:00:39. > :00:49.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday politics at the end of a
:00:49. > :00:49.
:00:49. > :01:32.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 43 seconds
:01:32. > :01:37.week when we had an Autumn Here in the West, the housing plan
:01:37. > :01:47.that's back fired. House building targets were handed to local
:01:47. > :01:47.
:01:47. > :37:14.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 43 seconds
:37:14. > :37:17.councils, but we can reveal most of Thank you Andrew. This is the
:37:17. > :37:21.Sunday Politics here in the West. Now it's almost Christmas and there
:37:21. > :37:26.are a lot of people without a decent home. Everyone agrees the
:37:26. > :37:33.answer is to build more houses. The trouble is - where? We can reveal
:37:33. > :37:37.today that a Government used to make thing easier has back fired.
:37:37. > :37:40.First let's meet our guests this morning. They are the Swindon
:37:40. > :37:45.Conservative MP Robert Buckland and for Labour, Amanda Ramsay who is
:37:45. > :37:49.hoping to become the new MP for Bristol south, a seat which is as
:37:49. > :37:56.safe as houses for Labour. You see how I worked in the house being
:37:56. > :38:00.theme there? If you fancied a MoCA choca or a tall skinny flat white
:38:00. > :38:04.Americano, where would you go? Are you boycotting Starbucks after
:38:04. > :38:09.their tax affair? As a tea drinker it's not one of my first ports of
:38:09. > :38:13.call. I was out with my family last night and we went to another
:38:13. > :38:17.company doing a similar service. And paying their tax? Yes. What do
:38:17. > :38:24.you think about Starbucks? I think where tax is due on profit that is
:38:24. > :38:27.made in this country, tax should be paid upon it. Don't forget tax do
:38:27. > :38:31.pay payroll taxes for those they employ. Where they're making
:38:31. > :38:35.profits and not declaring them, that needs to change. It has put me
:38:35. > :38:41.off, yes, very much so. I was a bit of a Starbucks person until this
:38:41. > :38:45.all started coming out in the news. It's put me off shopping at Amazon.
:38:45. > :38:49.I was quite an Amazon shopper. It puts you off because you think
:38:49. > :38:52.you're being taken for a ride and at a time when the country is being
:38:52. > :38:58.absolutely crucified because of the cuts, cuts, cuts, and yet these
:38:58. > :39:02.people are getting away with. It it makes us feel angry as consumers.
:39:02. > :39:05.Get ago way it, perfectly legally, of course, we should say. There
:39:05. > :39:09.were protests planned against Starbucks and several other high
:39:09. > :39:12.profile companies in the West this weekend. People's anger has been
:39:12. > :39:19.fuelled bit Chancellor's statement on Thursday, which promised more
:39:19. > :39:22.and more austerity. Paul Barltrop has been gauging the reaction.
:39:22. > :39:26.There were Christmas decorations on Downing Street but few presents.
:39:26. > :39:29.The Chancellor instead went to Parliament bearing gloomy facts
:39:29. > :39:35.about the economy. Instead of taking three years to get our debt
:39:35. > :39:39.falling, it's going to take four. It is a hard road, but we're
:39:39. > :39:43.getting there. The public know there are no miracle cures.
:39:43. > :39:48.promises made in 2010 by the new coalition Government must now be
:39:48. > :39:53.explained away by its MPs. course is still right. But the
:39:53. > :39:58.length of the jurn ji going to take longer. -- journey is going to take
:39:58. > :40:02.longer. It is disappointing. All politicians want their well
:40:02. > :40:07.intentioned, best-laid plans to come to fruition. We are not
:40:07. > :40:11.entirely masters of our destiny. We have a global globalised economy.
