:00:37. > :00:39.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:43.She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,
:00:44. > :00:56.After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.
:00:57. > :00:58.With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,
:00:59. > :01:02.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.
:01:03. > :01:06.NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission
:01:07. > :01:10.impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,
:01:11. > :01:13.unless hospitals are given more cash this year.
:01:14. > :01:23.In the Midlands, a proposal of Providers joins me live.
:01:24. > :01:28.marriage, eating your MP who want marriage, eating your MP who want
:01:29. > :01:38.All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking
:01:39. > :01:41.to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg
:01:42. > :01:43.from his party's spring conference in York.
:01:44. > :01:48.With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,
:01:49. > :01:49.three of the country's top political commentators:
:01:50. > :01:55.Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:56. > :01:57.They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.
:01:58. > :02:00.So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.
:02:01. > :02:06.As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,
:02:07. > :02:09.the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum
:02:10. > :02:13.on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts
:02:14. > :02:17.to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key
:02:18. > :02:22.budget measure just one week after announcing it.
:02:23. > :02:23.Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week
:02:24. > :02:40.Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First
:02:41. > :02:42.Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.
:02:43. > :02:45.She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK
:02:46. > :02:49.By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's
:02:50. > :02:51.future will be decided, not just by me, the
:02:52. > :02:52.Scottish Government, or the
:02:53. > :02:55.SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.
:02:56. > :03:05.Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject
:03:06. > :03:08.amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to
:03:09. > :03:23.The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned
:03:24. > :03:24.attempts to change it and it becomes law.
:03:25. > :03:31.But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.
:03:32. > :03:34.Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.
:03:35. > :03:50.We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the
:03:51. > :03:52.We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling
:03:53. > :04:03.the planned rise in National Insurance for
:04:04. > :04:05.the self-employed announced the budget.
:04:06. > :04:06.It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.
:04:07. > :04:09.The trend towards greater self-employment does create a
:04:10. > :04:12.We will bring forward further proposals
:04:13. > :04:14.but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this
:04:15. > :04:18.It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.
:04:19. > :04:21.By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues
:04:22. > :04:25.fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax
:04:26. > :04:34.Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the
:04:35. > :04:37.Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending
:04:38. > :04:39.But that's not what the Prime Minister
:04:40. > :04:46.Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a
:04:47. > :04:51.We should be working together, not pulling apart.
:04:52. > :04:53.We should be working together to get that
:04:54. > :04:54.right deal for Scotland, that
:04:55. > :04:59.So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and
:05:00. > :05:02.so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.
:05:03. > :05:05.Friday and time for the faithful to gather.
:05:06. > :05:06.SNP activists at their spring conference
:05:07. > :05:17.Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister
:05:18. > :05:21.promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.
:05:22. > :05:23.At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly
:05:24. > :05:30.I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The
:05:31. > :05:32.Evening Standard and, you know, with so many
:05:33. > :05:33.big issues in our world what
:05:34. > :05:39.good analysis, great news journalism.
:05:40. > :05:44.It's a really important time for good journalism that The
:05:45. > :05:45.Evening Standard is going to provide.
:05:46. > :05:52.There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals
:05:53. > :05:57.Under my proposals we keep the Barnett
:05:58. > :06:01.Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the
:06:02. > :06:05.and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.
:06:06. > :06:08.And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the
:06:09. > :06:26.What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,
:06:27. > :06:30.Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign
:06:31. > :06:33.of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the
:06:34. > :06:41.events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with
:06:42. > :06:45.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy
:06:46. > :06:50.periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and
:06:51. > :06:55.try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.
:06:56. > :06:59.Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or
:07:00. > :07:02.so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily
:07:03. > :07:07.the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel
:07:08. > :07:10.more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential
:07:11. > :07:14.drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your
:07:15. > :07:18.original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic
:07:19. > :07:23.quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory
:07:24. > :07:27.backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school
:07:28. > :07:31.funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will
:07:32. > :07:35.get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.
:07:36. > :07:40.Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister
:07:41. > :07:45.said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime
:07:46. > :07:49.Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done
:07:50. > :07:54.quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in
:07:55. > :07:57.frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,
:07:58. > :08:01.OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has
:08:02. > :08:04.already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with
:08:05. > :08:08.Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle
:08:09. > :08:13.for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality
:08:14. > :08:17.bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same
:08:18. > :08:20.time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge
:08:21. > :08:26.to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and
:08:27. > :08:32.Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it
:08:33. > :08:38.reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is
:08:39. > :08:41.over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is
:08:42. > :08:45.how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is
:08:46. > :08:48.not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a
:08:49. > :08:53.normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more
:08:54. > :08:58.mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible
:08:59. > :09:01.workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to
:09:02. > :09:06.call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she
:09:07. > :09:09.tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a
:09:10. > :09:13.second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the
:09:14. > :09:17.rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this
:09:18. > :09:21.week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to
:09:22. > :09:26.her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She
:09:27. > :09:30.expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for
:09:31. > :09:36.her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows
:09:37. > :09:41.66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off
:09:42. > :09:46.with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second
:09:47. > :09:49.referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined
:09:50. > :09:52.with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her
:09:53. > :09:56.calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,
:09:57. > :10:01.I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your
:10:02. > :10:05.desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a
:10:06. > :10:08.fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak
:10:09. > :10:14.opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most
:10:15. > :10:18.daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I
:10:19. > :10:22.think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an
:10:23. > :10:24.election. I don't think she has thought about how you would
:10:25. > :10:29.manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the
:10:30. > :10:35.energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning
:10:36. > :10:39.the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the
:10:40. > :10:43.small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.
:10:44. > :10:47.Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be
:10:48. > :10:51.difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of
:10:52. > :10:55.going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't
:10:56. > :10:59.and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which
:11:00. > :11:01.is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as
:11:02. > :11:05.commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but
:11:06. > :11:10.they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in
:11:11. > :11:12.unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because
:11:13. > :11:16.she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through
:11:17. > :11:20.Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an
:11:21. > :11:24.early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write
:11:25. > :11:29.a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's
:11:30. > :11:33.box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.
