:01:38. > :01:48.In the West: The company's charging you to work for them. We look at
:01:48. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :31:13.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1764 seconds
:31:13. > :31:16.internships. Valuable work Welcome to the Sunday Politics in
:31:16. > :31:19.the West. Fancy working for nothing? Well, that's what we
:31:19. > :31:22.expect of thousands of our young people.
:31:22. > :31:26.Today, we're looking at interns, the young men and women who give
:31:26. > :31:35.their time and energy for free, in return for a chance to get a foot
:31:35. > :31:38.in some employer's door. But is it really just exploitation?
:31:38. > :31:42.We'll be discussing that later. But talking of people looking for work
:31:42. > :31:45.experience and not getting a fee, let's meet our two guests of the
:31:45. > :31:48.week. They are Anne Snelgrove for Labour - she used to represent
:31:48. > :31:51.Swindon and worked inside Number 10 with Gordon Brown, where she gave
:31:51. > :31:53.him a hug every daywhether he wanted one or not. And for the
:31:53. > :31:56.Conservatives, James Gray, MP for North Wiltshire, who calls himself
:31:56. > :32:02.a "proper Conservative" and wouldn't dream of giving David
:32:02. > :32:08.Cameron a hug, even though he says they're good friends. Talking of
:32:08. > :32:11.leaders, Mr Milliband this week has distanced himself from the unions.
:32:11. > :32:21.Mr Cameron is distancing himself from greedy bosses - are they
:32:21. > :32:21.
:32:21. > :32:28.moving closer together? I wouldn't have thought so. I think
:32:28. > :32:34.what David was talking about during the week is very sensible. Some of
:32:34. > :32:40.the salaries in the City you hear about, nobody's Labour can possibly
:32:40. > :32:48.be worth �100 million. So I think the Commons was sensible. These
:32:48. > :32:53.were things Ed Miliband was saying last year. He might be in trouble
:32:53. > :32:58.with the right-wing press but he is certainly not in trouble with me.
:32:58. > :33:04.You supported Ed Balls and the leadership. He was my second choice.
:33:04. > :33:09.You picked a wrong one! No, I think all leaders, when you are taking
:33:09. > :33:13.over from what was a pretty bad election result for us in 2010, all
:33:13. > :33:19.leaders, the first one after that result is going to find it
:33:19. > :33:22.difficult. Due what Mr Miliband to stay for the next election? I am an
:33:22. > :33:28.active member of the Safe Ed Miliband campaign. He is absolutely
:33:29. > :33:33.hopeless. And nice fellow, not a bad man. His is complete nonsense,
:33:33. > :33:37.of course. What aid is doing in his speech, he is setting out strong
:33:37. > :33:42.leadership goals for this year. I think he is doing really well.
:33:42. > :33:45.shall wait and see. Elections are being held this year
:33:45. > :33:48.for new police commissioners. Their job will be to hold your local
:33:48. > :33:51.force to account. The successful candidate will be able to hire the
:33:51. > :33:57.chief constable and earn up to �100,000 a year. Paul Barltrop
:33:57. > :34:01.reports on how the police are trying to reconnect with the public.
:34:01. > :34:06.The challenge of modern crime. The latest figures show that overall it
:34:06. > :34:10.is down, but robberies are up, especially on our streets. And
:34:10. > :34:12.that's where a new initiative in Gloucestershire is focused. It's
:34:12. > :34:17.called Streetwatch - ordinary folk out on patrol, unaccompanied,
:34:17. > :34:20.though for this week's launch they had uniformed officers alongside.
:34:20. > :34:22.The force chose this innovation, but officers are wary of another
:34:22. > :34:32.coming their way - elected police commissioners, ordered by the
:34:32. > :34:33.
:34:33. > :34:37.government. What people want is to see us get away from the political
:34:37. > :34:41.accountability of the last few years and restore democratic
:34:41. > :34:44.accountability, giving a local voice to people and what is
:34:44. > :34:46.happening in their area. Presently, the Home Secretary sets
:34:46. > :34:49.overall strategies and provides national funding to police
:34:49. > :34:53.authorities, made up of local councillors and appointees. They
:34:53. > :34:56.fix budgets and hold police forces to account.
:34:56. > :34:58.It's these worthies who'll be swept aside, in favour of an elected,
:34:58. > :35:01.salaried commissioner. So this could be one of the last meetings
:35:01. > :35:05.of the Avon and Somerset Police Authority. But fear not, they may
:35:05. > :35:15.still have a role on the new Police and Crime Panels who will
:35:15. > :35:15.
:35:15. > :35:19.scrutinise the commissioners elected in November.
