:01:28. > :01:32.Welcome to the Sunday politics. In the West, please help me to dive.
:01:32. > :01:42.That's that we from Tony Nicklen son, paralysed after a stroke. He's
:01:42. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :35:07.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2005 seconds
:35:08. > :35:12.Welcome to the Sunday politics in the West. Coming up, one man's
:35:12. > :35:17.fight to die. Tony Nicklinson was left paralysed after a massive
:35:17. > :35:22.stock. He can't move any of his body and he cannot speak but his
:35:22. > :35:28.mind is unaffected. He has gone to the High Court to ask for a man --
:35:28. > :35:33.the rate for someone to kill him. We're joined this week in the
:35:33. > :35:43.studio by the Conservative MP John Penrose. He is the Minister in
:35:43. > :35:44.
:35:44. > :35:49.charge of tourism and a big fan of staycations. We're also joined by
:35:49. > :35:54.the shadow minister in the Foreign Office. This week, Michael Gove and
:35:54. > :36:04.making rather a fury with talk of abolishing the GCSEs. Where do you
:36:04. > :36:10.
:36:10. > :36:13.stand on that? -- furore. We want to ensure that everyone is leaving
:36:13. > :36:20.school with some qualifications and that that solid quality is still
:36:20. > :36:25.there. What Michael Gold is worried about is that over time, things
:36:25. > :36:30.could get worse. Pupils can only take the exam in front of them at
:36:30. > :36:40.the time but you have to make sure you maintain standards over time.
:36:40. > :36:43.
:36:43. > :36:50.Back to the 1950s? I was one of the last of people to take all levels.
:36:50. > :36:54.-- O levels. The schools then were very segregated and making that
:36:54. > :36:59.decision about how much a child can achieve at an early age is totally
:36:59. > :37:05.wrong. I think there should be just one example stop it is also wrong
:37:05. > :37:14.to Marline the pupils taking GCSEs now. Standards have improved and
:37:14. > :37:19.pupils are better than in my day. Now tour top story. The Wiltshire
:37:19. > :37:22.man has taken his fight to have a doctor lawfully tell him to the
:37:22. > :37:27.High Court. Tony Nicklinson is paralysed from the neck down after
:37:27. > :37:32.a stroke. His mind is unaffected but he cannot move and he is unable
:37:32. > :37:36.to take his own life as he wishes to do without the help of a doctor.
:37:36. > :37:46.The case raises huge ethical and social issues which will spark a
:37:46. > :37:46.
:37:46. > :37:52.huge debate in the weeks to come. Like most people, I did not give
:37:52. > :37:57.suicide are thought. It certainly is true that you do not know what
:37:58. > :38:03.you had an tell you no longer have it. He was the life and soul of the
:38:03. > :38:08.party take. He was a rugby player and a real alpha male. He went
:38:08. > :38:12.skydiving and did all sorts of beat -- crazy things. A a time more come
:38:12. > :38:17.when he says enough is enough at his only option is Switzerland
:38:17. > :38:23.which he might consider eventually. That is if our legal case does not
:38:23. > :38:29.panic. The alternative is starvation, a nasty way to go. With
:38:29. > :38:34.a I be able to do it? I do not know until the time comes. It is what he
:38:34. > :38:41.wants. If you love someone, you will do anything to help them. What
:38:41. > :38:45.more can I do? There is nothing I can do. I do not think people can
:38:45. > :38:53.realise what a novel thing it is to see the person you love and there
:38:53. > :38:57.and you cannot believe their pain. It is wrong that I should be
:38:57. > :39:02.discriminated against because I am disabled so that I cannot take my
:39:02. > :39:07.own life. The decision on how and where to end one's life as a basic
:39:07. > :39:15.human right. We're joined by Tony Nicklinson's daughter. Thank you
:39:15. > :39:22.for joining us. You said it is pure torture for your dad. What is it
:39:22. > :39:27.like for you and your family? horrible to see him like that. He
:39:27. > :39:32.was allowed an outgoing person before, who loved his life, and he
:39:32. > :39:36.is now effectively trapped in a dead body. It is tough for us to
:39:36. > :39:43.see him in such anguish day in and day out and to face another 30
:39:43. > :39:48.years of that. It makes me sick to my stomach. Essentially, what
:39:48. > :39:58.you're asking for a somebody to tell your dad. If anyone were to
:39:58. > :40:00.
