:00:41. > :00:47.Morning, welcome to the veritable Sunday Politics. We have Alastair
:00:47. > :00:52.Charmichael. We'll ask him what Sunday Politics. We have Alastair
:00:52. > :00:56.Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps has that his predecessor Michael
:00:56. > :01:03.Moore hadn't. Ken Clarke just keeps going on and on and on. He'll bang
:01:03. > :01:06.Free of the shackles of Government, former Energy Secretary Chris Huhne
:01:06. > :01:18.Coming up here: Clamping down on illegal immigrants — the man in
:01:18. > :01:36.says we've misunderstood the problem of human trafficking and that men
:01:36. > :01:41.pundits who we try to shuffle out of a job but failed miserably, Mick
:01:41. > :01:50.watt, Miranda Green Andijan an Ganesh. They'll Tweet like mad as if
:01:50. > :01:59.Is Ed Miliband's Labour Party moving chid owe Cabinet reshuffle was seen
:01:59. > :02:07.a a shift to the lot of. Two have announced policy changes which could
:02:07. > :02:13.Pensions Secretary Rachel Reeves says Labour will be tougher on the
:02:13. > :02:16.Tories. While Tristram Hunt says Labour loves Tory-style free schools
:02:16. > :02:25.after all. Here he is on the BBC viewers. If you are a group of
:02:25. > :02:28.parents, social entrepreneurs, teachers, interested in setting
:02:29. > :02:32.parents, social entrepreneurs, school in areas where you need new
:02:32. > :02:34.school place, the Labour Government will be on your side. That's free
:02:34. > :02:40.enterprise and innovation. It will will be on your side. That's free
:02:40. > :02:46.be in areas of need. We have a school places crisis going on. It
:02:46. > :02:59.teachers in these schools. And accountability. What is going on
:02:59. > :03:07.with the Al Madina school is because of terrible mistakes with Michael
:03:07. > :03:10.changed, the change of tone is I'm not sure if the policies have
:03:10. > :03:13.changed, the change of tone is remarkable, both on welfare and
:03:13. > :03:16.changed, the change of tone is schools. A significant change of
:03:16. > :03:24.reshuffle on the Labour frontbench last week was init wered as a purge
:03:24. > :03:31.of Blair rights. It seemed to be a purge of anti-reform thinking.
:03:31. > :03:35.Rachel Reeves was not saying anythi different on substance but saying
:03:35. > :03:41.Labour will be tough than the Tories on welfare. You've seen that clip
:03:42. > :03:47.from Tristram, free schools will be allowed to be set up in areas of
:03:47. > :03:52.need. Greater oversight. But a completely different change of tone,
:03:52. > :03:58.we are on the side of parents and social entrepreneurs who want to set
:03:58. > :04:06.these up. A different change. Why are they doing this? On education,
:04:06. > :04:12.polarised. You've had the Michael department. This weekend, we've
:04:12. > :04:14.polarised. You've had the Michael leaked memos from one of Michael
:04:14. > :04:18.Gove's advisers which are extreme views about the state of education.
:04:19. > :04:25.And on the other side teaching unions. It hasn't led to a healthy
:04:25. > :04:29.debate which represents what parents want out of schools or employers.
:04:30. > :04:33.This is a huge move from the Labour Party to sound more reasonable.
:04:33. > :04:38.This is a huge move from the Labour have been silent on education which
:04:38. > :04:46.is a huge policy area on the left. Is this a focus group-driven change?
:04:46. > :04:52.They've seen the polls. Welfare reforms are hugery popular and free
:04:52. > :04:57.only apiece the focus groups by changing the policy substantially. I
:04:57. > :05:02.always thought a test for this Labour reshuffle was not whether Ed
:05:02. > :05:06.Miliband would promote Blair rights, it is clear he did, it is whether
:05:06. > :05:12.they would be allowed to be Blair rights. When Stephen Twigg carried
:05:12. > :05:16.the education portfolio it was clear his own views were closer to the
:05:16. > :05:21.Government than he was allowed to let on. He was constrained. There is
:05:21. > :05:25.no point of giving Tristram Hunt this job if he is not allowed to say
:05:25. > :05:28.what he thinks. I wouldn't mind betting privately he thinks free
:05:29. > :05:35.schools should be available beyond just areas of need. He hasn't yet
:05:35. > :05:44.defined need. It could be, we've run schools are so bad we need schools.
:05:44. > :05:55.If that is it, it is the same Asics itsing Government policy. In they
:05:56. > :06:00.unsatisfactory that's no different. He wanted to say he was in favour of
:06:00. > :06:05.higher educational standards and rigour, he had to tell the audience
:06:05. > :06:09.he has a Cambridge PhD to attack Michael Gove. That was difficult for
:06:09. > :06:18.Tristram Hunt he had to mention that. Is that worth something, a PhD
:06:18. > :06:24.from Cambridge? Obviously to him it is. He said they would demand proper
:06:24. > :06:34.teaching qualifications. That could teaching? Independent schools do not
:06:34. > :06:39.have to have teachers with formal teaching qualifications. I've never
:06:39. > :06:48.been to one? What about you? That decision by Michael Gove to allow
:06:48. > :06:53.free schools to employ nonunionised and non-trained people, so he has to
:06:53. > :06:58.Watch this space. The dust settled after the party resufficients. Do
:06:58. > :07:10.the Tories look a bit more like Britain. Do the Tories look more
:07:10. > :07:15.#4 With reshuffles, you're never really certain. There's whispers,
:07:15. > :07:22.rumours, guesses. But the only way to know it is underway is keeping
:07:22. > :07:27.beady eyes on a front door. Up until now, the only way we knew who was in
:07:27. > :07:31.and who was out was who came walking down this bit of Downing Street
:07:31. > :07:34.and who was out was who came walking a smile on their face after going to
:07:34. > :07:38.see the boss. The once who are to be sacked, they usually go round the
:07:39. > :07:47.back. Not this time. No, something new alerted us all. The-PM started
:07:47. > :07:51.can't remember a triple decker reshuffle where you've three parties
:07:51. > :07:57.changing ministerial teams at the resufficient happened on Twitter.
:07:57. > :08:04.Not that the press stopped watching the door as well. News was a bit
:08:04. > :08:10.Charmichael replaced Michael Moore, the first to be pounced on. I'm
:08:10. > :08:15.disappointed to be leaving office now but pleased at what I've been
:08:15. > :08:18.able to achieve in the last couple of years. Not as pleased as one
:08:18. > :08:34.imagines as the man receiving the welcome that went on, and on and
:08:34. > :08:42.simultaneously having Jeremy Browne, in a sense seen off the premises of
:08:42. > :08:58.the Home Office in conspiracy to let # Blowing hi Jude through a traffic
:08:58. > :09:02.Democrats. We tend to think they are herbivorous. Sacking a Cabinet
:09:02. > :09:05.Minister, another minister, Jeremy Browne. By lunch time, the Tory
:09:05. > :09:09.ranks were shifting too. The PM Browne. By lunch time, the Tory
:09:09. > :09:12.to boost the numbers of telegenic women walking into Government and
:09:12. > :09:20.turning perceptions around. He tipped a so-called flatcap to men
:09:20. > :09:23.backgrounds with room for some which fitted neither label but are friends
:09:23. > :09:30.of George Osborne. And, all the while, those new Tory ministers
:09:30. > :09:33.of George Osborne. And, all the learning of Labour's changes. Labour
:09:33. > :09:37.too knows the value of new young blood striding into the limelight.
