05/11/2017

0:00:37 > 0:00:39Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:41 > 0:00:44And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:44 > 0:00:45of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:45 > 0:00:48On today's show:

0:00:48 > 0:00:50Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:50 > 0:00:57police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:57 > 0:01:00He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:00 > 0:01:02With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:02 > 0:01:05can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:05 > 0:01:07to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:07 > 0:01:11the entire political class?

0:01:11 > 0:01:17We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:17 > 0:01:22And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:22 > 0:01:24And in the Midlands, winter is coming.

0:01:24 > 0:01:26Are our hospitals prepared

0:01:26 > 0:01:29or will patients wait on trolleys in corridors for hours on end?

0:01:29 > 0:01:31Some answers, we hope, in half an hour.

0:01:44 > 0:01:46So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:46 > 0:01:48to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:48 > 0:01:51and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:51 > 0:01:53a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:53 > 0:01:54gunpowder and treason.

0:01:54 > 0:01:56It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:56 > 0:02:00So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:00 > 0:02:08Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:08 > 0:02:11in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:11 > 0:02:12left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:14 > 0:02:16investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:16 > 0:02:19of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:19 > 0:02:21police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:21 > 0:02:23office in 2008.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:25 > 0:02:27police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:27 > 0:02:35and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:35 > 0:02:37Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:37 > 0:02:40over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:40 > 0:02:45he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:45 > 0:02:47Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:47 > 0:02:54misconduct allegations.

0:02:54 > 0:02:57This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:57 > 0:02:59on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:02:59 > 0:03:07Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:07 > 0:03:10And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:10 > 0:03:13with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:13 > 0:03:14of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:14 > 0:03:17Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:17 > 0:03:20she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:20 > 0:03:22against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:22 > 0:03:29Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:29 > 0:03:33terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:33 > 0:03:36that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:36 > 0:03:44better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:44 > 0:03:47respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:47 > 0:03:53can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:53 > 0:03:57Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:57 > 0:04:05morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:05 > 0:04:08issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:08 > 0:04:12is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:12 > 0:04:16makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:16 > 0:04:19Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:19 > 0:04:22actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:22 > 0:04:25deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:25 > 0:04:37terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:37 > 0:04:41that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:41 > 0:04:47bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:47 > 0:04:50political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:50 > 0:04:53allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:53 > 0:04:58being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:58 > 0:05:02were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:02 > 0:05:07the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:07 > 0:05:10strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:10 > 0:05:15clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:15 > 0:05:19beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:19 > 0:05:22whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:22 > 0:05:26relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:26 > 0:05:32rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:32 > 0:05:35of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:35 > 0:05:41moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:41 > 0:05:45bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:45 > 0:05:48do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:48 > 0:05:52not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:52 > 0:05:58computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:58 > 0:06:03would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:03 > 0:06:15be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:15 > 0:06:19Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:19 > 0:06:25It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:25 > 0:06:29without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:29 > 0:06:34scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:34 > 0:06:38Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:38 > 0:06:45suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:45 > 0:06:49may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:49 > 0:06:51alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:51 > 0:06:55in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:55 > 0:06:58meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:58 > 0:07:02there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:02 > 0:07:06Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:06 > 0:07:09and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:09 > 0:07:12every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:12 > 0:07:17her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:17 > 0:07:21she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:21 > 0:07:24support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:24 > 0:07:28Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:28 > 0:07:31inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:31 > 0:07:37the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:37 > 0:07:40the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:40 > 0:07:4310,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:43 > 0:07:47work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:47 > 0:07:50regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:50 > 0:08:00House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:00 > 0:08:02actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:02 > 0:08:07point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:07 > 0:08:10the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:10 > 0:08:15it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:15 > 0:08:19sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:19 > 0:08:23interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:23 > 0:08:28between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:28 > 0:08:33chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:33 > 0:08:38at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:38 > 0:08:42the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:42 > 0:08:48Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:48 > 0:08:49they might be regulated.

0:08:49 > 0:08:51Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:51 > 0:08:54about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:54 > 0:08:57to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:57 > 0:08:58counterparts this week.

0:08:58 > 0:09:00We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:00 > 0:09:03she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:03 > 0:09:06Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:06 > 0:09:09talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:09 > 0:09:13but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:13 > 0:09:16Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:16 > 0:09:19morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:19 > 0:09:26should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:26 > 0:09:31has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:31 > 0:09:37is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:37 > 0:09:39ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:39 > 0:09:44properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:44 > 0:09:48that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:48 > 0:09:54investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:54 > 0:09:59and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:09:59 > 0:10:03important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:03 > 0:10:05test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:05 > 0:10:10swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:10 > 0:10:14exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:14 > 0:10:18things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:18 > 0:10:22range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:22 > 0:10:26Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:26 > 0:10:31environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:31 > 0:10:33or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:33 > 0:10:38knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:38 > 0:10:40transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:40 > 0:10:45bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:45 > 0:10:50Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:50 > 0:10:55the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:55 > 0:11:03can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:03 > 0:11:07House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:07 > 0:11:13well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:13 > 0:11:17thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:17 > 0:11:23that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:23 > 0:11:27Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:27 > 0:11:31year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:31 > 0:11:35of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:35 > 0:11:38it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:38 > 0:11:45experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:45 > 0:11:48yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:48 > 0:11:52certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:52 > 0:11:57as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:57 > 0:12:03about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:03 > 0:12:06authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:06 > 0:12:14people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:14 > 0:12:17misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:17 > 0:12:22brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:22 > 0:12:26in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:26 > 0:12:30didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:30 > 0:12:36hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:36 > 0:12:40flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:40 > 0:12:47of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:47 > 0:12:50the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:50 > 0:12:54urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:54 > 0:12:57have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:57 > 0:13:01do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:01 > 0:13:04clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:04 > 0:13:11right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:11 > 0:13:16and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:16 > 0:13:20perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:20 > 0:13:24sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:24 > 0:13:29companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:29 > 0:13:34use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:34 > 0:13:38find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:38 > 0:13:41of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:41 > 0:13:48politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:48 > 0:13:51companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:51 > 0:13:55this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:55 > 0:13:59with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:13:59 > 0:14:05step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:05 > 0:14:10are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:14 > 0:14:18terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:18 > 0:14:21and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:21 > 0:14:27make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:27 > 0:14:31the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:31 > 0:14:35children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:35 > 0:14:41of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:41 > 0:14:45the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:45 > 0:14:47undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:47 > 0:14:51justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:51 > 0:14:55support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:55 > 0:14:59prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:59 > 0:15:03need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:03 > 0:15:05us today.

0:15:05 > 0:15:07Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:07 > 0:15:12saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:12 > 0:15:14of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:14 > 0:15:16And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:16 > 0:15:19when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:19 > 0:15:21newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:21 > 0:15:25Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:25 > 0:15:27It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:27 > 0:15:30of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:30 > 0:15:32is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:32 > 0:15:35making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:35 > 0:15:37of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:37 > 0:15:40greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:40 > 0:15:46to work with them.