:40:00. > :40:04.help him die now, they could face a murder charge. -- kill your dad. We
:40:04. > :40:08.are looking for a doctor to have the legal right to end someone's
:40:08. > :40:16.life. You're asking for what would amount to a massive change in the
:40:16. > :40:21.law. We want a system to be put in place and the very heavily
:40:21. > :40:26.regulated, a very stringent system put in place, whereby he would have
:40:26. > :40:29.to be unsound mind. You would have to request it, to protect the
:40:29. > :40:32.vulnerable. You would have to go through court systems and
:40:32. > :40:36.psychiatric testing and it would only be available to people who
:40:36. > :40:41.cannot kill themselves. Only a very small minority would be in that
:40:41. > :40:45.situation. None of us can put ourselves in that situation but is
:40:45. > :40:52.it something the Government is putting its head in the sand about
:40:52. > :40:57.because it cannot come up with a viable solution? This is really
:40:57. > :41:03.hard because it is a heartbreaking case. While everybody's heart goes
:41:03. > :41:07.out in this case, the danger is a different kind of case somewhere in
:41:07. > :41:12.future way up if you get the legal changes wrong, you could end up
:41:12. > :41:16.with all sorts of dangerous precedents being set. You have to
:41:16. > :41:21.try really carefully, and I am not saying you should not try and we
:41:21. > :41:26.have a parliamentary debate on this, but it is difficult stuff to get
:41:26. > :41:31.right. He says he is discriminated against. Should he have the right
:41:31. > :41:38.to die? What more fundamental right could there be than the right to be
:41:38. > :41:45.able to have a say in that sort of matter. I 100% support him and his
:41:45. > :41:50.family. How far should that goal? Should adopt a repeat in a position
:41:50. > :42:00.where he can legally kill somebody? Their need to be the safeguards we
:42:00. > :42:02.
:42:02. > :42:07.have spoken about. -- they're. Opponents some up stories where
:42:07. > :42:12.they make doctor seemed almost like Harold Shipman that there helping
:42:12. > :42:15.people shuffle off this mortal coil. That is not the scenario at all.
:42:15. > :42:20.Courts will be involved, psychiatrists will be involved,
:42:20. > :42:25.other people will be involved. I have had pumped -- family members
:42:25. > :42:28.with long and slow deaths and we know that sometimes doctors
:42:28. > :42:37.increase the morphine doses to ease their pain and that brings forward
:42:37. > :42:40.their death. That is the humane thing to do. You talk about
:42:41. > :42:44.parliamentary debates on this. There something like 3000
:42:45. > :42:47.euthanasia cases in this country that have gone unreported.
:42:47. > :42:54.Government after government speak about this but we never get any
:42:54. > :42:59.further? That is what is so difficult. There is a degree of
:42:59. > :43:04.consensus around this but if you take it more broadly across society,
:43:04. > :43:11.there are huge objections and people with strong moral objections,
:43:11. > :43:15.and whether we disagree with them or not, we have to respect them.
:43:15. > :43:22.There are regular churchgoers who feel strongly that this is wrong. I
:43:22. > :43:30.would hope that everyone has huge sympathy with this. Is it a matter
:43:30. > :43:32.of Loch awe of religion or of ethics? There does tend to be our
:43:32. > :43:37.faith lobby in Parliament and they have the right to their religious
:43:37. > :43:43.beliefs but when it interferes with people's fundamental human rights,
:43:43. > :43:47.there is an imbalance. There is an imbalance with policy being
:43:47. > :43:53.dictated to some extent by people from certain sections and it is
:43:53. > :43:56.important we listen to people like Tony Nicklinson's family. You live
:43:56. > :44:02.with us the very day and this is one of the biggest ethical dilemmas
:44:02. > :44:05.anyone could have but it is you're father and your family? For a lot
:44:06. > :44:10.of people, they see it on the newspaper or on television but this
:44:10. > :44:17.is my dad and someone that I love and have to see him go through hell
:44:17. > :44:21.every day. Although we have to look get used across society as a whole,
:44:21. > :44:27.we're talking about a case here that should be judged on its own,
:44:27. > :44:31.on its own merits. This only affects a very small on specific
:44:31. > :44:36.part of society, and that is my dad, so that means more to me than
:44:36. > :44:44.anything. We need to talk about this and we need that to happen.
