:01:20. > :01:30.The government department or where spending is booming. And the
:01:30. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :39:38.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2287 seconds
:39:38. > :39:41.Thanks Andrew - welcome to Sunday Politics in the West with me, Steve
:39:41. > :39:44.LeFevre, in the hot seat while David's somewhere hotter. Talking
:39:44. > :39:50.of which - the climate and the economy may be wintry here, but the
:39:50. > :39:53.hotspot for government spending is overseas. We travel to Gambia with
:39:53. > :39:57.a Wiltshire MP and debate the big increase in the development money
:39:57. > :40:00.we're putting towards poorer countries. With me are two
:40:00. > :40:03.politicians, both with an international perspective. Jack
:40:03. > :40:06.Lopresti comes from an Italian immigrant family - he's now the
:40:06. > :40:08.Conservative MP for Filton and Bradley Stoke. And Marvin Rees has
:40:08. > :40:13.studied at Yale and travelled extensively - most recently he was
:40:13. > :40:17.Labour's candidate for mayor in his home city of Bristol. First to the
:40:17. > :40:22.big political story not just of the past week, but probably of the next
:40:22. > :40:32.five years. David Cameron's pledge to have an in-out referendum on
:40:32. > :40:33.
:40:33. > :40:38.Europe. This is the hokey cookie referendum, where do you stand on
:40:38. > :40:41.it? I think he gave a very good speech. If you look at the
:40:41. > :40:49.political world in the last 20 years, the pressure has been
:40:49. > :40:54.building to give the British people another save. -- another say. I
:40:54. > :40:57.think a referendum at some stage was inevitable so I'm glad we now
:40:57. > :41:00.have a timescale and the programme and a commitment that if you vote
:41:00. > :41:05.Conservative in the next election you will get a chance to vote on
:41:05. > :41:10.that. There will be a referendum if he is Prime Minister. Do people
:41:10. > :41:14.know what they are voting for? think that is one of the challenges.
:41:14. > :41:19.The concern is this creates more instability, uncertainty, which
:41:19. > :41:24.isn't good for business, not good for our need to attract inward
:41:24. > :41:32.investment. Without that certainty, it was perhaps an unwise time to
:41:32. > :41:36.say it and an unwise declaration to make. Uncertainty and debate for
:41:36. > :41:41.another five years. I am not sure it is something that is at high on
:41:41. > :41:45.people's agenda. Business people seem to enjoy it. There was a
:41:45. > :41:49.litter in the Times the other day, some business people wrote and said
:41:49. > :41:52.it they were happy that the referendum was happening. One of
:41:52. > :41:57.the signatories runs a local company, it is an issue that has
:41:57. > :42:01.been gaining traction on the doorstep in recent years. There is
:42:01. > :42:06.uncertainty about the European Union at the moment anyway, is the
:42:06. > :42:11.euro going to survive, or what shape will it be in, more fiscal
:42:11. > :42:16.control, tighter management of the European economies. I think it is a
:42:16. > :42:24.good opportunity to try and get the best deal for Britain and put it to
:42:24. > :42:27.the people. I also think we have promised that if you vote
:42:27. > :42:34.Conservative, I will be surprised if Labour don't make a similar
:42:34. > :42:37.promise. The question is how did you get that best deal for Britain,
:42:37. > :42:44.because our interests are tied in with a strong Europe. The question
:42:44. > :42:51.is, what is the best case Britain can take to negotiate that stronger
:42:51. > :42:57.Europe? And negotiating an exit is not the best policy. Or we will
:42:57. > :43:00.have five years to discuss this! We may live in an age of austerity,
:43:00. > :43:02.but one area of government spending has gone on rising - international
:43:02. > :43:06.development. Britain is pledged to increase aid to the world's poor,
:43:06. > :43:10.though critics say now is not the right time. One MP who's committed
:43:10. > :43:13.to the cause is Claire Perry of Devizes. She's just spent a week
:43:13. > :43:17.living without electricity or running water in Africa. Laura
:43:17. > :43:25.Lyons reports. From winter in Wiltshire to the
:43:25. > :43:29.heat, sights and sounds of Africa. Devizes MP Claire Perry and her 13-
:43:29. > :43:37.year old daughter Eliza spent a week in Gambia. They were amazed at
:43:37. > :43:46.the reception they got. They stayed with locals, experiencing life as
:43:46. > :43:50.they lived it. I haven't had a bath in hot water for a week, I washed
:43:50. > :43:55.my hair in a bucket. When you have to go and get water from a well,
:43:55. > :44:00.every drop a third of the Wash in has to be carried back on Sunday's
:44:00. > :44:03.head. It does make you think a bit about your resources. She paid her
:44:03. > :44:06.own way, keen to see the work of the Marlborough charity linked to
:44:07. > :44:13.this community for 30 years. Back home and the contrast between the
:44:13. > :44:17.two countries was clear - and not just in their climate. I just think
:44:17. > :44:21.it brought home to me how incredibly lucky we are to live in
:44:21. > :44:25.a democracy, with a rule of law, with the the judicial challenges
:44:25. > :44:28.they have at the moment, in a country where you can turn on a tap
:44:29. > :44:31.and good clean water. She also wanted to gauge the impact of aid.
