:00:36. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped
:00:43. > :00:45.him beat his brother to the top Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's
:00:46. > :00:49.relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking
:00:50. > :00:52.one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after
:00:53. > :00:56.Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His
:00:57. > :01:00.Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new
:01:01. > :01:04.deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.
:01:05. > :01:06.Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his
:01:07. > :01:10.sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be
:01:11. > :01:13.asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.
:01:14. > :01:17.And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a
:01:18. > :01:19.nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her
:01:20. > :01:47.traffic and travel report. Dutch reassurance people want?
:01:48. > :01:51.Yes, all that and more in today s action-packed Sunday Politics. And
:01:52. > :01:57.blowing more hot air than I have had hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt
:01:58. > :01:59.and Iain Martin. After the row about candidate
:02:00. > :02:02.selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband said he wanted to reshape the
:02:03. > :02:06.relationship between Labour and the unions. The biggest changes involve
:02:07. > :02:11.union membership of the party, which in turn will affect future Labour
:02:12. > :02:16.leadership elections. Some claim this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But
:02:17. > :02:19.the unions will continue to be powerful at conference and on the
:02:20. > :02:23.party's ruling committees, and they will still be able to bankroll the
:02:24. > :02:32.election campaign. Here is Labour's deputy leader, Harriet Harman,
:02:33. > :02:36.speaking earlier. What he is proposing for the March the 1st
:02:37. > :02:40.conference is a huge change in financing, in the election of the
:02:41. > :02:45.leader, in what goes on at local level. In due course, it might have
:02:46. > :02:49.implications for the NEC elections and conference. But this is already
:02:50. > :02:52.a big issue to take forward. Joining me now is Paul Kenny,
:02:53. > :03:02.general secretary of the GMB union and chair of the Trade Union and
:03:03. > :03:08.Labour Party Liaison Organisation. Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4
:03:09. > :03:13.moment? I don't know about that It is certainly a bold move,
:03:14. > :03:17.particularly to have an electoral college, which as you said was the
:03:18. > :03:23.system which elected him in the first place. Everybody admits that
:03:24. > :03:28.has needed reforming for some time. Moving to a one member, one vote
:03:29. > :03:36.situation seems to me to be sensible. I know some people are
:03:37. > :03:40.upset, mostly MPs, who will lose their golden share. But it is
:03:41. > :03:49.nonsense that one MP should have the same vote as 1000 party members So
:03:50. > :03:59.the MPs have lost out. Have the unions lost out? Well, the system is
:04:00. > :04:04.currently that union members get a ballot paper, but they have to
:04:05. > :04:08.declare that they are a Labour supporter and they have to sign to
:04:09. > :04:14.that effect in order to participate. Then their vote is counted. At the
:04:15. > :04:19.last election, about 200,000 trade union members gave that indication,
:04:20. > :04:26.and they participated in that way. That will not change. The way it is
:04:27. > :04:31.organised will be different. The big change in the electoral college is
:04:32. > :04:38.that the logical weight given to MPs will disappear. I wonder if you have
:04:39. > :04:41.really lost anything. At the moment, there are about 3 million people
:04:42. > :04:47.automatically affiliated from the unions to the Labour Party. If only
:04:48. > :04:52.10% of them opt in, that will still mean twice as many union individual
:04:53. > :05:00.members, 300,000, versus about 180,000 Labour Party members. So
:05:01. > :05:03.union members and maybe even the unions will have as big an influence
:05:04. > :05:09.on the leadership elections as you do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are
:05:10. > :05:15.individual votes. Different unions support different candidates. It is
:05:16. > :05:21.lost in the media myth of barons and block votes, but there is an
:05:22. > :05:24.individual vote. Different unions recommend different candidates, and
:05:25. > :05:30.union members vote accordingly. Ed Miliband won more individual votes
:05:31. > :05:37.by a country mile than David, but it got messed up in the process of this
:05:38. > :05:41.electoral college. As I have understood the proposals so far
:05:42. > :05:49.they are not a done deal. There is a lot of discussion. But it seems
:05:50. > :05:52.there are three hurdles. Firstly, union members themselves will have
:05:53. > :05:55.to agree whether they want to affiliate to the Labour Party. If
:05:56. > :06:02.they don't, the rest of it falls. If they decide they do my they will ask
:06:03. > :06:06.union members to support that an individual basis the next five
:06:07. > :06:10.years, which will have financial implications. Then there will be a
:06:11. > :06:15.third position, which is that people who may want to agree with the
:06:16. > :06:18.union's position and affiliate with the Labour Party may want to go
:06:19. > :06:22.further and become active supporters of the Labour Party, participating
:06:23. > :06:28.in leadership elections. They will have to give their sanction to that
:06:29. > :06:31.at a third stage. So the implications in terms of
:06:32. > :06:38.constituency parties and so on are a lot less than the idea that the 3
:06:39. > :06:41.million who are currently affiliated will change. At the moment, the
:06:42. > :06:48.unions, because of the automatic affiliation, hand over a affiliation
:06:49. > :06:52.fees of about ?8 million a year to Labour. You will now get to keep
:06:53. > :07:00.that money, because the individuals will have to put up the money
:07:01. > :07:03.themselves. You can keep that money and determine if you give it to
:07:04. > :07:08.Labour to fight the election campaign, correct? Incorrect.
:07:09. > :07:12.Firstly, the affiliation fees are paid from what is called the
:07:13. > :07:17.political fund, which most unions have to set up in order to
:07:18. > :07:23.participate. The union will continue to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for
:07:24. > :07:31.those members who want the union to be affiliated. But you get to keep a
:07:32. > :07:37.lot more money. In reality, we will see a transitional period of a few
:07:38. > :07:44.years. Less people will probably say yes, depending on how popular Labour
:07:45. > :07:48.are, about whether they want the union to give money to the Labour
:07:49. > :08:03.Party. The GMB has already done this. By the way, don't call me
:08:04. > :08:06.kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The unions will have a bigger chunk of
:08:07. > :08:10.money because the unions will not be handing over all of the money at one
:08:11. > :08:14.time. But you could still play a major part in funding the Labour
:08:15. > :08:20.election campaign. We'll how much you give the dependent on what the
:08:21. > :08:28.Labour Party puts in its manifesto? Of course it will. It will have to
:08:29. > :08:33.justify our support to Labour for the members who provide money to the
:08:34. > :08:37.political fund. If we did not argue for the cert is social justice
:08:38. > :08:41.campaigns and laws we want to see, we would be failing in our job. I
:08:42. > :08:45.don't intend to hide that from anybody. The unions are there to
:08:46. > :08:52.fight for their members. That is our job. So you will still be a major
:08:53. > :08:56.part of the bankroll of the Labour campaign. You will still have 5 % of
:08:57. > :09:00.the votes at a Labour conference, and you will still have a major part
:09:01. > :09:04.in the Labour National executive committee and the policy committee.
:09:05. > :09:14.It is right to say the unions are still at the heart of Labour, are
:09:15. > :09:16.they not? Well, if you sick to break the affiliated link between trade
:09:17. > :09:22.unions and the Labour Party, the whole thing collapses. That is what
:09:23. > :09:26.anchors the Labour Party as far as we are concerned. Many of our
:09:27. > :09:30.members think that when they want to look for ferrochrome and rights
:09:31. > :09:33.social justice, housing and the health service, Labour are better it
:09:34. > :09:37.quipped to deliver that for working people than the current parties
:09:38. > :09:43.That is why we have traditionally supported them. But not at all of
:09:44. > :09:49.our members support Labour, which is why we don't affiliate all of them
:09:50. > :09:53.to Labour. There are over 30 million people in the British labour force
:09:54. > :10:04.now. Union membership is only 6 5 million out of that 30. A 6.5% of
:10:05. > :10:10.that do not vote Labour, they vote Tory or liberal or nationalist in
:10:11. > :10:17.Scotland. So you are a relatively small pressure group. Why should
:10:18. > :10:20.Labour be in thrall to you? We are the biggest voluntary organisation
:10:21. > :10:27.in this country. Sorry about that, but that is the fact. People make
:10:28. > :10:30.conscious choices. My own union the GMB, has been growing for eight
:10:31. > :10:36.years. So this dying picture you are trying to paint... In terms of
:10:37. > :10:39.accounting for the fact that some do not support Labour, that is why
:10:40. > :10:47.unions do not affiliate all of their members to the Labour Party. We have
:10:48. > :10:52.adjusted to that. If you don't like being called Neil, I don't like
:10:53. > :11:00.being called a barren either. What about Mr Baron? I don't like that
:11:01. > :11:02.either. We are representatives of working organisations. It may be
:11:03. > :11:07.inconvenient for politicians to have to listen to working people, but we
:11:08. > :11:14.will continue to press. Lord Baron, thank you very much.
