:00:43. > :00:47.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:48. > :00:49.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:50. > :00:51.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:52. > :00:55.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:56. > :00:58.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:59. > :01:04.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:05. > :01:08.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:09. > :01:18.And in the Midlands, our MPs and and the party's
:01:19. > :01:20.And in the Midlands, our MPs and their reflections on naturists
:01:21. > :01:21.outrage. I'll be And with me - as always -
:01:22. > :01:33.the best and the brightest political panel in the business -
:01:34. > :01:35.Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting
:01:36. > :01:41.throughout the programme. First, it was the most
:01:42. > :01:43.deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying
:01:44. > :01:47.to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four
:01:48. > :01:49.people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical
:01:50. > :01:53.condition in hospital. His target was the very
:01:54. > :01:55.heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,
:01:56. > :01:58.and he came within metres of the Prime Minister
:01:59. > :02:01.and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions
:02:02. > :02:05.of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,
:02:06. > :02:07.fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome
:02:08. > :02:19.could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,
:02:20. > :02:25.getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of
:02:26. > :02:29.all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many
:02:30. > :02:32.ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as
:02:33. > :02:37.Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is
:02:38. > :02:41.as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she
:02:42. > :02:44.is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it
:02:45. > :02:50.looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like
:02:51. > :02:54.Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows
:02:55. > :02:58.through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,
:02:59. > :03:03.not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this
:03:04. > :03:08.question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be
:03:09. > :03:12.restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at
:03:13. > :03:15.the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting
:03:16. > :03:20.things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that
:03:21. > :03:24.occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what
:03:25. > :03:30.and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we
:03:31. > :03:33.have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it
:03:34. > :03:38.is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we
:03:39. > :03:43.deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used
:03:44. > :03:47.to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal
:03:48. > :03:52.risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place
:03:53. > :03:58.at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm
:03:59. > :04:01.not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on
:04:02. > :04:06.just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are
:04:07. > :04:14.very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is
:04:15. > :04:17.the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda
:04:18. > :04:21.point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of
:04:22. > :04:26.Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and
:04:27. > :04:31.local people, international visitors, reacting much better than
:04:32. > :04:36.they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an
:04:37. > :04:41.appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city
:04:42. > :04:44.riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a
:04:45. > :04:46.better advertisement for the values that is attacking.
:04:47. > :04:49.OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,
:04:50. > :04:51.what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,
:04:52. > :04:55.but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest
:04:56. > :05:00.on the investigation. According to a police timeline,
:05:01. > :05:05.that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive
:05:06. > :05:07.through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into
:05:08. > :05:14.Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,
:05:15. > :05:18.before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes
:05:19. > :05:29.to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released
:05:30. > :05:34.a statement saying: "We would like to express our
:05:35. > :05:36.gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last
:05:37. > :05:39.moments and who were There was nothing more
:05:40. > :05:42.you could have done, you did your best and we are just
:05:43. > :05:45.grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive
:05:46. > :05:48.may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,
:05:49. > :05:51.despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has
:05:52. > :05:58.such encrypted messaging There should be no place
:05:59. > :06:04.for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that
:06:05. > :06:06.organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others
:06:07. > :06:09.like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists
:06:10. > :06:12.to communicate with each other. It used to be that people
:06:13. > :06:16.would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted
:06:17. > :06:25.to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,
:06:26. > :06:27.but in this situation we need to make sure
:06:28. > :06:29.that our intelligence services have the ability to get
:06:30. > :06:31.into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry
:06:32. > :06:35.to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,
:06:36. > :06:37.although she didn't rule out But for those caught up
:06:38. > :06:41.in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that
:06:42. > :06:49.will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague
:06:50. > :06:51.by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,
:06:52. > :07:03.Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the
:07:04. > :07:06.aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively
:07:07. > :07:10.supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot
:07:11. > :07:14.of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,
:07:15. > :07:18.this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been
:07:19. > :07:22.supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands
:07:23. > :07:26.of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist
:07:27. > :07:30.community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,
:07:31. > :07:34.illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as
:07:35. > :07:41.well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan
:07:42. > :07:44.Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European
:07:45. > :07:49.link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is
:07:50. > :07:52.an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is
:07:53. > :07:58.not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course
:07:59. > :08:02.in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he
:08:03. > :08:06.launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've
:08:07. > :08:11.seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the
:08:12. > :08:15.attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the
:08:16. > :08:19.fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat
:08:20. > :08:26.dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle
:08:27. > :08:30.to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a
:08:31. > :08:34.secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a
:08:35. > :08:37.trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last
:08:38. > :08:41.couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately
:08:42. > :08:45.in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency
:08:46. > :08:49.services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and
:08:50. > :08:54.Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not
:08:55. > :08:59.completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being
:09:00. > :09:04.stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted
:09:05. > :09:09.attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and
:09:10. > :09:14.that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted
:09:15. > :09:18.attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them
:09:19. > :09:22.get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting
:09:23. > :09:27.through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly
:09:28. > :09:34.something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look
:09:35. > :09:38.at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from
:09:39. > :09:42.what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really
:09:43. > :09:47.appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the
:09:48. > :09:51.edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target
:09:52. > :09:54.list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of
:09:55. > :09:59.radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to
:10:00. > :10:03.monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the
:10:04. > :10:08.blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a
:10:09. > :10:12.sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work
:10:13. > :10:16.and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities
:10:17. > :10:20.have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this
:10:21. > :10:24.morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe
:10:25. > :10:28.Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is
:10:29. > :10:32.difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.
:10:33. > :10:38.What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases
:10:39. > :10:42.we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,
:10:43. > :10:46.encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in
:10:47. > :10:50.the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a
:10:51. > :10:53.real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a
:10:54. > :10:57.stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully
:10:58. > :11:02.intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged
:11:03. > :11:07.via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an
:11:08. > :11:11.inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through
:11:12. > :11:14.appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law
:11:15. > :11:21.enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back
:11:22. > :11:24.that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We
:11:25. > :11:34.know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the
:11:35. > :11:38.Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes
:11:39. > :11:41.to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for
:11:42. > :11:44.her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I
:11:45. > :11:49.would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more
:11:50. > :11:54.consistent interception of communication in all parts of the
:11:55. > :11:56.way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,
:11:57. > :11:58.thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now
:11:59. > :12:06.is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us
:12:07. > :12:10.about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are
:12:11. > :12:18.looked after by some very courageous, very professional police
:12:19. > :12:23.officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as
:12:24. > :12:27.you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very
:12:28. > :12:30.carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that
:12:31. > :12:36.need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by
:12:37. > :12:46.professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...