:35:19. > :35:25.Let's talk to Dr Tim Brain, who was chief constable of Gloucestershire
:35:25. > :35:29.police. He is now a research fellow at Cardiff University. Are you
:35:29. > :35:34.going to stand? I have to say, it is not time to make that decision
:35:34. > :35:38.yet. Anybody who is concerned about communities and policing and not
:35:38. > :35:41.concerned that much about politics will consider it is important to
:35:41. > :35:44.have an independent voice in these new arrangements. But these
:35:44. > :35:50.arrangements will be loaded in favour of the standard political
:35:50. > :35:54.parties. It has been designed by politicians for politicians. So you
:35:54. > :35:58.don't think you did get elected as an independent? I think they will
:35:58. > :36:01.find it difficult. They don't have a party machine to get them through
:36:01. > :36:06.the electoral process. So you say you might stand in Gloucestershire.
:36:06. > :36:13.Say you did a new one, the chief constable there has the ex-chief
:36:13. > :36:19.popping along to stick his oration. These new commissioners are going
:36:19. > :36:24.to be a permanent part of the scene. They will turn up once a fortnight,
:36:24. > :36:27.once a month. So who is in charge? The government intends the chief
:36:27. > :36:31.constable to be in charge of operations and have directional
:36:31. > :36:36.control of the force, but it will be in a different political context.
:36:36. > :36:40.I am not in favour of this course, there was room for reforming the
:36:40. > :36:44.old police authorities and making them more accountable, but not to
:36:44. > :36:49.so much power being concentrated in one person, even if that person is
:36:49. > :36:52.elected once every four years. It is quite autocratic, in fact. But
:36:52. > :37:00.there is a sharing of power and the two individuals will just have to
:37:00. > :37:07.get along. I will see some -- I can see some rows coming up. They will
:37:07. > :37:13.probably be behind closed doors though. There will be some egos.
:37:13. > :37:17.Corridors of power. James Gray, how many people do you meet in your
:37:17. > :37:22.constituency you say, what we really need is an elected police
:37:22. > :37:27.commissioner on �100,000 a year? have not met a single person who
:37:27. > :37:37.says that. I am not commenced there is any need for these people at
:37:37. > :37:37.
:37:37. > :37:42.will. I'm not certain we have a gap. If we do have them, I think Tim is
:37:42. > :37:46.wrong. I would like to see someone independent. We have two or three
:37:46. > :37:49.independents and the House of Commons. But he is saying he'd have
:37:49. > :37:54.of England independent could get elected because they need a party
:37:55. > :38:00.machine behind them. Also, you must -- you must take into account that
:38:00. > :38:08.is a large constituencies. How you meant to put leaflets in everyone's
:38:08. > :38:12.door. I'd say we can find a way around that. It doesn't have to be
:38:12. > :38:19.party political. If there are people who will be out there in
:38:19. > :38:28.good at it, go for it! We will find a way. Labour was against this from
:38:29. > :38:33.the start. If there is an election coming up, a major party cannot
:38:33. > :38:36.fail to take part. But we are in the middle of a very deep recession.
:38:36. > :38:44.We're going to see thousands of police officers made redundant in
:38:44. > :38:49.the next couple of years. We will see a shrinking, fewer police
:38:49. > :38:52.officers on the street because of the cuts. And yet at the same time
:38:52. > :38:57.we're going to be spending billions on electing these police
:38:57. > :39:03.commissioners and is going to cost at least �112 million more to run
:39:03. > :39:11.the police commissioners in this country. Will it help that there
:39:11. > :39:15.will be a face for the public? not at all. I'm not sure how much
:39:15. > :39:20.it is going to cost for the election, I think that is a bit of
:39:20. > :39:26.an exaggeration. It is �112 million more than it is at the moment. The
:39:26. > :39:35.issue far as is that two is right. The constituencies are large, it is
:39:35. > :39:39.like the European elections. one thing I can say about all this
:39:39. > :39:44.is police chiefs and the forces behind them happily sink at their
:39:44. > :39:47.heart. They're going to try and make this work. It is a dangerous
:39:47. > :39:51.politicisation of a system that hitherto has been renowned
:39:51. > :39:56.throughout the world for being a political. Thank you for coming in
:39:56. > :39:59.and sharing it with us. If you are young and looking for
:39:59. > :40:02.work, you will know that it's almost as hard to get work
:40:03. > :40:05.experience as it is to get an actual job. The demand is so high
:40:05. > :40:08.that some companies are charging people for work experience, with
:40:08. > :40:11.youngsters often paying more than �100 a day for that precious line
:40:12. > :40:17.on their CVs. So is it right? And are even MPs using free labour,
:40:17. > :40:20.dressed up as work experience? Dickon Hooper reports.
:40:20. > :40:30.Students know how important it is to get work experience nowadays -
:40:30. > :40:30.