:11:15. > :11:19.So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed Miliband? Not really, but to his
:11:20. > :11:22.credit, he is going ahead with this. There was a point at which it looked
:11:23. > :11:27.as though Ed Miliband would back away from reform. To his credit he
:11:28. > :11:32.is trying to create a mass membership party again. But when it
:11:33. > :11:35.comes to the crucial business of funding a general election campaign,
:11:36. > :11:42.these reforms will make Labour more reliant on large donations from
:11:43. > :11:46.trade unions. They could have more power now, because they get to hold
:11:47. > :11:51.back this money, whereas beforehand, they had to hand it over
:11:52. > :11:59.automatically. As Mr Kenny just said, how much they handover will be
:12:00. > :12:02.dependent on good behaviour. Yes, but these are pragmatic reforms The
:12:03. > :12:06.fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of capital in not being seen as a
:12:07. > :12:10.Blairite has helped him get these through . The response has been
:12:11. > :12:15.muted, which suggests good party management on his behalf. That may
:12:16. > :12:18.be because they will still have 50% of the votes at a party conference.
:12:19. > :12:22.Mr Kenny was clear that that could be deal-breaker if they tried to
:12:23. > :12:28.take that away. They have more places at the NEC than anyone else,
:12:29. > :12:32.and party members, if only 10% of them signed up, they will outweigh
:12:33. > :12:38.individual members in the constituencies. It was interesting,
:12:39. > :12:41.how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was taking thousands of pounds from the
:12:42. > :12:44.Labour Party a few months ago because he was annoyed about these
:12:45. > :12:49.reforms, and now he is relaxed because they still have 50% of the
:12:50. > :12:52.vote at Labour Party conference and Labour Party Parliamentary
:12:53. > :12:56.candidates are still selected in the same way. But there is a simple
:12:57. > :12:59.point here. Yes, you can pick apart what Ed Miliband said and said the
:13:00. > :13:04.unions have too much influence, but the only way he could have gone all
:13:05. > :13:09.the way was to break the link with the trade unions, and he was not
:13:10. > :13:12.going to do that. It was not the Labour Party that founded the
:13:13. > :13:19.unions, it was the unions that founded the Labour Party. Even Tony
:13:20. > :13:24.Blair did not break the link. In that context, Ed Miliband has gone
:13:25. > :13:28.incredibly far. For the last 50 years, this opting into the union,
:13:29. > :13:32.you have to turn to page 50 of your union terms and conditions to say,
:13:33. > :13:36.do you want to opt out of the political levy 's that is going to
:13:37. > :13:43.go, which will mean that when the next Labour leader is elected from
:13:44. > :13:45.the union votes, they will get their ballot from the Labour Party and you
:13:46. > :13:51.will append the fast where ballots went out from Unison macro and GMB
:13:52. > :13:56.with a picture of Ed Miliband on the front of the ballot paper saying,
:13:57. > :14:01.vote for aid. They were Stasi and Saddam Hussein ways of trade union
:14:02. > :14:06.members electing the Labour leader, which will go. I am sorry his
:14:07. > :14:10.Lordship is not still here to answer that question.
:14:11. > :14:14.HMS Coalition is not a happy ship. The lovey-dovey days in the rose
:14:15. > :14:17.garden are long gone. It is not a loveless marriage, perhaps even an
:14:18. > :14:19.open one. The latest split is over the decision by Education Secretary
:14:20. > :14:23.Michael Gove to replace Labour peer Sally Morgan as head of the schools
:14:24. > :14:26.inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said
:14:27. > :14:31.to be spitting blood about her removal, although only through
:14:32. > :14:36.surrogates. He has not said a word on the record. Here was the
:14:37. > :14:47.Education Secretary a little earlier. If there is another
:14:48. > :14:51.opportunity for Sally to serve in a different role at a different time,
:14:52. > :14:56.then I would be delighted to support her in the role which she thinks it
:14:57. > :14:59.is appropriate to do. There is nothing wrong with Sally but there
:15:00. > :15:04.is a principle across government that there should be no automatic
:15:05. > :15:09.reappointment, and that after three or four years, it is appropriate to
:15:10. > :15:13.bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That is good corporate practice in order
:15:14. > :15:22.to ensure that you refresh boards, bring a new perspective, and have
:15:23. > :15:25.tough questions asked. We're joined now by the newly elected deputy
:15:26. > :15:29.leader of the Liberal Democrats Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen
:15:30. > :15:36.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. David Laws is said to be furious
:15:37. > :15:40.with Michael Gove, is he? I think he is because Sally Morgan has been
:15:41. > :15:45.doing a good job and that has been generally agreed across the whole
:15:46. > :15:48.spectrum. I think Ofsted is an impartial body that inspects all
:15:49. > :15:53.schools and it shouldn't be subject to some kind of political direction.
:15:54. > :15:58.That is the concern, that she is being removed when she was doing a
:15:59. > :16:02.good job and most people thought she should be reappointed. It is
:16:03. > :16:15.strongly rumoured her successor will be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why
:16:16. > :16:21.hasn't David Laws said this himself, have you spoken to him? I have, and
:16:22. > :16:26.I know he is not very pleased about it but he will want to speak to
:16:27. > :16:31.Michael Gove himself when he gets to see him on Monday. The question you
:16:32. > :16:36.have to take on board is that David Laws is the schools minister,
:16:37. > :16:40.effectively the one who has engagement with Ofsted, and he is
:16:41. > :16:45.seeing it being undermined by the Secretary of State. There is a
:16:46. > :16:49.question that if Michael Gove is so pleased with Sally Morgan why is he
:16:50. > :16:54.replacing her, and who will he be replacing her with, and on what
:16:55. > :16:58.basis? Maybe parliament should have a confirmation hearing so that we
:16:59. > :17:07.can be assured that whoever is put in charge is there because they are
:17:08. > :17:12.good at it. Why has he licensed his surrogates to save this rather than
:17:13. > :17:17.saying it himself? He didn't, he knew I was on the programme this
:17:18. > :17:24.morning so I am giving you the answers as best I can. David is
:17:25. > :17:31.perfectly capable of speaking for himself. He hasn't so far. You asked
:17:32. > :17:35.me to come on this programme and David was anxious for me to know he
:17:36. > :17:41.wasn't happy about it, and I can certainly tell you that. I can also
:17:42. > :17:44.give you my own opinion which is that Ofsted is not the Department
:17:45. > :17:51.for Education, it is an independent body. The question you have to ask
:17:52. > :17:57.is will Michael Gove but someone in charge of Ofsted who will have a
:17:58. > :18:03.political agenda? If so, that is not what Ofsted should be used for.