:09:37. > :09:43.Again some with TV experience of that. Tristram Hunt and Gloria de
:09:43. > :09:47.peer row would be hard to describe as hard left. But Blairbrushing
:09:47. > :09:51.peer row would be hard to describe past out of the picture seemed to be
:09:52. > :09:58.the name of the day. Liam Byrne With Diane Abbott also gone, was
:09:58. > :10:00.this really a Blair right cull? It depends what you mean. Blair right
:10:00. > :10:03.used to mean someone who wanted depends what you mean. Blair right
:10:03. > :10:07.Blair to be leader of the Labour Party. Somebody who worked closely
:10:07. > :10:11.with him. Now it means sometimes people who believe in a certain
:10:11. > :10:14.with him. Now it means sometimes of ideologyies or ideas. There are
:10:14. > :10:17.still very much those kind of Blair rights within the party. But we
:10:17. > :10:20.still very much those kind of Blair seeing the group around Tony Blair
:10:20. > :10:27.are not long assassin flew enjoys as they once were. By evening, it was
:10:27. > :10:32.over. New bees were sharing the ministers quietly thanked commits
:10:32. > :10:46.raters. Or -- commiserators. Or ministers quietly thanked commits
:10:46. > :10:51.disified. How much much someone standing here might want it to be
:10:51. > :10:58.the case, you are unlikely to get someone coming out of that do going
:10:58. > :11:04."how could." And running off crying! And the brand, spanking new Scottish
:11:04. > :11:12.Secretary Alastair Charmichael joins us from Orkney on a line that hasn't
:11:12. > :11:17.been used since the fleet was used in the outbreak of World War I! I
:11:17. > :11:21.wasn't around at the time. I'm hearing you loud and clear. Why
:11:21. > :11:25.wasn't around at the time. I'm you agreed to run a department?
:11:25. > :11:30.wasn't around at the time. I'm you wanted to abolish six years
:11:30. > :11:31.wasn't around at the time. I'm Hello? Maybe our connections are not
:11:31. > :11:37.Charmichael. Can you hear me? I Hello? Maybe our connections are not
:11:37. > :11:42.hear you now. There was a nasty second there where you disappeared.
:11:42. > :11:43.Let me try the question again. Why have you agreed to run a department
:11:43. > :11:50.you wanted to abolish six years have you agreed to run a department
:11:50. > :11:54.Because this is the, probably one of the most important jobs in British
:11:54. > :12:00.politics at the moment. To ensure that Scotland remains part of the
:12:00. > :12:06.UK. Even when I was talking about the reconfiguration of rep sen Taigs
:12:06. > :12:10.of Scotland -- representation of Scotland within Whitehall, there was
:12:10. > :12:14.always a job to be done. That is true in spades now. I will focus on
:12:14. > :12:18.making sure the UK Government has a real voice in that debate. What
:12:18. > :12:18.making sure the UK Government has a you that Michael Moore didn't have?
:12:18. > :12:24.Look, I think Michael Moore did you that Michael Moore didn't have?
:12:24. > :12:32.excellent job. The work he did delivering the Edinburgh agreement
:12:32. > :12:40.clear legal and decisive referendum, the work delivering extra powers to
:12:40. > :12:47.substantial piece of work. I'm not friend of mine. I will say that
:12:47. > :12:47.substantial piece of work. I'm not we go forward into this, this is now
:12:47. > :12:52.about the actual debate itself. we go forward into this, this is now
:12:52. > :13:01.will be putting the case, with some passion, I hope, for Scotland to
:13:02. > :13:08.just some abstract debate about nationhood, sovereignty, this is a
:13:08. > :13:16.their livelihoods, the cost of their mortgage. That and an awful lot
:13:16. > :13:24.challenge. I understand that. But if you're being put in there to save
:13:24. > :13:30.the union, every pole has the no -- poll has the no campaign margin
:13:30. > :13:34.alley ahead. Mr Moore was doing pretty well to save the union. I
:13:34. > :13:42.suspect you've been given the job to Scotland? And lieu, you misread
:13:42. > :13:44.suspect you've been given the job to situation if you -- Andrew, you
:13:45. > :13:48.misread the situation new think anybody is going to be the person
:13:48. > :13:50.who will save the union. The people who will save the union are the
:13:50. > :13:54.people of Scotland if they turn who will save the union are the
:13:54. > :13:58.next year and vote to save the union. We have to put the case for
:13:58. > :14:04.that. That is what I will be doing. Look at the position of your own
:14:04. > :14:11.party. You came fourth in the last Scottish parentry elections. You
:14:11. > :14:18.were even behind the Conservatives. The latest poll has you still in
:14:18. > :14:22.fourth. Are you there because you're a bruiser and you will pep up the
:14:22. > :14:25.Liberal Democrats opportunity in Scotland. If I had a pound for
:14:25. > :14:29.everybody to referred to me as being Scotland. If I had a pound for
:14:29. > :14:34.a bruiser, I wouldn't need to be sitting here this morning. I could
:14:34. > :14:38.have retired by now. The truth of this, if I can address it once and
:14:38. > :14:45.for all, I have done probably one of the most complex and subtle jobs in
:14:45. > :14:50.three-and-a-half years, Liberal Democrat Chief Whip in a Coalition
:14:50. > :14:54.survived in that job a week, let alone three-and-a-half years, if I
:14:54. > :14:59.was the sort of person who went around picking unnecessary fights.
:14:59. > :15:04.So, can we just please forget about this business about being a bruiser.
:15:04. > :15:08.As far as the position of the party in the polls, this is true also
:15:08. > :15:11.As far as the position of the party the referendum vote, opinion polls
:15:11. > :15:14.are a snapshot. They are not a prediction of what will happen in
:15:14. > :15:19.the future. I will be out there putting the case. Neither the next
:15:19. > :15:24.election nor the referendum is one or lost yet. One of the things I
:15:24. > :15:32.really want to be guarding against because we are a good margin ahead
:15:32. > :15:40.today, 12 months out from the actual polling day, that it is in the bag.
:15:40. > :15:43.Believe me, Andrew, it is not. As you know, wasn't for the Liberal
:15:43. > :15:52.Democrats. Not just talking about the polls. You came fourth in the
:15:52. > :16:02.You said you were happy to facial ex-Salmond in a TV debade. Should
:16:03. > :16:14.David Cameron face him? I am happy debate. Should David Cameron face
:16:14. > :16:18.him? No, because that allows Alex Nationalists to portray this as
:16:18. > :16:22.him? No, because that allows Alex sort of contest or choice between a
:16:22. > :16:24.vision of Scottish social democracy and English conservativism, which it
:16:24. > :16:30.is not. This is a debate that has to is not. This is a debate that has to
:16:30. > :16:38.be held in Scotland about the future of Scotland amongst Scots. David
:16:38. > :16:43.Cameron has a very important part in Scotland's public life, but he is
:16:43. > :16:47.not Scottish and I think he will accept Commies edit himself in fact,
:16:47. > :16:57.the person who should be debating Darling. He has got a Scottish name
:16:57. > :17:03.wealthiest of Scotland at some stage in the past. Anyway, you described
:17:03. > :17:10.the campaign to keep the union together as lacking passion, were
:17:10. > :17:17.you referring to the campaign or referring to Alistair Darling. I
:17:17. > :17:23.think what I was saying is that referring to Alistair Darling. I
:17:23. > :17:30.we move into this new stage, and Alistair Darling said it himself, we
:17:30. > :17:35.are now campaigning for people Alistair Darling said it himself, we
:17:35. > :17:41.hearts because if you look at the range of papers the Government has
:17:41. > :17:50.published, it is pretty clear the arguments lie in relation to the
:17:50. > :17:55.head. I am not giving up the battle for the hearts and Scotland because
:17:55. > :17:57.there is a good strong case, as somebody who is proud to be Scottish
:17:57. > :18:03.and to be British, for Scotland somebody who is proud to be Scottish
:18:03. > :18:09.remain part of the UK. You come somebody who is proud to be Scottish
:18:09. > :18:14.distilleries and I understand you celebratory drink for your new post.
:18:14. > :18:21.Not a drop has touched my lips. celebratory drink for your new post.
:18:21. > :18:26.supporting local business! I will be making up for lost time on the
:18:26. > :18:28.supporting local business! I will be of November, I will be doing it
:18:28. > :18:34.supporting local business! I will be aid of Macmillan Cancer care and if
:18:34. > :18:39.website, they can donate. It is worthwhile. I cannot think of a
:18:39. > :18:50.better cause. One Cabinet minister who many thought might get Reef
:18:50. > :18:53.better cause. One Cabinet minister Clarke. Welcome to Sunday Politics.
