:00:37. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:45. > :00:49.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:50. > :00:54.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:55. > :00:57.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:58. > :01:17.views of a Sunday Politics focus group. A
:01:18. > :01:21.And can governments ever legislate against violent extremism? Muslim,
:01:22. > :01:24.Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from who
:01:25. > :01:27.else but the Minister for Portsmouth.
:01:28. > :01:32.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the
:01:33. > :01:35.business: and in London, Boris Johnson has pledged to recruit more
:01:36. > :01:46.volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting
:01:47. > :01:49.throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is
:01:50. > :01:51.considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party s
:01:52. > :02:01.former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer
:02:02. > :02:04.appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against
:02:05. > :02:06.him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate
:02:07. > :02:17.behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are
:02:18. > :02:20.demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for
:02:21. > :02:24.and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going
:02:25. > :02:30.away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got
:02:31. > :02:36.seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a
:02:37. > :02:41.reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no
:02:42. > :02:45.female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not
:02:46. > :02:50.encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it You
:02:51. > :02:56.feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous
:02:57. > :03:02.process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the
:03:03. > :03:06.evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But
:03:07. > :03:10.clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible
:03:11. > :03:18.and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.
:03:19. > :03:22.Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat
:03:23. > :03:27.peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not
:03:28. > :03:34.reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political
:03:35. > :03:39.issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party
:03:40. > :03:43.whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster
:03:44. > :03:50.enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,
:03:51. > :03:53.it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from
:03:54. > :03:58.the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They
:03:59. > :04:01.presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more
:04:02. > :04:16.Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder
:04:17. > :04:19.to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more
:04:20. > :04:24.relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.
:04:25. > :04:30.That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib
:04:31. > :04:35.Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything
:04:36. > :04:40.that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of
:04:41. > :04:44.Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of
:04:45. > :04:49.what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a
:04:50. > :04:56.cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage
:04:57. > :04:59.the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there
:05:00. > :05:05.was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the
:05:06. > :05:09.by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it
:05:10. > :05:14.did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without
:05:15. > :05:19.their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go
:05:20. > :05:29.away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will
:05:30. > :05:32.come week. -- will come up this week.
:05:33. > :05:35.So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of
:05:36. > :05:38.this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the
:05:39. > :05:41.polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal
:05:42. > :05:44.Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went
:05:45. > :05:47.to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.
:05:48. > :05:49.Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have
:05:50. > :05:54.recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have
:05:55. > :05:57.not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the
:05:58. > :06:00.one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John
:06:01. > :06:04.Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib
:06:05. > :06:08.Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the
:06:09. > :06:15.outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of
:06:16. > :06:23.character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit
:06:24. > :06:31.bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.
:06:32. > :06:34.Morrison's own brand of biscuit not top of the range like Marks
:06:35. > :06:44.Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between
:06:45. > :06:47.David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they
:06:48. > :06:50.had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find
:06:51. > :07:00.it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.
:07:01. > :07:05.Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,
:07:06. > :07:08.let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck
:07:09. > :07:15.between a rock and a hard place for them as a party, I feel slightly
:07:16. > :07:19.sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are
:07:20. > :07:23.victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition I
:07:24. > :07:29.think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a
:07:30. > :07:33.lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so
:07:34. > :07:42.publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?
:07:43. > :07:46.It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state
:07:47. > :07:53.of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not
:07:54. > :07:59.quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,
:08:00. > :08:03.so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on
:08:04. > :08:07.their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done
:08:08. > :08:09.anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible
:08:10. > :08:14.for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they
:08:15. > :08:22.have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed
:08:23. > :08:25.that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is
:08:26. > :08:40.interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk
:08:41. > :08:44.about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?
:08:45. > :08:47.Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like
:08:48. > :08:50.him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he
:08:51. > :08:58.says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very
:08:59. > :09:04.charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few
:09:05. > :09:08.times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.
:09:09. > :09:11.That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the
:09:12. > :09:14.party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a
:09:15. > :09:21.blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and
:09:22. > :09:36.Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have
:09:37. > :09:39.been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence
:09:40. > :09:42.and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned
:09:43. > :09:46.and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib
:09:47. > :09:49.Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned
:09:50. > :09:54.out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have
:09:55. > :10:00.for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your
:10:01. > :10:08.word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.
:10:09. > :10:15.DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for
:10:16. > :10:19.failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group
:10:20. > :10:25.represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be
:10:26. > :10:30.at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and
:10:31. > :10:33.then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,
:10:34. > :10:40.the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their
:10:41. > :10:43.own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are
:10:44. > :10:47.in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the
:10:48. > :10:51.Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of
:10:52. > :11:00.anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.
