:01:29. > :01:34.In the West: Should you be allowed to keep a dog
:01:34. > :01:38.in a council flat? A local authority has changed the rules,
:01:38. > :01:48.saying it is a human right to keep a pet. But now other tenants are
:01:48. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :29:49.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1681 seconds
:29:49. > :29:54.Coming up in the West this week: They are said to be man's best
:29:54. > :29:57.friend. But not all council tenants in this block of flats are happy
:29:57. > :30:03.with their neighbours keeping dogs. They want the council to ban them.
:30:03. > :30:06.But will Europe have the final say? Joining us today is the cat-loving
:30:06. > :30:16.Lib Dem from Bath Don Foster. And the Labour Councillor from Taunton
:30:16. > :30:17.
:30:17. > :30:22.Libby Lisgo. I want to talk about the banking scandal first. Is there
:30:22. > :30:30.an argument to say the find that Barclays had should be used to
:30:30. > :30:37.build a big prison that people at the top can be properly punished?
:30:37. > :30:43.do not think so. Not directly. I, along with a lot of people, feel
:30:43. > :30:49.that the situation is an obscenity. The banking system has clearly got
:30:49. > :30:54.completely out of hand. We need a completely independent, arm's
:30:54. > :31:00.length inquiry to look at who has done what so that people who have
:31:00. > :31:04.done the worst things can be punished. People are saying it is
:31:04. > :31:09.one rule for the rich and another for the poor. You fiddle your
:31:09. > :31:14.benefits and they come down on you like a ton of bricks, but you do
:31:14. > :31:19.something on a massive scale and you are untouchable. It was a
:31:19. > :31:29.massive fine. �300 million, which is peanuts to a bank like barkers.
:31:29. > :31:35.It was only �60 million of the find in the UK -- Barclays. The rest as
:31:35. > :31:42.in the USA. Some have said for a long time that at the moment the
:31:42. > :31:47.banks have two different parts, high-street lending and the risky
:31:47. > :31:57.casino banking. And if they get into difficulty with that, we end
:31:57. > :31:58.
:31:58. > :32:02.up bailing them out. None of us is getting any younger.
:32:02. > :32:06.But who is going to pay for our care when we get older? At the
:32:06. > :32:09.moment, if you have savings of more than �23,000, you have to pay for
:32:09. > :32:19.yourself. But it is proposed that limit should go up to �100,000. But
:32:19. > :32:20.
:32:20. > :32:23.is that affordable? At a senior citizens' social club on the east
:32:23. > :32:30.side of Bristol, it is raffle time. Most who attend still live
:32:30. > :32:34.independently. But they know one day they'll need help. I could live
:32:34. > :32:44.until I am 100 and I do not know who will -- what will happen.
:32:44. > :32:47.
:32:47. > :32:52.the moment I manage on my own. will have to sell powerhouses. --
:32:52. > :32:57.RN houses. The Emersons Green club is run by volunteers. But charities
:32:57. > :33:02.are small players in the country's care system. Everyone agrees that
:33:02. > :33:08.the amount must go up massively, not just because people live longer
:33:08. > :33:13.but also that an official report concluded the state should pay a
:33:13. > :33:16.greater share. The problem is how to afford it. At her home in
:33:16. > :33:19.Melksham, Patricia Simpson-Bysman is among one and a half million
:33:19. > :33:27.adults who need help. Carers visit four times a day, paid for by her
:33:27. > :33:33.and Wiltshire council. They have to realise that while we may be living
:33:33. > :33:37.longer, we have paid, financially, and many of us in emotions, to fund
:33:37. > :33:40.the country's welfare. The funding of care was investigated by
:33:40. > :33:47.economist Andrew Dilnot. All main parties welcomed his commission's
:33:47. > :33:50.conclusions. We need to the States to provide certainty and
:33:50. > :33:54.reassurance so that people know the worst case is something they can
:33:54. > :34:02.manage. At present in England, people must pay for all their care
:34:02. > :34:06.if they have more than �23,250 savings. It still leaves the
:34:06. > :34:10.Government paying 12 billion. Andrew Dilnot suggested raising the
:34:10. > :34:16.threshold and putting a cap on individual contributions. The cost
:34:16. > :34:20.to the Government, �1.7 billion extra. The commission recognised
:34:20. > :34:24.implementing the reforms would have significant cost that the
:34:24. > :34:26.Government will need to consider against other priorities. It has
:34:26. > :34:33.proved very difficult. The government's white paper on social
:34:33. > :34:38.care is months overdue, after a rough passage in the Treasury.