0:15:46 > 0:15:49Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:49 > 0:15:51at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:51 > 0:15:53The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:53 > 0:15:55in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:55 > 0:15:57is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:57 > 0:15:58over the next ten years.

0:15:58 > 0:16:00The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:00 > 0:16:03which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:03 > 0:16:05while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:05 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:12And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:12 > 0:16:14what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:14 > 0:16:16and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:16 > 0:16:17like Trident and Nato.

0:16:17 > 0:16:19Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:19 > 0:16:23secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:23 > 0:16:25Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:25 > 0:16:30secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:30 > 0:16:35Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:35 > 0:16:38same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:38 > 0:16:43spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:43 > 0:16:48and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:48 > 0:16:54of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:54 > 0:16:57Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:57 > 0:17:01really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:01 > 0:17:05spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:05 > 0:17:09Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:09 > 0:17:13cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:13 > 0:17:18more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:18 > 0:17:23In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:23 > 0:17:26McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:26 > 0:17:32using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:32 > 0:17:36Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:36 > 0:17:42it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:42 > 0:17:47whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:47 > 0:17:50they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:50 > 0:17:55pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:55 > 0:17:58on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:58 > 0:18:01Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:01 > 0:18:06Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:06 > 0:18:11about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:11 > 0:18:16last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:16 > 0:18:21very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:21 > 0:18:25and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:25 > 0:18:30commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:30 > 0:18:35In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:35 > 0:18:39extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:39 > 0:18:43calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:43 > 0:18:48are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:48 > 0:18:52kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:52 > 0:18:56are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:56 > 0:19:01a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:01 > 0:19:07spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:07 > 0:19:12way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:12 > 0:19:16pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:16 > 0:19:21about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:21 > 0:19:24current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:24 > 0:19:29overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:29 > 0:19:34at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:34 > 0:19:40they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:40 > 0:19:47£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:47 > 0:19:51it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:51 > 0:19:57rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:57 > 0:20:01make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:01 > 0:20:04been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:04 > 0:20:10on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:10 > 0:20:14weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:14 > 0:20:19already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:19 > 0:20:22The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:22 > 0:20:28there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:28 > 0:20:33treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:33 > 0:20:39incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:39 > 0:20:44to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:44 > 0:20:48missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:48 > 0:20:53nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:53 > 0:20:57that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:57 > 0:21:00somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:00 > 0:21:05world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:05 > 0:21:09proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:09 > 0:21:15who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:21have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:21 > 0:21:25disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:25 > 0:21:29else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:29 > 0:21:34have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:34 > 0:21:39will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:39 > 0:21:44need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:44 > 0:21:48multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:48 > 0:21:50eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:50 > 0:21:54to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:54 > 0:21:58I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:58 > 0:22:03aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:03 > 0:22:08from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:08 > 0:22:13understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:13 > 0:22:17Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:17 > 0:22:21use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:21 > 0:22:26disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:26 > 0:22:29Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:29 > 0:22:33know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:33 > 0:22:39it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:39 > 0:22:44changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:44 > 0:22:49Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:49 > 0:22:53is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:53 > 0:22:56Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:56 > 0:23:00in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:00 > 0:23:04position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:04 > 0:23:08that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:08 > 0:23:12stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:12 > 0:23:17sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:17 > 0:23:21Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:21 > 0:23:24your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:24 > 0:23:29whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:29 > 0:23:33Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:33 > 0:23:35why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:35 > 0:23:40important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:40 > 0:23:45happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:45 > 0:23:50position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:50 > 0:23:57has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:57 > 0:24:01has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:01 > 0:24:05the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:05 > 0:24:09have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:09 > 0:24:15did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:15 > 0:24:20speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:20 > 0:24:24information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:24 > 0:24:27who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:27 > 0:24:31be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:31 > 0:24:35this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:35 > 0:24:40with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:40 > 0:24:44prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:44 > 0:24:48it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:48 > 0:24:53treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:53 > 0:24:57they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:57 > 0:25:03making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:03 > 0:25:07was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:07 > 0:25:14it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:14 > 0:25:19Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:19 > 0:25:24of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:24 > 0:25:29ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:29 > 0:25:32independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:32 > 0:25:35nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:35 > 0:25:41friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:41 > 0:25:45and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:45 > 0:25:49friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:49 > 0:25:54can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:54 > 0:25:57important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:57 > 0:26:02happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:02 > 0:26:07party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:07 > 0:26:08to us

0:26:08 > 0:26:10For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:10 > 0:26:11on the left of politics,

0:26:11 > 0:26:14this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:14 > 0:26:16to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:16 > 0:26:18plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:18 > 0:26:20ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:20 > 0:26:22and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:22 > 0:26:24For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:24 > 0:26:26Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:30 > 0:26:33The 7th November 1917.

0:26:33 > 0:26:36Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:36 > 0:26:41Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:41 > 0:26:44This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:44 > 0:26:46because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:46 > 0:26:50was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:50 > 0:26:53The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:53 > 0:26:59The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:26:59 > 0:27:01of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:01 > 0:27:04Then war.

0:27:04 > 0:27:09Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:09 > 0:27:15The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:15 > 0:27:21The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:21 > 0:27:23October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:23 > 0:27:28asserting their authority.

0:27:29 > 0:27:32A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:32 > 0:27:36there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:36 > 0:27:39celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:39 > 0:27:42Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:42 > 0:27:45this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:45 > 0:27:48the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:48 > 0:27:50the discourse of history.

0:27:50 > 0:27:52It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:52 > 0:27:55Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:55 > 0:27:58I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:58 > 0:28:00Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:00 > 0:28:03was chairing the opening session.

0:28:03 > 0:28:07He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:07 > 0:28:13to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:13 > 0:28:15TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:15 > 0:28:18which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:18 > 0:28:21and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:21 > 0:28:24A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:24 > 0:28:27We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:27 > 0:28:29There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:29 > 0:28:31from the Cold War period.

0:28:31 > 0:28:33It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:35 > 0:28:38The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:38 > 0:28:41of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:41 > 0:28:44and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:44 > 0:28:47But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:47 > 0:28:51the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:51 > 0:28:54We wanted to have this conference

0:28:54 > 0:28:57because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:57 > 0:29:00Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:00 > 0:29:04the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:04 > 0:29:08of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:09 > 0:29:13Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:16 > 0:29:19But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:19 > 0:29:24camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:24 > 0:29:27of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:27 > 0:29:32as something to celebrate.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:35 > 0:29:37So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:37 > 0:29:38for celebration, or regret?

