:00:41. > :00:46.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:47. > :00:51.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:52. > :00:55.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:56. > :01:01.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:02. > :01:06.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:07. > :01:13.coppers will be answering questions this
:01:14. > :01:17.In the West, free food hand`outs treble, but why are so many relying
:01:18. > :01:19.on places like this to feed them? London, does the London assembly
:01:20. > :01:34.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:35. > :01:38.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:39. > :01:43.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:44. > :01:52.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:53. > :01:58.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:59. > :02:02.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:03. > :02:06.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:07. > :02:11.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:12. > :02:16.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:17. > :02:19.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:20. > :02:30.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence
:02:31. > :02:35.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:36. > :02:39.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:40. > :02:44.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:45. > :02:49.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:50. > :02:52.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:53. > :02:58.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:59. > :03:02.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:03. > :03:06.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:07. > :03:11.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:12. > :03:16.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:17. > :03:19.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:20. > :03:26.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%
:03:27. > :03:31.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:32. > :03:36.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:37. > :03:42.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:43. > :03:45.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:46. > :03:49.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:50. > :03:54.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:55. > :03:57.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:58. > :04:02.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:03. > :04:07.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:08. > :04:10.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:11. > :04:14.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:15. > :04:18.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:19. > :04:22.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:23. > :04:26.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:27. > :04:29.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:30. > :04:33.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:34. > :04:36.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:37. > :04:41.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:42. > :04:44.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:45. > :04:48.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:49. > :04:55.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:56. > :05:01.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:02. > :05:04.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:05. > :05:11.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:12. > :05:15.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:16. > :05:20.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:21. > :05:26.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:27. > :05:30.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:31. > :05:35.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:36. > :05:40.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:41. > :05:47.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:48. > :05:51.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:52. > :05:55.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:56. > :05:59.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:06:00. > :06:03.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:04. > :06:13.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:14. > :06:18.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:19. > :06:22.identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to
:06:23. > :06:27.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:28. > :06:30.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:31. > :06:36.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:37. > :06:38.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:39. > :06:42.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:43. > :06:47.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:48. > :06:50.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:51. > :06:55.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:56. > :06:59.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:07:00. > :07:03.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:04. > :07:08.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:09. > :07:11.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:12. > :07:15.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:16. > :07:20.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:21. > :07:27.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:28. > :07:34.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:35. > :07:39.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:40. > :07:44.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:45. > :07:48.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:49. > :07:51.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:52. > :07:56.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:57. > :08:00.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:08:01. > :08:04.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:05. > :08:10.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:11. > :08:13.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:14. > :08:19.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:20. > :08:24.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:25. > :08:27.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:28. > :08:32.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:33. > :08:37.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:38. > :08:42.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:43. > :08:52.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:53. > :08:58.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:59. > :09:03.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:04. > :09:05.government would do, if elected A decision on what the first
:09:06. > :09:09.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:10. > :09:15.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:16. > :09:17.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:18. > :09:21.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:22. > :09:27.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:28. > :09:32.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:33. > :09:35.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:36. > :09:39.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:40. > :09:44.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:45. > :09:49.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:50. > :09:53.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:54. > :09:58.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:59. > :10:03.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:04. > :10:07.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:08. > :10:12.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:13. > :10:16.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:17. > :10:20.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:21. > :10:25.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and
:10:26. > :10:29.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:30. > :10:32.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:33. > :10:36.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:37. > :10:41.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:42. > :10:45.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:46. > :11:00.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:11:01. > :11:05.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:06. > :11:11.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:12. > :11:14.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:15. > :11:24.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:25. > :11:27.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:28. > :11:31.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:32. > :11:37.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:38. > :11:41.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:42. > :11:44.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:45. > :11:50.then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:51. > :11:56.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:57. > :12:01.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:02. > :12:10.right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:11. > :12:15.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:16. > :12:19.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:20. > :12:35.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:36. > :12:43.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:44. > :12:48.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:49. > :12:53.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:54. > :12:57.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:58. > :13:00.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:13:01. > :13:04.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:05. > :13:09.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:10. > :13:14.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:15. > :13:18.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:19. > :13:22.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:23. > :13:27.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:28. > :13:30.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:31. > :13:35.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:36. > :13:41.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:42. > :13:50.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:51. > :13:54.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:55. > :13:58.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:59. > :14:03.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:04. > :14:07.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:08. > :14:10.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:11. > :14:14.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:15. > :14:19.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:20. > :14:25.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:26. > :14:31.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:32. > :14:39.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:40. > :14:43.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:44. > :14:48.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:49. > :14:53.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:54. > :14:56.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:57. > :15:00.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:15:01. > :15:04.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:05. > :15:09.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:10. > :15:14.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:15. > :15:17.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:18. > :15:22.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:23. > :15:25.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:26. > :15:30.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:31. > :15:36.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:37. > :15:41.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:42. > :16:00.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:16:01. > :16:03.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:04. > :16:09.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:10. > :16:13.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:14. > :16:17.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:18. > :16:21.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:22. > :16:26.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:27. > :16:31.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:32. > :16:36.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:37. > :16:40.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:41. > :16:45.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:46. > :16:48.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:49. > :17:02.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:03. > :17:08.