:11:01. > :11:04.And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary
:11:05. > :11:08.to the Treasury Danny Alexander Welcome to the programme. One of the
:11:09. > :11:12.things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any
:11:13. > :11:18.credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are
:11:19. > :11:22.getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first
:11:23. > :11:26.thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was
:11:27. > :11:32.not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right
:11:33. > :11:36.beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to
:11:37. > :11:40.deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour
:11:41. > :11:45.left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one
:11:46. > :11:52.focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very
:11:53. > :11:56.hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering
:11:57. > :12:00.without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the
:12:01. > :12:05.largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal
:12:06. > :12:08.Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to
:12:09. > :12:15.is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise
:12:16. > :12:22.that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your
:12:23. > :12:26.measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income
:12:27. > :12:31.tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The
:12:32. > :12:35.role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are
:12:36. > :12:39.the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a
:12:40. > :12:44.strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We
:12:45. > :12:53.saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour
:12:54. > :12:57.Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income
:12:58. > :13:02.tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do
:13:03. > :13:06.not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots
:13:07. > :13:10.of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,
:13:11. > :13:16.people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged
:13:17. > :13:20.children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard
:13:21. > :13:24.between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we
:13:25. > :13:29.secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery
:13:30. > :13:33.is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We
:13:34. > :13:37.need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people
:13:38. > :13:46.who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their
:13:47. > :13:49.savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem
:13:50. > :13:53.policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the
:13:54. > :13:59.need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big
:14:00. > :14:02.hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We
:14:03. > :14:09.have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay
:14:10. > :14:12.commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this
:14:13. > :14:18.announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other
:14:19. > :14:22.things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we
:14:23. > :14:27.have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get
:14:28. > :14:31.Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is
:14:32. > :14:35.something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay
:14:36. > :14:40.commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this
:14:41. > :14:44.stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?
:14:45. > :14:50.I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We
:14:51. > :14:54.have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic
:14:55. > :14:58.impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has
:14:59. > :15:06.credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not
:15:07. > :15:10.be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince
:15:11. > :15:19.Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,
:15:20. > :15:23.he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don t
:15:24. > :15:29.clear every word I say with him I don't expect him to do the same to
:15:30. > :15:38.me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was
:15:39. > :15:42.blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay
:15:43. > :15:49.commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the
:15:50. > :15:55.financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also
:15:56. > :16:00.right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the
:16:01. > :16:05.commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have
:16:06. > :16:13.to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are
:16:14. > :16:15.the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed
:16:16. > :16:20.that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees and
:16:21. > :16:26.that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in
:16:27. > :16:30.Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear
:16:31. > :16:39.about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,
:16:40. > :16:44.the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies
:16:45. > :16:51.in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The
:16:52. > :17:00.big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.
:17:01. > :17:05.That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of
:17:06. > :17:09.working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our
:17:10. > :17:15.economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make
:17:16. > :17:20.sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum
:17:21. > :17:26.wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit
:17:27. > :17:30.is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the
:17:31. > :17:35.confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 1
:17:36. > :17:42.months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look
:17:43. > :17:48.largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus
:17:49. > :17:53.group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I
:17:54. > :18:03.have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we
:18:04. > :18:08.are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,
:18:09. > :18:14.it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.
:18:15. > :18:20.Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than
:18:21. > :18:23.benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to
:18:24. > :18:28.have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right
:18:29. > :18:32.thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib
:18:33. > :18:38.Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the
:18:39. > :18:43.way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests
:18:44. > :18:49.of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,
:18:50. > :18:55.stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in
:18:56. > :19:03.meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 20 5
:19:04. > :19:07.election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a
:19:08. > :19:11.very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the
:19:12. > :19:14.economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the
:19:15. > :19:21.problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the
:19:22. > :19:25.biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is
:19:26. > :19:30.either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative
:19:31. > :19:34.government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want
:19:35. > :19:38.us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a
:19:39. > :19:43.disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week
:19:44. > :19:47.that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury
:19:48. > :19:53.that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a
:19:54. > :19:57.negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take
:19:58. > :20:02.anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the
:20:03. > :20:06.markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few
:20:07. > :20:13.questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still
:20:14. > :20:17.borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people
:20:18. > :20:30.were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious
:20:31. > :20:34.concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond
:20:35. > :20:41.market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.
:20:42. > :20:45.That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather
:20:46. > :20:51.than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a
:20:52. > :20:55.bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to
:20:56. > :20:59.allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in
:21:00. > :21:02.the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because
:21:03. > :21:08.Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it
:21:09. > :21:11.was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus
:21:12. > :21:17.group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this
:21:18. > :21:22.aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the
:21:23. > :21:28.bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at
:21:29. > :21:35.RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached
:21:36. > :21:43.by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach
:21:44. > :21:51.from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in
:21:52. > :21:55.government, massive reductions. . I'm not asking you about that, I'm
:21:56. > :22:04.asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to
:22:05. > :22:08.sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has
:22:09. > :22:14.38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what
:22:15. > :22:20.possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right
:22:21. > :22:29.to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is
:22:30. > :22:33.mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they
:22:34. > :22:37.might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be
:22:38. > :22:42.sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you
:22:43. > :22:48.said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the
:22:49. > :22:54.taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic
:22:55. > :22:59.retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him
:23:00. > :23:05.of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We
:23:06. > :23:15.have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued
:23:16. > :23:19.on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear
:23:20. > :23:23.that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard
:23:24. > :23:28.that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm
:23:29. > :23:34.caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for
:23:35. > :23:42.Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to
:23:43. > :23:48.apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't
:23:49. > :23:51.think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House
:23:52. > :23:58.of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the
:23:59. > :24:01.apology, has been done properly We are very democratic party, it is a
:24:02. > :24:07.matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that
:24:08. > :24:12.judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about
:24:13. > :24:15.the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need
:24:16. > :24:21.to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because
:24:22. > :24:28.these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken
:24:29. > :24:34.a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology
:24:35. > :24:38.does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of
:24:39. > :24:42.the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken
:24:43. > :24:50.hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has
:24:51. > :24:56.not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.
