn't anti-Brexit message. That doesn't
:51:06. > :51:13.select a great plan? And the only opposing candidates.
:51:14. > :51:22.The Labour candidate was opposing Brexit after the referendum, and now
:51:23. > :51:29.he is following the Ukip line. I was talking last week to the director of
:51:30. > :51:35.a huge ceramics company, she was clear that the uncertainty of
:51:36. > :51:38.leaving the single market would be bad.
:51:39. > :51:42.Your party is calling for a second referendum on the EU. Who on Earth,
:51:43. > :51:48.particular year, once another referendum?
:51:49. > :51:53.What we don't want is to have it stitched up by William Fox, Boris
:51:54. > :51:57.Johnson and David Davis. -- Liam Fox. We want the people to have a
:51:58. > :52:00.final say. You are an anti-Brexit party as
:52:01. > :52:04.well? We are the party who has voted
:52:05. > :52:10.against rushing into triggering Article 50. Because only this week,
:52:11. > :52:13.the House of Lords highlighted within the Brexit agreement there
:52:14. > :52:19.was no mention of disabled people. A hard Brexit will damage the most
:52:20. > :52:24.vulnerable people, and an area like Stoke, and I see this as a tragedy
:52:25. > :52:30.worker, that will have devastating consequences on people but everyone
:52:31. > :52:36.sees in their surgeries. -- as a charity worker.
:52:37. > :52:44.This weight on to the theme of the NHS, and the very long trolley waits
:52:45. > :52:46.at the Stoke Royle. This has to be a crushing embarrassment for your
:52:47. > :52:52.campaign given that Jeremy Hunt said only this week that it is
:52:53. > :52:54.unacceptable? We had to the health services are
:52:55. > :52:59.dealing with more patients than ever before. We have issues we need to
:53:00. > :53:04.improve, that is why we are committed to investing additional
:53:05. > :53:10.?10 billion by 2020. With audit created over 10,000 more doctors.
:53:11. > :53:15.This Select Committee disputes that figure, doesn't it?
:53:16. > :53:20.There are far more nurses as well. Let's look what is happening in
:53:21. > :53:24.Wales, where in charge, cutting the budget by 8%, the only part of the
:53:25. > :53:29.UK where they are cutting the budget to our health services.
:53:30. > :53:34.Let's focus on Stoke-on-Trent rather than Wales.
:53:35. > :53:38.Jack very clearly forgets it was the Tory Government for the last seven
:53:39. > :53:42.years that has been slashing our NHS, but an incredible strain...
:53:43. > :53:50.1.3 billion less at the last election for our NHS.
:53:51. > :53:55.the Tories, we always clear up the the Tories, we always clear up the
:53:56. > :53:58.mess. The fact is we have NHS in Staffordshire that is struggling,
:53:59. > :54:03.underfunded and understaffed. We need more cash for doctors and
:54:04. > :54:07.nurses. Ukip, you had your difficulties
:54:08. > :54:11.here. I remember Farage during the election having to pull back from
:54:12. > :54:17.the suggestion that private insurance might be away into the
:54:18. > :54:22.funding difficulties of the NHS. You have yourself spent a lot of time
:54:23. > :54:26.fending off the suggestion that you've called for privatisation of
:54:27. > :54:31.certain aspects. Let's get your version of how Ukip would deal with
:54:32. > :54:37.this and deal with those suspicions two back in 2011 I was speaking
:54:38. > :54:41.the NHS, particular in the area of the NHS, particular in the area of
:54:42. > :54:44.procurement, when the NHS was spending far over the odds for
:54:45. > :54:54.certain drugs. Ukip has never had any manifesto
:54:55. > :54:58.comment on privatising the NHS. Our policy at the 2015 General election
:54:59. > :55:05.was somebody that we want to see 3 billion a year extra for the NHS.
:55:06. > :55:09.The key to this is Ukip is committed to keeping the NHS public and free
:55:10. > :55:17.at the point of delivery. The manifesto that Paul promoted as
:55:18. > :55:21.the national organiser in 2010, called for more marketisation in the
:55:22. > :55:26.NHS. Your name was on that, it went to the electric and they did not
:55:27. > :55:30.accept it. You are on record supporting privatisation.
