:01:23. > :01:26.In the West - With a huge increase in the number of Brits being jailed
:01:26. > :01:36.in European prisons, we ask if it's time to reform our extradition
:01:36. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :31:16.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1780 seconds
:31:16. > :31:21.Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West. But coming up, the Brits
:31:21. > :31:26.or hauled off to foreign prisons under the European arrest warrant.
:31:26. > :31:34.Is there any justice in it? Before you get an early morning
:31:34. > :31:38.upon the door from the euro police, let me introduce hour two guests.
:31:38. > :31:41.They are two Sisters of the coalition, Charlotte Leslie, a
:31:41. > :31:47.Conservative bruiser who loves to box in her spare time, and Tessa
:31:47. > :31:54.Munt, who has also been in a few scraps in her time, and she is a
:31:54. > :31:58.Lib Dem MP for Wells? Are their tensions emerging between
:31:58. > :32:05.the two parties this last week? They have been no punch-ups in the
:32:05. > :32:09.Commons! Who is in charge?
:32:09. > :32:12.It is a coalition. There has been some compromise, as you would
:32:12. > :32:16.expect, but we are united in the challenge we are facing in bringing
:32:16. > :32:20.the country through the awful legacy left by the last government,
:32:20. > :32:25.and it is that common aim that is keeping us together. There are
:32:25. > :32:30.tough moments, but we have to stage together.
:32:30. > :32:33.When it last? Yes, it will. We have to make sure
:32:33. > :32:37.we're all doing the right thing for the country, and it is absolutely
:32:37. > :32:41.clear from my point of view that there are Lib Dem policies being
:32:41. > :32:45.brought into practice. The voters see you as the head of
:32:45. > :32:49.blame, and that you will get hammered at the next election. That
:32:49. > :32:54.is what the indications are. I do not think the polls are
:32:54. > :32:58.correct here. We shall see.
:32:58. > :33:01.First, to our story about extradition.
:33:01. > :33:04.The European Arrest Warrant has seen scores of Britons banged up in
:33:04. > :33:11.foreign jails after being handed over by our own bodies. Under the
:33:11. > :33:17.terms of the agreement, British citizens can be arrested on the
:33:17. > :33:20.order of any European state to face charges.
:33:20. > :33:24.Over 1000 miles from home, Michael Turner from Dorset and Jason
:33:24. > :33:29.McGoldrick from Devon were held in this prison after being arrested
:33:29. > :33:34.when their timeshare marketing company collapsed, owing �18,000.
:33:34. > :33:39.It was back in 2009 that they were extradited to this jail. Michael
:33:39. > :33:43.says he was interviewed only once by police, and kept in his cell for
:33:43. > :33:48.23 hours a day. The warrant was designed to catch
:33:48. > :33:52.murderers and terrorists, like this man, Hussain Osman. He was wanted
:33:52. > :33:56.over the failed London bombings in 2005, and was extradited under the
:33:56. > :34:02.European Arrest Warrant from Italy back to the UK.
:34:02. > :34:06.Graham Watson, the south-west Lib Dem MEP, was a key architect.
:34:06. > :34:10.It has vastly enhance the role of law on our continent.
:34:10. > :34:17.The European Arrest Warrant swept away at a stroke the safeguards
:34:17. > :34:24.against the rest established in Britain over 1000 years.
:34:24. > :34:28.You may shake your head. In the Commons, a grouping MPs says
:34:29. > :34:35.there is urgent need for reform of the system. 16,007, the nub of
:34:35. > :34:40.arrest warrants have dramatically increased. -- since 2007.
:34:40. > :34:44.We have 15 times more warrants than opponent. We have got to put in
:34:44. > :34:51.place some basic checks to make sure that the innocent are not
:34:51. > :34:55.swept along with those that we need brought to justice. -- opponent.
:34:55. > :35:00.These two will be back in Hungary in June to face charges of fraud,
:35:00. > :35:03.which they deny. Meanwhile, the Home Office are considering changes
:35:03. > :35:08.to the extradition agreements with Europe and the United States to
:35:08. > :35:12.provide greater protection for British citizens.
:35:12. > :35:19.You saw him in that piece, William Dartmouth, he joins me now in our
:35:19. > :35:26.studio. What is the problem? You asked if there is any justice,
:35:26. > :35:30.and the answer is no, there is not. It is being used for offences which
:35:30. > :35:34.are comparatively trivial. A British judge does not have the
:35:34. > :35:44.right to look at the primary evidence, there is absolutely no
:35:44. > :35:47.
:35:47. > :35:51.safeguard. Only 10 out of 210 in 2009.