:11:34. > :11:37.The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may
:11:38. > :11:40.replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an
:11:41. > :11:45.election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself
:11:46. > :11:46.you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall
:11:47. > :11:48.see. So if Theresa May did go
:11:49. > :11:50.for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns
:11:51. > :12:01.and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we
:12:02. > :12:03.have just been talking about, executed one of the most
:12:04. > :12:07.embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a
:12:08. > :12:11.torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still
:12:12. > :12:16.so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an
:12:17. > :12:19.early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing
:12:20. > :12:23.ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that
:12:24. > :12:27.we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only
:12:28. > :12:33.challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative
:12:34. > :12:40.for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,
:12:41. > :12:43.would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't
:12:44. > :12:46.want this government to be in power so of course if there is an
:12:47. > :12:50.opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a
:12:51. > :12:55.better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course
:12:56. > :13:00.we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote
:13:01. > :13:04.in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an
:13:05. > :13:08.opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in
:13:09. > :13:12.government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with
:13:13. > :13:16.the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very
:13:17. > :13:19.seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but
:13:20. > :13:24.would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to
:13:25. > :13:27.be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to
:13:28. > :13:31.bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the
:13:32. > :13:35.British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together
:13:36. > :13:39.Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a
:13:40. > :13:44.General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance
:13:45. > :13:48.of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an
:13:49. > :13:52.early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?
:13:53. > :13:56.It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to
:13:57. > :13:59.dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories
:14:00. > :14:04.in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that
:14:05. > :14:06.opportunity to put that case to the British people.
:14:07. > :14:15.Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all
:14:16. > :14:17.but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?
:14:18. > :14:20.How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of
:14:21. > :14:25.money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the
:14:26. > :14:30.Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it
:14:31. > :14:38.inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to
:14:39. > :14:43.build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We
:14:44. > :14:47.have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are
:14:48. > :14:50.taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian
:14:51. > :14:54.Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the
:14:55. > :14:58.Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the
:14:59. > :15:01.support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the
:15:02. > :15:06.electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready
:15:07. > :15:10.for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got
:15:11. > :15:15.your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the
:15:16. > :15:20.shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if
:15:21. > :15:22.there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these
:15:23. > :15:28.things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its
:15:29. > :15:33.annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates
:15:34. > :15:36.policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last
:15:37. > :15:40.Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a
:15:41. > :15:45.fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much
:15:46. > :15:49.extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going
:15:50. > :15:53.to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.
:15:54. > :15:58.I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We
:15:59. > :16:03.have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out
:16:04. > :16:07.Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there
:16:08. > :16:11.hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war
:16:12. > :16:17.footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,
:16:18. > :16:21.can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under
:16:22. > :16:28.a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.
:16:29. > :16:31.And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an
:16:32. > :16:35.election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th
:16:36. > :16:41.of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't
:16:42. > :16:46.having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy
:16:47. > :16:50.development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think
:16:51. > :16:53.you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll
:16:54. > :16:59.ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the
:17:00. > :17:03.Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in
:17:04. > :17:07.safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long
:17:08. > :17:12.does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the
:17:13. > :17:16.Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour
:17:17. > :17:20.Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party
:17:21. > :17:26.merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in
:17:27. > :17:31.case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be
:17:32. > :17:35.talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation
:17:36. > :17:40.about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually
:17:41. > :17:43.for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting
:17:44. > :17:47.with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the
:17:48. > :17:53.prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,
:17:54. > :17:57.given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its
:17:58. > :18:01.mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be
:18:02. > :18:07.about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17
:18:08. > :18:11.behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as
:18:12. > :18:14.an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you
:18:15. > :18:20.still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?
:18:21. > :18:27.These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was
:18:28. > :18:32.settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.
:18:33. > :18:36.Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it
:18:37. > :18:42.is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it
:18:43. > :18:46.is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will
:18:47. > :18:50.you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future
:18:51. > :19:00.looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,
:19:01. > :19:02.where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit
:19:03. > :19:05.cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make
:19:06. > :19:08.sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to
:19:09. > :19:11.fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to
:19:12. > :19:18.make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour
:19:19. > :19:24.returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.
:19:25. > :19:26.And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring
:19:27. > :19:28.conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.