:40:11. > :40:13.Things blow us off course. That's the way it is. Yes it is tough,
:40:14. > :40:18.very tough. I've looked at the Autumn Statement. Yes, there are
:40:18. > :40:23.things I'd like to see a bit more of. Ultimately, that was a tiegtd
:40:23. > :40:26.wire. We're walking along a tiny piece of wire to make sure we don't
:40:26. > :40:30.go in recession, keep interest rates low, keep regulation back. We
:40:30. > :40:36.stand up for Britain plc. If in Westminster it was a hard message
:40:36. > :40:41.to sell, it's even harder back in the West Country. They could have
:40:41. > :40:45.done something more at the higher end, increasing the higher
:40:45. > :40:49.percentage tax threshold I think. My husband's been made redundant,
:40:49. > :40:54.that obviously has an impact. We dopbtd know how long he will be out
:40:54. > :40:57.of work. The Government needs to look at corporation's that avoid
:40:57. > :41:00.paying tax. They seem more than capable to chase people that
:41:00. > :41:08.defraud benefits, which I get, that's fair enough. I think they
:41:08. > :41:12.ought to look to big businesss to try and reclaim the tax. There's
:41:12. > :41:17.clear anger that lots of big businesses pay little tax to the
:41:17. > :41:21.Treasury. Vodaphone and this weekend's -- weekend Starbucks have
:41:21. > :41:26.faced protests. Critics say the rich are easily able to avoid
:41:26. > :41:30.paying while the poor get clobbered. I'm seeing many more people coming
:41:30. > :41:33.to me who can't get by on their income. You only have to look for
:41:33. > :41:38.the figures in the rise of the number of food banks in Bristol, to
:41:38. > :41:42.realise this is the working poor who have to feed themselves.
:41:42. > :41:45.There's something drastically wrong that that's happening. It's a time
:41:45. > :41:49.for giving, though this isn't the traditional image. Charities like
:41:49. > :41:54.this one in Swindon, reckon this Christmas they'll hand out more
:41:54. > :41:59.food than ever. Let's discuss a few of those issues.
:41:59. > :42:02.Rob, food banks, increasing popularity. The Government's got
:42:02. > :42:06.its economic policy completely wrong, hasn't it? No, it hasn't.
:42:06. > :42:09.When you look at figures relating to the annual deficit, they're
:42:09. > :42:13.coming down. They've come down by over a quarter. That's important
:42:13. > :42:17.for the long-term because we need to have annual budgets that are
:42:17. > :42:21.sustainable. Now, I know that overall debt is going to increase
:42:21. > :42:26.until a later period that we hoped. But that's because as a Government
:42:26. > :42:31.we continue to spend on important public services. We are maintaining
:42:31. > :42:35.a balance here. That argument -- does that argument wash with the
:42:35. > :42:38.people in quur constituency who need to go to food banks?
:42:38. > :42:42.understand and fully appreciate the problems they're in. Indeed as a
:42:42. > :42:46.constituency MP if people are in need I'll direct them to that help.
:42:46. > :42:49.We've increased - It would be better if we didn't need food banks.
:42:49. > :42:53.We've increased prot file of the banks so more people know about it.
:42:53. > :42:57.To use that was a single example to say somehow that the economy is
:42:57. > :43:01.going off course and the economic policy going off course is wrong. I
:43:01. > :43:05.think that the Government set out its stall clearly in 2010. We are
:43:05. > :43:10.trying to do something for our children and grandchildren. This is
:43:10. > :43:14.for the long-term, not a quick fix. I can't see that any part of the
:43:14. > :43:19.Government policy is succeeding. I never believed in the amount of
:43:19. > :43:22.cuts, so fast and so far. None of the Labour Party did. At the same
:43:22. > :43:26.time, the actual stance that the Chancellor took to cut the deficit
:43:26. > :43:30.and the debt that hasn't worked either. The triple-A rating which
:43:30. > :43:34.is such an important thing for our country as a nation economically,
:43:34. > :43:38.around the globe, even that's under threat. Why are we putding up with
:43:38. > :43:43.all this pain for no gain. There's no growth in the economy. In my
:43:43. > :43:47.constituency, where I live, there's over 3,000 unemployed. I think
:43:47. > :43:52.there's nearly 2,500 in Robert's. Without people working, earning,
:43:52. > :43:56.paying tax, being able to buy things in shops, there's no growth.
:43:56. > :44:02.Gordon Brown spent money like a stkrunken sailor or shore leave.