:18:04. > :18:15.Let's move on to your own position. You are 69, white male,
:18:16. > :18:20.middle-class, what is your answer to the party with diversity problems? I
:18:21. > :18:23.don't think that is what they voted on. They felt I had a wealth of
:18:24. > :18:28.experience that would be vulnerable to the party from the period now
:18:29. > :18:31.until the election, not least because the central issues that will
:18:32. > :18:38.concern voters are the economy, and I have a track record of promoting
:18:39. > :18:44.the party's economic policy over many years. But you are not even
:18:45. > :18:48.standing at the next election. No, but we need to get to the next
:18:49. > :19:00.election and my colleagues have confidence that I can do a useful
:19:01. > :19:02.job for the party in that situation. We have developed and delivered
:19:03. > :19:05.policies that I have helped to shape and I want to persuade people to
:19:06. > :19:08.understand the Liberal Democrats have made a fundamental difference
:19:09. > :19:12.to the economic recovery. But you know what has been happening with
:19:13. > :19:17.the Liberal Democrats and their problems with women. Wasn't this a
:19:18. > :19:23.chance to select a woman in a major part? You only have seven female MPs
:19:24. > :19:32.out of 57, not a single Lib Dem woman in the Parliament. Again, why
:19:33. > :19:37.you rather than making a break and bringing someone in onto major
:19:38. > :19:44.positions? My colleagues have concluded that the role I am best
:19:45. > :19:50.qualified to do it, that is why they voted for me. We do only have seven
:19:51. > :20:01.women and that is an issue we need to address. Two of those women are
:20:02. > :20:07.ministers, one is a government whip. We seem to have lost our line to
:20:08. > :20:11.Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was in full flight defending his
:20:12. > :20:18.position. I'm not sure if we can get the line back, just bear with me for
:20:19. > :20:23.a few seconds to see if we can get it. It looks as if we have lost
:20:24. > :20:27.Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that
:20:28. > :20:35.we were not able to continue that interview.
:20:36. > :20:38.Fierce winds, torrential rain and a tidal surge have brought more misery
:20:39. > :20:40.to thousands. Official records show that southern England has seen the
:20:41. > :20:44.wettest January since records began in 1767. I remember it well. The
:20:45. > :20:49.Somerset Levels have been hit by weeks of flooding, with little
:20:50. > :20:52.respite from relentless rain. And, the residents of one village on the
:20:53. > :20:58.Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off for almost a month. We sent our Adam
:20:59. > :21:17.out with his wellies and a properly filled out risk assessment form The
:21:18. > :21:21.very wet road to Muchelney. This village of about 100 residents has
:21:22. > :21:29.been cut off for about four weeks, and like the weather vane, it feels
:21:30. > :21:35.a little bit spooky. It came up to here and your front door was there.
:21:36. > :21:39.Anita is just relieved the water stopped here, practically on her
:21:40. > :21:46.doorstep. Now it is the practicalities that are the problem.
:21:47. > :21:53.Driving around for food is quite a hassle. You are foraging. It's not
:21:54. > :21:57.as bad as that but we do have a few bits in the vegetable garden still,
:21:58. > :22:02.and we had some nice apples until the rats ate them but we are not
:22:03. > :22:11.doing too badly on that score. It sounds like the medieval! That's
:22:12. > :22:19.what it feels like. Talking of retro, who knew Somerset still had a
:22:20. > :22:25.Coleman, this is Brian's first delivery since Christmas. Everything
:22:26. > :22:28.has gone old-fashioned. We are now talking to neighbours we might never
:22:29. > :22:34.have seen before or spoken to so we are getting to know more people in
:22:35. > :22:39.the village. She's right, there has been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit,
:22:40. > :22:46.quite literally. The council and the Fire Brigade have put on this boat
:22:47. > :22:55.service to get people to work and school. The church has become an
:22:56. > :23:01.unofficial flood HQ. This is where people pick up their mail, and this
:23:02. > :23:06.is where the people who run the boat stopped for their tea breaks. It all
:23:07. > :23:12.seems quite jolly, if a bit boring, but it is no fun for the homes and
:23:13. > :23:18.businesses that have been inundated, or for the farmers whose land is
:23:19. > :23:21.underwater, an area the size of Bristol, or for the villages which
:23:22. > :23:26.are less isolated but where the flooding is worse. People like the
:23:27. > :23:32.parish chairman are starting to get angry with how the Government has
:23:33. > :23:38.responded. It was all a bit late. We knew what was going to happen with
:23:39. > :23:42.the amount of rain on the fields and the Government was so slow to
:23:43. > :23:46.react. The county council got the boat going quickly but it was
:23:47. > :23:52.another four weeks nearly before the button was pressed for the major
:23:53. > :23:57.incident. Right on cue, the cavalry arrived in the shape of emergency
:23:58. > :24:01.crews from other parts of the UK. The rumour is that they will bring
:24:02. > :24:06.in a hovercraft but the bad news is that the weather is becoming more
:24:07. > :24:12.grim this weekend. There has been a surge in bookings at the campsite
:24:13. > :24:16.where people have seen the Somerset Levels on holiday and would like to
:24:17. > :24:25.come on holiday, if it ever stops raining. I'm delighted to say we
:24:26. > :24:29.have got the line back to Aberdeen, somebody has put a shilling in the
:24:30. > :24:34.meter. We can go back to Malcolm Bruce. We were talking about the Lib
:24:35. > :24:40.Dem women and your election, I suppose the point some people are
:24:41. > :24:48.making is that your party has as many knights in Parliament as it has
:24:49. > :24:55.women and you are one of them. The good news is that for the five MPs
:24:56. > :25:00.who are standing down, who have had candidates elected in their
:25:01. > :25:05.constituencies so far, all five candidates that have been selected
:25:06. > :25:08.are women. We need to fight hard to get behind those women and get them
:25:09. > :25:13.elected so that we have a much better balanced parliament in the
:25:14. > :25:16.future, but given that we have few women, you really have to pick
:25:17. > :25:34.people appropriate for the job and we have appointed the women as I
:25:35. > :25:41.have said but we need our image to be balanced. How many women
:25:42. > :25:48.candidates will there be come the next election? At the moment, 1 ,
:25:49. > :25:51.five more than we have now, and we haven't finished selection. Where
:25:52. > :25:57.there are men sitting and standing again, that is not likely to change,
:25:58. > :26:01.but where they are standing down we are overwhelmingly choosing women,
:26:02. > :26:08.and in my view good and very able women. What I would want to say to
:26:09. > :26:16.people is that if you want to see the Lib Dems have more women, go to
:26:17. > :26:23.those seats and help us hold them. We are told that only 20% of the 57
:26:24. > :26:28.seats have female candidates and in the unlikely event that you were
:26:29. > :26:34.able to hold onto them all, it still wouldn't be a sea change to have
:26:35. > :26:41.20%. The point is you have to build them up. We are supporting female
:26:42. > :26:46.candidates. These are really good candidates who will make first-class
:26:47. > :26:50.MPs and I certainly believe you will gradually see the Liberal Democrats
:26:51. > :26:55.taking them on. We don't have 3 0 seats that we currently hold like
:26:56. > :27:02.other parties, but what I can tell you is that increasing --
:27:03. > :27:08.increasingly we will have female candidates. One newspaper has said
:27:09. > :27:12.that you will deal with the Chris Rennard fallout quickly and
:27:13. > :27:18.privately, what does that mean? It means I will not be telling you
:27:19. > :27:22.because these things are not helped by comments on the airwaves. I hope
:27:23. > :27:26.it will be possible to have a resolution without people going to
:27:27. > :27:30.court but I don't think it helps anybody for me to comment on any
:27:31. > :27:35.aspect of how this will be done and I'm not prepared to do so. If you
:27:36. > :27:44.are not in full possession of the facts, why did you say you will deal
:27:45. > :27:48.with this privately? I have come into this halfway through, I don't
:27:49. > :27:56.have full possession of the facts, I doubt you do, and we have a process
:27:57. > :28:01.that needs to be followed through. Any comments in public do not help.