:24:57. > :25:03.Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.
:25:04. > :25:10.Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am
:25:11. > :25:14.making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable and
:25:15. > :25:21.therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view
:25:22. > :25:28.and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the
:25:29. > :25:33.House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group
:25:34. > :25:40.in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they
:25:41. > :25:47.can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...
:25:48. > :25:59.Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to
:26:00. > :26:03.decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple
:26:04. > :26:09.human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is
:26:10. > :26:26.totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --
:26:27. > :26:32.divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total
:26:33. > :26:37.nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we
:26:38. > :26:42.have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment
:26:43. > :26:47.on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid
:26:48. > :26:50.down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which
:26:51. > :26:54.asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty
:26:55. > :27:02.of confidentiality and responsibility under the data
:27:03. > :27:15.protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in
:27:16. > :27:19.a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why
:27:20. > :27:25.should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven
:27:26. > :27:30.allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not
:27:31. > :27:33.been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to
:27:34. > :27:38.continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the
:27:39. > :27:44.recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.
:27:45. > :27:50.Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris
:27:51. > :27:57.Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits He
:27:58. > :28:01.says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party
:28:02. > :28:07.because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those
:28:08. > :28:15.rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.
:28:16. > :28:18.The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of
:28:19. > :28:24.which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found
:28:25. > :28:28.distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't
:28:29. > :28:41.think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it
:28:42. > :28:47.both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a
:28:48. > :28:51.proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the
:28:52. > :28:56.time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most
:28:57. > :29:01.important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made
:29:02. > :29:12.that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on
:29:13. > :29:19.the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We
:29:20. > :29:24.just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank
:29:25. > :29:41.you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.
:29:42. > :29:45.Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to
:29:46. > :29:48.run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the
:29:49. > :29:51.revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies
:29:52. > :29:53.were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital
:29:54. > :29:56.communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how
:29:57. > :29:58.worried should we be about their clandestine activity?
:29:59. > :30:00.In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that
:30:01. > :30:06.America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called
:30:07. > :30:10.Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from
:30:11. > :30:16.around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This
:30:17. > :30:20.week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,
:30:21. > :30:27.including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions
:30:28. > :30:37.of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela
:30:38. > :30:39.Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused
:30:40. > :30:44.to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign
:30:45. > :30:52.Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks
:30:53. > :30:55.and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of
:30:56. > :30:58.the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in
:30:59. > :31:08.on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to
:31:09. > :31:13.go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel
:31:14. > :31:16.Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major
:31:17. > :31:22.changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was
:31:23. > :31:26.up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of
:31:27. > :31:31.thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that
:31:32. > :31:36.is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,
:31:37. > :31:40.has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is
:31:41. > :31:48.up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a
:31:49. > :31:53.call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people
:31:54. > :31:57.can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information
:31:58. > :32:01.will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real
:32:02. > :32:05.commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the
:32:06. > :32:09.system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is
:32:10. > :32:14.oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not
:32:15. > :32:18.mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee
:32:19. > :32:24.said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by
:32:25. > :32:31.Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.
:32:32. > :32:41.The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to
:32:42. > :32:47.approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president
:32:48. > :32:51.does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an
:32:52. > :32:56.establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the
:32:57. > :33:02.committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In
:33:03. > :33:06.this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her
:33:07. > :33:11.European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the
:33:12. > :33:15.interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.
:33:16. > :33:20.But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are
:33:21. > :33:25.having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency
:33:26. > :33:29.should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more
:33:30. > :33:34.safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you
:33:35. > :33:39.cannot see the data, you cannot take the connections and see the
:33:40. > :33:44.patterns. Some people never talk about the threat from terrorism it
:33:45. > :33:48.is all about travesty. There are several thousand people in this
:33:49. > :33:52.country, as we are talking, who are actively planning to do a country
:33:53. > :33:58.harm. When this debate started in the US, the NSA head stood up and
:33:59. > :34:04.said there are 54 plots that have been detected by this capability
:34:05. > :34:11.that has detected and that in bulk. Now the head of the NSA has admitted
:34:12. > :34:16.that the number is actually zero. It is not the intelligence committee in
:34:17. > :34:21.the US that did the work to reduce that number, it was a Judiciary
:34:22. > :34:24.Committee. The fact that we have two different bodies doing this in this
:34:25. > :34:31.country, it means that you do not get the correct view. How can people
:34:32. > :34:37.have confidence in a body when if you go around Europe, for example,
:34:38. > :34:42.or the world, we are not at the end not requiring judges to not sign
:34:43. > :34:46.warrants? I do not accept that the committee failed on that range of
:34:47. > :34:52.issues. You look at the reports on 7/7. Two reports by the committee
:34:53. > :34:56.get to the heart of it. If you look at that terrorist attack on our
:34:57. > :35:01.country, people will say, why did you not have them on the radar? The
:35:02. > :35:07.agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be
:35:08. > :35:15.subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about
:35:16. > :35:20.Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular basis and I know about the
:35:21. > :35:27.capabilities that we have got. Some of the names of these programmes, we
:35:28. > :35:32.would not necessarily know. But did you know that GCHQ had the
:35:33. > :35:37.capability to use Dishfire, or to get Dishfire material from the NSA?
