:00:37. > :00:41.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:45. > :00:48.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:49. > :00:50.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:51. > :00:56.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:57. > :00:59.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:01:00. > :01:03.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:04. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:09.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:10. > :01:16.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:17. > :01:19.And in the Midlands: It was dubbed "the dementia tax",
:01:20. > :01:22.Do pensioners in marginal seats think the Tory numbers
:01:23. > :01:26.supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering
:01:27. > :01:33.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:34. > :01:35.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:36. > :01:37.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:38. > :01:42.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:43. > :01:50.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:51. > :01:53.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:54. > :01:59.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:02:00. > :02:03.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:04. > :02:08.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:09. > :02:10.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:11. > :02:16.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:17. > :02:18.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:19. > :02:24.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:25. > :02:28.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:29. > :02:31.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:32. > :02:34.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:35. > :02:38.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:39. > :02:47.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:48. > :02:49.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:50. > :02:52.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:53. > :02:54.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:55. > :02:57.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:58. > :03:05.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:06. > :03:11.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:12. > :03:14.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:15. > :03:17.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:18. > :03:20.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:21. > :03:22.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:23. > :03:24.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:25. > :03:27.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:28. > :03:29.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:30. > :03:43.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:44. > :03:48.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:49. > :03:52.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:53. > :03:58.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:59. > :04:03.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:04. > :04:09.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:10. > :04:14.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:15. > :04:17.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:18. > :04:23.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:24. > :04:26.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:27. > :04:37.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:38. > :04:41.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:42. > :04:47.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:48. > :04:50.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:51. > :04:54.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:55. > :04:58.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:04:59. > :05:03.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:04. > :05:06.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:07. > :05:13.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:14. > :05:18.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:19. > :05:24.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:25. > :05:30.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:31. > :05:33.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:34. > :05:37.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:38. > :05:41.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:42. > :05:48.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:49. > :05:52.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:53. > :05:56.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:57. > :06:00.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:01. > :06:05.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:06. > :06:08.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:09. > :06:14.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:15. > :06:17.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:18. > :06:22.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:23. > :06:27.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:28. > :06:32.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:33. > :06:35.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:36. > :06:39.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:40. > :06:48.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:49. > :06:52.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:53. > :06:56.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:57. > :07:02.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:03. > :07:06.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:07. > :07:10.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:11. > :07:14.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:15. > :07:24.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:25. > :07:28.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:29. > :07:33.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:34. > :07:38.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:39. > :07:42.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:43. > :07:47.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:48. > :07:54.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:55. > :07:58.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:59. > :08:03.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:04. > :08:07.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:08. > :08:11.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:12. > :08:17.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:18. > :08:21.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:22. > :08:25.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:26. > :08:29.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:30. > :08:33.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:34. > :08:37.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:38. > :08:40.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:41. > :08:44.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:45. > :08:47.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:48. > :08:54.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:55. > :08:58.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:08:59. > :09:03.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:04. > :09:06.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:07. > :09:11.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:12. > :09:15.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:16. > :09:21.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:22. > :09:24.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:25. > :09:29.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:30. > :09:32.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:33. > :09:37.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:38. > :09:41.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:42. > :09:48.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:49. > :09:53.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:54. > :10:00.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:01. > :10:05.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:06. > :10:10.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:11. > :10:15.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:16. > :10:19.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:20. > :10:23.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:24. > :10:29.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:30. > :10:33.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:34. > :10:36.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:37. > :10:41.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:42. > :10:45.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:46. > :10:49.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:50. > :10:54.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:55. > :10:56.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:57. > :10:58.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:59. > :11:00.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:01. > :11:01.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:02. > :11:04.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:05. > :11:07.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:08. > :11:20.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:21. > :11:26.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:27. > :11:30.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:31. > :11:37.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:38. > :11:40.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:41. > :11:44.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:45. > :11:45.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:46. > :11:47.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:48. > :11:57.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:58. > :12:00.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:01. > :12:04.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:05. > :12:07.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:08. > :12:12.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:13. > :12:19.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:20. > :12:23.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:24. > :12:27.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:28. > :12:32.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:33. > :12:40.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:41. > :12:45.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:46. > :12:54.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:55. > :12:58.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:12:59. > :13:03.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:04. > :13:06.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:07. > :13:11.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:12. > :13:17.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:18. > :13:21.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:22. > :13:28.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:29. > :13:32.