:28:02. > :28:09.Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order to hear from a party that is
:28:10. > :28:14.constantly calling for transparency in other institutions but when it
:28:15. > :28:18.comes to your own, you say, I am not going to talk about it. There are
:28:19. > :28:22.all sorts of disputes that happen in the world and often people don't
:28:23. > :28:27.talk about them because talking about them aggravates the
:28:28. > :28:31.situation. I believe you have to deal with them privately and I don't
:28:32. > :28:35.think trial by media in this context is helpful and I don't believe that
:28:36. > :28:41.those who choose to make those comments are making it easier to
:28:42. > :28:44.solve them. There are problems in other walks of life and the Liberal
:28:45. > :28:49.Democrats are not the only ones with these problems. We are trying to
:28:50. > :28:53.change that culture and I think we will do it effectively in our own
:28:54. > :29:05.way. We have a pastoral care officer now and I think that is the right
:29:06. > :29:09.way to do it. Thank you for that. Let's now go back to the story of
:29:10. > :29:17.the flooding in Somerset. We are joined by the leader of the Green
:29:18. > :29:22.party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank. Natalie Bennett, don't the Green
:29:23. > :29:29.party bears some responsibility for these floods? You have sided with
:29:30. > :29:35.the Environment Agency in the decision not to dredge rivers and
:29:36. > :29:39.that is one of the reason why these places have been flooded. Firstly I
:29:40. > :29:46.want to give my sympathy to everyone dealing with these floods. The
:29:47. > :29:54.homeowners, the farmers seeing sodden fields for weeks and weeks.
:29:55. > :29:58.We get that, we all have huge sympathy, particularly because so
:29:59. > :30:03.little seems to be done to help them. What is the answer to my
:30:04. > :30:08.question? I think there is strong evidence that dredging is not the
:30:09. > :30:15.answer. If you think about the flow of the river, where the pinch points
:30:16. > :30:20.are is things like bridges, weirs and towns. If you dredge the river
:30:21. > :30:24.in between those barriers, you just make the water faster to those
:30:25. > :30:29.points. The experts are saying that dredging is not the answer, it may
:30:30. > :30:33.be in particular cases, but you have to look at each river system on its
:30:34. > :30:37.own merits and very often the best way of dealing with this is working
:30:38. > :30:40.out ways to slow the watered down and make sure that people don't
:30:41. > :30:49.suffer unduly while you are doing that. The west of England
:30:50. > :30:52.agricultural Society, which I would venture knows more about the
:30:53. > :30:56.Somerset Levels than either of us, has said that without dredging, this
:30:57. > :31:00.was a disaster waiting to happen. The local drainage boards have been
:31:01. > :31:06.calling for years for dredging to be resumed. The National Farmers' Union
:31:07. > :31:09.has called for it, and the chairman of the West Sussex flood defences
:31:10. > :31:12.has called for more drainage, and he is a drainage engineer by
:31:13. > :31:17.profession. So I don't know where your experts are, but the experts on
:31:18. > :31:24.the ground am not the urban ones in London, seem to think this has not
:31:25. > :31:29.been caused, but made worse by the failure of the Environment Agency to
:31:30. > :31:31.continue to dredge. If you look at the example of the planning and
:31:32. > :31:37.climate change coalition, which is led by the town and country planning
:31:38. > :31:39.Association, who you would not describe as a group of radical
:31:40. > :31:45.greens, these people have said we have to look at how we deal with
:31:46. > :31:48.flooding in the future. But not in Somerset. These are the people
:31:49. > :31:52.currently being flooded, not somebody sitting in a quango office
:31:53. > :31:56.in London. They have asked for this to happen and it hasn't, and they
:31:57. > :32:02.are now flooded in definitely. We have to look at what is happening on
:32:03. > :32:06.a case-by-case basis. If you look at Germany, there are many cases there
:32:07. > :32:10.were, to deal with flooding, many farmers are paid to hold water on
:32:11. > :32:14.their land. Maybe we need to introduce those systems, because we
:32:15. > :32:20.have to protect farmland, but we also have to protect urban areas for
:32:21. > :32:28.safety. We saw a horrible flood in Wales were lines were endangered --
:32:29. > :32:33.where lives were endangered. That is the priority, to protect lives,
:32:34. > :32:37.property and farmland. Lives are endangered at the moment,
:32:38. > :32:42.particularly as this stagnant water turns toxic. And yet we are in a
:32:43. > :32:45.situation, again encouraged by the Greens and the lobbying Environment
:32:46. > :32:48.Agency, it says it does not want to dredge because dredging is
:32:49. > :32:54.expensive, yet it spends millions on a bird sanctuary. That is getting
:32:55. > :32:59.everything totally wrong. The government is getting everything one
:33:00. > :33:06.by cutting on flood defences. It has not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I
:33:07. > :33:14.don't know the details of that. But looking at the broader issue, we
:33:15. > :33:17.have to prepare for climate change. The government has slashed funding
:33:18. > :33:21.to the Environment Agency and has cut back on the number of staff
:33:22. > :33:24.available to deal with it and has removed the requirement on local
:33:25. > :33:31.councils to plan for climate change. These are all gambling the future of
:33:32. > :33:34.our lives and property and the future of our environment. Hasn t
:33:35. > :33:40.the high watermark of greenery now gone well past? You don't come out
:33:41. > :33:43.of the Somerset Levels with any great reputation. The UK government
:33:44. > :33:48.is now going to start fracking as quickly as it can. Brussels is
:33:49. > :33:54.loosening the CO2 obligations for 2030. The President of America is
:33:55. > :33:58.about to give the go-ahead to the keystone pipeline, a totemic issue
:33:59. > :34:03.for American greens, and your party is in a state of civil war in
:34:04. > :34:08.Brighton. It is over, isn't it? Absolutely not. We are seeing large
:34:09. > :34:16.amounts of extreme weather around the world. Any one event is whether,
:34:17. > :34:19.but we are seeing a lot of it and people are recognising that climate
:34:20. > :34:23.change is happening. If we are going to quote international experts, I
:34:24. > :34:27.can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN Secretary-General, not known as a
:34:28. > :34:32.radical green, and he said after the IPCC report came out that the heat
:34:33. > :34:34.is on and we must act. If you go to Christine Lagarde, head of the
:34:35. > :34:38.International Monetary Fund, again not a radical green, she was asked
:34:39. > :34:43.what kept her awake at night, and she said, we are not doing enough
:34:44. > :34:46.about climate change. So actually, people around the world are looking
:34:47. > :34:50.at what is happening around them are both people on the ground and people
:34:51. > :34:54.in high positions are saying we have to act on climate change. And in the
:34:55. > :35:00.case of Britain, that should absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry
:35:01. > :35:04.to interrupt, but I have evidence that you are planning a little
:35:05. > :35:08.career change. Don't go away. This is what happens when you let Nigel
:35:09. > :35:13.Farage present the weather. One thing leads to another and low and
:35:14. > :35:18.behold, the Sunday Politics now has a new traffic and travel reporter.
:35:19. > :35:24.Let's go back to Green Party leader, Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew It
:35:25. > :35:29.is easy out that, so let's start with our airports. I am pleased to
:35:30. > :35:35.say that Heathrow's third runway, Boris Island and all short-haul
:35:36. > :35:40.flights are, just like our arguments, well grounded. We suggest
:35:41. > :35:46.making or alternative arrangements, like a re-nationalised rail
:35:47. > :35:51.network, although it would be a glaring omission if we did not admit
:35:52. > :35:54.that that plan is currently being delayed by Labour Party foot
:35:55. > :36:00.dragging. Speaking of trains, we are hearing that high-speed two may well
:36:01. > :36:05.be derailing, or at least getting bogged down in political fog. One
:36:06. > :36:11.viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to say he is completely lost. Thanks
:36:12. > :36:15.for the update, Ed. You are not alone among political commuters
:36:16. > :36:20.Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes are causing major tailbacks across
:36:21. > :36:27.the South, apparently stretching all the way to Brussels. This does make
:36:28. > :36:37.driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs can, of course, just hop on their
:36:38. > :36:41.gravy train. The tree had a roundabout is blocked after reports
:36:42. > :36:46.of a political earthquake. It seems that a green unwound his beard to
:36:47. > :36:49.block a dodgy gas extractor. A motorist who turned out to be the
:36:50. > :36:55.environment minister object into the delay and was told to frack off as
:36:56. > :37:02.furious badgers demanded that he stopped moving the goalposts.
