:00:40. > :00:53.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as
:00:54. > :00:57.Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to
:00:58. > :01:02.MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate
:01:03. > :01:06.the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that
:01:07. > :01:11.capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong
:01:12. > :01:16.arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be
:01:17. > :01:18.sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they
:01:19. > :01:31.should be covered up. In the West, boosting biddies
:01:32. > :01:34.profits. You can spend up to ?1 0 every 20 seconds in these
:01:35. > :01:39.authority is investigating -- investing thousands of pounds in a
:01:40. > :01:48.GPS tracking system to keep tabs on its staff.
:01:49. > :01:52.With me as always, the best and the brightest political panel, Helen
:01:53. > :01:55.Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who will be tweeting their
:01:56. > :02:00.humiliating climb-down is what they got wrong last week in the
:02:01. > :02:07.programme. If this can happen it to a Cabinet minister, what hope is
:02:08. > :02:10.there for anyone else? Thus the Home Affairs Select Committee concluded
:02:11. > :02:14.what many already thought about the treatment of Andrew Mitchell by
:02:15. > :02:19.three self-styled PC plebs. They met him to clear the air over what did
:02:20. > :02:22.or did not happen when he was prevented from ramming his bike
:02:23. > :02:27.through the Downing Street gates. But the officers gave the media and
:02:28. > :02:34.inaccurate account of that meeting. Two of them are even accused of
:02:35. > :02:35.misleading the Commons committee. The Independent Police Complaints
:02:36. > :02:41.Commission will now reopen there enquiry. This is not a story about
:02:42. > :02:48.Andrew Mitchell, it is about the police. Keith Vaz is often in high
:02:49. > :02:53.dudgeon and this is the highest dad and I have seen him in for some
:02:54. > :02:55.time. They could be held for contempt of Parliament and
:02:56. > :03:01.technically they could be sent to prison. It has blown up into an
:03:02. > :03:06.enormous story. I do not know what is worse, the police trying to
:03:07. > :03:09.stitch up a Cabinet member and try to mislead the media or the
:03:10. > :03:18.incompetence they have done it from day one. That is quite good. I would
:03:19. > :03:23.sleep more soundly at night if I knew the pleas were good at this. It
:03:24. > :03:28.is the incompetence that shocks me. And this is just a sideshow. We are
:03:29. > :03:32.still waiting on the main report as to what exactly happened outside
:03:33. > :03:37.Downing Street gates. But that not will be good for the police either.
:03:38. > :03:42.The file has gone from the Metropolitan police to the CPS, so
:03:43. > :03:48.we are limited about what we can say. This is about the police
:03:49. > :03:54.Federation. They were set up under statute in 1990 as a deal in which a
:03:55. > :03:58.police would not go on strike. This is a political campaign to get a
:03:59. > :04:02.Cabinet minister out and the legacy of this is the police Federation
:04:03. > :04:08.will have to be reformed. We will keep an eye on it. They were Ed
:04:09. > :04:15.Miliband's union backers, they swung the Labour leadership for him in
:04:16. > :04:19.2010. Now the Unite union looks like his biggest headache. The Sunday
:04:20. > :04:22.Times has seen extracts of the report into the alleged vote rigging
:04:23. > :04:30.to select a Labour candidate in Falkirk. There was evidence of
:04:31. > :04:34.coercion and Gregory as well as deliberate attempt to frustrate the
:04:35. > :04:39.enquiry. We will be speaking to Len McCluskey, the Unite union's General
:04:40. > :04:46.Secretary, in a moment. First out the saga began an almost ended up
:04:47. > :04:50.with the loss of 800 jobs at a petrochemical plant in Grangemouth.
:04:51. > :04:54.Unite were key players in the Grangemouth dispute and the union
:04:55. > :04:59.headed by Len McCluskey has come under fire for its intimidator Tariq
:05:00. > :05:02.tactics. In one instance demonstrators complete with an
:05:03. > :05:10.inflatable rat picketed the home of a INEOS director. The police were
:05:11. > :05:16.called. It was part of a strategy the union called leverage. But
:05:17. > :05:21.turning up at people's houses seems to represent an escalation. At the
:05:22. > :05:26.centre of the rout was Steve in deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS
:05:27. > :05:30.launched an investigation into him as he was suspected of using company
:05:31. > :05:35.time to engineer the selection of labour's candidate in Falkirk. That
:05:36. > :05:42.candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans
:05:43. > :05:52.resigned last week and denies any wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic
:05:53. > :05:58.climb-down by Unite union. Len McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to
:05:59. > :06:07.the Sunday Times we now know what is in this labour report on the Falkirk
:06:08. > :06:11.vote rigging. Forgery, coercion trickery, manipulation. You must be
:06:12. > :06:19.ashamed of how Unite union behaved in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article
:06:20. > :06:23.is lazy journalism. There is nothing new in the article. This was all
:06:24. > :06:29.dealt with by the Labour Party in the summer. We rejected those
:06:30. > :06:33.allegations then and we said we had done nothing wrong and both the
:06:34. > :06:39.Labour Party and the police in Scotland indicated there had been no
:06:40. > :06:44.wrongdoing. The report itself says you were trying to thwart the
:06:45. > :06:48.investigation. First you tried to fix the selection of a candidate to
:06:49. > :06:54.get your woman in and then you thwarted the investigation into the
:06:55. > :06:59.dirty deeds. The reality is the Labour Party report was deeply
:07:00. > :07:05.flawed. The Labour Party then instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to
:07:06. > :07:09.do an in-depth investigation and during that investigation they got
:07:10. > :07:14.to the bottom of what had happened and they decided there was no
:07:15. > :07:20.wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I was so confident we had done
:07:21. > :07:24.nothing, I called for an independent enquiry. They were forced to
:07:25. > :07:27.conclude there was no wrongdoing because the people who originally
:07:28. > :07:32.complained changed their evidence and we now know they did so because
:07:33. > :07:39.Unite union officials helped them to rewrite their retraction and Stevie
:07:40. > :07:45.Deans approved it. That is not true. We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into
:07:46. > :07:53.the public arena and what is that all about? Who is leaking this? They
:07:54. > :07:59.showed the Unite union was rewriting the retractions. This interview
:08:00. > :08:04.would go a lot better if you are allowed me to finish the question
:08:05. > :08:12.that you asked. These e-mails were put into the public arena by the PR
:08:13. > :08:17.company from INEOS. Why are they doing this? The truth of the matter
:08:18. > :08:21.is that all of the investigations that took place demonstrate there
:08:22. > :08:26.was nothing to answer. This idea that the Unite union has rewritten
:08:27. > :08:32.and the evidence from the families has been withdrawn, the families are
:08:33. > :08:40.a part of Stevie deems' family. They clarified the position. Do you deny
:08:41. > :08:47.that union officials were involved in the retractions? I deny it
:08:48. > :08:50.completely. This is important. Independent solicitors to witness
:08:51. > :08:58.statements from the family and they are the ones that were influencing
:08:59. > :09:04.the Labour Party with the position is clarified and there is no case to
:09:05. > :09:14.answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw their retractions? It is his family.
