:00:36. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:45. > :00:49.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:50. > :00:53.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:54. > :00:56.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:57. > :00:59.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:00. > :01:03.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:04. > :01:06.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:07. > :01:11.across much of the UK, but what s the outlook according to this man?
:01:12. > :01:22.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party
:01:23. > :01:39.Here the Euro MP who really showed up in
:01:40. > :01:43.And with me - as always - the political panel so fresh-faced,
:01:44. > :01:46.entertaining and downright popular they make Justin Bieber look like a
:01:47. > :01:49.boring old has-been just desperate to get your attention. Nick Watt,
:01:50. > :01:52.Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and they'll be tweeting quicker than a
:01:53. > :02:09.yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami Beach. Being political nerds, they
:02:10. > :02:13.have no idea what I'm talking about. Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all
:02:14. > :02:16.yesterday. We kinda thought Labour would head for the election with a
:02:17. > :02:20.return to the 50p top rate of tax. But we didn't think he'd do it now.
:02:21. > :02:24.He did! The polls say it's popular, Labour activists now have a spring
:02:25. > :02:27.in their step. The Tories say it's a return to the bad old days of the
:02:28. > :02:29.'70s, and bosses now think Labour is anti-business. Here's the Shadow
:02:30. > :02:32.Chancellor speaking earlier this morning. I was part of a Government
:02:33. > :02:35.which did very many things to open up markets, to make the Bank of
:02:36. > :02:37.England independent, to work closely with business, but the reality is we
:02:38. > :02:39.are in very difficult circumstances and because if I'm honest you,
:02:40. > :02:43.George Osborne's failure in the last few years, those difficult
:02:44. > :02:53.circumstances will last into the next Parliament. Business people
:02:54. > :02:59.have said to me they want to get the deficit down, of course they do But
:03:00. > :03:02.to cut the top rate... It is foolish and feeds resentment I want to do
:03:03. > :03:07.the opposite and say look, pro-business, pro investment, pro
:03:08. > :03:11.market, but pro fairness. Let's get this deficit down in a fairway and
:03:12. > :03:17.make the reforms to make our economy work for the long term. What are the
:03:18. > :03:24.political implications of Labour now in favour of a 50%, in practise 352%
:03:25. > :03:27.top rate of tax? One of the political implications I don't think
:03:28. > :03:31.exist is that they'll win new voters. I'm not sure many people out
:03:32. > :03:36.there would think, I would love to vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not
:03:37. > :03:42.sure if he wants to tax rich people enough. It will con Dale their
:03:43. > :03:50.existing vote but I don't think it is the kind of, in the 1990s we
:03:51. > :03:53.talked about triangulation, moving beyond your core vote, I don't think
:03:54. > :03:57.it is a policy like that. If there has been a policy like that this
:03:58. > :04:00.year, this month, it has been the Tories' move on minimum wage. I
:04:01. > :04:05.thought Labour would come back with their own version, a centre-right
:04:06. > :04:10.policy, and instead they have done this. I think we talk about the 35%
:04:11. > :04:16.strategy that Labour supposed will have, I think it is a policy in that
:04:17. > :04:23.direction rather than the thing Tony Blair or Gordon Brown would have
:04:24. > :04:29.done. Where he was not clear is on how much it would raise. We know the
:04:30. > :04:34.sum in the grand scheme of things isn't much, the bedroom tax was
:04:35. > :04:41.about sending a message. What we are going to see is George Osborne and
:04:42. > :04:47.Ed Balls lock as they try to push the other one into saying things
:04:48. > :04:55.that are unpopular. The Tories, ?150,000 a year, that's exactly
:04:56. > :05:00.where Ed Balls want them to be. All three main parties have roughly the
:05:01. > :05:04.same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next
:05:05. > :05:09.Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said
:05:10. > :05:14.how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going
:05:15. > :05:18.to restore this 50 persons rate The contribution of that will be
:05:19. > :05:23.deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values.
:05:24. > :05:27.Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where
:05:28. > :05:30.the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the
:05:31. > :05:36.last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election
:05:37. > :05:39.if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and
:05:40. > :05:43.that's the question looking difficult for them this morning
:05:44. > :05:49.Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the
:05:50. > :05:53.most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy
:05:54. > :05:58.mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a
:05:59. > :06:04.Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious
:06:05. > :06:08.than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the
:06:09. > :06:13.run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in
:06:14. > :06:18.the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a
:06:19. > :06:24.guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of
:06:25. > :06:29.ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business
:06:30. > :06:34.Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see
:06:35. > :06:37.businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on
:06:38. > :06:42.that one. There's a difference on that. Mind you, they were squealing
:06:43. > :06:46.this morning from Davos. They probably had hangovers as well. The
:06:47. > :06:51.other thing they would say is this is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p
:06:52. > :06:55.is the optimal rate forever, it what go eventually. Isn't that what
:06:56. > :07:00.politicians said when income tax was introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour
:07:01. > :07:05.regarded 40 persons as the rate where it would stay.
