:01:24. > :01:27.In the west: It may be Christmas, but scrooge is alive and well.
:01:27. > :01:37.Local councils want to close your public toilets to save a few
:01:37. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :37:27.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2150 seconds
:37:27. > :37:32.pennies. But what other services Thank you Andrew. Welcome to our
:37:32. > :37:36.final Sunday Politics of 2012 in the West. There is not a comfort
:37:36. > :37:41.break for us because today toilets are on our agenda. Councils want to
:37:41. > :37:44.pull the plug on public toilets to save a few pennies. Should these
:37:44. > :37:47.public services really be sacrificed in the name of
:37:47. > :37:51.austerity? Joining us with their knees firmly
:37:51. > :37:58.together are took West Country MPs who share the same executive
:37:58. > :38:02.bathrooms. They are dom foster the Liberal Democrat and the
:38:02. > :38:07.Conservative Neil Carmichael. Welcome. You might be colleagues,
:38:07. > :38:10.but the latest spat between the Lib Dems and Conservatives, this time
:38:10. > :38:18.over drug policy, the Prime Minister says thing should stay as
:38:18. > :38:22.they are and Nick Clegg is open to change. He is right? I think the
:38:22. > :38:28.Prime Minister is absolutely right to make sure that we give careful
:38:28. > :38:32.consideration to drugs. It needs to be on the agenda, certainly, but we
:38:32. > :38:38.have to think in a different way. I am a great believer in
:38:38. > :38:42.rehabilitation. So you think it should be different? I don't think
:38:42. > :38:49.it is necessary at this stage because there is a clear policy on
:38:49. > :38:54.drugs. Don Foster? He posed the question as if you are surprised
:38:54. > :38:58.that two different political parties in a coalition differ on
:38:58. > :39:03.certain areas of policy. Liberal Democrats have argued for a very
:39:03. > :39:07.long time that our current drugs policy doesn't work. We have argued
:39:07. > :39:10.that they should be a royal commission to look at a new way
:39:10. > :39:15.forward and taking experiences that have been successful in other
:39:15. > :39:20.countries. Nick Clegg is reflecting what the Liberal Democrats have
:39:20. > :39:24.always said. The two parties will argue and eventually come with a
:39:24. > :39:30.united solution. Your view them should be to decriminalise some
:39:30. > :39:36.drugs? There is hardly any point to say you want a Royal Commission and
:39:36. > :39:41.then predetermine the outcome. I do have a view and I have expressed it
:39:41. > :39:44.on your programme before. I actually think that when they
:39:44. > :39:49.raised the classification of cannabis and then took it down and
:39:49. > :39:55.then back up again, it was crazy. It was not based on research
:39:55. > :40:00.evidence that said that cannabis is less harmful than alcohol.
:40:00. > :40:05.should find out this week how tough the next year will be for the West
:40:05. > :40:11.councils. The government is due to announce funding. What is certain
:40:11. > :40:15.is there will be used more cuts to come. Red tape has been slashed so
:40:15. > :40:19.now a prisoner of services which councils are not obliged to provide.
:40:19. > :40:23.One major casualty of public toilets.
:40:23. > :40:28.For decades they have been providing relief, but things are
:40:28. > :40:32.now getting much less convenient for the public. Bath and North East
:40:32. > :40:36.Somerset Council wants to wash its hands of the dozen after consulting
:40:36. > :40:41.local communities. Public facilities like these have been
:40:41. > :40:47.around for years and it is a shame to see them go. It is very useful
:40:47. > :40:51.for the young and old alike to have conveniences. I think it is unfair
:40:51. > :40:59.and unnecessary to get rid of it. can't remember the last time I used
:40:59. > :41:05.a public toilet. But the others are doing likewise. Somerset is
:41:05. > :41:11.shutting for him wince at -- in winter. North Somerset has already
:41:11. > :41:16.closed seven. Nationally it is estimated that 50% have closed in
:41:16. > :41:20.the last 10 years. This is one of the public toilets
:41:20. > :41:23.that Bath North East Somerset want to stop funding. They want to do so
:41:23. > :41:28.because there is no legal obligation on councils to provide
:41:28. > :41:32.them. They are asking town and parish councils if they want to
:41:32. > :41:39.take them over, but that is a financial burden not many want to
:41:39. > :41:44.bed. This toilet closed earlier this year after the parish council
:41:44. > :41:49.took the bill for taking it over. Handing it over to the local town
:41:49. > :41:54.or parish council does not save public money. If the district
:41:55. > :41:59.council isn't paying money, we are. It all comes out of our pockets.
