:01:24. > :01:30.In the West, a landlord who cannot sell his own pub. How the
:01:31. > :01:40.Government's new localism act gives the community the first chance to
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :39:54.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2293 seconds
:39:54. > :39:58.Thanks, Andrew. Welcome to the Sunday Politics here in a very cold
:39:58. > :40:02.west country. But it's not just the weather that's in the deep freeze -
:40:02. > :40:06.many people have had their pay frozen too. This man hasn't though,
:40:06. > :40:08.the new mayor of Bristol finally had his salary agreed this week. It
:40:08. > :40:13.raises the question, are local politicians underpaid for the
:40:13. > :40:17.privilege of looking after us? With me are two guests who join me for
:40:17. > :40:22.the usual BBC appearance fee on programmes like this - nothing at
:40:22. > :40:26.all. They are Stephen Williams, a Liberal Democrat MP in Bristol. And
:40:26. > :40:30.Justin Tomlinson MP, a Conservative from Swindon. They're in government
:40:30. > :40:33.together but on the issue of Europe they don't agree about anything.
:40:33. > :40:35.Stephen WIlliams says, and I quote, "the EU is the most successful
:40:35. > :40:45.multilateral organisation in history and to leave would be
:40:45. > :40:48.
:40:48. > :40:56.madness." that is quite a controversial view these days.
:40:56. > :41:01.I do not know, I think it is quite common sense. Since Britain joined
:41:01. > :41:07.the European Community it has been a great success for us and for
:41:07. > :41:17.Europe as well. When I got into politics we had the Warsaw Pact,
:41:17. > :41:22.the Iron Curtain, the prospect of war and now no one considers the
:41:22. > :41:28.possibility of Europeans fighting with each other. I would far rather
:41:28. > :41:37.go to conferences than be one of those and people who are younger
:41:37. > :41:45.with the prospect of going to war. The position we have with our
:41:45. > :41:54.European neighbours, the vast majority want to reconsider that,
:41:54. > :42:03.is that right? Absolutely. I think it would be the right thing to give
:42:03. > :42:10.people an opportunity to reconsider. I am naturally Eurosceptic. We have
:42:10. > :42:15.got to do what is best for this country. We must recognise
:42:15. > :42:20.fundamental change in the way that Europe works, the UK works and the
:42:20. > :42:23.world economy works. The owner of a village pub in Somerset claims he's
:42:23. > :42:28.lost thousands of pounds because he's not allowed to sell his own
:42:28. > :42:30.property. It's because the government introduced a new law,
:42:30. > :42:34.The Localism Act, which insists that local people should have the
:42:34. > :42:38.first option to buy community buildings. Danie Linsell reports.
:42:38. > :42:42.This is the kind of thing the Localism Act was hoping to save.
:42:42. > :42:45.The old hospital in Minehead closed down in 2011 but two years on, a
:42:45. > :42:55.group of residents have applied to give the building Community Asset
:42:55. > :42:56.
:42:56. > :43:01.status, to stop it from being grabbed by greedy developers.
:43:01. > :43:07.concern has always been that it will be turned into flats. The
:43:07. > :43:13.community really does not want that. It is a fantastic asset for the
:43:13. > :43:23.local community. It is right in the heart of the town here, it creates
:43:23. > :43:26.
:43:26. > :43:29.a perfect community pub. -- hub. They're hoping to turn it into a
:43:29. > :43:32.cultural centre for the town. And are asking for pledges of support
:43:32. > :43:42.and money from locals. Listing it as a community asset means they've
:43:42. > :43:43.
:43:43. > :43:48.now bought themselves some time to try and buy the building. It is a
:43:48. > :43:50.triumph for democracy of a bureaucracy. Well, people in
:43:50. > :43:53.Minehead might agree with local Government Secretary Eric Pickles,
:43:53. > :43:56.but they certainly don't a couple of miles down the road in
:43:56. > :44:00.Monksilver. The local pub has been shut ever since a community group
:44:00. > :44:03.tried to keep it open. The pub here in the village closed its doors
:44:03. > :44:07.last September and it was put up for sale. But local people were
:44:07. > :44:10.worried that they might lose it for good, so they decided to take Mr
:44:10. > :44:19.Pickles up on his offer, and nominate the pub as a Community
:44:19. > :44:26.Asset. The only problem is, the owner wasn't told. I had absolutely
:44:26. > :44:30.no idea this was happening. I had never heard of this legislation. I
:44:30. > :44:36.was dumbfounded. The more I found out about it I was absolutely
:44:36. > :44:42.appalled. In my view this is very bad legislation and I cannot
:44:42. > :44:45.understand why it has come about with a Conservative Government.