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:09. > :17:17.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:18. > :17:23.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:24. > :17:31.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:32. > :17:36.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:37. > :17:41.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:42. > :17:47.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:48. > :17:54.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:55. > :18:01.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:02. > :18:05.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:06. > :18:11.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:12. > :18:16.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:17. > :18:24.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:25. > :18:28.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:29. > :18:36.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:37. > :18:43.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:44. > :18:50.micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:51. > :18:53.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:54. > :19:01.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:02. > :19:04.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:05. > :19:11.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:12. > :19:16.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:17. > :19:22.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:23. > :19:28.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:29. > :19:36.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:37. > :19:40.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:41. > :19:46.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:47. > :19:50.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:51. > :20:01.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:02. > :20:08.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:09. > :20:18.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:19. > :20:27.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:28. > :20:32.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:33. > :20:40.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:41. > :20:45.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:46. > :20:51.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:52. > :20:59.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:21:00. > :21:13.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:14. > :21:17.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:18. > :21:25.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:26. > :21:29.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:30. > :21:37.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,
:21:38. > :21:44.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:45. > :21:47.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:48. > :22:01.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:02. > :22:05.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:06. > :22:12.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:13. > :22:17.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:18. > :22:25.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:26. > :22:28.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:29. > :22:37.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:38. > :22:42.belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are
:22:43. > :22:50.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:51. > :23:01.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:02. > :23:07.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:08. > :23:07.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:08. > :23:14.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:15. > :23:15.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:16. > :23:19.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:20. > :23:25.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:26. > :23:37.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:38. > :23:37.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:38. > :23:40.there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot
:23:41. > :23:42.there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:43. > :23:55.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:56. > :24:01.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:02. > :24:07.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:08. > :24:12.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:13. > :24:18.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:19. > :24:23.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:24. > :24:28.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:29. > :24:35.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:36. > :24:42.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:43. > :24:47.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:48. > :24:52.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:53. > :24:57.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:58. > :25:01.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:02. > :25:05.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:06. > :25:13.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:14. > :25:16.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:17. > :25:25.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:26. > :25:29.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:30. > :25:35.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:36. > :25:38.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:39. > :25:46.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:47. > :25:51.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:52. > :25:57.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:58. > :26:04.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:05. > :26:09.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:10. > :26:17.has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We
:26:18. > :26:23.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:24. > :26:36.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:37. > :26:44.we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:45. > :26:58.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:59. > :27:03.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:04. > :27:10.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:11. > :27:15.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:16. > :27:23.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:24. > :27:31.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:32. > :27:39.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:40. > :27:41.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:42. > :27:46.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:47. > :27:49.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:50. > :27:51.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:52. > :27:53.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:54. > :27:59.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:28:00. > :28:06.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:07. > :28:12.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:13. > :28:14.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:15. > :28:21.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:22. > :28:25.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament
:28:26. > :28:30.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:31. > :28:34.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:35. > :28:39.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:40. > :28:46.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:47. > :28:53.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:54. > :28:57.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:58. > :29:04.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:05. > :29:08.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:09. > :29:13.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:14. > :29:16.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:17. > :29:22.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:23. > :29:26.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:27. > :29:32.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:33. > :29:36.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:37. > :29:40.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:41. > :29:43.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:44. > :29:49.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:50. > :29:52.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:53. > :29:58.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:59. > :30:02.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:03. > :30:07.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:08. > :30:13.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:14. > :30:15.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:16. > :30:21.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:22. > :30:26.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:27. > :30:30.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:31. > :30:34.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of
:30:35. > :30:41.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:42. > :30:50.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:51. > :30:55.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:56. > :31:00.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:31:01. > :31:05.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:06. > :31:12.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:13. > :31:16.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:17. > :31:19.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:20. > :31:25.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:26. > :31:32.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:33. > :31:38.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:39. > :31:44.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:45. > :31:50.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:51. > :31:55.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:56. > :31:59.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:32:00. > :32:04.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:05. > :32:07.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:08. > :32:16.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:17. > :32:20.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:21. > :32:22.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:23. > :32:33.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:34. > :32:37.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:38. > :32:43.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:44. > :32:47.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:48. > :32:53.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces
:32:54. > :33:01.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:02. > :33:05.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:06. > :33:09.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:10. > :33:18.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:19. > :33:21.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:22. > :33:28.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:29. > :33:33.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:34. > :33:36.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:37. > :33:40.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:41. > :33:46.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:47. > :33:50.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:51. > :33:53.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:54. > :33:59.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:34:00. > :34:02.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:03. > :34:05.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:06. > :34:10.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:11. > :34:14.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:15. > :34:17.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:18. > :34:26.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:27. > :34:28.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:29. > :34:34.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:35. > :34:37.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:38. > :34:41.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:42. > :34:45.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:46. > :34:48.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:49. > :34:52.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:53. > :35:02.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:03. > :35:07.if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:08. > :35:13.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:14. > :35:18.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:19. > :35:22.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:23. > :35:26.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:27. > :35:33.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:34. > :35:38.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t.