:37:03. > :37:07.Unregulated traffic in the city of London continues unchecked.
:37:08. > :37:10.Pedestrians should try to block bankers with sacks of loot rushing
:37:11. > :37:18.for the payments. But do beware the Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up
:37:19. > :37:24.the motorways. Although they are in a jam, or is it a fudge, we are
:37:25. > :37:27.happy to make way for them, as, like all refugees, we say they are
:37:28. > :37:35.welcome here in muesli green. That is the travel. Back to you, Andrew.
:37:36. > :37:40.Natalie, I think you make my point. You are now preparing a new career
:37:41. > :37:44.in traffic and travel. Well, I do believe in lifelong education and
:37:45. > :37:48.that was an example of it. We know you have had a tough time today to
:37:49. > :37:55.get to our studio. Thank you for the effort.
:37:56. > :37:58.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:37:59. > :38:16.minutes, we will have Good morning and welcome to the part
:38:17. > :38:21.of visual just for us here in the West. Flooding in Somerset has made
:38:22. > :38:25.national news all week, the government message has been far from
:38:26. > :38:29.clear. First, the military were coming and then they were not. Then
:38:30. > :38:33.David Cameron appeared to overrule his own minister who was mobbed on a
:38:34. > :38:40.visit. We will examine how the coalition is coping any crisis with
:38:41. > :38:45.a professional spin Doctor. Joining me this week are to aspiring
:38:46. > :38:50.parliamentarians, a Labour member hoping to unseat illiberal member in
:38:51. > :38:53.the West in 2015, and a Liberal Democrat who wants to date Wiltshire
:38:54. > :39:00.from the Conservatives. Welcome to you both. Let's start by talking
:39:01. > :39:05.about labour's plans to bid at the top rate of tax to 50p. With the Lib
:39:06. > :39:13.Dems support that? I will say that what Israeli
:39:14. > :39:17.important is that the economy works, and for that we have got to say
:39:18. > :39:21.Europe is the big issue, not really the top rate of tax. It is
:39:22. > :39:27.absolutely essential that we stay in Europe.
:39:28. > :39:32.Slightly off`piste, but why has Labour gone off on this one? Why is
:39:33. > :39:37.it so important when for 13 years they did not have a top rate of tax
:39:38. > :39:40.of 50p? Towards the end of the Liberal
:39:41. > :39:43.government we did introduce the top rate of tax, and I am fully
:39:44. > :39:49.supporting introducing its next year because this is about fairness. It
:39:50. > :39:53.is about reducing inequality and promoting equality, and this where
:39:54. > :39:59.those with the broadest shoulders take the greatest share.
:40:00. > :40:02.Is it just a slogan? It is not, it is about how we pay
:40:03. > :40:07.for our schools and hospitals, and those who are earning the most are
:40:08. > :40:11.not going to be taxed 50p on every penny, just those over ?150,000 If
:40:12. > :40:18.you are a millionaire, you're only going to be being top tax on
:40:19. > :40:22.850,000, I think they can cope. Roads, public transport, those
:40:23. > :40:25.things all need money and it has to come from somewhere.
:40:26. > :40:31.As she have a point? I Don Everly have a problem with that.
:40:32. > :40:34.Good! There is some worried by the
:40:35. > :40:37.Conservatives that the top rate of tax would lead to a lack of
:40:38. > :40:42.confidence in the economy. The real fear must be in terms of overseas
:40:43. > :40:47.investment what happens with Europe, and that is where the Conservatives
:40:48. > :40:52.are rather letting us all down. As we speak, people living on the
:40:53. > :40:55.Somerset Levels are grappling with the floods which are continuing to
:40:56. > :40:58.blight their lives. Afterlife complaints from locals and some
:40:59. > :41:00.terrible headlines in the national press, the Prime Minister took
:41:01. > :41:07.personal charge of the government's response. But like the floodwater,
:41:08. > :41:13.the criticism is not going away It was not meant to be like this.
:41:14. > :41:17.Why have you only started doing this now?
:41:18. > :41:21.When the Environment Secretary visited the Somerset Levels he was
:41:22. > :41:25.berated by angry locals. His plan, that there would soon be a plan
:41:26. > :41:30.proved to be short lived. It was washed away in Westminster by a
:41:31. > :41:37.deluge of calls for action. And area the size of Bristol
:41:38. > :41:41.underwater for a month. The severe flooding in the Somerset
:41:42. > :41:46.Levels is causing acute distress. The Prime Minister stepped in.
:41:47. > :41:51.Dredging will start as soon as it is practical, soon as the waters have
:41:52. > :41:54.started to come down. It was a slap down. He has completed
:41:55. > :41:57.change the approach of the government to what is going on down
:41:58. > :41:59.there, and all of a sudden we have seen the kind of urgency and
:42:00. > :42:02.intervention that could have happened weeks ago.
:42:03. > :42:05.Trying to seize the initiative again, the Minister cheered a
:42:06. > :42:11.meeting of the government's emergency Cobra meeting and called
:42:12. > :42:14.in the military. The Minister of defence and the
:42:15. > :42:18.Department of local government are discussing how we could deploy
:42:19. > :42:20.specialist vehicles. The next day some soldiers were
:42:21. > :42:25.originally brought before the cameras, to the bewilderment of
:42:26. > :42:28.locals. I think it is actually going to be a
:42:29. > :42:32.bit too late. We are managing quite well.
:42:33. > :42:36.Dare I say it is a bit over the top? We are managing.
:42:37. > :42:43.Amphibious vehicles were not needed. Road supplies had resumed to
:42:44. > :42:47.the village. Four weeks would have been stockpiled in the church. No
:42:48. > :42:51.local authorities were putting on more of a show, only big as
:42:52. > :42:56.conference only to see the military were not needed.
:42:57. > :42:59.We are very comfortable that with the civil contingencies we have in
:43:00. > :43:03.place and the resources we have we can manage this.
:43:04. > :43:09.One consolation for ministers, the media can misjudge things badly as
:43:10. > :43:14.when a Page three girl was brought to the area by the Sun newspaper.
:43:15. > :43:19.You are taking the make. This is not a zoo.
:43:20. > :43:24.It began with a torrent of headlines making sometimes uncomfortable
:43:25. > :43:30.reading for the government. This could run and run.
:43:31. > :43:33.If you are flowed so, our thoughts are with you. We did ask to speak to
:43:34. > :43:36.the Environment Secretary about his handling of the floods but he was
:43:37. > :43:41.not available. We can, however, mulled over the performance of the
:43:42. > :43:46.government this week with a man who trains in the art of crisis
:43:47. > :43:50.management. How do USS the government's handling of all this?
:43:51. > :43:55.I think they have taken a long time to work out of the actually had a
:43:56. > :43:58.crisis on their hands, and what we had last week was a knee jerk
:43:59. > :44:02.reaction to the media and local people.