:40:30. > :40:35.without it you've little or no chance of getting a job. Would you
:40:35. > :40:40.pay to get work experience? I'm not sure about that. Personally, I know
:40:40. > :40:43.because I don't think it's worth it. It's something they want you to do
:40:43. > :40:47.that their company. They are benefiting from you being there
:40:47. > :40:50.anyway. If it was needed for you to get the job, then yes.
:40:50. > :40:52.This Somerset company takes a fee for putting people in touch with
:40:52. > :41:00.small businesses who'll provide that experience and training - so
:41:00. > :41:04.long as you pay for it. We're providing people with the
:41:04. > :41:08.opportunity to put a fantastic set of information on their CV. If you
:41:08. > :41:12.want to get work experience for a large company, it is reasonable
:41:12. > :41:14.that these large multinationals have a corporate social
:41:14. > :41:18.responsibility and therefore will provide this kind of training for
:41:18. > :41:21.free. But if you look at smaller companies where you have one or two
:41:21. > :41:26.people working in the business, typically they don't provide
:41:26. > :41:30.training because they don't have the money or resources.
:41:30. > :41:33.Sadgrove does run other businesses. If you want experience as a
:41:33. > :41:40.copywriter with them, you will have to pay. You think you are aware
:41:40. > :41:43.that paying you �130 a day for that? I don't think �130 is frankly
:41:43. > :41:48.enough for someone to get the kind of experience they can get here, to
:41:48. > :41:55.be honest. Graham Light is a photographer in Gloucestershire.
:41:55. > :42:00.You can get a day with him for �95. What they get is my experience of
:42:00. > :42:03.35 years in this industry, where I can guide them and show them the
:42:03. > :42:07.various aspects of the industry that might be relevant. I also
:42:07. > :42:11.think they put more value on it if they have actually invested some of
:42:11. > :42:14.their money into it. It's not the sort of thing I'm doing to make
:42:14. > :42:20.money, because to be honest I would normally charge a lot more than
:42:20. > :42:24.that for a date. But critics say pain for work experience means it
:42:24. > :42:27.is not open to everyone. The Deputy Prime Minister himself says
:42:27. > :42:34.internships hold back social mobility, even though Westminster
:42:34. > :42:41.is awash with them. All political parties have been running offices
:42:41. > :42:44.on the efforts of underpaid or none pay people for far too long.
:42:44. > :42:52.One of our MPs has gone further, paying out of her own pocket to
:42:52. > :42:55.help youngsters get on the jobs ladder. I have had over 40 young
:42:55. > :42:59.people through my office doing work-experience in the last year. I
:42:59. > :43:06.paid for their lunchers and travel out of my personal money, not
:43:06. > :43:10.taxpayers' money, not party money, my own pocket. But I think it is a
:43:10. > :43:13.fantastic opportunity for young people actually see what it is like.
:43:13. > :43:17.For these students then, some tough decisions ahead, which may well
:43:17. > :43:20.depend on their ability to pay for them.
:43:20. > :43:22.Gus Baker is the President of Bristol Students' Union and
:43:22. > :43:32.campaigner for Intern Aware - what's wrong with companies
:43:32. > :43:32.
:43:32. > :43:36.charging students for work placement or Internships? Unpaid
:43:36. > :43:41.internships are biased against people who cannot afford them. They
:43:41. > :43:48.are often in London where costs are particularly high. For one month,
:43:48. > :43:52.it would cost you �1,000. You're paying to work for free. OK if you
:43:52. > :44:00.have the Bank of mum and dad behind you. Exactly. So you get hard-
:44:00. > :44:03.working, talented people who have played by the rules with good
:44:03. > :44:08.degrees, and the door is slammed in their face by these and paid into
:44:08. > :44:12.chips. Would experience lesson number one - life isn't fair, get
:44:12. > :44:16.used to it. But there is no need for that. The national minimum wage
:44:16. > :44:22.should be enforced. Then people just won't offer internships, will
:44:22. > :44:29.they? Why would they want to pay �6 an hour for a graduate to come
:44:29. > :44:34.around and have a look? Graduates of universities have fantastic
:44:34. > :44:43.skills, they are well qualified and educated and they are worth that 6p
:44:43. > :44:47.an hour. There were fit to those companies. -- �6 an hour. They are
:44:47. > :44:52.worth it. It seems there is some exploitation going on, we do agree
:44:52. > :45:00.with that? I would. I think politicians should be on the bright
:45:00. > :45:07.side of this. They should not be taking on its young people and not
:45:07. > :45:13.paying for them. It is worth a lot to have that on their CV. It is of
:45:13. > :45:16.value, so that is the payment, in a way. Well, if only a certain group
:45:16. > :45:24.of people can come into my office to get that experience because of
:45:24. > :45:27.wealth, not ability, then that is wrong. I did pay some of my intense
:45:27. > :45:35.the national minimum wage. Not all of them? No, because some of them
:45:35. > :45:39.were doing one day a week and it was not classed as an internship.