:09:15. > :09:18.So you do not deny it? It is his family. This is an ordinary, decent
:09:19. > :09:24.family who were faced with the full weight of the pleas, a forensic
:09:25. > :09:31.solicitor. Of course they spoke to Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a
:09:32. > :09:37.cesspit. Does it not need an independent investigation? This is a
:09:38. > :09:42.trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all the
:09:43. > :09:48.demands. The media, the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, the Conservative
:09:49. > :09:56.mouthpiece, they are laying tracks for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband
:09:57. > :10:00.should not fall into them. Since when did it become part of an
:10:01. > :10:09.industrial dispute to send mobs to the home of company families. This
:10:10. > :10:16.is a legitimate form of protest and it is a silent protest. We believe
:10:17. > :10:20.if faceless directors are making decisions that cripple communities,
:10:21. > :10:28.they cannot expect to simply drift back to their own leafy suburbia and
:10:29. > :10:35.not be countable. This is silent protest. It is lawful. It may be
:10:36. > :10:40.silent in Grangemouth, but it was not silent elsewhere. You went with
:10:41. > :10:47.a giant rat, loud-hailers telling everybody the neighbour was evil.
:10:48. > :10:53.No, we did not. You had loud-hailers, you even encouraged
:10:54. > :11:05.passing children in Grangemouth to join in. That is nonsense. Look at
:11:06. > :11:08.the rat. The reality is the Grangemouth community was going to
:11:09. > :11:15.be decimated, Grangemouth was going to become a ghost town. I reject
:11:16. > :11:19.totally this idea there were loud-hailers and children involved.
:11:20. > :11:26.That is a lie perpetrated by the Daily Mail. But you have used these
:11:27. > :11:33.tactics in other disputes. We have used the tactics in other disputes,
:11:34. > :11:38.but we have not used loud-hailers at people's homes. Because the labour
:11:39. > :11:44.laws are so restrictive we have to look at every available means that
:11:45. > :11:49.we can protest. It is an outrage, an absolute outrage, that this is
:11:50. > :11:56.happening to British workers in the 21st-century. It could not happen
:11:57. > :12:01.elsewhere. Is not intimidation the wider hallmark of your union? You
:12:02. > :12:06.were quoted as saying to do whatever it takes during your attempts to
:12:07. > :12:14.take over the Labour Falkirk constituency. You were instructing
:12:15. > :12:24.to dig out the nasty stuff on your opponents. That is not true. Let's
:12:25. > :12:30.see these e-mails? This is a con trick. Nobody is looking to dig
:12:31. > :12:36.out... This is the words of your legal services advisor. Unite has
:12:37. > :12:41.tried to instigate a revival of trade union values within the Labour
:12:42. > :12:46.Party. That is what Ed Miliband wanted us to do. As soon as we
:12:47. > :12:52.started to be in any way ineffective, there were screams and
:12:53. > :12:57.howls of derision. When the company started to investigate Stevie Deans,
:12:58. > :13:02.your friend, your campaign manager, that he was using company time to
:13:03. > :13:06.moonlight on the job, you called INEOS and said unless you stop the
:13:07. > :13:13.investigation we will bring Grangemouth to a standstill. I never
:13:14. > :13:22.said that at all. You brought it to a standstill. We never brought it to
:13:23. > :13:27.a standstill, the company did. Who says that I said that we would bring
:13:28. > :13:32.it to a standstill? You have read it in the newspapers. You should not
:13:33. > :13:38.believe everything. I did not make that threat to the management. You
:13:39. > :13:45.carried the threat out. You instigated an overtime ban and a
:13:46. > :13:48.work to rule. And that is what Grangemouth to a standstill because
:13:49. > :13:54.the company decided to close the petrochemical site down. Because
:13:55. > :14:00.Stevie Deans was suspended due introduced industrial action? Our
:14:01. > :14:07.members in Grangemouth felt he was being unfairly treated. In the end
:14:08. > :14:11.you're grandstanding almost cost Scotland is most important
:14:12. > :14:17.industrial facility. The day was saved by your total capitulation.
:14:18. > :14:25.Grandstanding, capitulation and humiliation are grand phrases. There
:14:26. > :14:29.is nothing about capitulation. Len McCluskey did not wake up one day
:14:30. > :14:35.and decide to have a dispute with INEOS. The workers in that factory
:14:36. > :14:39.democratically elect their shop stewards to represent them and to
:14:40. > :14:47.express to management their concerns and their views. That is what
:14:48. > :14:51.happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has condemned your union's handling of
:14:52. > :14:57.Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have you considered your position? Jack
:14:58. > :15:01.Straw and others in the Labour Party, you have to ask them what
:15:02. > :15:07.their agenda is. I am not interested in what he says. The truth of the
:15:08. > :15:14.matter is we responded to the requirements and needs of our
:15:15. > :15:19.members. At a mass meeting last Monday 100% supported their shop
:15:20. > :15:23.stewards and their union. We will continue to stand shoulder to
:15:24. > :15:28.shoulder with our members when they are faced with difficult situations.
:15:29. > :15:35.You have lost all the union rights. You have had to agree to a no strike
:15:36. > :15:41.rule, you have lost pension rights. We have not lost rights at all, we
:15:42. > :15:46.are still working with the company to implement its survival plan. The
:15:47. > :15:50.Prime Minister is always attacking unions and just lately he has taken
:15:51. > :15:57.to praising the automotive industry. Jaguar Land Rover,
:15:58. > :16:02.Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all Unite union members were the shop
:16:03. > :16:07.stewards are engaged positively to implement survival plans and to make
:16:08. > :16:12.a success for the company. That is what we do, but by the same token we
:16:13. > :16:16.stand shoulder to shoulder with our members who are in struggle and we
:16:17. > :16:23.will always do that and we will not be cowed by media attacks on us Is
:16:24. > :16:36.your leadership not proving to be as disastrous for the members as Arthur
:16:37. > :16:41.Scargill was for the NUM? My membership is growing. I am
:16:42. > :16:45.accountable to my members, two are executive, and the one thing they
:16:46. > :16:49.will know is that when they want me standing shoulder to shoulder with
:16:50. > :16:52.them when they have a problem, I will be there, despite the
:16:53. > :17:07.disgraceful attacks launched on us by the media.