:35:38. > :35:42.I knew and my committee knew that we had the capability to collect data,
:35:43. > :35:46.and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline
:35:47. > :35:51.telephones, they use the Internet and text in, so it is important that
:35:52. > :35:57.the agencies are able to keep up with that take the logical change.
:35:58. > :36:01.What should happen? The proper legal framework should include, if a
:36:02. > :36:06.company is cooperating, as Google and Facebook do, it should be
:36:07. > :36:13.illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. In the US, Lundberg estimate that
:36:14. > :36:17.this has driven a 35mm and hole in the US economy because people do not
:36:18. > :36:22.trust but there are systems are secure. We need to know that GCHQ
:36:23. > :36:26.are not trying to use a different door into the system, whether by
:36:27. > :36:33.hacking or foreign intelligence We need judicial oversight with judges
:36:34. > :36:38.and not politicians signing off The final 30 seconds to you. As a result
:36:39. > :36:42.of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is
:36:43. > :36:46.accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes
:36:47. > :36:52.are taking place, and I am up for the debate if we need more change or
:36:53. > :36:56.not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the
:36:57. > :37:00.people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to
:37:01. > :37:03.11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:04. > :37:05.minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that
:37:06. > :37:58.dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! The government prides itself on
:37:59. > :38:01.localism, so we'll be asking if councillors really have any choice
:38:02. > :38:08.to do anything but freeze their rates. Today, we'll be talking
:38:09. > :38:14.politics with both sides of the coalition. Neil Carmichael is a Tory
:38:15. > :38:22.MP for Stroud. And we have a Lib Dem MP from Bath as well. Let's start by
:38:23. > :38:26.talking about the contentious badger cull in the West. We discovered
:38:27. > :38:31.costs would just five times more than expected and the government was
:38:32. > :38:37.forced to admit it may have overstated the number of herds with
:38:38. > :38:43.TB due to a computer glitch. This is a farce, isn't it? Well, we know how
:38:44. > :38:49.many cattle have been slaughtered because of TB. We also know how many
:38:50. > :38:58.farmers across my area at least have then back I have been punished for
:38:59. > :39:06.it. The number of slaughterings that have taken place have been
:39:07. > :39:15.considerable. What we have to do is get this right for the badgers as
:39:16. > :39:24.well. Don Foster, it seems to be incompetence. We've learnt a great
:39:25. > :39:28.deal from these trials. We have a very serious problem. Sadly, we
:39:29. > :39:32.haven't got a vaccine and were told we won't have one for quite some
:39:33. > :39:37.time to come. That is why we had these trials. I think the government
:39:38. > :39:41.now is to come forward to Parliament to be very clear about what has
:39:42. > :39:45.happened with the trials and then to bring to Parliament proposals for
:39:46. > :39:49.what we do next. It is not a foregone conclusion we will see a
:39:50. > :39:53.expansion of the current programme until we've got right some of the
:39:54. > :40:02.things that you rightly say we clearly need to sort out. Raise
:40:03. > :40:07.council tax if you dare. That is the tough message from Eric Pickles On
:40:08. > :40:10.a visit to the West Country on Thursday he put the boot into one
:40:11. > :40:13.Conservative run council and gave a strong hint he will clamp down
:40:14. > :40:19.harder than ever on those who refuse to freeze the tax.
:40:20. > :40:22.He is the man they love to hate A politician who talks tough to
:40:23. > :40:27.councils. Eric Pickles was in Somerset and Butcher on Thursday. He
:40:28. > :40:44.toured council officers hearing how they found new ways to save money.
:40:45. > :40:55.Here, council tax laws back back pack `` council taxes will not rise.
:40:56. > :41:01.Somehow it seems as if he wants to get his own back on us. Actually, we
:41:02. > :41:04.are the most efficient deliveries of public services. We are taking by
:41:05. > :41:13.far the biggest hit in the austerity gut. That did not go down too well
:41:14. > :41:17.with the minister. It is convenient for people to hide behind the cap.
:41:18. > :41:22.The cap is gone. They have to make a decision. I don't think it shows
:41:23. > :41:26.much leadership to put an increased slightly below the cap. Alaska men
:41:27. > :41:40.used to cap the amount council tax increased will stop back at the last
:41:41. > :41:48.government this year, it could be 1.5%. That could be a problem for
:41:49. > :41:50.police forces. On Wednesday, Wilts's Police and Crime
:41:51. > :41:59.Commissioner set out the reasons why. Wilts is one of the third most
:42:00. > :42:02.efficient forces in the country as far as spending goes. Our spending
:42:03. > :42:08.on local policing is lower than the average, so there is no reason why
:42:09. > :42:14.we shouldn't come back up to where we are. That is what people want.
:42:15. > :42:20.The final decision will be taken next month. By then, a 2% rise could
:42:21. > :42:26.be enough to prompt a referendum, judging by the Minister's response.