:07:06. > :07:10.It's been a bad week for the Lib Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one
:07:11. > :07:13.of the worst weeks yet for Nick Clegg and his party in recent
:07:14. > :07:16.memory, as they've gone from talking confidently about their role in
:07:17. > :07:18.Government to facing a storm of criticism over claims of
:07:19. > :07:22.inappropriate sexual behaviour by a Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a
:07:23. > :07:26.Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's Giles with the story of the week. A
:07:27. > :07:32.challenge to Nick Clegg's authority as he face as growing row over the
:07:33. > :07:36.Liberal Democrat... I want everyone to be treated with respect by the
:07:37. > :07:42.Liberal Democrats. We are expecting him to show moral leadership on our
:07:43. > :07:48.behalf. A good man has been publicly destroyed by the media with the
:07:49. > :07:52.apparent support of Nick Clegg. I would like Nick Clegg to show
:07:53. > :07:59.leadership and say, this has got to stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on
:08:00. > :08:05.Monday morning he knew he was in trouble, staring down the barrel of
:08:06. > :08:10.a stand justify with Lord Rennard over allegations that the peer had
:08:11. > :08:14.inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard thought he was
:08:15. > :08:19.cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I said if he doesn't apologise, he
:08:20. > :08:24.should withdraw from the House of Lords. If he does that today, what
:08:25. > :08:31.do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I think no apology, no whip. 2014 was
:08:32. > :08:36.starting badly for the Liberal Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to
:08:37. > :08:41.apologise, saying you can't say sorry for something you haven't
:08:42. > :08:45.done. The and he was leaning towards legal action. Butch us friends
:08:46. > :08:49.better defending Pym and publicly. This is a good, decent man, who has
:08:50. > :08:54.been punished by the party, with the leadership of the party that seems
:08:55. > :09:00.to be showing scant regard for due process. But his accusers felt very
:09:01. > :09:04.differently. It is untenable for the Lib Dems to have a credible voice on
:09:05. > :09:09.qualities and women's issues in the future if Lord Rennard was allowed
:09:10. > :09:15.to be back on the Lib Dem benches in the House of Lords. Therein lay the
:09:16. > :09:19.problem that exposed the weaknesses of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's
:09:20. > :09:26.internal structures have all the simplicity of a circuit diagram for
:09:27. > :09:31.a supercomputer, exposing the complexity of who runs the Liberal
:09:32. > :09:35.Democrats? The simple question that arose of that was can the leader of
:09:36. > :09:40.the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer? The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem
:09:41. > :09:47.whips in the Lords could do it but if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed,
:09:48. > :09:50.they could overrule it. Some long-stand ng friends of roar
:09:51. > :09:54.Rennard think he is either the innocent victim of a media
:09:55. > :09:59.witch-hunt or at the least due process has been ridden over rough
:10:00. > :10:04.shot by the leadership. Nobody ever did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't
:10:05. > :10:08.turn up to the Lords, will citing ill health. But issued a statement
:10:09. > :10:12.that ruled out an apology. He refused to do so and refused to
:10:13. > :10:16.comply with the outcome of that report, so there was no alternative
:10:17. > :10:20.but for the party to suspend his membership today. On Wednesday Nick
:10:21. > :10:24.Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a crunch decision, but to discuss the
:10:25. > :10:27.extraordinary prospect of legal action against the party by the man
:10:28. > :10:32.long credited with building its success. The situation was making
:10:33. > :10:36.the party look like a joke. One Tory MP said to one of my colleagues this
:10:37. > :10:39.morning, the funny thing about the Liberal Democrats, you managed to
:10:40. > :10:43.create a whole sex scandal without any sex. And we can laugh at
:10:44. > :10:48.ourselves but actually it is rather serious. And it got more serious,
:10:49. > :10:53.when an MP who had resigned the Lib Dem whip last year was expanded from
:10:54. > :10:57.the party over a report into allegations of serious and unwelcome
:10:58. > :11:01.sexual behaviour towards a constituent. All of this leaves the
:11:02. > :11:06.Lib Dems desperately wishing these sagas had been dealt with long ago
:11:07. > :11:12.and would now go away. Nick Clegg ended the week still party leader.
:11:13. > :11:19.Lord Rennard, once one of their most powerful players, ended the week,
:11:20. > :11:22.for now, no longer even in it. Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous
:11:23. > :11:28.week. Now, as you doubtless already know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will
:11:29. > :11:33.vote to choose a new deputy leader. You didn't know that? You do now.
:11:34. > :11:36.The job of Nick Clegg's number two is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem
:11:37. > :11:40.voice, untainted by the demands of coalition Government. At this point
:11:41. > :11:43.in the show we had expected to speak to all three candidates for the
:11:44. > :11:51.post, held in recent years by party veterans like Vince Cable and Simon
:11:52. > :11:54.Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant week for the party, they
:11:55. > :12:00.might have something to say. And here they are. Well that's their
:12:01. > :12:04.pictures. For various reasons, all three are now unavailable. Malcolm
:12:05. > :12:07.Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His office said he had a
:12:08. > :12:10."family commitment". Gordon Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was
:12:11. > :12:14.booked to appear but then told us, "I was at an event last night with
:12:15. > :12:20.Lorely Burt" - she's one of the candidates - "and she told me it was
:12:21. > :12:24.off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen by many as the red hot favourite,
:12:25. > :12:27.told us: "Because of the Rennard thing we don't want to put ourselves
:12:28. > :12:39.in a position where we have to answer difficult questions." How
:12:40. > :12:43.refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad politically is all this for the Lib
:12:44. > :12:46.Dems? What I think is the tragic irony of the Lib Dems is they've
:12:47. > :12:51.been revealed as being too democratic. In the same way that
:12:52. > :12:56.their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he
:12:57. > :13:02.signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various
:13:03. > :13:14.sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is
:13:15. > :13:20.Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week
:13:21. > :13:25.he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public
:13:26. > :13:31.domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative
:13:32. > :13:35.Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority
:13:36. > :13:39.Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that
:13:40. > :13:44.reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are
:13:45. > :13:47.self obsessed turn them off. The third party, if they carry on like
:13:48. > :13:51.this, they'll be the fifth party in the European elections, so they have
:13:52. > :13:56.got to draw a line under this. They do that, if they do, through
:13:57. > :14:01.mediation. As I understand it, Chris Rennard,s who has go devoted his
:14:02. > :14:04.entire life to the Liberal Democrats, and previously the
:14:05. > :14:08.Liberal Party, is keen to draw a line under this. He is up for
:14:09. > :14:12.mediation but he needs to know that the women that he has clearly
:14:13. > :14:16.invaded their personal space, that there wouldn't be a possible legal a
:14:17. > :14:20.action from them. The it is very difficult to see how you could
:14:21. > :14:24.resolve that. Except he is threatening through his friends
:14:25. > :14:29.these famous friends, to spill all the beans about all the party's sex
:14:30. > :14:33.secrets. Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems, this haunts them through
:14:34. > :14:36.to the European elections, where they'll get thumped in the European
:14:37. > :14:40.elections? They'll get destroyed in the European elections, which keeps
:14:41. > :14:45.it salient as a story over the summer. And it has implications for
:14:46. > :14:49.Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a good job until now, perhaps better
:14:50. > :14:53.than David Cameron, of exercising authority over his party. He had a
:14:54. > :14:57.good conference in September. Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems
:14:58. > :15:02.have looked like a party without a leader or a leadership structure.