:41:59. > :42:04.The council decided that we couldn't afford it. Locals are
:42:04. > :42:10.campaigning to get it reopened. people in the village have signed
:42:10. > :42:14.the petition. They say it has harmed business on the high street
:42:14. > :42:19.that is already facing decline. are losing business by the fact the
:42:19. > :42:26.toilets are not open. It is a facility we need. They are cutting
:42:26. > :42:32.costs for the sake of cutting costs. Unfortunately we are a small
:42:32. > :42:35.village and we can't afford to keep it open. They will present their
:42:35. > :42:40.petition to the district council, but the man grappling with next
:42:40. > :42:45.year's budget may not be swayed. His coppers have already been
:42:46. > :42:53.dented by the recent floods. We are being squeezed budget twice, there
:42:53. > :42:58.are no two ways about it. It is a time of brutal choices. It is a
:42:58. > :43:03.discretionary activity. I am asking residents which they would prefer
:43:03. > :43:07.and I think they would come back to us and say to keep the sandbags and
:43:08. > :43:12.close the toilets. The big money decision about what governments
:43:12. > :43:19.will give councils originates in Downing Street. In your street, the
:43:19. > :43:22.buck and the box may well stop here. We think it is on Wednesday that
:43:22. > :43:28.councils will be told how much money they will receive so the
:43:28. > :43:35.trouble could hit the fan this week. Joining the debate is the Mayor of
:43:35. > :43:40.Bristol. And a Labour councillor in Gloucester. Let's talk about
:43:40. > :43:44.toilets first. Kate, why can't councils do something as simple and
:43:44. > :43:49.basic as providing a public toilet? It comes down to money and the
:43:49. > :43:54.problem is that local councils have had the earliest and deepest cuts
:43:54. > :43:59.of any part of the public sector. Therefore, services they do not
:43:59. > :44:04.have to provide, however much local residents may want to provide them,
:44:04. > :44:09.they bear the brunt. But it is basic, isn't it? Isn't that what
:44:09. > :44:14.councils are therefore? It is and I'm sure residents and councillors
:44:14. > :44:20.want to provide those services, but when so many cuts are coming down
:44:20. > :44:26.from government, we really can't afford to do it. It is not an issue,
:44:26. > :44:31.I guess at the top of your agenda, but it is important, isn't it?
:44:31. > :44:36.is very important and I have had to consider everything. We are having
:44:36. > :44:41.to cut 25% of our net budget. That is huge and we have to look at
:44:41. > :44:44.everything that isn't statutory. I'm desperately trying to save
:44:44. > :44:50.public toilets, but I was then the next year thinking of clever ways
:44:50. > :44:54.of doing things. In south Bristol we have a map of cafes and bars
:44:54. > :44:59.that are prepared to allow the public to use their toilets. That
:44:59. > :45:03.gives a better service in many ways. I would like to see whether some
:45:03. > :45:07.public toilets can be used as little businesses, may be having a
:45:07. > :45:12.flower shop in conjunction and the person who takes it takes
:45:12. > :45:18.responsibility for it. I think we have to get clever about it rather
:45:18. > :45:26.than assume that councils supply everything. Don Foster, you are a
:45:26. > :45:30.Lib Dem where they want to close at least 12 toilets. They are also
:45:30. > :45:36.working with pubs and restaurants and others to see if they can allow
:45:36. > :45:41.the public to use those. George is absolutely right, we are going to
:45:41. > :45:45.have to find smarter ways of doing things. In some cases, public lose
:45:46. > :45:51.heart I'll run by volunteers. We also know we have many councils
:45:51. > :45:55.beginning to think about working collaboratively. Why is every
:45:55. > :46:00.council separately collecting in their rates many? Why do they have
:46:00. > :46:03.a joint collection? There are lots of really interesting innovative
:46:03. > :46:09.ways of doing things to reduce costs and often to improve the