:55:31. > :55:34.We as a party at a debate between 2012 and 2014 and we fell upon the
:55:35. > :55:37.policy that the NHS should remain public and free at the point of the
:55:38. > :55:48.livery. The only party that can tell you where the money will come from,
:55:49. > :55:53.Zulfiqar Ali, URL cardiologist, you Zulfiqar Ali, URL cardiologist, you
:55:54. > :55:58.speak for professional expertise? I have fought in the front line for
:55:59. > :56:03.many years. The Labour Party has provided some new buildings locally
:56:04. > :56:08.through PFI. That has lowered our members by 400, that is a dramatic
:56:09. > :56:20.loss of numbers for any hospital for any requirement. Nationally, the
:56:21. > :56:26.number of medical staff by publishers much higher than here.
:56:27. > :56:34.Compare to Germany, it is the numbers are much higher. The problem
:56:35. > :56:38.has been compounded by PFI. Adam, your protection for the NHS?
:56:39. > :56:46.Labourer describing themselves as defenders of the NHS. We're losing
:56:47. > :56:49.it and 54 Community Hospital beds. The Green Party is the only
:56:50. > :56:57.political party that puts forward a recent case against it. -- 254
:56:58. > :57:01.committee hospital beds. We have challenged this ECG and will carry
:57:02. > :57:05.on doing so after this election. The Labour Party has been protecting
:57:06. > :57:09.beds at the local hospital, we have let that campaign, we have been at
:57:10. > :57:14.the public meetings and you rock before an election saying you are
:57:15. > :57:16.the defenders of the NHS. That is unbelievable.
:57:17. > :57:23.Let's put this fighting in perspective. The costs -- the
:57:24. > :57:27.hospital cost millions to build, it cost ?58 million in the trust last
:57:28. > :57:33.year, it's insane. We will go on, but let's pause for
:57:34. > :57:37.breath and give ourselves a moment of reflection as far as other
:57:38. > :57:42.candidates are concerned. There are five others battling it out, as well
:57:43. > :57:46.as the ones that are here this morning. They are standing on an
:57:47. > :57:48.assortment of policies. More now from Emma Thomas,
:57:49. > :57:51.who's been talking to some of them. From the Armed Forces to politics,
:57:52. > :57:54.Godfrey is a retired Navy officer. I believe that the man of God
:57:55. > :57:58.is the one that's properly qualified to run a city and a country,
:57:59. > :58:02.because it says in the Bible, it does not lie in man who walks
:58:03. > :58:13.to know how to direct his steps. A seasoned candidate, David also ran
:58:14. > :58:16.for London mayor in 2016. The British National Party
:58:17. > :58:21.is the only antiestablishment Voting for me, David Furness
:58:22. > :58:28.of the BNP, will send the strongest possible message of protest
:58:29. > :58:33.to the out of touch and corrupt A first-time candidate,
:58:34. > :58:43.Barbara's a housewife and book-keeper from
:58:44. > :58:47.Draycott-in-the-Moors. I want to abolish the Magna Carta
:58:48. > :58:50.and bring back the monarchy to be head of Government,
:58:51. > :58:57.because they can do worse than what to be head of Government,
:58:58. > :58:59.because they can't do worse than what the politicians
:59:00. > :59:01.have done before. I want to bring back
:59:02. > :59:03.all the industry that we've lost, that's been sent abroad
:59:04. > :59:05.to other nations. We've lost everything,
:59:06. > :59:10.all because of the politicians. Calling himself the Shadow Minister
:59:11. > :59:13.for the Abolition of Gravity, this is the Incredible's
:59:14. > :59:16.fourth by-election. I used to be a werewolf,
:59:17. > :59:23.but I'm all right no-oo-oo-ow! I would put piranha
:59:24. > :59:26.in the River Trent to make Bishop to C5 and knight
:59:27. > :59:33.to D6, checkmate! Vote for the Monster Raving Loony
:59:34. > :59:41.Party, you know it makes sense. And one other candidate is standing
:59:42. > :59:46.in this by-election. Mohammed Akram is running
:59:47. > :59:47.as an independent. We invited him to take part
:59:48. > :59:50.in Emma's report, but he wasn't There are more details
:59:51. > :59:55.about all the candidates on my blog. You can find that at
:59:56. > :00:18.bbc.co.uk/PatrickBurns. Adjusted to resume with some of the
:00:19. > :00:22.wider political issues that are involved in this. Of course, the
:00:23. > :00:28.awash with speculative about your awash with speculative about your
:00:29. > :00:30.leader, Jeremy Corbyn. When you were re-elected to Newcastle Council you
:00:31. > :00:34.said that your success had nothing to do with Jeremy Corbyn. That
:00:35. > :00:38.suggests you're not a great fan of hers. And get you're the man
:00:39. > :00:42.carrying the flag for him and? I actually said the success my
:00:43. > :00:46.council by-election was because of the effort of local people, that was
:00:47. > :00:50.the point I was making. You tweeted about his support for
:00:51. > :00:58.the higher radio...? We had a very fracture summer and
:00:59. > :01:01.leadership election. We had a very fracture is leadership
:01:02. > :01:06.election over the summer, Jeremy has election over the summer, Jeremy has
:01:07. > :01:10.now been over Wembley elected by the membership of the party. He has been
:01:11. > :01:14.up to support me, I'm very grateful for that. I will be supporting him
:01:15. > :01:19.when he makes his bid to be the next primers to the Labour -- reality
:01:20. > :01:24.kingdom. But your biting your lip?
