:01:27. > :01:30.In the west: the Tory who told us that the Euro Project would end in
:01:30. > :01:40.tears. David Heathcoat Amory has written a book on his fight against
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :31:42.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1801 seconds
:31:42. > :31:45.Europe, but what happens in the Thank you and welcome to Sunday
:31:45. > :31:51.Politics West. Coming up in the next 20 minutes, what are we going
:31:51. > :31:54.to do about Europe? Our biggest trading partner is in chaos
:31:55. > :31:57.threatening jobs and living standards. Will be your way track
:31:57. > :32:01.us down as well? As Greece decides whether to leave
:32:02. > :32:06.the Euro, we are joined by two politicians who know what it is
:32:06. > :32:12.like to be thrown out of the club because of both of my guests lost
:32:12. > :32:19.their seats at the last election. They are David Heathcoat Amory and
:32:19. > :32:24.David Drew. We are now freed from the party whips and they can say
:32:24. > :32:29.what they really think. Welcome to you both. David on the
:32:29. > :32:33.end, what is lifelike outside of politics? It is fine in some
:32:33. > :32:39.respects. I miss not being in Parliament, but I have been pre-
:32:39. > :32:43.selected as the Labour co-operative candidate so I am busy as ever and
:32:43. > :32:51.a councillor on Stroud District. That will be an interesting time
:32:51. > :32:55.and I am doing a PhD looking at rural politics so busy as ever.
:32:55. > :33:01.Join the club. The other David, it was a long career that you had, you
:33:01. > :33:07.did not want to go, but you have to. How are you finding things? I miss
:33:07. > :33:13.it. It is a privilege to be an MP. But there is life outside politics,
:33:13. > :33:18.I am still busy and in business now. I am the chairman of a property
:33:18. > :33:23.company so I am doing good for the economy, helping people, paying tax
:33:23. > :33:28.and helping the economy grow. I am also the chairman of a fund-raising
:33:28. > :33:34.committee for the Diamond Jubilee pageant. I built a hydro scheme,
:33:34. > :33:37.written a book. Have you had enough? That is enough for the time
:33:37. > :33:42.being. The crisis in the euro-zone, fear
:33:42. > :33:46.that jobs and income could be dragged into the mess. We can't say
:33:46. > :33:49.that we weren't warned about the Euro. David Heathcoat Amory was one
:33:49. > :33:54.of those Conservatives who banged on about Europe endlessly. Now he
:33:54. > :33:58.has written a book. Remember this? Wiliam Hague
:33:58. > :34:03.campaigning against the Euro in Somerset. He judged that the West
:34:03. > :34:08.Country was a hotbed of resistance. I am delighted to be here in
:34:08. > :34:13.Taunton as one of the first stops of the campaign. It was a passion
:34:13. > :34:17.for one of the party's MPs at the time, David Heathcoat Amory. He is
:34:17. > :34:24.one of the Conservatives said Mr Cameron accuses of banging on about
:34:24. > :34:29.the Euro. The we will be submitting ourselves formally and irreversibly
:34:30. > :34:34.to his superior political authority, something we have never done.
:34:34. > :34:39.even resign from John Major's government on the issue. Europe was
:34:39. > :34:46.his passion, PR skills, maybe less so. Doing my best for my
:34:46. > :34:52.constituents. I have no comment. Well it seems his predictions were
:34:52. > :34:58.right. Greece is burning with fury over the austerity imposed on them.
:34:58. > :35:02.Another Euro-sceptic, Michael Portillo, with similar views got a
:35:02. > :35:07.surprise in a TV documentary on the crisis this week. He thought
:35:07. > :35:13.everyone would want to return to the track Maher, but they did not.
:35:13. > :35:22.Something I would like to ask you all. He is a choice, euros or
:35:22. > :35:32.drachma? Euro. Which would you choose? I prefer Euro. What about
:35:32. > :35:34.
:35:34. > :35:39.you? In the end, it was not Europe that dented David Heathcoat Amory's
:35:39. > :35:44.political career, but something closer to home. A pile of manure on
:35:44. > :35:48.his garden. Although his expenses were more modest than most, he
:35:48. > :35:54.claimed for his fertiliser. It may have been enough to ensure his
:35:54. > :35:59.defeat. The questions remain, was he right about the EU? And what
:35:59. > :36:06.does he think will happen next? Just to put the cat among upright -
:36:06. > :36:09.- pigeons, I am joined by Ken Daly he is a Pro-Euro Conservative. We
:36:09. > :36:17.will chat to you in a moment, but first here is the book we were
:36:17. > :36:22.talking about. Do you feel that you have been vindicated? Frankly, yes.