:17:08. > :17:09."A country ready to welcome your investment which values your
:17:10. > :17:11.friendship and will never exclude anyone because of their race,
:17:12. > :17:15.religion, colour or creed." The words of the Prime minister at the
:17:16. > :17:18.World Islamic Economic Forum which was hosted for the first time in
:17:19. > :17:21.London this week. The PM's warm words are sure to be welcomed by
:17:22. > :17:23.British Muslims who have endured a spate of negative headlines. There's
:17:24. > :17:26.been the controversy over the wearing of the veil, attitudes to
:17:27. > :17:29.women, and the radicalisation of some young British Muslims. In a
:17:30. > :17:32.moment I'll be talking to the Secretary General of the Muslim
:17:33. > :17:43.Council of Britain, Farooq Murad. First - here's Giles Dilnot. The
:17:44. > :17:47.call to Friday prayers at the east London Mosque which has strong links
:17:48. > :17:52.with the Muslim Council of Britain, one of the more vocal groups amongst
:17:53. > :17:57.British Muslims. Despite the fact it frequently happens, it is neither
:17:58. > :18:01.helpful nor accurate to describe the British Muslim community. There are
:18:02. > :18:05.so many different sects, traditions, cultures and
:18:06. > :18:09.nationalities, it is more accurate to describe the British Muslim
:18:10. > :18:13.communities, but there is one question being put to them - are
:18:14. > :18:23.they doing enough internally to address some challenging issues Are
:18:24. > :18:27.they willing to confront radicalisation, attitudes to
:18:28. > :18:32.non-muslins, two women, and cases of sexual exploitation in a meaningful
:18:33. > :18:41.way? A number of them say no, not nearly enough. This former jihad de
:18:42. > :18:46.has spent ten years telling young Muslim teenagers how they can reject
:18:47. > :18:50.extremist radicalisation, using Outward Bound courses and community
:18:51. > :19:02.work, but he and others doing this work thing -- think some elders are
:19:03. > :19:11.failing the youngsters. This has been going on for decades, one
:19:12. > :19:15.figures -- thing is said in public to please people but in private
:19:16. > :19:21.something very different is being said and the messages are being
:19:22. > :19:27.confused. Some of the young people, it pushes them further into a space
:19:28. > :19:34.where they are vulnerable for radical recruiters. For many Muslim
:19:35. > :19:39.youngsters, life is about living 1's faith within an increasingly secular
:19:40. > :19:42.society, a struggle not helped if rigid interpretations of the Koran
:19:43. > :19:54.are being preached, say some sectors. Some practices often don't
:19:55. > :19:57.make sense in 21st-century Britain, and you are perhaps creating
:19:58. > :20:01.obstacles if you stick to those and it is perhaps better to let go of
:20:02. > :20:08.those cultural problems, especially when they need to clear injustices
:20:09. > :20:12.like forced marriage, reticence to talk about grooming for example or
:20:13. > :20:17.discrimination against women. There is a long list but I am very clear
:20:18. > :20:25.that in fact the bad Muslim is the one who sticks to unflinching,
:20:26. > :20:31.narrow dogmatic fundamentalist perception of religion. One issue
:20:32. > :20:40.often focused on is the wearing of minicab. Polling suggests 80% of
:20:41. > :20:55.Britons would favour a ban in public places. -- the niqab. Many people
:20:56. > :21:06.don't seem to recognise the legacy of the niqab. Many people preach
:21:07. > :21:10.that women should be sidelined and that they are sexual objects that
:21:11. > :21:15.should be covered up and the preservation of morality falls on
:21:16. > :21:19.their shoulders. The Muslim Council of Britain recently got praise for
:21:20. > :21:25.holding a conference on combating sexual exploitation. In the wake of
:21:26. > :21:29.abuse cases that had involved predominantly Pakistani men. For one
:21:30. > :21:36.man who has followed the story for some years, the Muslim Council of
:21:37. > :21:42.Britain needs to do much more. We need to get along together and if
:21:43. > :21:50.things like attitudes towards the normal slim girl in stark contrast
:21:51. > :21:53.to the expression of honour and chastity of the Muslim girl, your
:21:54. > :22:00.sister or daughter, are such that actions that would be an fought off
:22:01. > :22:07.with a slim girl becomes permissible with a white girl, then we are all
:22:08. > :22:12.in trouble. To some, attitudes to women are not limited to sexual
:22:13. > :22:17.interactions at the very structures of life in Muslim communities and
:22:18. > :22:20.indeed the Muslim Council of Britain itself. I would like to ask the
:22:21. > :22:28.Muslim Council of Britain what they are doing about the fact that very
:22:29. > :22:36.few mosques give voices to are doing about the fact that very
:22:37. > :22:37.the fact that someone women are experiencing female genital
:22:38. > :22:42.mutilation and forced marriages what about the women who are getting
:22:43. > :22:46.married and their marriages are not being registered and they are being
:22:47. > :22:51.left homeless and denied maintenance rights, what about the fact there
:22:52. > :22:54.are sharia rights that have been found to be discriminating against
:22:55. > :22:59.women, and the fact there are men in this country who continue to hold
:23:00. > :23:06.misogynistic views about women, what are you doing? The occasional press
:23:07. > :23:11.release will not solve this problem of a deeply patriarchal community.
:23:12. > :23:15.That all of these issues can be exploited to the point of Islam
:23:16. > :23:21.phobia is not doubted, but many Muslims feel that unless the
:23:22. > :23:28.communities do tackle this openly, a big cultural gap will exist between
:23:29. > :23:31.the two. And the Secretary General of the
:23:32. > :23:36.Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad, joins me now. One visible
:23:37. > :23:45.sign that sets muslins aside is the veils that cover women's faces. Do
:23:46. > :23:54.you think it makes them impossible to be part of mainstream society?