:15:03. > :15:06.Part of that is down to the chaotic or Byzantine organisational
:15:07. > :15:10.structure of the party. Part of it is Nick Clegg's failure to assert
:15:11. > :15:18.himself and impose himself over events. Is it Byzantine or
:15:19. > :15:29.Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You don't get these words on the Today
:15:30. > :15:32.programme. The cost of living has been back on the agenda this week as
:15:33. > :15:36.Labour and the Tories argue over whether the value of money in your
:15:37. > :15:39.pocket is going up or down. Well there's one cost which has been
:15:40. > :15:43.racing ahead of inflation and that's the amount you have to pay to travel
:15:44. > :15:45.by train, by bus and by air. Rail commuters have been hard hit over
:15:46. > :15:49.the last four years, with the cost of the average season ticket going
:15:50. > :15:55.up by 18% since January 2010, while wages have gone up by just 3.6% over
:15:56. > :16:01.the same period. It means some rail users are paying high prices with
:16:02. > :16:06.commuters from Kent shelling out more than ?5,000 per year from the
:16:07. > :16:11.beginning of this month just to get to work in London. It doesn't
:16:12. > :16:16.compare well with our European counterparts. In the UK the average
:16:17. > :16:25.rail user spends 14% of their average income on trains. It is just
:16:26. > :16:30.1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like season tickets went up 3.1% at the
:16:31. > :16:34.beginning of this month, and with ministers keen to make passengers
:16:35. > :16:37.fought more of the bills, there are more fare rises coming down the
:16:38. > :16:51.track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins me now for the Sunday Interview
:16:52. > :16:55.Welcome. You claim to be in the party of hard-working people, so why
:16:56. > :16:59.is it that since you came to power rail commuters have seen the cost of
:17:00. > :17:08.their average season ticket going up in money terms by over 18% while
:17:09. > :17:14.their pay has gone up in money terms by less than four? I would point out
:17:15. > :17:20.that this is the first year in ten years that we have not had an above
:17:21. > :17:25.inflation increase on fares. The Government accepts we have got to do
:17:26. > :17:33.as much as we can to help the passengers. A big inflation increase
:17:34. > :17:40.since 2010. This is the first year in ten years that it has not been
:17:41. > :17:45.above RPI, but we are also investing huge amounts of money into the
:17:46. > :17:50.railways, building new trains for the East Coast Main Line and the
:17:51. > :17:57.great Western. We are spending 500 million at Birmingham station, this
:17:58. > :18:00.is all increasing capacity, so we are seeing investments. Over the
:18:01. > :18:10.next five years Network Rail will invest over ?38 billion in the
:18:11. > :18:15.network structure. We also have an expensive railway and it is ordinary
:18:16. > :18:21.people paying for it. A season ticket from Woking in Surrey,
:18:22. > :18:27.commuter belt land in London, let's look at the figures. This is a
:18:28. > :18:36.distance of over 25 miles, it cost over ?3000 per year. We have picked
:18:37. > :18:45.similar distances to international cities.
:18:46. > :18:53.The British commuter is being ripped off. The British commuter is seeing
:18:54. > :18:58.record levels of investment in our railways. The investment has to be
:18:59. > :19:02.paid for. We are investing huge amounts of money and I don't know
:19:03. > :19:19.whether the figures you have got here... I'm sure they are likewise,
:19:20. > :19:28.as you have managed to do... White -- ten times more than the Italian
:19:29. > :19:32.equivalent. We have seen transformational changes in our
:19:33. > :19:37.railway services and we need to carry on investing. We were paying
:19:38. > :19:42.these prices even before you started investing. We have always paid a lot
:19:43. > :19:51.more to commute in this country than our European equivalents. I'm not
:19:52. > :19:57.quite sure I want to take on Italy is a great example. You would if you
:19:58. > :20:03.were a commuter. You is a great example. You would if you
:20:04. > :20:09.the other rates of taxation has to be paid as well. Isn't it the case
:20:10. > :20:13.they are making profits out of these figures and using them to subsidise
:20:14. > :20:22.cheaper fares back in their homeland? The overall profit margin
:20:23. > :20:25.train companies make is 3%, a reasonable amount, and we have seen
:20:26. > :20:30.a revolution as far as the railway industry is concerned.
:20:31. > :20:35.a revolution as far as the railway 20 years we have seen passenger
:20:36. > :20:39.journeys going from 750 million to 1.5 billion. That is a massive
:20:40. > :20:44.revolution in rail. Let me look 1.5 billion. That is a massive
:20:45. > :20:45.spokesperson for the German government, the Ministry of
:20:46. > :21:02.transport. They are charging huge fares in
:21:03. > :21:08.Britain to take that money back to subsidise fares in Germany. What do
:21:09. > :21:12.you say to that? We are seeing British companies winning contracts
:21:13. > :21:17.in Germany. The National Express are winning contracts to the railways.
:21:18. > :21:22.What about the ordinary commuter? They are paying through the nose so
:21:23. > :21:28.German commuters can travel more cheaply. We are still subsidising
:21:29. > :21:32.the railways in this country, but overall we want to reduce the
:21:33. > :21:39.subsidy we are giving. We are still seeing growth in our railways and I
:21:40. > :21:47.want to see more people using them. Why do you increase rail fares at
:21:48. > :21:52.the higher RPI measure than the lower CPI measurement? That is what
:21:53. > :21:56.has always been done, and we have stopped. This is the first time in
:21:57. > :22:07.ten years that we have not raised the rail figures above RPI. You
:22:08. > :22:12.still link fares to RPI. You use the lower CPI figure when it suits you,
:22:13. > :22:17.to keep pension payments down for example, but the higher one when it
:22:18. > :22:21.comes to increasing rail fares. We are still putting a huge subsidy
:22:22. > :22:26.into the rail industry, there is still a huge amount of money going
:22:27. > :22:32.from the taxpayer to support the rail industry. I am not asking you
:22:33. > :22:40.about that, I am asking you why you link the figures to the higher RPI
:22:41. > :22:46.vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all
:22:47. > :22:51.the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main
:22:52. > :22:55.Line and the great Western, ?3. billion of investment, new rolling
:22:56. > :22:59.stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a
:23:00. > :23:13.question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger.
:23:14. > :23:16.You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we
:23:17. > :23:26.have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are
:23:27. > :23:33.the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you?
