:00:35. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:45. > :00:48.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:49. > :00:51.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:52. > :00:55.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:56. > :01:00.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:01. > :01:10.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:11. > :01:13.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:14. > :01:17.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:18. > :01:23.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity.
:01:24. > :01:31.In the West, the brutal murder of a Bristol refugee for being different.
:01:32. > :01:42.capital is now a crisis. Another week, another strategy? Can this one
:01:43. > :01:45.deliver? And with me throughout today's
:01:46. > :01:52.programme, well, we've shaken the packet and look who's risen to the
:01:53. > :01:55.top. Or did we open it at the bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh
:01:56. > :02:04.and Sam Coates. All three will be tweeting throughout the programme
:02:05. > :02:07.using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise
:02:08. > :02:10.to freeze energy prices has set the Westminster agenda, the Coalition
:02:11. > :02:12.Government is finally coming up with its answer. This morning the
:02:13. > :02:15.Chancellor George Osborne explained how he plans to cut household energy
:02:16. > :02:19.bills by an average of fifty quid. What we're going to do is roll back
:02:20. > :02:24.the levees that are placed by government on people's electricity
:02:25. > :02:28.bills. This will mean that for the average bill payer, they will have
:02:29. > :02:35.?50 of those electricity and gas bills. That will help families. We
:02:36. > :02:39.are doing it in the way that government can do it. We are
:02:40. > :02:42.controlling the cost that families incurred because of government
:02:43. > :02:45.policies. We are doing it in a way that will not damage the environment
:02:46. > :02:52.or reduce our commitment to dealing with climate change. We will not
:02:53. > :02:57.produce commit men to helping low-income families with the cost of
:02:58. > :03:01.living. Janan, we are finally seeing the coalition begin to play its hand
:03:02. > :03:05.in response to the Ed Miliband freeze? They have been trying to
:03:06. > :03:10.respond for almost ten weeks and older responses have been quite
:03:11. > :03:15.fiddly. We are going to take a bit of tax year, put it onto general
:03:16. > :03:19.taxation, have a conversation with the energy companies, engineered a
:03:20. > :03:25.rebate of some kind, this is not very vivid. The advantage of the
:03:26. > :03:29.idea that they have announced overnight is that it is clear and it
:03:30. > :03:37.has a nice round figure attached to it, ?50. The chief of staff of
:03:38. > :03:42.President Obama, he said, if you are explaining, you're losing. The
:03:43. > :03:47.genius of this idea is that it does not require explanation. He would
:03:48. > :03:51.not drawn this morning on what agreement he had with the energy
:03:52. > :03:55.companies, and whether this would fall through to the bottom of the
:03:56. > :03:59.bill, but the way he spoke, saying, I am not going to pre-empt what the
:04:00. > :04:05.energy companies say, that suggests he has something up his sleeve. Yes,
:04:06. > :04:11.I thought so. The energy companies have made this so badly for so long.
:04:12. > :04:15.It would be awful if he announced this and the energy companies said,
:04:16. > :04:21.we are going to keep this money for ourselves. I do not think he is that
:04:22. > :04:26.stupid. The energy companies have an incentive to go along with this
:04:27. > :04:30.don't they? My worry is that I am not sure how much it will be within
:04:31. > :04:35.the opinion polls. I think people might expect this now, it is not a
:04:36. > :04:43.new thing, it is not an exciting thing. Say in the markets, they may
:04:44. > :04:47.have priced the ten already. If by Thursday of this week, he is able to
:04:48. > :04:52.say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your bill. The energy companies have
:04:53. > :04:57.guaranteed that this will fall through onto your energy bill, and
:04:58. > :05:02.they have indicated to me that they themselves will not put up energy
:05:03. > :05:08.prices through 2014, has he shot the Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a
:05:09. > :05:13.couple of challenges. It is still very hard. This is an answer for the
:05:14. > :05:16.next 12 months but did is no chance announced that Labour will stop
:05:17. > :05:21.saying they are going to freeze prices in the next Parliament. He
:05:22. > :05:26.will say, I have not just frozen them, I have done that as well and I
:05:27. > :05:31.have cut them. When people look at their energy bills, they are going
:05:32. > :05:36.up by more than ?50. This is a reduction in the amount that they
:05:37. > :05:41.are going up overall. Year on 0 will be for George Osborne. He will
:05:42. > :05:48.have to come up with something this time next year. The detail in the
:05:49. > :05:52.Sunday papers reveals that George Osborne is trying to get the energy
:05:53. > :05:56.companies to put on bills that 50 has been knocked off your bill
:05:57. > :06:01.because of a reduction by the government. He is trying to get the
:06:02. > :06:06.energy companies to do his political bidding for him. It will be
:06:07. > :06:12.interesting to see if they go along with that, because then we will know
:06:13. > :06:15.how cross the arm with Ed Miliband. Let's get another perspective.
:06:16. > :06:18.Joining me now from Kendal in the Lake District is the president of
:06:19. > :06:27.the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good
:06:28. > :06:32.morning. Let me ask you this, the coalition is rowing back on green
:06:33. > :06:37.taxes, I do comfortable with that or is it something else you will rebel
:06:38. > :06:42.against? I am very comfortable with the fact we are protecting for the
:06:43. > :06:48.money is going. I am open to where the money comes from. The notion
:06:49. > :06:51.that we should stop insulating the homes of elderly people or stop
:06:52. > :06:55.investing in British manufacturing in terms of green industry, that is
:06:56. > :07:00.something that I resolutely oppose, but I am pleased that the funding
:07:01. > :07:05.will be made available for all that. You cannot ignore the fact that for
:07:06. > :07:10.a whole range of reasons, mostly down to the actions of the energy
:07:11. > :07:14.companies, you have prices that are shooting up and affecting lots of
:07:15. > :07:19.people, making life hard. You cannot ignore that. If we fund the
:07:20. > :07:25.installation of homes for older people and others, if we protect
:07:26. > :07:28.British manufacturing jobs, and raise the money through general
:07:29. > :07:35.taxation, I am comfortable with that. It is not clear that is going
:07:36. > :07:39.to happen. It looks like the eco-scheme, whereby the energy
:07:40. > :07:42.companies pay for the installation of those on below-average incomes,
:07:43. > :07:47.they will spin that out over four years, not two years, and one
:07:48. > :07:52.estimate is that that will cost 10,000 jobs. You're always boasting
:07:53. > :08:01.about your commitment to green jobs, how do square that? I do not believe
:08:02. > :08:05.that. The roll-out will be longer. The number of houses reached will be
:08:06. > :08:11.greater and that is a good thing. My take is that it will not affect the
:08:12. > :08:15.number of jobs. People talk about green levies. There has been
:08:16. > :08:23.disparaging language about that sort of thing. There are 2 million people
:08:24. > :08:31.in this country in the lowest income families and they get ?230 off their
:08:32. > :08:35.energy bills because of what isn't -- because of what is disparaging
:08:36. > :08:42.the refer to as green stuff, shall we call it. There will be more
:08:43. > :08:47.properties covered. We both know that your party is being pushed into
:08:48. > :08:53.this by the Tories. You would not be doing this off your own bad. You are
:08:54. > :09:02.in coalition with people who have jettisoned their green Prudential
:09:03. > :09:09.is? -- credentials. You have made my point quite well. David Cameron s
:09:10. > :09:14.panicked response to this over the last few months was to ditch all the
:09:15. > :09:18.green stuff. It has been a job to make sure that we hold him to his
:09:19. > :09:22.pledges and the green cord of this government. That is why we are not
:09:23. > :09:30.scrapping the investment, we are making sure it is funded from
:09:31. > :09:36.general taxation. I am talking to you from Kendal. Lots of people
:09:37. > :09:38.struggle to pay their energy bills. But all these things pale into
:09:39. > :09:42.insignificance compared to the threat of climate change and we must
:09:43. > :09:47.hold the Prime Minister to account on this issue. Argue reconciled to
:09:48. > :09:53.the idea that as long as you're in coalition with the Tories you will
:09:54. > :09:58.never get a mansion tax? I am not reconciled to it. We are trying to
:09:59. > :10:04.give off other tax cut to the lowest income people. What about the
:10:05. > :10:09.mansion tax? That would be potentially paid for by another view
:10:10. > :10:13.source of finance. That would be that the wealthy... We know that is
:10:14. > :10:19.what you want, but you're not going to get that? We will keep fighting
:10:20. > :10:30.for it. It is extremely important. We can show where we will get the
:10:31. > :10:34.money from. I know that is the adamant. That is not what I asked
:10:35. > :10:40.you. Ed Balls and Labour run in favour of a mansion tax, have you
:10:41. > :10:44.talked to them about it? The honest answer is I have not. It is
:10:45. > :10:53.interesting that they have come round to supporting our policy
:10:54. > :10:56.having rejected it in power. So if Labour was the largest party in
:10:57. > :11:02.parliament but not in power, you would have no problem agreeing with
:11:03. > :11:06.a mansion tax as part of the deal? If the arithmetic falls in that way
:11:07. > :11:11.and that is the will of the British people, fear taxes on those who are
:11:12. > :11:16.wealthiest, stuff that is fear, which includes wealth taxes, in
:11:17. > :11:20.order to fund more reductions for those people on lowest incomes, that
:11:21. > :11:28.is the sort of thing that we might reach agreement on. You voted with
:11:29. > :11:32.Labour on the spare room subsidy. Again, that would be job done in any
:11:33. > :11:41.future coalition talks with Labour, correct? I take the view that the
:11:42. > :11:45.spare room subsidy, whilst entirely fail in principle, in practice it
:11:46. > :11:49.has caused immense hardship. I want to see that changed. There are many
:11:50. > :11:56.people in government to share my view on that. So does Labour. The
:11:57. > :12:00.problem was largely caused Labour because they oversaw an increase in
:12:01. > :12:06.housing costs both 3.5 times while they were in power. The government
:12:07. > :12:13.was forced into a position to tidy up an appalling mess that Labour
:12:14. > :12:23.left. You voted with Labour against it, and also, you want... No, I
:12:24. > :12:32.voted with the party conference Let's not dance on the head of the
:12:33. > :12:38.ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on the head of a pin. You are also in
:12:39. > :12:45.favour of a 50% top rate of income tax, so you and Labour are that one
:12:46. > :12:50.there as well? No, I take the view that the top rate of income tax is a
:12:51. > :12:57.fluid thing. All taxation levels are temporary. Nick Clegg said that when
:12:58. > :13:01.the 50p rate came down to 45, that was a rather foolish price tag
:13:02. > :13:06.George Osborne asked for in return for as increasing the threshold and
:13:07. > :13:12.letting several million people out of paying income tax at the bottom.
:13:13. > :13:17.So you agree with Labour? In favour of rising the tax to 50p. I take the
:13:18. > :13:23.view that we should keep our minds open on that. It is not the income
:13:24. > :13:28.tax level that bothers me, it is whether the wealthy pay their fresh
:13:29. > :13:37.air. If that can be done through other taxes, then that is something
:13:38. > :13:44.that I am happy with. -- their fair share. Given your position on the
:13:45. > :13:47.top rate of tax, on the spare room subsidy, how does the prospect of
:13:48. > :13:56.another five years of coalition with the Tories strike you? The answer
:13:57. > :14:00.is, you react with whatever you have about you to what the electorate
:14:01. > :14:06.hand you. Whatever happens after the next election, you have got to
:14:07. > :14:11.respect the will of the people. Yes, but how do you feel about it? We
:14:12. > :14:17.know about this, I am asking for your feeling. Does your heart left
:14:18. > :14:21.or does your heart fall at the prospect of another five years with
:14:22. > :14:26.the Tories? My heart would always follow the prospect of anything
:14:27. > :14:31.other than a majority of Liberal Democrat government. Your heart must
:14:32. > :14:35.be permanently in your shoes then. Something like that, but when all is
:14:36. > :14:40.said and done, we accept the will of the electorate. When you stand for
:14:41. > :14:45.election, you have got to put up with what the electorate say. I have
:14:46. > :14:50.not found coalition as difficult as you might suggest. It is about
:14:51. > :14:55.people who have to disagree and agree to differ. You work with
:14:56. > :15:00.people in your daily life that you disagree with. It is what grown ups
:15:01. > :15:05.do. A lot of people in your party think that your positioning yourself
:15:06. > :15:08.to be the left-wing candidate in a post-Nick Clegg leadership contest.
:15:09. > :15:26.They think it is blatant manoeuvring. One senior figure says,
:15:27. > :15:29.this is about you. Which bit of the sanctimonious, treacherous little
:15:30. > :15:35.man is there not to like? What can I see in response to that. My job is
:15:36. > :15:42.to promote the Liberal Democrats. I have to do my best to consider what
:15:43. > :15:50.I'd defend to be right. By and large, my position as an MP in the
:15:51. > :15:54.Lake District, but also as the president of the party, is to
:15:55. > :15:59.reflect the will of people outside the Westminster village. That is the
:16:00. > :16:05.important thing to do. Thank you for joining us. David Cameron has said
:16:06. > :16:08.he wants to get it down to the tens of thousands, Ed Miliband has
:16:09. > :16:12.admitted New Labour "got it wrong", and Nick Clegg wants to be
:16:13. > :16:14."zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes, immigration is back on the political
:16:15. > :16:17.agenda, with figures released earlier this week showing that net
:16:18. > :16:21.migration is on the rise for the first time in two years. And that's
:16:22. > :16:25.not the only reason politicians are talking about it again.
:16:26. > :16:29.The issue of immigration has come into sharp focus because of concerns
:16:30. > :16:35.about the number of remaining ins and Bulgarians that can come to the
:16:36. > :16:41.UK next year. EU citizenship grants the right to free movement within
:16:42. > :16:45.the EU. But when Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007, the
:16:46. > :16:46.government took up its right to apply temporary restrictions on
:16:47. > :16:56.movement. They must be lifted apply temporary restrictions on
:16:57. > :16:57.end of this year. According to the 2011 census, about one eyed 1
:16:58. > :17:04.million of the population in England and Wales is made up of people from
:17:05. > :17:08.countries who joined the EU in 004. The government has played down
:17:09. > :17:13.expectations that the skill of migration could be repeated. This
:17:14. > :17:18.week David Cameron announced new restrictions on the ability of EU
:17:19. > :17:23.migrants to claim benefits. That was two, send a message. That prompted
:17:24. > :17:32.criticism is that the UK risks being seen as a nasty country. Yvette
:17:33. > :17:38.Cooper joins me now for the Sunday interview. Welcome to the Sunday
:17:39. > :17:43.Politics, Yvette Cooper. You criticised the coalition for not
:17:44. > :17:46.acting sooner on immigration from Romania and Bulgaria but the
:17:47. > :17:51.timetable for the unrestricted arrival in January was agreed under
:17:52. > :17:54.Labour many years ago, and given the battle that you had with the Polish
:17:55. > :17:58.and the Hungarians, what preparations did you make in power?
:17:59. > :18:05.We think that we should learn from some of the things that happened
:18:06. > :18:07.with migration. It would have been better to have transitional controls
:18:08. > :18:13.in place and look at the impact of what happened. But what preparations
:18:14. > :18:15.did you make in power? We set out a series of measures that the
:18:16. > :18:22.Government still had time to bring in. It is important that this should
:18:23. > :18:26.be a calm and measured debate. There was time to bring in measures around
:18:27. > :18:31.benefit restrictions, for example, and looking at the impact on the
:18:32. > :18:35.labour market, to make sure you do not have exploitation of cheap
:18:36. > :18:39.migrant Labour which is bad for everyone. I know that but I have
:18:40. > :18:44.asked you before and I am asking again, what did you do? We got
:18:45. > :18:49.things wrong in Government. I understand that I am not arguing.
:18:50. > :18:56.You are criticising them not preparing, a legitimate criticism,
:18:57. > :19:02.but what did you do in power? Well, I did think we did enough. Did you
:19:03. > :19:09.do anything? We signed the agency workers directive but too slowly. We
:19:10. > :19:12.needed measures like that. We did support things like the social
:19:13. > :19:16.chapter and the minimum wage, but I have said before that we did not do
:19:17. > :19:21.enough and that is why we recommended the measures in March. I
:19:22. > :19:26.understand that is what you did in opposition and I take that. I put
:19:27. > :19:30.the general point to you that given your failure to introduce controls
:19:31. > :19:35.on the countries that joined in 2004, alone among the major EU
:19:36. > :19:40.economies we did that, should we not keep an embarrassed silence on these
:19:41. > :19:43.matters? You have no credibility. I think you have got to talk about
:19:44. > :19:46.immigration. One of the things we did not do in Government was
:19:47. > :19:54.discussed immigration and the concerns people have and the
:19:55. > :19:57.long-term benefits that we know have come from people who have come to
:19:58. > :19:59.Britain over many generations contributing to Britain and having a
:20:00. > :20:02.big impact. I think we recognise that there are things that we did
:20:03. > :20:06.wrong, but it would be irresponsible for us not to join the debate and
:20:07. > :20:11.suggest sensible, practical measures that you can introduce now to
:20:12. > :20:16.address the concerns that people have, but also make sure that the
:20:17. > :20:18.system is fair and managed. Immigration is important to Britain
:20:19. > :20:23.but it does have to be controlled and managed in the right way. Let's
:20:24. > :20:28.remind ourselves of your record on immigration. The chart you did not
:20:29. > :20:33.consult when in power. This is total net migration per year under Labour.
:20:34. > :20:40.2.2 million of net rise in migration, more than the population
:20:41. > :20:48.of Birmingham, you proud of that? -- twice the population. Are you proud
:20:49. > :20:51.of that or apologising for it? We set the pace of immigration was too
:20:52. > :20:57.fat and the level was too high and it is right to bring migration down.
:20:58. > :21:03.So you think that was wrong? Overruled have been huge benefits
:21:04. > :21:08.from people that have come to Britain and built our biggest
:21:09. > :21:12.businesses. -- overall. They have become Olympic medal winners. But
:21:13. > :21:16.because the pace was too fast, that has had an impact. That was because
:21:17. > :21:20.of the lack of transitional controls from Eastern Europe and it is why we
:21:21. > :21:24.should learn from that and have sensible measures in place now, as
:21:25. > :21:30.part of what has got to be a calm debate. These are net migration
:21:31. > :21:35.figures. They don't often show the full figure. These are the
:21:36. > :21:39.immigration figures coming in. What that chart shows is that in terms of
:21:40. > :21:46.the gross number coming into this country, from the year 2000, it was
:21:47. > :21:52.half a million a year under Labour. Rising to 600,000 by the time you
:21:53. > :21:54.were out of power. A lot of people coming into these crowded islands,
:21:55. > :22:00.particularly since most of them come to London and the South East. Was
:22:01. > :22:05.that intentional? Was that out of control? Is that what you are now
:22:06. > :22:10.apologising for? What we said was that the Government got the figures
:22:11. > :22:14.wrong on the migration from Eastern Europe. If you remember particularly
:22:15. > :22:19.there was the issue of what happened with not having transitional
:22:20. > :22:23.controls in place. The Government didn't expect the number of people
:22:24. > :22:29.coming to the country to be the way it was. And so obviously mistakes
:22:30. > :22:32.were made. We have recognised that. We have also got to recognise that
:22:33. > :22:37.this is something that has happened in countries all over the world We
:22:38. > :22:40.travel and trade far more than ever. We have an increasingly globalised
:22:41. > :22:44.economy. Other European countries have been affected in the same way,
:22:45. > :22:49.and America, and other developing countries affected in the same way
:22:50. > :22:54.by the scale of migration. I am trying to work out whether the
:22:55. > :22:58.numbers were intentional or if you lost control. The key thing that we
:22:59. > :23:02.have said many times and I have already said it to you many times,
:23:03. > :23:05.Andrew, that we should have a transitional controls in place on
:23:06. > :23:11.Eastern Europe. I think that would have had an impact on them level of
:23:12. > :23:14.migration. We also should have brought in the points -based system
:23:15. > :23:18.earlier. We did bring that in towards the end and it did restrict
:23:19. > :23:22.the level of low skilled migration because there are different kinds of
:23:23. > :23:25.migration. University students coming to Britain brings in billions
:23:26. > :23:30.of pounds of investment. On the other hand, low skilled migration
:23:31. > :23:35.can have a serious impact on the jobs market, pay levels and so on at
:23:36. > :23:39.the low skilled end of the labour market. We have to distinguish
:23:40. > :23:43.between different kinds of migration. You keep trying to excuse
:23:44. > :23:47.the figures by talking about the lack of transitional controls. Can
:23:48. > :23:52.we skip the chart I was going to go to? The next one. Under Labour, this
:23:53. > :23:58.is the source of where migrants came from. The main source was not the
:23:59. > :24:04.accession countries or the remainder of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were
:24:05. > :24:07.from the African Commonwealth, and the Indian subcontinent.
:24:08. > :24:11.Overwhelmingly, these numbers are nothing to do with transitional
:24:12. > :24:16.controls. You can control that immigration entirely because they
:24:17. > :24:20.are not part of the EU. Was that a mistake? First of all, the big
:24:21. > :24:26.increase was in the accession groups. Not according to the chart.
:24:27. > :24:30.In terms of the increase, the changes that happened. Secondly in
:24:31. > :24:33.answer to the question that you just asked me, we should also have
:24:34. > :24:38.introduced the points -based system at an earlier stage. Thirdly there
:24:39. > :24:41.has been a big increase in the number of university students coming
:24:42. > :24:45.to Britain and they have brought billions of pounds of investment. At
:24:46. > :24:49.the moment the Government is not distinguishing, it is just using the
:24:50. > :24:53.figure of net migration. And that is starting to go up again, as you said
:24:54. > :24:57.in the introduction, but the problem is that it treats all kinds of
:24:58. > :25:02.migration is aimed. It does not address illegal immigration, which
:25:03. > :25:06.is a problem, but it treats university graduates coming to
:25:07. > :25:11.Britain in the same way as low skilled workers. If Labour get back
:25:12. > :25:15.into power, is it your ambition to bring down immigration? We have
:25:16. > :25:20.already said it is too high and we would support measures to bring it
:25:21. > :25:24.down. You would bring it down? There is something called student visas,
:25:25. > :25:29.which is not included in the figures, and it does not include
:25:30. > :25:39.university graduates, and it is a figure that has increased
:25:40. > :25:42.substantially in recent years. They come for short-term study but they
:25:43. > :25:45.do not even have to prove that they come for a college course. They do
:25:46. > :25:47.not even have to have a place to come. Those visas should be
:25:48. > :25:49.restricted to prevent abuse of the system and that is in line with a
:25:50. > :25:52.recommendation from the Inspectorate and that is the kind of practical
:25:53. > :25:57.thing that we could do. Can you give us a ballpark figure of how much
:25:58. > :26:02.immigration would fall? You have seen the mess that Theresa May has
:26:03. > :26:06.got into with her figures. She made a target that it is clear to me that
:26:07. > :26:28.she will not meet. I think that is right. She will not meet it. Can you
:26:29. > :26:32.give as a ballpark figure by which we can judge you? If she had been
:26:33. > :26:34.more sensible and taken more time to listen to experts and decide what
:26:35. > :26:37.measures should be targeted, then she would not be in this mess. You
:26:38. > :26:39.cannot give me a figure? She has chosen net migration. She has set a
:26:40. > :26:42.target, without ifs and buts. I think it is important not to have a
:26:43. > :26:44.massive gap between the rhetoric and reality. Not to make promises on
:26:45. > :26:50.numbers which are not responsible. OK, you won't give me a figure.
:26:51. > :26:54.Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00 front line police jobs have gone
:26:55. > :26:58.since 2010 but crime continues to fall. 7% down last year alone. When
:26:59. > :27:04.you told the Labour conference that you do not cut crime by cutting the
:27:05. > :27:06.police, you were wrong. I think the Government is being very complacent
:27:07. > :27:11.about what is happening to crime. Crime patterns are changing. There
:27:12. > :27:17.has been an exponential increase, and that is in the words of the
:27:18. > :27:25.police, in online crime. We have also seen, for example, domestic
:27:26. > :27:29.violence going up, but prosecutions dropping dramatically. There is a
:27:30. > :27:34.serious impact as a result of not having 10,000 police in place. You
:27:35. > :27:37.have talked about the exponential increase in online and economic
:27:38. > :27:44.crime. If those are the big growth areas, why have bobbies on the beat?
:27:45. > :27:47.That would make no difference. It is about an approach to policing that
:27:48. > :27:51.has been incredibly successful over many years, which Labour introduced,
:27:52. > :27:55.which is neighbourhood policing in the community is working hard with
:27:56. > :27:59.communities to prevent crime. People like to see bobbies on the beat but
:28:00. > :28:04.have you got any evidence that it leads to a reduction in crime?
:28:05. > :28:08.Interestingly, the Lords Stevens commission that we set up, they have
:28:09. > :28:11.reported this week and it has been the equivalent of a Royal
:28:12. > :28:17.commission, looking at the number of people involved in it. Their strong
:28:18. > :28:20.recommendation was that this is about preventing crime but also
:28:21. > :28:23.respectful law and order, working with communities, and so they
:28:24. > :28:27.strongly took the view with all of their expertise and the 30 different
:28:28. > :28:30.universities that they have involved with it, that on the basis of all
:28:31. > :28:36.that analysis, the right thing was to keep bobbies on the beat and not
:28:37. > :28:41.push them cars. Instinctively you would think it was true. More
:28:42. > :28:46.visible policing, less crime. But in all the criminology work, I cannot
:28:47. > :28:50.find the evidence. There is competing work about why there has
:28:51. > :28:54.been a 20 year drop in overall crime and everybody has different opinions
:28:55. > :28:57.on why that has happened. The point about neighbourhood policing is that
:28:58. > :29:04.it is broader than crime-fighting. It is about prevention and community
:29:05. > :29:09.safety. Improving the well-being of communities as well. Will you keep
:29:10. > :29:14.the elected Police Commissioners? Big sigh! What the report said was
:29:15. > :29:20.that the system is flawed. We raised concern about this at the beginning.
:29:21. > :29:26.You will remember at the elections, Theresa May's flagship policy, at
:29:27. > :29:30.the elections they cost ?100 million and there was 15% turnout. You have
:29:31. > :29:36.to have a system of accountability at the police. Three options were
:29:37. > :29:41.presented, all of which are forms. So you have to have reform. It is
:29:42. > :29:51.not whether to have reformed, it is which of those options is the best
:29:52. > :29:57.way to do it. The commission set out a series of options, and I thought
:29:58. > :30:01.that the preferable approach would be collaboration and voluntary
:30:02. > :30:06.mergers. We know they won't volunteer. There have been some
:30:07. > :30:10.collaboration is taking place. I think the issues with police and
:30:11. > :30:14.crime commissioners have fragmented things and made it harder to get
:30:15. > :30:18.collaboration between police forces. Everybody is asking this
:30:19. > :30:26.question, just before you go. What is it like living with a nightmare?
:30:27. > :30:35.Who does all the cooking, so I can't complain! Says Miliband people are
:30:36. > :30:39.wrong, he is a dream cook? He is! In a speech this week, Boris Johnson
:30:40. > :30:42.praised greed and envy as essential for economic progress, and that has
:30:43. > :30:47.got tongues wagging. What is the Mayor of London up to? What is his
:30:48. > :30:57.game plan? Does he even have a game plan and does he know if he has one?
:30:58. > :31:01.Flash photography coming up. Boris. In many ways I can leave it there.
:31:02. > :31:12.You'd know who I meant. And if you didn't, the unruly mop of blonde
:31:13. > :31:15.hair would tell you, the language. Ping-pong was invented on the dining
:31:16. > :31:33.tables of England. Somehow pulling off the ridiculous to the sublime.
:31:34. > :31:36.It is going to go zoink off the scale! But often having to speed
:31:37. > :31:41.away from the whiff-whaff of scandal. Boris, are you going to
:31:42. > :31:44.save your manage? There's always been a question about
:31:45. > :31:47.him and his as role as mayor and another prized position, as hinted
:31:48. > :31:53.to the Tory faithful this year at conference, discussing former French
:31:54. > :32:01.Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain Juppe. He told me he was going to be
:32:02. > :32:06.the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he may have been mayor well he was
:32:07. > :32:12.Prime Minister, it is the kind of thing they do in funds -- AvD in
:32:13. > :32:21.France. It is a good idea, if you ask me. But is it a joke? He is much
:32:22. > :32:25.more ambitious. Boris wants to be Prime Minister more than anything
:32:26. > :32:33.else. Perhaps more than he wants to be made of London. The ball came
:32:34. > :32:38.loose from the back of the scrum. Of course it would give great thing to
:32:39. > :32:43.have a crack at, but it is not going to happen. He might be right. First,
:32:44. > :32:46.the Conservatives have a leader another Old Etonian, Oxford,
:32:47. > :32:53.Bullingdon chap and he has the job Boris might like a crack at. What do
:32:54. > :32:57.you do with a problem like Boris? It is one of the great paradoxes of
:32:58. > :33:03.Tory politics that for Boris Johnson to succeed, David Cameron must feel.
:33:04. > :33:07.Boris needs David Cameron to lose so that he can stand a chance of
:33:08. > :33:10.becoming loser. -- becoming leader. And disloyalty is punished by
:33:11. > :33:12.Conservatives. Boris knows the man who brought down Margaret Thatcher.
:33:13. > :33:19.Michael Heseltine, who Boris replaced as MP for Henley, never got
:33:20. > :33:29.her job. In 1986, she took on the member for Henley, always a risky
:33:30. > :33:33.venture. And why might he make such a jibe, because he's won two more
:33:34. > :33:42.elections than the PM. Conservatives like a winner. Boris, against Robert
:33:43. > :33:52.expectations, has won the Mayor of London job twice. -- public. He
:33:53. > :33:55.might've built a following with the grassroots but he's on shakier
:33:56. > :34:02.ground with many Tory MPs, who see him as a selfish clown, unfit for
:34:03. > :34:05.high office. And besides, he's not the only one with king-sized
:34:06. > :34:12.ambition, and Boris and George are not close, however much they may
:34:13. > :34:18.profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for a
:34:19. > :34:22.complete and perfect harmony. Ying and yang. But in plain black and
:34:23. > :34:26.white, if Boris has a plan, it's one he can't instigate, and if David
:34:27. > :34:31.Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be implementable. He'd need a seat and
:34:32. > :34:37.it wouldn't be plain sailing if he did make a leadership bid. My
:34:38. > :34:42.leadership chances, I think I may have told you before, or about as
:34:43. > :34:47.good as my chances of ying reincarnated as a baked bean. Which
:34:48. > :34:50.is probably quite high. So if the job you want with Brown-esque desire
:34:51. > :34:59.is potentially never to be yours what do you do? He is, of course, an
:35:00. > :35:03.American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital,
:35:04. > :35:08.and so he is qualified to be President of the United States. And
:35:09. > :35:14.you don't need an IQ over 16 to find that the tiniest bit scary.
:35:15. > :35:20.Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are
:35:21. > :35:26.here. Is there a plan for Boris and if so, what is it? I think the plan
:35:27. > :35:30.is for him to say what he thinks the Tory activist base wants to hear
:35:31. > :35:36.just now. He knows that in 18 months time they can disown it. I think he
:35:37. > :35:42.is wrong, the way the speech has played has a limited number of
:35:43. > :35:46.people. He has cross-party appeal. He has now reconfirmed to people
:35:47. > :35:52.that the Tories are the nasty party and they have been pretending to be
:35:53. > :35:56.modernised. Is it not the truth that he needs David Cameron to lose the
:35:57. > :36:03.2015 election to become leader in this decade? It is very interesting
:36:04. > :36:07.watching his fortunes wax and wane. It always seems to happen in inverse
:36:08. > :36:12.proportion to how well David Cameron is doing in front of his own party.
:36:13. > :36:16.There is no small element of strategy about what we are doing
:36:17. > :36:21.here. The problem with Boris is that he's popular with the country, but
:36:22. > :36:28.not with the party's MPs and its hard-core supporters. This was an
:36:29. > :36:33.appeal to the grassroots this week. He is not the only potential
:36:34. > :36:38.candidate. If we were in some kind of circumstance where Boris was a
:36:39. > :36:47.runner to replace Mr Cameron, who with the other front the? I think it
:36:48. > :36:53.will skip a generation. The recent intake was ideological assertive. I
:36:54. > :36:57.do not buy the idea that it will be Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I
:36:58. > :37:06.then, that generation will be tainted by being in government. It
:37:07. > :37:12.is interesting, what is he trying to pull? He is ideological. He does not
:37:13. > :37:17.believe in many things, but he believes in a few things quite
:37:18. > :37:22.deeply, and one is the idea of competition, both in business and
:37:23. > :37:29.academic selection. He has never been squeamish about expressing
:37:30. > :37:35.that. We do make mistakes sometimes, assuming he is entirely political.
:37:36. > :37:39.Look at all the Northern voters who will not vote for the Tories even
:37:40. > :37:46.though they are socially or economic the Conservatives. I do not think he
:37:47. > :37:53.helps. Who in the Tories would help? That is a tough question. To
:37:54. > :38:02.reason me has also been speaking to the hard right. -- Theresa May. I
:38:03. > :38:05.have been out with him at night It is like dining with a film star
:38:06. > :38:12.People are queueing up to speak to him. Educational selection is one of
:38:13. > :38:14.the few areas that he can offer He has gone liberal on immigration as
:38:15. > :38:38.are made of London would have to. Thank you and welcome to the part of
:38:39. > :38:44.the programme or us in the West Coming up this week: With WSDL in
:38:45. > :38:47.the headlines after the savage beating and burning of Bijan
:38:48. > :38:52.Ebrahimi, we ask whether politicians could have done more to stop this
:38:53. > :38:56.happening. He repeatedly called police asking for help but it never
:38:57. > :39:00.came. Now the Home Secretary has been told to speed up the
:39:01. > :39:07.investigation. Joining as today are two politicians have clashed in the
:39:08. > :39:11.battle for Stroud. It is David Drew and Paul Hodgkinson. Thank you for
:39:12. > :39:22.coming in. First we must talk about the badger cull which was halted
:39:23. > :39:29.this weekend. The cull has failed on every level, has it not? I do not
:39:30. > :39:37.think it has. We had to pilot culls. It was quite successful and
:39:38. > :39:41.got close to our target. It has been more challenging in Gloucestershire.
:39:42. > :39:54.The reason they have suspended it is because page trapping was having to
:39:55. > :40:00.end. `` page trapping. People on the ground were reporting they were not
:40:01. > :40:02.seeing many temperatures. The weather was deteriorating as well.
:40:03. > :40:16.If you could not see any temperatures, does that mean they
:40:17. > :40:20.have been shot? Temperatures. How many have you reduced it by? We will
:40:21. > :40:24.give a statement in Parliament tomorrow which sets out the precise
:40:25. > :40:32.figures but we will be short of the target we had. It has been a more
:40:33. > :40:38.challenging in Gloucester. We will be analysing the figures in the next
:40:39. > :40:43.couple of months and it will put us in a strong position on how we take
:40:44. > :40:47.the policy forward to next year The policing has cost ?2.5 million and
:40:48. > :40:53.there is a possibility in Gloucestershire that the badgers may
:40:54. > :40:58.have got scared and gone to other areas, but you claim it is a
:40:59. > :41:04.success? You have to look at the cost of tackling TB. We know that if
:41:05. > :41:13.we do nothing than the disease would cost ?1 billion. You spent ?2
:41:14. > :41:16.billion and may have made it worse. There is no evidence that you can
:41:17. > :41:21.tackle TB without tackling the disease in the wildlife population.
:41:22. > :41:28.There was a lot of research into vaccines... I know that, but can you
:41:29. > :41:34.not accept and clarified that there is a possibility that you have made
:41:35. > :41:43.it worse in Gloucestershire? With the trials that were done a a
:41:44. > :41:46.decades ago, we know that there was only a 30% drop in population.
:41:47. > :41:53.Providing we sustain it in Gloucestershire, there will be a
:41:54. > :42:01.significant reduction in TB. We know that if you sustain the cull and get
:42:02. > :42:06.the population down then it can still have her significant effect. I
:42:07. > :42:14.would like to bring in my other get stop you both sceptics. Has he said
:42:15. > :42:18.anything to convince you? No, because they should not have started
:42:19. > :42:23.down this line. When I was in Parliament we looked at this issue.
:42:24. > :42:26.There is a way forward and it is vaccination and controlling the
:42:27. > :42:32.population. That is what they should have done instead of this mad idea.
:42:33. > :42:36.It has been a shambles from beginning to end. Let's stop this.
:42:37. > :42:45.Maybe you can ask the Minister whether he will carry this on for
:42:46. > :42:52.the next two years. I am a Gloucestershire County Council and
:42:53. > :42:56.the Liberal Democrats voted against this. We think it is madness. I
:42:57. > :43:04.think it is a disaster. I represent a rural area in the Cotswolds and
:43:05. > :43:12.the opinion amongst farmers is split, and most are and see this. ``
:43:13. > :43:16.against this. I think it has been a disaster. Let's go back to the
:43:17. > :43:20.Minister. Disaster has been a word that has been used time and time
:43:21. > :43:24.again, and the question about whether it will continue as
:43:25. > :43:29.planned. I do not accept it as a disaster. The last Labour government
:43:30. > :43:33.put their head in the sand on this. This is a government that is willing
:43:34. > :43:36.to take difficult and controversial decisions, and that is why we are
:43:37. > :43:43.taking forward this strategy of cull. There is no example anywhere
:43:44. > :43:47.in the world of being able to tackle TB without it. I visited a farm in
:43:48. > :43:55.Gloucestershire recently and they had pests every two months... People
:43:56. > :44:00.are still saying it is a failed policy and you are still doing it! I
:44:01. > :44:08.do not accept that. We know that we cannot tackle TB without the cull.
:44:09. > :44:12.And queue for coming on. The tragic murder of a Bristol man for being
:44:13. > :44:19.different has rocked the city. He was beaten to death on his own
:44:20. > :44:27.doorstep after a mob appears in being a paedophile. Kerry McCarthy,
:44:28. > :44:40.the Labour MP, has asked the Home Secretary to speed up the
:44:41. > :44:50.investigation into the case. Ijan Ebrahimi came to the UK seeking
:44:51. > :44:55.sanctuary `` Bijan Ebrahimi. His family say he called the police 50
:44:56. > :45:01.times in five years and that he was called a cockroach and told to go
:45:02. > :45:06.home. Just because he was different, they picked on him. He was
:45:07. > :45:13.vulnerable and did not want to mix with those sorts of people. He lived
:45:14. > :45:21.on his own and they have used that to pick on him. Falsely accused of
:45:22. > :45:26.being a paedophile the shy man known as Ben was beaten to death by a
:45:27. > :45:33.neighbour, Lee James. Now the police are under investigation. They
:45:34. > :45:37.arrested Bijan Ebrahimi for his own safety in the days leading up to the
:45:38. > :45:45.murder after repeatedly claiming harassment. I want this to happen as
:45:46. > :45:49.quickly as possible. The IPCC are under resourced and they have been
:45:50. > :45:54.sidelined by the Hillsborough enquiry. I have written to the Home
:45:55. > :45:58.Secretary asking for a report as soon as possible. If the police
:45:59. > :46:03.officers are found guilty of misconduct then appropriate action
:46:04. > :46:16.should be taken. I want to happen what happened to Bijan Ebrahimi in
:46:17. > :46:21.the last few days. `` I want to know. If he asked for help then he
:46:22. > :46:28.did not receive the help he deserved. Five officers remain under
:46:29. > :46:31.investigation in what the IPCC says is a robust enquiry, moving as
:46:32. > :46:38.quickly as possible. They have offered to meet the family of Bijan
:46:39. > :46:43.Ebrahimi. The local MP thinks better neighbourhood policing could have
:46:44. > :46:47.prevented what happens and she has wider concerns about why Bijan
:46:48. > :46:51.Ebrahimi was even on the estate It raises questions about where you put
:46:52. > :47:00.vulnerable people. I was there a week or two ago and had neighbours
:47:01. > :47:04.telling me about drug dealers in the area as well as violence and
:47:05. > :47:08.aggression between people living in neighbouring properties. Is that the
:47:09. > :47:14.right place to put a vulnerable person? What are the alternatives?
:47:15. > :47:18.There is such a shortage of suitable accommodation. The death of Bijan
:47:19. > :47:25.Ebrahimi remains a test for the community with questions to ask The
:47:26. > :47:34.police force is now under political pressure.
:47:35. > :47:38.Joining me in the studio is a member of a charity. He has been helping
:47:39. > :47:44.the family through this difficult time. Welcome to our programme.
:47:45. > :47:48.Let's fill in the gaps in our knowledge. Why did he come to
:47:49. > :48:02.Bristol? Became as a refugee from around. `` Iran. Wherever he went
:48:03. > :48:11.there were problems. Why? Yes, he was different. He was Iranian and
:48:12. > :48:19.because he was a refugee, wherever he was put in, there were other
:48:20. > :48:30.people with social needs. Other immigrants have settled peacefully,
:48:31. > :48:44.though? He had racist attacks in 2007 in a homeless hostel. This was
:48:45. > :48:50.a high deprivation area. He moved from here to his present address.
:48:51. > :48:54.Truly terrible. The Chief Constable I was interviewing last week admits
:48:55. > :48:58.that there have been failures in all the agencies involved. Do you accept
:48:59. > :49:13.that there were failures in your agency? Not failures, we do not have
:49:14. > :49:18.the power to change things. In those last terrifying hours, was he on to
:49:19. > :49:23.you saying that he was reading the police and they are not coming? No,
:49:24. > :49:30.he was not stop he had stopped coming to us because we referred him
:49:31. > :49:34.to a law centre because there was an injunction taken out on him. Before
:49:35. > :49:39.that we have a catalogue of incidents that we worked with. There
:49:40. > :49:45.were 50 phone calls made to the police on a persistent basis of
:49:46. > :49:53.being harassed and racially abused. There was an injunction against him?
:49:54. > :50:07.Yes. The Bristol Law Centre came on board and said this was wrong. He
:50:08. > :50:12.was accused of a malicious lie. People know that racism is
:50:13. > :50:16.completely unacceptable but to call someone a paedophile, as they did
:50:17. > :50:21.wrongly in this case, it seems it is open season and the victim is in
:50:22. > :50:29.mortal danger. Yes, and I think when those words came out, it is an
:50:30. > :50:35.emotive subject for most of us, and we mostly think of the victims, I
:50:36. > :50:41.think the authorities should have quelled those rumours and said to
:50:42. > :50:46.the people that there is no proof at all that this man is a paedophile.
:50:47. > :50:55.Once a rumour gets out it seems that those knucklehead, the members of
:50:56. > :51:01.the mobs, think it is noble to attack somebody. They should have
:51:02. > :51:06.seen a vulnerable person in a dangerous place. It was Bijan
:51:07. > :51:11.Ebrahimi who was arrested? For his own safety. Let's bring in the other
:51:12. > :51:20.politicians. Are there lessons that can be learned? Yes, there are.
:51:21. > :51:23.Politicians have to be careful when they mix up the immigration debate
:51:24. > :51:32.with racism. On the back of the Jimmy Savile case, paedophilia is
:51:33. > :51:38.something that politicians need to be careful with. They use language
:51:39. > :51:43.that can be a Q3. The sad thing is that there should have been
:51:44. > :51:51.intervention at an early stage or he should have been taken out of the
:51:52. > :51:59.premises. Sometimes evil things happen. I think what's happened is
:52:00. > :52:03.truly appalling. It is dreadful and I cannot imagine how that can happen
:52:04. > :52:09.in a civilised country like this one. Acting up what David said,
:52:10. > :52:18.there is a culture of fear emerging. `` backing up. People of the right
:52:19. > :52:22.wing push out messages about people who are different. Immigrants,
:52:23. > :52:30.people of a minority sexuality, religion. The tabloids scream these
:52:31. > :52:34.things and it creates a culture of noticing where people are different.
:52:35. > :52:45.That is frightening and has no place in civilised society in my view
:52:46. > :52:48.The IPCC have not reported back yet because they are so busy with other
:52:49. > :52:54.complaints about Hillsborough and Plebgate and all the rest of it
:52:55. > :53:00.What does that tell us? The priority needs to be put quite high on this
:53:01. > :53:07.one. We have finished a review, the first part of the review, and I
:53:08. > :53:14.think the IPCC should do the second part. We need to know and we need to
:53:15. > :53:22.learn the lessons of this so we do not have another case of Bijan
:53:23. > :53:27.Ebrahimi in Bristol. Thank you. They are often left by grieving relatives
:53:28. > :53:32.and friends as a tribute to a lost one but now a Bristol councillor has
:53:33. > :53:41.accused his local authority about being too relaxed in clearing the
:53:42. > :53:48.flowers up. Vicky was just 18 when she died after a night at her
:53:49. > :53:52.boyfriend's House. Her friends say she was kind and popular. This
:53:53. > :53:57.unofficial memorial has upset some who want the green clear for the
:53:58. > :54:06.carol concert. Tensions have been running high. It is not a great and
:54:07. > :54:22.it is not a cemetery. We are showing respect! It is disgusting! I think
:54:23. > :54:27.it is ridiculous to be honest. It is somewhere we can go to pay our
:54:28. > :54:35.respects. There is nowhere else we can go so we come here. This is our
:54:36. > :54:42.place and we come here to put flowers down and remember her. 9%
:54:43. > :54:54.of people lose relatives. It is tragic when anybody dies. Why is it
:54:55. > :54:58.that when somebody decides to remember their daughter this way...
:54:59. > :55:03.If the whole country did it, there would be flowers around every tree.
:55:04. > :55:09.Becky's mother is caught on both sides. I suppose it can be upsetting
:55:10. > :55:15.for other people as well. Seeing things like that. If they have lost
:55:16. > :55:21.a member of their family could be upsetting. I do feel a bit sad that
:55:22. > :55:25.if we could replace it with something like a bench or a tree,
:55:26. > :55:30.that would be nice. A short distance from the area, another tragic
:55:31. > :55:36.reminder on the roadside but this has been here for years. Different
:55:37. > :55:41.councils take different approaches to how long memorials like this one
:55:42. > :55:44.can stay. In Somerset Council removes flowers from the roadside a
:55:45. > :55:50.month. Bristol County is more relaxed and there is no limit. The
:55:51. > :55:59.important question is how we defy what our public lives is for.
:56:00. > :56:03.It is a sensitive thing that politicians have two decides on
:56:04. > :56:08.What is the appropriate length of time that memorials should be left?
:56:09. > :56:11.We do have to be sensitive because we are talking about people who have
:56:12. > :56:17.lost someone. I think there should be a period during which memorials
:56:18. > :56:20.can be there and I disagree fundamentally with one of the
:56:21. > :56:26.individuals who said there should not be something. I think that has
:56:27. > :56:30.to be some time. I think it should be a matter of months, maybe three
:56:31. > :56:34.months. In Gloucestershire there is no limit. I think it should be
:56:35. > :56:46.three`month. It should be a period where they remember someone but
:56:47. > :56:48.after that time they should move on. Is that reasonable? I think
:56:49. > :56:52.people should be allowed to grieve. People often have a level of
:56:53. > :56:57.spirituality which is hidden. I would like to see the grieving
:56:58. > :57:02.process formalised. The idea of a tree or a bench. A young person in
:57:03. > :57:07.Stroud killed themselves and as a result of the action, his young
:57:08. > :57:16.friends paid for the funeral and created a very moving epitaph to
:57:17. > :57:22.that young person's life. I guess these are public spaces. We all have
:57:23. > :57:27.tragedies to deal with and most people do it privately. Some people
:57:28. > :57:32.need to express it publicly and that may not always be welcome. I think
:57:33. > :57:37.people should be able to express it. The interesting thing is that if
:57:38. > :57:42.there is something by the side of the road, it reminds people that has
:57:43. > :57:46.been an accident. In the Cotswolds, there are a couple of locations
:57:47. > :57:51.where it reminds people, for a period of time, that it is an
:57:52. > :57:56.accident prone spot and people should take care. People should be
:57:57. > :58:01.allowed to grieve in some way and I think a few months is appropriate. I
:58:02. > :58:07.have heard in my area that drivers looking at those memorials has
:58:08. > :58:16.caused other issues the happen with regards to road safety. After that
:58:17. > :58:25.period, we should move on. We generally have a stiff upper lip and
:58:26. > :58:37.there is a general view that we were `` spear `` spirituality is passe.
:58:38. > :58:42.Let's have some way we can keep that memory alive and too often it is
:58:43. > :58:47.about taking down the immediate flowers and that is the wrong way to
:58:48. > :58:51.do it. If you are grieving this weekend, our thoughts are with you.
:58:52. > :58:59.Now it is time to look at the political week which has just gone
:59:00. > :59:04.by. Tessa month has launched a scathing
:59:05. > :59:09.attack on Somerset councillors over cuts to Children's Services. It was
:59:10. > :59:13.announced that the decision would be made today and it is not fair on the
:59:14. > :59:18.parents and children. More people will be able to find out from the
:59:19. > :59:23.place whether their partner has a history of the mess that violence.
:59:24. > :59:33.Wilts is one of four areas where the law has been brought in. `` domestic
:59:34. > :59:39.violence. He never shies away from taking on his own government. This
:59:40. > :59:44.challenge was own immigration. The free movement of people is not
:59:45. > :59:48.working. Why does the government lacked the political will to change
:59:49. > :59:52.the law? After years of fighting, plans to redevelop Bristol City s
:59:53. > :59:57.current ground have been approved. It looks certain they will stay put
:59:58. > :00:04.rather than heading to a bigger site. That was the week that was.
:00:05. > :00:09.Let's look ahead to the next week and the Chancellor's Autumn
:00:10. > :00:17.statement. That is when he announces the spending plans. What is on your
:00:18. > :00:20.wish list? The Chancellor needs to go much further with increasing the
:00:21. > :00:26.personal tax allowance. It has gone up to 10,000. They have given 2
:00:27. > :00:33.million people a tax cut. I would like to see them go much further.
:00:34. > :00:40.That gives everybody a pay cut. That would give a millionaire tax cut. It
:00:41. > :00:47.does but it takes more people out of paying tax altogether. We have taken
:00:48. > :00:54.3 million out of paying tax. That is on your wish list. What about you,
:00:55. > :01:02.David? I agree with Tessa. I would put the money into saving
:01:03. > :01:05.children's' centres. We need to boost this very important part of
:01:06. > :01:11.government spending. I agree with Tessa. OK, let's see what Santa
:01:12. > :01:17.brings you. That is all we have time for this week. Thank you to my
:01:18. > :01:21.guests for joining me. I will be back next week for our final
:01:22. > :01:23.programme in the series before Christmas is here. How time flies!
:01:24. > :01:27.picked out. People thought he was touching on eugenics and things like
:01:28. > :01:44.that. That is all we have time for. Thank you. What rabbit has George
:01:45. > :01:50.Osborne got up his sleeve? And what's David Cameron up to in China?
:01:51. > :01:57.All questions for The Week Ahead. To help the panel led, we are joined by
:01:58. > :02:03.Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why has the
:02:04. > :02:07.government been unable to move the agenda and to the broad economic
:02:08. > :02:13.recovery, and allowed the agenda to stay on Labour's ground of energy
:02:14. > :02:17.prices and living standards? Energy has been a big issue over the last
:02:18. > :02:20.few months but the autumn state and will be a wonderful opportunity to
:02:21. > :02:25.readdress where we are fighting the ground, the good economic news that
:02:26. > :02:30.we delivered. If you look at where Labour were earlier this year,
:02:31. > :02:35.people were saying they would they 5 million people unemployed. They were
:02:36. > :02:43.saying that there should be a plan B. He is not in the Labour Party?
:02:44. > :02:48.Elements of the left were suggesting it. Peter Hain told me it would be
:02:49. > :02:54.up to 3 million people. Danny Blanchflower said it would be 5
:02:55. > :02:59.million people. So we have got to get the economy back to the centre
:03:00. > :03:04.of the debate? Yes, the game we were playing was about the economy. That
:03:05. > :03:09.was the central fighting ground of the political debate. We were
:03:10. > :03:14.winning that battle. Labour have cleverly shifted it onto the cost of
:03:15. > :03:18.living. It is essential that the government, that George, talks about
:03:19. > :03:27.the economy. That has been its great success. I do not think this has
:03:28. > :03:35.been a week of admitting that Labour was right, plain cigarettes
:03:36. > :03:39.packaging, other issues. If you look at the big picture, where we are
:03:40. > :03:44.with the economy, we have the fastest growing economy in the G-7.
