0:01:23 > 0:01:26In the West: We meet the local politicians
0:01:26 > 0:01:29getting all steamed up over these Costa Coffee shops. They're open
0:01:29 > 0:01:39for business, but they don't have planning permission. Should they be
0:01:39 > 0:01:39
0:01:39 > 0:29:47Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1688 seconds
0:29:48 > 0:29:52Hello and welcome to our new look programme, The Sunday Politics in
0:29:52 > 0:29:56the West. We're United with the kingdom of
0:29:56 > 0:29:59Andrew Neil, unless we vote for independence. This week we're not
0:29:59 > 0:30:02talking about whisky, but coffee, and the franchise Costa, which
0:30:02 > 0:30:07opened shops without planning permission. Should the politicians
0:30:07 > 0:30:10allow them to get away with it. Yes, the BBC has laid on some
0:30:10 > 0:30:13instant decaf in these austere times, but it's not all frugal fare
0:30:13 > 0:30:19here on The Sunday Politics, we do have some froth for you and here
0:30:19 > 0:30:23they are - our guests of the week. Jacob Rees Mogg, who's so posh he
0:30:23 > 0:30:26thinks a latte is when you don't turn up on time.
0:30:26 > 0:30:32And Kerry McCarthy, a Bristol Labour MP. She's a vegan so a
0:30:32 > 0:30:38capuccino is out of the question. Welcome to you both. What have been
0:30:38 > 0:30:44your political highlights or lowlights of the week? Thin on of
0:30:44 > 0:30:48your tartan tie, it has got to the independence and the Prime Minister
0:30:48 > 0:30:51questions whether Labour and Tory leaders were united with the
0:30:51 > 0:30:55Scottish nationalists jeering from the sidelines. Do you think the
0:30:55 > 0:31:00vote will go through and they will be independent? I doubt they will
0:31:00 > 0:31:04go for independence. I think the less English MPs interfere, the
0:31:04 > 0:31:08better. I hope they vote for independence but because it
0:31:08 > 0:31:14benefits the Scots rather than being pressurised by the English.
0:31:14 > 0:31:18You hope they vote for independence? I hope they take a
0:31:18 > 0:31:21vote. It would be difficult for people in Somerset if they went --
0:31:21 > 0:31:28it would be better for Somerset if they went independent because there
0:31:28 > 0:31:32would be more money for the English. I do not think so. The United
0:31:32 > 0:31:37Kingdom built up from Somerset with Alfred the Great. I want to keep
0:31:37 > 0:31:44our country united. What about you Carey? It would be the defeat of
0:31:44 > 0:31:51the Government over the House of Lords over the get welfare reform
0:31:51 > 0:31:54bill. It was quite big, about 60 votes. It was opposing measures so
0:31:54 > 0:31:57it has to come back to the House of Commons. The fact that the Lords
0:31:57 > 0:32:02had rejected these measures means that the House of Commons will
0:32:02 > 0:32:05follow suit. Thank you very much. Stay with us.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08To our first political story. The Occupy campaigners have been told
0:32:08 > 0:32:11to go in the name of God. Well not quite, but the church and the
0:32:11 > 0:32:13council have finally taken eviction proceedings against them. So what
0:32:14 > 0:32:18was their political protest about? Paul Barltrop reports.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21The writing may be on the wall for the occupiers of Occupy. Legal
0:32:21 > 0:32:25action has been started by the authorities. It's the beginning of
0:32:25 > 0:32:29the end. Bristol's camp is three months old, part of a worldwide
0:32:29 > 0:32:33movement begun in New York. The first targets were the banks who'd
0:32:33 > 0:32:43precipitated the world recession. But the banners and the protesters
0:32:43 > 0:32:44
0:32:44 > 0:32:48espoused all sorts of causes. Capitalism. It does not work.
0:32:48 > 0:32:50seems so staggeringly unfair and there is nothing we can do except
0:32:50 > 0:32:53for trying to make visible our frustration.
0:32:53 > 0:33:00London's has had the highest- profile and some of the biggest
0:33:00 > 0:33:05claims about its impact. Of course history will show that people power,
0:33:05 > 0:33:08large people lead movements have caused his tree to change. We
0:33:08 > 0:33:10believe that because it is the global that is what is happening
0:33:10 > 0:33:16with this movement. But back in Bristol some tents have already
0:33:16 > 0:33:19gone. They know it won't be the same without this prime location.