:44:02. > :44:07.couldn't possible lay gree with that. This situation has caused the
:44:07. > :44:11.crash of 2007/2008. The Tory and Lib Dem mantra that we sometimes
:44:11. > :44:15.hear that it's a Labour mess isn't accurate. How will you fight the
:44:15. > :44:19.next election with austerity still it in place? We will fight the next
:44:19. > :44:22.election on a record of increasing employment and a growing economy.
:44:22. > :44:26.What's happening out there - said that last time, didn't you?
:44:26. > :44:29.The idea was that by the next election the economy was supposed
:44:29. > :44:32.to be back on track and everything would be fine. I think when you
:44:32. > :44:37.look at the reality of what's going on out there, I'm seeing growth.
:44:37. > :44:41.I'm seeing change. I'm seeing increased employment. I'm seeing a
:44:41. > :44:45.-- more opportunities. Talking the economy down all the time, which is
:44:45. > :44:48.what the media seem to be obsessed by, isn't the right approach. We
:44:48. > :44:53.have to take a long-term view. The Government is doing that by
:44:53. > :44:56.extending its plans. I think that bearing in mind the mess that we
:44:56. > :45:00.were left with, baring in mind -- bearing in miebd the current
:45:00. > :45:05.problems in the eurozone and elsz wherein the world, Britain is
:45:05. > :45:12.holding its own, doing its best. The alternative then to what he's
:45:12. > :45:18.say sning We started off talk uing about Starbucks. There's an
:45:18. > :45:22.estimated �95 billion in the sceinger... Where does that figure
:45:23. > :45:26.come from? I Labour put that figure out this week. I presume it's an
:45:26. > :45:31.official figure. They're estimates. It's a handy estimate for you?
:45:31. > :45:37.it makes sense. We know that Starbucks are avoiding tax, Amazon,
:45:37. > :45:40.Google, I think Boots came out today under 38 degrees avoiding tax.
:45:40. > :45:44.There's a swathe of companies. I'm not saying it's the only answer. We
:45:44. > :45:49.have to do all sorts of things to get the economy back on track. We
:45:49. > :45:53.can build more houses. That would be a great stimulus. Cutting,
:45:53. > :45:58.cutting just stagnates the economy and starves of it oxygen to grow.
:45:58. > :46:01.The reality is we're pegging back spnding, not having absolute cuts.
:46:02. > :46:06.This austerity word is wrong. We are trying to peg back the rate at
:46:06. > :46:10.which we're spending. Labour let the brakes off and caused chaos
:46:10. > :46:13.with the economy. Now, an investigation by the Sunday
:46:13. > :46:18.Politics shows three quarters of local councils do not have plans in
:46:18. > :46:23.place for building more houses. It's two years since the Government
:46:23. > :46:26.scrapped centrally impolesed targets. The idea was to decide
:46:26. > :46:29.where houses should be built after listening to local people. They
:46:29. > :46:32.listened and people told them to get lost with the result that
:46:32. > :46:36.there's a chronic shortage of house building. We asked our political
:46:36. > :46:43.reporters to give us the latest situation in their areas. We start
:46:43. > :46:46.in Somerset. Planning has always been a tricky subject for
:46:46. > :46:51.councillors. After all it's not the most popular thing in a world to
:46:51. > :46:55.agree to the building of a new housing estate, specially on green
:46:55. > :46:58.spaces like this. Under the last Government local politicians could
:46:58. > :47:05.blame Westminster as it was them telling us in the West how many
:47:05. > :47:11.homes were needed. Now we lack any sort of strategic, wide-area
:47:11. > :47:16.framework for housing, for housing numbers, objectives and so on. Each
:47:16. > :47:23.Council has to determine its own figures. And the problem with that
:47:23. > :47:30.is that it's very difficult to find a way through the political process
:47:30. > :47:37.of sometimes accepting things which people locally might find
:47:37. > :47:41.unpleasant and undesirable. Over the last two years, I've spent many
:47:42. > :47:45.hours sitting in council chambers like this one, where the debate has
:47:45. > :47:50.been by councillors, just how many homes are needed. But agreement has
:47:50. > :47:53.been hard to reach. Obviously the councillors work in a political
:47:53. > :47:56.environment as well. Therefore they've got different filters. They
:47:56. > :48:00.see things differently to us. That's all part of the system.