:35:39. > :35:44.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:45. > :35:49.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:50. > :35:54.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:55. > :35:58.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:59. > :36:04.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:05. > :36:09.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:10. > :36:17.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:18. > :36:20.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people
:36:21. > :36:23.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:24. > :36:29.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:30. > :36:32.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:33. > :36:36.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:37. > :36:41.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:42. > :36:44.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution ..
:36:45. > :36:52.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:53. > :36:58.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:59. > :37:02.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:03. > :37:06.that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:07. > :37:11.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:12. > :37:18.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:19. > :37:27.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:28. > :37:34.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:35. > :37:45.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:46. > :37:49.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:50. > :37:53.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:54. > :37:57.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:58. > :38:03.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:04. > :38:09.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:10. > :38:13.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:14. > :38:20.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:21. > :38:26.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:27. > :38:29.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:30. > :38:42.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:43. > :38:49.Thank you. Welcome to the Sunday Politics here in the West. Today,
:38:50. > :38:53.why are so many people turning to food banks? According to a local
:38:54. > :38:57.charity, three times as many people are using them to feed themselves.
:38:58. > :39:02.Are the Coalition benefit reforms really to blame? Joining us are two
:39:03. > :39:07.local politicians come from opposite ends of political spectrum. ERD
:39:08. > :39:12.conservative Chris Skudder, and David Drew, who lost his Labour seat
:39:13. > :39:21.in Stroud at the last general election. First, the top story of
:39:22. > :39:27.the week. The government was forced to announce that the badger cull has
:39:28. > :39:32.fallen short of its target. DEFRA admitted fewer than half of their
:39:33. > :39:40.Lords target over the six weeks were killed. `` lowered. First, let us
:39:41. > :39:47.speak to one of the ministers in charge of the badger cull. Thank
:39:48. > :39:54.macro for joining us. `` thank you. Why has it failed? I do not think it
:39:55. > :39:58.has failed. These were pilot culls. There were people in the industry
:39:59. > :40:04.last why we did not get on with it nationally. We said no, we want to
:40:05. > :40:12.try and test this and learn lessons before we rule it out more widely.