:35:51. > :35:56.If it it has got a European label, the Lib Dems say it must be
:35:56. > :35:59.alright! Produce a back -- British subject are being surrendered to
:35:59. > :36:04.harsh legal systems, for example, the Hungarian system permits
:36:04. > :36:09.someone to be in remand prison, to be held in remand prison under very
:36:09. > :36:14.harsh conditions for up to three years before coming to trial.
:36:14. > :36:18.Justice is to be done, and it is a small world. It is easy to commit a
:36:18. > :36:22.crime anywhere in the world. It is daft to have border controls in
:36:22. > :36:27.place that stop criminals being apprehended.
:36:27. > :36:35.Police forces and governments have co-operated across boundaries since
:36:35. > :36:40.before the Second World War. For example, Britain has been a member
:36:40. > :36:44.of Interpol since 1923. We can perfectly well to operate on
:36:44. > :36:49.serious crime, for example, terrorism, without at the same time
:36:50. > :36:54.giving away our hard-won liberties. I must make a serious point, which
:36:54. > :37:01.is that the European Court of Human Rights has intervened to prevent
:37:01. > :37:06.Abu Qatada's deportation back to Jordan. So the fact of the mattress,
:37:06. > :37:14.the mess we have got ourselves in, spearheaded by the Liberal Democrat,
:37:14. > :37:18.has meant that on one level, we cannot defend our own people. We
:37:18. > :37:23.cannot... It was not very long ago that you
:37:23. > :37:27.could not touch a criminal in Spain. It was the Costa del Sol, and they
:37:27. > :37:33.were laughing at the British authorities. This has changed. That
:37:33. > :37:38.has to be a good thing. No, that was changed in 2001, when
:37:38. > :37:42.Jack Straw, the then Home Secretary, introduced a fast-track extradition
:37:42. > :37:50.treaty with Spain. So you like that?
:37:50. > :37:53.Yes, but no -- but not no questions asked. The film made a connection
:37:53. > :38:03.between the European arrest warrant and the treaty between the US and
:38:03. > :38:03.
:38:03. > :38:07.the UK. Let's bring in other guests. The
:38:07. > :38:11.Tories have and puff about Europe a lot, but they are allowing this to
:38:11. > :38:15.go ahead. Justice is not being done, and if
:38:15. > :38:20.you look at the proportion of it, for every one person that is given
:38:20. > :38:26.over to us in extradition, we give nine back, so it is not working out.
:38:26. > :38:31.It was a knee-jerk reaction after 9/11, and the intentions were
:38:31. > :38:34.absolutely right. It rests on the basis that justice systems in
:38:35. > :38:38.European countries are the same as ours. There is a lot of talk about
:38:38. > :38:43.human rights, but it is clear that they are not being protected for
:38:43. > :38:47.our citizens. Tessa, what a day mistake by your
:38:47. > :38:52.colleagues to pave the way for this legislation in Europe? -- what it a
:38:52. > :38:56.mistake. No, I do not think it was. There
:38:56. > :39:01.are lots of tariffs, drug smugglers and goodness knows how many other
:39:01. > :39:05.people who have been moved around to be tried. It is ludicrous to
:39:05. > :39:08.suggest that we should not have something. What it has done is it
:39:08. > :39:13.has identified that there are different regimes and different
:39:13. > :39:17.standards across Europe. Europe has recognised this and has
:39:17. > :39:21.acknowledged it is not being used properly.
:39:21. > :39:27.But it has not done anything about it. Politicians make mistakes all
:39:27. > :39:31.the time in their legislation. However, what this piece of
:39:31. > :39:36.legislation has done and why it is particularly pension should -- a
:39:36. > :39:40.particularly pernicious is because it is ruining people's lives. What
:39:40. > :39:47.these people are accused of his four events that took place between
:39:47. > :39:51.2003 and a 2005. They will get a verdict in June 2012. I was that
:39:51. > :39:54.the first day of the hearing, and I can assure the two Ladies opposite
:39:54. > :40:01.that David was in Britain, what they were accused of would be taken
:40:01. > :40:06.place in a civil court, probably a small claims court.
:40:06. > :40:10.It is being used for investigation and not persecution. It needs
:40:10. > :40:14.cross-party agreement that this is to change, and we have that. I
:40:14. > :40:18.spoke in a debate that we just saw, and I was talking about a wider
:40:18. > :40:21.review of arrangements, as the government is looking at the report
:40:21. > :40:27.that is looking to change it, and there is agreement at hope that we
:40:27. > :40:32.can do that. It has been there for nine years.
:40:32. > :40:37.It is a bit late now! It was never intended to be used in
:40:37. > :40:46.a disproportionate weight. When you have got to be punished try to
:40:46. > :40:50.extradite people for stealing bikes... -- the punish.
:40:50. > :40:57.They commissioned a big report, and we have had had a lot of debate, a
:40:57. > :41:00.lot of people have spoken, and we hope it will be reformed.