:42:27. > :42:34.They have to take the electorate into their confidence. I'm quite
:42:35. > :42:48.blind to politics. I will treat conservatives, labour, the Lib Dems,
:42:49. > :42:57.independence, exactly the same way. But his power over our tax bills
:42:58. > :43:03.does have some limits. Many parish council is also rising taxes. The
:43:04. > :43:08.main reason? Cuts in government central funding have been passed
:43:09. > :43:17.down the line. The cuts will keep coming. A new report by experts ones
:43:18. > :43:23.that some are approaching a tipping point, especially in the South West.
:43:24. > :43:28.It could mean a local authority not being able to set a balanced budget,
:43:29. > :43:33.it could mean little failures in several services which mount up to
:43:34. > :43:36.critical levels, if you like. It could be the inability to deliver
:43:37. > :43:42.statutory services, which could be catastrophic. Eric Pickles will not
:43:43. > :43:48.be swayed. The Tory big hit ended his visit in Chippenham, helping to
:43:49. > :43:56.launch a campaign to cut parking charges levied by his fellow
:43:57. > :44:07.conservatives on the council. Tony Lake is one of the most the
:44:08. > :44:11.zebras `` vociferous protesters We don't disagree with the spending
:44:12. > :44:14.cuts, we understand the need to get the spending deficit under control.
:44:15. > :44:25.I think a lot of good things come out from them. Cut to the chase
:44:26. > :44:31.What is your complaint? Are cut `` our complaint is they are now
:44:32. > :44:38.talking about late February go before we even know what the cap is.
:44:39. > :44:44.So you want to know if the cap is 2% and then you will raise your tax by
:44:45. > :44:49.1.9%? Not at all. We have not done that in the past. We haven't decided
:44:50. > :44:53.what were going to do. We have a spending gap left on a budget of
:44:54. > :45:05.about 1.5 million. We've already identified the banks `` the best
:45:06. > :45:12.part of 17% of that. You used to work in the love `` the local
:45:13. > :45:18.government and then you were a minister. Why is local government
:45:19. > :45:24.taking the hit these days? The local government spends about ?120 billion
:45:25. > :45:27.a year, a quarter of all government spending. So when our cuts across
:45:28. > :45:34.all areas, it's not surprising local government has taken a hit as well.
:45:35. > :45:45.The cuts mean spending power will be be juiced on average by 2.9%. It's a
:45:46. > :46:00.1.8% cut, a relatively small cut to find, for Tony. Our calculation on
:46:01. > :46:07.the spending gap, the lack of government funding, it's more like
:46:08. > :46:11.9%. This isn't about reserves. That is nonsense. We get this from Eric
:46:12. > :46:16.every few weeks saying the council have massive reserves. We have two
:46:17. > :46:21.types of reserves. Earmarked reserves which we cannot use and a
:46:22. > :46:24.small amount of revenue non`earmarked which any sensibly run
:46:25. > :46:31.business would have in case it gets hit. The one thing I will accept is
:46:32. > :46:35.it is very difficult for local government. But what we've seen in
:46:36. > :46:38.recent years is local govern working much more efficiently and
:46:39. > :46:41.effectively, working with each other, combining back office space
:46:42. > :46:45.and so on, getting more of the council tax they are entitled to.
:46:46. > :46:50.That pressure has made a real difference. Polls show that
:46:51. > :46:56.confidence in public government has gone up the last years. But there is
:46:57. > :47:06.money in reserves, there is more that they could get from council
:47:07. > :47:11.tax. Do you think local governments should do anything other than freeze
:47:12. > :47:15.the council tax? I think freezing it is the right thing to do because at
:47:16. > :47:19.the end of the day we need to make it easier for people to live their
:47:20. > :47:24.lives. The cost of living is all part of this. And it is critical to
:47:25. > :47:28.encourage councils to become even more efficient at delivering
:47:29. > :47:31.services. But you are making the council take the cuts and the blame
:47:32. > :47:37.on Westminster does not make the cuts up there. Yes, we do. There are
:47:38. > :47:44.certain areas we have not cut at all, like the NHS. Let's get back to
:47:45. > :47:52.the referendum. As I understand it, councillors want to pick up the rate
:47:53. > :47:57.by a certain amount that means they have two have a referendum. Why have
:47:58. > :48:04.the parliament not told them what the cap will be? We are consulting
:48:05. > :48:07.on this. Eric Pickles made clear that the announcement will be made
:48:08. > :48:11.in the very near future. Most councils are already in a position
:48:12. > :48:16.where they've done most of the copulation. They can do most of the
:48:17. > :48:19.work and as Tony said there is a small bet that they're trying to
:48:20. > :48:24.sort out. I understand the uncertainty, but we're getting on as
:48:25. > :48:33.quickly as possible. On the question of the freeze band, let's take an
:48:34. > :48:39.example. Our band D is about ?1 00. In another council, it is ?1300
:48:40. > :48:44.That is because you've frozen the rate in the past when you didn't
:48:45. > :48:51.have too. Yes, we have deliberately kept it down. But a 1% freeze grant
:48:52. > :48:59.to that counsel you as the ?130 Bandy puts them even further away.