:12:47. > :12:50.Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,
:12:51. > :12:54.particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as
:12:55. > :12:57.security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there
:12:58. > :13:02.are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be
:13:03. > :13:05.made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get
:13:06. > :13:10.some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was
:13:11. > :13:14.always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start
:13:15. > :13:19.to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed
:13:20. > :13:22.armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,
:13:23. > :13:30.because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,
:13:31. > :13:33.the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not
:13:34. > :13:40.the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security
:13:41. > :13:43.arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I
:13:44. > :13:48.don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed
:13:49. > :13:53.commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards
:13:54. > :13:58.removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of
:13:59. > :14:02.Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in
:14:03. > :14:09.particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide
:14:10. > :14:13.how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard
:14:14. > :14:18.sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of
:14:19. > :14:22.staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details
:14:23. > :14:27.of the operation but my understanding is that the number of
:14:28. > :14:31.people available is what the police and the security authorities working
:14:32. > :14:36.together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate
:14:37. > :14:42.with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident
:14:43. > :14:46.unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they
:14:47. > :14:50.were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career
:14:51. > :14:59.with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I
:15:00. > :15:02.think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any
:15:03. > :15:06.lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are
:15:07. > :15:11.still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police
:15:12. > :15:17.officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity
:15:18. > :15:21.of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates
:15:22. > :15:25.were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening
:15:26. > :15:31.to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was
:15:32. > :15:34.able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a
:15:35. > :15:39.particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to
:15:40. > :15:45.judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are
:15:46. > :15:48.trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we
:15:49. > :15:52.have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police
:15:53. > :15:56.officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be
:15:57. > :15:58.a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of
:15:59. > :16:07.that. We know the attacker was stopped in
:16:08. > :16:13.his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the
:16:14. > :16:18.armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I
:16:19. > :16:22.cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were
:16:23. > :16:27.other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker
:16:28. > :16:34.from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible
:16:35. > :16:38.for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,
:16:39. > :16:41.carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended
:16:42. > :16:51.with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament
:16:52. > :16:57.and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been
:16:58. > :17:03.mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are
:17:04. > :17:10.dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised
:17:11. > :17:13.by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not
:17:14. > :17:20.debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,
:17:21. > :17:24.I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear
:17:25. > :17:28.that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the
:17:29. > :17:34.security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said
:17:35. > :17:41.to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that
:17:42. > :17:47.there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual
:17:48. > :17:51.officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to
:17:52. > :17:56.strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at
:17:57. > :18:02.Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward
:18:03. > :18:10.to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions
:18:11. > :18:18.of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not
:18:19. > :18:23.just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security
:18:24. > :18:27.engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we
:18:28. > :18:31.don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are
:18:32. > :18:37.armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking
:18:38. > :18:41.you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our
:18:42. > :18:46.security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain
:18:47. > :18:50.places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we
:18:51. > :18:55.rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from
:18:56. > :18:59.Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to
:19:00. > :19:04.get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,
:19:05. > :19:08.and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might
:19:09. > :19:14.need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the
:19:15. > :19:18.triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the
:19:19. > :19:23.European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told
:19:24. > :19:27.Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of
:19:28. > :19:34.the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do
:19:35. > :19:38.you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of
:19:39. > :19:45.negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the
:19:46. > :19:49.EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British
:19:50. > :19:56.national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make
:19:57. > :19:59.of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of
:20:00. > :20:07.negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that
:20:08. > :20:12.it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between
:20:13. > :20:17.the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues
:20:18. > :20:21.from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy
:20:22. > :20:25.co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a
:20:26. > :20:32.substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU
:20:33. > :20:38.relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit
:20:39. > :20:43.need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship
:20:44. > :20:47.that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining
:20:48. > :20:52.member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.
:20:53. > :20:56.Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and
:20:57. > :21:00.join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we
:21:01. > :21:04.will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies
:21:05. > :21:18.and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a
:21:19. > :21:22.deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce
:21:23. > :21:25.bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or
:21:26. > :21:30.do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to
:21:31. > :21:35.run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?
:21:36. > :21:40.I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into
:21:41. > :21:44.negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with
:21:45. > :21:49.Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved
:21:50. > :21:53.too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each
:21:54. > :21:57.other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the
:21:58. > :22:06.Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime
:22:07. > :22:11.Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,
:22:12. > :22:16.for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we
:22:17. > :22:25.want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term
:22:26. > :22:30.payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government
:22:31. > :22:34.ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that
:22:35. > :22:38.is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the
:22:39. > :22:46.negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave
:22:47. > :22:50.side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of
:22:51. > :23:02.50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks
:23:03. > :23:07.that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the
:23:08. > :23:10.situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic
:23:11. > :23:15.obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last
:23:16. > :23:19.year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the
:23:20. > :23:24.opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.
:23:25. > :23:28.Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper
:23:29. > :23:32.will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't
:23:33. > :23:39.announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's
:23:40. > :23:42.say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it
:23:43. > :23:48.will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a
:23:49. > :23:55.dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?