:23:55. > :23:58.The niqab is not an obligatory requirement. But do you accept that
:23:59. > :24:04.those who wear it are cutting themselves off from mainstream
:24:05. > :24:15.society? Some people do, and whilst wearing niqab, some of them are
:24:16. > :24:18.working in various walks of life successfully and it is seen as a
:24:19. > :24:23.faith requirement, but it is a red herring in the sense that it applies
:24:24. > :24:28.to such a small number of Muslim girls. For many Muslim preachers,
:24:29. > :24:38.isn't separation precisely the point of the niqab? Certainly not, if you
:24:39. > :24:44.look at the Muslim women in the public sphere, we have many very
:24:45. > :24:54.successful women. But not the ones who are veiled. Not in the public
:24:55. > :25:00.arena as such, but the veil is a practice which is practised by a
:25:01. > :25:07.very small number. Do you favour it? I personally think it is not a
:25:08. > :25:11.requirement. But do you think women should wear the veil? I think it is
:25:12. > :25:17.wrong to force women to wear the veil. I asked if in your opinion
:25:18. > :25:24.women should wear the veil? It is important not to force women to wear
:25:25. > :25:28.the veil. Should they of their free choice where the veil? A lot of
:25:29. > :25:33.individuals do things out of their free choice which I do not approve
:25:34. > :25:38.of, I don't think it is conducive it helps their cause, but I do not have
:25:39. > :25:43.the right to take their choice away from them. I am still unsure if you
:25:44. > :25:49.think it is a good thing or a bad thing. Are not many Muslim women in
:25:50. > :25:52.this country being forced by Muslim preachers and often their male
:25:53. > :25:57.relations who want to keep Muslim women their place? As I said, it is
:25:58. > :26:06.wrong for anyone to force Muslim women. But how would we ever know in
:26:07. > :26:12.a family if a woman was being forced? Exactly, we don't know what
:26:13. > :26:18.is going on in people 's homes and what pressure is being applied. I
:26:19. > :26:21.want you to look at this picture, very popular on Islamic websites,
:26:22. > :26:28.and it shows the women who is wearing the niqab having a straight
:26:29. > :26:33.route to heaven, and the other Muslim woman dressed in western gear
:26:34. > :26:41.condemned to hell. Do you consider that a proper message for Muslim
:26:42. > :26:47.women? Not at all, I don't. So any Islamic websites in Britain... The
:26:48. > :26:50.Muslim Council of Britain is an organisation of five affiliates from
:26:51. > :26:56.across the country and this is not coming from any of them. As I said,
:26:57. > :27:02.those minority views propagated by individuals should not be used to
:27:03. > :27:08.represent Muslim community. So that would not have the support of the
:27:09. > :27:12.Muslim Council of Britain? It would not have the support. What about the
:27:13. > :27:25.Muslim free school that requires children as young as 11 to wear a
:27:26. > :27:35.black veil outside of school? Do you agree with that? I am not sure
:27:36. > :27:44.exactly what the policy is... I have just told you, do you agree that
:27:45. > :27:49.girls as young as 11 should wear a black burka outside of school? I
:27:50. > :28:02.don't think it should be imposed on anybody. But this is the desired
:28:03. > :28:06.dress School of the Muslim females. I am asking for your view. I said it
:28:07. > :28:13.at the beginning that I do not think it should be imposed. Would you send
:28:14. > :28:27.your daughter to a school that would wear a black burka at the age of 11?
:28:28. > :28:30.Would you? No. It seems that some muslins are determined to segregate
:28:31. > :28:37.young Muslim girls right from the start to very early from society. It
:28:38. > :28:46.is not their segregation as such, I would say that there are faith
:28:47. > :28:49.schools, if you look at an Islamic girls school in Blackburn in a
:28:50. > :28:57.traditional setting, it has come the top of the league table this year in
:28:58. > :29:03.the secondary school league tables. But it doesn't make 11-year-olds
:29:04. > :29:10.wear black burkas. Many of those girls go on to have a successful
:29:11. > :29:18.career. Not wearing black burkas. I am sure there are examples of women
:29:19. > :29:21.who do have successful careers. There is a very conservative
:29:22. > :29:33.movement from the continent on Islam, and the issue supposedly
:29:34. > :29:41.based on Islamic law on their website. Here is one of their recent
:29:42. > :29:45.judgements. The female is encouraged to remain within the confines of her
:29:46. > :29:49.home as much as possible, she should not come out of the home without
:29:50. > :29:55.need and necessity. What do you think of that? We need to say the
:29:56. > :29:59.whole context of that quote. They are saying they should stay at home
:30:00. > :30:12.as much as possible, do you agree with that? I see many Muslim women
:30:13. > :30:17.who are walking about... But this is what the mosque is recommending
:30:18. > :30:38.women should do. The practice is quite the contrary. Let me show you
:30:39. > :30:43.another one. Another Fatwa. Do you agree with that? These have been
:30:44. > :30:50.picked out from material dating back to different cultural settings and
:30:51. > :30:57.in practice they are not applied. This is advice being given as we
:30:58. > :31:03.speak. This is not being practised. Do you agree with it? No, not at
:31:04. > :31:07.all. These are from the DL Monday mosques, how come 72 of these
:31:08. > :31:25.mosques are affiliated to your counsel? There may be publications
:31:26. > :31:31.from one of their scholars, but they have been written in countries
:31:32. > :31:36.abroad and translated. This is advice being given to young women
:31:37. > :31:43.now. They are affiliated to the Muslim Council of Britain. Do you
:31:44. > :31:47.ever speak to them about that? The Muslim Council is a very broad
:31:48. > :31:53.organisation. We are working on lots of common issues to create a
:31:54. > :32:01.community which positively integrates. Did you ever speak to
:32:02. > :32:08.them to say this is not appropriate for British Muslims? There may be
:32:09. > :32:16.certain ad buys and publications available, but people make their
:32:17. > :32:26.choices. So it is OK for your organisation to issue things like
:32:27. > :32:34.that? Many of these things will fall under scrutiny and we need to create
:32:35. > :32:40.that. Why do only 26% of British mosques have facilities for women?
:32:41. > :32:46.If you go back to the requirement of prayer, it was not obligatory for
:32:47. > :32:51.women to come to the masks to prayer. When a poorer community
:32:52. > :32:59.began putting up mosques at the very beginning in terraced houses... Did
:33:00. > :33:08.you have a policy to encourage them? Is it on your website? It is in our
:33:09. > :33:16.practices that 20% of the council have to be female. Coming out of
:33:17. > :33:22.this movement there is a conscious stream of superiority between
:33:23. > :33:26.Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at this quote. He is a well-known
:33:27. > :33:50.picture in this country. That is what he wants to stop. I
:33:51. > :33:58.disagree with that. We believe we live in this society and Muslims in
:33:59. > :34:04.any society of the world, and they have historically lived as
:34:05. > :34:10.minorities in many countries... You would this associate yourself from
:34:11. > :34:17.that? Why do you allow people like that to be affiliated to you? The
:34:18. > :34:21.requirement is for any organisation to be affiliated is that they are
:34:22. > :34:27.bound by the Charity commission s rules and regulations. We only
:34:28. > :34:35.accept those who are under the law of this country. This is a matter of
:34:36. > :34:44.taste. Let me move on to a bigger issue. In 2009 you signed the
:34:45. > :34:50.Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul declaration was signed. Do you still
:34:51. > :35:02.support it? No, we never signed it or supported it. One of your leading
:35:03. > :35:08.lights signed it. In the media mainstream he defended his position.
:35:09. > :35:16.You have this associated yourself from it? What is wrong with that? I
:35:17. > :35:22.am not sure about the declaration because we disassociated ourselves.
:35:23. > :35:31.Before reading it? We did not sign it. You have not read it? I do not
:35:32. > :35:37.know all the aspects of the declaration, but at the time in the
:35:38. > :35:47.national newspapers and media there was a discussion and a debate and it
:35:48. > :35:54.was highlighted that that was not what was meant by the declaration.