0:33:19 > 0:33:23The second that Occupy gets of College Green or what, we become
0:33:23 > 0:33:26another protest group there will be ignored and sidelined and you will
0:33:26 > 0:33:30not hear anything from us in the media.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33They may soon be gone, but the issues that brought them here won't
0:33:33 > 0:33:42The Dean of Bristol Cathedral David Hoyle and Occupy campaigner Tony
0:33:42 > 0:33:48Cripps are here to discuss the camp. What was the protest all about? Can
0:33:48 > 0:33:53you explain after all these weeks? It was about bankers, corporate
0:33:53 > 0:33:58directors and governments, cowardly MPs that allow corporate directors
0:33:58 > 0:34:02to bully their way around and not pay their corporate tax and they do
0:34:02 > 0:34:08nothing about it. Bankers are ripping people off left right and
0:34:08 > 0:34:16centre as we sit here now. It was a protest about finance, was it?
0:34:16 > 0:34:25Nothing else? It was about human rights as well. 99%, as we call it,
0:34:26 > 0:34:30are being enslaved by the 1%. It is by capitalism which does not work.
0:34:30 > 0:34:36So you are Against capitalism in general? We are not solely antique
0:34:36 > 0:34:41and at -- anti-capitalist. From my point of view, these are the
0:34:41 > 0:34:47culprits for the mess we are now in in the UK. Also globally. It is
0:34:47 > 0:34:51about the banks. David, it put the Church in the uncomfortable world
0:34:51 > 0:34:55of politics. Why have you decided to evict them? We have said all
0:34:55 > 0:34:59along that there is a right to protest and there might be some
0:34:59 > 0:35:03very important things being said by eight the Occupy movement. We have
0:35:03 > 0:35:07also said that College Green is an asset but the tone and the council
0:35:07 > 0:35:13manages for the benefit of the people of Bristol. Also to deliver
0:35:13 > 0:35:18a number of events on College Green. Frankly, in January it is not a
0:35:18 > 0:35:23huge issue but by Easter it is a problem. Have you accepted that?
0:35:23 > 0:35:28You will now go? We have no choice now. We have received an eviction
0:35:28 > 0:35:32order. It does not come as any great surprise... We all go? You
0:35:33 > 0:35:37have some trouble, don't you? Used by difficult to talk to the
0:35:37 > 0:35:41different factions in the group? They have a particular way of doing
0:35:41 > 0:35:44business. It is a model of consensus. It means, not
0:35:45 > 0:35:48surprisingly, that we have a conversation with an individual
0:35:48 > 0:35:53one-day and they go back to the camp and a consensus decision is
0:35:53 > 0:35:57not necessarily where we thought we would be going. Jacob, he is making
0:35:57 > 0:36:00the point that capitalism does not work and it is fair to say that a
0:36:00 > 0:36:05lot of people would agree with that. Although it works for some people,
0:36:05 > 0:36:08it does not work for everybody and people get left behind. If you look
0:36:08 > 0:36:12at other systems that have been tried, capitalism has been more
0:36:12 > 0:36:16successful than any other. It is why all the former communist
0:36:16 > 0:36:20countries have become capitalist in the last 20 years, with the
0:36:20 > 0:36:24exception of North Korea. I do not think that is a model that we want
0:36:24 > 0:36:30to follow. Do you have an alternative? An alternative to
0:36:30 > 0:36:35capitalism? That is something that we have kept saying, not any one of
0:36:35 > 0:36:38us individuals have an answer for it but what we would look to his
0:36:38 > 0:36:42are the Occupy movement itself, the support that we have is hundreds of
0:36:42 > 0:36:47thousands around the world and it is the idea that will come from
0:36:47 > 0:36:51these people discussing, debating and sharing ideas. They are sharing
0:36:51 > 0:36:55skills and all sorts of things. We are in this for the long term. It
0:36:55 > 0:36:59is not a quick fix... Is it something that Labour needs to
0:36:59 > 0:37:04plug-in to? There is a feeling of discontent about the way the
0:37:04 > 0:37:07financial system works and what is seen as the unfairness of it.