:19:29. > :19:36.Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps
:19:37. > :19:42.Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In
:19:43. > :19:50.what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not
:19:51. > :19:56.saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim
:19:57. > :20:00.Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware
:20:01. > :20:06.what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was
:20:07. > :20:13.arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound
:20:14. > :20:18.supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as
:20:19. > :20:22.Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so
:20:23. > :20:26.ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,
:20:27. > :20:31.Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more
:20:32. > :20:35.isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach
:20:36. > :20:40.that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans
:20:41. > :20:49.to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,
:20:50. > :20:54.Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,
:20:55. > :20:59.nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In
:21:00. > :21:05.what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has
:21:06. > :21:10.interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote
:21:11. > :21:15.you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over
:21:16. > :21:19.the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have
:21:20. > :21:23.to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was
:21:24. > :21:28.in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not
:21:29. > :21:34.right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we
:21:35. > :21:41.have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald
:21:42. > :21:46.Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different
:21:47. > :21:52.view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not
:21:53. > :21:58.antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not
:21:59. > :22:01.aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the
:22:02. > :22:07.British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by
:22:08. > :22:15.choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing
:22:16. > :22:19.so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self
:22:20. > :22:23.harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the
:22:24. > :22:28.threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so
:22:29. > :22:33.ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view
:22:34. > :22:42.speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not
:22:43. > :22:46.challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs
:22:47. > :22:51.that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring
:22:52. > :22:56.conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long
:22:57. > :23:01.time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a
:23:02. > :23:06.realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards
:23:07. > :23:13.that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a
:23:14. > :23:17.realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want
:23:18. > :23:22.that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the
:23:23. > :23:27.recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People
:23:28. > :23:31.often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election
:23:32. > :23:35.we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we
:23:36. > :23:44.have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in
:23:45. > :23:50.Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way
:23:51. > :23:59.seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted
:24:00. > :24:03.for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling
:24:04. > :24:06.increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party
:24:07. > :24:10.because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable
:24:11. > :24:16.from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk
:24:17. > :24:21.on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite
:24:22. > :24:25.them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across
:24:26. > :24:30.parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster
:24:31. > :24:34.village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,
:24:35. > :24:37.inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people
:24:38. > :24:49.on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the
:24:50. > :24:54.ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence
:24:55. > :24:58.to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be
:24:59. > :25:07.thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we
:25:08. > :25:11.are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the
:25:12. > :25:15.referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated
:25:16. > :25:19.ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something
:25:20. > :25:24.unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can
:25:25. > :25:35.guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the
:25:36. > :25:40.British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work
:25:41. > :25:44.out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she
:25:45. > :25:50.will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new
:25:51. > :25:55.trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of
:25:56. > :25:59.that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there
:26:00. > :26:04.will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use
:26:05. > :26:11.this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling
:26:12. > :26:15.back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or
:26:16. > :26:20.thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were
:26:21. > :26:27.promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this
:26:28. > :26:31.glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the
:26:32. > :26:35.world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of
:26:36. > :26:39.years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to
:26:40. > :26:43.take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of
:26:44. > :26:51.quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always
:26:52. > :26:58.welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is
:26:59. > :27:00.certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you
:27:01. > :27:07.spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or
:27:08. > :27:14.spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper
:27:15. > :27:21.editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's
:27:22. > :27:27.feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law
:27:28. > :27:31.against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will
:27:32. > :27:39.again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also
:27:40. > :27:43.wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in
:27:44. > :27:48.the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his
:27:49. > :27:54.self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on
:27:55. > :27:57.a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you
:27:58. > :28:02.will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.
:28:03. > :28:04.Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been
:28:05. > :28:07.warning the health service needs more money to help it meet
:28:08. > :28:10.But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered
:28:11. > :28:12.no immediate relief, and today the head of
:28:13. > :28:14.the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds
:28:15. > :28:17.of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency
:28:18. > :28:18.care and planned operations, unless the Government
:28:19. > :28:26.Warnings over funding are not exactly new.
:28:27. > :28:29.Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,
:28:30. > :28:33.published his plan for the future of the health service.
:28:34. > :28:36.In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England
:28:37. > :28:39.would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.
:28:40. > :28:42.To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money
:28:43. > :28:46.from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,
:28:47. > :28:49.and that the health service could account for the rest by making
:28:50. > :28:56.The Government says it's given the health service more than what it
:28:57. > :28:58.asked for, and that NHS in England will have received
:28:59. > :29:04.That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair
:29:05. > :29:06.of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more
:29:07. > :29:09.like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget
:29:10. > :29:15.have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.
:29:16. > :29:18.Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished
:29:19. > :29:21.the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts
:29:22. > :29:23.from the Government, the NHS is likely to record
:29:24. > :29:28.Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A
:29:29. > :29:30.departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being
:29:31. > :29:38.This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care
:29:39. > :29:42.but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn
:29:43. > :29:45.that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked
:29:46. > :29:51.And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS
:29:52. > :29:56.Providers in England, Chris Hopson.
:29:57. > :30:03.Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra
:30:04. > :30:08.money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part
:30:09. > :30:11.of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a
:30:12. > :30:16.bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so
:30:17. > :30:19.on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18
:30:20. > :30:23.billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising
:30:24. > :30:27.more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that
:30:28. > :30:32.is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS
:30:33. > :30:36.knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are
:30:37. > :30:43.somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.
:30:44. > :30:51.Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22
:30:52. > :30:56.billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year
:30:57. > :31:02.and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25
:31:03. > :31:06.billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the
:31:07. > :31:10.2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to
:31:11. > :31:15.which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period
:31:16. > :31:19.and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen
:31:20. > :31:25.before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come
:31:26. > :31:29.onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some
:31:30. > :31:33.extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument
:31:34. > :31:38.about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this
:31:39. > :31:42.extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?
:31:43. > :31:47.Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward
:31:48. > :31:51.view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the
:31:52. > :31:54.centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms
:31:55. > :31:58.length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was
:31:59. > :32:02.consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that
:32:03. > :32:08.the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS
:32:09. > :32:11.where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every
:32:12. > :32:15.year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able
:32:16. > :32:21.to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding
:32:22. > :32:25.increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release
:32:26. > :32:30.we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would
:32:31. > :32:36.not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in
:32:37. > :32:39.other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts
:32:40. > :32:44.Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.
:32:45. > :32:51.Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.
:32:52. > :32:54.How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we
:32:55. > :32:58.estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you
:32:59. > :33:04.clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour
:33:05. > :33:08.A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and
:33:09. > :33:13.operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900
:33:14. > :33:17.million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you
:33:18. > :33:22.would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of
:33:23. > :33:25.those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion
:33:26. > :33:30.on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5
:33:31. > :33:33.billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is
:33:34. > :33:39.important we should make an important distinction about the NHS
:33:40. > :33:42.versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour
:33:43. > :33:47.government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return
:33:48. > :33:51.for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,
:33:52. > :33:55.the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery
:33:56. > :33:59.we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would
:34:00. > :34:03.want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for
:34:04. > :34:08.it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest
:34:09. > :34:12.financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going
:34:13. > :34:17.up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand
:34:18. > :34:22.go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I
:34:23. > :34:25.think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going
:34:26. > :34:30.to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I
:34:31. > :34:35.think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS
:34:36. > :34:38.as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have
:34:39. > :34:44.got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36
:34:45. > :34:49.office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to
:34:50. > :34:53.1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know
:34:54. > :34:58.in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the
:34:59. > :35:02.last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement
:35:03. > :35:09.gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25
:35:10. > :35:12.billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But
:35:13. > :35:15.having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where
:35:16. > :35:21.there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it
:35:22. > :35:26.for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its
:35:27. > :35:29.contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as
:35:30. > :35:34.efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for
:35:35. > :35:38.you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise
:35:39. > :35:42.those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would
:35:43. > :35:46.go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a
:35:47. > :35:49.deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the
:35:50. > :35:55.moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release
:35:56. > :36:06.land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts
:36:07. > :36:08.which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous
:36:09. > :36:10.organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.