:18:53. > :19:03.minorities, where did you fit in? I minorities, where did you fit in? I
:19:03. > :19:08.would describe myself as the elder statesman, to be polite, but it
:19:08. > :19:11.would describe myself as the elder difficult to replace them. I enjoy
:19:11. > :19:13.it. It is a great privilege to have a role in Cabinet and I will carry
:19:13. > :19:19.on as long as David wants me to a role in Cabinet and I will carry
:19:19. > :19:24.I have seen many reshuffles, they are dreadful and I seem to have
:19:24. > :19:30.survived them so far. Did David Cameron talk to you before this
:19:30. > :19:37.reshuffle? No, he didn't. I would have had expected a phone call,
:19:37. > :19:47.asking, how do you think about stepping down, but he didn't and my
:19:47. > :19:51.role is one of giving my wit and wisdom to the Cabinet and meetings
:19:51. > :19:56.of the Security Council so he has got to put up with me a bit longer.
:19:56. > :20:02.You said you are going to stand again at the next election, why
:20:02. > :20:05.You said you are going to stand you keep going? What do you hope to
:20:05. > :20:11.achieve in politics? I am mostly a political anorak, I have been since
:20:11. > :20:16.I was very small, by the process of politics but the older I get I get
:20:16. > :20:20.governance of the country and at the moment the combination of problems
:20:20. > :20:25.is quite appalling. The difficulty of tackling the modern world is
:20:25. > :20:28.is quite appalling. The difficulty difficult and I find it fascinating.
:20:28. > :20:30.The old argument that attracts every decent person into politics, you
:20:30. > :20:34.might be able sometimes to make decent person into politics, you
:20:34. > :20:37.bit of difference, and I try to decent person into politics, you
:20:37. > :20:40.that. I try not to hark back on decent person into politics, you
:20:40. > :20:43.experience but we will have a lot of tough problems which I think the
:20:43. > :20:50.Conservative Government will have to tackle. You opposed referenda on
:20:50. > :20:56.Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, you were even against one on Britain
:20:56. > :21:03.adopting the euro. It must follow that you are against the referenda
:21:03. > :21:12.on Britain's membership to the EU? I accountable to the long-term and
:21:12. > :21:19.representatives, but this is a minority now and my colleagues have
:21:19. > :21:23.firmly decided a referendum needs to be held to settle the question of
:21:23. > :21:27.Britain's relationship with the European Union which I think is
:21:27. > :21:32.Britain's relationship with the of the most important things in
:21:32. > :21:37.Britain's place in the modern world politicians are able to look after
:21:37. > :21:44.the living standards, the economy, the safety against terrorism. Last
:21:44. > :21:49.the living standards, the economy, summer you said that only extreme
:21:49. > :21:54.nationalists wanted a silly EU referendum. It follows your party
:21:54. > :22:00.must be full of extremely silly nationalists. The people who are
:22:00. > :22:07.desperate to have a referendum are all the people who actually want to
:22:07. > :22:12.referendum will involve the public and people like me have got to get
:22:12. > :22:15.across to the public, don't just feel angry about the last thing
:22:15. > :22:16.across to the public, don't just read in the newspaper about what the
:22:16. > :22:21.commission is or is not doing, do commission is or is not doing, do
:22:21. > :22:29.bear in mind this is our base in the modern world. We happen to be a
:22:29. > :22:35.leading member, almost as valuable and rich as the Americans, from
:22:35. > :22:40.influence in events. That is not just how the politicians get on
:22:40. > :22:47.influence in events. That is not politicians look after us when we
:22:47. > :22:52.spilling over from the Middle East, or we face public services being
:22:52. > :23:00.threatened. You didn't even turn up to vote for the bill which will
:23:00. > :23:04.threatened. You didn't even turn up engagements on the Friday concerned.
:23:04. > :23:07.It seemed to get through without my participation. You didn't want to be
:23:07. > :23:16.seen voting for something your heart Look, many of your colleagues I
:23:16. > :23:24.seen voting for something your heart interviewed say that if the choice
:23:24. > :23:28.was between the state -- the status quo with the European Union and
:23:29. > :23:32.leaving, they would leave. The truth is that you would vote to stay in
:23:33. > :23:41.even on the status quo, wouldn't supporting the EU to leave now if I
:23:41. > :23:45.got chance. I think our economy supporting the EU to leave now if I
:23:45. > :23:54.investment, as in Washington last been if we were outside the EU.
:23:54. > :24:01.investment, as in Washington last week. We are trying to roll forward
:24:01. > :24:05.the prospect of free trade and I have to reassure Americans that
:24:05. > :24:09.the prospect of free trade and I are not likely to leave the EU to
:24:09. > :24:14.That is true but it also needs reform. The cry for reform, which is
:24:14. > :24:22.particularly Germany, is a good reform. The cry for reform, which is
:24:22. > :24:24.Even if David Cameron came back reform. The cry for reform, which is
:24:24. > :24:34.nothing from Brussels, you would still vote to stay in, correct?
:24:34. > :24:39.one which is dwindling in comparison with others, in the modern world it
:24:39. > :24:43.would be dangerous. I also think the dangers of the Middle East and the
:24:43. > :24:54.dangers of some of the countries disengage. I will take that as a
:24:54. > :25:00.strengthen the case, and of some members of the public don't agree
:25:00. > :25:06.persuaded when David delivers his reforms. The latest poll gives
:25:06. > :25:10.Labour a ten point lead over the Tories and the reason why it has a
:25:10. > :25:14.ten point lead is because UKIP are up there with 18% of the vote and
:25:14. > :25:19.ten point lead is because UKIP are the Tory vote has slumped in the
:25:19. > :25:25.Paul to 27%. How would you see off UKIP? By saying you need a strong
:25:25. > :25:30.Paul to 27%. How would you see off and effective Government. We faced
:25:30. > :25:36.terrible problems. Every Government I have been in has been behind in
:25:36. > :25:40.the polls. This Government is not as popular as the previous Government I
:25:40. > :25:42.have served in under the three previous prime ministers. When you
:25:42. > :25:46.get an election, people have to previous prime ministers. When you
:25:46. > :25:53.themselves who do we want to decide the issues of war and peace in this
:25:53. > :25:59.country? Who do we want to get us out of our economic problems. I
:25:59. > :26:03.don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. That generalised stuff will not
:26:03. > :26:07.don't think Ed Miliband is up to it. off UKIP. People will not listen to
:26:07. > :26:11.that. When people answer an opinion poll, they tell you how annoyed
:26:11. > :26:16.that. When people answer an opinion are by something that has recently
:26:16. > :26:20.upset them, but people are more sensible than this. Every Government
:26:20. > :26:27.I have served in has been behind in the polls. At a general election you
:26:27. > :26:36.have to mobilise the public to start thinking, who do we want to govern
:26:36. > :26:44.us? They did take over a calamitous important problems to be decided
:26:44. > :26:49.going forward. UKIP represents anti-immigration, anti-foreigners,
:26:49. > :26:51.anti-Europe, anti-politics but I don't think it will get 18% of the
:26:51. > :27:25.Thank you. Once upon a time, a politician whose career ended in
:27:25. > :27:28.disgrace might choose to lie low for a while, perhaps to spend a bit
:27:28. > :27:30.disgrace might choose to lie low for time tending the tulips and doing
:27:30. > :27:32.the odd bit of charity work. Not Chris Huhne. He walked free from
:27:32. > :27:35.prison only five months ago but Chris Huhne. He walked free from
:27:35. > :27:39.former Energy Secretary is already back in the public eye - a column in
:27:39. > :27:43.the Guardian, a job with a renewable interview. So is he working on a
:27:43. > :27:46.political rehabilitation? Chris Politics. The answer to that is
:27:47. > :27:49.clearly know, and thank you for inviting me back. You have set your
:27:49. > :27:54.career in politics is over so what does the future hold for you? I
:27:54. > :27:57.career in politics is over so what happy doing what I am doing, I am
:27:57. > :28:02.passionate about green energy and climate change, so I am doing things
:28:02. > :28:09.on that front in terms of business non-governmental organisations,
:28:09. > :28:09.on that front in terms of business I am doing a column for the Guardian
:28:09. > :28:13.on Mondays. You obviously get a I am doing a column for the Guardian
:28:13. > :28:20.of material from the Sunday Politics to write about. Have you embarked on
:28:20. > :28:24.political rehabilitation? It was clear from the point of view of
:28:24. > :28:28.political rehabilitation? It was George when I was sentenced, he
:28:28. > :28:32.rehabilitating you, because I had not offended for ten years, it was
:28:32. > :28:38.actually about stopping people like you, Andrew, Ron doing the same
:28:38. > :28:44.thing. It was a deterrent effect for the public. That is I think why
:28:44. > :28:47.thing. It was a deterrent effect for prosecution was brought. I had not
:28:47. > :29:17.offended for ten years on this, rehabilitate yourself in the public?