:44:03. > :44:07.What is the one key thing that companies or governments ought to do
:44:08. > :44:10.when there is a crisis? Companies and governments need to
:44:11. > :44:13.understand that most crises that cause damage come from issues that
:44:14. > :44:16.are unaddressed, and it has become clear in last week that they failed
:44:17. > :44:22.to address the whole issue of dredging. At the beginning of this
:44:23. > :44:27.flood, at the beginning of the year, it was not a crisis because it was
:44:28. > :44:29.felt to be a natural disaster. Nobody can control the rain, not
:44:30. > :44:35.even David Cameron or the Liberal Democrats, it is rain, it is flood,
:44:36. > :44:39.it is a natural disaster. But now people are saying, maybe it was not
:44:40. > :44:42.a natural disaster, maybe what has gone wrong is the dredging. And that
:44:43. > :44:46.is what has turned the story into a crisis.
:44:47. > :44:49.How important is it to be seen to be doing something?
:44:50. > :44:53.It is very important, and important to be seen to be doing something
:44:54. > :44:57.quickly. Even afford your doing does not matter?
:44:58. > :45:01.You need to take some action. As you did at the beginning of this, you
:45:02. > :45:06.should your condolences, should some sympathy to the people in the
:45:07. > :45:09.floods. What happened this week when the environment Minster went there,
:45:10. > :45:14.he went and stood in front of some pumps, or less to say, look, we have
:45:15. > :45:18.done something. He should have been chatting to the people who were
:45:19. > :45:22.affected by this. Should some sympathy for them, and then taking
:45:23. > :45:30.some action. Brian, what did you make of the way
:45:31. > :45:33.the common's handled this? I'm actually water engineer in my
:45:34. > :45:38.real`life. I've spent a lot of time with Water Aid, and normally that is
:45:39. > :45:42.looking at supplying water rather than getting rid of it, but here, it
:45:43. > :45:51.really seems to be a problem that goes back 20 years. That's from when
:45:52. > :45:55.the dredging stopped, and it is crazy, when you look at the ecology
:45:56. > :46:03.of the area and the systems that are in place, they go back must to Roman
:46:04. > :46:06.times. It is a competitive drainage system
:46:07. > :46:10.they have got there, but what Martin was saying that the government needs
:46:11. > :46:14.to feel your pain. Do you think it did?
:46:15. > :46:18.I think in terms of what has been going on, they have formed a local
:46:19. > :46:24.task force to deal with it and called on people, although it may
:46:25. > :46:27.have been slow to get off the starting line, I think now they
:46:28. > :46:33.really are trying to work together properly with the locals.
:46:34. > :46:37.Thangam, will you impressed with David Cameron when he seized control
:46:38. > :46:40.this week? That showed just how out of touch
:46:41. > :46:46.with people he is. UBC from that clip that people actually in
:46:47. > :46:50.Somerset have taken control the situation themselves and look very
:46:51. > :46:55.fed up, it too little too late. They have been under water for weeks and
:46:56. > :46:57.has affected their lives, children's ability to go to school,
:46:58. > :47:02.but the people of Somerset have taken control. I think it is adding
:47:03. > :47:06.insult to injury to turn up a bit late and turn up with all sorts of
:47:07. > :47:09.different ideas. In the course of the last 17 days they have changed
:47:10. > :47:14.their minds and not looked decisive at all. It would not inspire
:47:15. > :47:17.confidence in me. It was very interesting that a
:47:18. > :47:23.minister went down a couple of weeks ago, the moment secretary went down
:47:24. > :47:26.and said we will come up with a plan in six weeks. There were some bad
:47:27. > :47:32.headlines in the Daily Mail this week, by Minister got hold of it and
:47:33. > :47:34.then things happen. It is the something must be done
:47:35. > :47:41.approach that worries me. Just being seen to do something without it
:47:42. > :47:45.being thoughtful. Actually, this was a preventable disaster. Rain is not
:47:46. > :47:50.preventable, but having contingency plans, that is something you should
:47:51. > :47:55.do. If you cut the Environment Agency, which is what David Cameron
:47:56. > :47:58.did very quickly in 2010, with Nick Clegg's help, if you cut the
:47:59. > :48:04.Environment Agency it will have consequences. We have seen those
:48:05. > :48:08.consequences this week, the Environment Agency doing their best,
:48:09. > :48:12.but they are struggling. What will the Prime Minister's spin
:48:13. > :48:16.doctors be advising him on this at the moment?
:48:17. > :48:19.We will probably say that this will go a quickly once the flood waters
:48:20. > :48:22.subside, but they then have to follow through with promises they
:48:23. > :48:27.have made. This is a typical unresolved issue that turned into a
:48:28. > :48:30.crisis. Too little and too late is what most of the people in Somerset
:48:31. > :48:34.are saying, it may not be too little, it certainly is too late.
:48:35. > :48:39.They should have been in the very beginning doing something. It is a
:48:40. > :48:42.typical example of politicians following the media. The media story
:48:43. > :48:49.at the beginning of this was, as we saw, it was a fun story and it has
:48:50. > :48:54.now turned into a serious story Thank you very much.
:48:55. > :48:58.It may be a British institution but the number of pubs closing down is
:48:59. > :49:03.rising at an alarming rate. Politicians blame the pub companies
:49:04. > :49:08.which on one third of our pubs. Landlords are being forced to buy
:49:09. > :49:15.beer at inflated prices. E`mail or click a landlord, as with
:49:16. > :49:17.over 14,000 other publicans, Nigel is pulling pints behind the bar
:49:18. > :49:22.owned by one of the big pub companies. Their leases are known as
:49:23. > :49:31.ties, and many are complaining that they are just too binding. Here is
:49:32. > :49:34.how it works . Republican guest only pub they could not otherwise
:49:35. > :49:40.afford. We should get some support from the pub company. In turn, that
:49:41. > :49:51.chicken must stop beers supplied by the company. That could be a mark`up
:49:52. > :49:55.of more than 50%. When a Wetherspoon is opened almost next door serving
:49:56. > :50:00.cheaper drink, this landlord was annoyed that an agreed discount on
:50:01. > :50:04.the beer was not renewed by his landlords. Anger at the system and
:50:05. > :50:09.ill`health has prodded him to retire.
:50:10. > :50:13.These big pub companies are bullies. They believe leaseholders
:50:14. > :50:17.and tenants because they know it might of hours that worked, the fact
:50:18. > :50:22.that we have to buy the beer from Punch, it is on flow lines, they
:50:23. > :50:31.know exactly what we are dispensing. We have to keep the beer
:50:32. > :50:37.at the correct temperature. To do that, the electricity bills are in
:50:38. > :50:42.the region of ?7,000 every year We probably buy or spend with Punch in
:50:43. > :50:47.the region of ?200,000 per year When you total out over 56 years, it
:50:48. > :50:53.is a lot of money. Punch taverns sent us this
:50:54. > :50:59.statement. " Punch complies with illegally
:51:00. > :51:04.binding code of practice which sets out what a tenant can expect from
:51:05. > :51:08.Punch. Then that is an objective or any tenant at a cost of ?200 to
:51:09. > :51:14.refer Punch to the industry's arbitration service. Today, Mr
:51:15. > :51:20.Warren has not chosen to take any specific grievance with us to that
:51:21. > :51:23.body. " complains over the beer tie are a common refrain, as are the
:51:24. > :51:26.cost of repairs and fixtures and fittings.
:51:27. > :51:32.But why would you landlords to undermine the business of one of its
:51:33. > :51:36.own tenants? The Campaign For Real Ale has its own theory.
:51:37. > :51:40.They are keen to turn assets into cash when they can. If there is an
:51:41. > :51:44.opportunity to turn a pub into a supermarket they will do so, as
:51:45. > :51:49.opposed to saying, what can we do to keep this as a viable business?
:51:50. > :51:52.The estimate that a local pub can contribute as much as ?100,000 a
:51:53. > :51:59.year to the local economy, but despite this, 26 pubs are set to
:52:00. > :52:04.close each week, and 57% of publicans earn less than ?10,00 per
:52:05. > :52:08.year. At this brewery, the past is
:52:09. > :52:12.celebrated. They are also keen not to repeat historic mistakes.