:36:11. > :36:10.Have you raised that with the government?
:36:11. > :36:23.Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard
:36:24. > :36:28.somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big
:36:29. > :36:32.salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for
:36:33. > :36:35.the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more
:36:36. > :36:39.money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being
:36:40. > :36:44.properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And
:36:45. > :36:52.yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in
:36:53. > :36:54.a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I
:36:55. > :36:57.have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight
:36:58. > :37:00.in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,
:37:01. > :37:03.mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most
:37:04. > :37:08.complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to
:37:09. > :37:11.be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we
:37:12. > :37:15.should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid
:37:16. > :37:20.are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion
:37:21. > :37:27.a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There
:37:28. > :37:31.was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the
:37:32. > :37:34.problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need
:37:35. > :37:38.and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having
:37:39. > :37:43.to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem
:37:44. > :37:48.and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those
:37:49. > :37:53.amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas
:37:54. > :37:57.is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you
:37:58. > :38:01.could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,
:38:02. > :38:06.what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government
:38:07. > :38:11.has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing
:38:12. > :38:15.funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can
:38:16. > :38:20.I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the
:38:21. > :38:26.first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we
:38:27. > :38:31.can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work
:38:32. > :38:35.in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very
:38:36. > :38:38.important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the
:38:39. > :38:42.financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being
:38:43. > :38:46.asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of
:38:47. > :38:47.time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.
:38:48. > :38:49.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:50. > :38:52.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:53. > :39:04.Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.
:39:05. > :39:12.Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon want out, while the Shropshire MP
:39:13. > :39:13.Owen Paterson wants two neighbouring local council leaders
:39:14. > :39:20.to tie the knot - a marriage made in heaven.
:39:21. > :39:23.But is Mr Paterson really plotting not a wedding, but a funeral?
:39:24. > :39:25.Talking of the attraction of opposites, our guests
:39:26. > :39:29.today are Ruth Smeeth, Labour MP for Stoke North.
:39:30. > :39:31.She supported Remain, in a city that voted
:39:32. > :39:44.And Daniel Kawczynszi, Conservative MP for Shrewsbury and Atcham,
:39:45. > :39:49.backed the victorious Leave campaign.
:39:50. > :39:56.I'll be asking one of their three Midlands MEPs.
:39:57. > :40:01.We begin, though, with that record ?70,000 fine imposed
:40:02. > :40:06.by the Electoral Commission on the Conservative Party,
:40:07. > :40:10.for inaccurate reporting of their 2015 general election expenses.
:40:11. > :40:14.This follows confirmation that Gloucestershire and Staffordshire
:40:15. > :40:17.are among 12 police forces which have sent files
:40:18. > :40:20.to the Crown Prosecution Service over allegations that the party
:40:21. > :40:23.misreported its spending on its election battle bus.
:40:24. > :40:28.It ferried party activists into key marginal seats during the campaign.
:40:29. > :40:31.The question now is whether or not the party used the more generous
:40:32. > :40:33.spending limits for national campaigns, to gain
:40:34. > :40:45.an unfair advantage in individual constituencies.
:40:46. > :40:52.Daniel, campaigning for broader participation in elections groups
:40:53. > :40:58.accuse your party of buying the last general election. I think all
:40:59. > :41:03.parties have been fined by the Electoral Commission. Labour did.
:41:04. > :41:10.but yours is unprecedented, the maximum fine. Yes, all parties were
:41:11. > :41:14.fined but I think the battle bus didn't cut additional costs and the
:41:15. > :41:18.allegation was that they were not properly submitted by the
:41:19. > :41:22.constituency that was hosting the battle bus. I welcome this
:41:23. > :41:26.investigation in the sense that it is very important for future general
:41:27. > :41:31.elections that there needs to be much greater clarification to the
:41:32. > :41:35.constituency agents on the ground, what they are responsible for and
:41:36. > :41:38.what they have to declare and I think this will have to be
:41:39. > :41:42.implemented very vigorously in the next general election. It's for the
:41:43. > :41:48.Crown Prosecution Service to decide whether there is a case to answer in
:41:49. > :41:55.terms of police files. Would you welcome the prospect of more
:41:56. > :41:58.by-elections? I don't think any politician likes by-elections by
:41:59. > :42:02.clearly there is an independent process instigated by the Electoral
:42:03. > :42:06.Commission and the police are involved so we have to wait and see
:42:07. > :42:11.what the adjudication is. Daniel pointed out that both Labour and the
:42:12. > :42:17.Liberal Democrats have been fined over electoral expenses. Is that why
:42:18. > :42:21.Labour have been relatively muted over the Tory embarrassment? I don't
:42:22. > :42:27.think that's the case at all. This is about trust in politics. This
:42:28. > :42:32.isn't about misreporting and forgetting to include some invoices,
:42:33. > :42:38.this is about whether people knowingly submitted dodgy election
:42:39. > :42:43.expenses or not and it's ?70,000 on a big concern about this is not the
:42:44. > :42:46.amount, not what happens in terms of the individual Members of
:42:47. > :42:52.Parliament, but whether we can have trust and faith in our politicians.
:42:53. > :42:53.I spent every day trying to ensure that we do. We need to ensure there
:42:54. > :42:56.is a level playing field where is a level playing field where
:42:57. > :42:58.people can campaign properly and that we have trust.
:42:59. > :43:00.Let's move on, now, to those two divorce petitions.
:43:01. > :43:02.Nicola Sturgeon wants to take Scotland out of the UK,
:43:03. > :43:04.because Theresa May is about to begin proceedings
:43:05. > :43:07.to take the UK out of the EU, but only after yet more
:43:08. > :43:14.A local Tory defied his party to vote against the Government.