:29:17. > :29:23.coalition to the bitter end? Or should they re-establish their own
:29:23. > :29:30.Coalition agreement is for the whole Parliament, and the Lib Dems are
:29:30. > :29:33.going to stay, and should stay. What would be a good result for the Lib
:29:33. > :29:40.Dems in 2015? The loss of ten, would be a good result for the Lib
:29:40. > :29:46.interesting election because I think you will have essentially three
:29:46. > :29:54.party leaders, all of whom are negative ratings so it will be a
:29:54. > :30:01.battle between the walking wounded. In those circumstances, in my view,
:30:01. > :30:12.the Lib Dems can come out very well. But you will lose seats, won't
:30:12. > :30:16.the Liberal Democrats do badly in next year's European elections,
:30:16. > :30:16.the Liberal Democrats do badly in could come fourth on fifth behind
:30:17. > :30:25.leadership be in jeopardy? I've could come fourth on fifth behind
:30:25. > :30:30.in countless cycles where we've could come fourth on fifth behind
:30:30. > :30:35.very low poll ratings. The normal pickup to the subsequent general
:30:35. > :30:40.election on average has been 10 percentage points. So he's not in
:30:40. > :30:41.jeopardy? I think Nick will be there at the next general election. I
:30:41. > :30:45.think he'll lead the party into at the next general election. I
:30:45. > :30:48.next general election. I expect we'll do much better than most
:30:48. > :30:52.people think. If we are heading we'll do much better than most
:30:52. > :30:56.another hung Parliament, which is Let's be honest, you'd rather be in
:30:56. > :31:00.coalition with the Labour Party Let's be honest, you'd rather be in
:31:00. > :31:06.have a repeat of the Conservatives? One of the key things I sawed to
:31:06. > :31:10.colleagues, whatever your personal preference, I used to be a Labour
:31:10. > :31:15.Party member, you can derive from that I'm on the left of centre of
:31:15. > :31:20.the party. I always said to my colleagues in the party, it is
:31:21. > :31:23.the we are in politics because we are Liberal Democrats, not because
:31:23. > :31:29.we are either Conservatives or second best Labour. If you don't
:31:29. > :31:33.take that view, you don't have any bargaining position when it comes to
:31:33. > :31:37.coalition. You have to be able, genuinely, to do a coalition with
:31:37. > :31:42.either of the other parties. I understand that, but you'd prefer
:31:42. > :31:46.Labour? Your personal preference really should not come into this. It
:31:46. > :31:53.is about making sure you get the best possible deal for the things
:31:53. > :31:56.you get that with one party rather than another, that's fine. You stand
:31:56. > :31:59.up for Liberal Democrat values, than another, that's fine. You stand
:31:59. > :32:04.for Conservative or Labour second best values. You said you're keeping
:32:04. > :32:10.up your interest in energy matters. Is Ed Miliband right to promise
:32:10. > :32:13.up your interest in energy matters. temporary price freeze? There's
:32:13. > :32:18.up your interest in energy matters. pop ewe louse posturing. It is not a
:32:18. > :32:23.sensible policy. It was tried in California in 2,000 and 2001 which
:32:23. > :32:27.led to blackouts. We had the Prime Minister promising we should sift
:32:27. > :32:34.everybody automatically to the unfortunately we're at the stage in
:32:34. > :32:41.the political cycle where we are getting clap trap. You're against
:32:41. > :32:45.the freeze? It is a bad idea when we are trying to encourage investment.
:32:45. > :32:50.When the market can give us some of the lowest gas and electricity
:32:50. > :32:54.son-in-law of the lowest? Not our base price? The other European Ian
:32:54. > :32:58.prices are only higher because they put a lot more taxes on to it? Our
:32:58. > :33:04.base energy prices are among the highest in Europe? No, if you look
:33:04. > :33:06.at EU comparisons in what goes out to people's households. That's after
:33:06. > :33:10.all the taxes have been put on them? to people's households. That's after
:33:10. > :33:51.green taxes is George Osborne with should no better. One the-hip ok
:33:51. > :34:00.not want it. We do not need it to agreement because the Conservatives
:34:00. > :34:02.not want it. We do not need it to electricity system. It was a revenue
:34:02. > :34:07.raising measure by the Tories. It set off a whole load of hairs about
:34:07. > :34:12.green taxes which are now coming home to roost. Final point to you,
:34:12. > :34:17.wish we'd more time to talk, you're a big supporter of Leveson-style
:34:18. > :34:21.press regulation. Will you stop writing for The Guardian if it
:34:21. > :34:27.refuses to sign up to the Leveson charter? I think that's neither
:34:27. > :34:30.refuses to sign up to the Leveson nor there. The Guardian gives me a
:34:30. > :34:36.up to what you believe in will you up to what you believe in will you
:34:36. > :34:41.support it? No because I'm sure they'll allow me to make that that
:34:41. > :34:45.point. I think newspapers will sign up for it. They've had a collapse in
:34:45. > :34:50.public trust and confidence in recent years. Unparalleled. They
:34:50. > :34:54.need a third party endorsement to say these guys have cleaned up their
:34:54. > :34:59.act. If they are going to get trust haven't signed up, which they won't,
:34:59. > :35:06.you can come back and we'll talk You're watching the Sunday politics.
:35:06. > :35:22.Thank you, Andrew, and welcome to the part of the programme just for
:35:22. > :35:27.us in the West. Coming up today the part of the programme just for
:35:27. > :35:31.on the campaign to reduce the number of immigrants entering the UK. These
:35:31. > :35:36.controversial billboards were signed off by the Forest of Dean MP Mark
:35:36. > :35:38.Harper, who will be telling us why, if they proved to work, they could
:35:38. > :35:45.be back on the streets. Joining if they proved to work, they could
:35:45. > :35:50.Snelgrove, a helper to Gordon Brown at number ten. She's standing again
:35:50. > :35:57.at the next election. And Mark immigration. Mark was born in and's
:35:57. > :36:04.old constituency but moved as soon as possible. It will soon be January
:36:04. > :36:11.and the remaining and Bulgarians will be entitled to come and live
:36:11. > :36:16.here. How many are you expecting? We've been very sensible not to
:36:16. > :36:19.here. How many are you expecting? and make a forecast. The previous
:36:19. > :36:21.government said there would be 13,000 people coming from Eastern
:36:21. > :36:27.Europe but it turned out to be nearly 600,000. There are eight
:36:27. > :36:30.controls at the moment who are all going to take them off at the end of
:36:30. > :36:36.the year. Our advisers said trying to put a number on it was a fool's
:36:36. > :36:41.errand. It's worrying that you have no idea. Romanians can already come
:36:41. > :36:45.here if they are self—employed or come here to study, and they can
:36:45. > :36:51.come here if they are in certain kinds of occupation. They will be
:36:51. > :36:55.able to do other things in the New Year. Interestingly, the most recent
:36:55. > :36:58.numbers of people coming from Europe are not from Eastern Europe but
:36:58. > :37:01.numbers of people coming from Europe other countries like Spain and
:37:01. > :37:06.Portugal staying for longer because there are economy is under such
:37:06. > :37:10.pressure. Wages here are five times what they are in Bulgaria. But there
:37:11. > :37:13.are costs involved in coming and the polling that has been done does
:37:13. > :37:17.are costs involved in coming and the support the contention there are
:37:17. > :37:25.lots of people waiting to come. We've got tougher rules and stuff
:37:25. > :37:31.that claims you can't... But you're would be a guess. We've heard about
:37:31. > :37:36.what was going on at number ten would be a guess. We've heard about
:37:37. > :37:39.Damian McBride. Were you aware of this poisonous activity at the heart
:37:39. > :37:46.of government? Know and I never this poisonous activity at the heart
:37:46. > :37:51.Mr McBride. He had long gone before I got into number ten. Just as we
:37:51. > :37:58.want to concentrate on policy now, it is very important that we get
:37:58. > :38:04.is nasty it is horrible and he got the boot for being like that. Were
:38:04. > :38:10.you covering up for some strange behaviour by Mr Brown and some of
:38:10. > :38:23.his acolytes? Jee, not at all. He absolutely was not. The last year of
:38:23. > :38:28.Miliband is now concentrating on policy renewal and looking at what
:38:28. > :38:34.we can do to help people in the future with things like energy
:38:34. > :38:43.politics is the politics of the Illegal immigrant will find it
:38:43. > :38:46.government is planning to ban their access to health care and housing,
:38:46. > :38:51.stop them driving and clamp down on sham marriages. But critics say
:38:51. > :38:57.stop them driving and clamp down on proposals will turn us all into
:38:57. > :39:02.This is the image the government likes to project — officials taking
:39:03. > :39:07.immigrant. And it's going to get tougher still with the announcement
:39:07. > :39:10.of new legislation. What this bill does is make it harder for people
:39:10. > :39:16.who are here illegally to be able to carry on living here, so access
:39:16. > :39:18.who are here illegally to be able to the things that people use on a
:39:18. > :39:24.licences and bank accounts will become harder under the proposals.