0:37:07 > 0:37:12Without a doubt there is a real sense of injustice being felt
0:37:12 > 0:37:17amongst people, particularly at the cuts start to hit. There is a
0:37:17 > 0:37:22genuine grievance that the people who won near the bottom of the
0:37:22 > 0:37:28ladder are being hit the hardest, as we saw with the votes against
0:37:28 > 0:37:33the Welfare Reform Bill... Visitor mistake for Tony Blair and
0:37:33 > 0:37:39Mandelson to get into bed with big business? He if the corporate
0:37:39 > 0:37:42sector is run properly and a long ethnic -- ethical lines then it is
0:37:42 > 0:37:47a great benefit to the country. It gives people jobs and let them look
0:37:47 > 0:37:51after themselves and their families. What we have is an imbalance. There
0:37:51 > 0:37:54are situations where Vodafone can write off their tax bill by need
0:37:54 > 0:37:58association with HMRC where everybody else has to be chased for
0:37:58 > 0:38:04every last penny... Do you accept there is too big a gap between the
0:38:04 > 0:38:07rich and poor? No, I do not. I think you need to have wealthy
0:38:07 > 0:38:12people in society. They are the ones to pay the bulk of the
0:38:12 > 0:38:16taxation which is spent on providing public services. The top
0:38:16 > 0:38:211% of taxpayers in this country paid 24% of the total income tax.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24Do we really not one that? What would Jesus say about that? My face
0:38:24 > 0:38:28turns on the fact that I believe passionately that the world we live
0:38:28 > 0:38:31in offers us a glimpse of something better. The task is to work
0:38:31 > 0:38:39passionately for the something better. The gap between the rich
0:38:39 > 0:38:42and poor? It is a cause for concern. I take the point that they are
0:38:42 > 0:38:46going to be differences in the way human beings live out their lives.
0:38:46 > 0:38:51I worry, as I look around Bristol at the moment, that it seems to me
0:38:51 > 0:38:55that people who were vulnerable and very of the living in poverty are
0:38:55 > 0:38:57paid a very heavy price. Thank you very much for joining us this
0:38:57 > 0:39:00Sunday. A West MP is calling on the
0:39:00 > 0:39:03Government to give councils more planning powers after a storm in a
0:39:03 > 0:39:06coffee cup in Bristol. The city council claims three new branches
0:39:06 > 0:39:13of Costa Coffee are now trading without the right planning
0:39:13 > 0:39:19permission in place. Here's Robin Markwell.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23It seems nothing can quench our thirst for coffee. While we cut our
0:39:23 > 0:39:26spending elsewhere, we are still buying a day the Cup. Profits for
0:39:26 > 0:39:32Britain's biggest Coffee chain are booming and now we want to double
0:39:32 > 0:39:35its outlet by 2016. The relentless march of the coffee shop is brewing
0:39:35 > 0:39:40up trouble with our councils. This is Gloucester Road in Bristol,
0:39:40 > 0:39:43famed for its independent stores, like this one here. When Costa
0:39:43 > 0:39:47Coffee tried to living next door, the city council said no to
0:39:47 > 0:39:52planning permission twice. They opened all the same and they are
0:39:52 > 0:39:58still here. Over 3,000 signed a petition claiming the store would
0:39:58 > 0:40:02sound a death knell for the street. If I wanted to open a cafe and was
0:40:02 > 0:40:07refused planning permission then I would not be able to open up. A lot
0:40:07 > 0:40:12of the locals who have signed the position -- petition feel very
0:40:12 > 0:40:14strongly about that issue. So many of them say it is outrageous that
0:40:15 > 0:40:21they would have to take something down if they did it without
0:40:21 > 0:40:27planning permission. The case will be heard by an inspector next month.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30The building was a derelict office and Costa's franchisee applied for
0:40:30 > 0:40:37permission to turn it into a cafe. The same man has applied for
0:40:37 > 0:40:42several others without applying for a change of use. He disagrees that
0:40:42 > 0:40:46they should be classed as cafes. Cost has landed in a hot water with
0:40:46 > 0:40:50councils elsewhere about whether the coffee houses are shops or
0:40:50 > 0:40:54cafes. Costa claims it is a grey area. The planning consultant we
0:40:54 > 0:40:59spoke to says the rules could not be clearer. In the eyes of planning,
0:40:59 > 0:41:04it primary uses a restaurant or, I would use the word Cafe. The
0:41:04 > 0:41:09primary use is to serve food as a cafe/restaurant and you sit down
0:41:09 > 0:41:13and some people may take away but there is seating available. A
0:41:13 > 0:41:18shopper is where you go in and make a purchase. You buy a product. In
0:41:18 > 0:41:25the eyes of planning law which I would agree with is that a coffee-
0:41:25 > 0:41:28shop clearly falls within a cafe/restaurant. The local MP is
0:41:28 > 0:41:33calling on the Government to give council's more powers to enforce
0:41:33 > 0:41:36planning rules. It will be raised in the Commons next week. A lot of
0:41:36 > 0:41:42large companies have become arrogant in their dealings with
0:41:42 > 0:41:45local authorities. They have huge legal departments that will look
0:41:45 > 0:41:50for what they have got away with them one part of the country and
0:41:50 > 0:41:54they will try it in another part of the country. These three Bristol
0:41:54 > 0:41:59stores have the same franchisee. Neither he nor Costa Coffee wanted
0:41:59 > 0:42:09to speak to us today. However cost of pointed out in a statement that
0:42:09 > 0:42:21
0:42:21 > 0:42:25the franchisee was not acting Costa Coffee has been accused of
0:42:25 > 0:42:29having a trade and be damned attitude here and Bristol but with
0:42:29 > 0:42:32nearly one in six shops on the High Street now standing empty, should
0:42:32 > 0:42:35our councils really be stalling those who are looking to deliver as
0:42:35 > 0:42:39caffeine stimulus to wake up the local economy?