:01:25. > :01:28.No, the Labour Party is the only party it would offer an alternative
:01:29. > :01:32.to the Conservatives. We have a bust up, dust ourselves off, and we will
:01:33. > :01:36.they trim at the next election with Jeremy as our leader.
:01:37. > :01:40.Paul Nuttall, we spoke a few weeks ago and Sunday Politics, and
:01:41. > :01:45.challenged you about the fact that, so early in your leadership of Ukip,
:01:46. > :01:49.given that Nigel Farage's shoes are very big ones to fill, you are
:01:50. > :01:53.taking a real risk. I'm going to pressure on this, because if you do
:01:54. > :01:58.not win here, so early in your leadership, you will get the sense
:01:59. > :02:03.of having a loser tag around you? I'm not considering losing this
:02:04. > :02:03.election. However, it will be close, I suspect.
:02:04. > :02:07.BELL Still be only 12 weeks into my
:02:08. > :02:11.leadership, it will be a long-term project. I believe have a great
:02:12. > :02:15.opportunity, not only because people are attracted to Ukip's cause and
:02:16. > :02:19.policies, but the Labour Party at this moment in time represent a
:02:20. > :02:23.samples. They have a leader that has nothing in common with people in the
:02:24. > :02:28.constituency. -- a shambles. They have a front bench people who sneer
:02:29. > :02:35.at the fly, won't sing the national anthem, and support the IRA. They
:02:36. > :02:37.have nothing in common with the people of Stoke-on-Trent, they have
:02:38. > :02:42.more in common with the people start Newington in London.
:02:43. > :02:47.Your the Cabinet member responsible for regeneration, bearing in mind
:02:48. > :02:57.there is a high unemployment, you have a job on, a real challenge when
:02:58. > :03:01.you look at the encouraging economic news first average as a whole, but
:03:02. > :03:07.spreading that generally across the city, you've got a big job on?
:03:08. > :03:16.I been responsible for delivering over ?509 of investment in the city.
:03:17. > :03:20.We have ready created thousands of jobs and will create 8000 more over
:03:21. > :03:25.the next five years. -- ?500 million of investment. When I produce it
:03:26. > :03:28.great not just more jobs, but better skilled jobs and better paid jobs
:03:29. > :03:33.for local people. What is going to take to do that? We
:03:34. > :03:38.hear about an industrial strategy, where is the money for it?
:03:39. > :03:42.I think it is important, having that strategy. That is getting more and
:03:43. > :03:46.better skills in the city, better jobs. But thing we need to continue
:03:47. > :03:50.the investment, attract more private investment as well.
:03:51. > :03:56.Adam, I can see you can want to get in on this?
:03:57. > :04:01.If we bring jobs to this city, but we need to fix infrastructure. The
:04:02. > :04:08.council wasted millions of pounds on a failed a bid. We could use the
:04:09. > :04:13.site as a hub for a tram system that would bring training, skilled jobs,
:04:14. > :04:17.engineers, electricity, administrators, it would bring
:04:18. > :04:23.advertisement to local companies - that is how I would drive the colony
:04:24. > :04:26.forward. Talking about industrial planet, Mrs made's plans to enter
:04:27. > :04:36.the catchphrases. Do you have a message?