:40:13. > :40:20.But you have tested it and it failed. Now, the trial in Somerset,
:40:21. > :40:26.they got to 60% and had an extension to their licence. Able get more
:40:27. > :40:29.closer to the 70% by the time it finishes. In Gloucestershire has
:40:30. > :40:37.been more challenging. There are a number of reasons for that. There
:40:38. > :40:41.are different landscapes. You run department said, the following
:40:42. > :40:45.requirements must we met. Killing of badgers must be limited to a
:40:46. > :40:51.six`week period. They have had the six weeks and have not met the
:40:52. > :40:54.target. The evidence we have is that is more important to get closer to
:40:55. > :41:00.the target than do it all within six weeks. When it comes to learning the
:41:01. > :41:05.lessons from this, we will work out whether we need to use trapping
:41:06. > :41:08.more, or controlled shooting. Learning lessons from things like
:41:09. > :41:12.the existence of crops and how that affects the movement of the animals
:41:13. > :41:20.and their willingness to go into traps. We want to learn lessons The
:41:21. > :41:22.evidence from trials done under the last government is that even in
:41:23. > :41:28.those areas where you have a slow start, where you perhaps only get
:41:29. > :41:36.30% in the first year, you can catch up. But the DEFRA report recommended
:41:37. > :41:44.the culling should take place in a period of six weeks, or preferably
:41:45. > :41:49.less. Yes, in an optimum situation, you would. But in that trial, there
:41:50. > :41:54.were three areas in the randomised Badger culling trial where they only
:41:55. > :41:57.got around 30`35% in the first year but they caught up and they got
:41:58. > :42:02.significant benefits in terms of disease reduction. The important
:42:03. > :42:06.thing to remember, if you look at a country like Ireland, they had
:42:07. > :42:13.problems with TB. I started a cull in 2000, and have had a 40%
:42:14. > :42:17.reduction in TB. `` they started a cull. If there was an easy way to
:42:18. > :42:27.solve this problem, I would love to do it. If I read badger, I would
:42:28. > :42:40.have packed my bags and got out `` if I were badger. The fact is, that
:42:41. > :42:47.badgers in a zone of calling moved to other areas in a short`term. That
:42:48. > :42:51.can lead to a short`term increase in the infection in the area around it.
:42:52. > :42:59.That it is a short lived experience, and the evidence from the rider Mize
:43:00. > :43:09.`` randomised trial says that it has gone down, the disease. Thank you.
:43:10. > :43:20.You can not be surprised that it has not hit its targets. Yes, when sex
:43:21. > :43:44.get attacked, after a couple have died, `` setts. Free shooting does
:43:45. > :43:50.not work. We do not want any sort of cull. If we have not had the sort of
:43:51. > :43:55.experience that the Minister has mentioned, and that TB in cattle
:43:56. > :44:04.came down, would you change your mind? I would never change my mind
:44:05. > :44:09.about killing them in any way. So you are fixed on no badgers being
:44:10. > :44:14.cold ever? Cattle vaccination should be the key thing we are looking at.
:44:15. > :44:21.This is quite an `` contentious issue. What is going to happen in
:44:22. > :44:25.Stroud? The trouble with the government is it is incomplete
:44:26. > :44:31.denial of the science. The scientists involved with the
:44:32. > :44:34.previous independent investigation have come out against culling
:44:35. > :44:39.because it will make it worse. Why do we not listen to the scientists
:44:40. > :44:43.and act on their advice and move for a full`scale vaccination programme
:44:44. > :44:47.initially with badgers and then moving onto cattle? Let the Minister
:44:48. > :44:58.comeback. What do you think about what David has said? If there was an
:44:59. > :45:03.easy answer, we would do it. No single measure on its own can solve
:45:04. > :45:06.this. We need to do more and deal with cattle movements, but we have
:45:07. > :45:11.done a great deal already. We have pre`movement tests for cattle moving
:45:12. > :45:21.into safe areas, post`movement tests, big restrictions on this We
:45:22. > :45:25.are spending ?4 million a year developing vaccines for badgers and
:45:26. > :45:31.cattle. That will have a role, but only once we have reduced the
:45:32. > :45:35.population because the problem with the vaccine is it cannot cure
:45:36. > :45:44.badgers with the disease just now. It has to be a combination of lots
:45:45. > :45:48.of things. It is wishful thinking. The saddest thing the Coalition did
:45:49. > :45:58.was remove the areas where they were carrying out the vaccination areas.
:45:59. > :46:02.If they had kept the six trial areas we would be a lot further forward in
:46:03. > :46:05.terms of science, and we would know what we could do to deal with the
:46:06. > :46:12.wildlife reservoir of TB then move on to the capital cattle. What would
:46:13. > :46:28.it take to make this pilot scheme fail? We need to continue along the
:46:29. > :46:33.lines of what we are doing. We want to learn lessons in this. The
:46:34. > :46:36.evidence about whether reducing the badger population and dealing with
:46:37. > :46:42.the reservoir of the disease in the badger population has an important
:46:43. > :46:50.role to play in this. We know that it is not enough, and long`term it
:46:51. > :46:55.will take eight or ten years. But it has to start with a cull of badgers
:46:56. > :47:00.as well. We have to be that the Thank you very much indeed.
:47:01. > :47:04.`` leave it there. Thousands of people are turning to
:47:05. > :47:08.charity to help them feed themselves and their families. Trust based in
:47:09. > :47:13.Wiltshire says demand is up 300 . The government has been asked to
:47:14. > :47:16.hold an enquiry into why is many people cannot afford the basics of
:47:17. > :47:21.life. `` so many people. These are one of
:47:22. > :47:26.the hundreds of thousands using Britain's burgeoning food banks
:47:27. > :47:30.Tracy and Chris get benefits. Many of the jobs he might get wood, he
:47:31. > :47:37.reckons, leave their family worse off. As it is, they seek extra help.