:23:34. > :23:47.We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are
:23:48. > :23:51.setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them
:23:52. > :23:57.and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for
:23:58. > :24:04.the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don t
:24:05. > :24:10.accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is
:24:11. > :24:17.the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus
:24:18. > :24:24.rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising,
:24:25. > :24:30.4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has
:24:31. > :24:36.been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses
:24:37. > :24:40.on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with
:24:41. > :24:54.Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in
:24:55. > :25:00.new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working
:25:01. > :25:07.families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work
:25:08. > :25:10.early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their
:25:11. > :25:17.buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if
:25:18. > :25:22.they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in
:25:23. > :25:31.services, it has to be paid for Why not run the old buses for five more
:25:32. > :25:35.years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern
:25:36. > :25:39.buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support
:25:40. > :25:42.overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully
:25:43. > :25:52.accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of
:25:53. > :25:58.people use buses as well. High-speed two, it has been delayed because 877
:25:59. > :26:05.pages of key evidence from your department were left on a computer
:26:06. > :26:08.memory stick, part of the submission to environmental consultation. Your
:26:09. > :26:16.department's economic case is now widely regarded as a joke, now you
:26:17. > :26:22.do this. Is your department fit for purpose? Yes, and as far as what
:26:23. > :26:25.happened with the memory stick, it is an acceptable and shouldn't have
:26:26. > :26:31.happened, and therefore we have extended the time. There has been an
:26:32. > :26:41.extension in the time for people to make representation, the bill for
:26:42. > :26:54.this goes through Parliament in a different way to a normal bill. It
:26:55. > :26:59.is vital HS2 provides what we want. What I am very pleased about is when
:27:00. > :27:04.the paving bill was passed by Parliament just a few months ago,
:27:05. > :27:10.there was overwhelming support, and I kept reading there was going to be
:27:11. > :27:14.70 people voting against it, in the end 30 people voted against it and
:27:15. > :27:19.there was a good majority in the House of Commons. So can you give a
:27:20. > :27:27.guarantee that this legislation will get onto the statute books? I will
:27:28. > :27:31.do all I can. I cannot tell you the exact Parliamentary time scale. The
:27:32. > :27:39.bill will have started its progress through the House of Commons by
:27:40. > :27:45.2015, and it may well have concluded. The new chairman of HS2
:27:46. > :27:56.said he can bring the cost of the line substantially under the budget,
:27:57. > :28:02.do you agree with that? The figure is ?42 billion with a large
:28:03. > :28:06.contingency, and David Higgins, as chairman of HS2, is looking at the
:28:07. > :28:11.whole cast and seeing if there are ways in which it can be built
:28:12. > :28:16.faster. At the moment across London we are building Crossrail, ?14.
:28:17. > :28:23.billion investment. There was a report last week saying what an
:28:24. > :28:29.excellent job has been done. Crossrail started under Labour.
:28:30. > :28:37.Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in the 1990 party conference. You may
:28:38. > :28:43.get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay people so much, why is the
:28:44. > :28:52.nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on ?600,000? And the new chief
:28:53. > :28:55.executive on ?750,000. These are very big projects and we need to
:28:56. > :29:01.attract the best people become so we are going for the best engineers in
:29:02. > :29:06.the world to engineer this project. It is a large salary, there is no
:29:07. > :29:10.question about it, but I'm rather pleased that engineers rather than
:29:11. > :29:15.bankers can be seen to get big rewards for delivering what will be
:29:16. > :29:19.very important pieces of national infrastructure. I didn't have time
:29:20. > :29:25.to ask you about your passenger duty so perhaps another time. We are
:29:26. > :29:29.about to speak to Nigel Mills and all of these MPs on your side who
:29:30. > :29:34.are rebelling against the Government, how would you handle
:29:35. > :29:39.them? We have got to listen to what our colleagues are talking about and
:29:40. > :29:44.try to respond it. Would you take them for a long walk off a short
:29:45. > :29:57.pier? I'm sure I would have many conversations with them. An
:29:58. > :30:03.immigration bill to tack the immigration into the UK. When limits
:30:04. > :30:09.on migration from Bulgaria and Romania were lifted this year there
:30:10. > :30:12.were warnings of a large influx of migrant workerses from the two new
:30:13. > :30:18.European countries. So far it's been more of a dribble than a flood. Who
:30:19. > :30:22.can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz greeting a handful of arrivals at
:30:23. > :30:27.Luton Airport. But it is early days and it is one of the reasons the
:30:28. > :30:31.Government's introduced a new Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister
:30:32. > :30:37.is facing rebellion from backbenchers who want tougher action
:30:38. > :30:46.on immigration from abroad. Nigel Mills would reimpose restrictions on
:30:47. > :30:53.how many Romanians and Bulgarians can come here. Joining me is Nigel
:30:54. > :30:57.Mills, Conservative MP behind the amendment and Labour MP Diane
:30:58. > :31:05.Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there hasn't been an influx of Romanians
:31:06. > :31:09.and Bulgarians. Why do you want to restore these, kick these
:31:10. > :31:14.transitional controls way forward to 2019? I don't think any of us were
:31:15. > :31:19.expecting a rush on January 1st Andrew. I think we were talking
:31:20. > :31:24.about a range of 250,000 to 350 000 people over five years. That's
:31:25. > :31:29.obviously a large amount of people, especially when you think net
:31:30. > :31:32.migration to the UK was well in excess of the Government's target of
:31:33. > :31:38.tens of thousands last year. The real concern is that it would be
:31:39. > :31:44.ever increasing our population, attracting lots of low-skilled,
:31:45. > :31:48.low-wage people, which keeps our people out of work and wages down.