:35:55. > :36:02.When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From
:36:03. > :36:08.day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are
:36:09. > :36:14.personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of
:36:15. > :36:25.extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the
:36:26. > :36:29.mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described
:36:30. > :36:32.by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another
:36:33. > :36:38.speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad
:36:39. > :36:43.is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop
:36:44. > :36:51.extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?
:36:52. > :36:57.We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or
:36:58. > :37:01.supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is
:37:02. > :37:07.a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is
:37:08. > :37:13.a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told
:37:14. > :37:18.their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to
:37:19. > :37:28.speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a
:37:29. > :37:35.Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did
:37:36. > :37:41.not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and
:37:42. > :37:50.have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I
:37:51. > :37:56.completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,
:37:57. > :38:01.the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the
:38:02. > :38:07.toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted
:38:08. > :38:12.among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a
:38:13. > :38:20.non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which
:38:21. > :38:27.embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim
:38:28. > :38:33.community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which
:38:34. > :38:37.are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our
:38:38. > :38:44.view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The
:38:45. > :38:49.work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all
:38:50. > :38:54.associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are
:38:55. > :39:06.watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to joke
:39:07. > :39:11.Thank you, Andrew, and welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West
:39:12. > :39:14.Coming up this week: Forget fruit machines or placing a bet on the
:39:15. > :39:20.horses. You can pump ?100 every 20 seconds
:39:21. > :39:23.into one of these. So is it time for politicians to get tough with
:39:24. > :39:27.bookies making a fast buck from gamblers?
:39:28. > :39:31.We won't be taking bets on who will win the political debate here on the
:39:32. > :39:34.programme today. Joining us is the Pensions Minister Steve Webb and a
:39:35. > :39:44.Labour candidate in Northeast Somerset, Todd Foreman. Let's talk
:39:45. > :39:49.about pensions. Say you have someone paying ?100 a month into their
:39:50. > :39:55.pension, a modest amount. Over the lifetime of that policy, how much is
:39:56. > :40:01.going on charges? If you are paying 1%, which sounds innocuous, although
:40:02. > :40:06.your tire `` over your entire life, you could find ?100,000 in charges.
:40:07. > :40:10.We said we cannot allow that to happen and we will look at how we
:40:11. > :40:14.can cap charges so that even more of people's money is going into
:40:15. > :40:19.pensions and not costs. You're capping it at 0.5%. A lot of charges
:40:20. > :40:26.are below that, so pension companies will think, we can get away with it.
:40:27. > :40:30.The big firms, supermarkets and banks have chosen pension schemes
:40:31. > :40:34.for employees. They have buying power and can get a low costs. We're
:40:35. > :40:39.going to go through every employer in the land to make sure that
:40:40. > :40:44.everybody can have access to reasonable pension. Why should
:40:45. > :40:47.anyone even bother with a pension when it is going to be frittered
:40:48. > :40:53.away on charges? You might as well wait and let the state take care of
:40:54. > :40:59.you. The big difference is the fun puts money in, the Government puts
:41:00. > :41:03.money in and you put money in. In a sense, your ?1 becomes ?2 overnight.
:41:04. > :41:08.If you want more than the basic state pension, which will be about
:41:09. > :41:13.?7,000 a year, if you want more than that, to have to do something about
:41:14. > :41:19.it. People are fed up with big companies creaming off profits from
:41:20. > :41:26.people. Is there an opportunity from Labour here? I think there is a huge
:41:27. > :41:30.opportunity here. As with energy companies, this is a market that
:41:31. > :41:34.really isn't working. Part of that is because there isn't enough
:41:35. > :41:36.transparency. I would applaud some steps that the Government have taken
:41:37. > :41:42.in terms of transparency of pensions. That is what Labour and Ed
:41:43. > :41:46.Miliband have been calling for for a long time. The first question you
:41:47. > :41:50.had for Steve was, how much are people paying in terms of charges
:41:51. > :41:54.for pensions? It is important people know that, because whilst these
:41:55. > :41:59.regulations will bring in transparency on annual fees, Labour
:42:00. > :42:05.puts down a `` puts down an amendment that will require
:42:06. > :42:08.transparency for all fees. We would take it that stepfather to have even
:42:09. > :42:16.more transparency about the fees people pay. `` we would stick it
:42:17. > :42:20.that step further. Forget that machines are having a flutter on the
:42:21. > :42:23.horses, today, except to the betting shop can have much higher stakes. A
:42:24. > :42:26.new type of betting machine has proved a bonanza for bookies. It is
:42:27. > :42:31.growing political pressure for change.
:42:32. > :42:34.Every walk down the high street and the watch a town where he lives is
:42:35. > :42:40.difficult for James Petherick. He has lost a fortune in his
:42:41. > :42:46.bookmakers. He has been a problem gambler for 20 years. I have been
:42:47. > :42:53.homeless, slept in my car, lost jobs through my gambling. I'm trying to
:42:54. > :42:57.give up. But for some reason, the addiction takes hold and you're
:42:58. > :43:02.straight back in the doing it again. With these terminals, I was doing it
:43:03. > :43:06.twice as much, twice as fast. These are the machines he has comfortable.
:43:07. > :43:11.The cold fixed odds betting terminals. They look like other slot
:43:12. > :43:19.machines but the stakes can be huge. You can plan them ?100 every 20
:43:20. > :43:24.seconds. `` you can put in. Because of the speed of play, you do not get
:43:25. > :43:27.time to think. When you go to a casino, you have one minute and a
:43:28. > :43:33.half. On these machines, it is so quick. It is almost as fast as
:43:34. > :43:42.playing a fruit machine. It is 0p ago. These will machines are ?1 0 a
:43:43. > :43:48.spin. Shop can have up to four machines. These betting terminals
:43:49. > :43:51.have proved a big moneyspinner for bookmakers. New shops have opened
:43:52. > :43:57.up, especially in less well`off areas. Here in South Bristol, there
:43:58. > :44:00.are no less than 19 bookies. Customers using the machines last
:44:01. > :44:11.year blew three and a half million pounds. The Bath MP Don Foster rated
:44:12. > :44:15.at his party conference. If you look at the figures, the vast majority of
:44:16. > :44:20.profits, something like 70%, are coming from these fixed odds betting
:44:21. > :44:24.terminals. When you have clusters of these shops, you almost have a high
:44:25. > :44:30.street casino with more high`powered machines than you actually find in a
:44:31. > :44:34.properly regulated, better supervised casino. He would like the
:44:35. > :44:41.stakes slashed. Others want to go further. Will the Prime Minister
:44:42. > :44:45.consider banning these addictive machines, as has recently happened
:44:46. > :44:50.in Ireland? He got a hint that there could be change. It is worth having
:44:51. > :44:55.a proper look at this issue to see what we can do to make sure that,
:44:56. > :45:02.yes, we want a bookmakers that are not overregulated, but any other
:45:03. > :45:07.hand, a fair approach and a decent approach to prevent problem
:45:08. > :45:12.gambling. This is the first of my video diaries regarding my gambling
:45:13. > :45:17.addiction. James Petherick resorted to baring his soul online with the
:45:18. > :45:22.diary of a compulsive gambler. There is no point to my life, no point to
:45:23. > :45:29.anything. I gambled for most of my life, for 30 years. It is only now
:45:30. > :45:36.that I have opened onto friends family. And the rest of the world as
:45:37. > :45:41.well in my future blog. That is how I managed to give up. He's just
:45:42. > :45:48.about coping. Thousands of others aren't.