:47:38. > :47:47.It is scraping the bottom of the barrel and saying, OK, we will form
:47:48. > :47:50.the food bank. If this was not available, what would I feed my
:47:51. > :47:56.kids? The first thing you do is not eat yourself. This man has got by on
:47:57. > :48:00.benefits for eight months, but after missing an appointment, the
:48:01. > :48:05.Jobcentre halted payments. I find it horrendously difficult. Obstacles
:48:06. > :48:10.put in front of you, people not helping you, not communicating. So
:48:11. > :48:14.you turn for help to the Swindon food bank where they feed
:48:15. > :48:18.ever`increasing numbers. If we did not take in some any items at
:48:19. > :48:25.harvesting, it would be a struggle. However, the demand is 22% up on
:48:26. > :48:31.last year. They distribute enough food for three days to those like
:48:32. > :48:37.Graham, give vouchers by agencies. So what is driving the increase The
:48:38. > :48:44.benefits system is undergoing dramatic changes. There are big cuts
:48:45. > :48:47.in the crisis loans helping people through emergencies and a sharp
:48:48. > :48:52.increase in sanctions where benefits are stop temporarily. And there are
:48:53. > :48:57.wider economic factors, wages have fallen back. Food and energy prices
:48:58. > :49:04.have surged. There is another reason, though. There are more food
:49:05. > :49:09.banks than ever. Did 400 nationally, with a few opening every week.
:49:10. > :49:13.Charities are calling for the government enquiry. We are the
:49:14. > :49:17.seventh richest nation in the world, and it is scandalous that so many
:49:18. > :49:24.people are finding themselves in such deep difficulty. A lot of the
:49:25. > :49:28.reasons behind this are problems with social security systems, with
:49:29. > :49:32.the welfare system changes which have not been implemented
:49:33. > :49:38.effectively or efficiently. Many politicians agree. There are certain
:49:39. > :49:44.things you should not fall below. Natalie Bennett made a big issue
:49:45. > :49:47.that during a visit to the West It is a tragedy that in 2013 in
:49:48. > :49:52.Britain, half a million people today are dependent on food banks to get
:49:53. > :49:57.enough good to eat. I really value the work of the volunteers running
:49:58. > :50:02.them and people donating to them, but we have two ask ourselves, do we
:50:03. > :50:07.want people having to depend on charity for the basics of life?
:50:08. > :50:11.Chris is getting advice on how to better organise his finances. Graham
:50:12. > :50:16.is trying to get his benefits restored, but for them, using food
:50:17. > :50:20.banks has become part of ordinary life.
:50:21. > :50:25.The director of the citizens advice bureau in the West joins us. Thank
:50:26. > :50:28.you for coming in. You issue vouchers for these food banks, not
:50:29. > :50:37.just anyone can turn up. What criteria do you use? The issuing of
:50:38. > :50:41.a third major comes from normally a complex piece of work we are doing
:50:42. > :50:48.with the client. A client comes to us with a range of problems, and we
:50:49. > :50:54.discussed the money they have coming in, we deal with housing and
:50:55. > :51:02.employment problems, and it is a complex picture. So you do not just
:51:03. > :51:07.dish them out? Not at all. It is difficult to get food voucher. If
:51:08. > :51:10.someone turned up and you could see they were smoking 20 or 40
:51:11. > :51:17.cigarettes a day, what they get a voucher? We work with the client
:51:18. > :51:21.regarding debts and benefits and spending, how they manage their
:51:22. > :51:26.money. We do a lot of work around financial capability and helping
:51:27. > :51:30.people manage better. Chris, will this be one of the injuring images
:51:31. > :51:36.of the Coalition government? Queues at food banks? I hope not. The most
:51:37. > :51:42.important thing to get across as we do not want to see food banks as
:51:43. > :51:45.being a stigma. Under the last government, they refused people to
:51:46. > :51:49.access these pictures of they turned up at a Jobcentre. We do not see the
:51:50. > :51:56.problem with charities getting involved in setting up food banks.
