:01:21. > :01:24.In the West, who gets to choose those who'll hold the safest seats
:01:24. > :01:34.in Parliament? Some say picking the lucky candidates should be done by
:01:34. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :42:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2463 seconds
:42:37. > :42:42.ordinary folk - not just the party Welcome to the programme here in
:42:42. > :42:52.the West. Coming up: The MPs with a job for life and without any
:42:52. > :42:58.
:42:58. > :43:04.That's coming up, but firstly, to our political class room, where
:43:04. > :43:14.some of us struggled to get an O- level. John Glenn, and the Labour
:43:14. > :43:20.Mark Dempsey then 0 Swindon. Welcome to U-boat. -- welcome to
:43:20. > :43:26.you both. Michael Gove made a huge U-turn this week. Do you ever think,
:43:26. > :43:29.what is going on? I think Michael Gove is an extremely brilliant man
:43:30. > :43:37.and Education Secretary. I think the U-turn is the gloss the media
:43:37. > :43:41.want to put on it. He consulted on it, there been tweaks, and what
:43:41. > :43:47.he's trying to do is improve the overall reputation and integrity of
:43:47. > :43:53.the qualifications. What he did is trashed the GCSE, and now he is
:43:54. > :43:58.saying, actually, it's fine. think you're making mischief with
:43:58. > :44:01.those words. He said it wasn't fit for purpose. So there are
:44:01. > :44:05.significant reforms we will be taking. These things are difficult
:44:05. > :44:13.to get right. It is right that he consulted teachers, and there are
:44:13. > :44:17.some changes to what he proposed. The key thing is the outcome -
:44:17. > :44:21.Improved qualifications that prospective employers can rely on.
:44:21. > :44:24.So you don't think he made a mess? It would always be ideal if you
:44:24. > :44:31.could get every detail right of every policy first time, but that
:44:31. > :44:37.is not the reality. Let's bring in labour. I'm sure you won't make
:44:37. > :44:43.political capital out of this! He changed his mind, what is wrong
:44:43. > :44:51.with that? I been it was an embarrassing climbdown. He showed
:44:51. > :44:58.have listened to the teachers, the parents. One problem is he's stuck
:44:58. > :45:02.in a bit of a 1920s view of education. Actually, I think you
:45:02. > :45:12.should really be focused on building education systems for the
:45:12. > :45:16.20 twenties. -- 2020s. That is where we should be aiming our
:45:16. > :45:24.education system. Academic standards were quite high in the
:45:24. > :45:29.1920s, actually! Yes, but we need to build an economy for the future.
:45:29. > :45:33.Now, few of us feel completely safe in these days of redundancies, but
:45:33. > :45:39.for some MPs, a job for life is just round the corner. If they get
:45:39. > :45:43.elected to fight one of the West's safe seats, they are quids in. All
:45:43. > :45:47.they have to come -- all they have to do is convince a handful of
:45:47. > :45:52.activists that they are the right person for the job. But some people
:45:52. > :45:58.think that should change. This is Bristol South, one of the
:45:58. > :46:02.safest seats in the West Country. Even in Labour's bad defeat in 2010,
:46:02. > :46:07.they won it comfortably. The MP is departing at the next general
:46:07. > :46:11.election and the real contest to six-seater won't be in 2015. It
:46:11. > :46:16.will take place in the next few weeks, with the choice being made
:46:16. > :46:20.by fewer than 200 people. These are some of them. A South
:46:20. > :46:29.Bristol pub was the venue for this Labour gathering. Any supporter
:46:29. > :46:34.could attend and vote. However, this was not to choose a candidate,
:46:34. > :46:38.it was to pick policies the party should adopt. The idea of having
:46:38. > :46:43.open primaries with all local voters able to take part has won
:46:43. > :46:47.influential backing in labour. Frank Field especially wants them
:46:47. > :46:53.in safe seats. Once the system is under way quickly, the electorate
:46:53. > :47:00.would realise they were offering a big say in the real choice, not in
:47:00. > :47:04.the circus, biting and turning up in a contest that they know before
:47:04. > :47:09.they set out from home who the winner will be. The Conservatives
:47:10. > :47:14.sometimes hold open primaries. In 2010, all voters in the safe seat
:47:14. > :47:21.of Salisbury were invited to the meeting which elected John Glenn.