0:29:38 > 0:29:40Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:40 > 0:29:46and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:46 > 0:29:51Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:51 > 0:29:56revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:56 > 0:29:59revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:29:59 > 0:30:03truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:03 > 0:30:10wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:10 > 0:30:14back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:14 > 0:30:21elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:21 > 0:30:27his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:27 > 0:30:31Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:31 > 0:30:34former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:34 > 0:30:41true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:41 > 0:30:45the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:45 > 0:30:55Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:55 > 0:31:05suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:05 > 0:31:11Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:11 > 0:31:18And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:18 > 0:31:22Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:22 > 0:31:27years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:27 > 0:31:32in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:32 > 0:31:35cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:35 > 0:31:52Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:52 > 0:31:58was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:58 > 0:32:01brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:01 > 0:32:05I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:05 > 0:32:09why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:09 > 0:32:11misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:11 > 0:32:15possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:15 > 0:32:21and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:21 > 0:32:22intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:22 > 0:32:27to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:27 > 0:32:32acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:32 > 0:32:35statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:35 > 0:32:41labour

0:32:41 > 0:32:48camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:48 > 0:32:52Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:52 > 0:32:56never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:56 > 0:33:00celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:00 > 0:33:05events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:05 > 0:33:10decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:10 > 0:33:13is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:13 > 0:33:18earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:18 > 0:33:24that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:24 > 0:33:28China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:28 > 0:33:33people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:33 > 0:33:38system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:38 > 0:33:41despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:41 > 0:33:45mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:45 > 0:33:48which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:48 > 0:33:53Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:53 > 0:33:58complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:58 > 0:34:03about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:03 > 0:34:06events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:06 > 0:34:11the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:11 > 0:34:16overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:16 > 0:34:21we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:21 > 0:34:29in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:29 > 0:34:36mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:36 > 0:34:39has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:39 > 0:34:45Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:45 > 0:34:48overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:48 > 0:34:55second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:55 > 0:34:58not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:58 > 0:35:03would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:03 > 0:35:09and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:09 > 0:35:13discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:13 > 0:35:21Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:21 > 0:35:26world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:26 > 0:35:31and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:31 > 0:35:34Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:34 > 0:35:39You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:39 > 0:35:46Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:46 > 0:35:52Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:52 > 0:35:57disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:57 > 0:36:02Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:02 > 0:36:05would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:05 > 0:36:11for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:11 > 0:36:162008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:16 > 0:36:21Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:21 > 0:36:31Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:31 > 0:36:39not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:39 > 0:36:43Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:43 > 0:36:49them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:49 > 0:36:51need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:51 > 0:36:58possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:58 > 0:37:07is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:07 > 0:37:11by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:11 > 0:37:151949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:15 > 0:37:19leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:19 > 0:37:25economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:25 > 0:37:28they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:28 > 0:37:31country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:31 > 0:37:35don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:35 > 0:37:38of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:38 > 0:37:42not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:42 > 0:37:48the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:48 > 0:37:51own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:51 > 0:37:54in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:54 > 0:37:58to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:58 > 0:38:01not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:01 > 0:38:05and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:05 > 0:38:11has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:11 > 0:38:17go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:17 > 0:38:20truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:20 > 0:38:23that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:23 > 0:38:26told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:26 > 0:38:29been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:29 > 0:38:34it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:34 > 0:38:39question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:39 > 0:38:42London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:42 > 0:38:45celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:45 > 0:38:50is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:50 > 0:38:54celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:54 > 0:38:59the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:38:59 > 0:39:05the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:05 > 0:39:08thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:08 > 0:39:13rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:13 > 0:39:16people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:16 > 0:39:22Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:22 > 0:39:30succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:30 > 0:39:37the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:37 > 0:39:41kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:41 > 0:39:46Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:46 > 0:39:48for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:48 > 0:39:49It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:50 > 0:39:54Coming up on the programme:

0:39:54 > 0:39:57We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:57 > 0:39:59We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:39:59 > 0:40:02It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:02 > 0:40:04We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:11 > 0:40:15Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics in the Midlands.

0:40:15 > 0:40:17The winter is almost upon us.

0:40:17 > 0:40:21Are our hospitals ready for it or will we see another midwinter

0:40:21 > 0:40:24crisis with patients stuck on trolleys in corridors

0:40:24 > 0:40:26for hours on end?

0:40:26 > 0:40:30Not long to wait for some answers today from Adrian Bailey,

0:40:30 > 0:40:35Labour MP for West Bromwich West, and James Morris, Conservative MP

0:40:35 > 0:40:37for Halesowen and Rowley Regis.

0:40:37 > 0:40:39Two of the Black Country's finest.

0:40:39 > 0:40:44A little later on we hear how campaigners fighting the closure

0:40:44 > 0:40:46of children's centres in Warwickshire have

0:40:46 > 0:40:49carried their fight to Westminster.

0:40:49 > 0:40:54But we begin with the furore over accusations of sexual misconduct.

0:40:54 > 0:40:58There aren't many politicians who have actually benefited from it

0:40:58 > 0:41:00but Gavin Williamson's promotion to Defence Secretary

0:41:00 > 0:41:04confirms the rise and rise of the South Staffordshire MP

0:41:04 > 0:41:08and adds another name to the inevitable leadership speculation.

0:41:08 > 0:41:11Only a week ago, Mark Garnier, who was on this programme

0:41:11 > 0:41:13last Sunday, admitted sending his secretary

0:41:13 > 0:41:14to buy sex toys.

0:41:14 > 0:41:18The International Trade Minister and Conservative MP for Wyre Forest

0:41:18 > 0:41:20is under investigation by the Cabinet Office.

0:41:20 > 0:41:24And that opened the floodgates for the welter of allegations

0:41:24 > 0:41:26against politicians from both main parties.

0:41:26 > 0:41:29One of our leading women MPs wants a concerted lead

0:41:29 > 0:41:32from Parliament and parties alike.

0:41:32 > 0:41:36This is a problem all over the country in all walks of life.

0:41:36 > 0:41:40However, the specific problem with Hollywood and now

0:41:40 > 0:41:42Parliament is about power.

0:41:42 > 0:41:45It is about the power that people have over other people

0:41:45 > 0:41:47and how they use that.

0:41:47 > 0:41:51There needs to be independent bodies set up, both by Parliament but also

0:41:51 > 0:41:54by the political parties themselves.

0:41:54 > 0:41:56That needs to happen swiftly.

0:41:56 > 0:41:59This is not something new, this is something that has been

0:41:59 > 0:42:02asked for within political parties for some time.

0:42:02 > 0:42:06That needs to be a HR function and independent specialist advice

0:42:06 > 0:42:10for people who have grievances and specialists in people dealing

0:42:10 > 0:42:14with people who suffer from sexual violence.

0:42:14 > 0:42:16Jess Phillips making the point there that in the absence

0:42:16 > 0:42:20of anything remotely like a human resources department at Westminster,

0:42:20 > 0:42:23there is a need for some sort of independent services advice

0:42:23 > 0:42:25and support for people.

0:42:25 > 0:42:27James, is she on to something there?