:44:45. > :44:48.Under the Localism Act, groups can nominate things like shops or pubs
:44:48. > :44:51.as Community Assets. If the local council approves it, the building
:44:51. > :44:54.cannot be sold on the open market, unless the community has had the
:44:54. > :44:58.chance to buy it first - and they've got six months to come up
:44:58. > :45:01.with the money. The Notley Arms had barely been on the market before it
:45:01. > :45:10.was approved as a Community Asset, giving locals first refusal and
:45:10. > :45:15.stopping any other sales in their tracks. The net result was that we
:45:15. > :45:20.had not one but two purchasers ringing and ringing to purchase. It
:45:20. > :45:25.would have been open, up and running, if it had not been for
:45:25. > :45:28.this ridiculous new legislation. And while the six months provides a
:45:28. > :45:32.welcome buffer zone for the group in Minehead, others are picking up
:45:32. > :45:34.the tab for this new legislation - forced to pay business rates on an
:45:34. > :45:37.empty property they're not allowed to sell. Despite challenging the
:45:37. > :45:42.Community Asset on his pub, West Somerset ruled against Mr Wilkins.
:45:42. > :45:47.But he's adamant. The confrontation with the council may now end up in
:45:47. > :45:50.the courts. So is the Localism Act not what people had hoped for?
:45:50. > :45:55.Joining us in the studio is Darren Jones, who's Labour's chosen
:45:55. > :45:57.candidate for the parliamentary seat of Bristol North West. And
:45:57. > :46:07.beside him, Professor Robin Hambleton, an expert in local
:46:07. > :46:14.
:46:14. > :46:16.government from the University of the West of England. A Conservative
:46:16. > :46:23.Government or conservative in coalition Government passes along
:46:23. > :46:27.that stops at six since selling his property, how does that work?
:46:27. > :46:37.a member of the Save the pub groups will I understand this issue very
:46:37. > :46:38.
:46:38. > :46:43.well. Often a community Cup is the last standing community facility.
:46:43. > :46:52.It is frustrating for the business but that six months allows the
:46:52. > :46:59.community to organise themselves, raise the profile for a sustainable
:46:59. > :47:06.Asset. Here you are telling an honest citizen who he can sell his
:47:06. > :47:13.property to. Six months is not an unreasonable amount of time. But he
:47:13. > :47:18.is still having to pay business rates and he has lost a buyer.
:47:18. > :47:26.know communities where this is the very last facility and once it is
:47:26. > :47:33.gone, it is gone forever. I think there were very good intentions. In
:47:33. > :47:41.this case there may have been poor administrations. It is not just a
:47:41. > :47:46.rural issue, it could be an urban issue as well. There was a similar
:47:46. > :47:51.situation in Bristol where the owners wanted to sell a pub that
:47:51. > :48:01.was more valuable for flats and houses. That is what it is designed
:48:01. > :48:04.
:48:04. > :48:09.to combat, to make sure a community as it is not sold for private use.
:48:09. > :48:14.I think the intentions are good but there are 200 on sections in the
:48:14. > :48:20.act. There is not significant devolution of power flowing from
:48:20. > :48:30.the legislation. We have had a creeping process of centralisation
:48:30. > :48:30.
:48:30. > :48:40.and the desire inadequate process of reversal. Did you notice it was
:48:40. > :48:47.all top-down from Government? said we were committed to localism.
:48:47. > :48:55.Let us be clear about this Act. It is an example of the Government
:48:55. > :49:03.saying one thing and doing another. That is a bit rich coming from
:49:03. > :49:09.Labour. When hospital managers had a question and answer session under
:49:09. > :49:13.Labour the had to ring the Health Secretary. Ed Miliband is talking
:49:13. > :49:18.about a one-nation Labour and what that means for the future of our
:49:18. > :49:25.country. We need to work together to find sensible solutions and make
:49:25. > :49:33.these things work for local people. His localism ever going to work?
:49:33. > :49:41.The Government says it wants more houses but most people have found a
:49:41. > :49:47.fundamental clash between what is happening on their own doorstep and
:49:47. > :49:52.the bigger picture. We are out of line in the UK. We have centralised
:49:52. > :49:58.power in the way that other countries have not. We need a
:49:58. > :50:03.significant reversal. It is helpful that Michael Heseltine in his
:50:03. > :50:11.report, no stone unturned, was looking for ideas for economic
:50:11. > :50:15.growth. He proposed transfer in �12 billion of spending from Whitehall
:50:15. > :50:24.to the local level. That would really be localism but we have not
:50:24. > :50:32.heard too much response to his ideas. M Bristol City v New near
:50:32. > :50:40.now has more control over his budgets. -- in Bristol City v New
:50:40. > :50:45.Mayor now has more control over his budgets. We are committed to
:50:45. > :50:53.localism and have made a very good start but there is still a long way
:50:53. > :50:59.to go. Eric Pickles over wrote the views of local councils when it
:50:59. > :51:04.comes to housing. I was told us a councillor we had to find �36,000
:51:04. > :51:09.within 10 years which was staggering. We now say that local
:51:09. > :51:17.communities can set their own numbers and if they can agree on
:51:17. > :51:23.that they can afford it. What you have to do if you are going to
:51:23. > :51:27.decentralise is allowed those sorts of things to go on. Councils would
:51:27. > :51:35.be financially rewarded if they went out to build houses and could
:51:35. > :51:42.then spend that money however they wanted. In Bristol the mayor has a
:51:42. > :51:50.little bit more leeway but this is about centralisation of power and
:51:50. > :51:59.decentralisation of responsibility. The Government are saying go and
:51:59. > :52:09.talk to a local commissioning group, but it is the Government to have
:52:09. > :52:09.