:41:00. > :41:07.In the meantime, people's lives will continue to be rent until this
:41:07. > :41:12.legislation is suspended. -- continued to be run into.
:41:12. > :41:15.We have to stop there. Charlotte and Tessa were among 230 new
:41:15. > :41:21.arrivals in Parliament after the last election. As with any new job,
:41:22. > :41:26.it takes time to settle in. But two years on, many express frustration
:41:26. > :41:31.about what they consider to be the fuddy-duddy ways of Parliament.
:41:31. > :41:36.It was an injection of youth and enthusiasm. More than one-third of
:41:36. > :41:40.the MPs elected in 2010 were new. Few could have known what they were
:41:40. > :41:45.letting themselves in for. This is the most public face of Parliament,
:41:45. > :41:51.the weekly performance that is Prime Minister's Questions. But the
:41:51. > :41:59.chamber gives a misleading picture. The Commons sits from 2:30pm to
:41:59. > :42:07.10pm. On Thursday it is an hour earlier.
:42:07. > :42:12.Occasionally, MPs coming on Fridays. And in reality, most of the time,
:42:12. > :42:16.most of the seeds are empty. Westminster Hall acts as an
:42:16. > :42:21.overflow for smaller debate. This one, on reforming Parliament, was
:42:21. > :42:24.well attended. The public's suspicion about MPs'
:42:24. > :42:29.behaviour following the expenses scandal has not gone away. Many
:42:29. > :42:33.people are asking what exactly is it that MPs do?
:42:33. > :42:41.Notes the abundance of pens and paper rather than any form of
:42:41. > :42:51.computer nerds. -- computer. We should be trying iPad Fat
:42:51. > :42:52.
:42:52. > :42:56.Prophets in committee. -- iPads. The but many advances are resisted.
:42:56. > :43:00.There is a question about electronic voting. I know there
:43:00. > :43:06.will be a sharp intake of breath when I say that!
:43:06. > :43:10.Is dead, voting is done through walking through lobbies. One person
:43:10. > :43:14.says MPs should be freer to challenge government.
:43:14. > :43:17.The role of Parliament is not to run the country, it is to hold to
:43:17. > :43:22.account those who do. I think members of parliament should take
:43:22. > :43:26.much more seriously their role of holding government to account at
:43:26. > :43:29.being parliamentarians first and then perhaps some members of the
:43:30. > :43:34.government or possible members of the Government's second.
:43:34. > :43:37.MPs can independently bring forward it meant -- motions at Private
:43:37. > :43:44.Member's Bills, but these almost never made it onto the statute
:43:44. > :43:51.books. I'll -- I often think the Commons
:43:51. > :43:55.is a sophisticated open prison. We say you will sign mind if I will
:43:55. > :43:59.sign yours. These things do not affect the direction of government,
:43:59. > :44:02.all the way in which we are governed, and Private Member's
:44:02. > :44:07.Bills are a classic example. It is very frustrating to have one and
:44:07. > :44:12.five government's talking out your bill. -- government.
:44:12. > :44:16.That is what happened recently to a daylight Saving Bill. Jacob Rees-
:44:16. > :44:20.Mogg was among a small group determined to kill it off.
:44:20. > :44:25.I notice that when I propose that Somerset should have his own time
:44:25. > :44:30.zone, which seems to me a personal -- perfectly rational thing, this
:44:30. > :44:34.was thought to be slightly eccentric.
:44:34. > :44:38.This has come back again, and this is probably less a debate about
:44:38. > :44:42.daylight saving and more about the debate about the internal process
:44:42. > :44:47.getting the way of getting something done.
:44:47. > :44:53.Dennis praise for the work of select committees. At hope that a
:44:53. > :44:57.forthcoming report on the role of MPs may bring about change.
:44:57. > :45:01.If you cannot take a joke you should not have joined! IUD
:45:01. > :45:06.disillusioned after a couple of years in Parliament?
:45:06. > :45:10.I am not, because for me it is fantastic. I can go and talk to
:45:10. > :45:13.ministers and get things changed, and achieve what I want to. I
:45:13. > :45:18.always said when I elected that if I could change one thing, that is
:45:18. > :45:23.brilliant. Have you changed one thing?
:45:23. > :45:28.Are probably more than that. You have turned a bid for a long
:45:28. > :45:32.time. Now you are there. Is it what it is cracked up to be?