:44:32. > :44:34.She officially opened a new market hall, built with help from the
:44:34. > :44:42.Wiltshire charity. As one of the world's poorest countries, Gambia
:44:42. > :44:46.also gets development aid from Europe. In was overwhelming, it was
:44:46. > :44:50.beautiful, it was saddening to see wonderful children with so little.
:44:50. > :44:54.It was frustrating because the whole issue of how you deliver
:44:54. > :44:58.international aid in a way that helps people rather than create
:44:58. > :45:02.dependency was there, but overall it was the most friendly, beautiful
:45:02. > :45:05.place I have ever visited. But it's not just one-way - the twinning
:45:06. > :45:14.brings many Gambians to Wiltshire. So before she went there was plenty
:45:14. > :45:18.of advice for the MP. One thing I will always you proud of is the
:45:18. > :45:24.religious tolerance of people in Gambia. Our community spirit is
:45:24. > :45:28.very strong. That is why when you are poor in the Gambia, you still
:45:28. > :45:36.have a roof over your head and you still have something to eat and you
:45:36. > :45:39.still have something to do and somewhere to go, because a brother
:45:39. > :45:44.somewhere, ACAS in somewhere, will always be willing to share the
:45:44. > :45:49.little he has with you -- our cars in it somewhere. For Claire Perry
:45:49. > :45:52.and her daughter, Gambia left a lasting impression. A think it was
:45:52. > :45:58.a sense of community and structure and values that some might say we
:45:58. > :46:02.have lost and we are worse off for it. How life is very different, but
:46:02. > :46:05.some of those messages are very good ones of the people to see.
:46:05. > :46:07.She's confident the help given here has made a real difference.
:46:07. > :46:14.Ensuring Britain's growing aid budget is well-spent everywhere
:46:14. > :46:24.will be much harder. Well, joining us is the Marlborough GP who set up
:46:24. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:31.the link with the Gambia, Nick Maurice. You said last year it
:46:31. > :46:34.nobody wants to see any reduction in armed forces, so why are we
:46:34. > :46:40.protecting spending on international development, which
:46:40. > :46:43.has seen a 30,000 service jobs lost. I think what we have done in
:46:43. > :46:47.international development for the last decades in the UK, we can be
:46:47. > :46:51.proud of the generosity of the British taxpayer and the good work
:46:51. > :46:56.we have done, I think aid spending has gone up by over a billion. My
:46:56. > :47:02.problem is that we are pledged to increase that by another 3 billion
:47:02. > :47:06.the next couple of years whilst in the week where the promise says set
:47:06. > :47:10.-- Prime Minister says we have to be deployed in Africa and continue
:47:10. > :47:17.the fight against Al-Qaeda and extreme terrorist groups, we are
:47:17. > :47:21.making 5000 troops redundant, while cutting the defence budget and it
:47:21. > :47:24.disproportionately increasing the aid budget. The first
:47:24. > :47:29.responsibility of any government his defence of the realm and the
:47:29. > :47:33.security about people. What we have spent so far is fantastic, we can
:47:33. > :47:36.continue to do their body disproportionate increase over the
:47:36. > :47:40.next couple of years while we are cutting defence is something I am
:47:40. > :47:44.uncomfortable with. It is a phenomenal amount of money. We can
:47:44. > :47:50.talk about whether it is going up or not because we have present our
:47:50. > :47:54.commitment to good to be 0.7%... But you have to understand, aid is
:47:54. > :47:59.not just a moral case, it is a key part of our foreign policy to stop
:47:59. > :48:04.political stability overseas, when you get too hot beds for terrorism,
:48:04. > :48:07.for Migration, I used to work for an aid agency years ago, we were
:48:07. > :48:10.looking at countries where people were turning to the production of
:48:10. > :48:17.drugs because they didn't have viable alternatives to make a
:48:17. > :48:21.living. It is not a question of what we delays and nice things...