:43:15. > :43:19.While one of our Labour contingent defied his, to vote with it.
:43:20. > :43:22.Nick Watson has been making sense of it all.
:43:23. > :43:29.Nine months after the referendum, Parliament finally votes
:43:30. > :43:39.A Labour amendment to force a vote on the terms of Brexit was rejected,
:43:40. > :43:42.as was a bid to amend the bill to protect the rights of residency
:43:43. > :43:49.It was defeated despite support from Cheltenham MP Alex Chalk,
:43:50. > :43:56.one of two Tories to defy the Government on the issue.
:43:57. > :44:00.Wolverhampton South West Labour MP Rob Marris was also in defiant mood.
:44:01. > :44:02.A Remainer, he joined the small band of Labour Leavers
:44:03. > :44:06.to back the Government against his party's line.
:44:07. > :44:09.If the Government continues to drag its heels on this important issue...
:44:10. > :44:13.Emma Reynolds, his colleague from across the city,
:44:14. > :44:15.was worried about two years of uncertainty affecting EU
:44:16. > :44:21.nationals over here and UK nationals over there.
:44:22. > :44:23.But eurosceptic veteran Sir Bill Cash had a warning
:44:24. > :44:29.This issue is not about parliamentary sovereignty, in fact,
:44:30. > :44:34.it is about undermining a decision that has been made by a referendum
:44:35. > :44:38.of the British people, which was itself conferred
:44:39. > :44:46.That is what we need to concentrate on.
:44:47. > :44:49.After being backed in the Commons the bill made it through the Lords
:44:50. > :44:53.All seemed set for the PM to pull the trigger on Tuesday morning,
:44:54. > :44:56.but those plans were put on hold after Nicola Sturgeon announced
:44:57. > :45:03.she would be seeking a second referendum on Scottish independence.
:45:04. > :45:06.And we're also joined here today by Brexit Bill himself.
:45:07. > :45:08.Bill Etheridge, Ukip MEP for the West Midlands,
:45:09. > :45:22.One of the things that struck me about the events of the last few
:45:23. > :45:30.days is how fast things are moving forward and how little apart Ukip is
:45:31. > :45:36.having in all this -- little a part. We rolled the rock to the top of the
:45:37. > :45:41.mountain. 2016 was your year and it's gone. No, we achieved what we
:45:42. > :45:44.wanted to do. I'm delighted, it's quite emotional to see this
:45:45. > :45:48.happening, it's something I wanted to see all of my life. We move onto
:45:49. > :45:55.Ukipnext role. Is that the case? I Ukipnext role. Is that the case? I
:45:56. > :46:04.get the sense that especially after the poor performance, there is a
:46:05. > :46:09.leadership vacuum in Ukip and a lack of identity. We got a new leader who
:46:10. > :46:13.is just settling into it. I congratulated Labour on winning
:46:14. > :46:17.Stoke, we didn't put in the kind of performance we expected to and let
:46:18. > :46:21.yourself down. It doesn't mean we're finished, it means we learn from it
:46:22. > :46:32.and come back stronger. Anyone who writes as is sorely mistaken. --
:46:33. > :46:38.write us off. The less said about the man in question who was to be
:46:39. > :46:41.suspended, the better. It's better if we get people elected who are
:46:42. > :46:50.genuinely interested in supporting Ukip values and promoting our party
:46:51. > :46:57.rather than sneering. The two issues at the heart of the Parliamentary
:46:58. > :47:01.vote on EU nationals over here and EU nationals over their -- UK
:47:02. > :47:09.nationals over there. As someone born in Poland, you must have an
:47:10. > :47:17.interest in this. Yes, and a lot of polish people have criticised me
:47:18. > :47:20.strongly because they think we should unilaterally give EU citizens
:47:21. > :47:29.the right to stay. I feel very strongly about this, that we will
:47:30. > :47:35.we will negotiate for them to stay we will negotiate for them to stay
:47:36. > :47:44.in the UK but we have two negotiate for British citizens' writes to stay
:47:45. > :47:51.in the EU. people know individuals on both sides of this were a very
:47:52. > :47:54.deeply offended. We tried to start this process and Angela Merkel
:47:55. > :48:01.refused to allow us to even talk about it under Article 50 was
:48:02. > :48:05.triggered -- until. What we must never forget about British citizens
:48:06. > :48:09.living in the European Union and to give unilateral right to EU citizens
:48:10. > :48:15.without guaranteeing the rates are British citizens I think would have
:48:16. > :48:21.been completely the wrong message. -- the rights of British citizens.
:48:22. > :48:28.Your voice is relatively little hurt. I voted twice to trigger
:48:29. > :48:33.Article 50. For me, it's about making it work for our constituents
:48:34. > :48:37.and delivering and part of that is ensuring there isn't a spike in hate
:48:38. > :48:39.crime and that my constituents, whether they were born in Europe or
:48:40. > :48:46.not, feel reassured and I've written to everyone of my European
:48:47. > :48:50.constituents to tell them I am there to support them when they feel at
:48:51. > :48:54.their most honourable. We have seen a spike in hate crime in Stoke and I
:48:55. > :48:57.have had people floods to my surgeries and Comite office because
:48:58. > :49:05.they are concerned about what's happening so far meat is about
:49:06. > :49:08.reassurance for them -- come to my office. There are 1 million British
:49:09. > :49:14.people in Spain and we need to ensure their rights are protected as
:49:15. > :49:19.well. Do you have people in Shrewsbury who need reassurance? Yes
:49:20. > :49:28.and we give them reassurance. The British way as always to be fair to
:49:29. > :49:31.people and they would be astounded if anyone was forced to leave. We
:49:32. > :49:35.will go the extra mile to make sure people who have come here illegally
:49:36. > :49:41.come here legally from the European come here legally from the European
:49:42. > :49:49.Union are allowed to stay. Well not getting the rates for British
:49:50. > :50:00.citizens, I think it would send the message that we are not prioritising
:50:01. > :50:03.our own citizens -- rights. We don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable
:50:04. > :50:09.about the situation. It is a realistic and bright outlook. I'm
:50:10. > :50:12.happy right now because from the bottom of my heart I think this is
:50:13. > :50:16.best for everyone in the UK and those who have come here and want to
:50:17. > :50:19.contribute to the UK and love our country, great, I want them to be as
:50:20. > :50:24.excited as everyone else because this is a wonderful chance. the next
:50:25. > :50:26.European election in 2019 is just around the corner and you're not
:50:27. > :50:32.going to be part of it so what do you do next? What is a life after
:50:33. > :50:36.the European Parliament? What I know I'm going to be doing is giving it a
:50:37. > :50:40.good shot in 2020 in Ukip colours if selected to stand for the
:50:41. > :50:47.constituency and if I don't get in, maybe I'll go back to selling steel!