:49:00. > :49:02.Slightly difficult to do the maths on a Sunday morning, but thank you
:49:03. > :49:06.for coming in. Now, it might shock you to learn
:49:07. > :49:12.that one of our studio guests spends his working week with being members
:49:13. > :49:18.of his party. But we're told Don Foster never inflict any actual
:49:19. > :49:27.pain. He is a government whip and years in charge of encouraging MPs
:49:28. > :49:33.to toe the party line. It may not look like the wild West,
:49:34. > :49:37.but listen carefully and you may hear the distant crack of a whip
:49:38. > :49:43.around Westminster. It could be the parliamentary whips at work, getting
:49:44. > :49:49.backbenchers into line. Three of them now come from the west, and
:49:50. > :49:55.this is their story. Among those keeping the conservative cowboys in
:49:56. > :50:00.order, our assistant whips Claire and John. The high Sheriff of Lib
:50:01. > :50:06.Dem discipline and government Deputy Chief Whip is now Don Foster. From
:50:07. > :50:12.the whips office, you must make sure his MPs turn up to vote and vote the
:50:13. > :50:15.way his party wants. Gentle persuasion is the preferred
:50:16. > :50:21.technique, but he admits his is a business of carrot and stick. We
:50:22. > :50:25.could stop people being on the whip, which means you don't get any
:50:26. > :50:29.of the information to sort your life out. We could make things difficult
:50:30. > :50:35.in terms of the sort of office accommodation that you want and
:50:36. > :50:39.possibly do nasty things in terms of cutting off party funding if
:50:40. > :50:43.anything is going to your constituency. But the Lib Dems are
:50:44. > :50:49.not flush with dosh so that is unlikely. It is the power of
:50:50. > :50:53.persuasion. Each whip has a flock of around two dozen MPs. If it becomes
:50:54. > :50:57.clear one of your sheep might be tempted to stray, you might bring
:50:58. > :51:02.them to a posh restaurant like this one to administer some gentle but
:51:03. > :51:09.well lubricated arm`twisting. I think I will have the lamb. I use
:51:10. > :51:15.suggesting MPs can be persuaded by such fripperies? Are you denying
:51:16. > :51:20.that perks don't come into it? MPs are just as fallible as anyone
:51:21. > :51:25.else. So, yes, it can make a difference to some people, and
:51:26. > :51:30.others not. At the end of the day, people are trying to stick up for
:51:31. > :51:34.the local patch. That is what gets them out of bed in the morning and
:51:35. > :51:39.it is the thing which will get them re`elected or not. That is a
:51:40. > :51:43.powerful motivator. That is the dilemma for all MPs, the crunch
:51:44. > :51:48.vote. To stay with the party on his ticket they were elected, all
:51:49. > :51:52.rebel, and face the consequences. When I was saying I'm afraid I'm
:51:53. > :51:57.going to rebel on Lords reform, it was suggested to me that I would
:51:58. > :52:02.lose my big society ambassador role. And my response was, well, I'm
:52:03. > :52:05.afraid I believe in it. You can t stop me believing in community
:52:06. > :52:16.spirit, so do what you want with the titles. Television dramas like house
:52:17. > :52:20.of cards gave whips a bad portrayal as masters of the dark arts. That
:52:21. > :52:25.reputation has been difficult to shake, especially among those who
:52:26. > :52:31.cannot see why that country has to pay for what is essentially a
:52:32. > :52:38.political office. The stereotype is actually accurate. They know all the
:52:39. > :52:43.secrets of the MPs. The whips have something called a dirt book with
:52:44. > :52:49.all the information about whether an MP has a love life, a gambling
:52:50. > :52:52.habit, drinks too much, maybe is overdrawn and therefore needs a bit
:52:53. > :52:57.of extra money, so maybe wants to get onto a certain select committee.
:52:58. > :53:01.All these things come into play and are all part of the leveraged, the
:53:02. > :53:09.machinery, of influence and pressure that is brought to bear. If you
:53:10. > :53:12.believe the whips in this place the business of whipping is no longer
:53:13. > :53:17.than nasty, bullying backbiting processing might have been. They
:53:18. > :53:22.insist that they need the law enforcers to whip the parties into
:53:23. > :53:26.some sort of meaningful shape remains as acute as ever, but the
:53:27. > :53:33.many outside these walls, the practice of whipping remains one of
:53:34. > :53:40.the Sadie at `` shakiest in the saloon bar of British politics.