:36:22. > :36:27.It is unattractive for a politician to say I told you so and I made a
:36:27. > :36:30.lot of mistakes, but I did get this one right. I think we are owed an
:36:30. > :36:36.apology by those who thought this was a passport to general
:36:36. > :36:42.prosperity in Europe. It was always a political project. Economics were
:36:42. > :36:47.always a problem. The mess has been caused by bankers, hasn't it?
:36:47. > :36:54.Greece has now had it and I feel very strongly that the workers, the
:36:54. > :36:57.poorest people, are suffering the most. The bankers are OK. The
:36:57. > :37:01.bureaucrats -- bureaucrats will not suffer, but they are sick kitchens
:37:01. > :37:07.in Athens now because foolishly they were bought into this madcap
:37:08. > :37:12.idea. But they don't want to go back. Well, they want someone else
:37:12. > :37:19.to pay. They want the Germans to continue paying the bankers so they
:37:19. > :37:22.can live happily after -- ever after. Was Mr Cameron right to say
:37:22. > :37:26.you should stop banging on about it? At the time he wanted to
:37:27. > :37:31.campaign on other things, but Europe is a big elephant in the
:37:31. > :37:35.room and if we don't get this right, we will face a milk than in Europe
:37:35. > :37:39.with unpredictable consequences. All these people have votes, you
:37:39. > :37:43.see. There is a political revolution going on and the
:37:43. > :37:48.political class in Europe have to get real, swallow their pride,
:37:48. > :37:52.admit they made a mistake and then we can get back to building a
:37:52. > :37:57.better more democratic Europe of which we can all live peacefully.
:37:57. > :38:02.Of separate states? Separate currencies. He won the whole thing
:38:02. > :38:07.to go under? I want a trade zone, but I don't want the fantasy that
:38:07. > :38:13.we can all share the same currency. This isn't working, it is a
:38:13. > :38:18.catastrophe. There is no easy way out, but we have to get back to
:38:18. > :38:24.basics. All three your career you talked about Europe, do you have --
:38:24. > :38:30.accept that it became an obsession? I did a lot of other things. I
:38:30. > :38:35.served in five ministries and I wasn't solely going on about Europe
:38:35. > :38:40.or banging on about it. It is true that the way we are governed and
:38:40. > :38:44.who governs us is very important. This is the result for me get it
:38:44. > :38:52.wrong. Let's bring the others into this. Ken Daly, he was right all
:38:52. > :38:57.along, wasn't he? Absolutely not. David has been tilting at European
:38:57. > :39:02.windmills for the last 25 years, and got it wrong most of the time.
:39:02. > :39:07.Really? Absolutely. Europe has problems at the moment, but as you
:39:07. > :39:11.said in your opening remarks, this is not just a Greek crisis or a
:39:11. > :39:16.Euro crisis, it is the latest chapter in the banking collapse.
:39:16. > :39:21.That is what has really put politicians and governments are
:39:21. > :39:25.under pressure. The only way that Britain and the other countries in
:39:25. > :39:30.Europe are going to tackle this is by working together across Europe
:39:30. > :39:39.and, indeed, I hope that with Barack Obama in the States, and
:39:39. > :39:45.they will need to do this before the Republican tea-party get him...
:39:45. > :39:52.David -- at Tony Blair almost porters into the Euro, didn't he?
:39:52. > :39:55.The best thing that Gordon Brown did was not get us into that. The
:39:55. > :40:00.experiment that we have been launched into without any clear
:40:01. > :40:05.idea of where it will end up has been a disaster. Like David, I am
:40:05. > :40:09.sympathetic. To the Spanish, the Italians, even to allow cells
:40:09. > :40:13.because part of the Disconnect with politics in this country is because
:40:13. > :40:18.people no longer feel they have leadership in this country because
:40:18. > :40:22.power has drained away. But it is still not an issue that excites
:40:22. > :40:25.most people. We will get a full postbag after this programme
:40:25. > :40:30.because people interested in Europe are very interested, but most
:40:30. > :40:35.people aren't. There is increasingly an understanding about
:40:35. > :40:41.how Europe links into a manner of other things. My critique is that I
:40:41. > :40:46.am against the single market. I believe we must trade and have co-
:40:46. > :40:51.operation, but the single market is something I think is impossible to
:40:51. > :40:56.deliver and can be a dangerous. This is a good time for country is
:40:56. > :41:00.not to work together? No, it is a time to work together, but we can
:41:00. > :41:04.do that in the macro-economic framework. It means we have to have
:41:04. > :41:10.strong leadership across Government's and that is hopefully
:41:10. > :41:14.what the G8 will do this weekend. Some attempts are going to be done
:41:14. > :41:21.to relaunch growth. At the end the West Country, do you sense that
:41:21. > :41:24.these guys have won the argument? Not really. If you look at the
:41:24. > :41:29.company in Wales with which I believe is trading vigorously in
:41:29. > :41:35.Europe, there are plenty of opportunities in Europe and plenty
:41:35. > :41:41.of jobs created in doing business with Europe. What these to overlook
:41:41. > :41:46.completely this that until the banking crisis, the single currency
:41:46. > :41:51.has been a massive success. We have had a big increase in internal
:41:51. > :41:55.trade across Europe which has created many new jobs, it has
:41:55. > :42:01.enabled businesses to increase production and reduce unit costs
:42:02. > :42:05.and to deliver a wide range of products to consumers. This has
:42:05. > :42:11.been an enormous increase in the standard of living of the citizen.