0:42:27 > 0:42:28I would agree on that.

0:42:28 > 0:42:32I think it's important that if there are allegations made,

0:42:32 > 0:42:35that there is a mechanism in Parliament for people to be able

0:42:35 > 0:42:39to get independent advice and also to have some kind of process

0:42:39 > 0:42:41of independent arbitration.

0:42:41 > 0:42:43I think that is an important point.

0:42:43 > 0:42:46The problem is that MPs are basically the boss in the office.

0:42:46 > 0:42:50You are only accountable to your electorate really.

0:42:50 > 0:42:53I think it's important that MPs still have that

0:42:53 > 0:42:57but there is a strong argument that there needs to be some more

0:42:57 > 0:43:00independent arbitration and the ability for people to have

0:43:00 > 0:43:03that independent arbitration as part of the Parliamentary process.

0:43:03 > 0:43:07It strikes me that at one extreme there are obviously very,

0:43:07 > 0:43:10very serious allegations here, but at the other end

0:43:10 > 0:43:12there are quite dubious ones.

0:43:12 > 0:43:16It's very easy to lump the whole lot in together.

0:43:16 > 0:43:17Yes, it is.

0:43:17 > 0:43:22Obviously there are gradations of offences and the most serious

0:43:22 > 0:43:25ones should go to the police.

0:43:25 > 0:43:30I think what we have to make clear is that anybody who has suffered

0:43:30 > 0:43:36a very serious sexual harassment, tantamount to a criminal act,

0:43:36 > 0:43:38must go to the police.

0:43:38 > 0:43:41I think it is the obligation of all the political parties

0:43:41 > 0:43:46to ensure that they have both the processes and support for that

0:43:46 > 0:43:50person so that they don't feel that by going to the police

0:43:50 > 0:43:53and exercising their rights, that they are going to

0:43:53 > 0:43:56have their career ruined as a result.

0:43:56 > 0:43:59I have to confess that there is an obvious awkwardness.

0:43:59 > 0:44:02It has just worked out this week that we are an all-male line-up

0:44:02 > 0:44:05talking about gender issues, but to refer to something said

0:44:05 > 0:44:09by a senior female lobby journalist, Rachel Sylvester, she says

0:44:09 > 0:44:12there is a culture of misogyny at Westminster.

0:44:12 > 0:44:14Is there?

0:44:14 > 0:44:17I think there is an issue about the culture that I don't

0:44:17 > 0:44:20think it's widespread but there is a certain

0:44:20 > 0:44:23aspect of the culture that we need to attend to.

0:44:23 > 0:44:26We are living into the 21st century and there needs to be modern working

0:44:26 > 0:44:29practices in Parliament and people need to treat each

0:44:29 > 0:44:31other with respect.

0:44:31 > 0:44:34That is a fundamental principle that I think needs to be applied

0:44:34 > 0:44:36to the culture in Parliament.

0:44:36 > 0:44:39And Parliament struggling still to recover public respect

0:44:39 > 0:44:41after the expenses scandal.

0:44:41 > 0:44:43This isn't going to help, is it?

0:44:43 > 0:44:44No.

0:44:44 > 0:44:49I think we have to remember that misogyny exists in many professions

0:44:49 > 0:44:52and in society as a whole and therefore it is unlikely

0:44:52 > 0:44:55that parliamentarians as representatives of society

0:44:55 > 0:44:58will be excluded from this.

0:44:58 > 0:45:02But I would agree with James that the numbers involved

0:45:02 > 0:45:05are a relatively small proportion.

0:45:05 > 0:45:09Can I say, my experience is that misogyny actually is more

0:45:09 > 0:45:11rife at local level.

0:45:11 > 0:45:14I'm dealing with an issue with my local authority.

0:45:14 > 0:45:17There has to be mechanisms not just in Westminster

0:45:18 > 0:45:20but replicated at local level to.

0:45:20 > 0:45:23OK, a very clear message going out.

0:45:23 > 0:45:27With winter coming, should we be braced for yet another

0:45:27 > 0:45:29midwinter hospital crisis?

0:45:29 > 0:45:32Some of England's longest waiting times last winter

0:45:32 > 0:45:35were at the Royal Stoke University Hospital.

0:45:35 > 0:45:39For two weeks during January, the hospital is cancelling routine

0:45:39 > 0:45:44operations and it's bringing in 45 extra beds but it's also been

0:45:44 > 0:45:48in financial special measures since March.

0:45:48 > 0:45:52James Bovill has been finding out if the hospital is in any fit

0:45:52 > 0:45:55state to prevent history from repeating itself.

0:46:00 > 0:46:03The Royal Stoke University Hospital is working flat out,

0:46:03 > 0:46:06treating more and more patients with a budget it is

0:46:06 > 0:46:07unable to balance.

0:46:07 > 0:46:11A&E hasn't hit government targets here for four years and doctors

0:46:11 > 0:46:15say they can't carry on with the resources they've got.

0:46:15 > 0:46:18It's an incredibly stressful environment to work in.

0:46:18 > 0:46:21Burn out of clinicians and nurses is a real problem

0:46:21 > 0:46:25when you come in on a daily basis to a crowded emergency department.

0:46:25 > 0:46:28We know we are not seeing patients quickly enough.

0:46:28 > 0:46:34So isn't more money the obvious solution?

0:46:34 > 0:46:38If somebody gave us money right now, it could make a small difference,

0:46:38 > 0:46:41but actually it's how we organise our services.

0:46:41 > 0:46:45This hospital has 1,450 beds and during winter they will be full.

0:46:45 > 0:46:49We have no room for any more so it is how we use those beds

0:46:49 > 0:46:52and how we use our resources which is what's really

0:46:52 > 0:46:54important during winter.

0:46:54 > 0:46:57Staff are clearly doing all they can but the stats

0:46:57 > 0:46:59don't make good reading.

0:46:59 > 0:47:02The trust that runs this hospital and County Hospital in Stafford

0:47:02 > 0:47:06is due to overspend by nearly £70 million this year alone

0:47:06 > 0:47:09and it's spending so much because it's so busy.

0:47:09 > 0:47:11In A&E in September, a quarter of patients weren't

0:47:11 > 0:47:13seen within four hours.

0:47:13 > 0:47:16That's the third worst performance in England.

0:47:16 > 0:47:19And bed blocking or delayed discharge is still a big problem.

0:47:19 > 0:47:22At any one time, 170 patients could be ready to leave this

0:47:22 > 0:47:25hospital but unable to do so because there is no care package

0:47:25 > 0:47:27available elsewhere.

0:47:27 > 0:47:31So what is in the hospital's winter plan to deal with it?

0:47:31 > 0:47:34It's spending £2 million on 45 new beds to get

0:47:34 > 0:47:36patients out of A&E quicker.

0:47:36 > 0:47:40Consultants will work on the front line like during the junior doctor

0:47:40 > 0:47:43strikes to increase efficiency.