0:42:39 > 0:42:47Gus Hoyt is a Green party councillor in Bristol. Thank you
0:42:47 > 0:42:51for joining us. Do you have a problem with this?
0:42:51 > 0:42:55With Costa Coffee opening illegal shops? Yes. They have been denied
0:42:55 > 0:42:59planning permission twice. The current legislation is in place in
0:42:59 > 0:43:04case people make a mistake in planning and open not having
0:43:04 > 0:43:07understood to rules. They are going to challenge all of that. Of course,
0:43:07 > 0:43:10yes. They have opened a business which is providing a service and
0:43:10 > 0:43:15employing people, what is the difficulty? Would you prefer an
0:43:15 > 0:43:20empty shop? Yes I would in this case. There are plenty of coffee
0:43:20 > 0:43:25shops already. Most of the other coffee shops in the area are all
0:43:25 > 0:43:30independently run. Is it not a business decision? Why would you
0:43:30 > 0:43:32not wanted to just take its chances? Basically Costa Coffee is
0:43:32 > 0:43:39bullying his way on to our high street and I should not be
0:43:39 > 0:43:45allowed... They are small businesses, they are franchises.
0:43:45 > 0:43:50Yes. You're looking to give people a minimum wage of �8.10 an hour.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54The a liveable wage. You want a 34 -- 35 hour week and more generous
0:43:54 > 0:43:57maternity and paternity leave. These small businesses under the
0:43:57 > 0:44:03Green Party regime would have to be very profitable to cope with that
0:44:03 > 0:44:06kind of expands. Yes, and at the moment they are not in a position
0:44:06 > 0:44:11where they can compete fairly because companies like Costa Coffee
0:44:11 > 0:44:16are coming in a flat in regulation. So you suggest that if they work
0:44:16 > 0:44:20less coffee-shop they could afford to pay their staff these wages. How
0:44:20 > 0:44:25much would be cups of coffee? But recovered with a cup of coffee
0:44:25 > 0:44:29cost? You pay manage with less. I have done the same job myself and I
0:44:29 > 0:44:33have taken a pay cut to make sure my staff get paid more. Other
0:44:33 > 0:44:38planning laws in this country at there to help business or hinder
0:44:38 > 0:44:43it? There are two issues. One is the enforcement issue. If you have
0:44:43 > 0:44:48planning law and it is being broken, then it should be enforced, that
0:44:48 > 0:44:51should be even across all people. Ising that people who obey the laws
0:44:51 > 0:44:55and up pay the fees deal with a monstrous bureaucracy and others
0:44:55 > 0:45:02just get away with it. That is wrong. On the question on whether a
0:45:02 > 0:45:06coffee shop should be allowed to open, I think it is lunatic that we
0:45:06 > 0:45:10make it difficult. We should make it as easy as possible. I agree
0:45:10 > 0:45:13entirely with Jacob about the need for enforcement. It is something I
0:45:13 > 0:45:17see all the time across Bristol, particularly where people are
0:45:17 > 0:45:24converting houses into flats or building extra flats and houses in
0:45:24 > 0:45:27people back gardens. They flout the law and enforcement is very poor.