:34:38. > :34:43.not think they are holding it up. I think there are strong discussions
:34:43. > :34:47.at the heart of government. Everybody realises this is an issue
:34:47. > :34:50.that for too long politicians have not have to worry about the cars if
:34:50. > :34:54.you push it into the long grass because you don't need to worry
:34:54. > :34:59.about election time. The time has come when we can no longer avoid
:34:59. > :35:04.delay. He has thought about it and come up with proposals which he
:35:04. > :35:09.reckons could save taxpayers �1 billion a year. Elsewhere in Europe,
:35:09. > :35:13.they have said if you want to look after an Old City -- elderly
:35:13. > :35:17.relative we can give you the cash directly at two-thirds the cost. In
:35:17. > :35:22.Germany and the Netherlands, people have taken cash and it gives them
:35:22. > :35:26.greater freedom to choose where to spend that money. It brings down
:35:26. > :35:29.costs. Back in his constituency, lunch is being served. These senior
:35:29. > :35:36.citizens were not sure about simply relying on family members. They
:35:36. > :35:41.know care ultimately needs cash. think any expenditure like that
:35:41. > :35:47.should come out of income tax. If it is not high enough to pay for it,
:35:47. > :35:53.it should be increased. Whoever is in Parliament, they are not miracle
:35:54. > :35:59.workers. They only have so much money. We grumble about them, but I
:35:59. > :36:03.would not like to be in their shoes. They voice of reason. We can
:36:03. > :36:10.discuss those points. People feel they have paid national insurance.
:36:10. > :36:19.Why should they pay more? I am not sure that the question is as simple
:36:19. > :36:24.as that. If people are fairly well off, they can make choices about
:36:24. > :36:31.care, about how they live in older age. It is the people who have not
:36:31. > :36:35.got so much money that really get stuck sometimes with some of our
:36:36. > :36:44.least well-funded least good services. If people cannot afford
:36:44. > :36:52.to pay, in my view,... The state has to be there as the last stop
:36:52. > :36:59.provider. That is the important thing. What is really important in
:36:59. > :37:06.paying for care, it is massively important. It ought not to become a
:37:06. > :37:12.political football. It needs to be a cross party approach. That's why
:37:12. > :37:17.Ed Miliband initiated cross-party talks. It is �1,000 a week to put
:37:17. > :37:25.them in a care home, what about giving the relative �600 and it
:37:25. > :37:29.might give them an incentive to give -- to do the job. 5 million
:37:29. > :37:31.people in this country care for older people and for some of them
:37:32. > :37:40.it is a full-time job and the Government has provided more
:37:40. > :37:48.support for them. The ultimate issue as you heard Inverkip. The
:37:48. > :37:57.Andrew Dilnot report says we have to put a cap -- in the kip. He
:37:57. > :38:04.suggested an amount and thereafter the state picks up the rest. Let me
:38:04. > :38:08.suggest a way of funding it. The richer pensioners, maybe they could
:38:08. > :38:14.give up some of the things they currently get such as the winter
:38:15. > :38:18.fuel allowance. If you are poor, it is provided anyway. If you are rich,
:38:18. > :38:26.looking after your own care is peanuts anyway, it is the people in
:38:26. > :38:31.the middle. That is why there should be a limit. Andrew Dilnot
:38:31. > :38:36.suggests �35,000 and thereafter the state picks it up. That means
:38:36. > :38:41.everybody can be assured they will get proper care. That would stop
:38:41. > :38:47.people losing their houses which is distressing. And they do not
:38:47. > :38:51.actually use their houses the way it works, but they are required to
:38:51. > :38:59.use the value of their property to pay for care. That is a
:38:59. > :39:06.misconception. In Scotland, you get it for nothing. You only get the
:39:06. > :39:11.personal care free in Scotland. is a burden on the young, younger
:39:11. > :39:16.taxpayers. Paying for our generation as we get older. That is
:39:16. > :39:23.why I suggest one way would be to look at other things not on general
:39:23. > :39:26.taxation but which can -- tax pays for, such as the bonus you get for
:39:26. > :39:36.winter fuel allowance, which I do not think wealthier pensioners
:39:36. > :39:37.