:31:49. > :31:53.Did you accept that if you were to accept this, it would be in breach
:31:54. > :31:58.of the Treaty of Rome, the founding principle of the European Union We
:31:59. > :32:02.were trying to keep the restrictions that Bulgaria and Romania accepted
:32:03. > :32:05.for their first seven years of EU membership, on the basis that when
:32:06. > :32:10.we signed the treaty we weren't aware that we would have a huge and
:32:11. > :32:15.catastrophic recession we are still recovering from. But you would be in
:32:16. > :32:19.breach of the law, correct? The UK Parliament has a right to say we
:32:20. > :32:24.signed this deal before the terrible recession, and we need a bit longer
:32:25. > :32:31.in our national interest. It is worth noting that Bulgaria and
:32:32. > :32:35.Romania haven't met all their accession requirements. The
:32:36. > :32:40.Bulgarian requirement passed a law... So if they break the law it
:32:41. > :32:46.is alright for us to break the law? Is we should be focusing on trying
:32:47. > :32:51.to get 2. 4 million of our own in work, and 1 million people not in
:32:52. > :32:57.work... Let me bring in Diane Abbott. Will you vote for this
:32:58. > :33:02.amendment and why? It is in breach of the treaty. While I deplore MPs
:33:03. > :33:05.that try to cause trouble, these MPs have been particularly mindless
:33:06. > :33:11.because what they want to do wouldn't be legal. However, it is a
:33:12. > :33:16.Tory internal brief, if I might say so. Maybe you can cause trouble by
:33:17. > :33:22.voting for it. No, that would be going too far. Underlying it is a
:33:23. > :33:26.real antagonism for David Cameron. They have had to hold off on this
:33:27. > :33:30.bill until January. It was supposed to be debating before Christmas As
:33:31. > :33:38.we speak they've not cut a deal so it could be pretty grus om. Nigel
:33:39. > :33:43.Mills, what do you say to that I think there is a recognition that
:33:44. > :33:47.there is a problem with the amount of migration from EU countries that
:33:48. > :33:51.we need to tackle. We could try to achieve an annual cap perhaps,
:33:52. > :33:54.longer limits on when countries get free movement. I think the debate is
:33:55. > :33:58.moving in the right direction, but I think those people who are trapped
:33:59. > :34:03.out of work and desperately looking for work want something to be done
:34:04. > :34:08.now and not wait a few more years while we have more assessments
:34:09. > :34:13.Andrews. People are worried about the level of immigration. They I it
:34:14. > :34:19.is too high. That's the consensus in the country. We spoke to to
:34:20. > :34:22.migration centre in Hackney and they said they are struggling to cope
:34:23. > :34:26.with the number of people using their services. These are people
:34:27. > :34:31.with problems with the law. In the past years EU migrants put in more
:34:32. > :34:36.to the economy in taxation than they take out in benefits. When it comes
:34:37. > :34:41.to free movement, which is agitating Nige em, that horse has bolted. We
:34:42. > :34:46.signed a treaty. There is nothing people like Nigel Mills can do,
:34:47. > :34:50.unless they want to rip their party apart, God forbid. Will you go as
:34:51. > :34:55.far as to rip your party apart, Nigel Mills? Are you going to take
:34:56. > :35:00.this all the way? Would you rather see this bill go down than your
:35:01. > :35:06.amendment not be accepted? This is a very important bill. I think we all
:35:07. > :35:10.want to see measures on the statute book, so the last thing we want to
:35:11. > :35:15.see is this bill go down. We do need to set out clearly that we have real
:35:16. > :35:22.concerns about the level of EU migration and something needs to be
:35:23. > :35:27.done. Would you rather have the bill without your amendment or no bill at
:35:28. > :35:32.all? I am hoping we can have the bill with the amendment. I know
:35:33. > :35:38.that, but if you can't? Is that will depend on what the Labour Party
:35:39. > :35:43.decide to do. They are talking tougher on immigration but will they
:35:44. > :35:47.take action on it? Your party has been talking tough on immigration
:35:48. > :35:51.but I will be surprised if an Ed Miliband Labour Party would vote for
:35:52. > :35:56.egg in direct cameravention of the Treaty of Rome. It would make no
:35:57. > :36:03.sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for the impossible. If I was a Tory I
:36:04. > :36:08.would be wringing high hands. He hasn't ruled out crashing the bill.
:36:09. > :36:14.That's incredible. Where will this end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a
:36:15. > :36:19.vote on Thursday. There's a lot of amendments people can use to show
:36:20. > :36:22.their concern about migration. We want limited and proportionate
:36:23. > :36:27.action, and that's what I am proposing. I want to see the bill on
:36:28. > :36:32.the statute book, I want the restrictions on people who shouldn't
:36:33. > :36:36.be here getting bank accounts and driving licences. I don't want to
:36:37. > :36:42.crash this bill but there's more measures we need in it. Nigel Mills
:36:43. > :36:47.thank you. You are going to be - popping up I think on the Sunday
:36:48. > :36:54.Politics East Midlands. Diane Abbott, thank you as well.
:36:55. > :36:57.We're in for more heavy rain and high winds across the UK today. You
:36:58. > :36:59.may remember that one UKIP councillor - he's since been
:37:00. > :37:02.suspended - caused controversy last weekend by blaming the recent
:37:03. > :37:06.flooding on the legalisation of gay marriage. Why didn't I think of
:37:07. > :37:09.that? So who better than this man to bring you the unofficial forecast.
:37:10. > :37:14.I'll be bringing you the late least UKIP weather from your area.
:37:15. > :37:21.You're watching Sunday Politics Also coming up in just over 20
:37:22. > :37:36.minutes, I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel.
:37:37. > :37:54.Good morning. The local Euro MP with one of the lowest voting records. He
:37:55. > :38:04.is hardly ever seen in Brussels and he claims ?200,000 a year in
:38:05. > :38:22.allowances to find an anti`EU website. I joined by a member of
:38:23. > :38:31.UKIP and a green party activist Do you put the funding down to global
:38:32. > :38:45.warming or funding change? We cannot say that anyone prevent is the
:38:46. > :38:49.result of climate change. We cannot say how it will effect as at any one
:38:50. > :38:56.time but flooding and rising sea levels are a factor. Climate change
:38:57. > :39:01.is definitely a real thing but the question is what we shall do about
:39:02. > :39:14.it and politicians are unfortunately not taking enough action.
:39:15. > :39:22.I would agree that climate change is real. In terms of flooding, it was
:39:23. > :39:27.shocking coming up through Somerset at the weekend and finding that much
:39:28. > :39:31.of it is underwater. You accept a man`made climate
:39:32. > :39:38.change? I accept climate change but how much
:39:39. > :39:44.of it is man made is up for debate. Most of the people who disagree that
:39:45. > :39:51.climate change is caused by our activities are normally involved in
:39:52. > :39:55.those activities. The question is what do we do about
:39:56. > :40:04.it? And now our main story. The UKIP MEP
:40:05. > :40:08.who is laid`back when it comes to his activities. In the last year,
:40:09. > :40:15.Trevor Colman has not made on speech are asked one question. Yet he is
:40:16. > :40:18.paid ?80,000 per year and admits that one of his reasons for turning
:40:19. > :40:26.up is the claim allowances, which he spends on a website. This website
:40:27. > :40:34.campaigns to Britain to come out of the European Union.
:40:35. > :40:38.The Euro elections always give UKIP something to smile about. Last
:40:39. > :40:48.election they won two seats in the South West, 13 in all.
:40:49. > :40:55.Two former MEP have ended up in jail. Some have left to join the
:40:56. > :41:02.Tories and others have departed acrimoniously. That is frustration
:41:03. > :41:05.and even anger amongst senior party figures at the performance of Trevor
:41:06. > :41:13.Colman. You will not find on the UKIP
:41:14. > :41:19.benches. He sits apart since a disagreement in 2010. He has taken
:41:20. > :41:27.part in just over half of the boats and has made speeches are asked
:41:28. > :41:38.questions 19 times. The total for a UKIP colleague is 673.