0:47:43 > 0:47:46The hospital is also cancelling all non-urgent elective surgery

0:47:46 > 0:47:50for the first two weeks in January, like this lower leg reconstruction,

0:47:50 > 0:47:55to ease that intense pressure on hospital beds.

0:47:55 > 0:47:57Patient satisfaction remains high though.

0:47:57 > 0:48:00Tony came into A&E last Friday night with chest pains.

0:48:00 > 0:48:03He was seen straight away but his wife Sue says

0:48:03 > 0:48:05the strain was clear.

0:48:05 > 0:48:07It was terrible.

0:48:07 > 0:48:10There were so many people, it was unbelievable.

0:48:10 > 0:48:16Quite frightening if you don't go to these places very often.

0:48:16 > 0:48:19The government should help out more.

0:48:19 > 0:48:24It's a wonderful hospital and I think it needs more help.

0:48:24 > 0:48:27Staffordshire's precarious position was raised in Parliament last week

0:48:27 > 0:48:30by local MP Gareth Snell, who re-extended a month's

0:48:30 > 0:48:34old invitation for Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt to visit to see

0:48:34 > 0:48:37the struggles for himself.

0:48:37 > 0:48:39An invitation still not taken up.

0:48:39 > 0:48:42But Mr Hunt did acknowledge this week that the NHS

0:48:42 > 0:48:44will need extra funding.

0:48:44 > 0:48:48There is no doubt that we are going to need to find more money

0:48:48 > 0:48:51for the NHS in the years that come ahead of us because we have

0:48:51 > 0:48:54a million more over 75s coming down the railway track

0:48:54 > 0:48:56in the next decade.

0:48:56 > 0:48:59As autumn turns to winter, hospital bosses will spend the next

0:48:59 > 0:49:01few months trying to avoid a crisis.

0:49:01 > 0:49:04Solving the NHS's long-term problems will be a far more

0:49:04 > 0:49:07intricate operation.

0:49:08 > 0:49:10James Bovill.

0:49:10 > 0:49:12And we're also joined today by Robin Morrison,

0:49:12 > 0:49:16the chief executive of Healthwatch Staffordshire,

0:49:16 > 0:49:18the independent watchdog.

0:49:18 > 0:49:22Do you feel that we are heading towards another midwinter crisis?

0:49:22 > 0:49:26I think, Patrick, that we all know there is increased patient demand

0:49:26 > 0:49:29during the winter period and it is good to acknowledge

0:49:29 > 0:49:33that the trust in particular has put a robust plan in place to mitigate

0:49:33 > 0:49:37some of those known pressures they are going to have.

0:49:37 > 0:49:39Including cancelling routine operations.

0:49:39 > 0:49:41That's already a bit tough.

0:49:41 > 0:49:43There are already victims.

0:49:43 > 0:49:45Those are the people scheduled to have elective surgery.

0:49:45 > 0:49:48Yes, and that's one of the concerns the public have flagged up,

0:49:48 > 0:49:51increased waiting times, and having to travel longer

0:49:51 > 0:49:53distances for treatment.

0:49:53 > 0:49:57But part of our role is to monitor that and take on people's issues

0:49:57 > 0:50:01and complaints and refer them back to the trust in this case.

0:50:01 > 0:50:04We posed the question about whether the hospital is in any

0:50:04 > 0:50:06fit state to approach midwinter.

0:50:06 > 0:50:09Everywhere you look there seems to be a squeeze on budgets.

0:50:09 > 0:50:12In terms of bed blocking, the better care fund commissioning

0:50:12 > 0:50:14groups are closing community beds.

0:50:14 > 0:50:18All of this seems on the face of it to be a prescription for bed

0:50:18 > 0:50:19blocking once again.

0:50:19 > 0:50:24Well, what we have here is a whole system issue, to be honest.

0:50:24 > 0:50:26It's not just the hospital and bed blocking, it's the local authority

0:50:26 > 0:50:29providing care as well and in a very, very

0:50:29 > 0:50:31financially tough situation.

0:50:31 > 0:50:34Being docked £20 million for docking their targets

0:50:34 > 0:50:36on bed blocking too.

0:50:36 > 0:50:38What is your answer to all that?

0:50:38 > 0:50:41My view is that we have got the sustainable

0:50:41 > 0:50:43transformation partnership now.

0:50:43 > 0:50:45In need of improvement, officially.

0:50:45 > 0:50:51In need of improvement, but at least we can improve

0:50:51 > 0:50:52and go on from here.

0:50:52 > 0:50:55We are part of that partnership as Healthwatch and we feed

0:50:55 > 0:50:56the patients' concerns into that partnership.

0:50:56 > 0:51:00There is a lot of re-education to go on, a lot of changes in service

0:51:00 > 0:51:04delivery patterns as well, and this will take some

0:51:04 > 0:51:05considerable time.

0:51:05 > 0:51:07It will not be an overnight solution.

0:51:07 > 0:51:10It seems to me, from what Robin is saying, you were until recently

0:51:10 > 0:51:13the parliamentary private secretary to the Health Secretary,

0:51:13 > 0:51:16that the Stoke hospital is being penalised simply

0:51:16 > 0:51:18because it's so busy.

0:51:18 > 0:51:21There's an awful lot more stick than carrot in all this.

0:51:21 > 0:51:25Well, the point about the systems change is the right thing.

0:51:25 > 0:51:28We have increased funding to the health service every year

0:51:28 > 0:51:31since 2010 and actually, for this particular approach

0:51:31 > 0:51:33to winter, there's a lot of preparation, there's

0:51:33 > 0:51:36an additional £100 million that's been allocated to cope with winter

0:51:36 > 0:51:40pressures and we are treating more people, more people are going

0:51:40 > 0:51:43through A&E than ever before.

0:51:43 > 0:51:46Are we going to be at the wrong end of those waiting lists this winter?

0:51:46 > 0:51:48Clearly there are pressures.

0:51:48 > 0:51:52Every winter we have to be prepared, we have to make further investment,

0:51:52 > 0:51:56we have to get a particular emphasis on prevention so that we don't have

0:51:56 > 0:51:59so many people presenting at A&E, but we also need to make sure

0:51:59 > 0:52:02that we are using innovative practice to make sure

0:52:02 > 0:52:05that we are able to cope with those volumes.

0:52:05 > 0:52:08Over the last seven years, we are seeing more people

0:52:08 > 0:52:11through A&E than ever before in the NHS and seeing a lot of them

0:52:11 > 0:52:13in a very timely fashion.

0:52:13 > 0:52:16Innovative practice, and that has to mean greater efficiency.

0:52:16 > 0:52:20A business model in the health service that was good 70

0:52:20 > 0:52:22years ago is not good now, is it?

0:52:22 > 0:52:25I think we must compliment the health professionals,

0:52:25 > 0:52:28those who deliver the health service, on their resourcefulness

0:52:28 > 0:52:30and their forward planning on this.