:45:39. > :45:43.Volunteering, work-experience. is quite a grey area. Why would you
:45:43. > :45:47.pay someone to come and get some training for you? If they are
:45:47. > :45:52.shadowing, just watching what is going on, then of course they don't
:45:52. > :45:58.need to be paid. But what is actually happening is people are
:45:58. > :46:02.doing real work, work that otherwise employees would be doing.
:46:02. > :46:08.I guess it comes back to moral capitalism, really. If companies
:46:08. > :46:12.were run by a loyal -- more people, they wouldn't do that. Well,
:46:12. > :46:18.Parliament is different. My office is very small, I have one person
:46:18. > :46:21.working for me, so I don't have a need for work experience. But out
:46:21. > :46:28.there in the big world, the question is, do you take someone
:46:28. > :46:34.for an unpaid internship if you are a company that is doing badly, or
:46:34. > :46:40.nobody at all? But absolutely take your point about London. How you
:46:40. > :46:43.expected to live in London and work for nothing? When I was looking for
:46:43. > :46:50.work, there were companies looking for graduates and their what were
:46:50. > :46:54.you, they would try to get you. Now it is a different type of the cycle.
:46:54. > :47:01.It is an employers' market at the moment. It is really hurting people
:47:01. > :47:04.and these are illegal placements. The National Minimum wage Act says
:47:04. > :47:09.that if you were doing work you must be paid their least �6.80 p an
:47:09. > :47:14.hour. There are cases at tribunals that have come back with that
:47:14. > :47:23.result. If there any young people watching you feel they have been
:47:23. > :47:28.exploited, go to a website -- our website for more information.
:47:28. > :47:31.thank you for joining us. It's been a busy political week
:47:31. > :47:36.again here in the West - we've crammed the highlights into our 60
:47:36. > :47:44.second round up. Two areas in the west are to trial
:47:44. > :47:46.a badger cull - farmers can now apply for a license to shoot them.
:47:46. > :47:48.Unemployment rose again...and a warning from a local recruitment
:47:48. > :47:51.firm to public sector workers looking for jobs
:47:51. > :48:01.Book lovers in Gloucestershire say they'll take their fight to save
:48:01. > :48:01.
:48:01. > :48:11.libraries back to court. Another delay for Bristol City's
:48:11. > :48:12.
:48:12. > :48:15.new stadium. Book lovers in Gloucestershire say
:48:15. > :48:18.they'll take their fight to save libraries back to court. The
:48:18. > :48:20.council have promised to save three, but seven others face closure
:48:20. > :48:23.unless volunteers step in. And in a parallel universe, Jacob
:48:23. > :48:29.Rees-Mogg joked clocks in Somerset should be 15 minutes behind
:48:29. > :48:35.everyone else! People in Somerset are so clever that they can deal
:48:35. > :48:43.with these things. People in other places around the country can't.
:48:43. > :48:52.Work that one out when you're trying to catch a train! James, you
:48:52. > :48:59.voted for a badger cull - will it work? That's right, 25,000 cows are
:48:59. > :49:03.killed because of TB. Throughout the world, the any way you can
:49:03. > :49:07.eliminate TV in Cowes is by getting rid of the badgers and the other
:49:07. > :49:12.wildlife that carry it. So it has to be done, alongside other
:49:12. > :49:17.strategies like inoculation. think inoculation is the way to go.
:49:17. > :49:27.There a lot of new companies setting up to do this. If you cull
:49:27. > :49:28.
:49:28. > :49:34.badgers in another area, a new set will arrive. If you cold 70% of the
:49:34. > :49:41.badgers, you reduce -- you reduce TB by 17%. It is not a huge
:49:41. > :49:46.decrease. We had Carling in this country until 1980. There are now
:49:46. > :49:52.�25,000 a year. It cost us �10 billion and the next 10 years.
:49:52. > :49:58.about the badgers? We are a country that loves our wildlife. The badger
:49:58. > :50:02.cull will cost a lot of money and devastate... It will cost us
:50:02. > :50:07.nothing. The farmers are doing it themselves. Well, it will not be
:50:07. > :50:12.very successful, because if you just have a farmer with a gun going
:50:12. > :50:18.out shooting the badgers, how is he going, he is not going to get all
:50:18. > :50:23.of them? The other day, Anne Snelgrove was in here telling me we
:50:23. > :50:32.couldn't kill foxes using dogs. She said, let's get people out to shoot
:50:32. > :50:38.the foxes. How can country people win?! I don't think it's fair,
:50:38. > :50:43.there are more effective ways of keeping tea be away from cows. One
:50:43. > :50:48.of them would be to secure the bonds -- the barns so the bad just
:50:48. > :50:53.don't come in for the feed. there was, we would have done it