:47:21. > :47:26.The party went even further in Totnes, Devon. Constituents didn't
:47:26. > :47:31.have to go to a selection meeting. There was a postal vote, and a
:47:31. > :47:35.quarter of electors took part. Political scientist Elizabeth Evans
:47:35. > :47:39.says research suggests it can be good for democracy a. Given the
:47:39. > :47:43.less than 1% of the population is a member of a political party, that
:47:43. > :47:50.is very few people involved in the future politicians who will be
:47:50. > :47:55.sitting in Westminster. So having a primary way you allowing more
:47:55. > :47:58.people to hear the candidate will be, you engage more people in that
:47:58. > :48:03.prose and only be a good thing, given people in the UK are not
:48:03. > :48:06.engaging with formal political parties in the way they used to.
:48:06. > :48:13.Backings are Bristol, the votes had been passed. Labour members will
:48:13. > :48:18.soon meet again to pick a candidate. Ordinary voters and our cameras
:48:19. > :48:22.won't be allowed in. Joining as his mate and Hartley, a Liberal
:48:22. > :48:32.Democrat councillor in Bath and deputy leader of the cancer that
:48:32. > :48:39.
:48:39. > :48:44.the stop -- deputy leader of the council there. Do you share the
:48:44. > :48:49.concern that this method is unhealthy? I think the primaries
:48:49. > :48:54.other way forward. I was selected in an open primary in Salisbury.
:48:54. > :48:58.There were 400 people there, over half those people were not party
:48:58. > :49:01.members. Where seat has been in one party's hands for one time, there
:49:01. > :49:10.is less chance there will be movement at the general election,
:49:10. > :49:15.it is important there will be that selection. Do you think you would
:49:15. > :49:19.not have got selected if you did not have an open primary? That is
:49:19. > :49:23.not for me to say. But over half the people and that Rome were not
:49:23. > :49:26.party members. Of course, when you are an MP, you have to act everyone
:49:27. > :49:30.in the constituency, so it is only right that people who don't
:49:30. > :49:36.necessarily support you have a say in who the candidates is likely to
:49:36. > :49:43.be. It is also about the outcome as well as the process. We need to put
:49:43. > :49:46.the represent back into representative. People saw I was
:49:47. > :49:56.collected -- connected to the community, and I think that's what
:49:57. > :49:58.
:49:58. > :50:03.they wanted. But the Conservatives back in 1950 had 3 million members.
:50:03. > :50:09.Labour had one million. Now, the Conservatives are down to 150,000,
:50:09. > :50:14.tops. There are only a few activists left in party politics,
:50:14. > :50:20.so it does mean you're not really representing anybody apart from
:50:20. > :50:24.then. I think you're right and you see people starting a career in
:50:24. > :50:27.private school, going on to university, to work at Conservatory
:50:27. > :50:33.Central Office, and then into Parliament without any real
:50:33. > :50:43.experience. That leads to MPs who are out of touch and distant from
:50:43. > :50:50.the community. The Lib Dems don't have many say seats, do they? --
:50:50. > :50:58.safe seats. I think power needs to be in their hands of as many people
:50:58. > :51:01.as possible. If there are marginal seats, people can decide to
:51:01. > :51:08.recurrent democratic process, but this issue is more about tackling
:51:08. > :51:12.it the safest seats that the two larger parties have. At least the
:51:12. > :51:17.Lib Dems and the Conservatives have embraced this idea. Labour have not.