:45:32. > :45:36.Yes, it is a fantastic job and you get -- and you can get things
:45:36. > :45:41.changed. But you should not look at it objected -- you should look at
:45:41. > :45:45.it objectively, and it is difficult, because you can get swallowed up by
:45:45. > :45:49.the system. There are ways of thinking that it is really
:45:49. > :45:54.dislocated from reality. After a few days in that place, from Monday
:45:54. > :46:01.to Wednesday, you have been with the same people all week, you eat
:46:01. > :46:05.in the same canteens, you really crave... It is really good to get
:46:05. > :46:11.back to the constituency and see what real life is like, and it is a
:46:11. > :46:16.constant quest to get back there. One of the points made was about
:46:16. > :46:20.your prime job. Do you see it as representing opposite was on
:46:20. > :46:24.holding the government to account? For I see my job in the
:46:24. > :46:27.constituency as taking information, soaking up information from my
:46:27. > :46:33.constituents about the things that go wrong for them, and then going
:46:33. > :46:38.to London and sorting that stuff up. That is the way I see it.
:46:38. > :46:42.On your way policy-maker? No, I am socially a social worker.
:46:42. > :46:47.No offence to any of them who are watching. It is probably very
:46:47. > :46:53.similar to that, because I am the one person to whom people can come
:46:53. > :46:57.to as what they see as the last resort. It is fantastic.
:46:57. > :47:03.What about the rules and regulations? We saw Jacob Rees-Mogg
:47:04. > :47:07.talking out that Bill. People make a distinction between
:47:08. > :47:14.Parliament and the constituency, but I see the constituency about --
:47:14. > :47:19.as reality. You get reality from real life, and politics has to get
:47:19. > :47:23.real. On the arcane processes, the daylight Saving Bill was
:47:23. > :47:28.infuriating, because unusually, there was a real cross-party
:47:28. > :47:32.agreement that something needed to change. Over 100 MPs, which is
:47:32. > :47:38.remarkable, stayed away from their constituencies to come to this
:47:38. > :47:44.review, which the country wanted. It was not debated, it was simply
:47:44. > :47:48.told that? Yes, at that should never happen. I
:47:48. > :47:58.would like to see private members' bills on a Wednesday evening so we
:47:58. > :47:58.
:47:58. > :48:03.can all go as talk about them. -- all go and talk about them.
:48:03. > :48:10.The rules mean we have to push on! It is time for other sprint through
:48:10. > :48:13.the political week in just 60 seconds. -- our sprinter.
:48:13. > :48:17.The last of the West's big councils have been setting their budgets,
:48:17. > :48:22.but Bristol and well she joined our other councils in confirming they
:48:22. > :48:25.will not be put in a their charges. -- Wiltshire.
:48:25. > :48:30.Organisers of the annual St Paul's Carnival say this year's
:48:30. > :48:33.celebration will be smaller because they have not had enough donations.
:48:33. > :48:37.It is part funded by the city council and attract up to 100,000
:48:37. > :48:41.people. Protesters have been occupied part
:48:41. > :48:45.of the Hinkley Point site in Somerset have been evicted and
:48:45. > :48:49.never to return. The GMB union has announced a 12
:48:49. > :48:53.more strike days at Swindon's Great Western Hospital. Cleaners and
:48:53. > :48:58.domestic workers are in a dispute with their employer, Carillion.
:48:58. > :49:02.We have had a lot about privatisation, but this week,
:49:02. > :49:07.Somerset County Council say there are two Lumiere privatise some
:49:07. > :49:15.projects. -- they are to un- privatise. They have decided it is
:49:15. > :49:20.cheaper to do some things in house. That was the week that has just
:49:20. > :49:28.flashed past. Let's pick up that story about
:49:28. > :49:35.privatisation. Southwest One, this un-privitisation, if that is such a
:49:35. > :49:40.word. Are the days of selling off services coming to an end?
:49:40. > :49:47.I had a questionable palp -- punch up with the County Council over the
:49:47. > :49:51.last few months about this. Youth services, the young carer service,
:49:51. > :49:54.all the youth clubs, bus services. They're trying to divest themselves
:49:55. > :49:59.of any responsibility to provide a service for those who are
:49:59. > :50:04.vulnerable in any way, and I have to say it is good to see them, and
:50:04. > :50:12.I in favour of them are getting much more like this.
:50:12. > :50:17.I UA fan of privitisation? I am a fan of whatever the world's
:50:17. > :50:26.best. Sometimes, the private sector does things better. -- whatever is
:50:26. > :50:29.best. New Labour and the Conservatives
:50:29. > :50:34.have talked about privatisation, and in some cases it has been
:50:34. > :50:38.magnificent. But we have got to be open about it and say that they may
:50:39. > :50:42.be cases where it is not right. My first campaign was against
:50:42. > :50:50.privatisation, but there are some cases where charities and private
:50:50. > :50:53.organisations can run things better. Thank you. That is it from the West
:50:54. > :50:58.this week. The Sunday Politics continues with Andrew, who is in