:48:00. > :48:04.We'll give them the baseline information and the best advice we
:48:05. > :48:09.can. In the end it's over to them to try and fit those housing
:48:09. > :48:13.numbers into the society in which they live. Out of the 17 local
:48:13. > :48:16.authorities across the West, four have housing plans officially
:48:16. > :48:21.agreed by the Government. But at least five tell me they don't
:48:21. > :48:27.expect to have their plans signed off for at least another two years.
:48:27. > :48:31.But the problem is, without plans in place, developments across the
:48:31. > :48:35.West is not being decided by local communities and councillors, but
:48:35. > :48:38.left up to the planning expector and even -- inspector and even the
:48:38. > :48:42.courts to decide. In Bristol, the politicians agreed
:48:42. > :48:46.their housing numbers last year. The challenge for the new mayor of
:48:46. > :48:49.this city is to find sites for these homes and fast. But that's
:48:49. > :48:53.not going to be easy when you're faced with local people fighting
:48:54. > :48:58.against new developments in their backyard. The National Housing
:48:58. > :49:01.Federation say councillors need to get a move on. There's a
:49:01. > :49:04.significant shortage. We know we're only building around 60% of the
:49:04. > :49:07.home that's we need and we've been doing that year on year on year,
:49:07. > :49:11.which means house prices are incredibly high. People are
:49:11. > :49:16.struggling to find an affordable place to live. We need to start
:49:16. > :49:21.tackling this problem. There's surely nothing better than a nice
:49:21. > :49:24.country walk on a crisp winter's day. Many people choose to move to
:49:24. > :49:29.the countryside, to the green lungs away from the urban sprawl, like
:49:29. > :49:33.here on the outskirts of war minster in Wiltshire. What people
:49:33. > :49:38.don't realise is much of that green space is privately owned, there
:49:38. > :49:42.foremaking it rich pickings for developers. And that creates
:49:42. > :49:50.tensions. These campaigners don't want their views over green fields
:49:50. > :49:53.swapped for a housing estate with 3200 -- 320 new homes. The they the
:49:53. > :49:58.Government must not side with developers but listen to local
:49:58. > :50:03.people. I believe the council now needs to look strategically at
:50:03. > :50:08.development round this market town in order to ensure that it's
:50:08. > :50:12.balanced and sustainable. This particular speculative proposal is
:50:12. > :50:16.not sustainable and is unbalancened and will have a major impact on the
:50:16. > :50:21.infrastructure of this town. dilemma for our local politician sz
:50:21. > :50:25.for every person who says you must build more homes, there's a local
:50:25. > :50:30.community fighting against overdevelopment.
:50:30. > :50:34.Joining the debate is Chris Winter, a property developer from Taunton.
:50:34. > :50:37.Welcome to our front room. How difficult is it for you to get a
:50:37. > :50:45.housing development under way in the West Country? It's becoming
:50:45. > :50:50.more challenging. I think the core strategy process that is being gone
:50:50. > :50:56.through a -- by a lot of local authorities is slow and pro --
:50:56. > :50:59.protracted. The planning process itself has become more onerous.
:50:59. > :51:05.of our 17 local authorities haven't got housing plans to the. Does that
:51:05. > :51:11.cause you a lot of problems? does because housing numbers
:51:11. > :51:14.haven't been allocated, therefore there is no due process. There's a
:51:14. > :51:18.shortage of allocated sites and land supplies, therefore, not there
:51:18. > :51:23.for housing. Why can't they get their act together? That's a very
:51:23. > :51:28.good question. Why do you think? think the process is very
:51:28. > :51:36.protracted. Resources within local authorities are perhaps not there.
:51:36. > :51:41.I'm sure the system is becoming more politically driven, therefore
:51:41. > :51:51.councillors have having difficult decisions to make with their ward
:51:51. > :51:51.
:51:51. > :51:54.members Anderlecht rat. The problem is -- Members and electorate.