:23:56. > :24:01.No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal
:24:02. > :24:07.obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they
:24:08. > :24:15.stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example
:24:16. > :24:20.refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a
:24:21. > :24:25.UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary
:24:26. > :24:34.legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This
:24:35. > :24:40.is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and
:24:41. > :24:44.the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in
:24:45. > :24:49.what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in
:24:50. > :24:53.voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,
:24:54. > :24:58.will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny
:24:59. > :25:04.process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant
:25:05. > :25:08.committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone
:25:09. > :25:12.else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I
:25:13. > :25:18.hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,
:25:19. > :25:24.but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament
:25:25. > :25:26.itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being
:25:27. > :25:27.with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -
:25:28. > :25:30.Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip
:25:31. > :25:32.from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,
:25:33. > :25:33.but yesterday announced that he was quitting
:25:34. > :25:35.to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came
:25:36. > :25:37.in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy
:25:38. > :25:40.little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage
:25:41. > :25:44.turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock
:25:45. > :25:46.and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum
:25:47. > :25:51.campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU
:25:52. > :25:54.campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official
:25:55. > :26:00.Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former
:26:01. > :26:02.Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell
:26:03. > :26:04.of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,
:26:05. > :26:06.writing that, Announcing his resignation
:26:07. > :26:14.on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately
:26:15. > :26:16.wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that
:26:17. > :26:19.that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving
:26:20. > :26:22.Ukip." When Mr Carswell left
:26:23. > :26:24.the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,
:26:25. > :26:27.triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission
:26:28. > :26:30.from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has
:26:31. > :26:39.said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford
:26:40. > :26:50.by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are
:26:51. > :26:57.you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm
:26:58. > :27:03.always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary
:27:04. > :27:07.level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been
:27:08. > :27:12.adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his
:27:13. > :27:16.relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a
:27:17. > :27:20.hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring
:27:21. > :27:25.the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it
:27:26. > :27:29.seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone
:27:30. > :27:35.and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did
:27:36. > :27:38.Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your
:27:39. > :27:42.national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the
:27:43. > :27:45.National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues
:27:46. > :27:50.that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the
:27:51. > :27:56.knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and
:27:57. > :28:02.his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he
:28:03. > :28:06.under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they
:28:07. > :28:13.would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not
:28:14. > :28:16.saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced
:28:17. > :28:25.difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and
:28:26. > :28:30.I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane
:28:31. > :28:36.James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by
:28:37. > :28:41.election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now
:28:42. > :28:47.stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday
:28:48. > :29:04.on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4
:29:05. > :29:09.million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be
:29:10. > :29:11.happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,
:29:12. > :29:16.restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be
:29:17. > :29:21.launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used
:29:22. > :29:26.to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that
:29:27. > :29:30.would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way
:29:31. > :29:36.of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've
:29:37. > :29:40.only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to
:29:41. > :29:44.restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial
:29:45. > :29:49.footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a
:29:50. > :29:54.party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,
:29:55. > :29:58.tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it
:29:59. > :30:05.wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't
:30:06. > :30:10.have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.
:30:11. > :30:14.Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has
:30:15. > :30:19.been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we
:30:20. > :30:24.get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just
:30:25. > :30:35.submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you
:30:36. > :30:39.pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.
:30:40. > :30:43.In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News
:30:44. > :30:48.that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since
:30:49. > :30:53.the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the
:30:54. > :30:57.relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald
:30:58. > :31:02.Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has
:31:03. > :31:06.said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a
:31:07. > :31:12.small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the
:31:13. > :31:26.relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point
:31:27. > :31:30.about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on
:31:31. > :31:32.that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives
:31:33. > :31:34.and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you
:31:35. > :31:37.track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.
:31:38. > :31:40.Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of
:31:41. > :31:44.Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the
:31:45. > :31:48.wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably
:31:49. > :31:53.become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,
:31:54. > :31:56.should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called
:31:57. > :32:00.by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know
:32:01. > :32:06.certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always
:32:07. > :32:08.keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a
:32:09. > :32:15.by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening
:32:16. > :32:20.nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have
:32:21. > :32:29.Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not
:32:30. > :32:32.switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a
:32:33. > :32:37.difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,
:32:38. > :32:40.if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time
:32:41. > :32:45.an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,
:32:46. > :32:49.far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,
:32:50. > :32:53.that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm
:32:54. > :32:58.being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a
:32:59. > :33:04.change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every
:33:05. > :33:10.constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents
:33:11. > :33:15.to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every
:33:16. > :33:20.house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if
:33:21. > :33:23.20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure
:33:24. > :33:29.they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several
:33:30. > :33:32.by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the
:33:33. > :33:39.electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,
:33:40. > :33:44.would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I
:33:45. > :33:48.have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently
:33:49. > :33:55.you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa
:33:56. > :34:00.May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago
:34:01. > :34:04.she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about
:34:05. > :34:08.making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50
:34:09. > :34:13.would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip
:34:14. > :34:15.exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be
:34:16. > :34:21.cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made
:34:22. > :34:25.it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the
:34:26. > :34:29.referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea
:34:30. > :34:35.I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly
:34:36. > :34:40.rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,
:34:41. > :34:43.broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in
:34:44. > :34:46.Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that
:34:47. > :34:50.the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just
:34:51. > :34:58.angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we
:34:59. > :35:04.have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence
:35:05. > :35:07.in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking
:35:08. > :35:11.the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed
:35:12. > :35:15.because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we
:35:16. > :35:20.move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at
:35:21. > :35:24.Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the
:35:25. > :35:29.referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage
:35:30. > :35:36.front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it
:35:37. > :35:40.on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he
:35:41. > :35:44.is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we
:35:45. > :35:49.wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit
:35:50. > :35:53.because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the
:35:54. > :35:57.population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,
:35:58. > :36:01.why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is
:36:02. > :36:04.happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that
:36:05. > :36:09.Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a
:36:10. > :36:13.single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue
:36:14. > :36:17.pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue
:36:18. > :36:21.pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and
:36:22. > :36:25.I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an
:36:26. > :36:30.exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in
:36:31. > :36:34.Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said
:36:35. > :36:39.she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would
:36:40. > :36:42.get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last
:36:43. > :36:46.year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this
:36:47. > :36:50.country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take
:36:51. > :36:54.yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is
:36:55. > :36:59.they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May
:37:00. > :37:03.is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's
:37:04. > :37:08.celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,
:37:09. > :37:10.until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime
:37:11. > :37:15.ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still
:37:16. > :37:18.paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large
:37:19. > :37:22.divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd
:37:23. > :37:31.and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a
:37:32. > :37:34.Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go
:37:35. > :37:40.wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our
:37:41. > :37:44.turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,
:37:45. > :37:49.book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and
:37:50. > :37:53.order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have
:37:54. > :37:57.confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.