:48:21. > :48:29.This is also about British interests overseas, it is a key
:48:29. > :48:33.part of that. But it is where the money goes. Aid can transfer cash,
:48:33. > :48:36.all very well helping the people who really needed in the film, but
:48:36. > :48:40.is the money actually going there? It is the increase, it has been
:48:40. > :48:47.increased by over a billion. We are putting troops numbers, the Home
:48:47. > :48:51.Office budget, is it sensible on a strategic basis to increase the aid
:48:51. > :48:55.budgets are disproportionately while making soldiers redundant?
:48:55. > :48:58.Having set up that link, when we see what has happened over there,
:48:59. > :49:03.it is a two-way street. It is not just the money going into places
:49:03. > :49:07.like Gambia, it is what we can get back from there. I think it is true
:49:07. > :49:13.to say that we have learnt as much from the relationship we have had
:49:13. > :49:16.with the Gambia as people there have learnt from us. We have
:49:16. > :49:21.exchange 1600, particularly young people, between our two communities,
:49:21. > :49:24.we have them coming to visit us, learning from our way of life just
:49:24. > :49:32.as we have young people from Marlboro and a white districts
:49:32. > :49:37.going out to the Gambia, working alongside Gambians on projects --
:49:37. > :49:43.wide districts. I was delighted when Claire Perry agreed to come
:49:43. > :49:50.and spend a week in that community, and experience first hand up what
:49:50. > :49:54.development aid can be about. a big price to pay what we hear
:49:54. > :49:59.about what people are living on, I'll be getting our money's worth?
:49:59. > :50:04.Of course we are. It is and how are our own self-interest. The wide
:50:04. > :50:11.disparity between the very rich and the very poor, the greater the
:50:11. > :50:17.conflict is likely to break out. I don't think it is either or,
:50:17. > :50:22.defence spending, the two things are absolutely related. My very
:50:22. > :50:25.strong view is the more we can assist and work alongside, and I
:50:25. > :50:32.stress alongside, people in so- called developing countries, the
:50:32. > :50:35.better. When I was last in the US, one of the meetings I had took me
:50:36. > :50:40.by surprise. It was meeting a couple from the US Army. They were
:50:40. > :50:45.in Afghanistan, they were involved in forestry, this was aid work, it
:50:45. > :50:51.was about helping farmers take care of the forests so they could take
:50:51. > :51:00.care rather than be seduced by the Taliban. It is not just morals come
:51:00. > :51:03.it is a self interest. Power to the people. It was once a battle-cry
:51:03. > :51:05.for revolutionaries, but in recent years it's been a call to arms for
:51:05. > :51:07.the Conservatives. From the "Big Society" to localism, David
:51:07. > :51:09.Cameron's talked repeatedly about devolving decision-making down. One
:51:09. > :51:13.important change has been encouraging neighbourhoods to set
:51:13. > :51:16.out their own plans. But does it really work? Paul Barltrop reports.
:51:16. > :51:23.It's easy to say in opposition - before becoming Prime Minister,
:51:23. > :51:26.David Cameron talked a lot about empowering local people. That same
:51:26. > :51:30.approach lies behind our plan to encourage people to come together
:51:30. > :51:36.in neighbourhood groups so they can work together to make life better.
:51:36. > :51:38.We are going to give communities the chance to take control What we
:51:38. > :51:42.got was the Localism Act, allowing the creation of so-called
:51:42. > :51:47.Neighbourhood Plans. It'll revitalise local democracy and put
:51:47. > :51:50.power back where it belongs - in the hands of the people. But swap
:51:50. > :51:55.the Westminster hothouse for the cold West country and things look
:51:55. > :52:00.rather different, particularly to the people of Malmesbury. What
:52:00. > :52:03.happens in these fields is a big test of government policy.
:52:03. > :52:06.Developers want to build 180 houses here, Wiltshire council has said no,
:52:06. > :52:11.but what's most significant is that locals have got together and become
:52:11. > :52:17.among the first in the land to produce a Neighbourhood Plan. Under
:52:17. > :52:20.new rules that should mean they have more control over development.