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:33. > :13:36.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:37. > :13:41.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:42. > :13:47.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:48. > :13:50.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:51. > :13:57.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:58. > :14:00.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:01. > :14:07.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:08. > :14:12.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:13. > :14:17.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:18. > :14:23.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:24. > :14:27.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:28. > :14:30.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:31. > :14:37.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:38. > :14:40.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:41. > :14:45.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:46. > :14:51.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:52. > :14:55.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:56. > :15:00.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:01. > :15:05.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:06. > :15:09.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:10. > :15:14.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:15. > :15:18.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:19. > :15:23.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:24. > :15:31.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:32. > :15:35.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:36. > :15:40.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:41. > :15:45.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:46. > :15:49.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:50. > :15:52.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:53. > :15:59.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:16:00. > :16:02.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:03. > :16:06.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:07. > :16:09.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:10. > :16:13.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:14. > :16:18.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:19. > :16:21.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:22. > :16:27.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:28. > :16:33.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:34. > :16:37.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:38. > :16:47.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:48. > :16:53.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:54. > :16:58.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:59. > :17:01.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:02. > :17:05.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:06. > :17:09.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:10. > :17:14.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:15. > :17:21.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:22. > :17:25.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:26. > :17:28.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:29. > :17:36.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:37. > :17:39.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:40. > :17:44.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:45. > :17:48.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:49. > :17:53.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:54. > :17:57.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:58. > :18:02.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:03. > :18:15.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:16. > :18:17.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:18. > :18:20.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:21. > :18:23.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:24. > :18:31.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:32. > :18:41.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:42. > :18:46.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:47. > :18:50.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:51. > :18:54.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:55. > :19:02.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:03. > :19:06.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:07. > :19:19.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:20. > :19:24.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:25. > :19:27.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:28. > :19:31.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:32. > :19:35.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:36. > :19:39.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:40. > :19:41.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:42. > :19:45.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:46. > :19:47.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:48. > :19:50.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:51. > :19:53.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:54. > :19:55.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:56. > :19:57.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:58. > :20:10.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:11. > :20:14.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:15. > :20:19.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:20. > :20:23.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:24. > :20:28.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:29. > :20:34.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:35. > :20:38.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:39. > :20:43.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:44. > :20:46.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:47. > :20:53.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:54. > :20:57.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:58. > :21:01.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:02. > :21:08.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:09. > :21:11.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:12. > :21:16.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:17. > :21:22.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:23. > :21:28.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:29. > :21:31.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:32. > :21:36.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:37. > :21:43.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:44. > :21:49.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:50. > :21:52.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:53. > :21:56.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:57. > :22:02.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:03. > :22:06.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:07. > :22:12.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:13. > :22:15.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:16. > :22:19.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:20. > :22:24.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:25. > :22:26.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:27. > :22:33.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:34. > :22:38.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:39. > :22:42.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:43. > :22:47.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:48. > :22:52.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:53. > :22:56.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:57. > :23:03.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:04. > :23:07.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:08. > :23:11.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:12. > :23:17.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:18. > :23:21.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:22. > :23:28.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:29. > :23:37.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:38. > :23:40.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:41. > :23:48.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:49. > :23:51.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:52. > :23:58.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:59. > :24:02.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:03. > :24:08.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:09. > :24:12.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:13. > :24:15.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:16. > :24:20.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:21. > :24:26.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:27. > :24:31.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:32. > :24:35.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:36. > :24:40.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:41. > :24:44.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:45. > :24:49.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:50. > :24:54.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:55. > :25:04.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:05. > :25:10.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:11. > :25:13.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:14. > :25:17.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:18. > :25:25.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:26. > :25:28.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:29. > :25:34.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:35. > :25:40.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:41. > :25:43.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:44. > :25:53.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:54. > :26:01.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:02. > :26:06.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:07. > :26:10.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:11. > :26:15.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:16. > :26:23.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:24. > :26:31.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:32. > :26:36.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:37. > :26:44.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:45. > :26:48.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:49. > :26:52.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:53. > :26:58.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:59. > :27:03.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:04. > :27:09.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:10. > :27:17.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:18. > :27:20.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:21. > :27:26.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:27. > :27:32.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:33. > :27:35.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:36. > :27:43.