:37:58. > :38:03.You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that
:38:04. > :38:08.Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would
:38:09. > :38:12.you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable
:38:13. > :38:15.being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch
:38:16. > :38:23.of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being
:38:24. > :38:27.independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look
:38:28. > :38:31.at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We
:38:32. > :38:34.only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next
:38:35. > :38:38.general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very
:38:39. > :38:57.Hello again. much.
:38:58. > :38:59.Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands after a
:39:00. > :39:02.And sadly, yes, confirmation that this
:39:03. > :39:07.latest terrorist outrage has clear links with Islamist extremism
:39:08. > :39:11.So, can Parliament remain a public meeting
:39:12. > :39:17.place, or must it become even more of a fortress?
:39:18. > :39:20.Well, our guests today both endured that five hour
:39:21. > :39:25.lockdown of Westminster and both, thank goodness, are safe
:39:26. > :39:29.With us here today, game Dame Caroline Spelman, the Conservative
:39:30. > :39:34.MP for Meriden, and Richard Burden, Labour MP for Birmingham Northfield.
:39:35. > :39:36.Good to have you both with us here today.
:39:37. > :39:38.So, we begin, of course, with the horror visted upon
:39:39. > :39:46.Westminster from here in the Midlands on Wednesday.
:39:47. > :39:48.Parliament bristles with armed police, CCTV and
:39:49. > :39:52.In the event, though, all it took was one man with a
:39:53. > :39:55.Islamic State, so-called, say he was one of their
:39:56. > :39:59.But one of our Muslim MPs assured the Prime
:40:00. > :40:02.Minister this outrage had nothing whatsoever to do with the religion
:40:03. > :40:07.This attacker and people like him are not of my
:40:08. > :40:09.religion, nor are they of our community.
:40:10. > :40:12.We should condemn all of them who pretend to be of a particular
:40:13. > :40:14.religion, because they are not of religion.
:40:15. > :40:16.If they were of religion, they wouldn't be carrying
:40:17. > :40:22.We have to say united and show them that they can't win on these
:40:23. > :40:28.And I do realise it must have been a dreadful ordeal, so
:40:29. > :40:32.in a way, I hesitate to ask you to relive it, but can I
:40:33. > :40:34.ask you first of all, Caroline, exactly what happened to you on
:40:35. > :40:42.Well, I'd just been talking to three groups of
:40:43. > :40:44.schoolchildren from Walsall Common junior school, who had made
:40:45. > :40:49.the journey to London, and I went to the chamber
:40:50. > :40:51.to vote because we had a vote at 2:40pm.
:40:52. > :40:54.So, one of my main concerns, as I had no phone signal,
:40:55. > :41:01.But I'm very pleased to say, when I rang the head
:41:02. > :41:05.once I had a phone much later, he told me they had got away safely
:41:06. > :41:07.and he said something I think which was
:41:08. > :41:10.He said, "Caroline, this would not stop me
:41:11. > :41:12.from bringing children to visit Parliament another year."
:41:13. > :41:15.You say you were locked down, as it were, yourself.
:41:16. > :41:19.Yes, well, I voted and I found myself in the corridors where quite
:41:20. > :41:22.a lot of my colleagues were locked into the chamber of the House of
:41:23. > :41:26.So, I wasn't quite sure where I should go
:41:27. > :41:32.from the corridors but, actually, we were directed to a secure room
:41:33. > :41:34.below the chamber and, yeah, that's where
:41:35. > :41:40.Well, I had some guests down in connection
:41:41. > :41:43.with my work as part of the All-party Motor Group and, like
:41:44. > :41:45.Caroline, I'd been called to vote, I'd just been in to vote,
:41:46. > :41:48.was going back to meet them and that's when all the doors
:41:49. > :41:52.were shut and I was locked down in central lobby with my guests,
:41:53. > :41:55.which is the dead centre of the building.
:41:56. > :42:01.It's were the term "lobbying your MP" comes from.
:42:02. > :42:09.I did have a phone signal, so, unlike Caroline, we were
:42:10. > :42:15.able to pick up a bit of what was going on about that had to
:42:16. > :42:27.When we realised the whole of what was going on outside
:42:28. > :42:29.unfolding, obviously it was chilling for all of us.
:42:30. > :42:32.Making it very isolated, as we are hearing, where you were.
:42:33. > :42:34.You had plenty of time, obviously, to reflect on your
:42:35. > :42:36.predicament, possibly the significance of what was going on.
:42:37. > :42:41.I desperately wanted to contact my family to tell them
:42:42. > :42:45.that I was safe and I also wanted to be sure that my staff were safe.
:42:46. > :42:46.We do practice the procedure and I knew
:42:47. > :42:51.that my staff would be evacuated to another part of the building.
:42:52. > :42:53.I was just hoping and praying they were
:42:54. > :42:56.safely there but, when we were all let go, the first thing we did
:42:57. > :42:58.was head back to try and find our
:42:59. > :43:01.members of staff and I gave them a very big hug.
:43:02. > :43:06.We heard Khalid Mahmood speaking, I thought, with great
:43:07. > :43:15.The community response in terms of social cohesion
:43:16. > :43:19.in and around Birmingham has been very strong in the days since
:43:20. > :43:21.Wednesday, and yet we do hear these reports about jihad
:43:22. > :43:23.and those seven wards that have a particularly big
:43:24. > :43:26.concentration of people who have had terror related convictions.
:43:27. > :43:30.How do we balance how to make sense of all this?
:43:31. > :43:32.I think Khalid had it absolutely right there.
:43:33. > :43:35.Yes, clearly, were police enquiries lead
:43:36. > :43:38.out of this incident and others, they need to be followed up, whether
:43:39. > :43:41.that is in Birmingham or anywhere else, but the idea that the person
:43:42. > :43:44.who committed this atrocity in Parliament or indeed other
:43:45. > :43:46.atrocities are anything to do with the vast,
:43:47. > :43:49.Muslims in this country, it's an aberration of Islam
:43:50. > :43:51.and I think Khalid did speak with great force in
:43:52. > :43:59.saying, "This is not in my religion."