0:45:27 > 0:45:31The issue about Costa Coffee is not about whether that shop itself will
0:45:31 > 0:45:34be financially viable or will create jobs for people, it is the
0:45:34 > 0:45:37fact that it could put several other shops in the area out of
0:45:38 > 0:45:42business which would have the other impact of wrecking the character of
0:45:42 > 0:45:46the neighbourhood... It seems to be that people do not worry about what
0:45:46 > 0:45:51the local council things because they can appeal and it eventually
0:45:51 > 0:45:55goes to the Secretary of State and then they'd -- I do not think Eric
0:45:55 > 0:45:59Pickles has ever turned down a coffee shop! I have no idea if he
0:45:59 > 0:46:02has or not. I believe in competition, so if one coffee shop
0:46:02 > 0:46:06closes down other coffee shops it is because other people are not
0:46:06 > 0:46:16providing the service that people are keen to pay for. That is the
0:46:16 > 0:46:17
0:46:18 > 0:46:21central point, isn't it? Not really, no. That reason that we have not
0:46:21 > 0:46:28been able to stop it is that we know that Eric Pickles will let it
0:46:28 > 0:46:34go ahead. It could be turned down in appeal but we have to wait until
0:46:34 > 0:46:38the end of the appeal process. Thank you very much for coming in.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41A week may be a long time in politics, but we've crammed the
0:46:41 > 0:46:46highlights from here in the West into our weekly 60 second roundup.
0:46:46 > 0:46:54Enjoy! The Education Secretary Michael Gove visited a school in
0:46:54 > 0:46:58Keynsham - his lecture was for Bristol to back free schools.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01provision has not been good enough and we have to change this.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04This is the Mayor of Stroud - he could be fined for not returning
0:47:04 > 0:47:10his Census form. He's making the protest because he says the firm
0:47:10 > 0:47:12organising it also sell arms. could not face myself if I actually
0:47:12 > 0:47:15feel that form in. Campaigners have taken their fight
0:47:15 > 0:47:19against wind turbines in Berkley Vale to a public enquiry. They
0:47:19 > 0:47:23don't like the way they look - the company claim that's not a good
0:47:23 > 0:47:26enough reason. These two Wiltshire pensioners have
0:47:26 > 0:47:35been given ASBOs for feeding the pigeons in Trowbridge. The pair
0:47:35 > 0:47:38ignored orders by Wiltshire Council to stop because of the mess. I just
0:47:38 > 0:47:40love my birds and that is all. Bus cuts will leave disabled
0:47:40 > 0:47:43passengers stranded in their homes according to campaigners in
0:47:43 > 0:47:53Somerset. They're fighting against council cuts that would see 35 bus
0:47:53 > 0:47:54
0:47:54 > 0:47:59routes stopped. Quite a variety of stories there.
0:47:59 > 0:48:04The ASBOs were Tony Blair's invention. Anti-social behaviour
0:48:04 > 0:48:08orders. Do they work? Getting the legislation has been really useful
0:48:08 > 0:48:12in some respects and in my part of Bristol it has been used for things
0:48:12 > 0:48:16like crack den closures, dispersal orders to get gangs of the street
0:48:16 > 0:48:19as well as ASBOs for people's individual behaviour. He will
0:48:19 > 0:48:23always find some cases where it looks like the authorities have
0:48:23 > 0:48:27gone too far and given ASBOs to people who do not deserve them but
0:48:27 > 0:48:34generally, I am sure Jacob will agree with me, anti-social
0:48:34 > 0:48:38behaviour is a far bigger issue than many others, there are so many
0:48:38 > 0:48:43complaints about it. Another story that caught my eye are the cuts to
0:48:44 > 0:48:48bus services. This will leave people high and dry. This is not my
0:48:48 > 0:48:54part of Somerset in that story but there is a difficulty in providing
0:48:54 > 0:48:59rural bus services. The numbers who use them mean the subsidy is very
0:48:59 > 0:49:04high. One bus route that was cut to a remote village had one person who
0:49:04 > 0:49:08used it each week and it would have been cheaper to take that person by
0:49:08 > 0:49:11helicopter into Bath a than to provide a bus every year. It hard
0:49:11 > 0:49:16economic times, you have got to be serious about where you are
0:49:16 > 0:49:20spending money and you have got to spend it to the greatest advantage.
0:49:20 > 0:49:24Thank you both. It's time for me to raise a cup of
0:49:24 > 0:49:28cold BBC coffee to our two MPs Jacob and Kerry - thank you for
0:49:28 > 0:49:32sharing you thoughts today. You can watch it all again on the BBC