:01:27. > :01:30.shooting of thousands of badgers. The Government says it will reduce
:01:30. > :01:40.the number of cows being slaughtered because of TB but farmers and
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :37:33.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2152 seconds
:37:33. > :37:37.the Sunday Politics here in the West. Coming up: We are days away
:37:37. > :37:41.from the first shots being fired in a cull of badgers. The Government
:37:41. > :37:45.says killing them will help stop the spread of TB to cattle so they'll be
:37:45. > :37:51.shot in two trial zones in Somerset and Gloucestershire. But with
:37:51. > :37:55.animals rights campaigners against it, will it turn into badger wars? A
:37:55. > :37:59.farmer and a protestor will be going head to head later in the programme.
:37:59. > :38:01.But first, let's welcome two politicians to our set. They are the
:38:01. > :38:04.Conservative MP in the Cotswolds, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, and for
:38:04. > :38:14.Labour, Glyn Ford, who was a member of the European Parliament for 25
:38:14. > :38:16.
:38:16. > :38:26.years. Let's talk about Europe, first of all. Geoffrey, is all this
:38:26. > :38:31.banging on about Europe in the public interest? The UK Independence
:38:31. > :38:37.party vote has focused everybody's minds, particularly the
:38:37. > :38:46.Conservatives, as to how this might affect things next year and the
:38:46. > :38:52.general election. Is it another Conservative civil war in the
:38:52. > :39:02.offing? There is no civil war! The party are not clear about what
:39:02. > :39:04.
:39:04. > :39:10.policies they want. What way would you vote? At the moment, if there is
:39:10. > :39:16.no negotiation, I would probably vote to come out. I don't know why
:39:16. > :39:21.he should stay on. I am involved in writing a book at the moment saying
:39:21. > :39:28.the problem with Europe is too much of a Tory Europe. I say we need a
:39:28. > :39:34.very different Europe that ends austerities. For his Europe, fine!
:39:34. > :39:42.For the Europe I would like to see, people will want to stay in. What
:39:42. > :39:51.this is about is saving David Cameron's career. He wants a
:39:51. > :39:56.referendum in 2015. That's what it's about. If you're serious, do it
:39:56. > :40:03.now! Why hasn't it become a much loved institution in this country:
:40:03. > :40:11.The European Parliament? We don't expect every local institution to be
:40:11. > :40:18.loved, do we? May be respected because we do make decisions that
:40:18. > :40:28.shape peoples lives and the difference between where the
:40:28. > :40:31.political centre of gravity is does make a difference. If you want a
:40:31. > :40:34.different Europe, vote on another way.
:40:34. > :40:38.The Government's cull of badgers is due to get underway very soon and
:40:38. > :40:41.the first animals to be shot will be here in the West Country. Two zones
:40:41. > :40:44.have been selected to try out the scheme and they are in Somerset and
:40:44. > :40:47.Gloucestershire. But do the arguments for a cull stack up? We'll
:40:47. > :40:52.be debating that shortly. First, here's Paul Barltrop.
:40:52. > :40:57.Diseased and doomed. It's a dozen years since David Barton's farm near
:40:57. > :41:07.Cirencester was first afflicted by bovine TB. But here, as elsewhere,
:41:07. > :41:07.
:41:07. > :41:13.it's getting worse. This week, two more tested positive. I have been
:41:13. > :41:17.doing this for ten, 11 years. When I have a lorry turn up taking all
:41:17. > :41:20.these cars of mind that I have been breeding for years, that's a real
:41:20. > :41:23.pain. He invited in the media on Friday to show how farmers suffer.
:41:23. > :41:28.Also on the guest list were local councillors, among whom opinion
:41:28. > :41:31.seems to be hardening against Government policy. The cull
:41:31. > :41:34.continues to face considerable political opposition. This week, it
:41:34. > :41:36.was once again debated by Gloucestershire County Council. They
:41:36. > :41:39.voted that they didn't want it taking place on council-owned land
:41:39. > :41:44.and called on the Government to concentrate on alternatives like
:41:44. > :41:47.vaccination and improved biosecurity. In the Chamber, there
:41:48. > :41:57.was much sympathy for farmers but more doubt than ever that shooting
:41:57. > :42:01.badgers is the answer. It's important to put a marker down that
:42:01. > :42:05.we believe the coal is the wrong way of going about this problem.
:42:05. > :42:08.Vaccination is the way forward and we want to send a clear message out
:42:08. > :42:11.to the Government to that end. Science is central to this argument.
:42:11. > :42:14.Britain's biggest ever culling trial took place a decade ago in the West.
:42:14. > :42:18.10,000 badgers were killed. In the end, scientists concluded culling
:42:18. > :42:23.wasn't worth it. But a change of Government, and lasting benefits
:42:23. > :42:33.from those trials, brought a change of tack. 100,000 badgers will be
:42:33. > :42:34.