:44:00. > :44:02.I would really like to add that the local imam from Solihull is
:44:03. > :44:05.one of the first people to e-mail me and say,
:44:06. > :44:07.I'm so glad you're safe, I condemn absolutely these attacks
:44:08. > :44:14.Muslims who are misinformed about their faith, this
:44:15. > :44:16.is the hijacking of religion, it's been known in the
:44:17. > :44:20.past the world, it's a prime example of it
:44:21. > :44:28.Birmingham, the Church of England receive a ?1.5 million of funding
:44:29. > :44:32.for a "near neighbours" programme to help people of different faith
:44:33. > :44:34.better understand their differences and also to draw closer together.
:44:35. > :44:48.And so, like Parliament itself, let's get back to business.
:44:49. > :44:50.When the Bromsgrove MP and communities secretary,
:44:51. > :44:53.Sajid Javid, approved the council's plan for 6000 homes on the green
:44:54. > :44:55.belt near Sutton Coldfield, he put himself on a collision course
:44:56. > :45:02.Well, Mr Javed did promise tough decisions, didn't he?
:45:03. > :45:05.Well, our political correspondent explains why this is getting
:45:06. > :45:16.A green and pleasant land, but not for long.
:45:17. > :45:19.This particular bit of green belt in Sutton Coldfield is shortly to
:45:20. > :45:22.Where we are walking is actually just the start.
:45:23. > :45:25.If you look to the left, over there, that's one of the
:45:26. > :45:28.borders and behind you again, it goes right the way to the A38,
:45:29. > :45:35.another two or three fields that way.
:45:36. > :45:42.It's the only way, Birmingham City Council said, to
:45:43. > :45:46.Campaigners argue it is short-sighted.
:45:47. > :45:48.In Birmingham, we actually haven't got
:45:49. > :45:57.It has been released into brown field effectively,
:45:58. > :45:59.so we have no urban fringe, we have no green belt remaining.
:46:00. > :46:01.And it's created a political row between
:46:02. > :46:03.your local Conservative MP and the Conservative minister
:46:04. > :46:05.responsible for giving it the go ahead.
:46:06. > :46:06.Where the independent planning Inspectorate
:46:07. > :46:09.has said that it meets all the rules and regulations, then the Government
:46:10. > :46:11.has no valid reason to stand in their way.
:46:12. > :46:14.And this may not be the only green belt land that disappears
:46:15. > :46:22.The West Midlands combine authority has a vision.
:46:23. > :46:24.It wants to increase the region by more
:46:25. > :46:27.than 500,000 people over the next 15 years.
:46:28. > :46:30.An independent report said, for that to happen, the region needs
:46:31. > :46:33.That's 50,000 more than currently planned for by local
:46:34. > :46:40.Let's use brown field, that's what we keep hearing.
:46:41. > :46:42.That means sites like this, Friar Park in Sandwell,
:46:43. > :46:51.Just to prove this in context, the report says, to meet
:46:52. > :46:53.the West Midlands housing need, you'd need 70 more of these sites
:46:54. > :47:01.They take a long time to clear up and that means
:47:02. > :47:06.Last week, the combined authority announced it was putting ?53
:47:07. > :47:09.million into reaching brown field land with more on the way.
:47:10. > :47:11.But the report said it is green belt that must
:47:12. > :47:16.I think there's a misunderstanding about what green belt land is.
:47:17. > :47:19.I don't think we will need, as people will try to argue,
:47:20. > :47:22.We need to concentrate on the brown field land sites
:47:23. > :47:25.first because those are the ones that blight all our communities
:47:26. > :47:32.Green belt was originally put in place to prevent
:47:33. > :47:37.urban sprawl and protect the character of certain areas.
:47:38. > :47:39.Some say times have changed and a 21st-century problem
:47:40. > :48:01.-- As we've heard, Sutton Coldfield MP Andrew Mitchell
:48:02. > :48:04.is fighting this proposal all the way, but given the need to
:48:05. > :48:06.accommodate a growing population, I suggested
:48:07. > :48:07.to him down the line to
:48:08. > :48:09.Westminster that this meant some green belt development was
:48:10. > :48:13.Well, it made you got the case certainly wasn't made in
:48:14. > :48:20.I attended part of the public enquiry, the case was never
:48:21. > :48:23.There is a very strong feeling that there were
:48:24. > :48:26.alternatives and that the views of the 100,000 people who live in Royal
:48:27. > :48:28.Sutton Coldfield have been completely ignored.
:48:29. > :48:30.These are Labour proposals from Labour Birmingham
:48:31. > :48:32.City Council, but we're also dismayed that the Government wades
:48:33. > :48:34.through these are Labour proposals without calling them and looking
:48:35. > :48:45.Have you had any further conversations with Sajid
:48:46. > :48:52.Javid about this and have you had that set to in the House of Commons?
:48:53. > :48:55.Well, you know, he is a friend of mine, but I stand up for
:48:56. > :48:58.Sutton Coldfield and anyone who, in my view, of whatever party, does
:48:59. > :49:00.something that will damage Sutton Coldfield, I express myself
:49:01. > :49:02.politely, but forcibly in that context.
:49:03. > :49:04.What do you say about the accusation
:49:05. > :49:12.I say that Sutton Coldfield, its residents, protest
:49:13. > :49:17.movement, cancel, Conservative councils, have made clear
:49:18. > :49:26.want to build more homes but we are determined that the
:49:27. > :49:28.next-generation have the same advantages in terms of home
:49:29. > :49:30.ownership and rental, and so forth, that our generation has had.
:49:31. > :49:32.But they've got to go somewhere and the
:49:33. > :49:35.lesson, again and again is that we have people say, well,
:49:36. > :49:38.There nwere a whole series of alternatives that were
:49:39. > :49:41.properly discussed and examined and, above all, we came up, as a
:49:42. > :49:44.community, with the proposal that there should be an HM
:49:45. > :49:46.moratorium of all the green belt was built on it,
:49:47. > :49:48.so that better statistics, knowledge, would be available with
:49:49. > :49:51.which to make the decision to spoil the green belt.
:49:52. > :49:54.Once you build on the green belt, it is removed for ever from
:49:55. > :49:56.the enjoyment of future generations and that proposal was not even
:49:57. > :49:58.properly examined, let alone granted.