:46:09. > :46:13.quality of service. Your department will announce how much money the
:46:13. > :46:20.councils get next year from central government. That is a crucial
:46:20. > :46:26.figure, isn't it? What are you expecting To here? I am partly
:46:26. > :46:30.going to be saying, and I certainly won't tell you on this programme
:46:30. > :46:36.because it will be announced when the figures are available. You
:46:36. > :46:42.can't have an exclusive. Councils spend collectively �114 billion per
:46:42. > :46:48.year, one quarter of total expenditure. It is a time where we
:46:48. > :46:54.are having to make cuts so it is right some proper that local
:46:54. > :46:59.councils take a share. You can give us a sting. Councils themselves
:46:59. > :47:03.already know, roughly speaking, what they will be getting. What
:47:03. > :47:08.they heard in the Autumn Statement was good news. They heard that
:47:08. > :47:13.every other department is having A1 per Saint cut, but we are not
:47:13. > :47:18.applying it to local councils. We also heard that in the following
:47:18. > :47:23.year, there is a 2% cut across all government departments and that
:47:23. > :47:28.will include a local government. How strict do you want the
:47:28. > :47:34.announcement to be? I think it is important we understand that the
:47:34. > :47:40.deficit has to be reduced. It is important that we get control of
:47:40. > :47:49.public expenditure and local government is part of that. One
:47:50. > :47:53.uttered every �4 is spent on local government. The other driver here
:47:53. > :48:01.is localism has. We need to start respecting that. What choice do
:48:01. > :48:04.they have if they is Kurt? Gloucestershire we are successful
:48:04. > :48:11.at maintaining libraries and are not closing in the toilets and that
:48:11. > :48:16.is because we have a reserve. bring someone in a at the sharp end.
:48:16. > :48:21.Your council has made 3.9 million in savings. There isn't room for
:48:21. > :48:28.much more. We have a community toilette scheme in Gloucester and
:48:28. > :48:35.there is hardly any public toilet provision. Otherwise the services
:48:35. > :48:40.that people rely on, we are seeing increasing demand. We spent more on
:48:40. > :48:48.homelessness in the last six months than in the previous year. There is
:48:48. > :48:55.no recognition of that in the grants we get from government.
:48:55. > :49:00.George, again, you have a �36 million black hole? A �36 million
:49:00. > :49:06.hole in the Budget. Had he made any decisions yet? I have made
:49:06. > :49:11.decisions, some of which will be announced on the 20th, in terms of
:49:11. > :49:16.provisional decisions because they go out to consultation in January.
:49:16. > :49:21.There isn't a lot of room for movement. I have to live within our
:49:21. > :49:27.means. We are taking the brunt of government cuts that local
:49:27. > :49:32.authorities are taking the brunt. Could you give us any idea of what
:49:32. > :49:37.you might be saying? George has already said he will put council
:49:37. > :49:43.tax up. I have said that and the maximum I can put it up, which is
:49:43. > :49:50.still a virtual freeze because it is under 2%. In terms of cut --
:49:50. > :49:54.cuts, where will you hit? They will be across the border. There are
:49:54. > :50:00.certain essential services that I cannot cut and I want to make sure
:50:00. > :50:05.we protect the most vulnerable. And you will see that I will protect
:50:05. > :50:09.the most vulnerable. It is also important to keep council tax low
:50:09. > :50:15.because that is something vulnerable people are affected by.
:50:15. > :50:19.I want to see that we to protect the mayors from rubble. We have to
:50:19. > :50:24.move on because this is the season of goodwill to all men and despite
:50:24. > :50:29.the doom and gloom, there are some real stories of community spirit
:50:29. > :50:33.saving local services that have lost government funding. There
:50:33. > :50:41.isforce group in our Christmas story now.