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:44. > :27:49.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:50. > :27:54.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:55. > :27:58.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:59. > :28:03.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:04. > :28:07.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:08. > :28:11.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:12. > :28:16.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:17. > :28:22.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:23. > :28:34.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:35. > :28:36.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:37. > :28:44.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:45. > :28:47.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:48. > :28:49.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:50. > :28:52.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:53. > :28:53.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:54. > :28:55.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:56. > :28:57.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:58. > :28:59.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:29:00. > :29:02.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:03. > :29:05.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:06. > :29:10.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:11. > :29:28.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:29. > :29:32.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:33. > :29:33.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:34. > :29:40.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:41. > :29:44.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:45. > :29:51.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:52. > :29:55.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:56. > :29:58.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:59. > :30:06.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:07. > :30:10.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:11. > :30:18.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:19. > :30:21.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:22. > :30:25.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:26. > :30:29.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:30. > :30:35.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:36. > :30:45.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:46. > :30:53.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:54. > :31:00.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:01. > :31:03.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:04. > :31:08.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:09. > :31:12.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:13. > :31:15.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:16. > :31:18.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:19. > :31:27.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:28. > :31:30.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:31. > :31:34.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:35. > :31:40.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:41. > :31:45.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:46. > :31:49.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:50. > :31:55.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:56. > :31:59.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:32:00. > :32:06.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:07. > :32:16.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:17. > :32:25.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:26. > :32:32.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:33. > :32:37.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:38. > :32:41.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:42. > :32:46.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:47. > :32:51.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:52. > :32:54.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:55. > :33:00.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:01. > :33:05.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:06. > :33:11.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:12. > :33:17.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:18. > :33:26.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:27. > :33:34.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:35. > :33:38.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:39. > :33:42.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:43. > :33:48.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:49. > :33:51.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:52. > :33:56.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:57. > :34:03.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:04. > :34:07.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:08. > :34:12.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:13. > :34:15.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:16. > :34:18.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:19. > :34:22.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:23. > :34:26.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:27. > :34:28.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:29. > :34:34.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:35. > :34:38.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:39. > :34:44.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:45. > :34:47.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:48. > :34:52.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:53. > :34:57.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:58. > :35:01.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:02. > :35:04.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:05. > :35:09.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:10. > :35:13.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:14. > :35:16.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:17. > :35:22.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:23. > :35:27.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:28. > :35:32.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:33. > :35:38.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:39. > :35:41.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:42. > :35:46.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:47. > :35:51.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:52. > :35:57.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:58. > :35:59.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:36:00. > :36:07.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:08. > :36:14.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:15. > :36:18.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:19. > :36:24.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:25. > :36:28.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:29. > :36:34.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:35. > :36:37.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:38. > :36:44.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:45. > :36:49.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:50. > :36:55.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:56. > :37:00.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:01. > :37:06.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:07. > :37:11.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:12. > :37:18.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:19. > :37:21.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:22. > :37:27.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:28. > :37:33.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:34. > :37:40.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:41. > :37:43.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:44. > :37:46.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:47. > :37:51.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:52. > :37:57.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:58. > :38:02.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:03. > :38:06.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:07. > :38:13.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:14. > :38:18.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:19. > :38:23.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:24. > :38:27.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:28. > :38:31.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:32. > :38:35.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:36. > :38:41.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:42. > :38:44.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:45. > :38:48.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:49. > :38:51.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:52. > :38:53.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:54. > :38:55.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:56. > :38:57.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:58. > :39:10.Hello again. minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:11. > :39:12.Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.
:39:13. > :39:14.First it was dubbed "the dementia tax".
:39:15. > :39:21.Do pensioners in a Conservative marginal think the party's numbers
:39:22. > :39:23.add-up on social care now Theresa May's promising to limit
:39:24. > :39:30.what they'd have to pay to be cared for at home?
:39:31. > :39:39.Khalid Mahmood for Labour and Marcus Jones for the Conservatives.
:39:40. > :39:42.They were both MPs in the last Parliament and they're both bidding
:39:43. > :39:47.And we'll hear how the Liberal Democrats hope to regain at least
:39:48. > :39:52.some of the ground they lost two years ago.
:39:53. > :39:55.But we begin, of course, with the aftermath of those terrible
:39:56. > :40:04.And here, too, we've seen armed police patrols at public buildings,
:40:05. > :40:06.in shopping centres and on trains, although the downgrading
:40:07. > :40:08.of the threat-level should see a slight easing on this,
:40:09. > :40:14.Inevitably, terrorism, and what's to be done about it,
:40:15. > :40:20.has ratcheted-up the pre-election agenda, with the parties
:40:21. > :40:24.trading blows over policing and the Prevent strategy
:40:25. > :40:32.Incidentally, Khalid Mahmood has defended that Prevent strategy,
:40:33. > :40:33.while senior Labour figures including Jeremy Corbyn
:40:34. > :40:35.and the Mayor of Manchester, Andy Burnham, have been
:40:36. > :40:46.We hear that the Home Secretary plans to give Prevent an uplift,
:40:47. > :40:51.speaking as directly as you do for the Muslim community. Why do you
:40:52. > :40:56.think the Government should persevere with Prevent? It's a
:40:57. > :40:59.mechanism that we'd started and a mechanism that we deal with people
:41:00. > :41:05.and communicate with people. I think there are issues that we have used
:41:06. > :41:09.to deal with it. What about the stigmatisation of a whole community?