:41:39. > :41:41.Trevor Coleman makes no apology The European Parliament has no
:41:42. > :41:50.power. It cannot change or make legislation. We are a pantomime
:41:51. > :41:54.giving the illusion of democracy were none exists. Why make a speech
:41:55. > :41:59.when you know it is totally ineffective? You're talking to a
:42:00. > :42:05.gallery of about six people and I do not see the point of me doing that.
:42:06. > :42:10.Why did you get elected if you want to do anything?
:42:11. > :42:15.I am trying to get us out of this mess and that can only be achieved
:42:16. > :42:19.over here. One of the reasons he flies back and
:42:20. > :42:25.forth to Europe is to clock in to get money.
:42:26. > :42:31.Is one of the main motivations to enable you to get allowances?
:42:32. > :42:38.I would not see it as a main motivation will stop it is a factor?
:42:39. > :42:47.Of course it is. Most of it is spent on a website.
:42:48. > :42:56.Five staff work on it and around ?200,000 of European Union money
:42:57. > :43:02.funds and anti`European Union website he refuses to detail his
:43:03. > :43:09.expenses on the official UKIP party website.
:43:10. > :43:15.We do not have to publish any of this. If people are interested in
:43:16. > :43:19.how I spend our do not spend money they can come to this office and
:43:20. > :43:26.examine the accounts. He says he has broken all rules but
:43:27. > :43:35.other side members of the European Parliament are not convinced.
:43:36. > :43:40.There is a massive amount goes on in the European Parliament and that is
:43:41. > :43:51.why most members of the full`time in doing their jobs. I'm sorry F Trevor
:43:52. > :43:54.Colman finds it so boring you want to input into legislation and make
:43:55. > :43:58.sure that things are right for people in the south`west.
:43:59. > :44:06.You need to have people working and they are not working and making a
:44:07. > :44:10.badge of honour of not working, we have one hand tied behind our back
:44:11. > :44:16.before we start. Trevor Coleman stands down in May
:44:17. > :44:26.and UKIP hopes his successor will cause less trouble.
:44:27. > :44:39.Steve Crowther, you are chair of UKIP. What do you make of this?
:44:40. > :44:48.We have a high average and I am delighted.
:44:49. > :44:57.Trevor Colman does not work as a team.
:44:58. > :45:02.The point about how UKIP approaches the European Parliament is that we
:45:03. > :45:06.have a job to do and we do it. We campaign for Britain to come out of
:45:07. > :45:10.the European Parliament. That is different to what any of the other
:45:11. > :45:20.parties do. Is there a moral case for turning up
:45:21. > :45:28.at meetings just a claim allowances? Every MEP from everywhere in Europe
:45:29. > :45:34.receives exactly the same allowance on EU law basis. The do not have to
:45:35. > :45:44.do anything with it apart from receive it. The more you go all the
:45:45. > :45:49.more daily allowances you get. There was a comment that if you take it
:45:50. > :45:57.seriously you go a lot. You also get paid to go a lot.
:45:58. > :46:01.His salary is ?80,000 and yet he hardly represents the views of
:46:02. > :46:09.people in the South West. He spends most of his time on this anti`EU
:46:10. > :46:27.website. If you bought for UKIP, `` vote you
:46:28. > :46:32.must know what our attitude is. We spread our work and divide our
:46:33. > :46:41.labour but we have a lot of what to do here as well as a lot of work
:46:42. > :46:52.there. You could argue that Trevor Colman
:46:53. > :47:02.is being honest. I wanted to challenge the last point
:47:03. > :47:10.that Steve made. UKIP have the worst members of the European Parliament
:47:11. > :47:14.and Green members have the best It is a privilege to be paid as a
:47:15. > :47:20.politician and this is very disappointing to be treated in this
:47:21. > :47:25.way. UKIP have a policy that expenses and
:47:26. > :47:32.details are published. He will not do that. Why will you not
:47:33. > :47:39.discipline? Trevor is a man of independent mind.
:47:40. > :47:50.He is a Cornishman and has being doing this for ten years. When
:47:51. > :47:54.someone is elected as an MEP, they have freedom to design the way that
:47:55. > :48:00.they work under the rules of the European Parliament. Trevor has
:48:01. > :48:05.decided to create this particular information source and I have to say
:48:06. > :48:10.that he has attended hundreds of meetings with groups around the
:48:11. > :48:12.south`west in his time in Parliament taking that information we have
:48:13. > :48:17.found out from the European Parliament and telling people about
:48:18. > :48:25.it. Let us talk about immigration. The
:48:26. > :48:46.remaining in an bold gradient influx has not materialised.
:48:47. > :48:53.We waited and we waited but the crowds never came. On the first
:48:54. > :49:08.flight, just one man mauled by the media. So far the lifting of
:49:09. > :49:20.restrictions on Romanian and Bulgarian workers have not resulted
:49:21. > :49:28.in an increase of immigrants. They are hard`working people and
:49:29. > :49:34.they are valued by their employers. They do not understand why this
:49:35. > :49:44.negative campaign has been made against them.
:49:45. > :49:54.Some of the community in Bristol meet in this church. One family said
:49:55. > :50:01.they had the door kicked in and a teenage girl had to change schools
:50:02. > :50:24.after being repeatedly labelled an invader.
:50:25. > :50:32.We are just Steve `` Romanian. That is wrong information about us.
:50:33. > :50:44.The Conservatives claim that UKIP may be to blame for this wrong
:50:45. > :50:49.information. They must know that the figures were
:50:50. > :50:57.an exaggeration and realised that does not help the debate. We want
:50:58. > :51:04.facts and not scaremongering. There is a rapidly changing
:51:05. > :51:10.population in the West. It is unsurprising that immigration
:51:11. > :51:21.remains a live motion for the public. I have always been a liberal
:51:22. > :51:25.but I will not put liberal any more. It is important the country is not
:51:26. > :51:28.overrun with immigrants and we need to look after the English public and
:51:29. > :51:36.make sure they can get work and jobs. There is an awful lot of hate
:51:37. > :51:40.and scaremongering. People need to remember where this country came
:51:41. > :51:48.from and the fact that immigration made it what it is.
:51:49. > :51:53.The political mood music grew louder this week as the Prime Minister
:51:54. > :51:59.sought to limit freedom of movement across the European Union. The
:52:00. > :52:20.official figures come out and may just in time for the European
:52:21. > :52:29.elections. What is the case with human borders?
:52:30. > :52:36.We have enjoyed a lot of value from migration. Many engineers and the
:52:37. > :52:42.like will have to be recruited from around the world.