:51:17. > :51:23.I think Labour have always been at the forefront of modernising
:51:23. > :51:33.Parliament. We're the first black MP, the first openly gay MP. 33% of
:51:33. > :51:39.our MPs are women, only 15% of the Conservatives are. I think there
:51:39. > :51:44.are a selection processes have changed, so anybody can put...
:51:44. > :51:48.do the trade unions have such a big role? They don't. They do -
:51:48. > :51:54.massively. They shouldn't have a monopoly on the selection of Labour
:51:54. > :51:57.candidates. The Lib Dems and the Conservatives in the coalition
:51:57. > :52:03.document said they would pay the 200 primaries in safe seats, and
:52:03. > :52:08.that promise has been dropped quietly. Why is that? It cost
:52:08. > :52:13.�40,000 per seat to do a postal priory, and I suspect some of the
:52:13. > :52:17.cost put pressure on that. The next best thing is to have an open
:52:17. > :52:21.primary way you are not a member of the political party, as happened in
:52:21. > :52:27.Salisbury. That has to be better than having a closed-shop
:52:27. > :52:30.arrangement they you see with Labour. We must move on. More of
:52:30. > :52:35.you contacted your MP about this issue than anything else recently -
:52:35. > :52:41.gay marriage. The vote went through and exposed deep divisions within
:52:41. > :52:49.society and the Conservative Party. But will the bill to deliver the
:52:49. > :52:54.quality it promises? And at what price for the Conservatives?
:52:54. > :52:57.What I would say from colleagues on -- to colleagues on all sides who
:52:57. > :53:00.are opposing what we're trying to achieve today it is please have
:53:01. > :53:05.some empathy for what your fellow citizens have been through.
:53:05. > :53:11.Equality is not something that can be delivered partially. It is
:53:11. > :53:16.absolute. An impassioned plea from Bristol's first openly gay MP, on
:53:16. > :53:21.the day the personal became political. But will gay marriage
:53:21. > :53:25.really be on an equal footing? Generally, I am pleased about it.
:53:25. > :53:30.At his offices in Bristol, as he is working on the next issue of Viz
:53:30. > :53:34.magazine. He is in a civil partnership, and welcomes the bill,
:53:34. > :53:39.with one cabbie at. I'm a bit concerned with the legislation as
:53:39. > :53:46.it stands. They still haven't dealt with this issue of adultery. At the
:53:46. > :53:53.moment, I still couldn't see my partner if he were to have an
:53:53. > :53:57.affair with someone else. There is not for equality in that sense.
:53:57. > :54:04.Adultery is grounds for divorce if it is committed with someone of the
:54:04. > :54:14.opposite sex. So not much use the game married couples. One MP who
:54:14. > :54:14.
:54:14. > :54:22.abstained this week shed these concerns. -- not much use for gay
:54:22. > :54:27.married couples. I am bigger concerns for the way the Bill was
:54:27. > :54:31.laid out. There are issues with it, I'm not sure that it will be equal.
:54:31. > :54:36.They inevitably will be important distinctions between same-sex and
:54:36. > :54:41.opposite sex marriages. So, could some married couples be more equal
:54:41. > :54:46.than others? Some politicians want to keep things as they are to avoid
:54:46. > :54:50.confusion and changing the nature of marriage. This ludicrous
:54:50. > :54:56.situation underscores why otherwise provision of civil partnerships of
:54:56. > :55:02.nearly a decade ago was made. To ensure that same-sex couples can
:55:02. > :55:06.make an equally valid commitment in law, receiving all the legal rights
:55:06. > :55:13.and privileges conferred by marriage, but it would have to
:55:13. > :55:17.remain different in name. Equality, then - just under different labels.
:55:17. > :55:22.What went equal is the political fall-out. The Prime Minister faces
:55:22. > :55:26.dissension on his doorstep and even resignations. I don't speak but the
:55:26. > :55:31.chairman, I know many keel and very angered, as I do, about this issue.