:49:59. > :50:01.The community in Sutton Coldfield have been incredibly
:50:02. > :50:07.Richard, as a Birmingham MP, of course, you
:50:08. > :50:09.have a real feel for the pressures actually in the city.
:50:10. > :50:11.Do you have sympathy for the folk then Sutton
:50:12. > :50:15.Coldfield to feel that the valuable bits of green space is going to be
:50:16. > :50:28.The presumption should always be that you don't build on green fields
:50:29. > :50:32.I absolutely understand where they are
:50:33. > :50:35.The pressures are real and Birmingham, for example, at the
:50:36. > :50:37.moment, has over 20,000 people waiting for homes.
:50:38. > :50:39.We need between 80,000-90,000 new homes over the
:50:40. > :50:44.So, these things need to be looked at strategically.
:50:45. > :50:46.It needs to have a situation whereby if
:50:47. > :50:48.plans are made to build on green field sites,
:50:49. > :50:54.then there needs to be a proper procedure for considering
:50:55. > :51:02.There is actually what has happened in relation to Sutton Coldfield and,
:51:03. > :51:07.as your report showed, it's the Government
:51:08. > :51:18.Birmingham plans to build on that land were sound.
:51:19. > :51:20.Your colleague, Andrew Mitchell, is convinced that Sajid Javid
:51:21. > :51:21.should have called it in, that
:51:22. > :51:23.he wasn't satisfied with the way the Government
:51:24. > :51:27.Well, Andrew Mitchell and I both suffer from the problem we don't
:51:28. > :51:29.have much Brownfield in either of our constituencies.
:51:30. > :51:32.You've got the Garden Village in your area, haven't
:51:33. > :51:37.But I think the right approach to this is a strategic one and Andy
:51:38. > :51:41.There's a full list of all the candidates
:51:42. > :51:48.Well, he has pointed out there are 1600 hectares of
:51:49. > :51:53.Now the West Midlands combined authorities do need to get to see
:51:54. > :51:56.strategically the region's housing need added as possible to bring
:51:57. > :52:00.these sides that have languished for decades into use.
:52:01. > :52:02.I've taken you, Patrick, to an estate in my
:52:03. > :52:04.constituency, where Solihull managed to build 1000 extra homes.
:52:05. > :52:18.There are more ways of finding new, affordable
:52:19. > :52:21.housing without tearing up green field and green belt which, in
:52:22. > :52:30.Caroline mentioned who is about to be elected actually
:52:31. > :52:33.and the Institute for Public Policy Research who elect
:52:34. > :52:35.that they may should have a bigger role in housing
:52:36. > :52:37.actually to ensure that the team unity voices heard.
:52:38. > :52:40.What they may position gives us is the opportunity
:52:41. > :52:42.to have a strong voice for the West Midlands.
:52:43. > :52:45.There's far too many decisions, frankly, made in London
:52:46. > :52:48.and that's why the Labour candidate for West Midlands Mayor, Sean Simon,
:52:49. > :52:49.is making the return of local control.
:52:50. > :52:53.Of course, and there are other candidates, as I was saying,
:52:54. > :52:56.but isn't the danger that, when you involve
:52:57. > :53:06.they just say, not here, thank you very much?
:53:07. > :53:10.We've been consulting on our local plan and, in
:53:11. > :53:13.my constituency, the council has been very transparent about where
:53:14. > :53:16.all these sites are and people say, very clearly, we recognise we need
:53:17. > :53:17.affordable housing in our own backyard.
:53:18. > :53:21.Let's leave that there for the moment.
:53:22. > :53:24.Well, of that Government climb-down on national insurance contributions
:53:25. > :53:27.recently, I wonder if we sense and U-turn coming on.
:53:28. > :53:29.When they saw the close of the consultation period on
:53:30. > :53:31.the Government's controversial national funding formula for
:53:32. > :53:33.Its planned replacement system for the present
:53:34. > :53:37.Ministers say it's fairer than the existing poscode lottery,
:53:38. > :53:40.but it has triggered a storm of protest inside
:53:41. > :53:44.Hundreds march against cuts to school budgets
:53:45. > :53:46.proposed under a funding formula advocated by ministers in the name
:53:47. > :53:59.They say lump-sum payments to individual schools will better match
:54:00. > :54:02.The National Audit Office calculates its
:54:03. > :54:11.an 8% cut their people over this Parliament with urban areas,
:54:12. > :54:15.including Coventry and Birmingham, fairing worst.
:54:16. > :54:23.Birmingham, where 96% of schools will lose a total of
:54:24. > :54:32.Windsor and Maidenhead gained ?300,000.
:54:33. > :54:38.But Tory shires are not happy either.
:54:39. > :54:41.Even though the lowest funding would get more.
:54:42. > :54:42.The Conservative MP Geoffrey Clifton Brown had
:54:43. > :54:44.a deputation of nine Conservatives to lobby Prime
:54:45. > :54:45.Minister and later won the Education Secretary
:54:46. > :54:48.their formula would not be carried in its present form.
:54:49. > :54:54.I can tell you and this programme that the Government whips
:54:55. > :54:55.office also think she could well be right.
:54:56. > :54:58.So, look, this isn't a final solution.
:54:59. > :55:07.clear that Staffordshire should be at least getting, AT LEAST getting
:55:08. > :55:14.I hope they will respond and I hope they go back,
:55:15. > :55:17.Justin Greening will go back to the Chancellor of the Exchequer
:55:18. > :55:19.and say that this is not going to work.
:55:20. > :55:22.The Government say they are spending more on schools
:55:23. > :55:25.than ever but the current system is unfair, opaque and outdated.
:55:26. > :55:29.That message may be difficult to sell any
:55:30. > :55:31.typical secondary school facing a ?300,000 a year cut.
:55:32. > :55:34.I wonder if another Government climb-down is
:55:35. > :55:39.Do you think they will tweak that formula, Caroline, and
:55:40. > :55:45.because the present formula formula simply isn't fair.
:55:46. > :55:52.Solihull pupils get 22% less per capita then
:55:53. > :55:54.-- than wards that are adjacent to these, and identical
:55:55. > :55:58.That is ?989 less per pupil right now.