:50:41. > :50:49.Are you sitting comfortably? Then let us begin. Deck the halls with
:50:49. > :50:53.bowls of Harley. Our first Christmas tale is of our libraries.
:50:53. > :50:59.In Christmases past they enjoyed Council funding, but many have
:50:59. > :51:05.faced serious cuts. That did not spell the end, many have been saved.
:51:05. > :51:11.Here in Brockworth, the community stepped in. Father Christmas's sack
:51:11. > :51:16.stuffed with help from volunteers and local donations. We can do it
:51:16. > :51:20.differently. We have a very good business model in terms of
:51:20. > :51:25.volunteer support. You can't do it on fresh air, we still have to pay
:51:25. > :51:35.the gas and electric bill. We can do it cost-effectively, but not for
:51:35. > :51:37.
:51:38. > :51:42.free, that is the message to politicians.
:51:42. > :51:46.Our second tale today is of a good old heart warming meal and time to
:51:47. > :51:52.meet friends. Even in this time of austerity, much of the adult care
:51:52. > :51:57.budget has been saved from cuts, but sunk -- funding for some lunch
:51:57. > :52:03.clubs has been axed, like this one in Bristol. It lost its grand, but
:52:03. > :52:12.with the help of Janet, Christmas present is still a happy one. David
:52:12. > :52:22.Cameron's big society in action. are having it here as a church
:52:22. > :52:31.
:52:31. > :52:35.project. Without people giving us Our final tale is of our young
:52:35. > :52:38.people and Christmases of the future. The budgets for youth
:52:38. > :52:44.centres have been slashed by as much as three-quarters in some
:52:44. > :52:48.areas, but most youth clubs have been saved by volunteers. Hand-made
:52:48. > :52:54.Christmas cards and messages to loved ones will be kept for years
:52:54. > :52:58.to come. Until 18 months ago it was funded by the county council. They
:52:58. > :53:05.ceased all funding so it was a matter of either shutting up all
:53:05. > :53:10.carrying on as best we could. has been a happy Christmas all
:53:10. > :53:20.round. Thank you Santa and his community helpers. My ary Christmas
:53:20. > :53:23.
:53:23. > :53:28.Everyone! Neil Carmichael is chatting away. He never stopped.
:53:28. > :53:31.Let's talk about Santa and the big society. Is it working or is it a
:53:31. > :53:36.question of David Cameron foisting of other people's jobs on to the
:53:36. > :53:42.voluntary sector. In my constituency we have some great
:53:42. > :53:48.successes. I am dominating it for an award because it is doing so
:53:48. > :53:52.well as a community because of the big society. Tomorrow I am going to
:53:52. > :53:57.the opening of the Berkeley Library which is another successful element
:53:57. > :54:01.of big society. We don't have any libraries closed in Gloucestershire.
:54:01. > :54:07.Kate, I can't think of a major library or youth club that has
:54:07. > :54:12.close despite the cuts. Volunteers have come in and saved them. Have
:54:12. > :54:16.you been crying wolf over the effects of cuts? Not at all. There
:54:16. > :54:26.was a successful campaign against the county council. The scheme
:54:26. > :54:32.where the closure of some libraries was challenged successfully. The
:54:32. > :54:36.library in my ward was to close unless volunteers could run it.
:54:36. > :54:43.they stepped up? That decision has been changed and the library is
:54:43. > :54:47.still open. It has an uncertain future, but the problem is,
:54:47. > :54:51.volunteer libraries may have a place, but you have to have the
:54:51. > :54:56.capacity hummed community to do it. You need the support and a lot of
:54:56. > :55:06.that is down to funding. George, this is an area you are interested
:55:06. > :55:07.
:55:07. > :55:10.in, getting volunteers him. There is a difference between volunteers
:55:10. > :55:15.and the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector has a lot of paid
:55:15. > :55:19.people in it and I think has the answer to a lot of these issues.
:55:19. > :55:24.The voluntary sector is often better geared than local government
:55:24. > :55:30.in providing services. I come for freeing up the tendering services -
:55:30. > :55:36.- processes to allow the voluntary sector to step him more often.