:52:13. > :52:19.Politicians are talking again of regulation three statutory code of
:52:20. > :52:27.practice. It could sever beer ties, meaning Ted Macleays can buy the
:52:28. > :52:32.beer on the market. I'm a bit nervous. There has been a
:52:33. > :52:37.fair bit of consultation. We have not seen what other people would put
:52:38. > :52:44.in stop Mike there could be some resistance. There is debate as to go
:52:45. > :52:47.around the table. If there is to be legislation we have to go back to
:52:48. > :52:49.what we were talking about earlier. If you push something through and
:52:50. > :52:59.put in what you're done, can cause a problem further down the road.
:53:00. > :53:03.But speed seems to be of the essence for a government that knows that pub
:53:04. > :53:06.politics plays well with voters Labour has tried to push for
:53:07. > :53:10.legislation this summer, but the coalition said it needed more time
:53:11. > :53:16.to sift through the response to its consultation. Vince Cable has
:53:17. > :53:20.likened a lot of the tight landlord to David against Goliath. He knows
:53:21. > :53:28.many more Davids make all time at the bar before this is resolved
:53:29. > :53:31.Johnny as is the Chief Executive of the British Beer And Pub
:53:32. > :53:37.Association. What do you make of pub landlords in
:53:38. > :53:43.tied establishment earning ?10, 00 per year?
:53:44. > :53:47.The tie is a wonderful way to run your own business. If you had to buy
:53:48. > :53:52.public properly cost you ?250,0 0. You could be running a tight pub for
:53:53. > :53:56.around ?30,000. Pub companies but huge investment, investment that
:53:57. > :54:03.anyone in the high Street, would love to have. It's about ?2 million
:54:04. > :54:07.per year. Specifically, some of the complains we're getting about people
:54:08. > :54:14.who took on long leases when the economic limit was very different,
:54:15. > :54:18.some of them also bought a premium, so they have a mortgage on top of
:54:19. > :54:21.what they are having to buy from the pub company.
:54:22. > :54:26.Body you say to the allegation that it is an abusive relationship, and
:54:27. > :54:30.you hold all the trump cards? I think it is a supportive
:54:31. > :54:33.relationship, and if we lost the tie, there is a real danger that
:54:34. > :54:38.many more pubs would close because they would not have the support of
:54:39. > :54:43.the benevolent landlord. You are a benevolent landlord which
:54:44. > :54:47.insists that you buy beer at one and a half times the price you can get
:54:48. > :54:51.it at the supermarket. The way it works is that you pay
:54:52. > :54:55.more for your wet rent. QPR in January, you haven't got the
:54:56. > :55:00.customers in January, you don't sell much beer. You haven't got the cost
:55:01. > :55:04.of the increase of costs in this month. In me, you will pay more for
:55:05. > :55:08.your beer budget and have lower rent.
:55:09. > :55:11.Wire summary landlord quitting if it is such a great deal?
:55:12. > :55:15.There are not many landlords quitting. Actually, there are more
:55:16. > :55:20.pubs closing that are independent and pubs that are tied. That is a
:55:21. > :55:23.fact. This year and every year for the last four years beer has been
:55:24. > :55:30.cheaper in tied pubs than an independent pubs.
:55:31. > :55:39.Gent`mac to, as she convinced you that regulation is not necessary? ``
:55:40. > :55:41.Thangam. The Labour Party has been really
:55:42. > :55:45.pleased to try to push the government to introduce legislation
:55:46. > :55:51.sooner rather than later. What would it entail?
:55:52. > :55:55.It would provide a place for disputes to be settled, and that
:55:56. > :56:00.would allow small landlords to be able to take on the pub company
:56:01. > :56:08.fairly and with an independent arbiter. It would also allow them to
:56:09. > :56:13.be able to have much more scope for negotiation. I think locking
:56:14. > :56:14.landlords in like that is unfair, that is why we are on the side of
:56:15. > :56:46.landlords who are trying to the thing I was told about recently,
:56:47. > :56:49.the beer orders from 1988 allowed pubs, even tied pubs, to have guest
:56:50. > :56:53.beers, and this seems to be something that either has been
:56:54. > :57:02.forgotten or certainly needs to be brought back.
:57:03. > :57:10.It is something that CAMRA are talking about.
:57:11. > :57:15.CAMRA allege that you are not fussed if people give up because then the
:57:16. > :57:19.building can be sold and turned into a supermarket and you can walk away
:57:20. > :57:25.with a profit. Is that fair? Absolutely not. It costs companies
:57:26. > :57:30.?40,000 if they even have to change a licensee. We're passionate about
:57:31. > :57:33.pubs and a great pubs out their Is statutory regedit would cost ?1
:57:34. > :57:37.million. We have a low`cost regulator at the moment, you can
:57:38. > :57:42.complain about anything. Who else on the high street can make those sorts
:57:43. > :57:47.of complaints? The beer orders were a complete disaster, we don't want
:57:48. > :57:50.to go back on them. If you legislate in haste you will have problems in
:57:51. > :57:54.the future. A lot of people say it was Labour's
:57:55. > :57:59.ban on smoking which caused much of the decline.
:58:00. > :58:03.Banning smoking in public places has improved the health of some of the
:58:04. > :58:06.thousands and millions of people, I will never regret the ban on
:58:07. > :58:10.smoking. It has helped smokers to give up, it does help children and
:58:11. > :58:15.other adults not to be damaged by passive smoking. Closing pubs is not
:58:16. > :58:18.directly to be deported a ban on smoking, however, Labour is trying
:58:19. > :58:23.to support pubs and I think it is astonishing that the Lib Dems and
:58:24. > :58:29.Tories voted against this. Charlotte Leslie did not even support this
:58:30. > :58:32.legislation. There was plenty of political news
:58:33. > :58:36.this week that it not involve the flooding in Somerset. Here is our
:58:37. > :58:39.round`up in 60 seconds. The Kingswood MP, Chris Skidmore,
:58:40. > :58:43.has called for tougher sentences for drivers who are repeatedly convicted
:58:44. > :58:48.of dangerous driving. A suspended sentence is an injustice that few
:58:49. > :58:51.can agree is acceptable. His comments followed the death of a
:58:52. > :58:55.couple who were killed when a driver on drugs crashed into them while
:58:56. > :58:58.they were out cycling. The West's biggest police force is
:58:59. > :59:03.to axe more than 130 office posts as part of a review. Avon and Somerset
:59:04. > :59:06.police said it was the biggest shake`up in the history of the
:59:07. > :59:10.force. It is trying to find ?1 million in savings next year. More
:59:11. > :59:14.than 700 fines were issued to parents in the West for taking the
:59:15. > :59:17.children out of school last autumn. The government is tightening up
:59:18. > :59:20.rules on allowing children out for holidays. Schools are calling on
:59:21. > :59:25.travel operators to offer cheaper deals. And the leader of Wiltshire
:59:26. > :59:29.Council has decided not to accept a rise in her allowances. Jane Scott
:59:30. > :59:41.said she had changed her mind about taking a 40% increase because the
:59:42. > :59:46.issue was overshadowing her work. Let's talk about taking children out
:59:47. > :59:52.of school and fining parents who do. Brian, do you agree with that?