0:52:30 > 0:52:33There is no doubt about it that they are alert to this issue

0:52:33 > 0:52:36and they are making contingency arrangements.

0:52:36 > 0:52:39But on the other hand there are some very serious issues.

0:52:39 > 0:52:42Already, in general, hospitals have higher bed occupants

0:52:42 > 0:52:46than they did at this time last year, which could have very

0:52:46 > 0:52:48serious implications.

0:52:48 > 0:52:51And there are longer waiting lists in accident and emergency.

0:52:51 > 0:52:56We have a shortage of nurses and, basically, we need first

0:52:56 > 0:53:06of all a short-term injection to get us over this particular? So it does

0:53:07 > 0:53:09So it does come back to taxpayers' money?

0:53:09 > 0:53:11In some respects it does but it's not solely that.

0:53:11 > 0:53:14It means more support for local authorities to have more care

0:53:14 > 0:53:15packages to free up beds.

0:53:15 > 0:53:17It means better recruitment of doctors and nurses,

0:53:17 > 0:53:19a longer term strategy has to be in place.

0:53:19 > 0:53:22We know there is big pressure on the Chancellor with just over

0:53:22 > 0:53:26a couple of weeks until the budget but I was struck by what the chief

0:53:26 > 0:53:27nurse said in the report.

0:53:27 > 0:53:29She was actually talking about the need for organisational

0:53:29 > 0:53:32efficiency, as much as extra money.

0:53:32 > 0:53:34What is your view on that?

0:53:34 > 0:53:37We have done studies at A&E departments in various hospitals

0:53:37 > 0:53:40in Staffordshire and what we find is, a lot of people reporting to A&E

0:53:40 > 0:53:42don't need to be there.

0:53:42 > 0:53:46They could actually use NHS 111, they could go to their GP,

0:53:46 > 0:53:48they could go to the pharmacist.

0:53:48 > 0:53:51But it's quite attractive, the lights are on, there's a coffee

0:53:51 > 0:53:54machine, they are not going to have to wait for ages in theory,

0:53:54 > 0:53:56but in practice it turns out different.

0:53:56 > 0:54:00And a lot of people are willing to put up with the wait as well

0:54:00 > 0:54:03because they are going to be treated on the day and they are going

0:54:03 > 0:54:05to see a specialist.

0:54:05 > 0:54:07We found that out.

0:54:07 > 0:54:09There is a balance here.

0:54:09 > 0:54:11But the balance is that total system review.

0:54:11 > 0:54:17When we did a consultation on the sustainable transformational

0:54:17 > 0:54:20plan for Staffordshire, we made contact with over 50,000

0:54:20 > 0:54:24residents of Staffordshire by various means and they acknowledge

0:54:24 > 0:54:27the need for change.

0:54:27 > 0:54:29But they wanted to be involved in that change.

0:54:29 > 0:54:31To get their voice heard in the system.

0:54:31 > 0:54:34Very briefly, predictions from each of you, are we heading

0:54:34 > 0:54:37towards a midwinter crisis?

0:54:37 > 0:54:44I certainly think they are going to be really difficult times ahead

0:54:44 > 0:54:47and if we have the predicted flu epidemic, it could be

0:54:47 > 0:54:48an absolute disaster.

0:54:48 > 0:54:50We are always well advanced with winter planning.

0:54:50 > 0:54:52Every year, the NHS has put in contingency plans,

0:54:52 > 0:54:54there is additional money going in for trusts to be able

0:54:54 > 0:54:57to cope, there are a lot of pressures but I think they can

0:54:57 > 0:54:59be coped with.

0:54:59 > 0:55:00Thank you very much.

0:55:00 > 0:55:04Now, they have been described as a lifeline for parents with young

0:55:04 > 0:55:08children but now Warwickshire's 39 children's centres could be

0:55:08 > 0:55:12replaced by 14 new children and family centres.

0:55:12 > 0:55:15The county council need to take over £1 million out of their budget

0:55:15 > 0:55:18for children's centres as part of nearly £70 million savings

0:55:18 > 0:55:21required by the government by 2020.

0:55:21 > 0:55:24But the council faces increasingly determined opposition

0:55:24 > 0:55:28from campaigners who have taken their fight to Westminster.

0:55:28 > 0:55:30Shelley Phelps.

0:55:31 > 0:55:34Save our children's centres!

0:55:34 > 0:55:36Save our children's centres!

0:55:36 > 0:55:39Taking their protest to Parliament, campaigners are stepping up

0:55:39 > 0:55:42the fight to save 25 Warwickshire children's centres

0:55:42 > 0:55:44from possible closure.

0:55:44 > 0:55:47The centres cater for children up to five years of age and offer

0:55:47 > 0:55:50services ranging from stay and play sessions to help with breastfeeding.

0:55:50 > 0:55:52For this Nuneaton mum, the service was a lifeline.

0:55:52 > 0:55:58I had a newborn baby boy, I didn't know what I was doing,

0:55:58 > 0:56:01I didn't know how to be a mum, how to be a parent,

0:56:01 > 0:56:04and they helped me get friends, they helped me learn how to be

0:56:05 > 0:56:06the mother I am today.

0:56:06 > 0:56:08South Warwickshire's new Labour MP, who is also a county councillor,

0:56:08 > 0:56:10has been asking his party's frontbench for help

0:56:10 > 0:56:11highlighting the issue.

0:56:11 > 0:56:14This is a critical part of all education, as if not more

0:56:14 > 0:56:18important than higher and further education, because the provision

0:56:18 > 0:56:20is universal to all children.

0:56:20 > 0:56:24It is so important, and that's what we want to be pressing for.

0:56:24 > 0:56:27We believe the money is there, it is simply a choice.

0:56:27 > 0:56:29Warwickshire County Council is redesigning the service as part

0:56:29 > 0:56:32of efforts to save just over £1 million from the

0:56:32 > 0:56:33children centres budget.

0:56:33 > 0:56:37It plans to transform 14 sites into enhance children and family

0:56:37 > 0:56:41centres that will provide care for a broader range of ages.

0:56:41 > 0:56:45It hopes that other sites will still be used for outreach work.

0:56:45 > 0:56:47Next week the Cabinet is expected to make a final

0:56:47 > 0:56:49decision on the matter.

0:56:49 > 0:56:52They said they want to thank people for contributing their views

0:56:52 > 0:56:55to the consultation and that they have been listening.

0:56:55 > 0:56:57And they said they hope that people will be pleasantly

0:56:57 > 0:56:59surprised by the outcome.

0:56:59 > 0:57:02And if they aren't, then these campaigners will be

0:57:02 > 0:57:04shouting louder than ever.

0:57:04 > 0:57:06Shelley Phelps.

0:57:06 > 0:57:09By the sounds of it we shouldn't have long to wait to find out

0:57:09 > 0:57:11what exactly that pleasant surprise turns out to be.