:45:49. > :45:52.Joining us is James Barrow from the Association of British Bookmakers.
:45:53. > :45:58.Well, long. These machines are totally responsible, aren't they?
:45:59. > :46:01.They are not. There is no evidence to suggest they are any different to
:46:02. > :46:05.other gambling products. Research has shown problem gamblers
:46:06. > :46:10.participate in a variety of different forms of gambling. We have
:46:11. > :46:13.to put this in perspective. We have 10 million customers who enjoy the
:46:14. > :46:17.entertainment we have in our shops, and the overwhelming majority gamble
:46:18. > :46:25.responsibly. However, we ask responsible businesses to help with
:46:26. > :46:31.those who have problems. You can put ?100 into one of these machines in
:46:32. > :46:37.20 seconds. The average bet is about ?10. To try and do more recently, we
:46:38. > :46:40.have launched a court to protect players. It is world`leading and
:46:41. > :46:45.involves better training for shop staff, so they can identify problem
:46:46. > :46:49.gamblers, better leaflets in the shops, and allows players on the
:46:50. > :46:53.gaming machines to set limits on how much they spend and how much they
:46:54. > :46:58.stay on the machine. How much profit do these machines make in a week?
:46:59. > :47:08.The average would`be 600 or ?70 a week. Do they ever lose? In the long
:47:09. > :47:12.run, the bookmakers will win. But the machines are always programmes
:47:13. > :47:20.to make a profit? The reason it is high`stakes, is because of a high
:47:21. > :47:24.return to players. I have done a bit of research before I came on here.
:47:25. > :47:28.In this posh area where we're sitting now, I cannot find any
:47:29. > :47:37.bookies. And on the working there are six. `` in and working`class
:47:38. > :47:42.area. The number of bookmakers in any location correlates to the
:47:43. > :47:46.population of that area. For example, in London, Westminster has
:47:47. > :47:51.the greatest number of betting shops. You have to remember that the
:47:52. > :47:57.number of betting shops is 8500 down from 16,000 in the 1960s. We
:47:58. > :48:01.employ 3000 people in the South West, we pay taxes, and at a time
:48:02. > :48:06.when it is needed, we generate footfall in the high street. So it
:48:07. > :48:11.is a coincidence that in some of the poor areas, there is nothing but
:48:12. > :48:15.bookies in the high street? That is not the case. We target commercial
:48:16. > :48:18.centres. If you look at the graph, it correlates the number of people
:48:19. > :48:26.in the area. It is well that is demand for our products. Let's bring
:48:27. > :48:30.in the politicians. Congratulations, gambling is one industry which must
:48:31. > :48:35.be booming under the Coalition. What we have just held as incredibly
:48:36. > :48:46.complacent. Don Foster is absolutely right. Manage gambling and a number
:48:47. > :48:48.of book will `` bookmakers. In the past, councils have not been able to
:48:49. > :48:52.say we do not want too many bookies on the high street. These machines
:48:53. > :48:57.must be controlled. James said in his film, I do not have time to
:48:58. > :49:00.think. I just want to get on with it. People out of control and need
:49:01. > :49:09.support and help, not just be told to read as leaflet. It is like
:49:10. > :49:11.Vegas, isn't it? I agree this is an issue in terms of hearing about
:49:12. > :49:15.these lower income areas having more of these shops. It seems they also
:49:16. > :49:21.have this evil twin in the high street also coming in. I would like
:49:22. > :49:25.to see more powerful local councils to stop these and for more local
:49:26. > :49:32.people to shape the kind of high street they want. We have worked
:49:33. > :49:36.very hard with our new codes to make sure people do not get into trouble.
:49:37. > :49:39.As James said in his clip, we don't want problem gamblers at all. Val
:49:40. > :49:45.d'Or is always open and B are willing to proactively engage with
:49:46. > :49:51.local councils. `` our door is always open. If you're only taking
:49:52. > :49:57.2% and taking hundreds of pounds, there must be a phenomenal amount of
:49:58. > :50:02.money going through these machines. That is not the case at all. The
:50:03. > :50:07.average stake is ?10. It is as a sports bets. You think people on
:50:08. > :50:15.benefits should be allowed to gamble? I do not want to tell people
:50:16. > :50:18.how to spend the money. People on benefits have to spend most of what
:50:19. > :50:23.they have an essential. But you have to protect people against, as the
:50:24. > :50:29.man said in the film, when you have lost control, a problem gamblers not
:50:30. > :50:33.making a measure of choice. It is an addiction. You cannot expose people
:50:34. > :50:38.to these things. Why is David Cameron reluctant to bring in
:50:39. > :50:42.tougher rules? I'm not sure he is. In Government, we are wary of
:50:43. > :50:47.overregulating in general. He said he would have a serious look at it.
:50:48. > :50:56.You are planning more shops, is that right? No, it is not. Shop numbers
:50:57. > :51:00.are down in the last ten years. We hope to protect people. Problem
:51:01. > :51:09.gamblers in this country are less than 1% and they want to do just
:51:10. > :51:11.that for the. `` ridges that father. Independent councillors in Froome in
:51:12. > :51:17.Somerset tried to wrestle local services away from politicians in
:51:18. > :51:25.the county and district councils. But will they be able to run things
:51:26. > :51:29.better and more cheaply? Historic Frome. Famous for
:51:30. > :51:32.clothmaking, its hoard of Roman coins, and a certain racing driver.
:51:33. > :51:35.These streets haven't seen riots since the 1700s, but now some say a
:51:36. > :51:44.political revolution's underway It started with this lot.
:51:45. > :51:50.Independent candidates sang their way to success in the town council
:51:51. > :51:53.election two years ago. Since then they've bumped up the precept, and
:51:54. > :52:01.taken on services from the county and district councils. This is
:52:02. > :52:04.Palmer Street ` Frome Town Council's planning to resurface it with
:52:05. > :52:10.cobbles ` normally the domain of the County Council. They're also taking
:52:11. > :52:15.on the showfield from the District Council, and want control of the
:52:16. > :52:18.town's main car park too. This week, the town council rounded up the
:52:19. > :52:28.three tiers of local Government for a meeting they called One Frome
:52:29. > :52:30.Working together. It is not about sovereignty or will not ship, it is
:52:31. > :52:40.about trying to deal with the people we serve. I find tonight has not let
:52:41. > :52:44.me up in terms of where we're going. There is something we need to do.