:42:11. > :42:16.You don't want to believe it, but it is a truth. This is nonsense.
:42:16. > :42:22.You can trade with people without sharing the currency. How do the
:42:22. > :42:28.Americans and Chinese sell into Europe? By trading. They also have
:42:28. > :42:34.the advantage of massive markets. really do think we need an apology
:42:34. > :42:38.from those people who said this is the way forward. They were wrong.
:42:38. > :42:44.We are not going to get out of this mess and less we have the humility
:42:44. > :42:50.to admit we were wrong. As much as though some argument within the
:42:50. > :42:56.Tory party, we have to elevated to now. I am not a member of the
:42:56. > :42:59.Conservative Party. Well, for -- formally. Let's take a pause for a
:42:59. > :43:04.minute and find that what one business thinks of us being in
:43:04. > :43:07.Europe. We went into Wales to a company that sees more pros and
:43:07. > :43:12.cons. Wales is better known for beauty
:43:12. > :43:18.than industry, but tucked away, this firm is the kind of hands on
:43:18. > :43:23.manufacturing you don't often see these days. Skilled workers
:43:23. > :43:28.cleaning and repair printer suck -- cartridges. One in five of these
:43:28. > :43:33.are packed off to countries in Europe. This firm thinks the EU is
:43:33. > :43:38.essential to business. I really believe that we should stay in the
:43:38. > :43:45.EU, the reasons are the links to the Euro. That makes our ability to
:43:45. > :43:50.trade with Europe much easier. Imports and exports are tariff free.
:43:50. > :43:56.We can move goods easily in and out which is critical. Last year,
:43:56. > :44:01.exports were worth over �1 million, but that is not all. When we were
:44:01. > :44:06.out last week, they were selling quite nice holograms out of the
:44:06. > :44:12.Czech Republic. It is not just free trade, his company get staff and
:44:12. > :44:20.grants from Europe. We recently received some funding through I met
:44:20. > :44:26.to enable us to develop our website. There is free labour around the
:44:26. > :44:30.European Europe -- union which is important. In this corner of the
:44:30. > :44:36.West, the idea of pulling out fully or partially does not stack up.
:44:36. > :44:42.The views from one company in Wales. Onshore others have other views.
:44:42. > :44:46.David Drew, this week you endorse the prospect of an in out
:44:46. > :44:52.referendum in the next government. I have long supported that, so it
:44:52. > :44:55.is nothing new. I believe that to give people confidence, they have
:44:55. > :45:02.some accountability of their leadership. It is about time they
:45:02. > :45:07.have that debate. Which way we G campaign? I am against the EU.
:45:07. > :45:14.you want out? I want out of what I see as a constraining economic
:45:14. > :45:20.entity. David, do you think Ray should be that commitment in the
:45:20. > :45:26.Conservative manifesto, and in out measure. People must be asked what
:45:26. > :45:31.they think about Europe. I think we need a relationship, but the
:45:31. > :45:36.relationship is wrong. We must establish our powers of self-
:45:36. > :45:40.government, get rid of the Euro and build a Europe on consent. That
:45:40. > :45:43.means a referendum of some sort in this country. If Labour had a
:45:43. > :45:49.referendum commitment in their manifesto and the Conservatives
:45:49. > :45:53.didn't, would you vote Labour? I will always vote Conservative
:45:53. > :45:58.because we are the only party that can deliver this. If they are
:45:58. > :46:02.saying it is likely they will have a vote, why wouldn't you back them?