:41:10. > :41:13.What needs to be addresses how we address the mainstream Muslim
:41:14. > :41:18.community. Part of the problem is we have dealt with small bits of the
:41:19. > :41:22.community but overall it is setting up helplines some people can report
:41:23. > :41:28.things at a local and national level. This is the criticism we have
:41:29. > :41:32.heard against it from senior figures, that it stigmatises and
:41:33. > :41:37.create suspicion over an entire community, most of whom are
:41:38. > :41:40.law-abiding, decent people. We can forget this was a despicable act of
:41:41. > :41:45.terrorism and my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and
:41:46. > :41:53.their families, but as Theresa May has said today, enough is enough. We
:41:54. > :41:56.can't see this continue to disrupt our British way of life including
:41:57. > :42:03.all communities across this country and quite rightly we are going to
:42:04. > :42:07.lift the Prevent strategy to include all parts of the community. But as
:42:08. > :42:11.the Police Federation said during the week, how can you call yourself
:42:12. > :42:17.the party of law and order when you reduce police numbers by something
:42:18. > :42:24.over 10,000, 20,000? Weed in the process at the moment of recruiting
:42:25. > :42:32.and bringing forward 1900 counterterrorist officers -- we are
:42:33. > :42:38.in the process. What I would say is it's really important we do have the
:42:39. > :42:42.security services we need. It's very disappointing to see the real Labour
:42:43. > :42:46.Party wanted is buying things like MI5. 1900 police officers and armed
:42:47. > :42:49.officers were cut but the key to all this is the community support
:42:50. > :42:54.officers and those on the ground every day. They get a huge amount of
:42:55. > :42:58.intelligence. By cutting them to the bone like the Government has done
:42:59. > :43:03.that has had a huge effect. Are forces in this area are starting to
:43:04. > :43:06.recruit and uplift more officers. We got rid of a huge amount of
:43:07. > :43:10.experienced people and now we have to start again. That's where the
:43:11. > :43:13.problem is, we've lost all on experience. We need those eyes and
:43:14. > :43:18.ears on the ground to be able to come back to us. Are you
:43:19. > :43:22.acknowledging, Marcus, that it was a mistake? I don't disagree beneath
:43:23. > :43:26.the eyes and ears on the ground. Changes have had to be major to the
:43:27. > :43:34.massive deficit that was left behind by the previous Government but we
:43:35. > :43:38.are now bringing from 1900 officers. Counterintelligence because we need
:43:39. > :43:42.to make sure that we're doing all we can to foil these terror plots and
:43:43. > :43:47.the problem is that the terrorists only need to be lucky once. We need
:43:48. > :43:51.to be lucky all the time. Can the Muslim communities themselves do
:43:52. > :43:56.more to combat radicalisation? The community needs to do that and they
:43:57. > :43:59.do. We sometimes hold ourselves hostage by a small minority of
:44:00. > :44:00.people and we need to break through them and the mainstream community
:44:01. > :44:02.needs to come out. The first party to resume
:44:03. > :44:04.political hostilities Their leader, Paul Nuttall,
:44:05. > :44:10.told me it was "an act of defiance" The vast majority of Muslims
:44:11. > :44:16.were law-abiding, but he said I reminded him the West Midlands
:44:17. > :44:22.Ukip MEP, Jim Carver, had resigned as foreign affairs
:44:23. > :44:24.spokesman because he "strongly disagreed" with their "misguided"
:44:25. > :44:32.call for a so-called "burqa ban". I don't actually agree with Jim
:44:33. > :44:36.on this, and Jim are great friends, we go back many, many years,
:44:37. > :44:39.but we're not just talking about face coverings of Muslims,
:44:40. > :44:42.we're talking about face coverings in general so if you turn up
:44:43. > :44:45.at an EDL march or an EDL rally and you cover your face,
:44:46. > :44:50.that should be illegal as well, but the one point I will make
:44:51. > :44:54.is that this is all about community cohesion and if you want to enjoy
:44:55. > :44:58.the full fruits of our brilliant society, you have to be prepared
:44:59. > :45:01.to show your face because it precludes you from communicating
:45:02. > :45:06.with people, it preclude you from taking up certain jobs,
:45:07. > :45:10.but also it's about security as well because, whether we like it or not,
:45:11. > :45:13.we're the most watched people in the world,
:45:14. > :45:15.there's more CCTV per head in Britain than anywhere else
:45:16. > :45:18.on the planet and for that to be effective, you need
:45:19. > :45:21.to see people's faces. Put all this together and does it
:45:22. > :45:24.not amount to basically stigmatising the Muslim community,
:45:25. > :45:27.the vast, vast majority of whom condemn terrorism as strongly
:45:28. > :45:32.as anybody possibly could? Absolutely, and the vast
:45:33. > :45:34.majority of Muslims in this country are peace-loving,
:45:35. > :45:36.they love this country, they add to our economy
:45:37. > :45:45.and they're great people. There is a small section within that
:45:46. > :45:48.community that are a problem, the Islamic fundamentalists,
:45:49. > :45:50.and they are the people Do you agree with your affairs
:45:51. > :45:55.spokeswoman that some conservative mosques should be closed
:45:56. > :45:56.down and shut? I think we should be looking
:45:57. > :46:01.at the funding of certain mosques, like Saudi funding of mosques
:46:02. > :46:03.could be a problem because we know that Saudi Arabia spreads
:46:04. > :46:05.fundamentalism around the globe. We have a problem with a small
:46:06. > :46:10.number of people within that community and I encourage the Muslim
:46:11. > :46:15.community itself to report these people to the police
:46:16. > :46:19.because what we've got to do is to cut this cancer out
:46:20. > :46:22.of our society because if we don't, pretty soon, the next attack
:46:23. > :46:27.could well be round the corner. And we're also joined
:46:28. > :46:29.here today by John Hemming, who served for ten years
:46:30. > :46:33.as the Liberal Democrat MP for Yardley in Birmingham,
:46:34. > :46:45.until Labour won it two years ago. John, if you have long experience of
:46:46. > :46:48.Birmingham's politics, you read a Liberal Democrat leader on the
:46:49. > :46:51.council before you became an MP and so you know the areas of the inner
:46:52. > :46:55.city where the Liberal Democrats have built a measure of support.