:52:43. > :52:47.Pressure on wages and housing will stop mass immigration will have an
:52:48. > :52:55.impact on your members? It is our job to make sure people
:52:56. > :52:59.are protected at work that our graduates have a right to go to
:53:00. > :53:05.Germany to work and we have to be careful to get the balance right
:53:06. > :53:15.about the value of cooperation. Have you find that immigrants are
:53:16. > :53:19.abused here? I was talking to a worker the other
:53:20. > :53:25.day who came to Britain ten years ago from Romania but said that in
:53:26. > :53:31.the last few weeks it has turned hostile.
:53:32. > :53:38.Do you think the government is right to stop new arrivals claiming
:53:39. > :53:41.benefits? If we have a single market and we
:53:42. > :53:47.must have the same rights in the same rules for everyone. We have to
:53:48. > :53:56.look at the quality of work across the European Union and one of the
:53:57. > :54:00.problems that happened in 2004 was that things were driven by business
:54:01. > :54:07.interests and socialist governments did not insist on minimum wages
:54:08. > :54:15.Do you accept that we are a small island and need some space?
:54:16. > :54:21.I accept that population is an important issue. We must also deal
:54:22. > :54:26.with climate change because that is making more parts of the world is
:54:27. > :54:34.impossible to inhabit. Steve, was UKIP wrong with its
:54:35. > :54:42.figures? We did not say the 29 million
:54:43. > :54:49.Romanian and Bulgarian people would arrive. We said that they would have
:54:50. > :54:54.the rights to come here if they chose.
:54:55. > :55:04.You mentioned a figure of 29 million. We think there are about 30
:55:05. > :55:10.people that have arrived. We have never said that these people
:55:11. > :55:14.would all come. We said that from the 1st of January, the European
:55:15. > :55:19.Union would grant them the right to. We have seen in the past with
:55:20. > :55:25.transition countries that estimates of how many will come have been very
:55:26. > :55:29.much out of the actual figure. Nobody knows what the figures will
:55:30. > :55:36.be in the future. We have not made any estimates. 29 million people is
:55:37. > :55:46.the total population of Romanian and Bulgarian in Europe. Do you except
:55:47. > :55:51.that created a climate where people are scared?
:55:52. > :56:03.It created a climate where we are talking about this in the government
:56:04. > :56:12.are talking about this. This is a very irresponsible way of
:56:13. > :56:20.doing politics. People vote for politicians because they know the
:56:21. > :56:27.platform they stand on. Do you accept that UKIP are right on
:56:28. > :56:35.the money with public opinion? But they are deliberately shifting
:56:36. > :56:41.public opinion with myths of fear. If you ask people concerned in these
:56:42. > :56:47.areas of whether they worry about migration in their own lives, they
:56:48. > :56:54.are not. There are disgraceful lies in my opinion such as those coming
:56:55. > :57:01.from the Daily Mail. We have to leave it there. Another
:57:02. > :57:11.political week has gone by. Here is a quick recapture.
:57:12. > :57:24.As an employment fell across the country, there was a big jobs boost
:57:25. > :57:39.for Wiltshire. The badger cull drew more criticism. . If I from Stroud
:57:40. > :57:45.and a form from Bristol said recognise had switched to services
:57:46. > :57:54.they provided at the bad press for other energy providers.
:57:55. > :57:59.We are still accelerating. And Bristol City Football Club
:58:00. > :58:15.finally abandoned plans for a new stadium.
:58:16. > :58:22.We are talking about wind turbines. They were going out of fashion but
:58:23. > :58:27.now they are back? I am very pleased with all these
:58:28. > :58:38.jobs. If you see a large company come in and setup wind turbines you
:58:39. > :58:47.will oppose them obscuring your view. We are supporting energy
:58:48. > :58:53.renewables. We are not in favour of unreliable
:58:54. > :59:03.renewables through wind and solar power. We must fill the hall in
:59:04. > :59:09.energy that is looming. It is predicted we will have blackouts
:59:10. > :59:16.from 2015 on words and this is because of the failure of government
:59:17. > :59:22.energy policy. We started with climate change and
:59:23. > :59:29.we do have good resources for solar power and wind power and it is an
:59:30. > :59:33.important growth opportunity for the South West and we should not allow
:59:34. > :59:40.backward looking politicians to be against that. We are completely
:59:41. > :59:56.opposed to nuclear and we are the only political party that now
:59:57. > :59:59.totally opposes it. They are the only political party
:00:00. > :00:08.left that believes that nuclear power is wrong. We are kidding
:00:09. > :00:15.ourselves if we think we can survive without it.
:00:16. > :00:23.And that is it for this week. Thank you to our guests. You can sign up
:00:24. > :00:42.for our new Twitter account. back to you.
:00:43. > :00:45.UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this
:00:46. > :00:48.week he's been outdoing himself He was hit over the head with a placard
:00:49. > :00:51.by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with
:00:52. > :00:58.children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning
:00:59. > :01:01.handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's
:01:02. > :01:05.own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story
:01:06. > :01:10.that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that
:01:11. > :01:13.flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a
:01:14. > :01:22.moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all
:01:23. > :01:25.areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land."
:01:26. > :01:32.You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip
:01:33. > :01:38.councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill The
:01:39. > :01:43.old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though
:01:44. > :01:50.he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How
:01:51. > :01:58.quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are
:01:59. > :02:03.occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour
:02:04. > :02:09.councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral,
:02:10. > :02:17.and said his real mother was a foot green alien. And in Wales a
:02:18. > :02:25.councillor thinking about heading off for the
:02:26. > :02:34.slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after
:02:35. > :02:39.Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort.
:02:40. > :02:45.Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for
:02:46. > :02:50.hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising
:02:51. > :02:57.ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise
:02:58. > :03:01.light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no
:03:02. > :03:06.chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the
:03:07. > :03:11.Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that
:03:12. > :03:16.had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it
:03:17. > :03:21.is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows,
:03:22. > :03:27.that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an
:03:28. > :03:32.excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It
:03:33. > :03:37.shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections.
