:01:13. > :01:16.posterity. A portrait of Labour's Dawn Primarolo is to be hung in
:01:16. > :01:26.Parliament - but should taxpayers money be spent on art when budgets
:01:26. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :37:34.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds
:37:34. > :37:38.the part of the programme that's just for us here in the West. Coming
:37:38. > :37:41.up today. She's made it into the House of Commons hall of fame.
:37:41. > :37:46.Yes, Dawn Primarolo, who's our longest serving MP, is to have a
:37:46. > :37:51.portrait of her hung in Parliament. But at a cost of �12,000, is it a
:37:51. > :37:54.waste of taxpayers' money? Helping us answer that are two local
:37:54. > :38:00.politicians who, if they're lucky, may themselves one day make it onto
:38:00. > :38:10.the walls of the Houses of Commons. They are the Lib Dem Stephen
:38:10. > :38:23.
:38:23. > :38:26.Williams and Labour's Sophy Gardner. Former Wing Commander, Sophy?
:38:26. > :38:30.work a lot with veterans now in my current work, and I have worked
:38:30. > :38:32.alongside reserves both deployed on operations overseas and the UK.
:38:32. > :38:42.Government is trying to beef up the reserves but plugging holes in
:38:42. > :38:45.
:38:45. > :38:48.full-time regulars. Yes, they are looking for 30,000 reserves, and it
:38:48. > :38:51.appears to be to plug a gap more than anything else. I don't think
:38:51. > :38:53.there is any problem with a large number of reserves, but it takes
:38:53. > :39:03.awhile to get them and trained. Would Labour reverse the spending
:39:03. > :39:04.
:39:04. > :39:11.cuts? What I would like to see is a more organised way of working with
:39:11. > :39:14.the civilian sector. They have just decided to keep the chief of staff
:39:14. > :39:20.for another year, so there is somebody who understands the issues
:39:20. > :39:30.who will see that through. Stephen, you have never fancied joining up?
:39:30. > :39:36.
:39:36. > :39:39.am sure the forces would want people to join up some sort gesture.
:39:39. > :39:45.true that the politicians who would send our troops to war have no
:39:45. > :39:52.military experience? Isn't it a good thing that most of our politicians
:39:52. > :39:56.have never had to go to war themselves. I think that is a trial
:39:56. > :39:58.within Europe that we have a generation of politicians for whom
:39:58. > :40:08.war is not a personal experience. Royal Wolverhampton NHS Trust
:40:08. > :40:25.
:40:25. > :40:29.triumph. -- triumph. We will move The Government overruled its own
:40:29. > :40:32.experts this week and decided to outlaw this stuff - it's a herbal
:40:32. > :40:35.stimulant called Khat. If you chew on it, it gives you a high - and
:40:35. > :40:39.it's used widely by Somali men. Indeed, it's on sale in grocery
:40:39. > :40:42.shops in Bristol. But while that is being banned - other drugs that
:40:42. > :40:44.young people can buy are openly on sale. They're called "legal highs".
:40:44. > :40:47.So why not ban them too - Here's Paul Barltrop.
:40:47. > :40:51.Two types of shop. Two types of drug. Two types of Government
:40:51. > :41:01.treatment. This shop in the heart of Bristol's Somali community sells
:41:01. > :41:02.
:41:02. > :41:04.Khat - but not for long. This is the last delivery. So chew as much as
:41:04. > :41:14.you can. It's a centuries old tradition. When
:41:14. > :41:16.
:41:16. > :41:18.chewed, it has a mild stimulant effect. I have been cheering almost
:41:18. > :41:28.for the last 25 years. I was self-employed, family man with six
:41:28. > :41:28.
:41:28. > :41:35.children. -- I have been cheering. But if this is banned, it will
:41:35. > :41:41.criminalise our lot of our people. am outraged. I'd shoo this every
:41:41. > :41:45.day, once or twice a week. Like alcohol, it can be linked to
:41:45. > :41:47.social problems. Some Somalis have long called for a ban. But the
:41:47. > :41:57.government's own expert advisers investigated, and earlier this year
:41:57. > :42:00.
:42:00. > :42:07.they came out against. We ship -- we decided Khat should become a legal
:42:07. > :42:11.substance. But there's no doubt that harm that
:42:11. > :42:14.can be caused by legal highs. They were linked to 40 deaths last year.
:42:14. > :42:17.The problem is the vast range of chemicals being created - often
:42:17. > :42:27.getting round the law by stating that they're not for human
:42:27. > :42:29.
:42:29. > :42:30.consumption. We don't sell them, but when it leaves the shop, people are
:42:30. > :42:33.free to do whatever they want with the product.
:42:33. > :42:41.At last week's Glastonbury Festival, selling legal highs was prohibited.