:50:48. > :50:53.a quick final thought about Scotland and Nicola Sturgeon which adds a
:50:54. > :50:55.competition to the whole thing. I hope we can agree on this but the
:50:56. > :51:01.way in which Nicola Sturgeon is playing politics with us is
:51:02. > :51:04.absolutely outrageous and destabilises the United Kingdom.
:51:05. > :51:09.Nobody should be voting on Brexit until it has been embedded and until
:51:10. > :51:14.we know what the relationship is. I think she's being totally
:51:15. > :51:18.irresponsible. I think this is about the union. IME proud British person
:51:19. > :51:23.and on that basis the fact she has more faith in Brussels than
:51:24. > :51:26.Westminster is a disgrace. I am totally unimpressed by her actions
:51:27. > :51:31.and I will be fighting for the union. She would rather be
:51:32. > :51:33.controlled from Brussels than remain in the United Kingdom and that is an
:51:34. > :51:37.extraordinary position. Let's talk now about
:51:38. > :51:44.the marriage proposal. The Shropshire MP Owen Paterson
:51:45. > :51:46.wants a couple of neighbouring local And it's certainly not
:51:47. > :51:54.a classic love match. Our political reporter
:51:55. > :51:56.Joanne Gallacher has been talking to the would-be suitors,
:51:57. > :51:58.in this "chalk and cheese" affair. Is this the future -
:51:59. > :52:09.marrying up council services between Shropshire
:52:10. > :52:12.and Telford and Wrekin? One big local authority
:52:13. > :52:14.for the whole county. During cash-strapped times,
:52:15. > :52:16.one of the county's leading MPs thinks it could save taxpayers up
:52:17. > :52:21.to ?20 million a year. You can't keep these councils
:52:22. > :52:27.going as a vanity project Why should inhabitants of Shropshire
:52:28. > :52:32.or Telford and Wrekin be lumbered with an unnecessary,
:52:33. > :52:34.inefficient and expensive Supporters say it could
:52:35. > :52:40.be a perfect union - sharing services, one chief
:52:41. > :52:42.executive, one council headquarters. Shropshire Council's Conservative
:52:43. > :52:44.Leader is willing to accept an invitation to the party,
:52:45. > :52:50.but he's not fully committed. We're working very closely
:52:51. > :52:52.with Telford and Wrekin at the moment, and I think that's
:52:53. > :52:55.the best opportunity I think while the argument
:52:56. > :53:02.about merging goes along, that only inhibits our ability
:53:03. > :53:06.to work together. But Labour-run Telford and Wrekin,
:53:07. > :53:09.is refusing to be wooed. People who think we should go back
:53:10. > :53:17.to the Saxon times and have one county council for the whole
:53:18. > :53:20.of the region. Telford is known as the
:53:21. > :53:22.birthplace of industry. Historically, it's a Labour
:53:23. > :53:24.stronghold, so how do people here feel about hooking up
:53:25. > :53:29.with the more rural Shropshire? The bigger they are,
:53:30. > :53:32.the less you get done. There's less cooperation
:53:33. > :53:36.between anybody. I suspect together, at least we've
:53:37. > :53:40.not got two lots of people arguing. Too big, the area would
:53:41. > :53:46.be too big, I think. Up the river is Shrewsbury,
:53:47. > :53:48.the market town at the heart of Shropshire, but do people living
:53:49. > :53:51.here think they have enough in common with the more
:53:52. > :53:55.urban Telford and Wrekin? It probably wouldn't work
:53:56. > :53:57.because Telford and Wrekin, with the number of people living
:53:58. > :54:00.in that region, would probably be a drain on the assets
:54:01. > :54:03.of the Shropshire and Shrewsbury communities, so Frankeley
:54:04. > :54:08.I'd be against it. If there is something that suits
:54:09. > :54:11.all people, I'm all for it. If they want to do
:54:12. > :54:13.it, they'll do it! Communities and Local Government
:54:14. > :54:23.Secretary Sajid Javid doesn't want to get involved in the issue
:54:24. > :54:26.at this stage. He says any decision on a link up
:54:27. > :54:31.needs to be taken at a local level. "Marry in haste, repent
:54:32. > :54:34.in leisure" is the old adage, and it seems there's no need to send
:54:35. > :54:56.out the invitations for this No wedding bells quite yet Daniel,
:54:57. > :55:02.but will you be standing there with a fistful of confetti when the big
:55:03. > :55:05.day comes? Owen Paterson and I have been pushing for a merger for many
:55:06. > :55:10.years and I'm delighted you are sharing the necessity with your
:55:11. > :55:14.audience. It's not just a question about value for money which
:55:15. > :55:18.taxpayers but my experience as an MP for the last 12 years is when you go
:55:19. > :55:24.collectively as one county to lobby Government with all the MPs behind,
:55:25. > :55:27.you are much more likely to succeed in getting the things you need for
:55:28. > :55:33.your community and our county has been cut in half artificially and we
:55:34. > :55:36.are actually fighting one another for resources, rather than going
:55:37. > :55:42.into Government collectively to fight for the whole of Shropshire.