:39:24. > :39:28.Hers is the fifth immigration bill since 2000 and will force those
:39:28. > :39:32.Hers is the fifth immigration bill temporary visas seeking health to
:39:32. > :39:36.pay a contribution. Banks will have to check immigration records before
:39:36. > :39:40.opening accounts. A driving licence will depend on immigration status,
:39:40. > :39:53.as will accommodation and landlords landlords don't know, and how are
:39:53. > :39:58.have the training or the expertise. They're not qualified to do that.
:39:58. > :40:01.What Theresa May seems to be trying to do is turn us into a nation of
:40:01. > :40:08.immigration officers will stop this is wholly wrong. The voters may
:40:08. > :40:15.disagree. Politicians see how UKIP Immigration concerns are large and
:40:15. > :40:22.sometimes exaggerated. A recent Immigration concerns are large and
:40:22. > :40:41.perceived to be immigrants but the official figure is 13%. There we are
:40:41. > :40:47.sensitive for Labour. Chris Bryant visited Bristol on a nationwide
:40:47. > :40:49.sensitive for Labour. Chris Bryant to develop policy. We are not just
:40:49. > :40:55.telling stories. Our cases are different and every case is unique
:40:55. > :41:00.in its own way. He showed sympathy for these asylum seekers. Labour are
:41:00. > :41:08.anxious to prove they have toughened their stance, however. When Poland
:41:08. > :41:09.and Latvia joined the EU, other countries like Germany and France
:41:09. > :41:12.said they couldn't come here to countries like Germany and France
:41:12. > :41:17.from day one. We should have done the same and I think the problem was
:41:17. > :41:20.that because we went alone, it meant everybody from those countries
:41:20. > :41:23.wanted to come here and that did have an effect on people at the
:41:23. > :41:27.lower end of the labour market particularly. Labour haven't said
:41:27. > :41:31.too much about the controversial poster vans which toured several
:41:31. > :41:37.London borrowers this summer, huts wary of public opinion. It's a
:41:37. > :41:44.fantastic idea. We need to clean up the mess. The people who are legally
:41:44. > :41:47.entitled are being deprived of jobs. It's a massive problem but it's
:41:47. > :41:49.entitled are being deprived of jobs. really the way to deal with it.
:41:49. > :41:50.entitled are being deprived of jobs. wouldn't ask a criminal on the side
:41:50. > :41:55.of a van to go to prison. Maybe wouldn't ask a criminal on the side
:41:55. > :42:00.isn't the way to do it but everyone has to abide by the law in the UK.
:42:00. > :42:05.The public mood has hardened. There is less tolerance, more demand for
:42:05. > :42:13.change. But politics isn't just about what is popular but what is
:42:13. > :42:25.Joining us is an Iraqi asylum seeker living in Bristol and Doctor Naomi
:42:25. > :42:29.University. Let's start with you first of all. People expect you
:42:29. > :42:31.University. Let's start with you be firm about immigration but are
:42:31. > :42:38.you now sympathy being unkind? People expect us to be firm and
:42:38. > :42:39.you now sympathy being unkind? and we have very sensible processes
:42:39. > :42:44.for dealing with asylum, which we'll be talking about shortly. Britain is
:42:44. > :42:50.a welcoming country for people who love a good claim to be here but we
:42:50. > :42:52.expect people to play by the rules. But you are trying to create a
:42:52. > :43:01.illegal immigrants that is what But you are trying to create a
:43:01. > :43:03.claiming asylum while the claim But you are trying to create a
:43:03. > :43:09.being processed, we want to be welcoming. For those who have not
:43:09. > :43:13.had their claim granted and have had the chance to appeal, we want them
:43:13. > :43:20.to leave the country. If someone needs urgent health care... They
:43:20. > :43:24.will get it. It is a National Health Service not an international health
:43:24. > :43:29.service. Was the poster campaign your idea? It was something I signed
:43:29. > :43:40.off in the Home Office. It was a pilot and we are evaluating the
:43:40. > :43:43.results. How many people went home? I was making the point in the House
:43:43. > :43:48.of Commons this week that it cost £10,000. I said that if only one
:43:48. > :43:54.person went home as a result, it will have paid for itself. At least
:43:54. > :44:02.one did. I believe it has been banned by the advertising standards
:44:02. > :44:08.agency. Just let me finish. When we autumn, people can judge. If it
:44:08. > :44:10.agency. Just let me finish. When we successful we will continue and
:44:10. > :44:19.agency. Just let me finish. When we not, we won't. Even UKIP said it was
:44:19. > :44:22.nasty. It was about focusing on people who are illegal immigrant is
:44:22. > :44:29.and don't have the right to be in Britain. Anne, the people who suffer
:44:29. > :44:38.immigration are the work because they are priced out of jobs. ——
:44:38. > :44:44.immigration are the work because poor. That was Labour's fort, wasn't
:44:44. > :44:54.in the slightest. In the first illegal immigrant or migrants sent
:44:54. > :45:02.home at the ports. In the second quarter of this year, 2013, only
:45:02. > :45:05.14,000 were sent home at port entry. Labour encouraged immigration,
:45:05. > :45:12.didn't it? We didn't encourage illegal immigration. But what we had
:45:12. > :45:15.were some very firm controls which are not now being practised by this
:45:15. > :45:23.government. What people want is effective immigration and illegal
:45:23. > :45:36.immigration controlled. Ed Miliband immigration policy. What we've
:45:36. > :45:38.apologised for, as Chris Bryant said, is that we made a mistake
:45:38. > :45:43.about allowing Eastern European said, is that we made a mistake
:45:43. > :45:44.to come in just before everybody else did, so they came to this
:45:44. > :45:49.country first. I don't think we else did, so they came to this
:45:49. > :45:56.a mistake on a number of immigration issues because we were very firm and
:45:56. > :46:02.very tough but you have to be fair. Welcome to this studio. You are
:46:02. > :46:03.very tough but you have to be fair. Iraq. Tell us your story. Thank
:46:03. > :46:11.very tough but you have to be fair. very much, first of all, and I want
:46:11. > :46:19.illegal person. I am an asylum seeker. My life in my country is in
:46:19. > :46:35.danger, that's why I left my family and everything. I came here, I
:46:35. > :46:44.Asylum seekers for centuries have come here. You didn't believe me and
:46:44. > :46:50.I know my story is true. The system did not believe me. I didn't want to
:46:50. > :46:56.interrupt you but you've been turned down for asylum how many times? Five
:46:56. > :47:09.times they didn't believe me. And it because my life is in danger there.