:42:34. > :42:40.killed for a reduction in bovine TB of 12-16%. Having looked at all the
:42:40. > :42:49.evidence, I am utterly convinced that badger control is the right
:42:49. > :42:58.thing to do. But MPs were not persuaded. In October, they voted to
:42:58. > :43:02.abandon the cull. Can we have an indication from the Government that
:43:02. > :43:05.the Government will go back and look again at the whole policy of the
:43:05. > :43:08.badger cull and respect the democratic voice of this Parliament?
:43:08. > :43:12.But ministers can - and have - ignored the vote. The shooting of
:43:12. > :43:16.badgers could start within days. The benefits to cattle could take years
:43:16. > :43:19.to emerge. Joining us is John Hore, who's a
:43:19. > :43:29.farmer and NFU spokesperson in the West, but not from the cull zone,
:43:29. > :43:36.
:43:36. > :43:43.and Jay Tiernan from Stop the Cull. How do you plan to stop the coal?
:43:43. > :43:49.work week in, week out to stop hunts from a distance, and we will try and
:43:49. > :43:57.stop the marksman by using light and sound. That sounds pretty
:43:57. > :44:04.intimidating! It's not meant to be intimidating. Isn't it about going
:44:05. > :44:11.into a pub and saying, no 1's going to get hurt if you do as we say?
:44:11. > :44:20.It's about trying to stop badgers from being shot in a culvert should
:44:20. > :44:28.not be happening. I shouldn't have too organise this campaign. What do
:44:28. > :44:35.you feel about that? As farmers, we have been given the go-ahead by
:44:35. > :44:39.government. What is being proposed is totally legal. I just hope that
:44:39. > :44:44.the anti-coal protesters remain on the legal side of the law. They have
:44:44. > :44:54.said they will but they are talking about direct action. Intimidation
:44:54. > :44:55.
:44:55. > :44:58.comes in all forms, doesn't it? That is a great concern to farmers. TB is
:44:58. > :45:05.out of control to such an extent this is something we have to go
:45:05. > :45:14.ahead with. This is the only option on the table at the moment. But it
:45:14. > :45:19.is not that effective. We would dispute those figures of 10-15%.
:45:19. > :45:28.That is relating to the trials that were done. Since they were done, the
:45:28. > :45:32.areas have been increased, so we would expect a much better result
:45:32. > :45:41.than 17%. Shouldn't risk -- shouldn't you respect the views of
:45:41. > :45:46.people who work the land? Maybe they should respect scientists wishes. I
:45:46. > :45:54.have been told there are not even any scientists and deaf at the back
:45:54. > :46:02.of the coal. There are no scientists behind it, Parliament doesn't want
:46:02. > :46:07.it. As far as I can see, it is the NFU and big business pushing through
:46:07. > :46:15.something that is not wanted. They have to be seen to be doing
:46:15. > :46:19.something. But no one kills badgers for fun. If you look on Facebook,
:46:19. > :46:29.there are many people on pro-badger cull groups who are looking forward
:46:29. > :46:30.
:46:30. > :46:35.to shooting them. If there was a better way, do you think as farmers
:46:35. > :46:42.and politicians we would adopt that way? This is the only thing on the
:46:42. > :46:46.table at the moment. Vaccination is probably ten years of way. I am in
:46:46. > :46:52.favour of the coal because those figures show there are a large
:46:52. > :47:02.number of farmers who are suffering. It's a real emotional
:47:02. > :47:05.
:47:05. > :47:10.loss when they lose cattle. It's just how effective it is. We believe
:47:10. > :47:15.this will produce a big reduction. Where it has been tried and done
:47:15. > :47:22.properly around the world, it has produced a significant reduction. If
:47:22. > :47:27.this is done properly and allowed to proceed, we will see a significant
:47:28. > :47:37.reduction. It is reasonable to take that point and say, let's just try
:47:38. > :47:39.
:47:39. > :47:47.to zones. The results have shown a reduction. So would going to wipe
:47:47. > :47:57.out all badgers to see if it might work? There is no intention to wipe
:47:57. > :48:01.
:48:01. > :48:06.out all badgers. You don't have many badgers there are! The coal was
:48:06. > :48:11.called off in September, November, because of the new figures of badger
:48:11. > :48:21.numbers. And another a lot of figures came out in February and
:48:21. > :48:25.
:48:25. > :48:35.they were lower. The coal would not have succeeded. Parliament voted
:48:35. > :48:35.
:48:35. > :48:43.against it and yet it is still going ahead. It was an unofficial vote on
:48:43. > :48:50.a Thursday afternoon. On his intimidation point, we will put on a
:48:50. > :48:55.website, to try and intimidate us. This sort of intimidation is
:48:55. > :49:02.unacceptable. I would say to him and his colleagues, this has been
:49:02. > :49:11.decreed by a democratically elected government. Let's see if it works.