:44:44. > :44:48.Thank you for coming in. �100 million a year, tens of
:44:48. > :44:52.thousands of cows slaughtered. Everyone agrees something must be
:44:53. > :44:58.done to tackle bovine tuberculosis. The government plans to start
:44:58. > :45:03.culling badgers across the West Country. The High Court has told
:45:03. > :45:10.them the call must be stopped because the signs does not stack up.
:45:10. > :45:14.-- cull. This lot are of cattle affected by
:45:14. > :45:19.bovine tuberculosis is put it -- becoming more common particularly
:45:19. > :45:25.in the West Country. The farm is now under strict controls. This
:45:25. > :45:33.farmer has been given the all-clear after several like bricks. As an
:45:33. > :45:38.organic farmer he cares for Nature but believes badgers must be culled.
:45:38. > :45:44.There are things we can do in terms of management of the farm but
:45:44. > :45:52.disease coming on -- coming in that we do not have any control over his
:45:52. > :45:57.frustrating. After a ten-year scientific trial, it was found that
:45:57. > :46:05.Carling was not worth it. The Coalition proposed a large culls
:46:05. > :46:14.paid for by farmers to reduce bovine tuberculosis by up to 16%.
:46:14. > :46:20.The badger caught -- the badger cull is going to the High Court.
:46:20. > :46:27.Many groups up mounting strong legal challenges. Here in Wales, we
:46:27. > :46:34.know the government called off its call. Not a popular decision. --
:46:34. > :46:39.cull. People have said to me time and again that the decision has to
:46:39. > :46:45.be made unscientific evidence. That is what the chief scientific
:46:45. > :46:49.officer did for us. It found that a mass Kohl was not needed in this
:46:49. > :46:55.situation. In Westminster it has become
:46:55. > :47:03.partisan. The scourge has been exacerbated by the fact the
:47:03. > :47:10.Government did nothing about it. This week, this you seemed popular
:47:10. > :47:14.across both benches but some true- blue Tories do not see it that way.
:47:14. > :47:20.This senior Bristol Conservative offer a paper on the subject and
:47:20. > :47:24.concluded that badger culling could be a costly failure. It is the
:47:25. > :47:28.wrong approach and it has been shown by the science. All of the
:47:28. > :47:32.scientists involved in the last trial are opposed to it now and we
:47:33. > :47:40.need a new approach. Badger culling does not work so let's focus on
:47:40. > :47:47.vaccination. All agreed it vaccinating badgers is an important
:47:47. > :47:49.step forward. There is a long way to go yet. The blight of bovine
:47:49. > :47:55.tuberculosis the man's a urgent action.
:47:55. > :48:02.Joining the debate today is the head of the secret world animal
:48:02. > :48:12.rescue centre in Somerset. The cause have luck, badgers, don't
:48:12. > :48:16.
:48:16. > :48:21.they? Should maybe colt? -- they be culled? I take issue with the work,
:48:21. > :48:29.have luck. We have done the experiment which has told us that
:48:29. > :48:34.killing badgers is not the answer. To get a 16% reduction over 10
:48:34. > :48:39.years, I think we should be concentrating on vaccination. There
:48:39. > :48:43.are so many things still to do with cattle and it is a cattle disease.
:48:43. > :48:46.That is the point. It has been a long and highly expensive trial and
:48:46. > :48:51.the badger culling and the conclusion is that makes very
:48:51. > :48:59.little difference. We're putting �50 million a year into this. We
:48:59. > :49:06.have to do something about it. I take issue with saying badger
:49:06. > :49:13.culling does not work. Back in the 1950s, there was any idea from
:49:13. > :49:19.where Port -- bovine tuberculosis was removed for 40 years. The
:49:19. > :49:29.current results are that where the badger culling areas where, one
:49:29. > :49:32.