:52:20. > :52:24.They're not saying no to any development in their own, beautiful
:52:24. > :52:29.back yard. It's just they have a different view of where houses
:52:29. > :52:38.should be built. It's all been set out in a 100-page Neighbourhood
:52:38. > :52:42.Plan worked up over many months by local residents. Of workshops and
:52:42. > :52:45.reduce, I think that makes it sound good. They had to look at
:52:45. > :52:52.everything from national and local planning strategies to human
:52:52. > :52:58.rights' rules. It's been a mammoth task. This is heavy duty volunteer
:52:58. > :53:02.work, it is not floating about in meetings, it is heavy duty, at your
:53:02. > :53:06.desk, in front of your word processor, writing document,
:53:06. > :53:10.reading planning documents, studying, trying to understand to
:53:10. > :53:16.stop it is one of the hardest things I have ever done to stop we
:53:16. > :53:21.have done absolutely everything and we can. If we are not allowed to go
:53:21. > :53:25.forward with our plan, it would make a mockery of the government's
:53:26. > :53:29.policy. Because we can't possibly do any more, so it if it doesn't
:53:29. > :53:38.work for us, it is not going to work for any body! They'll soon
:53:38. > :53:42.find out. It is 26 that we originally started from. This week
:53:42. > :53:46.they came face to face with the developers at a planning inquiry.
:53:46. > :53:51.An inspector will decide whose plans come out on top - after the
:53:51. > :53:54.evidence has been heard and tested by lawyers. It is daunting for the
:53:54. > :53:59.people, the residents who have never been involved in this kind of
:53:59. > :54:03.process before. They're coming to almost a judicial process, being
:54:03. > :54:06.cross-examined, being pushed and pushed, which is the job of the
:54:06. > :54:09.lawyers, and that is an experience for local residents who feel
:54:09. > :54:13.passionately about what they want for their communities but aren't
:54:13. > :54:16.used to that very bureaucratic legal system. Winning this appeal
:54:16. > :54:20.isn't all. For their neighbourhood plan to take effect, these
:54:20. > :54:25.residents must also get it approved by a local referendum. Only then
:54:25. > :54:28.may there be a bit more power to the people.
:54:28. > :54:33.We're joined by someone who knows all about this - Alison Bromilow
:54:33. > :54:40.runs a Neighbourhood Planning Network here in Bristol. Thank you
:54:40. > :54:48.for joining us. It looks incredibly hard work. The Eighties, both -- it
:54:48. > :54:52.is, people have been putting hours and weeks, people went for the same
:54:52. > :54:57.system in Bristol, for two years, they haven't been getting to the
:54:57. > :55:03.stage yet, it is an enormous commitment. This is a group of
:55:03. > :55:07.people who know what they're doing, they have applied themselves, you
:55:07. > :55:11.have got to know about be you law, you have to know about strategies,
:55:12. > :55:18.core strategies, 100 page documents, is this how localism it works?
:55:18. > :55:22.is not just the planning, it is the whole business of running a project,
:55:22. > :55:29.organising your time, programming it, organising volunteers, never
:55:29. > :55:32.nut job. Working out how to communicate and to consult with the
:55:32. > :55:36.public, it is not just you sitting in a room, you have to bring your
:55:36. > :55:42.whole community along, otherwise it will get thrown out at referendum
:55:42. > :55:47.staged to stop is this what the government means by localism?
:55:47. > :55:55.about empowering people, making sure they are part of the process.
:55:55. > :56:00.It can seem a lot of work. You can use local groups like your town
:56:00. > :56:04.council and neighbourhood group as a conduit. I think it is great that
:56:04. > :56:08.people come to surgery and say, we don't feel part of the process,
:56:08. > :56:12.people don't listen to us, this would be a great way when it gets
:56:12. > :56:16.going to actually empower people to get involved in local decision-
:56:16. > :56:20.making. Can this work through communities right across our
:56:20. > :56:27.region? De always a challenge if when institutions say they are
:56:27. > :56:31.going to empower people but come across the threshold. It is not
:56:31. > :56:36.empowered to people have to jump through hoops, we have seen it
:56:36. > :56:40.repeatedly as well. What I'm hearing is that there is a real
:56:40. > :56:45.danger would you could end up with the most advantaged communities,
:56:45. > :56:48.with great resources, being able to navigate these bureaucratic
:56:48. > :56:52.nightmares where is the most disadvantaged are left behind, not
:56:52. > :56:55.having as much of a voice. So it is critical to say we are going to
:56:55. > :56:59.give a voice to local communities but we have to be real about
:56:59. > :57:05.looking at the processes they have to go to and the support will be