:52:09. > :52:17.centralisation of power. I think parties have failed to realise the
:52:17. > :52:24.way power has become centralised. It is a really radical shift. In
:52:24. > :52:30.Sweden 80% of citizens only pay taxes to local Government. Here it
:52:30. > :52:33.is nothing like that. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. The
:52:33. > :52:35.new mayor of Bristol, George Ferguson, is promising to give away
:52:35. > :52:39.�12,000 of his salary, that's �1,000 a month. It follows the
:52:39. > :52:42.decision by the council to pay him �65,000 a year, about the same as
:52:42. > :52:47.an MP. The trouble is, many people expect politicians and councillors
:52:47. > :52:57.to work on our behalf for next to nothing. Here's Paul Barltrop.
:52:57. > :52:59.
:52:59. > :53:06.Bristol's new mayor is adamant, he's not in it for the money.
:53:06. > :53:09.would say I am going to read the chamber until a decision is made.
:53:09. > :53:19.He stepped out as councillors made him the West's second highest paid
:53:19. > :53:21.
:53:22. > :53:27.local politician, earning �65,000. With a salary like that there will
:53:27. > :53:33.probably never be a shortage of people wanting to be mayor but
:53:33. > :53:35.council chambers are often dominated by older people. The most
:53:35. > :53:38.recent census found the South West had England's oldest councilors.
:53:39. > :53:42.Nearly a quarter were over 70. Most are retired. Only 16% have full-
:53:42. > :53:45.time jobs. Allowances vary enormously. At the upper end are
:53:45. > :53:50.big unitary authorities. Wiltshire and Bristol pay councillors just
:53:50. > :53:58.over �11,000. At the bottom end are small district councils. Cotswold
:53:59. > :54:02.pays 4,000. While in West Somerset, it's just �2,700. So it's unusual
:54:02. > :54:12.to find someone like Simon Killane. The Wiltshire councillor has both a
:54:12. > :54:12.
:54:13. > :54:17.demanding job and young children. It is extremely difficult for me to
:54:17. > :54:26.do what I do with the council. The system has really no place for
:54:26. > :54:29.those people, middle to low income with children and nine to five jobs.
:54:29. > :54:37.To get to numerous daytime meetings he uses up annual leave. He admits
:54:37. > :54:42.his career loses out, as do his wife and kids. It has an effect on
:54:42. > :54:48.your family because when you are passionate and you push and push
:54:48. > :54:53.you have a situation where you have no time to spend with your family.
:54:53. > :54:58.I was home for five minutes last night, just time to grab a shirt
:54:58. > :55:00.and get out again like I came in. The challenges of being a
:55:01. > :55:03.councillor were investigated by a committee of MPs. To attract
:55:03. > :55:11.younger people they suggested changes that could push up pay
:55:11. > :55:16.levels. Out canvassing is another atypical councillor. It is very
:55:16. > :55:21.difficult for councillors to take a boat on raising their own pay and
:55:21. > :55:24.conditions. There are alternatives. Joe Harris is just 19. Things like
:55:24. > :55:33.career and kids lie in the future. He doesn't complain about
:55:33. > :55:41.Cotswold's lowly allowance or the variable workload. It is a big
:55:41. > :55:51.commitment and you are told about that when you get elected. They say
:55:51. > :55:54.
:55:54. > :55:58.you can put as much into it as you want. I to cooked in a good amount,
:55:58. > :56:02.three days in the amount of hours by comparison. I think that pays
:56:02. > :56:05.off. In November Joe Harris helped tackle the floods in Cirencester.
:56:05. > :56:08.He and many others are busy this weekend dealing with the cold snap.
:56:08. > :56:18.There are times, say councillors, when their money really doesn't
:56:18. > :56:21.
:56:21. > :56:31.matter. Money going to the victims of the cups, what does this amount
:56:31. > :56:33.