:49:11. > :49:21.They will breed again. Over 250,000 cattle have been killed over the
:49:21. > :49:26.
:49:26. > :49:34.last ten years. You can't win on finances. Labour didn't actually
:49:34. > :49:39.tackle this, did it? That's true. That doesn't mean to say we have to
:49:39. > :49:45.follow this. I'm convinced on the economic is an environmental impact.
:49:45. > :49:55.What we're trying to do... I understand farmers are suffering. I
:49:55. > :49:57.
:49:57. > :50:00.live in the Forest of Dean. What I'm suggesting is this seems to be, we
:50:00. > :50:08.have to do something and we're not sure whether this is the right to
:50:08. > :50:18.do. All we are after is a healthy countryside, healthy badgers.
:50:18. > :50:30.
:50:30. > :50:40.will it work? Badgers aren't even going to be tested for TB. The whole
:50:40. > :50:41.
:50:41. > :50:51.thing is a farce! What percentage would be tested? 10%. Of the ones
:50:51. > :50:54.
:50:54. > :50:57.that are killed, you will be able to One of the biggest beasts in the
:50:57. > :51:02.political jungle was in Bristol this week, urging councils to storm the
:51:02. > :51:05.barricades of Westminster in the quest for more money and power. Lord
:51:06. > :51:09.Heseltine was trying to rouse what he called a "peasants' revolt". He
:51:09. > :51:19.thinks it could reverse decades of decline in local government. Here's
:51:19. > :51:19.
:51:19. > :51:23.In the 19th century heyday of local government, your council could do it
:51:23. > :51:33.all: Building the roads, putting in parks, piping your gas and supplying
:51:33. > :51:38.
:51:38. > :51:41.your water. But now, town halls like this one have been reduced in size.
:51:41. > :51:44.The short summary is we've got centralisation on steroids in the
:51:44. > :51:48.sense that central government keeps taking power away from the local
:51:48. > :51:53.level and it's done this over 20 or 30 years now to the point that local
:51:54. > :51:57.government is really a pale shadow of what it used to be in the past.
:51:57. > :52:00.They may be a shadow of their former selves, but councils do still have
:52:00. > :52:08.some important jobs to do, like providing housing and care for the
:52:08. > :52:11.elderly. But as demands in these areas grow, it's becoming a big ask,
:52:11. > :52:21.not least because councils on reducing budgets hold very few of
:52:21. > :52:22.
:52:22. > :52:29.their own purse strings. Local authorities don't have that much
:52:29. > :52:34.freedom to raise their own money. 60% of money is central government
:52:34. > :52:39.grants. There are a an awful lot of rules governing how local
:52:39. > :52:49.authorities raise that money. We would like to see a bit more
:52:49. > :52:50.
:52:50. > :52:58.autonomy for local government. week, the Mayor of Bristol held a
:52:58. > :53:01.summit. The keynote speaker was in a rabble-rousing mood, calling for up
:53:01. > :53:06.to �80 billion of government money to be returned to the regions. But
:53:06. > :53:11.can we, outside of London, be trusted with such sums? The general
:53:11. > :53:13.question about the competence of the localities is a very good one. So
:53:13. > :53:17.what's the solution, more centralism or put right the problem of local
:53:17. > :53:23.administration? My own view, and every international precedent
:53:23. > :53:31.supports that view, you've got to have effective local administration.
:53:31. > :53:40.In the case of Bristol, you need a mayor. Now you've got one, I believe
:53:40. > :53:44.it's having a very salutary effect. What about the cuts? In this
:53:44. > :53:48.five-year period, they are cutting back funding by a third. I don't
:53:48. > :53:56.have any problems about the cuts. If you actually look at the graph, you
:53:56. > :54:05.find this huge explosion under Gordon Brown. We were administered
:54:05. > :54:10.perfectly well before the splurge and we can't afford it. There have
:54:10. > :54:12.to be cuts and the public sector has to face its share of it. Those cuts
:54:12. > :54:16.seem to be hitting the services councils aren't obliged to provide
:54:16. > :54:19.by law the hardest, services like the arts. Some question whether
:54:19. > :54:29.galleries like this one in Bristol should receive a penny of public
:54:29. > :54:31.subsidy when services for vulnerable people are under threat. I used to
:54:31. > :54:35.appear on the television defending the arts for the Arts Council.