:47:09. > :47:14.I will continue trying to get my right to get a safe place. We are
:47:14. > :47:16.very clear. His case has been looked at very carefully by the government
:47:16. > :47:20.and we didn't find it credible. at very carefully by the government
:47:20. > :47:24.have a fair system where he is able to go through a legal process. The
:47:24. > :47:27.judge said parts of his claim were not credible and ridiculous. I'm
:47:27. > :47:36.afraid he has no right to be in not credible and ridiculous. I'm
:47:36. > :47:38.Would you consider that? My life is in danger in my country, that is why
:47:38. > :47:47.I can't return. My friends here in danger in my country, that is why
:47:47. > :48:04.community. But their ability is limited. I want to ask you, can
:48:04. > :48:05.community. But their ability is With the greatest respect, when
:48:05. > :48:08.community. But their ability is were claiming asylum the taxpayer
:48:08. > :48:13.supported you. You now have no right to be in the UK and should return
:48:13. > :48:20.home. My life is in danger. We don't believe you and neither did the
:48:20. > :48:25.judge. There is no room for them. They are living in the park and
:48:25. > :48:27.judge. There is no room for them. bus shelter. My friends are helping
:48:27. > :48:36.me and giving me a place to sleep and giving me clothes. I want to
:48:36. > :48:38.bring in Naomi. The question of getting tough on immigration is
:48:38. > :48:43.because the public are loud and clear about it. I work with four
:48:43. > :48:48.refugee organisations in Bristol and we have a network of researchers who
:48:48. > :48:52.are very concerned that the UK is pursuing a deliberate policy of
:48:52. > :49:02.destitution, trying to put off people from coming here. The recent
:49:02. > :49:07.report produced by the home affairs department suggested that alongside
:49:07. > :49:15.Amnesty International, human rights are being contravened. I work with
:49:15. > :49:18.destitute because they are trying to get evidence. I have seen people
:49:18. > :49:21.being refused from the same region for opposite reasons. There have
:49:21. > :49:24.been whistle—blowing reports in for opposite reasons. There have
:49:24. > :49:30.Guardian to suggest that the people qualified. It suggests there are
:49:30. > :49:35.problems with the way the process is taking place. To then refused to
:49:35. > :49:40.provide accommodation, the right to work, health to these people...
:49:40. > :49:43.Hard—working families will be sat there in credulous that someone
:49:43. > :49:46.Hard—working families will be sat had a chance to go through a system,
:49:46. > :49:49.they've had a decision, appealed it to a judge, have been found not
:49:49. > :49:52.they've had a decision, appealed it have the need for our protection.
:49:52. > :49:54.They will find it incredible that the taxpayer should be expected
:49:54. > :49:57.They will find it incredible that continue to fund them when they
:49:57. > :50:02.don't have the right to live here. It doesn't give the world the right
:50:02. > :50:07.to come to the United Kingdom. It is chance and not hard work which
:50:07. > :50:12.is... We are generous at protecting people who are genuinely fleeing
:50:12. > :50:15.persecution. If people abuse our system, it will damage the British
:50:16. > :50:21.people's tolerance. If people don't interpretation and legal aid, they
:50:21. > :50:27.will not be able to make their claims. Why is there a queue of
:50:27. > :50:35.people to come here if it is so difficult? Twice as many people
:50:35. > :50:39.people to come here if it is so accepted for asylum in France and
:50:39. > :50:40.Germany as the UK last year. Asylum seekers are only 4% of the migrant
:50:40. > :50:45.population. They are being made seekers are only 4% of the migrant
:50:45. > :50:49.scapegoat for a much broader raft of political and economic problems
:50:49. > :50:50.scapegoat for a much broader raft of the UK. The system itself needs
:50:50. > :50:53.scapegoat for a much broader raft of be looked at, opened up and dressed
:50:53. > :51:02.with honesty and not just with rhetoric. We have to leave it there.
:51:02. > :51:06.We've heard a lot about Mark's role as the minister for immigration
:51:06. > :51:07.We've heard a lot about Mark's role what is it actually like to juggle
:51:07. > :51:11.constituency work and that famous red box? This week our political
:51:11. > :51:18.reporter is headed to London to red box? This week our political
:51:18. > :51:23.The summer recess has well and truly faded and conference season is
:51:23. > :51:26.behind us as well. Our West Country MPs made their way back to the
:51:26. > :51:29.hustle and bustle of the Westminster bubble recently. I've got letters to
:51:29. > :51:36.sign and other things to clear. bubble recently. I've got letters to
:51:36. > :51:41.course, on top of that, I've got my constituency responsibilities. It is
:51:41. > :51:44.quite a full day. It keeps us busy and my constituents get value for
:51:44. > :51:52.money for what they pay me. That will be up to the voters in the
:51:52. > :52:04.Forest of Dean to decide, of course. When we met Mark, he had been up
:52:04. > :52:10.From the plush the rantings of the Home Office to his MP office. The
:52:10. > :52:19.constituency work never stops, so add in a ministerial job, it's extra
:52:19. > :52:23.pay and responsibilities, and it makes for a long day. It's a price
:52:23. > :52:27.Mark is willing to pay. We've seen this week with the reshuffle that
:52:27. > :52:31.you so at the best of the Prime Minister. I'm very lucky that he's
:52:31. > :52:36.asked me to do what is a job that is very important for the country and
:52:36. > :52:37.which most of my constituents would think is important and I think most
:52:37. > :52:42.of them would support the moves think is important and I think most
:52:42. > :52:43.are making. On Friday it's back think is important and I think most
:52:43. > :52:47.the constituency. Do the voters think is important and I think most
:52:47. > :52:49.agreed? It gives us credibility think is important and I think most
:52:49. > :53:00.Parliament if we've got somebody Conservative party? I think with the
:53:01. > :53:05.is maybe trying to get a grip on it but I don't think he's succeeding at
:53:05. > :53:09.the moment. In all honesty, I don't think it helps an awful lot. We
:53:09. > :53:17.the moment. In all honesty, I don't feel that he should be looking after
:53:17. > :53:24.us a bit more. With 11 out of the time they can spend solving local
:53:25. > :53:33.issues is reduced. We've all got a high workload and work long hours.
:53:33. > :53:37.constituency just like everybody else and we do the work of the
:53:37. > :53:46.constituents. What about your home life? It's 8pm. It's not regular
:53:46. > :53:51.that you would be out for a pint. Last time you had a pint, you got
:53:51. > :53:57.into trouble, didn't you? We talked about this earlier. As a minister,
:53:57. > :54:01.you have your book box and we all get our homework every night. The
:54:01. > :54:06.only time during the summer but get our homework every night. The
:54:06. > :54:13.didn't have a read box, people will be familiar with the fat that I
:54:13. > :54:15.didn't have a read box, people will out doing some dancing and had a
:54:15. > :54:17.serious injury to my foot, which, fortunately, has now healed, which
:54:17. > :54:22.most of my constituents seem to fortunately, has now healed, which
:54:22. > :54:28.thought was a huge handicap my career! It is a fine line to walk,
:54:28. > :54:32.being a minister, surely the perks outweigh the pitfalls. Just ask
:54:32. > :54:37.being a minister, surely the perks of the West's MPs who were sacked
:54:37. > :54:42.Looks pretty odd to me. Why do people want to get elected and be
:54:42. > :54:47.ministers? I have no idea, to be honest. It is a nightmare. It is a
:54:47. > :54:53.very busy time and, frankly, I had enough to do when I was a PPS. It is
:54:53. > :54:57.round—the—clock and people don't get enough sleep. But there's something
:54:57. > :55:03.about it that you love otherwise people wouldn't be so upset about
:55:03. > :55:07.being sacked. When you get elected as an MP and as and is, it's because
:55:07. > :55:12.most people go into politics because they think they can make the country
:55:12. > :55:16.particularly, you hope you'll be able to make changes in the right
:55:16. > :55:18.direction. The public get to choose whether they think you've made a
:55:18. > :55:27.good job but that's why people do Westminster with all the kowtowing
:55:27. > :55:30.from the rest of us? I don't think there is any kowtowing. I think
:55:30. > :55:31.from the rest of us? I don't think exactly the opposite — who do you
:55:31. > :55:45.Time now for our weekly look at exactly the opposite — who do you
:55:45. > :55:48.The West's controversial badger exactly the opposite — who do you
:55:48. > :55:54.could now continue into November. Paterson said their planning is
:55:54. > :56:00.could now continue into November. to blame. It's those pesky badgers
:56:00. > :56:04.who moved the goalposts again. We're dealing with a wild animal, subject
:56:04. > :56:08.to the vagaries of weather and disease and breeding patterns.