:42:41. > :42:49.But their use is widespread - and sometimes worrying. Mindbenders, I
:42:49. > :42:55.will have a chilled out one. They are pills about that big. I wouldn't
:42:55. > :42:57.recommend them. People think because they are legal they are safe. I
:42:57. > :43:00.don't think they are. In fact, the event may help bring
:43:00. > :43:10.more bans. The festival's temporary police station included a lab
:43:10. > :43:14.testing drugs brought in from the site. We have identified it as a
:43:14. > :43:16.slight chemical modification on a readily -- already illegal drug.
:43:16. > :43:19.So, different drugs, different rules. These chemical stimulants
:43:19. > :43:21.will stay legal unless found to be dangerous. This herbal stimulant
:43:21. > :43:25.found not to be dangerous will soon be banned.
:43:25. > :43:28.To tell us about her experiences of the drug Khat is Egeran Gibril who's
:43:28. > :43:38.a Somali community worker. She's our longest serving West
:43:38. > :43:49.
:43:49. > :43:59.Because it is very expensive, which causes family disruption. So people
:43:59. > :44:04.
:44:04. > :44:07.think, well it is not good in both -- group -- it is not good for the
:44:07. > :44:15.person to chew, it is not good for their health. You can tempt the
:44:15. > :44:25.people, to use Khat, it is affecting their head. When you see a young
:44:25. > :44:32.
:44:32. > :44:35.person using a lot of Khat, with a lot of sugar, it harms their teeth.
:44:35. > :44:45.They claim that they feel happier and better themselves, but actually
:44:45. > :44:46.
:44:46. > :44:56.it causes them aggressive depression. A lot of things are not
:44:56. > :44:59.
:45:00. > :45:02.good for us, but we still choose to do them. Yes, but when you know the
:45:03. > :45:05.problem that it is causing, there is a lot of research being done and you
:45:05. > :45:15.have the choice, like cigarettes for example. We know the harm they cause
:45:15. > :45:17.
:45:17. > :45:27.us, but the Khat, there is not the research. Actually I would like
:45:27. > :45:27.
:45:27. > :45:36.people to see the impact that it has two them. Steven, as a liberal,
:45:36. > :45:46.would you ban Khat? No, I think some things do need to be controlled if
:45:46. > :45:56.they are proven to cause harm to themselves. I am in favour of having
:45:56. > :45:56.
:45:56. > :45:59.as many restrictions as possible on smoking, because it will shorten
:45:59. > :46:09.your life span. The medical evidence on Khat is that it does not have any
:46:09. > :46:10.
:46:10. > :46:13.medical side effects or ill effects at all. There is a 96 page report
:46:13. > :46:15.drawn up by the advisory Council on the misuse of drugs, the body that
:46:15. > :46:25.advises the Home Secretary, and they say emphatically that Khat itself is
:46:25. > :46:35.not harmful. That is not your experience, is it? No, they are not
:46:35. > :46:44.
:46:44. > :46:46.disclosing the information that they use Khat, therefore they give them
:46:46. > :46:51.antidepressant tablets and they take them with the Khat. The combination
:46:51. > :47:00.costs them great mental health problems. What about the Government
:47:00. > :47:10.banning Khat but not banning these so-called legal highs? You have not
:47:10. > :47:11.
:47:11. > :47:13.talked at all about actually the importance of education in use of
:47:13. > :47:17.drugs. The Government has cut compulsory education on drugs and
:47:17. > :47:27.alcohol, you might think that would be a more important thing to do.
:47:27. > :47:30.you wouldn't ban it? You would educate people instead? What I am
:47:30. > :47:35.talking about is criminalising people without any support, making
:47:35. > :47:45.people into the position when they might become criminalised or put
:47:45. > :48:00.
:48:00. > :48:02.into prison is no... This is the difficulty. At the moment, I
:48:02. > :48:04.understand that costs �3. If anything is criminalised, we know
:48:04. > :48:07.with all other drugs when they are criminalised, the cost will go
:48:07. > :48:09.through the roof. Criminals will get in on the act, lots of Somali young
:48:09. > :48:19.men will end up in prison, and I think the repercussions will be
:48:19. > :48:20.
:48:20. > :49:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds
:49:02. > :49:08.terrible. Yes, because people do not have any alternative to socialise,
:49:08. > :49:11.so this will bring a huge problem to people to come together.
:49:11. > :49:16.And now Labour's Dawn Primarolo is set to make it into the House of
:49:16. > :49:18.Commons hall of fame. She is our longest serving West Country MP. The
:49:18. > :49:22.Speaker's arts committee have decided to commission a portrait of
:49:22. > :49:25.her, with a price tag thought to well over �10,000. But some believe
:49:25. > :49:35.it's a waste of money - and that spending on the arts should be cut
:49:35. > :49:38.back. Charlotte Callen reports. Street art in Bedminster. This area
:49:38. > :49:43.of South Bristol is well known for it's arts scene - the creators of
:49:43. > :49:53.Wallace and Gromit have their headquarters just down the road. And
:49:53. > :49:54.