:51:57. > :52:01.There is real pressure on wages on household income. At at the same
:52:02. > :52:05.time, one of the reasons why food bank use has gone up is because we
:52:06. > :52:12.have allowed people to use food banks when they were previously not
:52:13. > :52:18.allowed to do so. David? I am a supporter of the food banks in
:52:19. > :52:25.Stroud. What happens now, DWP have a very clear message to people who are
:52:26. > :52:29.in desperate straits, and that is that they will signpost people but
:52:30. > :52:34.they will not issue vouchers. They stopped issuing vouchers months ago
:52:35. > :52:36.in Stroud. I am a voucher holder and I will issue them, and often when
:52:37. > :52:42.people have been sanctioned, they will come to me. Sue is right. We
:52:43. > :52:46.are careful about who we issue them to. It is a myth that there has not
:52:47. > :52:49.been a huge increase. Batters connected to the benefit situation,
:52:50. > :52:55.but also the worsening economic situation. `` that is connected Do
:52:56. > :53:02.you think they'll is a genuine need for food banks? When someone has
:53:03. > :53:08.been sanctioned, they have nothing. I speak to people who have been
:53:09. > :53:12.sanctioned on a regular basis. People walk out of the Jobcentre and
:53:13. > :53:18.do not know where their next meal is coming from. It is my duty to find
:53:19. > :53:21.them food. I will do that. If it puts up figures, that draws
:53:22. > :53:24.attention to the need of those people and how we need to reform the
:53:25. > :53:33.benefit system so we should never put people in that situation. Chris?
:53:34. > :53:43.We have to take the situation with welfare in the context of reducing
:53:44. > :53:46.welfare payments. The cost of living is going up and wages are going
:53:47. > :53:50.down, so it is not surprising that people need food. But if you look at
:53:51. > :53:56.what the government has done, we have raised the threshold for income
:53:57. > :54:01.tax, we have frozen council taxes, frozen bedroom tax, so we are doing
:54:02. > :54:05.the best we can to make sure people have more money in their pockets.
:54:06. > :54:08.The people we deal with are not at that level, they are at the bottom
:54:09. > :54:15.rungs of society, where they get picked up by food banks. And you,
:54:16. > :54:18.Sue, for coming in. There has been a response to last
:54:19. > :54:21.week 's programme where the immigration minister came
:54:22. > :54:27.face`to`face with an asylum seeker and told him to go home. The man has
:54:28. > :54:31.been living in Bristol for six years and had his case rejected five
:54:32. > :54:35.times. He has had the chance to claim
:54:36. > :54:39.asylum, his case has been looked at carefully, and we did not find it
:54:40. > :54:42.credible. We have a system where he can go through a legal process and
:54:43. > :54:48.the judge did not find his claim credible. He has no right to be in
:54:49. > :55:01.the United Kingdom and he should leave. Cannula than five times a
:55:02. > :55:04.day? `` can you live? But with the greatest respect, the taxpayer
:55:05. > :55:10.supported you when you were claiming asylum. You now have note right to
:55:11. > :55:13.be your. You need to go home. Their confrontation made national
:55:14. > :55:17.headlines, with dozens of readers and viewers writing into the papers
:55:18. > :55:36.and online forums giving their views on whether he should be a latest a.
:55:37. > :55:42.`` allowed to stay. Public opinion, according to Mark Harper, is with
:55:43. > :55:46.the government. I do not see any problem in saying to people who have
:55:47. > :55:50.no right to be here that they should not be here any more. This is one of
:55:51. > :55:54.the examples about why we do not trust politics are politicians any
:55:55. > :55:57.more. It has been quite a week following
:55:58. > :56:03.that appearance on the Sunday Politics. I am joined by Mark
:56:04. > :56:09.Shepherd, who is a lawyer representing asylum seekers. Can you
:56:10. > :56:13.tell me why people like this can still be in this country after they
:56:14. > :56:18.have lost five hearings? First of all, I am not his lawyer, and I
:56:19. > :56:26.understand he is from Iraq. Situation in Iraq is a situation of
:56:27. > :56:30.potential civil war. Every asylum seeker is different, from different
:56:31. > :56:35.countries, and you cannot just send someone back to a place like Iraq or
:56:36. > :56:41.Iran, where their life could be in danger. The maid be refused on their
:56:42. > :56:46.personal circumstances, but that does not mean you can just send them
:56:47. > :56:49.home. Can you see why people are frustrated by the asylum system
:56:50. > :56:56.where people are told they do not have a claim, but they are still
:56:57. > :57:02.here? Yes, I am frustrated by the system, but you have to look at
:57:03. > :57:04.whether the system is working. For example, the home affairs select
:57:05. > :57:10.committee report reported ten days ago that nearly one in two women
:57:11. > :57:20.that go through the system have the decisions overturned in court. The
:57:21. > :57:28.blame is not necessarily on the people claiming asylum. The home
:57:29. > :57:31.affairs report said there was a disbelief within the system. In
:57:32. > :57:40.other words, you come to the country and Europe to grand almost not to
:57:41. > :57:49.believe them. Does you come to the country and we are generally not
:57:50. > :57:52.believing them. Will have to ask why people are hopping over 15 countries
:57:53. > :57:57.to get to Britain. We have to tackle that head`on, but until then there
:57:58. > :58:03.will be problems. People will ask why they are coming here, is it just
:58:04. > :58:29.for benefits? If you have genuine asylum seekers, we should help them,
:58:30. > :58:35.but if the law says... I do not think anyone would volunteer to be
:58:36. > :58:39.in a situation like this. Is it located tell them they should go
:58:40. > :58:42.home? Someone has been put through the system and has been found to
:58:43. > :58:46.have no case, and the country they are from is safe, they should be
:58:47. > :58:57.given the opportunity to voluntarily go home. Of the ones that you see,
:58:58. > :59:01.how many fit into that category Most people I meet have some form of
:59:02. > :59:07.claim to be here, but whether that meets the legal tests is something
:59:08. > :59:12.that can only be determined by Home Office decision`makers.