:46:56. > :46:59.From your perspective, how do you see issues that we've been touching
:47:00. > :47:04.on today? We're missing an important point in all this. When I was deputy
:47:05. > :47:08.leader of the Council, I work closely with the faith leaders group
:47:09. > :47:14.and as MPI had a local multi-faith group and there is an important
:47:15. > :47:17.grassroots approach. I have a statement from a local mosque
:47:18. > :47:20.received, we condemn this criminal action and we hope the perpetrators
:47:21. > :47:25.are brought to justice, wherever they may be. We urge everyone to
:47:26. > :47:29.stand shoulder to shoulder, United to eliminate all kinds of terrorism,
:47:30. > :47:35.extremism and barbarism from our society. We would all agree with
:47:36. > :47:40.that and I think I could get the others to sit with me on a platform
:47:41. > :47:43.arguing for a grassroots revulsion, rejection of the idea that it is
:47:44. > :47:50.acceptable to murder children because that's what it's about. It's
:47:51. > :47:53.not about a little bit of money here and there, it's fundamentally wrong
:47:54. > :48:00.to do this sort of thing and we need to say that and encourage those
:48:01. > :48:05.people in my constituency. Mosques speak out. We need to encourage that
:48:06. > :48:09.as a grassroots uprising against terrorism. Does Paul Nuttall have a
:48:10. > :48:15.point that the two big parties need to speak a more direct terms rather
:48:16. > :48:20.than pious platitudes and hand-wringing that we often get? I
:48:21. > :48:28.read a column today about Prevent and I made it clear that the Muslim
:48:29. > :48:32.community can help to move forward. Tom Watson and I visited a number of
:48:33. > :48:39.mosques and in all of those mosques there was a clear statement from the
:48:40. > :48:42.pulpit saying we condemn this. Theresa May has used very strong
:48:43. > :48:46.language and despite the fact you have a clip from Tom Nuttall -- Paul
:48:47. > :48:52.Nuttall, there is a massive choice in this election, if you want
:48:53. > :48:57.Theresa May running the country, she has been at the G-7 this week
:48:58. > :49:03.persuading the G-7 countries to take far more action against Internet
:49:04. > :49:07.providers that don't stamp out radicalisation and Jeremy Corbyn who
:49:08. > :49:15.has a despicable record of voting against anti-terror legislation. One
:49:16. > :49:23.particular point, the idea of banning Islamic faith is -- Islamic
:49:24. > :49:26.face coverings. That's nonsense, it's a religious right and people
:49:27. > :49:30.should be able to exercise it. You will not create more integration by
:49:31. > :49:35.banning it because the women who want to exercise it will stay at
:49:36. > :49:38.home and how is that integrating? Where there is a need for checks to
:49:39. > :49:41.take place for security purposes, that should happen and that's it.
:49:42. > :49:44.As political climb-downs go, the Conservatives' backtrack
:49:45. > :49:47.on the so-called dementia tax after just four days is among
:49:48. > :49:53.Instead of forcing elderly people who need care at home to be liable
:49:54. > :49:55.for potentially unlimited sums, Theresa May hurriedly promised those
:49:56. > :50:05.But will the cap fit, with the voters?
:50:06. > :50:08.Shelley Phelps has been testing pensioners' opinions in that
:50:09. > :50:17."weather vane" constituency of Nuneaton in Warwickshire.
:50:18. > :50:29.This building has been at the heart of the old mining community
:50:30. > :50:32.in Chapel Hill since the 1920s, first as a cinema and
:50:33. > :50:34.Nuneaton is a marginal Conservative-held constituency,
:50:35. > :50:36.so I've come here to see if pensioners understand
:50:37. > :50:48.Erm, they want to cap it, they want to take so much off.
:50:49. > :50:55.The Conservatives are making a right muck of it.
:50:56. > :50:58.You could forgive them for being confused.
:50:59. > :51:01.On Tuesday, the Prime Minister was accused of being weak and wobbly
:51:02. > :51:04.after she appeared to U-turn on her party's social care manifesto
:51:05. > :51:08.This manifesto says that we will come forward
:51:09. > :51:10.but the consultation paper, the Government green paper,
:51:11. > :51:15.and that consultation will include an absolute limit on the amount that
:51:16. > :51:22.people have to pay for their care costs.