:49:54. > :49:57.Dawn Primarolo, who's been the local MP since 1987, is a familiar face.
:49:58. > :50:00.That's the local MP. She's retiring at the next election
:50:00. > :50:10.- and fellow MPs have decided her parliamentary career should be
:50:10. > :50:14.
:50:14. > :50:17.recognised with a portrait in parliament.
:50:17. > :50:19.With an estimated price tag of around �12,000, it has led to
:50:19. > :50:25.criticism from some like the taxpayers Alliance, who say it is a
:50:25. > :50:35.waste of money. On a visit to Bristol to celebrate the arts,
:50:35. > :50:39.
:50:39. > :50:41.Labour's Deputy Leader justified the decision. Over the centuries the
:50:41. > :50:44.House of Commons has supported British portrait painters in order
:50:44. > :50:47.to support them, and I can tell you there are hundreds of portraits of
:50:47. > :50:49.men, so if you have a portrait of dawn, good for her and good for us,
:50:49. > :50:52.I think. There's no doubt she's had a
:50:52. > :50:55.prestigious parliamentary career, ending up as the Deputy Speaker -
:50:55. > :51:05.and the longest serving Paymaster General for 200 years. But she
:51:05. > :51:15.
:51:15. > :51:18.started from very different roots. Campaigning for nuclear disarmament.
:51:18. > :51:20.In her early political career, she was known as red Dawn, not just for
:51:20. > :51:23.her love of Bristol city, but because of her left-wing views. Now,
:51:23. > :51:28.after 26 years as an MP, she has herself become part of the
:51:28. > :51:38.establishment. To have her hanging alongside the men in the corridors,
:51:38. > :51:41.
:51:41. > :51:49.I think that is a good thing. disagree. It is ridiculous. I don't
:51:49. > :51:58.think it is a great use of taxpayers money. I don't think it is a good
:51:58. > :52:00.idea spending �12,000. In a time when they are making so many cuts, I
:52:00. > :52:03.don't think they can justify spending �12,000 on a picture of
:52:04. > :52:13.someone! And these chaps - well, they're
:52:14. > :52:18.
:52:18. > :52:21.doing that on the streets of Bristol. Over the past few years,
:52:21. > :52:24.they have cut back on funding for the arts. But you just have to have
:52:24. > :52:32.a look at Wallace and Gromit to see how much the industry means to the
:52:32. > :52:38.city. The calculation is that for every �1 of council investment in
:52:38. > :52:44.the arts, it generates �4 in return. It actually creates jobs, economic
:52:44. > :52:50.tourism, so we don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
:52:50. > :53:00.But will this port could be as popular? The artist has not been
:53:00. > :53:05.
:53:05. > :53:10.commissioned. -- this portrait. Our thanks to Ian, who did this
:53:10. > :53:13.portrait which cost is �10. Joining the debate is Chris Chalkley
:53:13. > :53:21.from the People's Republic of Stokes Croft - a group which promotes arts
:53:21. > :53:31.and culture. Do you think 12 grand on a picture
:53:31. > :53:34.of Dawn Primarolo is justified? think spending on the arts is
:53:34. > :53:44.essential to a healthy culture. And really the debate needs to be where
:53:44. > :53:48.
:53:48. > :53:51.we spend that money. And a portrait? I am not going to fight one way or
:53:51. > :53:54.another, there is a long history of portraiture, but what I would like
:53:54. > :53:58.to have is a debate about how we spend our money locally on local
:53:58. > :54:08.culture. What evidence have you got to say that spending public money
:54:08. > :54:14.
:54:14. > :54:17.and the arts is a good thing? if you look at it from just basic
:54:17. > :54:19.economics, many studies show that if you spend money on the arts, it will
:54:19. > :54:23.be returned to you. What I think is absolutely essential with the arts
:54:23. > :54:29.is that it is the last resort, it is the last area where we hold onto our
:54:29. > :54:36.local culture, and in a world where things are increasingly dominated by
:54:36. > :54:43.globalisation, then this is incredibly important. It is the
:54:44. > :54:46.ideas that come from this sort of stuff that is absolutely essential.
:54:46. > :54:51.On the other hand local authorities have difficult positions about care
:54:51. > :54:57.for old people and housing and all the rest of it. It is not easy to
:54:57. > :55:07.say we should spend money on arts. No, but there is also central
:55:07. > :55:21.