:04:37. > :04:39.The Labour Party and I own an alliance, and that by leading the
:04:40. > :04:42.European single market, we wouldn't have enough trade with the European
:04:43. > :04:45.Union, we would be out of competition. There would be less
:04:46. > :04:57.investment within the country and city. There are many jobs in the
:04:58. > :05:08.constituency would be at risk as well. To have investment in
:05:09. > :05:11.Stoke-on-Trent, we need to have a... Zulfiqar Ali brings your party are
:05:12. > :05:14.going to take the city on the path of destruction?
:05:15. > :05:18.I respect your position, at least your honest on where you stand. The
:05:19. > :05:22.simple fact is that we have a trading deficit with the European
:05:23. > :05:26.Union. We are the German car manufacturers' biggest marketplace,
:05:27. > :05:32.they need a free-trade deal more than we do. They need us more than
:05:33. > :05:36.we need them. Path to destruction?
:05:37. > :05:39.If Dr Ali was the top about dodgy alliances commented remember the
:05:40. > :05:45.five years his party spent with the Tory Government. One of the things I
:05:46. > :05:48.have been speaking to the ceramic industries about is that they need
:05:49. > :05:53.stability. They need to know what is going to happen, not just once we
:05:54. > :05:59.leave the EU, but what is going to happen on day one and a two. We need
:06:00. > :06:03.a plan for the Potteries, that works were stuck on Trent, which means the
:06:04. > :06:06.businesses we have can make decisions about investments, create
:06:07. > :06:11.the jobs they can, and we can see the city flourish.
:06:12. > :06:15.What do you say? What we are doing is actually
:06:16. > :06:19.delivering. Other parties might promise, we're and treat delivering
:06:20. > :06:23.with Theresa May's clear plan that will ensure we make a success of
:06:24. > :06:27.Brexit and respect the will of local people.
:06:28. > :06:30.Anyone who is then five minutes in this city knows it's a city with a
:06:31. > :06:38.very, very strong sense of local identity, which is why everybody,
:06:39. > :06:42.obviously, has a real challenge to make sure that they speak
:06:43. > :06:47.convincingly here. You are the local man, Adam, you grew up here. What
:06:48. > :06:51.are your credentials, particularly two I was born here, I have been
:06:52. > :06:57.active in local charities. And the cherub trustees for the
:06:58. > :07:00.local mental health charity, I cherub support group. I meet local
:07:01. > :07:06.people every day and listen to their problems. -- chair a support group.
:07:07. > :07:11.How important is it to come from this part of the country?
:07:12. > :07:15.I came to this part of country to work at the local hospital. I made
:07:16. > :07:21.this place my home. I live here, my children go to school locally. I
:07:22. > :07:26.know the problems local people have. I know there is a huge degree of
:07:27. > :07:30.fear. We were given the information that we would not be leaving the
:07:31. > :07:35.single market, now we are told we are. We taught there would be ?350
:07:36. > :07:42.million a week coming back, where is that? There is no money coming back.
:07:43. > :07:46.People need to have another say and what final deal we want to have.
:07:47. > :07:51.The question of luck on this is an issue, because I would suggest to
:07:52. > :07:55.you that the business of registering a local address on your nomination
:07:56. > :08:00.papers landed you in a bit of bother that you have subsequently had to
:08:01. > :08:04.move? I had to, because people try to
:08:05. > :08:10.break into the property. In the post-Jo Cox area -- era, I am a
:08:11. > :08:15.high-profile politician, I don't feel safe. I would say, this isn't a
:08:16. > :08:20.council action, this is to elect an MP. Winston Churchill wasn't local
:08:21. > :08:23.to Dundee, Harold Wilson wasn't local...
:08:24. > :08:28.Had as a Scout is a good and in the Potteries?
:08:29. > :08:35.These are very similar community is. The local MPs are from Scotland and
:08:36. > :08:40.Birmingham. An MP is a national voice and figure.
:08:41. > :08:42.Are the nominal Russian papers lawful?
:08:43. > :08:48.There are no legal problems whatsoever. Absolutely within the
:08:49. > :08:50.rules. Newcastle-under-Lyme, just up the
:08:51. > :08:53.road? My house is three miles away from
:08:54. > :08:57.where we are now. I had never hidden the fact that I wasn't born here,
:08:58. > :09:01.but I hope you'll forgive me, that is not something I had much say
:09:02. > :09:05.over. I've that in the area for 13 years, my daughter goes to local
:09:06. > :09:11.school, she was born at the hospital. My wife has worked in the
:09:12. > :09:16.city. I've worked in the city. Paul has referenced the other local MPs.