:51:23. > :51:24.No mention of a cap or limit in here.
:51:25. > :51:26.Labour said the numbers don't add up.
:51:27. > :51:28.They haven't said what the cap is, they haven't explained
:51:29. > :51:30.to the millions of people who are desperately worried
:51:31. > :51:33.at the moment about what kind of care they're going
:51:34. > :51:36.This is a Government in chaos and confusion.
:51:37. > :51:39.Under the current system, if you need care at home you'll pay
:51:40. > :51:42.the cost of it in full if you have savings and assets worth
:51:43. > :51:45.Now, that doesn't include the value of your home.
:51:46. > :51:46.Under the new Conservative manifesto proposals,
:51:47. > :51:49.the value of your home will be included in a means test,
:51:50. > :51:53.but you're guaranteed to keep at least ?100,000.
:51:54. > :52:01.She has carers in four times a day and her son Brian
:52:02. > :52:06.Because the care Ivy receives is predominantly social,
:52:07. > :52:08.such as help with washing, dressing and eating, it's
:52:09. > :52:15.If she had another condition such as cancer, she would
:52:16. > :52:23.You buy your own home, you save and everything else,
:52:24. > :52:26.then when you get to the point where you need help,
:52:27. > :52:32.The Foys are just one family so how popular is the Conservatives' social
:52:33. > :52:38.It's certainly more popular, for instance, than the suggested
:52:39. > :52:40.changes to school meals, but what's important about this
:52:41. > :52:42.particular manifesto is not support for the specific policy,
:52:43. > :52:48.but instead how that informed people's views and gained momentum
:52:49. > :52:51.and produced negative feedback about the way the Conservatives
:52:52. > :52:53.and the Government were handling the whole situation.
:52:54. > :52:59.Back at the bingo, these voters had a mixed reaction.
:53:00. > :53:04.Yes, it would be nice if everybody could have the Government pay
:53:05. > :53:06.for their care, but that's not going to happen, is it?
:53:07. > :53:10.If you own your own house you've paid for all your life,
:53:11. > :53:16.I won't be voting for Theresa May either, because she's not
:53:17. > :53:21.Is that the only reason you're not voting for her?
:53:22. > :53:27.Theresa May might be a popular leader, but her social care policy
:53:28. > :53:31.isn't hitting the jackpot with voters here.
:53:32. > :53:34.Shelley Phelps reporting from Nuneaton.
:53:35. > :53:36.It's the constituency in which Marcus Jones is now
:53:37. > :53:47.The problem here is that you talk about a cap but really that doesn't
:53:48. > :53:54.have much meaning to anybody unless you specify when exactly is going to
:53:55. > :53:58.be set. You got a look at both sides of the situation. The reporter
:53:59. > :54:06.mentioned facility care but didn't mention care homes where the
:54:07. > :54:11.property is taken into account right down to ?23,000. We want to allow
:54:12. > :54:15.people to keep 100,000 but we're saying we will provide a cap and
:54:16. > :54:20.this is not inconsistent with what have said for some time after the
:54:21. > :54:25.budget where we said we were going to bring forward the opportunity for
:54:26. > :54:30.councils to have an extra ?9 billion in social care. But what is the
:54:31. > :54:35.right figure for the cap? We are bringing a Green paper forward and
:54:36. > :54:48.within it we will specify what the B. ?100,000... There are accusations
:54:49. > :54:53.of intergenerational unfairness were younger people pay on unfair
:54:54. > :54:58.percentage of the burden and where older people should be paying more
:54:59. > :55:00.of it. You pay to your national insurance contributions and that
:55:01. > :55:04.goes for you when you become all that as well. As part of a social
:55:05. > :55:08.plan that all of us contribute and people get older and we move on and
:55:09. > :55:10.cycle moves on, it's not about saying, those people are now old and
:55:11. > :55:15.young people don't need to look after them, that's not the society I
:55:16. > :55:19.want and what Theresa May has done is arrogance to the extreme wishy is
:55:20. > :55:22.taking lunches away from young people and houses away from the
:55:23. > :55:30.other way. What is a Liberal Democrat answer which is fair but
:55:31. > :55:39.sustainable in the long term? You have to look at the IFS figures, the
:55:40. > :55:43.Institute for Fiscal Studies. The website is available to look up.