:55:21. > :55:24.Government money, and as many people might know the funding that comes
:55:24. > :55:27.from the centre, about �21 per head, goes into London, and for the South
:55:27. > :55:29.West it is about �3 per head. When we talk about the return we get, it
:55:29. > :55:32.is the economic return but also the community, the culture that comes
:55:32. > :55:35.from it, just the health of society. That is an investment for the
:55:35. > :55:39.future. So it is not spending with no return. How difficult is it to
:55:39. > :55:49.sell to the public the idea that art spending should be protected?
:55:49. > :55:52.
:55:52. > :55:54.disagree that art spending should not be done at all. I personally
:55:54. > :56:00.love looking at paintings, and you can get great pleasure just by
:56:00. > :56:03.contemplating what the artist was going to get across. Most galleries
:56:03. > :56:13.are free, if you go to the National portrait Gallery or the Bristol city
:56:13. > :56:17.
:56:17. > :56:19.Museum. They are paid for by the taxpayer. They are paid for
:56:19. > :56:22.collectively by the public good. In terms of my fellow Bristol MP having
:56:22. > :56:28.her portrait, I think that is fair enough. The Speaker has a fund where
:56:28. > :56:30.the budget is set every year. I showed lots of schoolchildren and
:56:30. > :56:39.pensioners, groups around Parliament every week, and they enjoy looking
:56:39. > :56:42.at the picture gallery of historic politicians. You shall be that bit
:56:42. > :56:50.as well. You have an arts thing going on as well. You brought us are
:56:50. > :56:52.locally decorated teapot. I was involved in the pottery industry for
:56:52. > :57:02.many years, which has basically collapsed over the last 30 years,
:57:02. > :57:12.and we have the Phoenix from the ashes, so these are beautiful china
:57:12. > :57:15.
:57:15. > :57:17.teapot that are decorated by volunteers, and they drive the
:57:17. > :57:27.economics that allows us to paint the walls, which has caused the
:57:27. > :57:33.
:57:33. > :57:35.revival, which means more shops open. We will have a cup of tea
:57:35. > :57:41.later. Let's take a spin through this
:57:41. > :57:44.week's political round-up in just 60 seconds.
:57:44. > :57:54.Ian Liddell-Grainger was in trouble with the Speaker of the Commons this
:57:54. > :57:57.
:57:57. > :58:01.week. I say to the Member for Bridgwater, if you cannot be quiet,
:58:01. > :58:04.get out. The naughty boy got quite a telling off, but it turns out he was
:58:04. > :58:06.wrongly accused of shouting during a speech by the Labour MP Stella
:58:06. > :58:09.Creasy. Co-op have triumphed in the war of
:58:09. > :58:11.supermarkets this week. They won a high court battle that could stop
:58:11. > :58:14.rivals Asda from opening a store in Cinderford.
:58:14. > :58:18.And the war to stop TB in cattle spreading has been stepped up, as
:58:18. > :58:20.the Government announced a 25 year strategy to tackle the disease. The
:58:20. > :58:30.West is high-risk, so there'll be extra measures to stop transmission
:58:30. > :58:31.
:58:31. > :58:33.between cows, which farmers will have to help pay for.
:58:33. > :58:36.And the union representing firefighters in Devon and Somerset
:58:36. > :58:40.says it's "shocked and astonished" at the timing of an announcement of
:58:40. > :58:48.�2.5 million of cuts in the service. Bosses insist lives won't be put at
:58:48. > :58:51.risk. Let's pick up now on unions - and
:58:51. > :59:01.the problems for Labour with Unite. Sophy, what are your links with
:59:01. > :59:19.
:59:19. > :59:21.unions? I was not a union backed candidate in my cell action, which
:59:22. > :59:25.is a couple of months ago, and I won fair and square without that
:59:25. > :59:27.support, so it is not a stitch up, it was not in my case, I do however
:59:27. > :59:29.enjoy and am working closely with the local union representatives.
:59:29. > :59:39.They are representing hard-working people. The Government is making hay
:59:39. > :59:39.
:59:39. > :59:45.out of this, isn't it? I think there is a legitimate thing for the public
:59:45. > :59:55.to worry about, and that is how much influence Len McCluskey is buying.
:59:55. > :59:56.
:59:57. > :59:58.Ed Miliband would not be the leader at all, Labour MPs who my friend
:59:58. > :00:01.voted for his brother, were desperately disappointed when Ed
:00:02. > :00:03.Miliband one, because it was not Labour MPs, it was the unions that
:00:03. > :00:06.got Ed Miliband over the finishing line.
:00:06. > :00:10.That's all we've got time for this week. Thank you to Stephen and to
:00:10. > :00:13.Sophy for joining us. Next week is our final programme of the series
:00:13. > :00:16.before Parliament breaks for the summer recess. We'll have an end of
:00:16. > :00:18.term report for the political parties, and I'll be joined by the
:00:18. > :00:22.Mayor of Bristol George Ferguson and Police and Crime Commissioner Sue