:59:13. > :59:16.Thank you for coming in. Letters have a look at some of the
:59:17. > :59:24.other political news making the headlines 60 seconds.
:59:25. > :59:28.`` in 60 seconds. Thousands of teachers whereon
:59:29. > :59:35.straight this week with Michael Gove the figure of hate. David Laws is
:59:36. > :59:41.his number two, and he took to the airwaves to defend the policies The
:59:42. > :59:47.unions are wrong to blame the government for this. The union have
:59:48. > :59:51.got their members into this mess. David Heath, the MP with one of the
:59:52. > :59:57.smallest majorities in the country, is standing down. It is a huge
:59:58. > :00:03.pressure. There comes a point where it is time to move on. Tend to look
:00:04. > :00:11.for something more regular and less stressful. Emir of Marlboro has been
:00:12. > :00:15.talking about the second big frame in his town. First jewellers shop
:00:16. > :00:27.was raided and now someone has made off with his chain of office. It is
:00:28. > :00:31.solid gold. `` big crime. Waiters pick up on David Heath s
:00:32. > :00:38.resignation. You know what it is like to be in a marginal
:00:39. > :00:42.constituency. Is it worth the heartache of being booted out? In
:00:43. > :00:46.politics, I did not understand how anyone can go into any election with
:00:47. > :00:50.the guaranteed to win, so you have to get used to the fact that you
:00:51. > :01:05.will lose some of them. In terms of David Heath, he has decided to go,
:01:06. > :01:12.probably hardly to do with calling `` probably partly to do with his
:01:13. > :01:15.stance on calling. You do not think this is a job for life, and it would
:01:16. > :01:23.be complacent to think like this. You do this to help able, and it is
:01:24. > :01:28.better having a majority of one than 10,000.
:01:29. > :01:32.Here today, gone tomorrow, true of all of us. Thank you for joining us
:01:33. > :01:36.today. which links in with this. Thank you
:01:37. > :01:45.to both of you for being my guests today.
:01:46. > :01:53.Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg
:01:54. > :01:59.kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love
:02:00. > :02:06.bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by
:02:07. > :02:10.the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.
:02:11. > :02:17.Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in
:02:18. > :02:23.the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those
:02:24. > :02:28.who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview
:02:29. > :02:39.that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on
:02:40. > :02:43.up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I
:02:44. > :02:48.do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly
:02:49. > :02:52.Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.