:54:35. > :54:38.Someone put up a slide for a care home that's about to close and you
:54:38. > :54:41.thought, "Uh-oh! I'm losing the argument." It's very, very difficult
:54:41. > :54:44.but there are hard arguments about the arts and I think - as Keynes
:54:45. > :54:48.said - poverty of aspiration is as important as the other five giants
:54:48. > :54:51.of physical poverty, and those days, it was seen as up there on a level
:54:51. > :54:54.with public funding for education, of health and all those things that
:54:54. > :54:58.were renewed after the War, but public funding for the arts was seen
:54:58. > :55:02.as important for all of those. God, we've slipped since then! It's about
:55:02. > :55:05.time we went up the agenda again. the future of an increasingly
:55:05. > :55:09.strained local government seems to lie in restoring the glories of its
:55:09. > :55:12.past. Next month, we'll find out if Lord Heseltine's cry to put the
:55:12. > :55:18.regions in charge of billions of pounds of public spending has been
:55:18. > :55:20.taken seriously by Westminster. In the meantime, Westminster has
:55:20. > :55:23.promised to devolve down more borrowing powers. But without a
:55:23. > :55:33.significant transfer back of money and power, our squeezed councils may
:55:33. > :55:34.
:55:34. > :55:44.soon find themselves with a giant So are councillors capable of
:55:44. > :55:47.
:55:47. > :55:57.running bigger budgets? Yes, absolutely. What Michael Heseltine
:55:57. > :56:02.
:56:02. > :56:05.did in the 1980s, these were all done with local partnerships.
:56:05. > :56:15.Councillors are capable of spending more money, but they should not be
:56:15. > :56:21.
:56:21. > :56:29.spending it for the sake of it. is the mentality in Westminster?
:56:29. > :56:33.Each local area is different from the next one. You need to unlock
:56:33. > :56:43.local enterprise and energy to see how you can improve the area.
:56:43. > :56:45.
:56:45. > :56:49.no reason why politics should not be reflected in the local council. I
:56:49. > :56:55.was a local councillor for eight years. We introduced Japanese,
:56:55. > :57:00.Arabic and Russian into the school curriculum. We abolished film
:57:00. > :57:05.censorship. When you do decentralise, people say it is a
:57:05. > :57:15.postcode lottery. You can get this service in Bristol but not in
:57:15. > :57:17.
:57:17. > :57:24.Cheltenham. It is a reflection of different politics. It's perfectly
:57:24. > :57:30.possible for Bristol council to have a different set of policies than
:57:30. > :57:33.what they do in the Cotswolds or Liverpool, Glasgow or Cornwall.
:57:34. > :57:37.better councils will produce more jobs and more investment and a
:57:37. > :57:41.better standard of life for people. And that's democracy.
:57:41. > :57:48.It's been a busy week. Let's take a look at some of the other political
:57:48. > :57:51.stories making the headlines. Things were as heated as in Gordon
:57:51. > :57:55.Ramsey's kitchen when the Bristol Mayor was caught on camera swearing
:57:55. > :58:00.at a member of the public. George Ferguson claims Paul Saville was
:58:00. > :58:09.harassing him so he told him to F off! But Mr Saville says he was just
:58:09. > :58:12.raising a democratic point. I'm not a programme politician and I will
:58:12. > :58:14.occasionally react in what might not be seen as the best way.
:58:14. > :58:17.The family of right-to-die campaigner Tony Nicklinson from
:58:17. > :58:20.Wiltshire have been back to court in a bid to make voluntary euthanasia
:58:20. > :58:24.legal. They hope judges will overturn last year's ruling that
:58:24. > :58:27.blocked him from ending his life with a doctor's help.
:58:27. > :58:29.And Liam Fox, the Conservative MP from North Somerset, has been in
:58:29. > :58:35.court, suing a Dubai businessman who revealed details about his unusual
:58:35. > :58:38.working relationship with his friend Adam Werritty. Dr Fox resigned as
:58:38. > :58:41.Defence Secretary over the allegations.
:58:41. > :58:45.Every member of staff at Wiltshire Council is to be asked if they want
:58:45. > :58:55.to take redundancy. 340 jobs are to go as the council tries to save
:58:55. > :58:55.
:58:55. > :59:05.millions of pounds. Let's pick up on the swearing. Is it
:59:05. > :59:09.
:59:09. > :59:15.ever right for a politicians to use the F word? Occasionally, we get
:59:15. > :59:23.provoked to the extreme! Swearing is never acceptable, but sometimes,
:59:23. > :59:32.it's difficult not to. Have you ever been tempted to do a John Prescott?
:59:32. > :59:40.Very tempted! Why should politicians just sit there and be called scum or
:59:40. > :59:43.whatever by other people? It's not very far between swearing and
:59:43. > :59:50.getting violent. Once you start swearing, you have lost the
:59:50. > :59:59.argument. Easier said than done, but it is incumbent on politicians to
:59:59. > :00:05.set a example. Not a lot of politicians, is there? There's
:00:06. > :00:12.probably less respect now than for a while. People never desperately
:00:12. > :00:16.looked up to politicians in the past, but as a class, no.