:03:38. > :03:41.Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The
:03:42. > :03:45.establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a
:03:46. > :03:52.waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of
:03:53. > :03:56.person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage
:03:57. > :04:00.on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they
:04:01. > :04:03.flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest
:04:04. > :04:10.set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any
:04:11. > :04:16.other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any
:04:17. > :04:21.other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a
:04:22. > :04:24.time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States now
:04:25. > :04:30.almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would
:04:31. > :04:39.be a crisis. It seems to wash off him. He's got congenital
:04:40. > :04:44.foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into another wild nothing to do with why
:04:45. > :04:48.people might vote UKIP. I don't think people are desperate to have
:04:49. > :04:54.handgun licences back in this country. It is such an unusual
:04:55. > :05:01.phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying
:05:02. > :05:06.it, we've seen the damage done to the Lib Dems on a much more serious
:05:07. > :05:10.manner, we would say this is terminal. But maybe it adds to this
:05:11. > :05:16.image that we are not like the other parties. I think that is it. We keep
:05:17. > :05:21.waiting for these scandals and embarrassments to do damage to
:05:22. > :05:27.UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not working. It is ultimately because if
:05:28. > :05:33.you are an antiestablishment party, if you are an anti-system party the
:05:34. > :05:38.rules of the game which apply to the establishment parties don't apply to
:05:39. > :05:42.you. And the more ramshackle and embarrassing you are, the more
:05:43. > :05:49.authentic you seem. It what be take something for them not to finish
:05:50. > :05:53.second in May. Do they spend the following 12 months sinking in the
:05:54. > :05:57.poll snoos And George Osborne's strategy is fame everything as
:05:58. > :06:01.Labour versus the Conservatives The electorate will have their fun in
:06:02. > :06:07.May. Maybe the Tories will be beat into third place but in thejection
:06:08. > :06:15.is that -- but in the general election it is Labour versus the
:06:16. > :06:19.Tories. The Conservative Party will run around, 46 letters to Graham
:06:20. > :06:24.Brady, a leadership contest. That sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules
:06:25. > :06:28.well in the European elections, could cause big trouble for Mr
:06:29. > :06:35.Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it? The big point about this, David
:06:36. > :06:40.Cameron said this is not a political party but a pressure group. This is
:06:41. > :06:46.the way to look at UKIP, and the way it is used by people in the right of
:06:47. > :06:53.the party, who say we have to do this. I like the policy of painting
:06:54. > :07:04.the trains in their old liveries. It would be like my old train set. I
:07:05. > :07:14.like the bigger passports. Pre-GNER... And London and Midland.
:07:15. > :07:17.I used to be a train spotter. Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the
:07:18. > :07:23.phone. Good to know you are watching but pity you are not here. He wanted
:07:24. > :07:28.to clarify he had constituency commitments to prevent him coming on
:07:29. > :07:31.the show to talk about becoming leader of the party, but he didn't
:07:32. > :07:34.dispute anything we said on the show.
:07:35. > :07:37.Yesterday, Ed Balls said that housing investment will be a central
:07:38. > :07:41.priority for the next Labour Government. It's a big issue, as the
:07:42. > :07:43.lack of new homes pushes up the the price of owning or renting. Well,
:07:44. > :07:46.tomorrow the Tories will announce what they say is the most ambitious
:07:47. > :07:54.programme of affordable housebuilding for 20 years. The
:07:55. > :08:00.Government sees housing as a really important part of the economy.
:08:01. > :08:05.That's why we are announcing a 23 billion package for 165,000 new
:08:06. > :08:09.affordable homes. So individual builders, councils, housing
:08:10. > :08:14.associations can bid for that money. Phase one, which we are halfway
:08:15. > :08:18.through at the moment, we've built 170,000 houses. 99,000 already
:08:19. > :08:26.coming out of the ground, so we ve made real progress on that. So,
:08:27. > :08:31.165,000 new, affordable homes. It is a lot. Let me add three more words.
:08:32. > :08:35.Over three years. It is not such a lot. It is not, and Labour's
:08:36. > :08:40.commitment is 200,000 homes a year and even that isn't enough. The
:08:41. > :08:45.problem here is that the vest interest is with people who already
:08:46. > :08:48.have homes. They have a vote in the system through the planning
:08:49. > :08:52.regulations. In London there is a gap in the hedge through Richmond
:08:53. > :08:58.Park through which you should be able to see St Paul's Cathedral
:08:59. > :09:02.That's why you cannot build homes where you want them. I don't think
:09:03. > :09:10.we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's
:09:11. > :09:14.dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply,
:09:15. > :09:20.which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George
:09:21. > :09:24.Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the
:09:25. > :09:31.Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen
:09:32. > :09:36.to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do
:09:37. > :09:40.radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can
:09:41. > :09:44.tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken
:09:45. > :09:48.place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk
:09:49. > :09:52.about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities
:09:53. > :09:56.argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to
:09:57. > :10:00.agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they
:10:01. > :10:06.are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of
:10:07. > :10:11.what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are
:10:12. > :10:17.already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing
:10:18. > :10:20.stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if
:10:21. > :10:24.you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning
:10:25. > :10:28.promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard
:10:29. > :10:34.place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is
:10:35. > :10:38.growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake
:10:39. > :10:41.Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If
:10:42. > :10:47.that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower
:10:48. > :10:52.Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of
:10:53. > :10:57.dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected
:10:58. > :11:03.by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young
:11:04. > :11:08.Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the
:11:09. > :11:12.garden cities project is interesting, because they finance
:11:13. > :11:17.themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million
:11:18. > :11:23.an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the
:11:24. > :11:29.greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities
:11:30. > :11:34.today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've
:11:35. > :11:38.read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and
:11:39. > :11:42.they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing
:11:43. > :11:46.theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist
:11:47. > :11:52.interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.
:11:53. > :11:57.Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put
:11:58. > :12:02.on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big
:12:03. > :12:06.split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular
:12:07. > :12:11.policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say
:12:12. > :12:14.50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the
:12:15. > :12:19.Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular
:12:20. > :12:23.but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract
:12:24. > :12:27.active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into
:12:28. > :12:32.power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy.
:12:33. > :12:35.The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do
:12:36. > :12:40.that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls
:12:41. > :12:45.would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the
:12:46. > :12:50.key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and
:12:51. > :12:54.how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more
:12:55. > :12:59.than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk
:13:00. > :13:03.about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of
:13:04. > :13:07.Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education
:13:08. > :13:11.Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting
:13:12. > :13:15.blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind
:13:16. > :13:19.the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think
:13:20. > :13:23.we'll have to have the head of Ofsted back on the programme. If you
:13:24. > :13:27.are watching, we're here. All that to the Lib Dems who didn't come on
:13:28. > :13:30.today. That's all for today. Thanks to all
:13:31. > :13:34.my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two,
:13:35. > :13:35.and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the
:13:36. > :14:13.Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers
:14:14. > :14:22.is now at war with Germany This would be the first
:14:23. > :14:32.truly modern war. and resolve of entire populations
:14:33. > :14:36.against each other.