:55:36. > :55:40.is just what we are doing, George. The changes we have made enable us
:55:40. > :55:45.the opportunity for people in the community, including voluntary
:55:45. > :55:50.organisations, to come forward and say we can run the service better.
:55:50. > :55:54.You have to pay us, but we will give a better service. The stuff we
:55:54. > :55:59.have done on local budgets were local communities come together and
:55:59. > :56:03.look at how money is spent in their area and see if they come workout
:56:03. > :56:10.efficient ways of using it. They are finding they can and they can
:56:10. > :56:14.save money. For free? No, this is the community. The people who are
:56:14. > :56:18.benefiting from services coming together and saying they want a
:56:18. > :56:25.bigger say in how money is spent. People who used to do those jobs
:56:25. > :56:29.are going into debt. A lot of services are contracted out, but we
:56:29. > :56:32.always contract them to the same big organisations. George is
:56:32. > :56:38.talking about opening this up and letting other people come with
:56:38. > :56:43.innovative ways. Not necessarily win the volunteers, but to run
:56:43. > :56:48.their services in innovative ways. Are the government on to something?
:56:48. > :56:54.Not necessarily, but we have always had a big voluntary sector in
:56:54. > :56:58.Gloucestershire. I think they is an important role for that, but when
:56:59. > :57:04.it comes down to it, you need certainty that services will be
:57:04. > :57:09.provided and that is where local government has a role to play.
:57:09. > :57:15.Those services are being provided. Vital services have to be provided
:57:15. > :57:20.by professionals. Absolutely, but huge areas are going very well.
:57:20. > :57:26.Education is a key factor. That has nearly all been centralise by the
:57:26. > :57:31.Academy programme. Yes, but the money is coming. But it is not
:57:31. > :57:38.local government, it is centralised. We can't get into that we have run
:57:38. > :57:44.out of time, unfortunately. Thank you both for coming in. He says it
:57:44. > :57:49.will be exciting times ahead, I wonder what he knows that we don't.
:57:49. > :57:59.Let's take our final look at the highlights of the week in our 62nd
:57:59. > :58:05.run down. No new year check throw these rail
:58:05. > :58:09.passengers. Rail fare increases in 2013. Unions handed out Christmas
:58:10. > :58:13.cards bearing a message that ticket prices are rising three times
:58:13. > :58:18.faster than wages. First Great Western said that travelling by
:58:18. > :58:24.train is still cheaper than driving. An emergency fund has been set up
:58:24. > :58:28.in world share to help dozens facing Christmas without savings.
:58:28. > :58:33.60 people invested money in the Christmas club at their local pub,
:58:33. > :58:39.but he and the money went missing. This is the stuff you read about in
:58:39. > :58:44.the paper, you don't expect it in a small community. The things MPs do
:58:44. > :58:49.to their constituents - Charlotte Lesley faced her fear of confined
:58:49. > :58:52.spaces to see a cave campaigners want protected. No one told me how
:58:52. > :58:59.small it was and I am pleased they didn't because I might have
:58:59. > :59:04.chickened out. It was unbelievable that a mayor.
:59:04. > :59:11.That Was the Week That Was. I want to talk about the Christmas Club
:59:11. > :59:16.story that has a lot of reaction. Why do people pay into these clubs?
:59:16. > :59:20.It is a way of saving a little bit every week. He used to have all
:59:20. > :59:27.sorts of organisations that it that more formally. The message is
:59:27. > :59:33.simple, only go to a reputable organisation. Their pack went bust
:59:33. > :59:37.and people lost their money there. I know you don't want more
:59:37. > :59:43.regulation about everything, but is there an argument for more consumer
:59:43. > :59:48.protection? You could not have consumer protection for a situation
:59:48. > :59:54.like this, it is to it informal. Not everybody acts in a dishonest
:59:54. > :59:59.way, that is one thing to remember. Best wishes for Christmas and the
:59:59. > :00:04.new year. Thank you very much indeed. That is all we have time
:00:04. > :00:09.for this week. Thanks again to our guests for joining us on our last
:00:09. > :00:14.programme of 2012. Don't go away because Sunday Politics continues