:51:55. > :51:59.problem is people don't want more houses. Is the demand exaggerated
:51:59. > :52:03.do you think? It's definitely not exaggerated. There's demand for
:52:03. > :52:09.open market and affordable housing. Where we operate in Taunton, the
:52:09. > :52:12.housing waiting list of 4,000 people. There is demand. We as
:52:12. > :52:16.developers wouldn't build if there wasn't a market. We wouldn't build
:52:16. > :52:20.for fun. If people can afford them, of course. Let's bring in our
:52:20. > :52:25.politicians. This is a failure of localism. The Government said it
:52:25. > :52:30.would be a good idea, let the councils decide. We won't impose
:52:30. > :52:35.central targets but it hasn't happened. We are in a transitional
:52:35. > :52:39.phase between the old policy, the regional spatial strategy about
:52:39. > :52:44.top-down housing targets and a newer policy of localism. You've
:52:44. > :52:47.seen appeals and decisions made in this hangover period. I believe
:52:47. > :52:51.that with localism and with the eemergencying local plans that
:52:52. > :52:55.we've been talking about that there will be far more local
:52:55. > :52:58.understanding and far more sense of ownership about what's going to
:52:58. > :53:02.happen locally. We have to make planning popular again. I think
:53:02. > :53:08.members of the public feel that these applications are sprung up on
:53:08. > :53:11.them and developers themselves have to learn betder ways in which to
:53:11. > :53:15.engage public and talk through with them the benefits of planning.
:53:15. > :53:19.Swindon, for example, has been a growing town for generations. We
:53:19. > :53:23.have benefited in terms of infrastructure and leisure
:53:23. > :53:27.facilities as a result of planning. That needs to be explained again.
:53:27. > :53:32.Amanda, this isn't a new problem, it's been going on for years in
:53:32. > :53:38.Britain. How do we build more houses and make them acceptable to
:53:38. > :53:42.people in low kalts. I have to agree with what Rob was saying.
:53:42. > :53:46.It's a political hot potato. The councillors are thinking about
:53:46. > :53:50.their electorate as much as about the good of the whole. It's a
:53:50. > :53:57.balancing act all the time. Maybe the planners need to get more savvy
:53:57. > :54:01.how they do more community engagement, at the early stages,
:54:01. > :54:06.rather than thrust it on them at latter stages. You need people with
:54:06. > :54:10.you at the early stages. Is that possible, can you crawl up to local
:54:10. > :54:14.people and persuade them before the plans are in? You have to do it.
:54:14. > :54:18.That's part of the process now. It's required as part of a planning
:54:18. > :54:24.preparation of a planning application. The problem is with
:54:24. > :54:31.the term localism is what does it mean? When localism was first
:54:31. > :54:37.mooted certainly it appeared to us that it became the nimbies - not in
:54:37. > :54:40.my backyard - so we can reject everything, as po posed to local
:54:40. > :54:45.authorities naiking -- opposed to local authorities making decisions.
:54:45. > :54:48.Not just those directly affected, but the whole town. You can
:54:48. > :54:51.certainly engage and you aren't going to win everybody over, but
:54:51. > :54:57.you can allow them to influence perhaps how the development goes.
:54:57. > :55:01.The planning minister is suggesting that we build on another 2% to 3%
:55:01. > :55:05.of England to try and free up more land pour more homes. That, he says,
:55:06. > :55:11.would sort out the problem, do you agree? I think Nick is right to say
:55:11. > :55:16.there is a housing problem. There is a shortage of supply. This is
:55:16. > :55:20.Nick Bowles. Yes, but it's where you do it. There is demand in the
:55:20. > :55:24.south of England. We tend to be, we are becoming more and more
:55:24. > :55:28.overcrowded in the south of England. It's a little too easy to just say
:55:28. > :55:33.let's find an extra 3%. The question is where. The Swindons of
:55:33. > :55:36.this world have been and continue to build. I think it's incumbent
:55:36. > :55:41.upon other areas to say we will take our fair share too to spread
:55:41. > :55:46.out and balance this demand. want to represent an area, Bristol
:55:46. > :55:54.south, home to the vast council housing estates there. Should there
:55:54. > :55:58.be more building in that area? Should we stretch out? Well, I have
:55:58. > :56:03.to express a personal investment. I have a beautiful view from my
:56:03. > :56:07.bedroom window, we go back to that. I think we've got such density of
:56:07. > :56:11.housing in south Bristol, if anything we need to get more
:56:11. > :56:16.infrastructure there of different things. We need more shops. We need
:56:16. > :56:21.more cinemas. It's just huge swathes of housing which can be
:56:21. > :56:24.depressing for people if there's nothing to do there.