0:57:11 > 0:57:15Adrian Bailey, what do you think that pleasant surprise should be?

0:57:15 > 0:57:20What I want to see is a level of service that would enable as many

0:57:20 > 0:57:24children as is humanly possible, particularly from low-income

0:57:24 > 0:57:29families, to enjoy a level of facility that they have had

0:57:29 > 0:57:32historically in Warwickshire because all the evidence shows that

0:57:32 > 0:57:39for young children going into early learning, socialising,

0:57:39 > 0:57:42benefit enormously as they go through subsequent stages

0:57:43 > 0:57:45of education.

0:57:45 > 0:57:49It is poor people and deprived families that will be

0:57:49 > 0:57:52a disproportionately if these occur.

0:57:52 > 0:57:55That's presumably why it's described as a lifeline.

0:57:55 > 0:57:57What would you say?

0:57:57 > 0:58:00I think early intervention is really important but in the end

0:58:00 > 0:58:02the delivery of a high-quality early years service is not

0:58:02 > 0:58:04dependent on a building.

0:58:04 > 0:58:07If you take Labour-run Wolverhampton, they have also reduce

0:58:07 > 0:58:10the number of buildings in which Sure Starts are located

0:58:10 > 0:58:13but they've been given a good Ofsted rating for the delivery

0:58:14 > 0:58:15of the service.

0:58:15 > 0:58:18If you look at Warwickshire, apparently there's around a thousand

0:58:18 > 0:58:21families in Warwickshire who should be using Sure Start centres

0:58:21 > 0:58:25but they don't want to use the existing facility.

0:58:25 > 0:58:28It might be better to co-locate some of those Sure Start facilities

0:58:28 > 0:58:32in other areas in order to create this early intervention hub.

0:58:32 > 0:58:35I don't think it's all about buildings.

0:58:35 > 0:58:39In Warwickshire, 50% of the cost of Sure Start goes

0:58:39 > 0:58:41on to management and administration.

0:58:41 > 0:58:44We should be trying to focus as much of the money

0:58:44 > 0:58:46on the front line as possible.

0:58:46 > 0:58:49But it is about taking a million out of the budget?

0:58:49 > 0:58:52Again, talking about innovative practice.

0:58:52 > 0:58:54It's about access.

0:58:54 > 0:58:57If you are reducing 37 to 14, there will be an awful lot

0:58:57 > 0:59:07of people? But family centres is a bigger age range,

0:59:08 > 0:59:10But family centres is a bigger age range, a bigger service.

0:59:10 > 0:59:12Yes, but in a county as large as Warwickshire,

0:59:12 > 0:59:15that is going to preclude some low-income families from having

0:59:15 > 0:59:18a level of access which they have historically had in the area.

0:59:18 > 0:59:20Isn't it time for the government to ease off on austerity

0:59:20 > 0:59:22and to relax the pressure on local authorities?

0:59:22 > 0:59:24These are decisions to be made by local authorities.

0:59:24 > 0:59:27They need to make those strategic decisions in relation

0:59:27 > 0:59:29to their statutory responsibility and the resources they have.

0:59:29 > 0:59:32It's actually true that you can deliver a better service

0:59:32 > 0:59:35where 50% of the cost is going on administration.

0:59:35 > 0:59:38We need to shift that resource into the provision of a high-quality

0:59:38 > 0:59:41service at the front line.

0:59:41 > 0:59:44Matt Western says it's a matter of choice but that's what it's

0:59:44 > 0:59:45about, hard choices.

0:59:45 > 0:59:49There are always more or less deserving cases.

0:59:49 > 0:59:51But the real choice is between government concentrating

0:59:51 > 0:59:53spending from Whitehall, spending it in the regions

0:59:53 > 0:59:56through local authorities, through metropolitan mayors,

0:59:56 > 0:59:58and so on and so forth.

0:59:58 > 1:00:02They say they believe in devolution of financial power

1:00:02 > 1:00:04but they have got to deliver.

1:00:04 > 1:00:07I know James is itching to come back but we must leave it there.

1:00:07 > 1:00:10Let's see if we can sum up the rest of the week's political

1:00:10 > 1:00:13developments in just 60 seconds.

1:00:13 > 1:00:16Our round-up today is brought to us by Amy Cole.

1:00:20 > 1:00:24Litchfield Tory MP Michael Fabricant made an appearance on Channel 4's

1:00:24 > 1:00:27Celebrity First Dates program to raise money for the Stand

1:00:27 > 1:00:29Up To Cancer charity.

1:00:29 > 1:00:33Labour deputy leader Tom Watson led calls to cut the maximum stake

1:00:33 > 1:00:37on fixed-odds betting terminals from the current £100 to £2

1:00:38 > 1:00:40to tackle gambling addiction.

1:00:40 > 1:00:43Birmingham has failed World Health Organisation

1:00:43 > 1:00:45tests on air quality.

1:00:45 > 1:00:49The city did better than London or Leeds but was behind Manchester.

1:00:49 > 1:00:52Andy Street joined his metro' mayor colleagues in City Hall in London.

1:00:52 > 1:00:55They want the government to give them greater tax raising powers.

1:00:55 > 1:00:58And the former British Leyland worker and trade unionists

1:00:58 > 1:01:01Derek Robinson has died at the age of 90.

1:01:01 > 1:01:05Dubbed Red Robbo by the media, he was involved in a series

1:01:05 > 1:01:08of strikes and walkouts at the Longbridge car

1:01:08 > 1:01:11plant in the 1970s.

1:01:11 > 1:01:15He stood up for the rights of working people, made sure that

1:01:15 > 1:01:18when they were prepared to fight they got support, but always put

1:01:18 > 1:01:21the argument with intelligence, care and diplomacy.

1:01:23 > 1:01:27And as a young-ish news reporter back then, I remember many a frosty

1:01:27 > 1:01:32morning in Cofton Park culminating in a unanimous show of hands.

1:01:32 > 1:01:36We are reminded by Richard Burgon, Labour MP whose constituency

1:01:36 > 1:01:38includes the former Longbridge works that it took bad management

1:01:38 > 1:01:43as well as the unions to make Longbridge what it became.

1:01:43 > 1:01:45Is that a fair verdict?

1:01:45 > 1:01:48I wasn't very old at the time of these things happening

1:01:48 > 1:01:51but obviously he was a very colourful character, Red Robbo,

1:01:51 > 1:01:54and he's left his own legacy.

1:01:54 > 1:01:57Probably we'd hope that trade union relations with management

1:01:57 > 1:02:00at companies will have moved on a bit from that time but I'm sure

1:02:00 > 1:02:03he leaves his own legacy.

1:02:03 > 1:02:06It was all part of the winter of discontent , which helped bring

1:02:06 > 1:02:08down the Callaghan government.

1:02:08 > 1:02:12He led apparently 500 plus walkouts between '78 and 79.

1:02:12 > 1:02:15I am old enough to remember.