:55:44. > :55:52.Other proposals seem to be sustainable in the medium to long
:55:53. > :55:57.term. It's a cap of 72,000, but the point of it is that people have paid
:55:58. > :56:01.taxes all of their lives and is it reasonable to say, well, now we're
:56:02. > :56:07.going to take it all off of you when you're old and you certainly end up
:56:08. > :56:14.with Alzheimer's? ?100,000 is quite a lot of money. I do think the fact
:56:15. > :56:21.that Theresa May has said there are no -- there is no clarity about the
:56:22. > :56:24.cap, we're now in an election. If the cap was ?1 million it would be a
:56:25. > :56:30.different ball game. Looking at the politics of this, I think it could
:56:31. > :56:34.be damaging to Theresa May. MLB heard that the spell of her
:56:35. > :56:41.leadership order has been broken -- earlier we heard. The man dubbed by
:56:42. > :56:46.the press to the Birmingham Rasputin was the architect of this particular
:56:47. > :56:50.provision. Would she inevitably be lined up as the fall guy for this?
:56:51. > :56:57.At the end of the day we're fighting an election and it not great to have
:56:58. > :57:05.an autopsy about what goes right or wrong during a campaign. He thought
:57:06. > :57:09.it up, "Assistant heads will roll." The Prime Minister has been right to
:57:10. > :57:15.raise this issue, it's a fundamental social issue by people's feedback is
:57:16. > :57:19.people who do work can't do right people who do work can't do right
:57:20. > :57:22.thing and have savings and get their own property, it is right that they
:57:23. > :57:25.have a degree of protection but it's also right that we support the most
:57:26. > :57:29.vulnerable in society. You cannot vulnerable in society. You cannot
:57:30. > :57:41.have older people cast doubt on the street. It's arrogance on the part
:57:42. > :57:47.of President May. That's what she did and she's is gritty take
:57:48. > :57:54.responsibility -- she is going to take. Considering the Liberal
:57:55. > :57:58.Democrats' position of trying to regain lost ground, Cheltenham is
:57:59. > :58:03.the top target in this part of the country on the basis of swing, but
:58:04. > :58:09.on the basis of the Shire elections, there is no evidence the Liberal
:58:10. > :58:17.Democrats are going to regain the ground. On the 26 elections -- 2016
:58:18. > :58:20.elections we got the majority of the vote saw indications are we going to
:58:21. > :58:24.regain Yardley but the fact Theresa May is fighting an election where
:58:25. > :58:30.she would tell people what the social care plan is is worrying a
:58:31. > :58:35.lot of elderly people. Is the Liberal Democrat voice being
:58:36. > :58:37.squeezed out? The you squeeze me out in the programme because you
:58:38. > :58:42.prevented me from debating various issues. The BBC is explicitly
:58:43. > :58:46.squeezing us out from debate as you saw earlier. That is another
:58:47. > :58:50.conversation. We'll have an interview with your party leader
:58:51. > :58:52.next week for the programme. Thank you for being with us here today.
:58:53. > :58:54.Despite the pause in political hostilities following the Manchester
:58:55. > :58:58.concert attack, there are still some developments to catch-up
:58:59. > :59:02.This week's round-up in 60 Seconds is brought to us
:59:03. > :59:09.There was a minute's silence for the victims of the Manchester
:59:10. > :59:11.bomb before the colourful parade got underway for the thousands attending
:59:12. > :59:18.Sad news from Herefordshire after the announcement
:59:19. > :59:21.of the death of Paul Keetch, the former Liberal Democrat MP for
:59:22. > :59:29.Back on the campaign trail and the Shadow Foreign Secretary
:59:30. > :59:32.was on the patch getting the Labour message across in those Midlands
:59:33. > :59:34.marginals in Newcastle-under-Lyme, Birmingham and Wolverhampton.
:59:35. > :59:36.I think things are beginning to turn.
:59:37. > :59:39.We have another two weeks but I think people are beginning
:59:40. > :59:42.to realise that the Conservatives did not have a vision
:59:43. > :59:49.Former Birmingham City Councillor and Respect leader Salma Yaqoob
:59:50. > :59:53.has also been busy - she's hoping to make a comeback
:59:54. > :59:57.as the next independent MP for Bradford West.
:59:58. > :00:00.And forget the opinion polls - if you want to know the result
:00:01. > :00:03.election, just head to this sweet shop in Warwick.
:00:04. > :00:06.Punters here correctly picked the winner of the last election
:00:07. > :00:21.So now we know, it all comes down to a sweet tooth, maybe I've been
:00:22. > :00:24.wasting my time all these years! But Emily Thornberry thinks things are
:00:25. > :00:26.turning but we had John Curtis the polling expert earlier in the
:00:27. > :00:32.programme saying beneath the headline narrowing the maybe still
:00:33. > :00:35.areas like the Midlands where Conservatives are hanging on to
:00:36. > :00:40.support were the most need it will Labour's support might be growing in
:00:41. > :00:43.the areas where you least need it. The election will tell that but at
:00:44. > :00:46.the end of the day if you look at what the Tories put in a manifesto,
:00:47. > :00:50.the way they are pushing people with austerity in terms of police cuts
:00:51. > :00:54.and other cuts that are coming through, people are realising that
:00:55. > :00:57.an Labour Party has produced a manifesto which means supporting all
:00:58. > :01:01.of our services and a different option to what the Conservatives are
:01:02. > :01:11.proposing. If the Conservatives don't get a majority of over 80,
:01:12. > :01:15.Theresa May's talk of a strong hand will be for nothing, won't it? We
:01:16. > :01:18.only care about the election day itself. There are 11 days and the
:01:19. > :01:28.bottom line is people have a very straight choice. People have got to
:01:29. > :01:31.choose between the strong leadership of Theresa May and has a plan to
:01:32. > :01:36.take us forward out of the EU on a coalition based on chaos with Jeremy
:01:37. > :01:37.Corbyn as people who want to stay with the EU.