:39:37. > :39:40.should get. It would be a way of the people who benefit funding it.
:39:40. > :39:43.Is it your human right to own a dog? Councillors in Bristol have
:39:43. > :39:47.decided it is and changed the rules to allow tenants in council flats
:39:47. > :39:53.to keep pets. But what about the rights of the other residents who
:39:53. > :40:02.do not want to want to hear the hounds next door? Maybe it's their
:40:03. > :40:05.rough luck. Man's best friend is not proving
:40:05. > :40:10.quite so popular here. Two years ago, Bristol City Council relaxed
:40:10. > :40:14.the rules to allow any tenant to keep pets in their council flats.
:40:14. > :40:21.It has prompted a surge in the number of dogs and a raft of
:40:21. > :40:28.complaints. People go out to work all the time. They do not take
:40:28. > :40:33.their animals out enough. But they bark, basically, everything.
:40:33. > :40:39.will have an owner who is not responsible to pick up dirt. The
:40:39. > :40:45.other day we had it in the doorway. Just inside the door, dog muck.
:40:45. > :40:52.Why? Can may not bend down and pick it up? Their concern is shared by
:40:52. > :40:58.the RSPCA. We do not think it is right that animals are kept in
:40:58. > :41:03.high-rise flats. The reasons are hygiene issues, exercise, the dog
:41:03. > :41:08.needs to go out and stretch its legs. Not everybody is a fan of
:41:08. > :41:13.animals and does not want the animal in a communal area. In other
:41:13. > :41:17.parts of the country, housing authorities have a blanket ban in
:41:17. > :41:24.high rise flats, but in Bristol the council says such a ban is
:41:24. > :41:28.difficult to end force and not fair. And an ombudsman has found it could
:41:28. > :41:31.contravene the European Convention on Human Rights. That allows the
:41:31. > :41:39.right to enjoy possessions and the right to a family life. It is that
:41:39. > :41:44.mention of Europe that has upset the Tories. In common with lots of
:41:44. > :41:51.councils and large organisations, they use these European d'etats to
:41:51. > :41:57.justify steps they wished to take. -- rulings. I think it is one of
:41:57. > :42:01.the reasons I feel that Europe is a difficulty for us all. Is this a
:42:01. > :42:06.case of Brussels meddling in Bristol affairs? Not so say the
:42:06. > :42:13.ruling Lib-Dems. We have a strategy in the city which is your home is
:42:13. > :42:21.your springboard for life. People of every 10 year has arrived to use
:42:21. > :42:25.their home. -- tenancy. It is their home. Everyone needs to be
:42:25. > :42:30.reasonable. By and large, most people are reasonable. Where that
:42:31. > :42:37.goes wrong, we have to do something about it. The council says it could
:42:37. > :42:41.be tougher on those with noisy dogs. It is writing to the housing
:42:41. > :42:44.minister for more powers to tackle nuisance neighbours, but for now
:42:44. > :42:48.some neighbours high above Bristol say that Barking and fouling
:42:48. > :42:53.continue to make their lives a misery.
:42:53. > :42:59.We are joined by the Lib Dem responsible for housing in Bristol
:42:59. > :43:07.and the Conservative, Chris windows. You have made a life -- life a
:43:07. > :43:12.misery for tenants? We have had a policy for a long time for not
:43:12. > :43:16.having pets in flats, but in reality that has been allowed to
:43:16. > :43:22.lapse for a long time for the good reason that you cannot enforce it.
:43:22. > :43:28.You can have a dog on the 15th floor? You cannot enforce demanding
:43:28. > :43:33.people not to have pets. Why is it not a enforceable? We only have
:43:34. > :43:41.under the Housing Act 1 real final redress, which is eviction. And
:43:41. > :43:48.there is nothing between. They should be something between. People
:43:48. > :43:55.love their animals. I am sure they do. I had large dogs as pets until
:43:55. > :44:03.a while ago. I loved my animals. If I lived in a high-rise, there is no
:44:04. > :44:08.way I would have a dog as a pet. I understand that some elderly people
:44:08. > :44:16.on their own would like a pet as company. Why would you object
:44:16. > :44:24.about? I would not. Is there any way you can say you could have a
:44:24. > :44:31.small dog, but not a pit bull? is a big dot macro? It is difficult.
:44:31. > :44:37.We have rules about -- dog. We do have rules about the type of animal
:44:37. > :44:43.that can be kept and bread, it cannot be a dangerous breed or a
:44:43. > :44:52.dog that causes a major problem. I do not how to distinguish between a
:44:52. > :45:00.small dog and a larger one. Somebody's nice dog might be
:45:00. > :45:07.another person's problem. How the politicians do with his? It is
:45:07. > :45:12.difficult. I do not recognise -- I do not envy the job he has to do.
:45:12. > :45:16.Some people do need an animal for company, but the ultimate issue is
:45:16. > :45:22.whether the council can enforce rules it has to ensure noise and
:45:22. > :45:29.nuisance that can be caused by irresponsible overs -- owners can
:45:29. > :45:35.be dealt with. I live in a flat. I know about this. It is not the
:45:35. > :45:40.right environment for animals. you live in a private flat, they
:45:40. > :45:48.have very strict rules, no barbecues, no animals, no ball
:45:48. > :45:54.games, and all that. Why should the council not take the same rules?
:45:54. > :45:57.There is a difference in terms of the law. It is difficult to enforce
:45:57. > :46:04.much of the conditions of the tenancies under the law as it
:46:04. > :46:11.stands. Why has Bristol gone out on a limb on this? They are banned in
:46:11. > :46:16.other parts of the country? So I understand. I do not know why the
:46:16. > :46:20.council has taken this view. I cannot understand it. I can
:46:20. > :46:25.understand better the elderly ladies and men who come to me,
:46:25. > :46:31.absolutely distraught, or I go to them and see them in their flats,
:46:31. > :46:35.because they are kept awake through the night by dogs barking. Some of
:46:35. > :46:40.them have been there for years in those flats and they are frightened
:46:40. > :46:48.to go out of their front door. They are frightened to identify
:46:48. > :46:55.themselves. That is pretty bad? That is pretty bad. And the fact is
:46:55. > :46:59.we get very few complaints. Perhaps people do not dare? We get fewer
:46:59. > :47:03.complaints. Should we ban stereo systems because people might make a
:47:04. > :47:13.noise? A lot of people might appreciate that! Thank you for
:47:14. > :47:16.
:47:16. > :47:19.coming in. It's time now to see some of the other stories making
:47:19. > :47:22.the headlines this week in just 60 seconds. Figures out this week show
:47:22. > :47:25.nearly 3,000 families in the West face having their homes repossessed.
:47:26. > :47:28.This is Michael Conway, his home is about to be taken away. He says
:47:29. > :47:32.there's not enough help for people like him. A quarter of working
:47:32. > :47:35.people in the Forest of Dean are on the brink of poverty. The Citizens
:47:35. > :47:39.advice bureau say over 60% of people looking for debt advice are
:47:39. > :47:42.in work and owe an average of �15,000.
:47:42. > :47:49.Bristol City Council is planning to borrow �70 million to fund major
:47:49. > :47:54.changes to its offices. It is also considering turning the vacated
:47:54. > :47:57.buildings into schools, nurseries and housing.
:47:57. > :48:01.There have been celebrations in Brussels after the Lib Dem MEP Sir
:48:01. > :48:07.Graham Watson won his battle to have prunes branded as a laxative.
:48:07. > :48:10.He challenged an EU commissioner to a prune eat-off last December. Now
:48:10. > :48:20.in a change of heart, the EU says prunes do help bowel functions,
:48:20. > :48:22.
:48:22. > :48:26.after all. I am sure they do. We can talk
:48:26. > :48:30.about one of those stories, repossession numbers. Not as high
:48:31. > :48:35.as the last recession, but still serious if you are in that
:48:35. > :48:40.situation. Very serious and dreadful for people, especially
:48:40. > :48:46.families, where they are trying to get through. It is a reflection of
:48:46. > :48:51.the economic situation. Perhaps the banks are being more lenient than
:48:51. > :48:54.last time? I think they are, but they could do more to develop a
:48:54. > :48:58.shared ownership scheme whereby they take back half ownership of
:48:58. > :49:02.that house and allow the people to continue to live there. There are
:49:02. > :49:06.ways forward and we have to find more effective ways to help people
:49:06. > :49:11.in those circumstances. That's all we've got time for today.
:49:11. > :49:15.Thank you to Don and Libby for joining us. We're off air next week
:49:15. > :49:22.because of the Wimbledon final. But we will be back with you on Sunday