:03:45. > :03:50.Despite Labour's predictions, none of this has happened, none of the
:03:51. > :03:54.triple dip has happened. The British economy is on a good fitting. That
:03:55. > :03:59.is a good story for the government to bat on. You say that people have
:04:00. > :04:02.stopped talking about the economic recovery, but it is worse than that,
:04:03. > :04:08.people have stopped talking about the deficit? As long as people were
:04:09. > :04:15.talking about the deficit, the Tories were trusted. But people have
:04:16. > :04:19.forgotten about it. This country still spends ?100 billion more than
:04:20. > :04:25.it raises. Yes, I am of the view that the deficit, the national
:04:26. > :04:30.debt, is the biggest question facing this generation of politicians. You
:04:31. > :04:36.are right to suggest that the Conservative Party was strong on
:04:37. > :04:42.this. That head, not deficit, is not going to come down in the
:04:43. > :04:45.foreseeable future? It is rising. This is a test that George Osborne
:04:46. > :04:51.is not going to pass. We know what is coming in the Autumn Statement,
:04:52. > :04:56.it is lots of giveaways, paying for free school meals, paying for fuel
:04:57. > :05:00.duty subsidies. We are still talking about the cost of living, not
:05:01. > :05:05.changing it actively wider economy. There might be extra money for
:05:06. > :05:12.growth but it is not clear what will happen to that. If it is time for
:05:13. > :05:18.giveaways, let's speak about Labour. I have never been a fan of
:05:19. > :05:24.giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what our watchword should be. Look at the
:05:25. > :05:30.headlines. Each time, the deficit figures, the debt figures, were
:05:31. > :05:36.always worse than predicted. This year it will be significantly
:05:37. > :05:41.better. I think that is significant. Any kind of recovery is probably
:05:42. > :05:46.better than no recovery at all. When you look at this recovery, it is
:05:47. > :05:51.basically a consumer spending boom. Consumer spending is up, business
:05:52. > :05:59.investment is way down compared with 2008, and exports, despite a 20
:06:00. > :06:03.devaluation, our flat. Let's get one thing straight, it is a recovery.
:06:04. > :06:11.Any recovery is better than no recovery. Now we can have a debate
:06:12. > :06:15.about, technical debate about the elements of the recovery. It is not
:06:16. > :06:20.technical, it is a fact. There is evidence that there is optimism in
:06:21. > :06:27.terms of what are thinking... Optimism? If I am optimistic about
:06:28. > :06:33.the economy, I am more likely to spend money and invest in business.
:06:34. > :06:38.So far you have not managed that? Exports have not done well either?
:06:39. > :06:44.Exports are not a big section of the British economy. But of course, they
:06:45. > :06:49.are important. But given where we were at the end of last year, no
:06:50. > :06:53.economist was saying that we would be in this robust position today.
:06:54. > :07:01.That is true, in terms of the overall recovery. Now the PM loves
:07:02. > :07:04.to "bang the drum abroad for British business" and he's off to China this
:07:05. > :07:06.evening with a plane-load of British business leaders. And it's not the
:07:07. > :08:01.first time. Take a look at this Well, you might not think exports
:08:02. > :08:05.unimportant, but clearly the Prime Minister and the Chancellor do. They
:08:06. > :08:10.are important, but they are not what is driving the growth at the moment.
:08:11. > :08:14.We used to talk about the need for export led recovery is, that is why
:08:15. > :08:21.the Prime Minister is going to China. Absolutely, and he's doing
:08:22. > :08:25.the right thing. Do we have any evidence that these tend of trips
:08:26. > :08:30.produce business? The main example so far is the right to trade the
:08:31. > :08:35.Chinese currency offshore. London has a kind of global primacy. London
:08:36. > :08:41.will be the offshore centre. Is that a good thing? I have no problem at
:08:42. > :08:44.all with this sort of policy. I do not think that Britain has been
:08:45. > :08:48.doing this enough compared with France and Germany in recent years.
:08:49. > :08:56.I am optimistic in the long term about this dish -- about British
:08:57. > :09:03.exports to China. China need machine tools and manufacturing products. In
:09:04. > :09:07.20 years time, China will be buying professional groups, educational
:09:08. > :09:11.services, the things we excel at. All we need to do is consolidate our
:09:12. > :09:17.strengths, stand still and we will move forward. The worst thing we can
:09:18. > :09:21.do is reengineer the economy towards those services and away from
:09:22. > :09:27.something else. We have a lot of ground to make up, Helen? At one
:09:28. > :09:32.stage, it is no longer true, but at one stage you could say that we
:09:33. > :09:37.exported more to Ireland, a country of 4 million people, than we did to
:09:38. > :09:47.Russia, China, India, Brazil, all combined. I believe we form 1% of
:09:48. > :09:52.Chinese imports now. The problem is what you have to give up in exchange
:09:53. > :09:56.for that. It is a big problem for David Cameron's credibility that he
:09:57. > :10:03.has had to row back on his meeting with the Dalai llama. This trip we
:10:04. > :10:08.have been in the deep freeze with China for a couple of years. This
:10:09. > :10:12.trip has come at a high cost. We have had to open up the City of
:10:13. > :10:15.London to Chinese banks without much scrutiny, we have had to move the
:10:16. > :10:21.date of the Autumn Statement, and there is no mention of human rights.
:10:22. > :10:25.It is awkward to deal with that all in the name of getting up to where
:10:26. > :10:33.we were a few years ago. A month after strong anchor -- one month
:10:34. > :10:39.after Sri Lanka, where he apologised three human rights abuses, this is
:10:40. > :10:43.difficult to take. Do we have any idea what the Prime Minister hopes
:10:44. > :10:47.to do in China this time? I am not sure there is anything specific but
:10:48. > :10:52.when you go to these countries, certainly in the Middle East China,
:10:53. > :10:58.they complain, why has the Prime Minister not come to see us? That is
:10:59. > :11:03.very important. High-level delegations from other countries go
:11:04. > :11:14.to these places because the addict -- because they are important export
:11:15. > :11:19.markets. You might look at the Prime Minister playing cricket over there,
:11:20. > :11:23.and wonder, what is that for? I do not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy
:11:24. > :11:29.cricket. This is a high visibility mission, chose that politicians in
:11:30. > :11:33.Britain care. You are part of the free enterprise group. It had all
:11:34. > :11:39.sorts of things on it like tax cuts for those on middle incomes or above
:11:40. > :11:47.the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16 billion. You will get none of that
:11:48. > :11:51.on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But he does have two budgets between now
:11:52. > :11:58.and the election and if the fiscal position is using a little bit, he
:11:59. > :12:01.may have more leeway than it looked like a couple of months ago. Yes,
:12:02. > :12:09.from a free enter prise point of view, we have looked at the tax cuts
:12:10. > :12:14.that should be looked at. The 4 p rate comes in at quite a low level
:12:15. > :12:19.for people who, in the south-east, do not feel particularly wealthy.
:12:20. > :12:25.They are spending a lot of money on commuting, energy bills. The
:12:26. > :12:29.Chancellor has been very open about championing this. He says that the
:12:30. > :12:34.40p rate will kick in at a slightly higher rate. Labour had a bad summer
:12:35. > :12:41.and the opinion polls seem to be narrowing. Then they had a good
:12:42. > :12:44.hearty conference season. The best. Has the Labour lead solidified or
:12:45. > :12:50.increased the little, maybe up to eight points? If it is a good Autumn
:12:51. > :12:56.Statement, or the Tories start to narrow that lead by the end of the
:12:57. > :13:01.year? If they go into 2014 trailing by single digits, they cannot
:13:02. > :13:06.complain too much. That gives them 18 months to chip away at Labour's
:13:07. > :13:11.lead. But do they do that chipping away by eight bidding Labour or do
:13:12. > :13:13.they let time take its course and let the economic recovery continue,
:13:14. > :13:20.maybe business investment joins consumer spending as a source of
:13:21. > :13:24.that recovery, and a year from now, household disposable income begins
:13:25. > :13:30.to rise? That is a better hope than engaging in a bidding war. Be
:13:31. > :13:33.assured, they will be highly political budgets. That's all for
:13:34. > :13:36.today. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at midday all this week, except
:13:37. > :13:39.on Thursday when we'll start at 10:45 to bring you live coverage and
:13:40. > :13:42.analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn Statement in a Daily Politics
:13:43. > :13:44.special for BBC Two and the BBC News Channel. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:45. > :13:48.it's the Sunday Politics.