:01:38. > :01:39.My thanks to Khalid Mahmood and Marcus Jones.
:01:40. > :01:41.Finally from me, a word about a special Midlands Today
:01:42. > :01:43.debate show I'll be presenting this week.
:01:44. > :01:46.Election 2017: Where You Live is on Tuesday evening at 10:45pm,
:01:47. > :01:49.immediately after the news here on BBC One.
:01:50. > :01:51.Leading figures from our five biggest parties will be
:01:52. > :01:56.going head-to-head, in front of a studio audience.
:01:57. > :02:02.This, though, is where we rejoin Jo Coburn.
:02:03. > :02:05.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:06. > :02:19.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:20. > :02:27.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:28. > :02:30.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:31. > :02:36.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:37. > :02:41.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:42. > :02:45.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:46. > :02:52.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:53. > :02:58.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:59. > :03:01.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:02. > :03:06.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:07. > :03:11.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:12. > :03:16.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:17. > :03:25.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:26. > :03:28.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:29. > :03:33.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:34. > :03:41.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:42. > :03:48.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:49. > :03:52.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:53. > :03:56.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:57. > :04:01.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:02. > :04:07.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:08. > :04:15.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:16. > :04:19.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:20. > :04:23.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:24. > :04:30.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:31. > :04:35.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:36. > :04:42.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:43. > :04:49.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:50. > :04:55.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:56. > :05:02.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:03. > :05:07.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:08. > :05:14.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:15. > :05:18.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:19. > :05:24.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:25. > :05:27.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:28. > :05:33.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:34. > :05:40.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:41. > :05:44.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:45. > :05:50.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:51. > :05:55.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:56. > :05:59.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:06:00. > :06:03.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:04. > :06:07.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:08. > :06:15.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:16. > :06:21.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:22. > :06:26.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:27. > :06:31.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:32. > :06:35.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:36. > :06:41.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:42. > :06:47.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:48. > :06:51.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:52. > :06:55.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:56. > :06:59.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:07:00. > :07:03.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:04. > :07:07.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:08. > :07:11.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:12. > :07:18.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:19. > :07:23.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:24. > :07:27.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:28. > :07:30.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:31. > :07:35.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:36. > :07:40.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:41. > :07:43.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:44. > :07:47.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:48. > :07:52.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:53. > :07:59.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:08:00. > :08:09.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:10. > :08:12.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:13. > :08:20.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:21. > :08:24.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:25. > :08:30.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:31. > :08:37.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:38. > :08:41.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:42. > :08:46.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:47. > :08:52.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:53. > :08:57.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:58. > :09:03.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:04. > :09:06.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:07. > :09:10.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:11. > :09:15.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:16. > :09:22.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:23. > :09:26.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:27. > :09:31.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:32. > :09:36.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:37. > :09:40.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:41. > :09:44.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:45. > :09:49.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:50. > :09:53.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:54. > :09:56.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:57. > :10:02.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:03. > :10:07.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:08. > :10:12.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:13. > :10:14.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:15. > :10:21.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:22. > :10:25.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:26. > :10:31.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:32. > :10:36.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:37. > :10:43.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:44. > :10:46.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:47. > :10:53.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:54. > :10:57.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:58. > :11:02.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:03. > :11:08.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:09. > :11:11.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:12. > :11:17.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:18. > :11:23.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:24. > :11:28.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:29. > :11:34.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:35. > :11:45.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:46. > :11:50.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:51. > :12:02.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:03. > :12:08.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:09. > :12:11.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:12. > :12:15.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:16. > :12:20.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:21. > :12:23.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:24. > :12:30.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:31. > :12:37.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:38. > :12:45.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:46. > :12:48.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:49. > :12:53.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:54. > :12:58.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:59. > :13:02.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:03. > :13:06.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:07. > :13:12.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:13. > :13:18.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:19. > :13:23.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:24. > :13:30.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:31. > :13:34.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:35. > :14:09.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.
:14:10. > :14:12.As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them
:14:13. > :14:22.the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.
:14:23. > :14:23.One minute to get the food on the plate.
:14:24. > :14:28...team them up with a Michelin starred chef,
:14:29. > :14:29.putting their reputation on the line.
:14:30. > :14:36...which team will have the recipe for success?
:14:37. > :14:39.One minute to get the food on the plate.