:52:45. > :52:52.The average person on the street will not understand why the councils
:52:53. > :52:55.cannot work together in a way that is productive. It wasn't plain
:52:56. > :52:58.sailing, but not much that's happened in Frome recently has been.
:52:59. > :53:04.If you talk to the woman on the street and said to her, do you know
:53:05. > :53:10.that we do not talk together? They would say, that is not the way I
:53:11. > :53:12.want my democracy to work. We should be talking rationally about where
:53:13. > :53:17.cuts might, and what the impact might be on the town. Mel Usher s no
:53:18. > :53:20.stranger to politics ` he was chief executive of one of the biggest
:53:21. > :53:26.district councils in the country ` but now says he sees the value of
:53:27. > :53:29.smaller scale Government. Towns like this should begin to take the local
:53:30. > :53:33.decision`making and perhaps decide their own destiny in the future If
:53:34. > :53:38.we do not, I do not know who will do that. I would find it helpful if we
:53:39. > :53:43.had a more clear direction. But not everyone's sure about the town
:53:44. > :53:48.council's rise to power. If the town council takes on more services, the
:53:49. > :53:54.council to will not go down because it is really cut. What you have then
:53:55. > :53:57.is a situation of double taxation. What I am into is looking at who is
:53:58. > :54:00.the best person to run the service, who can do it for real value for
:54:01. > :54:05.money for the public, and who can do it best. The rise of the independent
:54:06. > :54:11.politician has rattled traditional party members. The number of
:54:12. > :54:20.initiatives and projects underway at a cost. That cost is significant
:54:21. > :54:33.spending, bordering, borrowing and a pretty high precept. I think it is
:54:34. > :54:35.important to the from precept feels that services are delivered in an
:54:36. > :54:40.effective way and provide good value. Whether it's welcomed by all
:54:41. > :54:46.parties, Frome certainly seems to be having a political renaissance. This
:54:47. > :54:49.park will soon be in the hands of the town council, showing that in
:54:50. > :54:51.this part of Somerset, localism rules the roost.
:54:52. > :54:59.Joining us is Nick White who's the former Mayor of Frome and an
:55:00. > :55:03.independent councillor. What is all this wanting more powers all the
:55:04. > :55:11.time? You're not getting too big for you Brits, are you? `` for you
:55:12. > :55:15.Brits, are you? I do not think we are. When we came to power, we felt
:55:16. > :55:21.things could be run better in Froome than had been in the past. The town
:55:22. > :55:24.council had got caught up in party politics and we didn't think that
:55:25. > :55:27.was relevant in running a town council. Since we have gained
:55:28. > :55:30.control of the council, we came up with a number of initiatives we
:55:31. > :55:34.think will improve and enhance the town. The trouble is, we keep
:55:35. > :55:38.running up against District Council and county councilss in being able
:55:39. > :55:43.to take over some of those services and provisions. The item it might be
:55:44. > :55:52.you are parochial and cannot see the larger picture. `` the adamant might
:55:53. > :56:01.be. I think... It is a difficult question. We have to go back,
:56:02. > :56:04.actually, you have flummoxed me Is it reasonable that you do not see
:56:05. > :56:09.the problems and districts as a whole because you're so worried
:56:10. > :56:14.about Frome? It is the biggest town within Mendip District Council.
:56:15. > :56:19.There has always been a tendency in Frome that we do not get value for
:56:20. > :56:26.money from Mendip. We are the largest contributor but possibly not
:56:27. > :56:35.the biggest benefactor. Let's bring in the politicians once more. Where
:56:36. > :56:40.your counsellor? I was not. Is there a reason why the big parties should
:56:41. > :56:46.be involved in local politics? What is political about climbing the
:56:47. > :56:49.drains and cobbling the street? Any level of Government has politics to
:56:50. > :56:55.it. As a counsellor, I offer myself to the electorate as someone with a
:56:56. > :56:58.programme and I George that is coherent with a manifesto we can
:56:59. > :57:06.stand on. I think that is perfectly reasonable. `` with the programme
:57:07. > :57:11.and manifesto. But there is no politics about putting cobbles on a
:57:12. > :57:19.road, is there? It's a question of resource and how the taxpayer pays
:57:20. > :57:23.for it. It is a public space and a question of resource and how you're
:57:24. > :57:32.going to allocated. We have larger towns which have Lib Dem councils.
:57:33. > :57:35.The smaller ones and independence. You're talking about spending
:57:36. > :57:39.potentially millions of pounds. In Yate, that the Dems are keen on
:57:40. > :57:47.youth services. They created a gift cafe. They delivered. `` a youth
:57:48. > :57:56.cafe. There are differences at a very local level. Do you see
:57:57. > :58:03.yourselves as pioneers in Frome I think we have broken a bit of old or
:58:04. > :58:09.went back to a time when party politics wasn't as influential.
:58:10. > :58:14.Maybe we have rode the boat back of it by getting more involved as
:58:15. > :58:16.independents. People all over the country are watching you to see what
:58:17. > :58:22.is being done. Thank you for coming in and talking about it today. It is
:58:23. > :58:28.time now for a round`up of the week's political stories in 60
:58:29. > :58:31.seconds. Ed Miliband was in town meeting
:58:32. > :58:37.party activists. Many locally admit they have a mountain to climb if
:58:38. > :58:42.they're to win back seats here. We have got a message about how we
:58:43. > :58:46.can freeze energy prices, abolish bedroom tax, strengthen the minimum
:58:47. > :58:49.wage, help with childcare, which is absolutely well the concerns of
:58:50. > :58:52.people across the South West are. The parents of Catherine Wells`Burr,
:58:53. > :58:56.from Somerset ` who was murdered last year ` are backing a new code
:58:57. > :59:04.that will allow bereaved families to read out a personal statement in
:59:05. > :59:06.court themselves. If you like a drop of jam or marmalade on your Sunday
:59:07. > :59:15.morning toast, then listen up Tessa I am concerned this will be the end
:59:16. > :59:27.of the British breakfast as we know it. Tessa Munt says plans to reduce
:59:28. > :59:30.the minimum amount of sugar in jam from 60 to 50% will turn it into
:59:31. > :59:34.brown gloop, whilst the Government claims it will boost exports.
:59:35. > :59:39.I was putting jam on my toast this morning and I stopped when I
:59:40. > :59:41.realised how much sugar was in it. Let's talk about Ed Miliband and his
:59:42. > :59:48.visit to Bristol this week. Is he winning the adamant, do you think,
:59:49. > :59:52.although the cost of living? Labour is winning the adamant. In the last
:59:53. > :59:56.few months, we have seen that Labour is framing the debate. We started
:59:57. > :00:01.talking about energy prices, for example, at conference. Labour said,
:00:02. > :00:10.look, the markets are not working on energy when there are price rises.