:53:41. > :53:44.Joining us is Dawn Parry who used to be a conservative and stood in
:53:45. > :53:49.Newport at the last election in Wales. Now, she says she is fed up
:53:50. > :53:55.of party politics and will run as an independent in Bristol West last
:53:56. > :54:09.time. What is wrong with being mated to tether party line? `` being made
:54:10. > :54:12.to toe the party line? Instead of representing the views of those
:54:13. > :54:16.individuals who perhaps elected you to parliament, you are forced into a
:54:17. > :54:40.situation whereby you have to vote with the party and toe the line The
:54:41. > :54:43.problem of the Dorna is if she does get elected as an independent, she
:54:44. > :54:47.will realise she is a large number of decisions to make every single
:54:48. > :54:51.day and there will not be the opportunity to go back and consult
:54:52. > :54:55.your electorate on all of those issues. Therefore what happens in
:54:56. > :54:59.political parties ` unsure it's the same as in the Conservatives ` we
:55:00. > :55:02.get together and discuss the issues and agree collectively what we think
:55:03. > :55:14.the line should be. By having a clear line from a political party,
:55:15. > :55:17.the government then know what sort of things we care about and the
:55:18. > :55:19.values we have. Is it right that Charlotte should have been
:55:20. > :55:21.threatened with losing her job as a big society spokesperson? I'm not
:55:22. > :55:24.going to comment on the techniques used by other whips. Let me make it
:55:25. > :55:30.clear. The days of thumb screws are long gone, quite rightly. Parliament
:55:31. > :55:35.now decides who will be members of select committees and who will chair
:55:36. > :55:38.them, what the debates will be. So a lot of those tools have disappeared
:55:39. > :55:42.and we have to do it by getting everyone together and getting those
:55:43. > :55:51.policies right in the first place. You gladly rebelled at all, have
:55:52. > :55:54.you? Well, I tend to agree with the overall agenda of the government. I
:55:55. > :55:58.think the coalition is doing the right things, getting the deficit
:55:59. > :56:03.down and having a long`term plan to solve the problems we were left with
:56:04. > :56:10.by the last Labour government. And also there are lots of ways you can
:56:11. > :56:17.influence the government. For instance, writing reports,
:56:18. > :56:23.contributing to select committees. I would like to come back on something
:56:24. > :56:27.that Don said which was about how important it is collectively that
:56:28. > :56:31.elected members vote a certain way. Let's be honest. When a bill comes
:56:32. > :56:36.forward and when people have to come up with a yes or no, surely 650
:56:37. > :56:42.intelligent individuals who then elected by the people can make their
:56:43. > :56:46.own decisions. People vote for the party, not the candidate. They vote
:56:47. > :56:53.for Mr Cameron or Mr Gleick, they don't really vote for the Lib Dem
:56:54. > :56:58.candidate. Well, let's talk about the people then. Because in the old
:56:59. > :57:06.days people certainly did. There was a bat social difference. But this is
:57:07. > :57:09.a television age now. Yes, but the way people move forward and how they
:57:10. > :57:14.want to vote has changed enormously to the point where now a very small
:57:15. > :57:18.number of people vote in elections and we have governments in power
:57:19. > :57:22.would just a quarter of the populace. We have to leave it there.
:57:23. > :57:28.Is it worth an extra ?41,000 a year, that job? I don't get anything like
:57:29. > :57:32.that. I look forward to receiving my pager. I took a pay cheque from
:57:33. > :57:39.being government minister to becoming a government Chief Whip.
:57:40. > :57:43.You get ?41,000 more than a backbencher. I categorically do not
:57:44. > :57:47.even get half that amount extra If you can tell me where the money is,
:57:48. > :57:57.I look forward to receiving it and I will give it to a good cause.
:57:58. > :58:07.41,000? ! Well, we'll check it. Now, it's been another busy week. Here's
:58:08. > :58:11.a brief reminder 60 seconds. The Mayor of Bristol flushed away
:58:12. > :58:16.his plans to close all but one of the city 's toilets. George Ferguson
:58:17. > :58:20.said a rosier financial outlook in the toilets could stay. In bat,
:58:21. > :58:24.parents and children demonstrated ever proposed cuts to children's
:58:25. > :58:28.centres. Ruling Lib Dems insist no centres
:58:29. > :58:31.will be closed but some may be handed over to other organisations
:58:32. > :58:36.to run. Somerset paid its respect to a
:58:37. > :58:42.former MP who died aged 90. He served at the battle and was awarded
:58:43. > :58:47.a military Cross for his role as a tank commander.
:58:48. > :58:51.The EU awarded West Country beef and Lamb protected status. The
:58:52. > :58:57.recognition means our meat now ranks alongside other protected food like
:58:58. > :58:59.Stilton cheese and Cornish pasties. And a Somerset MPs sent tongues
:59:00. > :59:03.wagging again. He dismissed spending a quarter of
:59:04. > :59:12.?1 million on portrait of politicians as mere chicken feed.
:59:13. > :59:16.Do you think taxpayers should really be asked to pay for portrait of the
:59:17. > :59:26.political classes? I've decided to save you a little bit and I've come
:59:27. > :59:33.up with these. Perfect. I've got more hair than I expected. A serious
:59:34. > :59:39.point. In times of austerity is it really wise to be paying for these
:59:40. > :59:44.paintings? The sums of these money, 2000 up to 10,000, that is not
:59:45. > :59:48.chicken feed by anybody's standards. But I do think it is right that we
:59:49. > :59:58.have a record over the years of what happens. I do agree. The old part of
:59:59. > :00:02.parliament is full of Victorian politicians and I think we should
:00:03. > :00:06.have a reflection of the people in there now. Will the BBC donor those
:00:07. > :00:16.to Parliament so that we save money? You can have them. Now thought, that
:00:17. > :00:20.is it. You can keep up to speed with this programme on Twitter. For now,
:00:21. > :00:32.back to London. houses being built by the mayor
:00:33. > :00:37.Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last
:00:38. > :00:41.night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny
:00:42. > :00:44.Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving
:00:45. > :00:59.competition show, here she is in action.
:01:00. > :01:16.APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to
:01:17. > :01:22.campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much
:01:23. > :01:34.rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and
:01:35. > :01:37.control it. That looked painful Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted
:01:38. > :01:40.off the show last night but what about the verdict that really
:01:41. > :01:43.matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael
:01:44. > :01:50.Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out
:01:51. > :01:54.of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a
:01:55. > :02:01.local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good
:02:02. > :02:04.sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your
:02:05. > :02:09.swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the
:02:10. > :02:14.spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.