:49:32. > :49:39.trial did nothing, and one was clear culled. We do not want to see
:49:39. > :49:42.badgers killed and Mrs Ali but we have a situation now with bovine
:49:42. > :49:49.tuberculosis but we are testing cows now once a year and nothing is
:49:49. > :49:52.happening. We will get on to the political side and a second or two,
:49:52. > :49:58.but what you're talking about here is taking the badger culling into
:49:58. > :50:02.your own hands and paying for it? In times gone by, a different
:50:03. > :50:09.organisation supported it but with the pressure and the economy, it is
:50:09. > :50:12.coming down to the producers. We have studied the costs of the
:50:13. > :50:19.methodology of doing it very minutely and have got it down to
:50:19. > :50:23.manageable costs, far less than what the Government were doing.
:50:23. > :50:28.Labour throughout badger culling. They realised with the 10 you test
:50:29. > :50:31.it was simply not working. Why are you in favour of it? If you look at
:50:32. > :50:41.what happened after the ban on badger culling was introduced many
:50:41. > :50:46.years ago, this was back in the 1980s, when the original ban was
:50:46. > :50:51.imposed, bovine tuberculosis started to rise the following year.
:50:51. > :50:58.We had less than 1000 cows being paid Nationwide -- killed it
:50:58. > :51:03.nationwide. That is to say nothing of many badgers dying horrible
:51:03. > :51:07.deaths from tuberculosis. Badger culling is not the only part of the
:51:07. > :51:12.answer and many other things are needed, which we are already doing.
:51:12. > :51:17.But we cannot just pretend there is no problem. Nobody is pretending
:51:17. > :51:23.there is no problem. Even your own grip came up with the idea that
:51:23. > :51:27.badger culling is a costly mistake. At what stage do you say the
:51:27. > :51:37.science tells us badger culling is not a good idea? I would take issue
:51:37. > :51:41.
:51:42. > :51:47.with that grip's conclusions. group's. As we are doing it at the
:51:47. > :51:53.moment, tuberculosis cannot be eradicated. Just carrying on as we
:51:53. > :52:00.are is not working. This will help. What is the answer? Vaccination is
:52:00. > :52:09.highly expensive? It is expensive but it is effective. Badger culling
:52:09. > :52:12.is expensive and ineffective. Reducing cattle to cattle
:52:12. > :52:19.transmission, introducing P movement testing as well as post
:52:19. > :52:25.movement testing. And we still doing nothing as John Penrose is
:52:25. > :52:28.suggesting? There have been very effective vaccination programmes
:52:28. > :52:37.and the need to be rolled out because they are a long-term
:52:38. > :52:44.solution. Without getting too technical, the evidence is that the
:52:44. > :52:52.consequences of badger culling can to help spread the disease.
:52:52. > :52:56.vaccination is only -- the testing is only 60% accurate. We have less
:52:56. > :53:01.farms that are working as dairy farms now but the number of cattle
:53:01. > :53:05.and the dairy industry remains the same.
:53:05. > :53:11.I have to take issue with you. I have been testing my cows for the
:53:11. > :53:15.last 10 years on a 60 day basis. To say that the test is ineffective,
:53:15. > :53:19.when it is carried out five times a year, you get a pretty good measure
:53:19. > :53:24.of what is going on. What we have to do is get on top of this disease.
:53:24. > :53:34.We will have to leave it there. Time now for a look at some of the
:53:34. > :53:38.other political stories making the headlines and a 62nd round up.
:53:38. > :53:43.The legal case against nine former directors of the Christmas hamper
:53:43. > :53:47.business their pack has collapsed. The company folded six years ago.
:53:47. > :53:51.The Business Secretary Vince Cable says he is deeply disappointed.
:53:51. > :53:55.Conservative councillors in Bath and Somerset have failed in their
:53:55. > :54:00.attempt to stop a consultation about plans for traveller sets in
:54:00. > :54:05.the district. Local people against the proposals protesters outside
:54:05. > :54:13.the Guildhall and Bath will stop a week of elections as the political
:54:13. > :54:18.parties ramp up their campaigns towards the November elections.
:54:18. > :54:25.Labour chose Bob Ashford who stood for the party the foreign
:54:25. > :54:35.parliamentary elections. I am not satisfied with mediocrity. I do not
:54:35. > :54:35.
:54:35. > :54:43.want us to underperform any more work and to be all that we can be.