:55:43. > :55:46.Whether you live in Telford or Shrewsbury, it is all one county and
:55:47. > :55:53.we should have won council. a similar argument if you take it to
:55:54. > :55:55.extremes could be made for taking unitary stalk and to cheer
:55:56. > :56:03.Staffordshire and putting them together. -- Stoke. That wouldn't
:56:04. > :56:06.work. It's about people who deliver our local public services but we've
:56:07. > :56:11.also seen top-down restructures by this Government. We sought in the
:56:12. > :56:16.NHS, it costs a fortune and delivered nothing. -- saw it the
:56:17. > :56:21.NHS. It's about investing money and making sure local councils are
:56:22. > :56:28.funded. That's how we deliver better public services. Telford, Shropshire
:56:29. > :56:34.are different areas, one has a Labour authority and one is
:56:35. > :56:39.agricultural. Separate identities. Under the Labour Government, we had
:56:40. > :56:42.all the districts abolished to create one authority. This is now
:56:43. > :56:54.the logical next step to make sure our county has won council -- one.
:56:55. > :57:01.Owen Paterson and I think they could save ?20 million a year. We tied
:57:02. > :57:06.independent reports commissioned and information from the House of
:57:07. > :57:10.Commons library. My appeal to the council is at least go through the
:57:11. > :57:14.process of evaluating what savings could take place from the won
:57:15. > :57:19.council. We're getting more money from adult social care services and
:57:20. > :57:27.in these very difficult times of difficult barges and -- budgets, it
:57:28. > :57:35.is about finding better value for money. It is a complex, fragmented
:57:36. > :57:40.system. We are now having a combined authority which is difficult for
:57:41. > :57:44.many people to understand and hold people to account. It really is and
:57:45. > :57:47.people like their current arrangements. I nearly burst in
:57:48. > :57:56.Staffordshire that represents both the city in the county. -- and the
:57:57. > :57:59.county. They like to know who delivers what, how and when but it's
:58:00. > :58:02.also about connection with local councillors and I would worry about
:58:03. > :58:11.that if we started messing around with it.
:58:12. > :58:14.Let's catch-up now with the rest of the political developments making
:58:15. > :58:19.Our round-up in 60 Seconds is brought to us today by Sarah Bishop.
:58:20. > :58:21.Bosses at GCHQ in Cheltenham issued a statement denying
:58:22. > :58:23.they wire-tapped Donald Trump, describing the claims as "nonsense".
:58:24. > :58:25.There was embarrassment for the West Midlands Lib Dem Mayoral
:58:26. > :58:27.hopeful Beverley Nielsen after she was wrongly billed
:58:28. > :58:30.as the Labour candidate on some of her campaign literature,
:58:31. > :58:39.Conservative Mayoral candidate Andy Street launched his manifesto
:58:40. > :58:42.confident that he's in with a good chance of victory.
:58:43. > :58:47.If you look at the last general election, we only need a 4% swing
:58:48. > :58:50.and then we've spent the last six months getting our message out
:58:51. > :58:52.there and the feedback I'm getting is, "Yes,
:58:53. > :58:57.you've got a really well-considered plan."
:58:58. > :59:00.Workers at BMW's Hams Hall engine plant in Warwickshire protested
:59:01. > :59:02.against plans to end their final salary pension scheme,
:59:03. > :59:05.which they say could cost them tens of thousands of pounds.
:59:06. > :59:08.And hundreds marched through the streets of Shrewsbury
:59:09. > :59:10.to protest against cuts to schools funding.
:59:11. > :59:11.Elsewhere, Cotswold MP Geoffrey Clifton-Brown led
:59:12. > :59:21.a delegation of backbench Tories to confront the education secretary.
:59:22. > :59:30.Strong feelings in Daniel's Shrewsbury constituency. Do you
:59:31. > :59:34.share those strong feelings? The funding mechanism has to be changed.
:59:35. > :59:38.We've been lobbying on this for many years because there are parts of
:59:39. > :59:44.Britain that get ?8,000 per pupil and in Shropshire we get ?4000.
:59:45. > :59:46.Certain parts of London and inner-city conurbations get double
:59:47. > :59:53.what we get in Shropshire. It's very in -- important for the funding to
:59:54. > :59:58.be changed. I will raise this issue on the floor of the house. Some get
:59:59. > :00:03.less, some get more, but overall we will get an increase in the budget
:00:04. > :00:08.for Shropshire schools. The consultation is open until the 22nd
:00:09. > :00:11.of March. This is in the final formula but it is very important
:00:12. > :00:15.that we narrow the gap on the differences around the country. and
:00:16. > :00:21.this has been going on under successive Government climb-mac.
:00:22. > :00:25.Lets see what's actually happening. In Stoke-on-Trent is going to be
:00:26. > :00:27.aired percent cut by 2020 under this Government. I've met with
:00:28. > :00:30.headteachers this week were talking headteachers this week were talking
:00:31. > :00:36.to me about how many teachers they are looking to make redundant to
:00:37. > :00:40.restructure. ?400 per child per school in my constituency. It's
:00:41. > :00:43.simply a disgrace. This isn't working and my fear about what
:00:44. > :00:46.happens next is they will look to make further cuts in order to give
:00:47. > :00:52.money to rural areas with cities like mine where we need additional
:00:53. > :00:55.investment in our children so they have every single opportunity
:00:56. > :00:58.available will have those taken away available will have those taken away
:00:59. > :01:09.from them. It's a disgrace what this Government are doing. More money is
:01:10. > :01:20.going into the education budget. More students than ever before are
:01:21. > :01:25.poorer! It is unsustainable and unfair for some areas of the country
:01:26. > :01:26.to get double the funding. Of course some areas need extra help but not
:01:27. > :01:27.double. My thanks to Ruth Smeeth
:01:28. > :01:28.and Daniel Kawczynski. She's opening a Westminster debate,
:01:29. > :01:32.supporting Stoke's bid And remember Coventry and Hereford
:01:33. > :01:44.are bidding for this too. There is no better city in to
:01:45. > :01:45.celebrate British culture than Stoke-on-Trent and I hope everyone
:01:46. > :01:48.will support us. The winner will be declared
:01:49. > :01:51.in December, at the end of Hull's This, though, is where
:01:52. > :01:58.we rejoin Andrew Neil. pricing of these buildings. Thank
:01:59. > :02:03.you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.