:55:59. > :56:01.For a long time, there has been a commitments to try
:56:02. > :56:03.and improve the formula is, as a result of
:56:04. > :56:04.this, Solihull gets an
:56:05. > :56:06.uplift of 3% and Birmingham overall reduces by 2.4%.
:56:07. > :56:09.It has benefited by 22% more than we have to this
:56:10. > :56:21.I think it's a consultation, the Government will do the work unit
:56:22. > :56:22.again, but there does need to be changed.
:56:23. > :56:25.And only happening, as Caroline said, only because Labour
:56:26. > :56:27.in office neglected to update this very out of date system.
:56:28. > :56:30.When Labour was in power, our priority
:56:31. > :56:35.Major increases in the schools' budget.
:56:36. > :56:37.This new formula simply isn't fair and it's not
:56:38. > :56:54.All but seven will actually lose money per
:56:55. > :56:59.The equivalent of one, two, three, four in some
:57:00. > :57:05.Where do you find the extra money for all this?
:57:06. > :57:08.Reversing the cut in corporation tax, for example, will
:57:09. > :57:12.Only find the money to keep school happy
:57:13. > :57:17.there are more winners than losers in this
:57:18. > :57:18.but obviously it's the losers that
:57:19. > :57:23.There really isn't more winners than losers in this.
:57:24. > :57:25.96% of schools will lose and, as you have in your
:57:26. > :57:28.report, the National Audit Office has recognised and decided that
:57:29. > :57:30.there will be about an 8% the pupil in schools.
:57:31. > :57:33.We need to be able to grow our economy.
:57:34. > :57:35.That is what we have been consistently arguing.
:57:36. > :57:41.Frankly, if we were to talk about levelling up of
:57:42. > :57:45.But don't take money away from schools in some
:57:46. > :57:47.Including parts of Caroline's constituency.
:57:48. > :57:51.Emphasises yet again the power of these
:57:52. > :57:54.backbencher revolts at the
:57:55. > :57:57.moment and the group carries nation of the 17 seat majority.
:57:58. > :57:59.No wonder there's talk about a general
:58:00. > :58:02.It's not easy with a small majority but let's not get,
:58:03. > :58:04.the Government is actually spending more money on education.
:58:05. > :58:15.Yeah, but there is more being spent on education.
:58:16. > :58:21.It's what the National Audit Office say.
:58:22. > :58:23.In my most deprived wards, they get 22%
:58:24. > :58:25.unless funding per capita converted the pupils
:58:26. > :58:26.just over the border in
:58:27. > :58:29.There has come from Birmingham to be educated in
:58:30. > :58:31.Solihull to bring the money with them,
:58:32. > :58:32.the money they would God have
:58:33. > :58:37.I wish we could pursue this further but I'm afraid we are being counted
:58:38. > :58:42.Right, let's get up to speed now with the rest of the
:58:43. > :58:44.political development is making the news here over the past week
:58:45. > :58:46.with our round-up in 60 seconds, brought
:58:47. > :58:59.A Chinese company opening a factory in giving
:59:00. > :59:07.making electric versions of London taxis creating 1000 jobs.
:59:08. > :59:09.This is now being run by the National Trust.
:59:10. > :59:11.Staffordshire County Council has handed over control to
:59:12. > :59:15.The NHS Trust which runs the whilst out on county hospitals
:59:16. > :59:16.has been placed into special financial measures.
:59:17. > :59:18.The University hospitals of north midlands is one
:59:19. > :59:20.of ten trusts listed as failing to meet spending targets.
:59:21. > :59:22.The Conservative MP for Solihull, Julian
:59:23. > :59:24.Knight, organised a letter to the BBC
:59:25. > :59:25.signed by 72 MPs accusing the
:59:26. > :59:27.cooperation of being "pessimistic and skewed"
:59:28. > :59:31.in its Brexit coverage since
:59:32. > :59:34.Labour's deputy leader claims there's a
:59:35. > :59:36.secret plot by hard left to seize control of the party.
:59:37. > :59:40.He said the momentum group is trying to increase
:59:41. > :59:42.its influence by obtaining funding from the Unite union.
:59:43. > :59:44.If this is a hard left plenty take over the
:59:45. > :59:46.Labour Party coming to Paris, then our very
:59:47. > :59:47.electoral existence is in
:59:48. > :59:53.This interim place into that Unite leadership
:59:54. > :59:57.election in which the Midlands Secretary Gerard Coyne is
:59:58. > :00:00.challenging the Len McCluskey, who we just seen is one of Jeremy
:00:01. > :00:03.A dire warning, Richard, from your deputy
:00:04. > :00:12.There has always been differences and
:00:13. > :00:16.different wings of all political party.
:00:17. > :00:20.What Tom, I think, is concerned about here and this is what he said,
:00:21. > :00:23.is that it is the danger is that go beyond that and you could actually
:00:24. > :00:26.end up with a change in the character of the Labour Party.
:00:27. > :00:30.Well, I don't know, but my concern about
:00:31. > :00:32.this is these things need to be looked at.
:00:33. > :00:34.Tom has made some serious allegations and they need to be
:00:35. > :00:39.As far as the viewers are concerned of this programme and the
:00:40. > :00:41.people are concerned, what they hear is a row
:00:42. > :00:43.within a political party and frankly, that is no use to
:00:44. > :00:47.anybody and I think they would be saying to ask, get your act together
:00:48. > :00:49.And get behind Jeremy Corbyn, presumably.
:00:50. > :00:51.For the Conservatives, your colleagues would really rather like
:00:52. > :00:54.to see Jeremy Corbyn still there as leader in the time
:00:55. > :00:56.of the next election, so you're keeping a close
:00:57. > :01:05.They say that to govern well, you need
:01:06. > :01:08.a strong opposition and actually, what is happening to the Labour
:01:09. > :01:13.I was disturbed to hear what Tom had to say and he said that there seems
:01:14. > :01:17.to be more will to be a British protest movement and TV be serious
:01:18. > :01:30.-- more will to be a protest movement than take part.
:01:31. > :01:32.In our democracy, we need an opposition.
:01:33. > :01:37.Thanks, as I say, to Caroline Spelman and Richard Vernon.