:02:15. > :02:20.Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in
:02:21. > :02:27.asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a
:02:28. > :02:34.goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should
:02:35. > :02:37.she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these
:02:38. > :02:43.problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising
:02:44. > :02:50.money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about
:02:51. > :02:56.it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your
:02:57. > :03:04.programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare
:03:05. > :03:12.time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for
:03:13. > :03:15.Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we
:03:16. > :03:18.going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury
:03:19. > :03:26.does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth
:03:27. > :03:31.has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in
:03:32. > :03:36.a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There
:03:37. > :03:41.are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My
:03:42. > :03:46.job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure
:03:47. > :03:49.that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more
:03:50. > :03:54.broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal
:03:55. > :03:59.seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats
:04:00. > :04:09.everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince
:04:10. > :04:13.Cable and I have been working together for the issues that
:04:14. > :04:18.Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have
:04:19. > :04:23.the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is
:04:24. > :04:27.coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have
:04:28. > :04:35.been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers
:04:36. > :04:39.for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is
:04:40. > :04:42.properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this
:04:43. > :04:50.challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul
:04:51. > :04:54.faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay
:04:55. > :05:00.you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC
:05:01. > :05:07.covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.
:05:08. > :05:11.She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do
:05:12. > :05:17.this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for
:05:18. > :05:23.Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not
:05:24. > :05:26.have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we
:05:27. > :05:32.have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?
:05:33. > :05:39.Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the
:05:40. > :05:41.north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.
:05:42. > :05:44.The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this
:05:45. > :05:47.morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual
:05:48. > :05:49.competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour
:05:50. > :05:53.government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by
:05:54. > :05:58.the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,
:05:59. > :06:01.setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can
:06:02. > :06:07.ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to
:06:08. > :06:09.see Labour going into the next election as the party of
:06:10. > :06:15.competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed
:06:16. > :06:19.working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with
:06:20. > :06:23.those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I
:06:24. > :06:29.thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the
:06:30. > :06:34.party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of
:06:35. > :06:37.these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy
:06:38. > :06:43.sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about
:06:44. > :06:47.his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,
:06:48. > :06:51.the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is
:06:52. > :06:55.the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with
:06:56. > :07:01.the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder
:07:02. > :07:07.competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed
:07:08. > :07:12.Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be
:07:13. > :07:18.the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state
:07:19. > :07:22.intervention? -- broken markets Exactly, and it is state
:07:23. > :07:30.intervention that does not work There is a proud tradition in
:07:31. > :07:34.government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a
:07:35. > :07:37.century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and
:07:38. > :07:44.obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is
:07:45. > :07:48.entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free
:07:49. > :07:53.current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western
:07:54. > :07:56.countries. In the energy sector our bills are not outlandish they high.
:07:57. > :08:03.It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable He
:08:04. > :08:08.has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these
:08:09. > :08:13.monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention but
:08:14. > :08:18.about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual
:08:19. > :08:21.Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.
:08:22. > :08:27.He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of
:08:28. > :08:35.the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting
:08:36. > :08:40.debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,
:08:41. > :08:50.the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are
:08:51. > :08:54.seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies
:08:55. > :08:59.competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller
:09:00. > :09:04.companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six
:09:05. > :09:09.energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the
:09:10. > :09:15.Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign
:09:16. > :09:19.policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme
:09:20. > :09:23.candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that
:09:24. > :09:32.may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is
:09:33. > :09:39.these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the
:09:40. > :09:45.Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went
:09:46. > :09:50.in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a
:09:51. > :09:56.repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The
:09:57. > :10:01.instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not
:10:02. > :10:08.to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not
:10:09. > :10:12.ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall
:10:13. > :10:18.be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it It
:10:19. > :10:24.is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay
:10:25. > :10:28.marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded
:10:29. > :10:33.retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think
:10:34. > :10:38.he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots
:10:39. > :10:45.of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting
:10:46. > :10:49.with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several
:10:50. > :10:55.layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is
:10:56. > :11:00.saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called
:11:01. > :11:05.the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the
:11:06. > :11:15.party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is
:11:16. > :11:21.left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP
:11:22. > :11:27.because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it
:11:28. > :11:32.turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their
:11:33. > :11:36.mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a
:11:37. > :11:40.protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people
:11:41. > :11:46.saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.
:11:47. > :11:50.But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.
:11:51. > :11:58.I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.
:11:59. > :12:04.There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a
:12:05. > :12:08.new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest
:12:09. > :12:13.party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in
:12:14. > :12:18.European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe
:12:19. > :12:23.and give people a proper choice the first referendum in over 40 years.
:12:24. > :12:28.Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad
:12:29. > :12:33.to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably
:12:34. > :12:36.a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives
:12:37. > :12:42.will understand that this is the only party that can secure European
:12:43. > :12:46.reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever
:12:47. > :12:52.happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost
:12:53. > :12:56.run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party
:12:57. > :13:01.whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the
:13:02. > :13:07.common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns
:13:08. > :13:14.up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at
:13:15. > :13:20.the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,
:13:21. > :13:28.they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a
:13:29. > :13:32.legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily
:13:33. > :13:37.Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again
:13:38. > :13:39.next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.