:00:39. > :00:47.Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the
:00:48. > :00:51.coalition is fighting over cuts Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance
:00:52. > :00:55.the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he
:00:56. > :01:00.will cut. That is the top story Chris Grayling called for a
:01:01. > :01:04.completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the
:01:05. > :01:09.European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.
:01:10. > :01:11.Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how
:01:12. > :01:22.will they get In the West, a backlog of benefit
:01:23. > :01:23.claims. Families coping with serious illness
:01:24. > :01:25.ambulance even when the incident may be serious. Have cuts left to the
:01:26. > :01:40.service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio
:01:41. > :01:44.of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They
:01:45. > :01:51.will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick
:01:52. > :01:55.Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,
:01:56. > :02:00.the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on
:02:01. > :02:05.welfare after the next election You cannot say, as the Conservatives
:02:06. > :02:08.are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will
:02:09. > :02:12.not make any additional contributions from their taxes if
:02:13. > :02:15.there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to
:02:16. > :02:23.balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy
:02:24. > :02:28.people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the
:02:29. > :02:32.hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear
:02:33. > :02:37.to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make
:02:38. > :02:40.additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public
:02:41. > :02:46.finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories
:02:47. > :02:52.a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive
:02:53. > :02:59.differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two
:03:00. > :03:03.years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is
:03:04. > :03:08.what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying
:03:09. > :03:14.to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the
:03:15. > :03:20.polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will
:03:21. > :03:23.do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined
:03:24. > :03:29.with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There
:03:30. > :03:33.was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the
:03:34. > :03:38.Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent
:03:39. > :03:42.macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals
:03:43. > :03:47.with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was
:03:48. > :03:52.more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have
:03:53. > :03:56.to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,
:03:57. > :04:00.but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was
:04:01. > :04:04.foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a
:04:05. > :04:10.coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I
:04:11. > :04:17.cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about
:04:18. > :04:20.principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed
:04:21. > :04:25.Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a
:04:26. > :04:32.joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed
:04:33. > :04:37.Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood
:04:38. > :04:41.the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he
:04:42. > :04:45.said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels
:04:46. > :04:50.liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and
:04:51. > :04:56.maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election But
:04:57. > :04:59.he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both
:05:00. > :05:04.the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the
:05:05. > :05:07.Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels
:05:08. > :05:13.relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing
:05:14. > :05:19.pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories
:05:20. > :05:24.think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more
:05:25. > :05:30.he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall
:05:31. > :05:33.majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular
:05:34. > :05:37.positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the
:05:38. > :05:42.scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who
:05:43. > :05:49.are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more
:05:50. > :05:54.left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in
:05:55. > :06:01.them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten
:06:02. > :06:06.macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing,
:06:07. > :06:11.you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for
:06:12. > :06:18.the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift,
:06:19. > :06:21.Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what
:06:22. > :06:28.could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters,
:06:29. > :06:32.soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you
:06:33. > :06:36.fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour
:06:37. > :06:39.Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision
:06:40. > :06:47.with the Conservatives, you have a problem.
:06:48. > :06:54.Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM
:06:55. > :06:55.Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers
:06:56. > :07:12.taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are
:07:13. > :07:22.protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are
:07:23. > :07:27.tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal
:07:28. > :07:31.justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only
:07:32. > :07:36.have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had
:07:37. > :07:40.the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades
:07:41. > :07:46.after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government,
:07:47. > :07:51.is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's
:07:52. > :07:54.financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the
:07:55. > :08:01.election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a
:08:02. > :08:07.change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer
:08:08. > :08:16.without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you
:08:17. > :08:20.would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of
:08:21. > :08:27.prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically,
:08:28. > :08:31.Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris
:08:32. > :08:37.Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working
:08:38. > :08:42.since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a
:08:43. > :08:46.job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a
:08:47. > :08:49.category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a
:08:50. > :08:56.company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at
:08:57. > :09:00.times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is
:09:01. > :09:07.different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson
:09:08. > :09:11.have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and
:09:12. > :09:16.outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of
:09:17. > :09:21.their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such
:09:22. > :09:25.cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working
:09:26. > :09:34.with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now
:09:35. > :09:37.what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ
:09:38. > :09:43.offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now
:09:44. > :09:48.managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ
:09:49. > :09:53.offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have
:09:54. > :09:56.somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not
:09:57. > :10:01.have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean
:10:02. > :10:07.record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and
:10:08. > :10:10.overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we
:10:11. > :10:15.deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since
:10:16. > :10:19.Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to
:10:20. > :10:23.signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make
:10:24. > :10:27.radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to
:10:28. > :10:31.probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there
:10:32. > :10:34.has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him.
:10:35. > :10:38.But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that
:10:39. > :10:43.he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him,
:10:44. > :10:46.he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights,
:10:47. > :10:53.and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go
:10:54. > :10:57.further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the
:10:58. > :11:01.Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on
:11:02. > :11:05.what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be
:11:06. > :11:15.savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological
:11:16. > :11:18.driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money
:11:19. > :11:24.at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of
:11:25. > :11:37.that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection?
:11:38. > :11:44.Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover If
:11:45. > :11:49.you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto
:11:50. > :11:53.promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human
:11:54. > :12:00.rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to
:12:01. > :12:06.curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights
:12:07. > :12:10.act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court
:12:11. > :12:14.they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we
:12:15. > :12:19.have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and
:12:20. > :12:23.responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do
:12:24. > :12:29.not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last
:12:30. > :12:38.September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is
:12:39. > :12:42.clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as
:12:43. > :12:46.long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in
:12:47. > :12:53.Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency -
:12:54. > :12:56.recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will
:12:57. > :13:01.publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a
:13:02. > :13:06.direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will
:13:07. > :13:09.mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the
:13:10. > :13:16.European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept
:13:17. > :13:20.that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,
:13:21. > :13:23.but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we
:13:24. > :13:26.need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the
:13:27. > :13:32.different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We
:13:33. > :13:37.are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our
:13:38. > :13:43.colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our
:13:44. > :13:47.decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,
:13:48. > :13:52.in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will
:13:53. > :13:54.see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that
:13:55. > :14:00.deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the
:14:01. > :14:05.Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,
:14:06. > :14:10.we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is
:14:11. > :14:17.what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But
:14:18. > :14:20.how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we
:14:21. > :14:24.will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail
:14:25. > :14:30.the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The
:14:31. > :14:35.decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you
:14:36. > :14:37.sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney
:14:38. > :15:03.General says. I would be asking Strasberg a
:15:04. > :15:08.different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is
:15:09. > :15:12.enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if
:15:13. > :15:17.this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale
:15:18. > :15:21.reform in the court tomorrow, I m not sure it is going to happen which
:15:22. > :15:28.is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country.
:15:29. > :15:33.Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My
:15:34. > :15:39.mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say
:15:40. > :15:43.where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area
:15:44. > :15:48.where we don't agree as parties but in my view the public in this
:15:49. > :15:53.country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95
:15:54. > :15:57.Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives
:15:58. > :16:01.the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union
:16:02. > :16:07.law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you
:16:08. > :16:13.couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the
:16:14. > :16:25.letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced
:16:26. > :16:29.my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where
:16:30. > :16:33.one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the
:16:34. > :16:40.concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our
:16:41. > :16:43.membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system
:16:44. > :16:47.which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation
:16:48. > :16:53.where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European
:16:54. > :17:01.Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the
:17:02. > :17:06.right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan
:17:07. > :17:10.Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country
:17:11. > :17:16.should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare
:17:17. > :17:21.benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that
:17:22. > :17:26.before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to
:17:27. > :17:31.take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made
:17:32. > :17:34.a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels
:17:35. > :17:39.trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for
:17:40. > :17:44.change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind
:17:45. > :17:48.Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a
:17:49. > :17:52.clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to
:17:53. > :18:00.get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not
:18:01. > :18:06.acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other
:18:07. > :18:12.smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has
:18:13. > :18:17.happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made
:18:18. > :18:24.about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will
:18:25. > :18:29.be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and
:18:30. > :18:35.private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood
:18:36. > :18:39.is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but
:18:40. > :18:47.the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison
:18:48. > :18:51.of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales a
:18:52. > :18:57.big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the
:18:58. > :19:03.last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood
:19:04. > :19:07.and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would
:19:08. > :19:13.you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning
:19:14. > :19:19.permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few
:19:20. > :19:25.years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with
:19:26. > :19:30.dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is
:19:31. > :19:34.acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of
:19:35. > :19:41.contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the
:19:42. > :19:45.Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again.
:19:46. > :19:51.They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer.
:19:52. > :19:58.What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 20 0
:19:59. > :20:08.capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every
:20:09. > :20:11.private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are
:20:12. > :20:16.quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the
:20:17. > :20:23.barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What
:20:24. > :20:29.happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid
:20:30. > :20:33.and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When
:20:34. > :20:38.the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were
:20:39. > :20:44.operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating
:20:45. > :20:47.normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across
:20:48. > :20:52.government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over
:20:53. > :20:56.?2 billion on legal aid at the moment at a time when budgets are
:20:57. > :21:04.becoming tougher. You issued misleading figures about criminal
:21:05. > :21:10.barristers, you said that 25% of them earn over ?100,000 per year but
:21:11. > :21:16.that is their turnover, including VAT. 33% of that money goes on their
:21:17. > :21:21.expenses, they have to pay for their own pensions and insurance. People
:21:22. > :21:27.are not getting wealthy out of doing this work. I don't publish figures,
:21:28. > :21:31.our statisticians do, with caveats in place explaining the situation.
:21:32. > :21:36.Where you have high-cost cases, where we have taken the most
:21:37. > :21:40.difficult decisions, we have tried hard in taking difficult decisions
:21:41. > :21:51.to focus the impact higher up the income scale. But do you accept
:21:52. > :21:56.their take-home pay is not 100, 00? I accept they have to take out other
:21:57. > :22:00.costs, although some things like travelling to the court, you and I
:22:01. > :22:11.and everyone else has to pay for travelling to work. That is net of
:22:12. > :22:17.VAT. We have had a variety of figures published, some are and some
:22:18. > :22:24.are not. Let's be clear, the gross figures for fees from legal payments
:22:25. > :22:30.include 20% VAT. On a week when even a cabinet minister can be fitted up
:22:31. > :22:37.by the police, don't we all need well-financed legal aid? There is no
:22:38. > :22:40.chance that as a result well-financed legal aid? There is no
:22:41. > :22:53.changes people will end up in court unable to defend themselves. We have
:22:54. > :22:58.said in exceptional circumstances, if you haven't got any money to pay,
:22:59. > :23:01.we will support you, but there is no question of anyone ended up in
:23:02. > :23:07.court, facing a criminal charge where they haven't got a lawyer to
:23:08. > :23:12.defend them. Let's look at how so many dangerous criminals have
:23:13. > :23:17.managed to avoid jail. Here are the figures for 2012. Half the people
:23:18. > :23:29.for sexual assault found guilty not jailed. I thought you were meant to
:23:30. > :23:34.be tough on crime? Those figures predate my time, but since 2010 the
:23:35. > :23:40.number of those people going to jail has been increasing steadily. If you
:23:41. > :23:44.put the figures for 2010 on there, you would see a significant change.
:23:45. > :23:50.We will never be in a position where everybody who commits violence will
:23:51. > :23:54.end up in jail. The courts will often decided to his more
:23:55. > :23:58.appropriate to give a community sentence, but the trend is towards
:23:59. > :24:04.longer sentences and more people going to jail. That maybe but it is
:24:05. > :24:11.even quite hard to get sent to jail if you do these things a lot, again
:24:12. > :24:15.and again. In 2012 one criminal avoided being sent to jail despite
:24:16. > :24:25.having more than 300 offences to his name. 36,000 avoided going to jail
:24:26. > :24:29.despite 15 previous offences. That is why we are taking steps to
:24:30. > :24:35.toughen up the system. Last autumn we scrapped repeat cautions. You
:24:36. > :24:41.could find people getting dozens. As of last autumn, we have scrapped
:24:42. > :24:45.repeat cautions. If you commit the same offence twice within a two year
:24:46. > :24:52.period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to
:24:53. > :24:58.jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another
:24:59. > :25:05.34,000 prison places. You haven t got room to put bad people in jail?
:25:06. > :25:10.The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the
:25:11. > :25:16.decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail
:25:17. > :25:21.sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the
:25:22. > :25:25.most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if
:25:26. > :25:31.you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's
:25:32. > :25:38.right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick
:25:39. > :25:46.Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare
:25:47. > :25:50.cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the
:25:51. > :25:59.lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these
:26:00. > :26:04.cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look
:26:05. > :26:12.at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today,
:26:13. > :26:18.after people have left school or college, the live for a time with
:26:19. > :26:22.their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take
:26:23. > :26:26.that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying
:26:27. > :26:31.you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the
:26:32. > :26:34.road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by
:26:35. > :26:42.definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a
:26:43. > :26:48.case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the
:26:49. > :26:52.cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax
:26:53. > :27:00.rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last
:27:01. > :27:06.government. The amount of tax.. There is no more expected of the
:27:07. > :27:10.rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to
:27:11. > :27:15.distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to
:27:16. > :27:21.second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for
:27:22. > :27:27.example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who
:27:28. > :27:33.are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them?
:27:34. > :27:35.Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at
:27:36. > :27:38.Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for
:27:39. > :27:41.Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks
:27:42. > :27:43.set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general
:27:44. > :27:46.election. Although 16% more house-builds were
:27:47. > :27:49.started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed
:27:50. > :27:56.fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for
:27:57. > :27:59.National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should
:28:00. > :28:06.expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's
:28:07. > :28:13.conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would
:28:14. > :28:18.massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end
:28:19. > :28:23.of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year
:28:24. > :28:27.more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make
:28:28. > :28:31.Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban
:28:32. > :28:34.councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and
:28:35. > :28:39.force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government
:28:40. > :28:41.has been pursuing its own ideas including loan guarantees for
:28:42. > :28:45.developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David
:28:46. > :28:48.Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week
:28:49. > :28:50.the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for
:28:51. > :28:57.causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile
:28:58. > :29:12.prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east
:29:13. > :29:15.of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister
:29:16. > :29:17.Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost
:29:18. > :29:22.house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to
:29:23. > :29:27.blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant
:29:28. > :29:33.building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big
:29:34. > :29:36.house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry,
:29:37. > :29:44.where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new
:29:45. > :29:49.homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes
:29:50. > :29:53.as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes,
:29:54. > :29:57.now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because
:29:58. > :30:00.land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big
:30:01. > :30:05.companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being
:30:06. > :30:10.released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental
:30:11. > :30:13.structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said
:30:14. > :30:17.there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there
:30:18. > :30:22.needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self
:30:23. > :30:27.build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have
:30:28. > :30:33.problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it
:30:34. > :30:39.will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big
:30:40. > :30:43.builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the
:30:44. > :30:52.new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But
:30:53. > :30:56.isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and
:30:57. > :31:04.we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are
:31:05. > :31:10.going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the
:31:11. > :31:18.countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is
:31:19. > :31:22.enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The
:31:23. > :31:26.planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am
:31:27. > :31:33.not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public
:31:34. > :31:37.sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public
:31:38. > :31:42.land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are
:31:43. > :31:45.going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes
:31:46. > :31:50.to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are
:31:51. > :31:57.being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing
:31:58. > :32:03.development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will
:32:04. > :32:08.they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand
:32:09. > :32:13.of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases,
:32:14. > :32:17.house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the
:32:18. > :32:23.power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the
:32:24. > :32:28.compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope
:32:29. > :32:35.that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the
:32:36. > :32:42.house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you
:32:43. > :32:46.compulsory purchase it? We would give the local authority as a last
:32:47. > :32:50.resort, after escalating the fees, the possibility and flexible it is
:32:51. > :32:53.to use the compulsory purchase orders to sell the land on to a
:32:54. > :32:58.house builder who wants to build houses that we need. Can you name
:32:59. > :33:01.one report that has come back in recent years that shows that
:33:02. > :33:07.hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the
:33:08. > :33:09.Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are
:33:10. > :33:14.telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we
:33:15. > :33:19.have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots
:33:20. > :33:24.are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in
:33:25. > :33:32.London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building
:33:33. > :33:35.the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and
:33:36. > :33:38.sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity but
:33:39. > :33:44.there is another problem before that. That is around transparency
:33:45. > :33:47.about land options. There is agricultural land that
:33:48. > :33:54.house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.
:33:55. > :34:00.Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the
:34:01. > :34:05.south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most
:34:06. > :34:08.reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to
:34:09. > :34:16.force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to
:34:17. > :34:24.grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we
:34:25. > :34:26.want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they
:34:27. > :34:33.are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes but
:34:34. > :34:36.they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do
:34:37. > :34:40.not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with
:34:41. > :34:45.the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at
:34:46. > :34:47.?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is
:34:48. > :34:54.blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national
:34:55. > :35:01.interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot
:35:02. > :35:06.mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new
:35:07. > :35:10.homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be
:35:11. > :35:16.built, and in areas like Oxford Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree
:35:17. > :35:38.with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served
:35:39. > :35:43.with Michael Lyons? The national will put the five new towns? We have
:35:44. > :35:45.asked him to look at how we can incentivise local authorities to
:35:46. > :35:51.come forward with sites for new towns. You cannot tell us where they
:35:52. > :35:55.are going to be? I cannot. We will have to wait for him. When you look
:35:56. > :36:01.at the historic figures overall not at the moment, Private Housing
:36:02. > :36:05.building is only just beginning to recover, but it has been pretty
:36:06. > :36:08.steady for a while. The big difference between house-building
:36:09. > :36:12.now and in the past, since Mrs Thatcher came to power a and
:36:13. > :36:17.including the Tony Blair government, we did not build council houses
:36:18. > :36:22.Almost none. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council
:36:23. > :36:30.has programme? We inherited housing stock back in 1997... This is
:36:31. > :36:34.important. Will the next Labour government embark on a major council
:36:35. > :36:36.has programme? We have called on this government to bring forward
:36:37. > :36:43.investment in social housing. We want to see an investment programme
:36:44. > :36:48.in social housing, I cannot give you the figures now. We are 18 months
:36:49. > :36:51.away from the election. Will the next Labour government embark on a
:36:52. > :36:56.major council house Northern programme? I want to see a council
:36:57. > :37:01.house building programme, because there is a big shortage of council
:37:02. > :37:08.homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got there in the end. -- that is a yes?
:37:09. > :37:15.We will be talking to Patrick homes in the West Midlands in a moment.
:37:16. > :37:18.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:19. > :37:31.minutes, I will look at the week ahead with our political
:37:32. > :37:37.Welcome to the first Sunday Politics in the West of 2014. Coming up this
:37:38. > :37:42.week, what's the point of receiving disability benefits after you have
:37:43. > :37:45.died? That is what is happening because of delays in the system We
:37:46. > :37:48.will hear from a Somerset mother with terminal cancer who still has
:37:49. > :37:54.not received her disability allowance eight months after first
:37:55. > :37:57.applying. Joining me on our first show, we have Tessa Munt, the
:37:58. > :38:00.Liberal Democrat MP for Wales, and Clare Moody, who is hoping to become
:38:01. > :38:05.a Member of the European Parliament for Labour in the next elections
:38:06. > :38:10.this May. Just got to be elected first. Let's start if we can about
:38:11. > :38:15.the restrictions that were relaxed on Bulgarians and Romanians coming
:38:16. > :38:20.into this country. It turned to be not much at all, didn't it?
:38:21. > :38:24.Absolutely. Yes, after all the coverage and certain elements trying
:38:25. > :38:27.to big this up as being a huge influx of people coming from
:38:28. > :38:30.Bulgaria and Romania, it turns out there were actually less coming into
:38:31. > :38:37.the country on the 1st of January than there was last year. It is
:38:38. > :38:41.still early in January, of course. You could see more. Would that be a
:38:42. > :38:49.bad thing? The people who come here come here to work and play fair If
:38:50. > :38:58.they are part of our society and contributing to our society, as the
:38:59. > :39:01.majority are, then no. Tessa, did politicians ramp this up? I think
:39:02. > :39:07.some people got fairly hysterical about it. But as has been proven,
:39:08. > :39:11.there are fewer people coming in. And people do come to work. There
:39:12. > :39:15.are number of people in my constituency who do come to work,
:39:16. > :39:20.and that is what they do, they work very hard and very often. They do
:39:21. > :39:24.the jobs that people locally do not feel able to do. So you would not
:39:25. > :39:27.like to see a cap? No. From a business point of view, it is
:39:28. > :39:31.sensible that people should have access to work. There are large
:39:32. > :39:35.numbers of people from this part of the world who go abroad to work Not
:39:36. > :39:37.too many from Romania. Possibly not too many from Romania, but to the
:39:38. > :39:41.rest of Europe. Well, it has been the wettest
:39:42. > :39:44.Christmas and New Year that I can remember. It has been just a bit
:39:45. > :39:47.depressing, frankly, for most of us. But for some communities, the
:39:48. > :39:51.results have been devastating. The floods have turned parts of the West
:39:52. > :39:54.Country into giant lakes and ruined some homes. Everyone is trying to
:39:55. > :39:57.point the finger of blame. One thing is certain, Government funding is a
:39:58. > :40:00.big issue. Here's Paul Barltrop The West Country has been watery for
:40:01. > :40:04.weeks. Gloucestershire and Wiltshire have suffered but nowhere has been
:40:05. > :40:09.hit as hard a Somerset, just as it was one year ago. It has brought a
:40:10. > :40:14.flood of complaints. They should be protecting us. You're not happy are
:40:15. > :40:17.you? No, I am very angry. We have been pushing and pushing for
:40:18. > :40:21.dredging to be done and they will not do it. This has become an annual
:40:22. > :40:24.event. Something must be done over dredging the River Parrett. Two big
:40:25. > :40:27.rivers flow through the Levels. All agree that the Tone and Parrett
:40:28. > :40:29.would drain beter if regularly dredged, but the Government's
:40:30. > :40:36.Environment Agency is under financial pressure. `` dream better.
:40:37. > :40:41.The challenge for us is how we best use our funding. River water floods
:40:42. > :40:46.the fields, floods out roads and threatens properties. One of the
:40:47. > :40:52.solutions to manage that is to dredge sections of the rivers. That
:40:53. > :40:58.can cost up to ?4 million. It is a challenge for us to justify funding
:40:59. > :41:01.the whole of that. The Environment Agency gets its money from the
:41:02. > :41:04.Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. Defra sets out how
:41:05. > :41:07.that money should be spent. Ministers boast that over four
:41:08. > :41:12.years, funding to tackle flooding will rise to ?2.3 billion. But the
:41:13. > :41:18.big increases are for capital projects. More routine work like
:41:19. > :41:22.keeping rivers flowing will fall. So the Tone and the Parrett may yet
:41:23. > :41:25.again miss out. Local politicians have been preoccupied with problems
:41:26. > :41:31.on the ground, but they are preparing to put pressure on the
:41:32. > :41:34.Government. We have got to get to the point where we clear the main
:41:35. > :41:37.watercourses. We are launching a lobbying campaign and will be
:41:38. > :41:42.lobbying MPs, Defra, central Government. We will ask for help. We
:41:43. > :41:46.need money into the Environment Agency to get these watercourses
:41:47. > :41:49.clear. Floods in Muchelney two winters running swept away the
:41:50. > :41:55.belief that this was a once in a 100 year event. Politicians ranging from
:41:56. > :42:00.the Prime Minister to MEP Graham Watson, who lives nearby, fear it
:42:01. > :42:03.may happen more in future. We do know that the onset of climate
:42:04. > :42:06.change means that weather patterns will be less predictable and the
:42:07. > :42:13.regularity or frequency of something like this might be greater. That is
:42:14. > :42:19.why we need to prepare for less predictable weather patterns in the
:42:20. > :42:23.future. After the deluge comes the clean`up. Only when the waters
:42:24. > :42:26.subside will the full scale of the damage be known. In Gloucestershire,
:42:27. > :42:32.they are once again based for a big road repair bill. At the moment I
:42:33. > :42:36.couldn't envisage what this current flooding will cost us, but what I
:42:37. > :42:39.can say is the 2007 flood, which was considerably more than this one
:42:40. > :42:46.cost the county ?20 million in road repairs and maintenance to put the
:42:47. > :42:49.infrastructure back right. The water should be gone within weeks. The
:42:50. > :42:57.argument over who foots the bill will last much longer.
:42:58. > :43:00.Joining us in the studio now is Dr Richard Johnson, a senior lecturer
:43:01. > :43:04.in physical geography at Bath Spa University, who specialises in
:43:05. > :43:12.flooding. We'll come along. Is there a formula
:43:13. > :43:20.the Government uses? We will spend ?1 million if we save 100 homes from
:43:21. > :43:25.flooding? They would assess whether it is worth while defending those
:43:26. > :43:28.particular assets and risks. It is not only a financial decision. They
:43:29. > :43:33.must consider the implications of actions on the physical environment
:43:34. > :43:39.but also the college as well. It is complicated. The allegation is that
:43:40. > :43:43.the big eye`catching projects seem to get the funding but the dirty
:43:44. > :43:49.routine work, dredging a river, is not such a high priority. Is that
:43:50. > :43:54.fair? Dredging is a complicated issue because, by dredging eight
:43:55. > :43:57.river, you can cause issues in the river system that can cause problems
:43:58. > :44:02.elsewhere and you can impact the ecology of the river. It is not just
:44:03. > :44:09.an economic decision. It is not as simple as we might like to think?
:44:10. > :44:15.OK. Is it fair to expect the taxpayer to protect every property
:44:16. > :44:22.in the country? It is fair to expect the Government to implement flood
:44:23. > :44:25.defence protections. And not, when you see situations like this, where
:44:26. > :44:31.you have flooding of houses and that flooding, you know, the defence
:44:32. > :44:37.might have cost one eighth of what the costs of cleaning up the
:44:38. > :44:41.consequences of the flooding. You are investing to save money and very
:44:42. > :44:45.much like your earlier point about the cost benefits... If there is
:44:46. > :44:48.enough houses, I guess. But if you buy a house on the Somerset Levels,
:44:49. > :44:52.shouldn't the first question you ask me, is this place going to flood,
:44:53. > :44:59.and if it does, can I afford to clean it up? We need to have
:45:00. > :45:02.accurate flood maps. We also need to recognise, you know, quite a lot of
:45:03. > :45:08.the Somerset Levels is on a flood plain. It is the extended periods
:45:09. > :45:13.and the fact you take that what happened last year, it was wet snow
:45:14. > :45:20.and it is still wet in April. The Environment Agency has a much `` has
:45:21. > :45:25.aims and objectives which relate only to wildlife and the prediction
:45:26. > :45:29.of that kind of thing. It does not recognise property and people, which
:45:30. > :45:36.is what the Government has to do. More importantly, in my area, they
:45:37. > :45:43.need dredging to, the rebels. `` the rivers. But it is not justice of the
:45:44. > :45:47.question of dredging. There are other things coming into play. But
:45:48. > :45:53.if you look at the way it works on the Somerset Levels, when a dredge,
:45:54. > :45:57.they take a bucket load out of the river and everyone has to stop work
:45:58. > :46:00.while the measure oxygen levels to make sure the fish have enough
:46:01. > :46:08.oxygen in the water. This means dredging a few miles can take years.
:46:09. > :46:12.What I am saying, if you go back to the old way it was done, I have
:46:13. > :46:15.people who worked in my constituency doing this by hand and it was a
:46:16. > :46:20.gentler way of doing things. One gentleman looked after 11 miles of
:46:21. > :46:24.river every year. That is what he did. We have to get round the fact
:46:25. > :46:28.this work has not been done in 0 years. We need to bring it back up
:46:29. > :46:33.to speed and have a programme of maintenance. With Labour reverse the
:46:34. > :46:38.cuts in environment? I cannot give you a guarantee that we would
:46:39. > :46:44.reverse the cuts. Mariette Eagle, the Shadow environmental Minister,
:46:45. > :46:49.has said she would look at departmental spending very, very
:46:50. > :46:55.carefully. With regards to flooding, I go back to the point I made before
:46:56. > :47:01.that you save money by investing. That is very much, I believe, the
:47:02. > :47:06.view of Labour. Is this particularly unusual this year and can they
:47:07. > :47:11.expect more of the same order just that it just happened this winter?
:47:12. > :47:14.It is significant. People have gone through a lot of trauma as a result.
:47:15. > :47:19.There are many incidences in the recent past of things according I
:47:20. > :47:26.am afraid it will happen again. Jackie. `` thank you. If you have
:47:27. > :47:29.been diagnosed with a serious illness, you would hope to receive
:47:30. > :47:33.the sickness benefit in title to as soon as possible.
:47:34. > :47:36.Here in the West, some people are waiting months with no word as to
:47:37. > :47:40.when money may come through. Delays appear to be down to extra medical
:47:41. > :47:46.tests brought in to try to control the rising bill for welfare.
:47:47. > :47:50.There is never a good time to be told you have terminal cancer, but
:47:51. > :47:55.the 30`year`old Rebecca McCafferty, it happened when she was pregnant
:47:56. > :48:00.with her baby daughter. She had to relay the news to her five other
:48:01. > :48:03.children. That was the worst part. I think that was the most difficult
:48:04. > :48:08.they, sitting them all down and telling them was hard. The older
:48:09. > :48:15.ones particularly, because they understand. Our illness and title
:48:16. > :48:21.totally new Personal Independence Payment from the Government. The
:48:22. > :48:26.money could be as much as ?430 a week to help with the extra costs
:48:27. > :48:29.with a condition. Eight months on and very little correspondence
:48:30. > :48:34.later, she is waiting to be assessed by the Government's chosen
:48:35. > :48:38.contractor. It is just frustrating we are in the situation we are in,
:48:39. > :48:46.and having cancer the Joe Hart, as you can imagine. Having six children
:48:47. > :48:51.with cancer is doubly different We're having financial
:48:52. > :49:00.difficulties, and that makes it ten times harbour. It is avoidable. If
:49:01. > :49:04.the were doing what they were meant to do, we would not be in this
:49:05. > :49:08.situation. The Government says it is too early to release figures about
:49:09. > :49:12.how long people are waiting for Personal Independence Payments. But
:49:13. > :49:16.they admitted is taking longer than expected. At this advice centre in
:49:17. > :49:20.Bristol, just one in 20 claims received since last June and have
:49:21. > :49:26.actually gone through the system. They were expecting it to take 2`15
:49:27. > :49:30.weeks as opposed to six weeks under Disability Living Allowance, but
:49:31. > :49:34.that is stretched out even further. The process of people being assessed
:49:35. > :49:41.has obviously been far more order this than they realise. The
:49:42. > :49:46.paperwork is far more complicated than they expected. In a statement,
:49:47. > :49:49.the Government insisted it was trying to make the process
:49:50. > :49:52.smoother, but added that claimants had not received money would do so
:49:53. > :49:56.eventually and that exceptional cases were being fast tracked. The
:49:57. > :50:01.firm responsible for the assessments has apologised for the delay and
:50:02. > :50:06.says it is hiring more staff, although training takes six months.
:50:07. > :50:10.Underlying all this is a controversial programme of welfare
:50:11. > :50:13.reform. The Government is keen to control the increasing costs of
:50:14. > :50:19.benefits and is after more rigour in the system. That is why it is asked
:50:20. > :50:22.the organisation to do more assessments and paperwork, but
:50:23. > :50:25.delays are mounting up. People in the West have the longest wait in
:50:26. > :50:33.the country to be assessed for employment and support allowance.
:50:34. > :50:38.Labour wants Atos out, but this Gloucester MP believes more the
:50:39. > :50:41.petition is the answer. The bottom line problem is the contract we
:50:42. > :50:45.inherited from the previous Government was with a single
:50:46. > :50:48.supplier. Atos were the only people doing these work capability
:50:49. > :50:54.assessments. Markets do not work well with a monopoly at provider.
:50:55. > :50:59.You need competition. The Government has said it will change this and
:51:00. > :51:05.introduce regional dividers to provide the competition and better
:51:06. > :51:07.service. `` regional providers. They have said this should become
:51:08. > :51:15.operational during the summer of this year. That is a big step
:51:16. > :51:18.forward. Back at home, Rebecca's wait for her benefit goes on, not
:51:19. > :51:24.knowing how long she might have left. Until you are actually in the
:51:25. > :51:32.thick of it, you cannot fully comprehend how difficult it is. It
:51:33. > :51:37.has such an impact on your life To have the Government feel others
:51:38. > :51:43.which is how I feel, they have failed us by putting us in this
:51:44. > :51:50.situation, it makes me so angry It upsets me to think these things
:51:51. > :51:55.should be put in place and they are not put in place for people like us.
:51:56. > :51:59.And we needed. It is a very moving story. That is
:52:00. > :52:03.better news for Rebecca and her family. Since we alerted them
:52:04. > :52:06.actually to her case, they have carried out her assessment, so
:52:07. > :52:09.hopefully she will hear from them soon. We asked for a minister or
:52:10. > :52:32.indeed anyone in terms of people who are newly
:52:33. > :52:38.diagnosed, I do not know them personally very much at all.
:52:39. > :52:44.My organisation is for people who define themselves as a disabled
:52:45. > :52:54.person. I cases such as husbandry? `` I cases like this rare? No, not
:52:55. > :52:58.at all. There are huge delays in the roll`out of this benefit for
:52:59. > :53:01.first`time claimants. They have admitted they just did not
:53:02. > :53:09.appreciate how long the process was going to take to do properly. You're
:53:10. > :53:12.part of this Government, Tessa. How difficult can it be to get a letter
:53:13. > :53:17.from the Government saying this person is dying and they need help?
:53:18. > :53:23.This is the problem. They will not accept the letter from the doctor.
:53:24. > :53:29.It is barmy. It is completely with a kiss. I have people who come to me
:53:30. > :53:38.and are still waiting from March. `` completely ludicrous. It should not
:53:39. > :53:40.take for an MP to intervene for someone to get fairness and justice
:53:41. > :53:47.in this system. We must sort this out properly. You are part of the
:53:48. > :53:53.Government. I spend a good deal of time with my staff... This is to do
:53:54. > :54:03.with Atos. It is a poorly written contract. We need to get people who
:54:04. > :54:12.specialise in doing proper specifications for these contracts.
:54:13. > :54:16.What about the 2% of people? It is a 2% that matter. The lady we saw
:54:17. > :54:19.there was under stress. When you're severely ill, the last thing you
:54:20. > :54:23.need is more stress because it makes you more ill and brings people into
:54:24. > :54:30.a situation where they have mental health problems. What would you do?
:54:31. > :54:35.What would Labour do? We would end the contract with Atos. They have
:54:36. > :54:39.proved time and again, like so many people, that they are incapable of
:54:40. > :54:49.delivering a benefit to people when the `` when the absolutely needed
:54:50. > :54:52.most. Do you accept the Government is right to make it more rigorous in
:54:53. > :54:57.their assessment of people claiming disability benefits to try and cut
:54:58. > :55:01.the bill? No, they should make it more effective as an assessment
:55:02. > :55:05.which is not the same thing. At the moment, enormous amounts of money
:55:06. > :55:15.have been wasted on unnecessary appeals. It is estimated 32 people a
:55:16. > :55:18.week are dying while waiting for the result when they have been told that
:55:19. > :55:22.they should be able to work either immediately or in the near future.
:55:23. > :55:27.You're going along and John being assessed by people who know what the
:55:28. > :55:32.impact of having impairments is a black person's day`to`day life.
:55:33. > :55:38.Claims for disability benefit have gone up hugely. But now, this
:55:39. > :55:44.statistic is about Disability Living Allowance. Where it has gone up most
:55:45. > :55:50.is in the two sections of claimants are not affected. That is children
:55:51. > :55:53.and older people. Working age population, although the period
:55:54. > :55:59.described, their own figures say 4% increase. Do you accept the
:56:00. > :56:03.Government is right to examine people very carefully before being
:56:04. > :56:09.allowed to have disability benefits? We saw in the Olympics just what
:56:10. > :56:13.disabled people can achieve. Absolutely. I can not agree more
:56:14. > :56:18.about the disabled Olympics and the demonstration that gave about
:56:19. > :56:24.disabled people's achievements. There has always been a test process
:56:25. > :56:29.around getting benefits associated with disability. That is not the
:56:30. > :56:38.issue. The issue is the competence and the level of test that people
:56:39. > :56:43.are being put through. I must say, it is not just them actually. I had
:56:44. > :56:49.the same issue with the Department of work and pensions. I filled out a
:56:50. > :56:53.form saying I cannot walk because I have problems with nerve pain. I
:56:54. > :56:58.would get a response saying, you're not good to get it, you could have a
:56:59. > :57:02.walking stick. So you have had similar problems with the state as
:57:03. > :57:07.well? Now it is time for a look at the
:57:08. > :57:11.week just gone in 60 seconds. A charity has claimed that each
:57:12. > :57:15.badger shot in the West last autumn cost more than ?4000. Care for the
:57:16. > :57:18.Wild produced the figures. The Government insisted the costs were
:57:19. > :57:22.outweighed by the expense to farmers by bovine TB.
:57:23. > :57:27.Supporters of the English Defence League clashed with antifascist
:57:28. > :57:31.groups in Bristol on Tuesday night. They were protesting after
:57:32. > :57:35.permission was granted for a mosque. A big beast in West Country politics
:57:36. > :57:38.is to step down at the next election. Don Foster, the MP for
:57:39. > :57:44.Bath, has decided that 23 years in the House is enough. He also warned
:57:45. > :57:48.me he might be looking for a career in broadcasting. What happens to you
:57:49. > :57:52.next? I have no idea. One of your BBC colleagues has just invited me
:57:53. > :57:56.to come and take over your job, so I will look all forward to doing that.
:57:57. > :57:59.And a new political arrival has already sparked controversy. Debate
:58:00. > :58:02.is raging over whether the baby of Chippenham MP Duncan Hanes and
:58:03. > :58:03.Government minister Jo Swinson should be allowed in the voting
:58:04. > :58:17.chamber. So much to talk about it. Is it the
:58:18. > :58:23.right time for Don to hang up his hat? It is clearly a time when Don
:58:24. > :58:28.thinks it is the right time. Is he getting out while the years ahead?
:58:29. > :58:34.He is getting out while he has had a good run. He has had a fantastic
:58:35. > :58:39.time as the MP for Bath and Diaz had a crack at getting things right as a
:58:40. > :58:43.minister. Now he is my Chief Whip. He is a man with a sense of humour.
:58:44. > :58:51.Got to do what you're told? I would not go that far. Let's talk about
:58:52. > :58:56.babies. This idea about having your baby in your arms in the houses of
:58:57. > :59:03.commons. `` House of Commons. Should this be allowed? It is great that as
:59:04. > :59:08.a society, we have got a lot of moderate setting `` a lot more
:59:09. > :59:12.accenting of women having babies with them in all sorts of
:59:13. > :59:16.environments. Equally, the House of Commons is a particularly bizarre
:59:17. > :59:25.work lace and does not keep normal hours. It is almost inevitable. .
:59:26. > :59:33.What you think, Tessa? Should babies be welcome? We have to have some
:59:34. > :59:37.common sense. At 10pm on Monday night whenever we go through the
:59:38. > :59:42.voting lobby, which is not on the television and completely out of
:59:43. > :59:45.your the public, I do not think I would get excited if they chose to
:59:46. > :59:51.walk through the lobby with her baby. Taking children into the
:59:52. > :59:56.chamber, completely not. I would not have taken a child to work. I was a
:59:57. > :00:02.teacher. I never took my children into the classroom. I think
:00:03. > :00:08.moderation in all things, but let's be practical. Babies are very
:00:09. > :00:12.welcome here. Thank you. That's all we have time for this
:00:13. > :00:15.week. Thank you to our guests. If you want to see more on the
:00:16. > :00:20.flooding, tune into a special report tomorrow night on BBC One. This
:00:21. > :00:22.programme is available again on their BBC iPlayer. Now back
:00:23. > :00:33.will not be revoked. And I wouldn't want it to go. Thank you, back to
:00:34. > :00:39.Andrew. Can David Cameron get his way on EU
:00:40. > :00:43.migration? Will he ever be able to satisfy his backbenchers on Europe?
:00:44. > :00:53.Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of PMQ 's? More questions for
:00:54. > :00:57.the week ahead. We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg
:00:58. > :01:02.from his constituency in Somerset. Welcome to the programme. You one of
:01:03. > :01:09.the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed this letter? Suddenly. Laws should
:01:10. > :01:17.be made by our democratically elected representatives, not from
:01:18. > :01:25.Brussels. How could Europe work with a pick and mix in which each
:01:26. > :01:31.national parliament can decide what Brussels can be in charge of? The
:01:32. > :01:34.European Union is a supernatural body that is there for the
:01:35. > :01:41.cooperation amongst member states to do things that they jointly want to
:01:42. > :01:44.do. It ought not be there to force -- to enforce uniform rules on
:01:45. > :01:47.countries that do not want to participate. It is the vision of
:01:48. > :01:53.Europe that people joined when we signed up to it and came in in 973.
:01:54. > :01:58.It has accreted powers to itself without having the support of the
:01:59. > :02:02.public of the member states. This is just a way of preparing the ground
:02:03. > :02:07.for you to get out of Europe altogether, isn't it? I do not big
:02:08. > :02:12.so. There is a role for an organisation that does some
:02:13. > :02:17.coordination and that has trade agreements within it, I do not think
:02:18. > :02:21.there is a role for a federal state. Europe seems to be dominating the. I
:02:22. > :02:26.remember your leader telling you not to bang on about Europe, your
:02:27. > :02:31.backbench colleagues seem to have ignored that. Would you like to
:02:32. > :02:38.restrict the flow of EU migrants to come to work in this country? Yes. I
:02:39. > :02:43.think we should have control of our own borders, so we can decide who we
:02:44. > :02:46.want to admit for the whole world. What we have at the moment is a
:02:47. > :02:52.restrictive control of people coming from anywhere other than the EU
:02:53. > :02:57.There is a big decrease in the number of New Zealanders who came in
:02:58. > :03:01.the last quarter for which figures are available, but a huge increase
:03:02. > :03:05.in people coming from the continent. Does it really make sense to stop
:03:06. > :03:09.our second cousins coming so that we can allow people freely to come from
:03:10. > :03:14.the continent? I do not think so, we need to have domestic control of our
:03:15. > :03:18.borders in the interests of the United Kingdom. There are still lots
:03:19. > :03:23.more people coming from the rest of the world than from the European
:03:24. > :03:30.Union. That has been changing. But there are still more. A lot more.
:03:31. > :03:36.The permanent residence coming from the European Union are extremely
:03:37. > :03:40.high. In the period when the Labour Party was in charge, we had to put 5
:03:41. > :03:45.million people coming here, of whom about 1 billion were from Poland. --
:03:46. > :03:53.we had 2.5 million people coming here. We have no control over them.
:03:54. > :03:58.Like the clock behind you, you are behind the times on these figures. I
:03:59. > :04:01.have stopped the clock for your benefit, because it was going to
:04:02. > :04:09.chime otherwise! I thought that might be distracting! Only a Tory
:04:10. > :04:20.backbencher could stop a clock! Helen, when you at this up, it is
:04:21. > :04:22.preparing to get out, is it not We have had this one bill about a
:04:23. > :04:28.referendum that seems to have tied us up in knots for months on end. If
:04:29. > :04:34.Parliament could scrutinise every piece of EU legislation, we would
:04:35. > :04:39.never get anything else done. It would be incredible. Even Chris
:04:40. > :04:46.Grayling said earlier that you can not have a national veto on anything
:04:47. > :04:49.that the EU proposes. I am surprised that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking
:04:50. > :04:54.about dismantling one of Margaret Thatcher's most important legacies,
:04:55. > :04:59.the creation of the single market, and the person sent there to dream
:05:00. > :05:03.it up under Margaret Thatcher said the only way you can run this
:05:04. > :05:07.sensibly is by not having national vetoes, because if you have that,
:05:08. > :05:12.guess what will happen? The French will impose lots of protectionist
:05:13. > :05:14.measures. It was Margaret Thatcher's idea that national
:05:15. > :05:22.parliaments should never veto. How could you fly in the face of the
:05:23. > :05:30.lady? Even the great lady makes mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg
:05:31. > :05:36.says even Margaret Thatcher makes mistakes! No wonder the clock has
:05:37. > :05:42.stopped! Even be near divine Margaret made a mistake! But on the
:05:43. > :05:48.single market, it has been used as an excuse for massive origination of
:05:49. > :05:51.domestic affairs. We should be interested in free trade in Europe
:05:52. > :05:56.and allowing people to export and import freely, not to have uniform
:05:57. > :06:02.regulations, as per the single market, because what that allows is
:06:03. > :06:04.thought unelected bureaucrats to determine the regular vision. We
:06:05. > :06:09.want the British people to decide the rules for themselves. If this
:06:10. > :06:13.makes the single market not work, that is not the problem, because we
:06:14. > :06:19.can still have free trade, which is more important. If David Cameron is
:06:20. > :06:26.watching this, I am sure he is, it will be nice for you to come on and
:06:27. > :06:32.give us an interview, he must be worried. He is beginning to think, I
:06:33. > :06:38.am losing control. It is a clever letter, the tone is ingratiating and
:06:39. > :06:41.pleasant, every time, you have stood up to Brussels, you have achieved
:06:42. > :06:47.something, but the content is dramatic. If you want Parliament to
:06:48. > :06:50.have a veto, you want to leave the EU, because the definition is
:06:51. > :06:55.accepting the primacy of European law. The MPs should be clear about
:06:56. > :06:59.that. It is almost a year since the Europe speech in which David Cameron
:07:00. > :07:04.committed to the referendum. The political objective was to put that
:07:05. > :07:09.issue to bed until the next election. It has failed. David
:07:10. > :07:13.Cameron is going to have to pull off a major miracle in any
:07:14. > :07:21.renegotiations to satisfy all of this. Yes, it makes me think how
:07:22. > :07:24.much luckier he has been in coalition with the Liberal
:07:25. > :07:27.Democrats, because there is a bit of the Tory party that is
:07:28. > :07:32.irreconcilable to what he wants to do. The Conservative MPs are making
:07:33. > :07:37.these demands just as David Cameron is seeing the debate goes his way in
:07:38. > :07:42.Europe. Angela Merkel has looked over the cliff and said, do I want
:07:43. > :07:48.the UK out? No, they are a counterbalance to France. France one
:07:49. > :07:52.the UK to leave, but they do not, because they do not want to lose the
:07:53. > :07:56.only realistic military power Tom other than themselves. Just when the
:07:57. > :08:04.debate is going David Cameron's way, Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out.