1:02:15 > 1:02:17I am sad to see him gone.

1:02:17 > 1:02:20I didn't agree with a lot of things he did but he was a product

1:02:20 > 1:02:22of an era when there was real confrontation between

1:02:22 > 1:02:24management and union.

1:02:24 > 1:02:26Now look at the difference.

1:02:26 > 1:02:29You have the unions working with management and invested

1:02:29 > 1:02:32in companies like Jaguar Land Rover, transforming the local economy.

1:02:32 > 1:02:33We must leave it there.

1:02:33 > 1:02:36My thanks to Adrian Bailey and James Morris.

1:02:36 > 1:02:40Finally from me, are you able to scrutinise your council?

1:02:40 > 1:02:43The Local Government Minister and Nuneaton MP Marcus Jones comes

1:02:43 > 1:02:46under scrutiny himself tomorrow, appearing before the

1:02:46 > 1:02:48Communities Select Committee.

1:02:48 > 1:02:51They are examining how local authorities are scrutinised

1:02:51 > 1:02:54and it is select committees who scrutinise government

1:02:54 > 1:02:56departments like his.

1:02:56 > 1:02:59So, there's an awful lot of scrutiny going on,

1:02:59 > 1:03:02but who scrutinises the scrutineers?

1:03:02 > 1:03:03We do, of course.

1:03:03 > 1:03:05And so does Sarah Smith.

1:03:05 > 1:03:07to support.

1:03:07 > 1:03:09All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:09 > 1:03:12My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:12 > 1:03:14It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:14 > 1:03:15again, you might think.

1:03:15 > 1:03:18She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:18 > 1:03:21which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:21 > 1:03:24vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:24 > 1:03:25this time apparently over housing.

1:03:25 > 1:03:28So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:28 > 1:03:29or more of a whimper?

1:03:29 > 1:03:30Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:30 > 1:03:32and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:32 > 1:03:35to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:35 > 1:03:38ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:38 > 1:03:44# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:44 > 1:03:48It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:48 > 1:03:51but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:51 > 1:03:55it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:55 > 1:03:58does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:58 > 1:03:59Yes or no?

1:03:59 > 1:04:04# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:04 > 1:04:07With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:07 > 1:04:10and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:10 > 1:04:14So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:16 > 1:04:19She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:19 > 1:04:21Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:21 > 1:04:23I think she's in control.

1:04:23 > 1:04:25She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:25 > 1:04:26No, I don't.

1:04:26 > 1:04:27I think she's a mess.

1:04:27 > 1:04:30Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:30 > 1:04:32by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:32 > 1:04:36I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:39 > 1:04:42I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:42 > 1:04:46I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:46 > 1:04:49a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:49 > 1:04:51The Queen is England's role.

1:04:51 > 1:04:53It's her birth right.

1:04:53 > 1:04:57She is England's role of this country.

1:04:57 > 1:04:59I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:04:59 > 1:05:03I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:03 > 1:05:06I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:06 > 1:05:08I think she could have done better.

1:05:08 > 1:05:10The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:10 > 1:05:11I think she should resign, really.

1:05:11 > 1:05:14I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:14 > 1:05:16I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:16 > 1:05:20She's doing her best.

1:05:20 > 1:05:22With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:22 > 1:05:25moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:25 > 1:05:28Very disappointed.

1:05:28 > 1:05:33Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:33 > 1:05:36And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:36 > 1:05:38But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:38 > 1:05:41despite the current difficulties.

1:05:41 > 1:05:43The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:43 > 1:05:45in the first place for the euro.

1:05:45 > 1:05:48We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:48 > 1:05:51I don't see an end to it.

1:05:51 > 1:05:54Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:54 > 1:05:57The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:57 > 1:06:01and the result is...

1:06:01 > 1:06:02No.

1:06:02 > 1:06:03The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:03 > 1:06:06don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:06 > 1:06:10CHEERING

1:06:10 > 1:06:13That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:13 > 1:06:19to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:19 > 1:06:24Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:24 > 1:06:27seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:27 > 1:06:32Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:32 > 1:06:37swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:37 > 1:06:43All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:43 > 1:06:48tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:48 > 1:06:53her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:53 > 1:06:56in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:56 > 1:07:00in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:00 > 1:07:04could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:04 > 1:07:08say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:08 > 1:07:11goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:11 > 1:07:15think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:15 > 1:07:20things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:20 > 1:07:24basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:24 > 1:07:29basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:29 > 1:07:33minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:33 > 1:07:37impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:37 > 1:07:41opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:41 > 1:07:44action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:44 > 1:07:49get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:49 > 1:07:54her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:54 > 1:07:58is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:58 > 1:08:03Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:03 > 1:08:06not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:06 > 1:08:10giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:10 > 1:08:15an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:15 > 1:08:18has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:18 > 1:08:22her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:22 > 1:08:31like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:31 > 1:08:34retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:34 > 1:08:37longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:37 > 1:08:41or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:41 > 1:08:48being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:48 > 1:08:52think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:52 > 1:08:55Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:55 > 1:09:01be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:01 > 1:09:04Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:04 > 1:09:09again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:09 > 1:09:13investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:13 > 1:09:18into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:18 > 1:09:23Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:23 > 1:09:27the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:27 > 1:09:32promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:32 > 1:09:37simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:37 > 1:09:40not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:40 > 1:09:45possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:45 > 1:09:49seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:49 > 1:09:58goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:58 > 1:10:07knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:07 > 1:10:12are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:12 > 1:10:16Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:16 > 1:10:23in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:23 > 1:10:29say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:29 > 1:10:32less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:32 > 1:10:39Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:39 > 1:10:43Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:43 > 1:10:46vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:46 > 1:10:50They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:50 > 1:10:54moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:54 > 1:10:58Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:58 > 1:11:02with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:02 > 1:11:07virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:07 > 1:11:11guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:11 > 1:11:15part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:15 > 1:11:20whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:20 > 1:11:23what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:23 > 1:11:26that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:26 > 1:11:31Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:31 > 1:11:34glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:34 > 1:11:38should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:38 > 1:11:42a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:42 > 1:11:46of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:46 > 1:11:50quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:50 > 1:11:55steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:55 > 1:11:59that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:59 > 1:12:02expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:02 > 1:12:07the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:07 > 1:12:11he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:11 > 1:12:17Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:17 > 1:12:22do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:22 > 1:12:26budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:26 > 1:12:32is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:32 > 1:12:37Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:37 > 1:12:42witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:42 > 1:12:45between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:45 > 1:12:49bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:49 > 1:12:53in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:53 > 1:12:59be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:12:59 > 1:13:05Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:05 > 1:13:07are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:07 > 1:13:09to build for themselves.

1:13:09 > 1:13:10That's all for today.

1:13:10 > 1:13:12There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:12 > 1:13:14while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:14 > 1:13:17but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:17 > 1:13:21Until then, bye bye.