:01:38. > :01:49.can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank
:01:50. > :01:55.you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you.
:01:56. > :02:12.So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday
:02:13. > :02:15.at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document
:02:16. > :02:19.Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -
:02:20. > :02:21.overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,
:02:22. > :02:24.And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,
:02:25. > :02:26.will trigger Article 50, formally starting
:02:27. > :02:29.The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,
:02:30. > :02:35.made an appeal for unity at the gathering.
:02:36. > :02:40.Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations
:02:41. > :02:48.that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.
:02:49. > :02:51.At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,
:02:52. > :02:55.they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic
:02:56. > :02:58.circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith
:02:59. > :03:17.Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on
:03:18. > :03:21.that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important
:03:22. > :03:25.figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our
:03:26. > :03:32.divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new
:03:33. > :03:35.crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international
:03:36. > :03:41.trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,
:03:42. > :03:47.by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is
:03:48. > :03:51.inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member
:03:52. > :03:54.states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because
:03:55. > :04:00.that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I
:04:01. > :04:02.think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.
:04:03. > :04:08.Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow
:04:09. > :04:11.setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise
:04:12. > :04:29.Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that
:04:30. > :04:33.doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would
:04:34. > :04:36.be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member
:04:37. > :04:38.states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is
:04:39. > :04:41.effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is
:04:42. > :04:43.not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent
:04:44. > :04:45.but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the
:04:46. > :04:48.Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it
:04:49. > :04:50.ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification
:04:51. > :04:54.process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:
:04:55. > :05:00.Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact
:05:01. > :05:04.that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,
:05:05. > :05:09.there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and
:05:10. > :05:14.quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and
:05:15. > :05:20.disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries
:05:21. > :05:23.celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful
:05:24. > :05:29.movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not
:05:30. > :05:33.there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there
:05:34. > :05:40.now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that
:05:41. > :05:45.we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!
:05:46. > :05:51.I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place
:05:52. > :05:54.envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why
:05:55. > :06:00.people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look
:06:01. > :06:05.at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not
:06:06. > :06:12.possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they
:06:13. > :06:16.will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?
:06:17. > :06:20.I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be
:06:21. > :06:23.surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal
:06:24. > :06:28.decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to
:06:29. > :06:32.buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed
:06:33. > :06:35.and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can
:06:36. > :06:39.happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany
:06:40. > :06:52.which could really result in a change of Government... That is the
:06:53. > :06:55.big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw
:06:56. > :06:58.that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into
:06:59. > :07:00.the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory
:07:01. > :07:03.observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,
:07:04. > :07:07.if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional
:07:08. > :07:11.agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council
:07:12. > :07:14.doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French
:07:15. > :07:18.elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second
:07:19. > :07:25.round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be
:07:26. > :07:29.representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine
:07:30. > :07:33.le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a
:07:34. > :07:37.party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to
:07:38. > :07:42.sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote
:07:43. > :07:45.d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that
:07:46. > :07:51.and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no
:07:52. > :08:04.longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form
:08:05. > :08:07.a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you
:08:08. > :08:10.know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we
:08:11. > :08:13.are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big
:08:14. > :08:15.task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional
:08:16. > :08:19.arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year
:08:20. > :08:23.timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us
:08:24. > :08:27.on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a
:08:28. > :08:30.meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is
:08:31. > :08:35.going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and
:08:36. > :08:38.agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government
:08:39. > :08:42.eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a
:08:43. > :08:47.take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have
:08:48. > :08:51.campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it
:08:52. > :08:54.wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our
:08:55. > :08:59.parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the
:09:00. > :09:03.negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated
:09:04. > :09:06.areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the
:09:07. > :09:12.campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council
:09:13. > :09:18.and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:09:19. > :09:23.You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity
:09:24. > :09:26.for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the
:09:27. > :09:29.Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time
:09:30. > :09:33.devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog
:09:34. > :09:45.about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU
:09:46. > :09:50.march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to
:09:51. > :09:54.Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the
:09:55. > :09:59.European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of
:10:00. > :10:08.national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people
:10:09. > :10:13.like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is
:10:14. > :10:18.for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it
:10:19. > :10:22.happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were
:10:23. > :10:26.lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,
:10:27. > :10:30.if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their
:10:31. > :10:35.minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even
:10:36. > :10:39.begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.
:10:40. > :10:44.Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that
:10:45. > :10:49.credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the
:10:50. > :10:54.Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even
:10:55. > :10:57.then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's
:10:58. > :11:16.interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free
:11:17. > :11:20.movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single
:11:21. > :11:22.market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that
:11:23. > :11:25.outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are
:11:26. > :11:27.pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least
:11:28. > :11:30.let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea
:11:31. > :11:33.of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really
:11:34. > :11:35.did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want
:11:36. > :11:42.external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the
:11:43. > :11:46.momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the
:11:47. > :11:50.banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news
:11:51. > :11:55.was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force
:11:56. > :12:00.from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our
:12:01. > :12:04.resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right
:12:05. > :12:08.that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and
:12:09. > :12:11.that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining
:12:12. > :12:18.movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we
:12:19. > :12:21.will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course
:12:22. > :12:25.those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been
:12:26. > :12:29.such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she
:12:30. > :12:35.blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about
:12:36. > :12:42.this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's
:12:43. > :12:46.job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think
:12:47. > :12:50.you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and
:12:51. > :12:53.everywhere else where there are British citizens would have
:12:54. > :12:56.responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU
:12:57. > :13:00.counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that
:13:01. > :13:04.until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk
:13:05. > :13:09.about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a
:13:10. > :13:13.better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU
:13:14. > :13:17.citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow
:13:18. > :13:20.at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.
:13:21. > :13:22.And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow
:13:23. > :13:23.night from Birmingham - with guests including
:13:24. > :13:26.the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,
:13:27. > :13:28.former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -
:13:29. > :13:34.I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.
:13:35. > :13:37.Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's
:13:38. > :14:44.MUSIC: The Elements by Tom Lehrer
:14:45. > :14:47.# There's Attenborough, micro.bit, The Bottom Line and In Our Time
:14:48. > :14:51.# And Terrific Scientific and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind