:01:20. > :01:27.Sunday Politics In The West... She was raped by a convicted murderer
:01:27. > :01:37.out on parole. Now he could be released again. Why does a life
:01:37. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :37:09.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2132 seconds
:37:09. > :37:13.On Sunday Politics in the West this week, we talked to a week victim
:37:13. > :37:19.that says the Government is putting the rights of criminals above that
:37:19. > :37:23.of victims. Helen Stockford was held at knifepoint in her home by a
:37:23. > :37:27.man that had been convicted of murder. She wants him to get a life
:37:27. > :37:34.sentence but her appeal has been turned down by the Government. We
:37:34. > :37:38.talked in her later. First, our guests this morning. Charlotte
:37:38. > :37:43.Leslie, Conservative MP for Bristol and for Labour, Roger Berry, a
:37:43. > :37:49.former MP and local councillor. The new mayor of Bristol went to meet
:37:49. > :37:52.the bigwigs in London. But he was not shown the red carpet. Far from
:37:53. > :37:58.meeting the Prime Minister, he was left with ministers that few people
:37:58. > :38:02.had ever heard of. The Government had signalled that the mayor would
:38:02. > :38:10.have had the same status as a Cabinet Minister. Is this a sign of
:38:10. > :38:15.things to come, Charlotte? It has been quite a busy week. I think
:38:15. > :38:19.George had settled in and it was maybe a busy week with Lord
:38:19. > :38:23.Leveson's report going on. But I am delighted we have got a Mayer and I
:38:23. > :38:29.am delighted it is George and I hope we can put politics aside and
:38:29. > :38:33.get behind him. You are a veteran of local politics. Do you think
:38:33. > :38:39.George Ferguson has got the status of a Secretary of State or is that
:38:39. > :38:43.a fantasy? I think that is a fantasy but time will tell. We do
:38:43. > :38:48.not know what George can deliver and what powers he will have and
:38:48. > :38:55.what his budget will be. We have got substantial cuts that might be
:38:55. > :39:00.coming forward. It is early to judge. But everybody of good will,
:39:00. > :39:04.however they voted in the election or if they did not vote, they want
:39:04. > :39:10.the best for Bristol. We have to pull together in order to put
:39:10. > :39:15.Bristol on the map. We can talk about the Labour Party attitude
:39:15. > :39:20.later. It is 70 years since the foundations were laid for the
:39:20. > :39:25.welfare system. It is undergoing its biggest ever change. Next year,
:39:25. > :39:30.a large array of benefits will be in rolled into an all accompanying
:39:30. > :39:33.benefit, the Universal credit. Also replaced, the Disability Living
:39:33. > :39:41.Allowance. These changes are causing alarm among many disabled
:39:41. > :39:45.people. They protested in Bristol and across the land but it did not
:39:45. > :39:50.stop the Government welfare reforms passing into legislation. There is
:39:50. > :39:56.great worry about what is ahead. have received care from social
:39:56. > :40:02.services. I am permanently anxious that might care will be slashed.
:40:02. > :40:07.Why are they making it harder to claim the money? It is main -- mean
:40:07. > :40:12.and stealing from disabled people. They will find out what it means in
:40:12. > :40:17.months. The changes start next April when the Disability Living
:40:17. > :40:23.Allowance is replaced by a personal independence payment. From October,
:40:23. > :40:27.are more changes. Child tax benefit, housing benefit, support allowance,
:40:27. > :40:32.income support and working tax credit will all be replaced by the
:40:32. > :40:37.Universal Credit, which will be phased in in four years. The prison
:40:37. > :40:42.benefits system costs �200 billion. The aim of the new scheme is to
:40:42. > :40:47.encourage more people into jobs. That will ultimately it is hoped
:40:47. > :40:51.bring down the welfare Bill. This man has got epilepsy and Asperger's
:40:51. > :40:56.syndrome. A self-employed broadcaster and a web designer, he
:40:56. > :41:04.gets some benefits. He said most like him want to work but
:41:04. > :41:07.politicians instead highlight the few. It makes me really angry about
:41:07. > :41:12.what the Government says and the words they have used, such as
:41:12. > :41:16.scroungers. They are saying everybody must work. They are not
:41:16. > :41:21.considering people that cannot work because of disability. That
:41:21. > :41:27.frustrates me. He knows his disability is not as obvious as
:41:27. > :41:33.many. But benefits are supposed to overcome problems, like not being
:41:33. > :41:39.able to drive. I must use public transport to travel around the UK.
:41:39. > :41:44.I am having a bit of a subsidy allowing me to get to work. He does
:41:44. > :41:47.not know what help he will get under the new system. Very few do.
:41:47. > :41:55.But there is a concern that many that need help will be left behind
:41:55. > :42:01.Roger, you have campaigned for disability rights for many years.
:42:01. > :42:05.Are disabled people write to be worried they could lose benefits?
:42:05. > :42:08.The disability allowance is one benefit mentioned. The Government
:42:08. > :42:14.after the election plans to cut that by 20 %. We will have
:42:14. > :42:18.substantial cuts. We have got cuts for people on employment support
:42:19. > :42:24.allowance and incapacity benefit. And the number of people entitled
:42:24. > :42:30.to that has been cut back. We have got a suggestion that disabled
:42:30. > :42:34.people are bearing the brunt of the welfare benefit cuts. The numbers
:42:34. > :42:44.claiming are now future. It has gone up by 30% in the past few
:42:44. > :42:50.years. -- are now massive. Do not forget, in 1974, many women were
:42:50. > :42:56.not entitled to claim that benefit. 3.2 million people are claiming
:42:56. > :43:04.benefit. Not on incapacity benefit. We have got other disability
:43:04. > :43:09.benefits. The entitlement has been improved over the years. Under the
:43:09. > :43:14.Conservatives and under the Labour government, it has increased. In
:43:14. > :43:18.civilised society, people for example that are unable to work and
:43:18. > :43:25.require additional support for the costs of going to work, the
:43:25. > :43:29.benefits system has been improved. Charlotte, whatever the causes of
:43:29. > :43:35.this recession that we have been going through, the vulnerable did
:43:35. > :43:39.not cause it. Why is the Government appearing to target them? First, I
:43:39. > :43:46.can see that some people with disabilities are worried and afraid
:43:46. > :43:51.and my heart goes out to them. But the Government is protecting
:43:51. > :43:55.spending of 12.6 bn on disability. The problem is that it has not been
:43:55. > :43:59.targeted properly and vulnerable people that need a benefit have not
:43:59. > :44:05.been getting it. Some people that did not quite need that support
:44:05. > :44:09.have. Much has been overpaid and 190 million has been underpaid and
:44:09. > :44:15.many people should be getting that benefit. They did realise these are
:44:15. > :44:22.needed sorting out in 1997 but they backtracked and in 2011, Liam Burns
:44:22. > :44:27.said the same thing. Some people have said that families could lose
:44:28. > :44:32.�58 per week. We must focus on the people that need it most.
:44:32. > :44:38.Assessments must take place sensitively. It's the other issue
:44:38. > :44:46.raised as well is helping disabled people. That is essential. We have
:44:46. > :44:51.got all sorts of mental health implications. There are many people
:44:51. > :44:55.in work, disabled people, that rely upon allowance to get to work.
:44:55. > :45:01.Disability Living Allowance is not an out-of-work benefit. You cannot
:45:01. > :45:07.say, we will cut that and it will be an incentive to work. It will do
:45:07. > :45:17.the opposite. It's many -- many people in the Paralympics said
:45:17. > :45:25.without that support, they would not have been able to... But we do
:45:25. > :45:32.need to target it better. This is the undeserving poor argument.
:45:32. > :45:36.you accept... The announcement in 2010 was to put �2 billion of
:45:36. > :45:42.disability benefit. That is what has happened since then. We must
:45:42. > :45:47.leave if there. A Bristol mother that was raped by a convicted
:45:47. > :45:55.murderer has had her appeal to keep him in prison for life rejected.
:45:55. > :46:00.Kenneth Shirley was -- he was convicted but released on parole
:46:00. > :46:05.after just 16 years. He went on to rape two more women including Helen
:46:05. > :46:11.Stockford. She said the Government is putting the right bits of
:46:11. > :46:16.offenders be on victims. -- writes. He broke into Helen Stockford's
:46:16. > :46:23.home. He held her prisoner for three and a half hours and raped
:46:23. > :46:28.her. It was absolutely horrendous. The only thing that kept me going,
:46:28. > :46:34.I just kept thinking, Oh my God I have got to get into that a grand
:46:34. > :46:36.and pick my children up. She said she lives in fear. She finds it
:46:37. > :46:43.difficult leaving the House and constantly checks the doors and
:46:43. > :46:49.windows are locked. I feel I have lost everything and the emotional
:46:49. > :46:55.impact has been awful. I cannot come to terms with what he has done.
:46:55. > :46:59.It was in these flats in Cardiff when he was a teenager that he
:46:59. > :47:05.murdered a 67-year-old woman. He was released by the Parole Board
:47:05. > :47:13.after 16 years. He went on to break Helen and another woman in violent
:47:13. > :47:18.attacks. -- rape. He has been given 23 like sentences but the minimum
:47:18. > :47:23.term is 16 years and he could again be released on parole. The judge
:47:23. > :47:29.said he will probably spend the rest of his life behind bars. Helen
:47:29. > :47:32.thinks life should mean life and she has been supported by her MP.
:47:32. > :47:36.Be judged as look at the circumstances and has come to a
:47:36. > :47:41.conclusion that many people would find astonishing. We are talking
:47:41. > :47:46.about a murderer let out on parole and he has been given a second
:47:46. > :47:49.chance and he has not taken advantage and I think a full life
:47:49. > :47:54.sentence is the proper response. She has been campaigning for
:47:54. > :48:02.changes. I have been to everyone. Nobody out there has not been
:48:02. > :48:07.contacted. I am running out of people. I would like David Cameron
:48:07. > :48:14.to acknowledge me now and Chris Grayling. Her latest appeal was to
:48:14. > :48:20.the Attorney General. It was rejected. He said that he did not
:48:20. > :48:26.feel it was unduly lenient. There will be one day when I am going to
:48:26. > :48:32.be notified by my liaison officer to say that he is coming up warm
:48:32. > :48:37.parole. It is your time to write a -- on parole. It is your time to
:48:37. > :48:43.write a statement but I did not think I should have to do that. I
:48:43. > :48:48.want to put this behind me. Outside Bristol Crown Court three years ago,
:48:48. > :48:54.Helen Stockford waved a right to anonymity to campaign for changes
:48:54. > :48:58.to the justice system. We took our concerns to Downing Street and the
:48:58. > :49:01.Ministry for justice. They declined the request for an interview but
:49:01. > :49:11.the request for an interview but they said that the decision to
:49:11. > :49:15.
:49:15. > :49:19.In Bristol this week, the white ribbon was used in campaigning to
:49:19. > :49:24.reduce violence Against Women. Charities are concerned government
:49:24. > :49:30.cuts will leave are the victims without help. They said this story
:49:30. > :49:34.is in danger of being repeated the politicians do not listen. We are
:49:34. > :49:40.seeing cuts all over the country. This woman has been terribly let
:49:40. > :49:43.down. She should have been listened to. If he deserves that many
:49:43. > :49:50.sentences it stands to reason that he should be given a whole life
:49:50. > :49:54.tariff. He needs to sit down with the victim and start listening, the
:49:54. > :49:58.Prime Minister, to help make changes. She helps other victims
:49:58. > :50:02.now to come to terms with their ordeals. She is head in one day she
:50:02. > :50:12.will get the changes she has been campaigning for. If -- she is
:50:12. > :50:17.I am joined by a representative from the Bristol Law Society. And
:50:17. > :50:27.by Helen Stockford. How much has that changed your life? Absolutely
:50:27. > :50:33.everything. I cannot begin to say how it has changed. I think every
:50:33. > :50:40.day, it is like a terrible experience. He has been told that
:50:40. > :50:46.he has got 23 life sentences? altogether. He has been told he has
:50:46. > :50:52.to served 16 years. And then he is up on parole. I but it is not
:50:52. > :50:57.likely he will be allowed out? it is possible. You want somebody
:50:57. > :51:03.to say you have committed 25 -- you have got 25 life sentences and that
:51:03. > :51:10.must be like? I want a whole life term for peace of mind. Do you
:51:10. > :51:15.think the Government has taken you seriously? Not really. You start
:51:15. > :51:20.with the police and you go to probation, role and the Ministry of
:51:20. > :51:24.Justice, the Attorney General. I did not think they are listening.
:51:24. > :51:31.And the European Court might consider if these sentences are
:51:32. > :51:36.lawful anyway. If they did that and said that you cannot give a whole
:51:36. > :51:42.life sentence to people, would that be binding in Britain? In theory,
:51:42. > :51:51.yes. It is the grand chamber in Strasbourg that will have to make
:51:51. > :51:57.this decision. They rejected the argument that it was unlawful in
:51:57. > :52:02.Westminster but it was only rejected by four down to three and
:52:03. > :52:07.it is going to be grand chamber. This is an example where frankly
:52:07. > :52:13.Strasbourg and Europe should not be gerrymandering with the British
:52:13. > :52:23.legal system. Do you accept it is perhaps degrading to not have any
:52:23. > :52:24.
:52:24. > :52:29.hope of ever being released? Well, when you look at this man and his
:52:29. > :52:37.past history, I think it is fair to say that he needs a whole life
:52:37. > :52:40.after. But if we look at some offenders, -- life sentence. But if
:52:40. > :52:47.we look at others, it is difficult to look around the issues because
:52:47. > :52:51.of so many different categories of rape. I think with my story and my
:52:51. > :53:01.experience, I think this is where the justice system is passing me by.
:53:01. > :53:04.18 not think it is strong enough to make changes. -- they do not think.
:53:05. > :53:10.Helen has tried to see the Prime Minister and he is busy, or his day
:53:10. > :53:18.but you would like five minutes. That is all I ask all. Why is she
:53:18. > :53:22.being fobbed off? I think the whole system, the judiciary, agencies and
:53:22. > :53:27.the Government is being hamstrung by a system which in many ways, for
:53:27. > :53:32.good reasons, it cannot fully control. It is hamstrung by a
:53:32. > :53:37.system that all the focus as far as I can tell, is on the attacker, the
:53:37. > :53:41.perpetrator and not on the victim. There are people that can say that
:53:41. > :53:48.they have ticked their boxes and dump it jobs but she has not
:53:48. > :53:58.actually had support -- Dharma their jobs but she has not actually
:53:58. > :53:58.
:53:58. > :54:06.had support. -- accomplished their jobs. Should David Cameron meet
:54:06. > :54:10.Helen? A I know that she needs more to be done. We got a meeting with
:54:10. > :54:14.the Justice Minister and Attorney General. They are being hamstrung
:54:14. > :54:17.by the system. The letter from the Attorney General said that they
:54:17. > :54:23.cannot meet the appeal because it and the system, I did not think we
:54:23. > :54:27.will get anywhere with it. That I think is out of touch and wrong.