:09:17. > :09:20.They came here because they wanted to help the city. I live here
:09:21. > :09:25.because I want to help the properties. I believe Paul this is a
:09:26. > :09:30.pit stop on his way to Parliament. This is a means turnover him. He has
:09:31. > :09:35.showed no interest in Stone before, now he is.
:09:36. > :09:45.You name all the six towns? Only two are in this area.
:09:46. > :09:58.HE NAMES THE TOWNS. He did it. There is a sense of
:09:59. > :10:02.warfare year. Places say that investment goes to other towns.
:10:03. > :10:06.There is tension? I have already been delivered new
:10:07. > :10:13.locally. I been delivering as part of this constituency for six years,
:10:14. > :10:16.delivering as a cabinet member. I am delivering for the city, born and
:10:17. > :10:19.bred locally, got married in Stoke-on-Trent, lived in the city
:10:20. > :10:22.all my life. As we knew the end of this
:10:23. > :10:26.programme, I am going to remind you that the biggest challenge is
:10:27. > :10:32.getting the voters to turn out. Just under half at the General election
:10:33. > :10:37.did not. This is the moment where you guys have to get those guys to
:10:38. > :10:42.the polling booths. What are you going to say to them to get them out
:10:43. > :10:47.of their armchairs, and vote on February 23?
:10:48. > :10:51.I think this election matters more than most, because the world is
:10:52. > :10:54.looking at Stoke. We need to send a clear message that this is a
:10:55. > :10:57.progressive city, where the politics of the far right are not welcome.
:10:58. > :11:11.This by-election could be history making. This could be paving which
:11:12. > :11:15.way the UK is going. We could have a hard Brexit, if we vote for the
:11:16. > :11:21.Liberal Democrats, we will have another say on which way we want to
:11:22. > :11:26.go. The town was already over the
:11:27. > :11:30.referendum, the town is engaged. I'm the only true Brexiteer standing in
:11:31. > :11:34.a selection, hopefully they will vote Ukip. One word we're getting on
:11:35. > :11:37.the doorsteps is change. If you don't go out and vote for the Ukip
:11:38. > :11:40.adds it to get me a elected, nothing will change.
:11:41. > :11:44.I would say to local people, they need to think carefully about how
:11:45. > :11:48.they vote. I would say we need a strong local voice to stand up for
:11:49. > :11:54.Stoke-on-Trent. At came here to make my family, Poole -- Paul Kenya to
:11:55. > :11:59.make his name. I want to be a strong voice in Parliament.
:12:00. > :12:03.This is about sending a strong message that the referendum result
:12:04. > :12:07.must be respected, I am backing Theresa May's plan to mention that
:12:08. > :12:12.result is delivered successfully. An overarching thought now, anyway,
:12:13. > :12:19.you all a you're going to when Matt. How do you think this is going to
:12:20. > :12:23.impact on life across the country? I think it is great empire
:12:24. > :12:27.significantly. It is an important election, particularly for
:12:28. > :12:33.Stoke-on-Trent. Making sure that someone is voted that is born and
:12:34. > :12:36.bred is important. I think this will show that the
:12:37. > :12:39.Labour Party is the particle standard for working people in this
:12:40. > :12:44.country. It will stick the assessment of the
:12:45. > :12:51.core if I win mag. -- win. Things will change quickly.
:12:52. > :13:00.And should people will be listening where other by-elections happen.
:13:01. > :13:09.This by-election is going to pave the direction of the UK's future.
:13:10. > :13:12.We think it will drive through building infrastructure to make this
:13:13. > :13:19.a greener city and the city were better jobs.
:13:20. > :13:21.My thanks to all the candidates here and the staff at Staffordshire
:13:22. > :13:25.University for making us welcome. This debate may be at an end,
:13:26. > :13:28.but the campaign is far from over. There will be another
:13:29. > :13:30.BBC by-election debate this Thursday evening at 7pm
:13:31. > :13:35.on BBC Radio Stoke. Before we go, a reminder
:13:36. > :13:37.that there's no We'll be back in two weeks' time,
:13:38. > :13:44.on Sunday the 26th of February. By then we'll know who's been
:13:45. > :13:48.elected to be the new MP For now though, goodbye,
:13:49. > :14:08.and have very good afternoon. The staff are losing -
:14:09. > :14:14.they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover
:14:15. > :14:48.to reveal the real cost OK, everyone, have you got
:14:49. > :14:51.your bamboo sticks?