:00:11. > :00:13.When prices do not go back down energy companies are keeping the
:00:14. > :00:17.difference for themselves. The market is broken here and people are
:00:18. > :00:20.feeling the pinch. Labour has managed to change the subject and
:00:21. > :00:28.the Coalition seems to be scrambling to catch up. Is he right? I shadowed
:00:29. > :00:31.Ed Miliband when he was the Secretary of State in charge of
:00:32. > :00:38.energy. Funnily enough, if the market is broken, why didn't he fix
:00:39. > :00:42.it? What about these green taxes? They are a small part of the mix.
:00:43. > :00:48.There is a lot we can do it is make sure people are not wasting energy.
:00:49. > :00:51.We are doing a large amount of that but there is more to be done. The
:00:52. > :00:54.idea that energy companies will freeze prices and will not jack them
:00:55. > :01:00.up before and afterwards is not right. If energy companies want to
:01:01. > :01:03.do that before the next election because they fear Labour will win,
:01:04. > :01:13.that will raise questions of competition law. Increasing the
:01:14. > :01:18.prices is a legal? If they do it as a cartel... They could legally do
:01:19. > :01:23.it. But Labour said is they will bring in a freeze in places as a
:01:24. > :01:28.pause. The market is not working here and we need to pause and see
:01:29. > :01:32.how it will work. It could be you will be working with Ed Miliband.
:01:33. > :01:38.You would be quite comfortable with that, wouldn't you? On the left of
:01:39. > :01:43.the Lib Dems. Plan a is to work with Nick, I'm afraid. We worry about
:01:44. > :01:47.that after the election. We shall see. That is we have got
:01:48. > :01:52.time for this week thank you to our guests for joining us. We will be a
:01:53. > :01:57.little later next Sunday because of the Remembrance Sunday service. For
:01:58. > :01:59.now, back to Andrew for the rest of the day's programme. If
:02:00. > :02:17.Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's
:02:18. > :02:30.relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the
:02:31. > :02:33.Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka
:02:34. > :02:36.Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did
:02:37. > :02:40.earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.
:02:41. > :02:44.Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:02:45. > :02:48.office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the
:02:49. > :02:52.Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative
:02:53. > :02:57.mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he
:02:58. > :03:03.should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey
:03:04. > :03:09.denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial
:03:10. > :03:13.dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side
:03:14. > :03:19.is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send
:03:20. > :03:22.its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened
:03:23. > :03:28.in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families
:03:29. > :03:31.out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset
:03:32. > :03:38.particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of
:03:39. > :03:42.things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own
:03:43. > :03:48.report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -
:03:49. > :03:56.forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was
:03:57. > :04:09.being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the
:04:10. > :04:13.report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is
:04:14. > :04:16.something that the police are looking into so that is not
:04:17. > :04:28.something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We
:04:29. > :04:31.learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained
:04:32. > :04:37.to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour
:04:38. > :04:47.Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party
:04:48. > :04:50.and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are
:04:51. > :04:55.looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like
:04:56. > :04:58.the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil
:04:59. > :05:03.Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed
:05:04. > :05:10.Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not
:05:11. > :05:15.worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?
:05:16. > :05:19.Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we
:05:20. > :05:26.have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many
:05:27. > :05:30.respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further
:05:31. > :05:36.ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship
:05:37. > :05:41.with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of
:05:42. > :05:46.the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to
:05:47. > :05:50.vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but
:05:51. > :05:55.they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and
:05:56. > :06:00.that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do
:06:01. > :06:03.things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour
:06:04. > :06:08.Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in
:06:09. > :06:13.which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us
:06:14. > :06:20.in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3
:06:21. > :06:28.million working people who ensure our public services function. At
:06:29. > :06:34.Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk
:06:35. > :06:43.Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd
:06:44. > :06:49.just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to
:06:50. > :06:53.give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be
:06:54. > :06:58.confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to
:06:59. > :07:04.take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our
:07:05. > :07:12.Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed
:07:13. > :07:16.Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in
:07:17. > :07:21.special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite
:07:22. > :07:28.union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean
:07:29. > :07:36.according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the
:07:37. > :07:41.meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer
:07:42. > :07:49.free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your
:07:50. > :07:57.turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the
:07:58. > :08:02.allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the
:08:03. > :08:07.Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their
:08:08. > :08:15.rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at
:08:16. > :08:21.Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of
:08:22. > :08:27.their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to
:08:28. > :08:32.our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will
:08:33. > :08:37.find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets
:08:38. > :08:44.tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working
:08:45. > :08:48.in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port
:08:49. > :08:53.and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets
:08:54. > :08:59.overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from
:09:00. > :09:04.unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite
:09:05. > :09:09.know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears
:09:10. > :09:13.used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private
:09:14. > :09:19.sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was
:09:20. > :09:23.born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of
:09:24. > :09:31.their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they
:09:32. > :09:39.can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But
:09:40. > :09:43.there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is
:09:44. > :09:49.right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for
:09:50. > :09:54.their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their
:09:55. > :09:59.aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their
:10:00. > :10:06.workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the
:10:07. > :10:11.protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has
:10:12. > :10:18.said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.
:10:19. > :10:23.He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the
:10:24. > :10:27.radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that
:10:28. > :10:32.was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend
:10:33. > :10:37.to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like
:10:38. > :10:45.land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing
:10:46. > :10:49.the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.
:10:50. > :10:55.million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The
:10:56. > :11:00.business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances
:11:01. > :11:06.back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being
:11:07. > :11:10.used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater
:11:11. > :11:18.variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro
:11:19. > :11:25.enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a
:11:26. > :11:29.living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but
:11:30. > :11:35.there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business
:11:36. > :11:42.because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is
:11:43. > :11:48.good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are
:11:49. > :11:52.not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax
:11:53. > :12:01.credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know
:12:02. > :12:12.after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living
:12:13. > :12:15.wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and
:12:16. > :12:24.we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party
:12:25. > :12:38.pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a
:12:39. > :12:44.living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.
:12:45. > :12:50.What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle
:12:51. > :12:57.as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one
:12:58. > :13:01.of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this
:13:02. > :13:05.soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working
:13:06. > :13:16.together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.
:13:17. > :13:25.That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be
:13:26. > :13:30.here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at
:13:31. > :13:59.the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:00. > :14:04.Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.
:14:05. > :14:11.To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.
:14:12. > :14:14.There were the objects that were making the Earth.
:14:15. > :14:17.We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.
:14:18. > :14:20.Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?
:14:21. > :14:25.This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.