:54:27. > :54:31.You go to court and you hear the judge say that he will get a life
:54:31. > :54:37.sentence which he does not mean because it will not be and you must
:54:38. > :54:43.serve a minimum of 20 years. What does that mean? The difficulty is
:54:43. > :54:51.that unless the judge has said that he will have a whole light sentence
:54:51. > :54:57.that does not mean a light sentence, what it means is that, he gives a
:54:57. > :55:02.determinate sentence and that means after heart of the determinate
:55:02. > :55:07.sentence, suppose 20 years, the person would be only eligible to
:55:07. > :55:12.apply for parole. It then goes before the board, normally presided
:55:12. > :55:17.at on by a judge and a psychiatrist... Is it clear that
:55:17. > :55:26.when the judge said that you must serve 20 years, he does not mean
:55:26. > :55:30.that? He is hamstrung unfortunately by the system. He does mean it. But
:55:30. > :55:37.it means the person concerned is eligible for parole. It does not
:55:37. > :55:46.mean they will get it but that he is eligible to what might. Are we
:55:46. > :55:54.being calmed? -- eligible to what life. -- are we being hoodwinked?
:55:54. > :55:59.Many people think a life sentence does mean life. I do think that if
:55:59. > :56:09.a judge says you must do 10 years that people think it will be 10 but
:56:09. > :56:11.
:56:12. > :56:21.you are saying it is alive. When he -- saying it is five. When you say
:56:21. > :56:24.it is 20 years, he can apply after 10. What I would like to say is
:56:24. > :56:33.that it is the Parole Board themselves, I think the system is
:56:33. > :56:42.wrong. This is an example for you. Prior to my attack, he came up on
:56:42. > :56:48.parole in 2007 and basically he got somebody to go on to that bought
:56:48. > :56:58.and that policeman told to the Brit lies which helped his release. --
:56:58. > :57:08.to that Parole Board and old lies which helped his release. -- told
:57:08. > :57:10.
:57:10. > :57:16.lies. He basically them was told that the matter cannot be taken up
:57:16. > :57:24.further because the Parole Board is not under oath. Definite changes
:57:25. > :57:34.are needed. We must stop there. Thank you for coming in. It is time
:57:35. > :57:36.
:57:36. > :57:40.for the 62nd round up. -- 60 seconds or stop --. The leader on
:57:40. > :57:44.the council in Bristol was forced to resign. The party is completely
:57:44. > :57:48.divided on whether to work with the new city Mayer. Councillors from
:57:48. > :57:54.all parties had agreed to join the Cabinet but Labour Party members
:57:54. > :57:59.were overruled by head office. Two West councils have promised to
:57:59. > :58:05.spend �50,000 each to help flooding victims. Money will go to people
:58:05. > :58:11.that have at homes flooded in rain. We are going to houses that have
:58:11. > :58:15.become flooded or almost but it. We are getting back information. That
:58:15. > :58:23.will dig into the system and that will help us decide where to put
:58:23. > :58:27.defences in future. Lord Justice Leveson talk about the injustice of
:58:27. > :58:30.people affected by the press. Christopher Jefferies, the
:58:30. > :58:40.schoolteacher from Bristol said that his name had been tarnished
:58:40. > :58:44.We can pick up on one of these stories and that is the Labour
:58:44. > :58:47.Party decision not to work with the Cabinet in Bristol with the
:58:47. > :58:57.Independent Meyer George Ferguson after her as saying that they would.
:58:57. > :58:58.
:58:58. > :59:02.What is going on? -- First saying. We need to work in the best
:59:02. > :59:06.interests of Bristol as councils always do. If I had been asked to
:59:06. > :59:10.serve in his Cabinet I would want to know the direction in which he
:59:10. > :59:18.is going and we do not yet at any policies or inkling of the
:59:18. > :59:27.budgetary position. You are asking him to take it a lot not knowing
:59:27. > :59:34.the facts. A wish politicians would -- by which politicians would grow
:59:34. > :59:38.up. We should stand up and say that I will work with George Ferguson. I
:59:38. > :59:42.was part of a delegation to get some changes on the public
:59:42. > :59:49.transport system. I could have let MPs out but I did not because you