:56:24. > :56:29.Excuse me. Before I choke. We have to leave it there. Thank you for
:56:29. > :56:36.coming in. Time now for our race through this
:56:36. > :56:39.week's political stories in 60 seconds.
:56:39. > :56:45.Liam Fox, the former Defence Secretary, says the dropping of
:56:45. > :56:50.plans for a new community hospital for Clevedon are extraordinary and
:56:50. > :56:53.completely unacceptable. He's angry at the Primary Care Trust. It is
:56:53. > :56:57.scandalous that perfectly reasonable questions by the
:56:57. > :57:01.community and by their member of Parliament were almost completely
:57:01. > :57:05.ignored and left unanswered. Cider makers and drinkers are angry at
:57:05. > :57:08.Government plans toint deuce a minimum price for alcohol. The
:57:08. > :57:13.Government minister and Somerset MP David Heath got a grilling over
:57:13. > :57:17.plans in Parliament this week. Government's ill-conceived plan to
:57:17. > :57:22.regulate for a minimum price will have a devastating impact on West
:57:22. > :57:26.Country cider farmers. Well, Mr Speaker, the right honourable
:57:26. > :57:30.gentleman is very well aware that because of my constituency
:57:30. > :57:40.interests I cannot answer that question in a ministerial capacity.
:57:40. > :57:44.
:57:44. > :57:48.Well that was the week, lots been happening. Let's talk about cheap
:57:48. > :57:52.alcohol. Is the Government right to try to put up the price? Put up the
:57:52. > :57:57.price, the minimum unit? Yes. I think it's got to be done because
:57:57. > :58:00.we have such a problem especially with binge drinking. What worries
:58:00. > :58:05.me is we might see the windfall going to the supermarkets rather
:58:05. > :58:10.than back into the community. I know it's to stop problem drinking,
:58:10. > :58:14.but the type of people that my charity looks after, I am the chair
:58:14. > :58:17.of Hawks, we look after people with drink and drug dependencey in the
:58:17. > :58:22.poorest areas of Bristol south. They will want those drinks,
:58:22. > :58:25.whatever price they are. That could lead to more crime. They would just
:58:25. > :58:29.pay whatever? Because they're addicts. Until they're clean and
:58:29. > :58:32.through a proper detox programme, which there are fantastic
:58:32. > :58:36.programmes going on now through GPs in the area, these people are going
:58:36. > :58:41.to need that substance because they're addicts. David Heath got
:58:41. > :58:45.himself in a bit of a mess, he can't talk about cider because they
:58:46. > :58:52.make sider in his constituency, that would mean the Health Minister
:58:52. > :58:55.can't talk about hospital. presume he took advice or looked at
:58:55. > :58:58.the Ministerial Code of Conduct. I'm not clear why that should be
:58:58. > :59:02.the case. If he declared an interest, surely he could answer
:59:02. > :59:07.the question. It seems a little confusing to me. On the central
:59:07. > :59:10.issue about whether there should be a higher minimum price for alcohol?
:59:10. > :59:13.I think a very interesting point made about addiction. We have to
:59:13. > :59:17.think about people coming into alcohol for the first time. The
:59:17. > :59:20.there -- there is a problem in piling it high and selling it cheap.
:59:20. > :59:25.I'm not convinced actually that the minimum pricing system would work
:59:25. > :59:29.that well. I think it's all about the type of drink, particularly
:59:29. > :59:35.alcopops and the like that entice younger people into drinking.
:59:35. > :59:38.a shame that you can't buy a cheap bottle of wieb. -- wine. This is
:59:38. > :59:42.the thing. It's penalising the vast majority who don't have a problem
:59:42. > :59:46.with alcohol. Though it's a dangerous substance and has, leads
:59:46. > :59:49.to terrible problems in society, most people can enjoy a glass of
:59:49. > :59:53.wine with a meal or bottle of wine if they're having a party. That's
:59:53. > :59:58.all we have time for this week. Thank you to our guests, Robert