:46:02. > :46:06.Because they broke their word on the last promise which was to have
:46:06. > :46:12.a referendum on the European constitution. The Liberal Democrat
:46:12. > :46:16.and the Labour Party, together, they had a coalition them. I know
:46:16. > :46:20.what happened and they denied us by a majority that vote to have a
:46:20. > :46:26.referendum on the European constitution. We were denied the
:46:26. > :46:32.promised manifesto commitment. you agree that all the parties
:46:32. > :46:38.should be -- should reflect what the public want. If it was in or
:46:38. > :46:42.out, what would you say? I would vote to leave. I think it is more
:46:42. > :46:47.complicated than that, but if it came to that choice, leave and then
:46:47. > :46:53.opt back into what we want. Daly, how would you feel about
:46:53. > :46:57.that? There is a strong possibility that people would vote for out.
:46:57. > :47:03.could be a crazy decision to come out. You are talking about a
:47:03. > :47:12.financial crisis at the present time. You have to remember, when
:47:12. > :47:18.the Euro started the pound was worth 1.60 euros. The pound has
:47:18. > :47:25.subsequently collapsed and is 1.25 euros. * All strong. But on the
:47:25. > :47:30.other hand it has dropped during that time. He would have a much
:47:30. > :47:34.bigger fall if you came up. What would happen if we left Europe? At
:47:34. > :47:39.the moment, David Cameron is crying from the sidelines saying get on
:47:39. > :47:44.and get gross. We have no say in it because we are not part of the Euro,
:47:44. > :47:50.we would have even less safe. Our economic livelihood depends on how
:47:50. > :47:57.the euro-zone does. It would not be the typed political union it has
:47:57. > :48:01.become. It needs to become a much looser confederation of states.
:48:02. > :48:09.would campaign for alt? I would campaign for a different sort of
:48:09. > :48:15.Euro. There is no point going on about growth. I would break the
:48:15. > :48:20.single market currency. The Germans will not pay out. The only way that
:48:20. > :48:23.serving European countries can grow is to get back their own powers of
:48:23. > :48:29.self government and price themselves back into the market.
:48:29. > :48:35.They are growing as quickly as us. The economy is collapsing. Germany
:48:35. > :48:39.and France are doing better than us. It is not surprising Germany are
:48:39. > :48:44.doing better. It is wrong to say that if they were not independent
:48:44. > :48:52.they would survive better. Let's take a spin through the other
:48:52. > :48:57.stories making the headlines this week.
:48:58. > :49:01.There is a new man at the top of Somerset County Council, the
:49:01. > :49:06.Conservative John Osmond became leader this week. He faces tough
:49:06. > :49:10.decisions over cuts, but says he has a different style of leadership
:49:10. > :49:15.to his predecessor. Allowed to go out, consult and listen to all the
:49:15. > :49:20.people they make decisions. Caroline Spelman visited Highbridge
:49:20. > :49:25.in Somerset to announce new money for businesses. 10 companies will
:49:25. > :49:29.get new premises and super-fast broadband. It has been talked about
:49:29. > :49:35.for years, but this week the Prime Minister pledged his support to the
:49:35. > :49:39.building of the Severn barrage. has many advantages. There is a
:49:39. > :49:44.huge amount of renewable energy that can be delivered through a
:49:44. > :49:49.barrage. A rainbow coalition, Labour, Lib Dems and greens is to
:49:49. > :49:56.run the council in Stroud. It follows local elections two weeks
:49:56. > :50:01.ago when the Conservatives lost the seat making it a hung council.
:50:01. > :50:06.Phew, that was the last week. Let's pick up from one of those stories.
:50:06. > :50:12.What is going on in Stroud with the rainbow coalition. We are not
:50:12. > :50:18.called a rainbow coalition, we have been in no overall control before.
:50:18. > :50:24.We will do it again. We will see where the Conservatives want to
:50:24. > :50:29.come from. At the moment we have a left to centre arrangement which we
:50:29. > :50:33.call a co-operative Alliance. do you think about this coalition?
:50:33. > :50:39.I am not too brilliant about coalitions. You need them in a
:50:39. > :50:45.crisis, but in the longer term they do not work. I wasn't allowed rider
:50:45. > :50:49.in my own party, David slightly on a limb about Europe. So Labour and
:50:49. > :50:54.Conservative parties within themselves are coalitions. If you
:50:54. > :50:58.bung them altogether, it does not work. Clear dividing lines on
:50:58. > :51:03.needed which is why we are not a coalition in Stroud. I don't think
:51:03. > :51:08.the present coalition will go the distance. I do, for the wrong
:51:08. > :51:13.reasons. I just think the strains and stresses are too great. The
:51:13. > :51:16.Liberal Democrats are crazy about Europe. They want to go into the
:51:16. > :51:21.single currency our cells, thank God they did not have that
:51:21. > :51:27.opportunity. He have a total difference of opinion on the