:08:05. > :08:09.Let me move on to another subject. That is nonsense. The debate is not
:08:10. > :08:14.beginning to go David Cameron's way. We are having before us on Monday a
:08:15. > :08:20.bill about European citizenship and spending British taxpayers money so
:08:21. > :08:23.that Europe can go and say we are all EU citizens, but we signed up to
:08:24. > :08:29.being a part of a multinational organisation. The spin that it is
:08:30. > :08:33.going the way of the leader of a political party is one that has been
:08:34. > :08:39.used before, it was said of John Major, it was untrue then and it is
:08:40. > :08:44.now. It is, for the continuing deeper integration of the European
:08:45. > :08:51.Union. I want to ask a quick question. Chris Grayling said to us
:08:52. > :08:56.that the Tories would devise a way in which the British Supreme Court
:08:57. > :08:59.would be supreme in the proper meaning of that, but we could still
:09:00. > :09:06.be within the European Court of Human Rights. Can that circle be
:09:07. > :09:12.squared? I have no idea, the Lord Chancellor is an able man, and I am
:09:13. > :09:18.sure he is good at squaring circles. I am not worried about whether we
:09:19. > :09:25.remain in the convention or not PMQ 's, we saw a bit about this week,
:09:26. > :09:32.Paul Gorgons had died, so the house was more subdued, but he wants a
:09:33. > :09:34.more subdued and serious prime ministers questions. Let's remind
:09:35. > :09:40.ourselves what it was like until now.
:09:41. > :09:43.What is clear is that he is floundering around and he has no
:09:44. > :09:50.answer to the Labour Party's energy price freeze. The difference is
:09:51. > :09:54.John Major is a good man, the Right Honourable gentleman is acting like
:09:55. > :09:59.a conman. Across the medical profession, they say there is a
:10:00. > :10:04.crisis in accident and emergency, and we have a Prime Minister saying,
:10:05. > :10:08.crisis, what crisis? How out of touch can hate the? You do not need
:10:09. > :10:18.it to be Christmas to know when you are sitting next to a turkey.
:10:19. > :10:21.It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband trying to change the tone of prime
:10:22. > :10:26.ministers questions? Is he right to do so? The important point is this
:10:27. > :10:32.was a special prime ministers questions, because everybody was
:10:33. > :10:36.really sad and by the death of Paul Goggins and in the country, the
:10:37. > :10:39.legacy of the floods. That was the first question that Ed Miliband
:10:40. > :10:45.asked about, so that cast a pall over proceedings. When it suits him,
:10:46. > :10:49.Ed Miliband would like to take a more statesman-like stance, but will
:10:50. > :10:54.it last? That is how David Cameron started. His first prime ministers
:10:55. > :10:58.questions, he said to Tony Blair, I would like to support you on
:10:59. > :11:03.education, and he did in a vote which meant Tony Blair could see off
:11:04. > :11:10.a naughty operation from Gordon Brown. But it did not last, they are
:11:11. > :11:15.parties with different visions. Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to
:11:16. > :11:20.see it more subdued? I like a bit of Punch and Judy. You need to have
:11:21. > :11:25.fierce debate and people putting their views passionately, it is
:11:26. > :11:30.excellent. I am not good at it, I sit there quite quietly, but it is
:11:31. > :11:36.great fun, very exciting, and it is the most watched bit of the House of
:11:37. > :11:39.Commons each week. If it got as dull as ditchwater, nobody would pay
:11:40. > :11:45.attention. Three cheers for Punch and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to
:11:46. > :11:51.make a major speech on the economy this week. You can now define the
:11:52. > :11:56.general approach. We had it from Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over
:11:57. > :12:02.energy prices, this market is bust, the market is not working properly,
:12:03. > :12:06.and that will therefore justify substantial government intervention.
:12:07. > :12:11.Intervention which does not necessarily cost money. It is the
:12:12. > :12:14.deletion and reorganising industries. It constitutes an answer
:12:15. > :12:17.to the question which has been hounding him, what is the point of
:12:18. > :12:21.the Labour Party when there is no money left? He says, you do not
:12:22. > :12:26.spend a huge amount fiscally, but you arrange markets to achieve
:12:27. > :12:32.socially just outcomes without expenditure. It is quite serious
:12:33. > :12:37.stance. I am not sure it will survive the rigours of an election
:12:38. > :12:41.campaign, but it is an answer. Is that an approach, to use broken
:12:42. > :12:47.markets, to justify substantial state intervention? Yes, and the
:12:48. > :12:50.other big plank is infrastructure spending. The Lib Dems would not be
:12:51. > :12:56.against capital investment for info structure will stop Emma Reynolds
:12:57. > :12:59.talking about house-building, the idea of pumping money into the
:13:00. > :13:04.economy through infrastructure is something that the Labour Party will
:13:05. > :13:10.look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once thought Somerset should have its own
:13:11. > :13:16.time zone, and today, you have delivered on that promise! Live on
:13:17. > :13:22.the Sunday Politics! I try to deliver on my promises!
:13:23. > :13:26.That is all for today, the Daily Politics is on BBC Two every day
:13:27. > :13:33.this week, just before lunch. I aren't back next Sunday here on BBC
:13:34. > :13:39.One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.