:02:04. > :02:06.So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament
:02:07. > :02:10.Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think
:02:11. > :02:14.And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?
:02:15. > :02:23.Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week
:02:24. > :02:33.Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is
:02:34. > :02:37.too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor
:02:38. > :02:42.would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a
:02:43. > :02:45.position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four
:02:46. > :02:49.days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not
:02:50. > :02:52.be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,
:02:53. > :02:55.a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,
:02:56. > :02:58.he's also chairman of While being committed to one day
:02:59. > :03:04.a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -
:03:05. > :03:06.a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic
:03:07. > :03:12.credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,
:03:13. > :03:14.an American thinktank, And finally as a member
:03:15. > :03:21.of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep
:03:22. > :03:28.as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000
:03:29. > :03:40.since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners
:03:41. > :03:43.if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on
:03:44. > :03:47.the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have
:03:48. > :03:53.got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs
:03:54. > :03:57.on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.
:03:58. > :04:01.I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these
:04:02. > :04:06.people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used
:04:07. > :04:10.to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,
:04:11. > :04:15.Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now
:04:16. > :04:19.because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new
:04:20. > :04:23.foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair
:04:24. > :04:29.praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.
:04:30. > :04:33.They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge
:04:34. > :04:39.influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015
:04:40. > :04:43.election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they
:04:44. > :04:47.elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which
:04:48. > :04:52.this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as
:04:53. > :04:58.a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and
:04:59. > :05:03.government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly
:05:04. > :05:07.getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George
:05:08. > :05:12.Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of
:05:13. > :05:16.London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying
:05:17. > :05:22.Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major
:05:23. > :05:26.was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing
:05:27. > :05:31.for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features
:05:32. > :05:38.editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,
:05:39. > :05:41.did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I
:05:42. > :05:45.worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know
:05:46. > :05:49.what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.
:05:50. > :05:53.If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am
:05:54. > :05:57.to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited
:05:58. > :06:02.should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is
:06:03. > :06:06.a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you
:06:07. > :06:09.see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and
:06:10. > :06:12.maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people
:06:13. > :06:18.about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have
:06:19. > :06:23.known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,
:06:24. > :06:28.he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have
:06:29. > :06:32.calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised
:06:33. > :06:36.there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's
:06:37. > :06:40.probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and
:06:41. > :06:45.on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big
:06:46. > :06:50.budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages
:06:51. > :06:56.out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.
:06:57. > :07:01.It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant
:07:02. > :07:07.budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has
:07:08. > :07:10.hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a
:07:11. > :07:17.something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to
:07:18. > :07:20.stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was
:07:21. > :07:24.wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an
:07:25. > :07:29.association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four
:07:30. > :07:32.hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big
:07:33. > :07:39.speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages
:07:40. > :07:44.have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the
:07:45. > :07:49.editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is
:07:50. > :07:52.what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the
:07:53. > :08:02.newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on
:08:03. > :08:04.newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation
:08:05. > :08:13.period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas
:08:14. > :08:16.losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National
:08:17. > :08:23.Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are
:08:24. > :08:28.unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are
:08:29. > :08:33.unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed
:08:34. > :08:37.form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to
:08:38. > :08:41.move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or
:08:42. > :08:46.will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor
:08:47. > :08:51.level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need
:08:52. > :08:55.to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but
:08:56. > :08:58.what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents
:08:59. > :09:02.have been getting letters across the country in England about what this
:09:03. > :09:06.will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a
:09:07. > :09:11.matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and
:09:12. > :09:16.Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the
:09:17. > :09:20.new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more
:09:21. > :09:24.disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are
:09:25. > :09:28.going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already
:09:29. > :09:33.struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller
:09:34. > :09:38.fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,
:09:39. > :09:42.adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is
:09:43. > :09:47.an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the
:09:48. > :09:51.Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy
:09:52. > :09:54.companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so
:09:55. > :09:59.good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put
:10:00. > :10:03.a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was
:10:04. > :10:08.obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the
:10:09. > :10:12.Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap
:10:13. > :10:15.on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus
:10:16. > :10:21.much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this
:10:22. > :10:25.translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That
:10:26. > :10:29.bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the
:10:30. > :10:33.Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time
:10:34. > :10:38.where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that
:10:39. > :10:43.government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in
:10:44. > :10:46.the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy
:10:47. > :10:50.consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in
:10:51. > :10:55.fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of
:10:56. > :10:59.implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of
:11:00. > :11:03.Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk
:11:04. > :11:09.the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about
:11:10. > :11:13.managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the
:11:14. > :11:19.lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and
:11:20. > :11:24.in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just
:11:25. > :11:27.about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut
:11:28. > :11:31.their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We
:11:32. > :11:35.don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that
:11:36. > :11:39.could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There
:11:40. > :11:42.has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and
:11:43. > :11:44.not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory
:11:45. > :11:59.MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of
:12:00. > :12:01.continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's
:12:02. > :12:04.on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs
:12:05. > :12:07.to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of
:12:08. > :12:10.Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government
:12:11. > :12:12.is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you
:12:13. > :12:15.could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a
:12:16. > :12:18.malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,
:12:19. > :12:22.so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics
:12:23. > :12:25.would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff
:12:26. > :12:28.to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the
:12:29. > :12:34.way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You
:12:35. > :12:38.are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been
:12:39. > :12:41.calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite
:12:42. > :12:47.some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to
:12:48. > :12:50.sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly
:12:51. > :12:54.ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in
:12:55. > :13:00.Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial
:13:01. > :13:04.windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I
:13:05. > :13:07.mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling
:13:08. > :13:11.businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having
:13:12. > :13:15.saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point
:13:16. > :13:19.being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those
:13:20. > :13:24.first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions
:13:25. > :13:31.taken. On that unusual agreement we will
:13:32. > :13:32.leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at
:13:33. > :13:35.noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One
:13:36. > :13:38.next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:39. > :13:40.it's the Sunday Politics.