:55:31. > :55:41.Chiefly because, and sat in only, because of the impact its having on
:55:41. > :55:45.
:55:45. > :55:50.our volunteers and members. -- and saddeningly. In the end, the in
:55:50. > :55:54.quality -- the equality enshrined in this Bill may be partial, but
:55:54. > :56:04.enough for some. And too much of others now divorced from a party
:56:04. > :56:07.
:56:07. > :56:15.they helped to elect. My guests are here to discuss that. -- Nathan
:56:15. > :56:25.Hartley is still here with us. What do you think of this development?
:56:25. > :56:29.
:56:29. > :56:37.was delighted. We need to it allow gay people to get married. You are
:56:37. > :56:40.a gay man? No, I am not. I am a heterosexual Christian but a strong
:56:40. > :56:46.believer in equal rights for all people, which is part of the
:56:46. > :56:49.inspiration behind setting up this group. John, would you like to
:56:49. > :56:53.explain to gay people watching this programme why they shouldn't have
:56:53. > :57:00.the same rights as you? I believe they do have the same rights, that
:57:00. > :57:07.is why Parliament brought in the civil rights partnership. There's
:57:07. > :57:13.never been a suggestion that there on UN -- that there are not equal
:57:13. > :57:18.rights under law. If there is no difference, why bother opposing it,
:57:18. > :57:25.if it is just a word? And I think it is important that this is seen
:57:25. > :57:32.as being about protecting marriage. Marriage is distinct, it involves a
:57:32. > :57:37.certain things. You will not actually have equality of treatment
:57:37. > :57:42.under this proposed legislation. Adultery will not apply in the same
:57:42. > :57:47.way. If you remove the notion of fidelity in marriage, then it
:57:47. > :57:52.undermines marriage. And you think the Western world can't find a way
:57:52. > :57:58.around that? Well, it seems Parliament has passed the
:57:58. > :58:01.legislation, and you have to accept that. But my contention is the
:58:01. > :58:11.label of marriage is diminished, because it when in the same thing
:58:11. > :58:12.
:58:12. > :58:21.that it does at the moment. -- it won't mean. It's not just about
:58:21. > :58:28.love and commitment. Belgium has had equal same-sex marriage the 10
:58:28. > :58:32.years and there's been no attack on heterosexual marriages. Now this
:58:32. > :58:36.battle has been one, and it looks almost certain it will be passed,
:58:36. > :58:41.how long before you campaign for gay marriages to take place in the
:58:41. > :58:49.Church of England? Not long at all. We are frustrated the Church of
:58:49. > :58:54.England have a get-out clause that it will be illegal. I know a number
:58:54. > :58:59.of ministers who are pro gay marriage and their various
:58:59. > :59:03.frustrated -- they are very frustrated. But this was one of the
:59:03. > :59:13.concessions, that because will absolutely not be made to marry gay
:59:13. > :59:14.
:59:14. > :59:19.people. -- that vicars. A lot of parishes in rural areas have a lot
:59:19. > :59:23.of control over what they do. They can set their own church policy in
:59:23. > :59:27.terms of whether they marry divorcees or not. So I think they
:59:27. > :59:32.should also be entitled to make the decision as to whether they allowed
:59:32. > :59:35.to people of the same sex to get married in their churches.
:59:35. > :59:39.Conservatives are leading social change in this country! I think
:59:39. > :59:45.they have shown they are still deeply divided. This is exactly the
:59:45. > :59:53.right thing to do. Why didn't you bring it in before 2010? Well, you
:59:53. > :59:59.bought in civil partnerships. Your party when it was last in
:59:59. > :00:04.government had section 28, which was an utterly repugnant
:00:04. > :00:14.homophobic... Don't bring up ancient history. It's not that long
:00:14. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:19.ago! Your party is split down the scenes over this. -- seams. It is
:00:19. > :00:24.absolutely the right thing to do, everybody should be able to
:00:24. > :00:27.celebrate love. I got married last year - the best day of my life, and
:00:27. > :00:34.everybody should be able to celebrate their love through
:00:34. > :00:40.marriage. But people have a right not to approve of it without being
:00:40. > :00:44.they are marginalised and victimised as well, do you think?