:56:08. > :56:15.Confirmation, to, from him that they're considering gassing badgers
:56:15. > :56:20.These Lib Dems were booted out of reshuffle. Jeremy Browne lost his
:56:20. > :56:27.job at the Home Office and David Campaigners took up residence in
:56:27. > :56:35.Miss Appletree to stop campaigners from dropping it down. The badger
:56:35. > :56:46.set here was what they were trying This protester has been charged
:56:46. > :56:49.set here was what they were trying Let's pick up on the badger story.
:56:49. > :56:53.The badger is moving the goalposts again, as your minister said. This
:56:53. > :56:59.is going on in your constituency — do you approve? I do. There is no
:56:59. > :57:03.enthusiasm for it. We've got a very difficult situation. Bovine TB has
:57:03. > :57:11.been increasing very quickly over the last few years. But it's an
:57:11. > :57:19.utter failure. I think the evidence from this week is that we've made
:57:19. > :57:25.considerable progress. We have been necessary and the evidence from
:57:25. > :57:30.other countries is that you've got to get a grip on the disease. It's
:57:30. > :57:35.nonsense. It's costing £4 million to police this failed cull and they've
:57:35. > :57:38.had to ask for extension. All it's going to do is disperse badgers
:57:38. > :57:38.had to ask for extension. All it's TB to other parts of Gloucestershire
:57:38. > :57:43.and Somerset where they haven't TB to other parts of Gloucestershire
:57:43. > :57:50.TB before. Friendly, this idea of gassing badgers, which will gas
:57:50. > :57:55.horrendous. It is failed science and failed humanity. I'm not a big fan
:57:55. > :58:05.at all. That's all we've got time for today. Banks to our two guests
:58:05. > :58:08.for joining us. —— thank you. The programme will be available on the
:58:08. > :58:12.and these tactics were plain wrong. That is all we have time for. Back
:58:12. > :58:26.ministerial team this week with That is all we have time for. Back
:58:26. > :58:31.commentators calling it the purge of the Blairites, but one poor lamb who
:58:31. > :58:36.fell victim to this perch was Diane Abbott, not somebody who worshipped
:58:36. > :58:40.at the altar of Tony Blair. Life on the backbenches means she can pursue
:58:40. > :58:47.other interests such as attending the Cheltenham literary Festival,
:58:47. > :58:51.and where she joins us now. Welcome. Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He
:58:51. > :58:58.think the thing that did it for Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He
:58:59. > :59:05.was me coming out on Syria. This was Why did Ed Miliband fire you? He
:59:05. > :59:10.a purge of the Blairites, how did you become collateral damage? I
:59:10. > :59:12.a purge of the Blairites, how did no idea but the fact that I was
:59:12. > :59:14.a purge of the Blairites, how did one member of the front bench to go
:59:14. > :59:21.public about my concerns on Syria probably tipped my enemies in the
:59:21. > :59:25.party machinery over the edge. But he went your way on Syria, in the
:59:25. > :59:33.end he agreed with your line on Syria so why would that be for
:59:33. > :59:37.dismissal? I agree with you - you're fired. Because I actually spoke
:59:37. > :59:39.dismissal? I agree with you - you're and it was the fact that I spoke up,
:59:39. > :59:48.which was like a pebble falling and it was the fact that I spoke up,
:59:48. > :59:55.forest or something. I am glad I spoke up on Syria. He doesn't like
:59:55. > :00:12.people around them than who are outspoken, who speak their minds? I
:00:12. > :00:14.think he's convinced he needs people who read from the scripts. People
:00:14. > :00:21.increasingly upset that even though who read from the scripts. People
:00:21. > :00:27.I was speaking party policy, I was reading from the script. Since Mr
:00:27. > :00:34.Miliband bid you farewell, you've said he's doing his best. Is his
:00:34. > :00:38.best good enough? I am sure it will be. I've always said the Labour
:00:38. > :00:43.Party chose the right Miliband. be. I've always said the Labour
:00:43. > :00:49.will remain loyal to him on the backbenches. You're going to be
:00:50. > :00:54.loyal? However, I want to join in the debate. You're going to be
:00:54. > :00:58.loyal? Absolutely. I was loyal both in public and private when others
:00:59. > :01:05.were bitching about him behind the from the backbenches, I hope to
:01:05. > :01:07.were bitching about him behind the involved in the debate particularly
:01:07. > :01:11.around nick policy. Et's see how loyal you are. You must be happy
:01:11. > :01:20.with all this new tough talk on welfare and free schools? Well,
:01:20. > :01:24.with all this new tough talk on think both Rachel and Tristram are
:01:24. > :01:28.very talented. We're going to have to see how this all plays out. The
:01:28. > :01:32.issue of free schools, they are to see how this all plays out. The
:01:32. > :01:34.thing. But diminishing the role to see how this all plays out. The
:01:34. > :01:42.local authorities is another. There need strong local authorities. I'm
:01:42. > :01:44.local authorities is another. There sure Tristram will be aware of that.
:01:44. > :01:50.As for welfare, I'm sure Rachel knows some of the cuts the Tories
:01:50. > :01:56.have made have been counter prod ublingtive in -- productive in terms
:01:56. > :01:57.of spending. You wouldn't call that your full-hearted endorsement, would
:01:57. > :02:05.you? What are you on, and lieu? your full-hearted endorsement, would
:02:05. > :02:10.haven't seen the detail of Rachel's new position. You have to wait and
:02:10. > :02:15.see the detail. It is in the papers. You haven't stopped reading the
:02:15. > :02:20.papers. It was the Observer. When will you announce you're running for
:02:20. > :02:25.Mayor of London? I have no plans to announce that I'm running for Mayor
:02:25. > :02:25.Mayor of London? I have no plans to of London. No plans. That's what
:02:25. > :02:30.Michael his I will Tyne used to of London. No plans. That's what
:02:30. > :02:34.me. He had no plans to run against Margaret Thatcher. Are these the
:02:34. > :02:42.same kind of plans you have? I know. No, no. I have no plans. You know
:02:42. > :02:52.going for it. Everybody knows you're going for it. Just fess up to your
:02:52. > :02:57.old mate! ! I have no plans to run. If you did run, who would be, what
:02:57. > :03:07.would be your biggest threat other than yourself? I think there's a lot
:03:07. > :03:16.of very talented candidates, David They are all talented. I would have
:03:16. > :03:20.to weigh up the field. What do you think your chances would be of
:03:20. > :03:27.getting the taxi drivers' vote? Well, you know, Andrew, some of
:03:27. > :03:32.getting the taxi drivers' vote? most loyal viewers of This Week
:03:32. > :03:34.getting the taxi drivers' vote? were taxi drivers and their wives.
:03:34. > :03:39.I'm not frightened of reaching out to middle England. You will find if
:03:39. > :03:45.you walk around London sub usual ya, they all know me and they all love
:03:45. > :03:50.This Week. Love This Week. I thought you were going to say they all love
:03:50. > :03:54.you. One person who loves you, is Michael Portillo. He wasn't a happy
:03:55. > :04:00.chappie on Thursday night. You can't see it but you can hear. This is
:04:00. > :04:07.what he said. I was disappointed for her. She had decided to leave this
:04:07. > :04:11.something else in politics. She wanted to do something serious.
:04:11. > :04:13.something else in politics. She had taken what appeared to be a
:04:14. > :04:15.something else in politics. She position but taken it extremely
:04:15. > :04:23.serious and was committed to the issues. I'm quite disappointed for
:04:23. > :04:28.her. Why would Ed Miliband do such a thing. You just mentioned about
:04:28. > :04:37.London mayor, did Diane not ask thing. You just mentioned about
:04:37. > :04:40.Someone who's an eminent person thing. You just mentioned about
:04:40. > :04:43.this programme, I don't know how he could do that. I think Michael's
:04:44. > :04:50.missing you. Are you free this Thursday night? Make him a happy
:04:50. > :04:55.man, come back to the fold. I think I may be free this Thursday night.