:57:05. > :57:09.offering them up. You have the communities department to give you
:57:09. > :57:17.a hand at Ayr. If there is a frail little guidance here, we make it up
:57:17. > :57:20.as we go along. -- very little guidance. We have the planning
:57:20. > :57:23.network, all the groups have got together, Bristol is tighter
:57:23. > :57:27.different from the parish plans because we don't have parishes, so
:57:27. > :57:32.we don't have a precept, none of the money comes to the community,
:57:32. > :57:35.aid ghost of the local planning authority. So we have to work to
:57:35. > :57:40.the local planning authority to get money raised at various stages in
:57:40. > :57:44.order to continue our way through the process, and it is a lot of
:57:44. > :57:49.stuff for people to get on board and have to learn. You have really
:57:49. > :57:54.got to go for it, you have to want to have the skills we have seen, it
:57:54. > :58:00.isn't going to happen. People do feel passionate about this,
:58:00. > :58:04.Planning in their local areas, I agree broadly about it is a
:58:04. > :58:09.question of people having the resources, I represent an area of
:58:09. > :58:15.pounds and Paris is, so there is another layer which could help,
:58:15. > :58:20.this is an early stage of this process. You said localism is an
:58:20. > :58:24.allusion, do you think that? said it could be. It depends on
:58:24. > :58:29.what we are talking about. Government institutions can speak
:58:29. > :58:33.with forked tongues. If you are going to say it, you have to mean
:58:33. > :58:38.it, back it up with the resources and we have to look at how the
:58:38. > :58:41.processes at work, do they exclude people? Thank you. It's time now to
:58:41. > :58:51.take a look at the political stories of the week in our 60
:58:51. > :58:52.
:58:52. > :58:56.The Conservatives are losing members as MPs prepare to vote on
:58:56. > :59:00.controversial plans for gay marriage. The chairman in Somerton
:59:00. > :59:05.and bream quit, claiming them it would be more resignations. Almost
:59:05. > :59:09.all the people you talk to feel the same way, not necessarily to the
:59:09. > :59:13.point of resignation, but there is an enormous feeling of anger and
:59:13. > :59:18.frustration. The Mayor of Bristol City was relieved after recruiting
:59:18. > :59:24.three more councillors did cabinet. He found him so stretched after
:59:24. > :59:28.trying to cover three portfolios. The new line-up is temporary. There
:59:28. > :59:36.was one of Oktay Mahmuti, Lib Dem campaigning paid dividends as they
:59:36. > :59:40.held on to the seat of... If this Bristol MP get his way voters will
:59:40. > :59:46.in the future be younger. His backbench motor was supported in
:59:46. > :59:56.the Commons but it may stop there. The Prime Minister is supposed to
:59:56. > :59:57.
:59:57. > :00:01.bodes for 16 and 17-year-olds. -- votes. A busy week. His 16th too
:00:01. > :00:08.young to vote? I have got a 16- year-old boy, and an 18-year-old
:00:08. > :00:12.daughter. I am comfortable with my daughter voting, not my son at
:00:12. > :00:18.probably. We talk about politics, she takes a genuine interest, I am
:00:18. > :00:22.not sure that at 16, you cannot buy tobacco, alcohol, stand for office,
:00:23. > :00:26.I am not so sure about 16. It is all about getting political
:00:26. > :00:30.majority and education, knowing about politics, that is the idea?
:00:30. > :00:35.I would be supported by a vet, I think it is an investment, I think
:00:35. > :00:39.it is about engaging more people in politics. That is about the
:00:39. > :00:43.responsibility of politicians and broadcasters as well, in the way
:00:43. > :00:48.they tell stories but maybe we can talk about that off-air! Always
:00:48. > :00:54.comes down to the media! How would it change the political landscape,
:00:54. > :00:59.it you had 16 and 17-year-olds, do you think it would make politicians
:00:59. > :01:07.think more about what they're doing? It is not obviously a
:01:07. > :01:11.parallel. We try and engage with all levels, I'm sure. We have to. A
:01:11. > :01:16.16-year-old today will be 18 in a short space of time. I'm sure you
:01:16. > :01:20.can find 28-year-olds who sit on and play stations all day and are
:01:20. > :01:26.politically unengaged. I think it would draw people into the process
:01:26. > :01:34.and give people an opportunity in schools to start with some hard
:01:34. > :01:40.issues. It is important to talk about children -- talk to children
:01:40. > :01:50.of all ages about politics, it is whether you can make a judgment at
:01:50. > :01:51.
:01:51. > :01:58.16, to cast of Brake. A lot of them are switched on. At all stages...
:01:58. > :02:05.I'm sure my son isn't typical of all 16 year-old! I was being ironic.
:02:05. > :02:12.I'm just beginning to think about that now. Thank you to you both.
:02:12. > :02:19.Good to have your company here. That is just about it for this week.