:02:53. > :02:57.I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal
:02:58. > :03:01.party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,
:03:02. > :03:06.fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should
:03:07. > :03:12.be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left,
:03:13. > :03:16.your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any
:03:17. > :03:24.organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look
:03:25. > :03:29.inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not
:03:30. > :03:33.want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of
:03:34. > :03:38.people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards
:03:39. > :03:41.and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have
:03:42. > :03:44.got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting
:03:45. > :03:51.the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and
:03:52. > :03:55.also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax
:03:56. > :03:58.and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and
:03:59. > :04:02.ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us
:04:03. > :04:05.credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able
:04:06. > :04:09.to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our
:04:10. > :04:15.policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward
:04:16. > :04:19.looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense
:04:20. > :04:24.that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore
:04:25. > :04:28.make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance
:04:29. > :04:36.himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free
:04:37. > :04:45.schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating
:04:46. > :04:48.area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and
:04:49. > :04:52.troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,
:04:53. > :04:55.saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other
:04:56. > :05:00.words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get
:05:01. > :05:02.on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our
:05:03. > :05:06.competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms
:05:07. > :05:11.of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are
:05:12. > :05:13.worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two
:05:14. > :05:20.thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are
:05:21. > :05:28.failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were
:05:29. > :05:31.the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting
:05:32. > :05:34.conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we
:05:35. > :05:37.are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which
:05:38. > :05:41.have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need
:05:42. > :05:46.to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good
:05:47. > :05:49.quality education in order to realise their full potential in
:05:50. > :05:56.life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I
:05:57. > :06:02.think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we
:06:03. > :06:05.should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be
:06:06. > :06:10.instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a
:06:11. > :06:14.restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is
:06:15. > :06:18.about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity
:06:19. > :06:22.in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education
:06:23. > :06:25.system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some
:06:26. > :06:30.schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this
:06:31. > :06:35.country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful
:06:36. > :06:48.stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.
:06:49. > :06:53.Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right
:06:54. > :07:00.word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the
:07:01. > :07:05.Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous
:07:06. > :07:08.suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal
:07:09. > :07:11.Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was
:07:12. > :07:16.founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned
:07:17. > :07:21.tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am
:07:22. > :07:25.not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this
:07:26. > :07:31.on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few
:07:32. > :07:34.liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,
:07:35. > :07:39.who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in
:07:40. > :07:42.the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,
:07:43. > :07:52.should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no
:07:53. > :07:57.political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested
:07:58. > :08:02.that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next
:08:03. > :08:06.election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The
:08:07. > :08:11.Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates
:08:12. > :08:14.they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of
:08:15. > :08:27.the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not
:08:28. > :08:33.from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of
:08:34. > :08:35.a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living
:08:36. > :08:39.standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it
:08:40. > :08:45.was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning
:08:46. > :08:50.the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from
:08:51. > :08:55.the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he
:08:56. > :08:58.makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a
:08:59. > :09:02.guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were
:09:03. > :09:05.there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the
:09:06. > :09:10.economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,
:09:11. > :09:15.they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne
:09:16. > :09:19.came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported
:09:20. > :09:23.free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but
:09:24. > :09:26.on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free
:09:27. > :09:30.schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David
:09:31. > :09:33.Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,
:09:34. > :09:43.which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming
:09:44. > :09:48.right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would
:09:49. > :09:50.not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like
:09:51. > :09:56.this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters
:09:57. > :10:01.their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it
:10:02. > :10:05.is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters
:10:06. > :10:12.from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not
:10:13. > :10:15.Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the
:10:16. > :10:22.Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I
:10:23. > :10:28.wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be
:10:29. > :10:33.organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they
:10:34. > :10:36.have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send
:10:37. > :10:45.messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.
:10:46. > :10:54.Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,
:10:55. > :11:00.according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s
:11:01. > :11:07.right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at
:11:08. > :11:11.Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from
:11:12. > :11:18.Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting
:11:19. > :11:22.that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power
:11:23. > :11:26.stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas
:11:27. > :11:30.to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the
:11:31. > :11:36.power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot
:11:37. > :11:40.of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your
:11:41. > :11:46.balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop
:11:47. > :11:50.with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which
:11:51. > :11:57.will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.
:11:58. > :12:01.It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after
:12:02. > :12:06.George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK
:12:07. > :12:15.Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate
:12:16. > :12:20.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and
:12:21. > :12:24.there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron
:12:25. > :12:26.trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were
:12:27. > :12:30.annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the
:12:31. > :12:36.Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George
:12:37. > :12:42.Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about
:12:43. > :12:49.any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five
:12:50. > :12:52.years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a
:12:53. > :13:03.special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go
:13:04. > :13:10.wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate
:13:11. > :13:13.this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving
:13:14. > :13:20.them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all
:13:21. > :13:25.eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the
:13:26. > :13:31.recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on
:13:32. > :13:36.which basis it can influence the result of the next general
:13:37. > :13:39.election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on
:13:40. > :13:43.Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the
:13:44. > :13:47.assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary
:13:48. > :13:56.policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means
:13:57. > :14:01.interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.
:14:02. > :14:04.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with
:14:05. > :14:08.prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be
:14:09. > :14:15.back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.