:04:55. > :04:59.So, if he'll have me, I'll be there. My people will speak to your people.
:04:59. > :05:04.We'll get it sorted out. Diane, watch that big vase behind you,
:05:04. > :05:10.you're not insured for. That thanks Does she have a chance of being
:05:10. > :05:12.Mayor of London? She's very well known as Michael pointed out. That
:05:13. > :05:19.is important. People who are outside known as Michael pointed out. That
:05:19. > :05:21.the party fold have traditionally done well in the mayoral election.
:05:21. > :05:26.The job of being a London mayor done well in the mayoral election.
:05:26. > :05:31.running an economy the size of a nation. It is a very serious job.
:05:31. > :05:38.There may be problems with her running? That was a transparent
:05:38. > :05:42.There may be problems with her for it. She's potentially a very
:05:42. > :05:52.compelling Coll ticks. People have left-winger but she's quite tough
:05:52. > :05:59.and conservative. Michael Gove said he had fallen in love with Diane
:05:59. > :06:06.which That's one vote he has. What do you think? I thing about Diane
:06:06. > :06:10.Abbott is she has a fantastic way of connecting. She has a really good
:06:10. > :06:16.way of connecting wi people. She would be a very strong candidate in
:06:16. > :06:23.candidate. It will probably be a Labour win next time. Depends, if
:06:23. > :06:29.Labour wins the 2015 election it may be more difficult. There's a danger
:06:29. > :06:30.for Labour that Diane is the big personality liked by the party
:06:31. > :06:37.primary but isn't necessarily a personality liked by the party
:06:37. > :06:43.in come the London general election? That's true. London is traditionally
:06:43. > :06:48.a Labour city. But Boris managed to win as an outsider. There are big
:06:48. > :06:52.dangers for Labour with that. I think, as I said before, somebody
:06:52. > :06:59.who seems a bit independent from their own party machinery tend to do
:07:00. > :07:06.We've only had mayors so far that were independent? Indeed. And how
:07:06. > :07:09.Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. well Ken Livingstone did last time.
:07:09. > :07:11.Not that far behind bar Is Johnson. He was and is much more left-wing
:07:11. > :07:20.than Diane Abbott. Diane didn't He was and is much more left-wing
:07:20. > :07:29.stray on Syria, it was immigration. Why was Jeremy brown replaced by
:07:29. > :07:34.This is very much to do with Clegg deciding he has to go back to those
:07:34. > :07:37.people who abandoned the Liberal Democrats the day they went into
:07:37. > :07:42.coalition with the Conservatives really, and convince them there
:07:42. > :07:46.coalition with the Conservatives some holy areas of policy, sacred
:07:46. > :07:48.areas which they will defend. That includes civil liberties. In the
:07:49. > :07:52.Home Office, that incident with includes civil liberties. In the
:07:52. > :07:58.immigration vans went down very badly across the whole nation. Went
:07:58. > :08:02.down particularly badly with Liberal Democrats and voters. In the Home
:08:02. > :08:13.somebody there to put a shield on purpose behind it. And Nick Clegg
:08:13. > :08:17.has won the argument against the left, Vince Cable on the economy,
:08:17. > :08:22.away day in July, briefings say DrCable's been put in his box. He's
:08:22. > :08:26.won the argument on economic policy against the left. When it comes
:08:26. > :08:28.won the argument on economic policy the touchstone issue in the Home
:08:28. > :08:32.Office, he wants to shore up that vote on the left. And please The
:08:32. > :08:38.Guardian. This is important for something else going on which is
:08:39. > :08:43.that Nick Clegg has to keep his parliamentary party happy. That
:08:43. > :08:47.involves giving them ministerial jobs. A lot of Liberal Democrats
:08:47. > :08:59.losing their jobs, Michael Moore, because vacancies have to be created
:08:59. > :09:06.for number people to come in. By Liberal Democrat MPs will have been
:09:07. > :09:12.on the payroll. It is effective party management. I want to move on
:09:12. > :09:14.to press regulation. Brian Leveson's famous report, appeared before the
:09:14. > :09:19.parliamentary select committee. famous report, appeared before the
:09:19. > :09:31.will run you a clip from Connor politicians got involved in this. We
:09:31. > :09:36.moved away from the press 300 years ago. The centr commitment is Lord
:09:36. > :09:45.Leveson wanted a system the press self-regulation. This is state
:09:45. > :09:51.involvement which I worry about profoundly. He sits on the media
:09:51. > :09:56.interviews and investigations into the media. Chris Huhne said earlier
:09:56. > :10:00.he thought all the newspapers would sign up to the Government-backed
:10:00. > :10:07.Royal Charter. I think he's totally should. But he did say they would. I
:10:07. > :10:12.think he's wrong. They won't sign up. All the mood music when that
:10:12. > :10:19.Royal Charter was agreed on Friday was they would not sign up. It is
:10:19. > :10:21.Maria Miller, is essentially saying to the press industry, if you don't
:10:21. > :10:24.sign up, the Royal charter will to the press industry, if you don't
:10:25. > :10:30.ahead. I cannot control the Labour to the press industry, if you don't
:10:30. > :10:32.industry is wind the clock back to the press industry, if you don't
:10:32. > :10:40.what they are calling the Puttnam stage. That was earlier this year,
:10:40. > :10:44.Lord Puttnam was tack amendments which would introduce statutory
:10:44. > :10:54.regulation. Maria Miller says you statutory legislation but if you
:10:54. > :11:01.don't sign up to this, it will be a lot worse. Will that work? Playing
:11:01. > :11:05.the good cop, bad cop routine? Will that pressurise everyone to sign up.
:11:05. > :11:11.Lots of people are saying this will be a club with no members. It won't
:11:11. > :11:16.work. As Nick and I broke the story last week that the Government was
:11:16. > :11:21.going to reject the newspaper-backed one, I'm certain that the newspapers
:11:21. > :11:28.now, most of them maybe, not all, but most, will go the legal route
:11:28. > :11:33.and to judicial review on what the Government's proposing and will
:11:33. > :11:33.and to judicial review on what the it to strains Bowring where freedom
:11:33. > :11:41.of the press is enshrined. They it to strains Bowring where freedom
:11:41. > :11:45.fight this? There is enough fury amongst Fleet Street to result in
:11:45. > :11:49.that. The big political question going forward is which of the party
:11:49. > :11:53.leaders does the press blame the most for the emergence of press
:11:53. > :11:58.regulation? The Tories are very confident they'll blame Ed Miliband
:11:58. > :12:03.the most. They'll target him before 2015. David Cameron gave us Brian
:12:03. > :12:11.Leveson. You appoint a judge who shouldn't be surprised with what you
:12:11. > :12:15.got in the Leveson report? I big chunk of press will look at David
:12:15. > :12:29.Cameron saying, you were the guy who intended what will happen. If he had
:12:29. > :12:32.have appointed Brian Leveson. If they face more punitive fines over
:12:32. > :12:37.Labour ale cases they take that they face more punitive fines over
:12:37. > :12:45.Europe. The Daily Mail and the tallest presumably will have to
:12:45. > :12:50.suspend their campaign of Britain to leave the European Convention of
:12:50. > :12:59.suspend that. We must never come out Churchill was behind it. He was
:12:59. > :13:00.indeed. But it is actually a major constitutional issue whether you
:13:00. > :13:06.regulate the press or not. There was constitutional issue whether you
:13:06. > :13:11.a lot of ill feeling that this Marie ya miller statement was snubbing out
:13:11. > :13:16.on Friday afternoon. Somebody said freedom of the press too important
:13:16. > :13:21.to sneak out on afully afternoon. The whole subject should be treated
:13:21. > :13:27.with respect. We've run out of time. I'll be back next Sunday with the
:13:27. > :13:37.Communities Secretary Eric Pickles at our usual time of 11.00am. If