:56:33. > :56:39.of money say about our politicians? -- cuts. I do not think the money
:56:39. > :56:43.is the problem, it is the timings of the council meetings. The guy in
:56:43. > :56:49.the video of news that Wiltshire council with the daytime meetings
:56:49. > :56:57.is having to use up all his holiday town to attend these meetings, I
:56:57. > :57:07.think that is where the have to have a look. If you peer a big
:57:07. > :57:07.
:57:07. > :57:14.salary would you get a better calibre of person? Most places do
:57:14. > :57:22.not have executive responsibility for running the city. What really
:57:22. > :57:25.matters is what time the meetings are held. If you want people who
:57:25. > :57:32.are a cross section of population you have to make sure it is a time
:57:32. > :57:38.when people can attend who are of working age. I simply could not
:57:38. > :57:43.continue taking time off from work when I was in that position. Let us
:57:43. > :57:49.be sensible about it. If we want people going to meetings and
:57:49. > :57:55.attending to their duties, working with local people during the
:57:55. > :57:59.working day, they have to be remunerated for it. People go to
:57:59. > :58:06.work to pay for things and if we need them to do stuff we need to
:58:06. > :58:14.renew many them sensibly otherwise you end up with a large percentage
:58:14. > :58:24.of retired people who have the time to do it. Have you got something
:58:24. > :58:24.
:58:24. > :58:30.against the over 70s? Absolutely not, the maker tremendous community
:58:30. > :58:39.-- a tremendous contribution to but to get other people with a
:58:39. > :58:45.different understanding. I think it is about the relevance of the
:58:45. > :58:51.meetings, the time of the meetings. If you can make the council
:58:51. > :58:59.meetings talk about matters that matter at to a cross section, money
:58:59. > :59:02.is so relevant. Some wanted an increase of �20,000. In true
:59:02. > :59:10.coalition spirit neither of us participated in that and I think
:59:10. > :59:20.sensibly so. Isn't it because you are worth it? I find it a rewarding
:59:20. > :59:25.
:59:25. > :59:30.job anyway. Thank you for joining us. It's time now to take a look at
:59:30. > :59:33.the political stories of the week in our 60 second roundup. Bristol
:59:33. > :59:38.councillors got a big cheer from football fans on Wednesday as they
:59:38. > :59:41.approved plans which should mean Rovers getting a new stadium. But
:59:41. > :59:45.the news that Sainsbury's will build on their old site hasn't been
:59:45. > :59:49.so well received by nearby traders. But there was all-round
:59:50. > :59:53.condemnation of an online comment by South West MEP Graham Watson.
:59:53. > :59:55.His tweet: Al-Qaeda 1, David Cameron 0, was called sick and
:59:55. > :00:01.offensive by party leader Nick Clegg. He quickly apologised and
:00:01. > :00:06.deleted the tweet. Calmer conditions for Stroud MP Neil
:00:06. > :00:09.Carmichael who's just been to the Antarctic. Days later he talked in
:00:09. > :00:12.Parliament about the visit as he led a debate on his private members
:00:12. > :00:14.bill to boost protection for the continent. And a former health
:00:14. > :00:19.minister is proposing that owners of hospitals like Winterborne View
:00:19. > :00:29.should be liable for prosecution where things go wrong. Paul Burstow
:00:29. > :00:34.
:00:34. > :00:41.has introduced a bill. This new law would act as a deterrent forcing
:00:41. > :00:49.week providers to pull their socks up. That was a rather cold week
:00:49. > :00:59.that has gone by and let's pick up on one of those stories. The MP to
:00:59. > :01:00.
:01:00. > :01:06.tweeted about Alcan leader one, David Cameron 0. How daft is that?
:01:06. > :01:14.I was coming back from London on the train when I saw it on my eye
:01:14. > :01:24.pad and I hope it was not Graham. He realised it was a big mistake
:01:24. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:28.and what realised -- what he did when he realised was to apologise.
:01:29. > :01:38.Treating is the equivalent of broadcasting and that is the
:01:39. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:46.equivalent of seeing it on this programme. It was daft and he
:01:46. > :01:50.apologised. I am surprised politicians allow other people to
:01:50. > :01:59.post on their behalf on their accounts. Twitter can be helpful
:01:59. > :02:04.but it can also cause other problems. I do the do It
:02:04. > :02:11.considering the mind feels that are dear? I held out for ages hoping it
:02:11. > :02:15.would go away. It is interesting to see what other politicians are up-
:02:15. > :02:20.to- and any opportunity to keep in touch you welcome. You have not to
:02:20. > :02:27.get too obsessed with social media and forget to go out and talk to
:02:27. > :02:32.people. OK, that is where we have to leave it. That is it from us in
:02:33. > :02:41.the West for it this week now we can return to London and Andrew
:02:41. > :02:51.Neil. You can e-mail us if you have anything to comment on. You can
:02:51. > :03:02.