:00:44. > :00:54.respect the views of people with fake, but they should not enable
:00:54. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:09.discrimination. -- people with faith, but faith should not enable
:01:09. > :01:14.discrimination. Do you think you're on the wrong side of mystery? In 10
:01:14. > :01:22.years, perhaps people will look back and say, it is like you voted
:01:22. > :01:27.the slavery. That is a very unfair comparison. His time to step into
:01:27. > :01:34.the 21st century. There are lots of questions that have not been
:01:34. > :01:43.answered. Time now to take a regular look at the rest of the
:01:43. > :01:48.The commission of their Avon and Somerset Police continues her bumpy
:01:48. > :01:53.ride in office. A police and crime a panel almost derailed her plans
:01:53. > :01:56.to freeze what we pay the police from the council tax pot. The
:01:56. > :02:01.commissioner campaigned to freeze the tax, but hinted she would have
:02:01. > :02:06.to raise it in future years. Millions of pounds are on their way
:02:06. > :02:11.to improve flood defences. Hundreds of homes across the rage and were
:02:11. > :02:16.affected by torrential rain and late last year. -- across the
:02:16. > :02:18.region. Anti-war campaign is prevented from
:02:18. > :02:22.joining a campaign in Gloucestershire against the Iraq
:02:22. > :02:25.war whenever legal battle against police. They were on coaches
:02:25. > :02:29.stopped from reaching the protest in 2003.
:02:29. > :02:34.And a former guest on this show, Amanda Ramsey, who could fight
:02:34. > :02:44.Bristol South a Labour next election settled a hacking case
:02:44. > :02:51.
:02:51. > :02:55.One story which wasn't there but dominated the national agenda is
:02:56. > :02:59.what went on amid Staffordshire Hospital, fortunately not a
:02:59. > :03:07.hospital in our region. But do you fear we may have a similar story
:03:07. > :03:12.somewhere here in the West Country? A I desperately hope not. It shows
:03:12. > :03:22.since tragic -- some tragic cases. Despite all the Investment we put
:03:22. > :03:22.
:03:22. > :03:31.in as a Labour government, you need the management in place in order to
:03:31. > :03:34.make sure hospital functions properly. I be Labour and deserve
:03:34. > :03:40.some credit for pumping lots of money into the NHS, but money needs
:03:40. > :03:50.to be spent wisely. Be issued this week has really thrown into a
:03:50. > :03:58.
:03:58. > :04:05.focused the quality of care. -- the issue this week. We need to have an
:04:05. > :04:13.inspectorate would Teague back and not look at the quality of care.
:04:13. > :04:16.And -- inspectorate with teeth. To this point, we have not had such an
:04:16. > :04:21.inspectorate, we have focused on targets, and that was manipulating
:04:21. > :04:25.the way that hospitals were run. We need to recognise that our
:04:25. > :04:31.constituents and the people that use our hospitals want high quality
:04:31. > :04:34.of care, and that is where things went wrong. Would Labour now say,
:04:34. > :04:40.no more managers, and hospitals should be managed and run by
:04:40. > :04:43.clinicians? No, I think you need managers in place. It is absolutely
:04:43. > :04:49.crucial to have managers in place to make sure these incidents don't
:04:49. > :04:52.happen. But you also need the doctors and nurses in place. I
:04:52. > :04:57.guess I am worried the big top-down reforms the Conservatives are
:04:57. > :05:00.bringing in will bring greater disruption to the NHS. I been we
:05:00. > :05:05.need stability and to make sure the care people are getting is top
:05:05. > :05:08.class. We have to leave it there. Thank you very much for coming in.
:05:08. > :05:17.They are good friends really! I'm just saying that, they're probably