:59:53. > :59:57.I think it should be up to the head, and it should be a debate between
:59:58. > :00:02.the headmaster and parents. If it is an educational holiday, there may be
:00:03. > :00:04.a good reason for doing that, but if it is just a matter of lying on the
:00:05. > :00:43.beach. . I think it is why that's job and
:00:44. > :00:49.should stay in schools the mac. And that's it from the West this
:00:50. > :00:52.week. My thanks to Thangam and Brian for taking part. You can keep
:00:53. > :00:56.up`to`date with the latest on the floods this week on your BBC local
:00:57. > :00:57.radio station, and if you wish to watch this programme again it is
:00:58. > :01:01.available on BBC iPlayer. Not a complete denial! Hopefully a
:01:02. > :01:17.Conservative mayor again. Not a good week for David Cameron on
:01:18. > :01:22.the tricky European front last week. President Hollande said he was not
:01:23. > :01:26.interested in major treaty reform for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron
:01:27. > :01:29.hopes to hold his in-out referendum. And the private member's bill to put
:01:30. > :01:34.that referendum on the statute bill was killed by Labour and Lib Dem
:01:35. > :01:41.peers in the Lords. James Wharton was the Tory MP behind the bill and
:01:42. > :01:46.he joins me now. What happens now? It is out of my hands what happens
:01:47. > :01:50.now, because Labour and the Liberal Democrats conspired in the Lords to
:01:51. > :01:54.kill off my bill. One of the options is for another private member to
:01:55. > :01:58.bring a bill forward when they have the next private member's bill at,
:01:59. > :02:01.and we can try again. The prime minister has indicated that he will
:02:02. > :02:08.support that. But whatever happens, it will be in the Conservative
:02:09. > :02:13.manifesto at the next election. Do you accept that cost this is Tory
:02:14. > :02:17.policy and not government policy that the government policy elite
:02:18. > :02:22.macro cannot bring forward a bill? That is the problem. The Liberal
:02:23. > :02:25.Democrats, despite having promised a referendum in their manifesto at the
:02:26. > :02:30.last election, now will not allow government time for a bill to
:02:31. > :02:34.enshrine that in law. That was why I brought it forward as a private
:02:35. > :02:37.member's bill. David Cameron and the Conservative Party through
:02:38. > :02:40.everything behind that. To many people's surprise, we got it through
:02:41. > :02:45.all the House of Commons stages Sadly, to their discredit, Labour
:02:46. > :02:50.and Liberal Democrat peers, doing the bidding of their masters in the
:02:51. > :02:54.Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do you accept that it is Conservative
:02:55. > :02:58.policy, but not government policy, that you could not use the
:02:59. > :03:01.Parliament act to get this through the Lords? That is not the case The
:03:02. > :03:06.Parliament act is clear that if a public bill passes through the House
:03:07. > :03:10.of Commons twice in one Parliamentary period, there is a
:03:11. > :03:14.certain amount of time that has to be between both bills being
:03:15. > :03:18.presented. There are some procedural steps to be overcome, but there is
:03:19. > :03:22.no legal reason why the Parliament act could not come into effect. I
:03:23. > :03:27.was talking about you not having a majority in this case. That remains
:03:28. > :03:30.to be seen. We saw previously that Labour and the Liberal Democrats
:03:31. > :03:35.sent enough people to frustrate its progress to make it as difficult as
:03:36. > :03:40.possible, but not huge numbers to vote against it. On a Friday, huge
:03:41. > :03:46.numbers of MPs do not attend normally. Getting that number might
:03:47. > :03:51.prove difficult. The Parliament act, which is a bit of an atomic bomb in
:03:52. > :03:55.constitutional terms, if that was used, they would turn up to vote
:03:56. > :04:01.against you. Is it not the case that after the countryside Alliance tried
:04:02. > :04:06.to involve the courts in the hunting ban that it was made clear that the
:04:07. > :04:11.Parliament act was not to be used for constitutional issues? I don't
:04:12. > :04:16.think we know how many would turn up and we don't know how they would
:04:17. > :04:19.vote. One of the things that has been revealed as I have gone through
:04:20. > :04:23.the process of getting this bill to get a referendum through the Commons
:04:24. > :04:26.is that there are big splits in the Labour Party. One of the reasons we
:04:27. > :04:30.did not see them turning up in large numbers to stop this bill from
:04:31. > :04:33.happening was that Ed Miliband knew that if he tried to lead his own MPs
:04:34. > :04:38.through the lobbies to block a bill, the only purpose of which is
:04:39. > :04:43.to let Britain decides to give people a say on membership of the
:04:44. > :04:47.union, a lot of his MPs may not have followed him. It is all fantasy
:04:48. > :04:52.politics anyway. The French president has made clear that he has
:04:53. > :04:58.no interest in treaty change this side of 2017. He would need a
:04:59. > :05:03.referendum as well . And he needs that like a hole and had. Merkel is
:05:04. > :05:06.not keen, as she is in coalition with the social Democrats. Without
:05:07. > :05:14.the French or the Germans, it will not happen, end of story. The policy
:05:15. > :05:18.is that we will try to negotiate on getting a better deal. I hear what
:05:19. > :05:22.you are saying, but I don't recognise it as reality. We have a
:05:23. > :05:25.strong bargaining position. But whatever the result of that
:05:26. > :05:30.negotiation, it will be put in an in-out vote to the Britain people.
:05:31. > :05:34.It is time people were allowed to decide. It has been over a
:05:35. > :05:37.generation since we last had a say. David Cameron has committed to
:05:38. > :05:41.delivering that referendum. The Conservative Party will have it in
:05:42. > :05:45.our next manifesto for the election. Whatever happens to my bill or any
:05:46. > :05:49.other of the bill that comes forward. If people want a
:05:50. > :05:56.referendum, the only party that can deliver that in British politics is
:05:57. > :06:01.the Conservatives. Let me bring the panel in. Nick, where is this going?
:06:02. > :06:03.It is clear to me and anyone who follows European politics that there
:06:04. > :06:06.is no appetite for major treaty change in the short run,
:06:07. > :06:12.particularly for the kind of major changes that Vista Cameron says he
:06:13. > :06:16.is going to get, and yet the Tories are talking about Europe again when
:06:17. > :06:19.they should be talking about the economy. And Francois Hollande is
:06:20. > :06:24.looking at 2017, the year we are meant to have this referendum. There
:06:25. > :06:28.will be a French presidential election going on, and Nicolas
:06:29. > :06:34.Sarkozy will be back in play by then. But James has an interesting
:06:35. > :06:39.point, which is that it is down to Angela Merkel. She would be more
:06:40. > :06:43.receptive to David Cameron's ideas of reform than people assume. She
:06:44. > :06:48.has looked over the edge at a Europe without the UK and said, that is not
:06:49. > :06:52.acceptable, and I am willing to pay a price, not any price, but a price
:06:53. > :06:57.to keep the UK in the European Union. And the French, because the
:06:58. > :07:01.UK and France are the only serious military powers in Europe, will
:07:02. > :07:07.eventually come to that position. So there is more support for David
:07:08. > :07:10.Cameron than people assume. The French are also not a strong
:07:11. > :07:19.position in terms of the euro and French economy. The Foreign Office
:07:20. > :07:29.seem a bit more optimistic about it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd
:07:30. > :07:32.once told me, we are winning the arguments on the single currency. Of
:07:33. > :07:36.course anything from the Foreign Office comes with a health warning,
:07:37. > :07:40.but if David Cameron had won a majority and was determined to
:07:41. > :07:45.renegotiate, he is in a strong position with Merkel. There is a
:07:46. > :07:48.possibility that the French could eventually be talked around. So it
:07:49. > :07:55.is not entirely bleak on that front for Cameron. When do the Tory party
:07:56. > :08:00.managers say, look, stop banging on about Europe again? The economy is
:08:01. > :08:04.going away. We still have an electoral mountain to climb. Let's
:08:05. > :08:09.just talk about that and not be divided. They should have done that
:08:10. > :08:15.some time ago. It is already too late. The Tories need a seven point
:08:16. > :08:20.lead in the polls to get image are tea. The way things are, that would
:08:21. > :08:24.require a huge change from where we are now . It is very unlikely to
:08:25. > :08:33.happen. So all this is happening in some bizarre imaginary space with
:08:34. > :08:38.wonderful rainbows and sunshine But we can detect the beginnings of a
:08:39. > :08:44.shift in the last couple of weeks. If you talk to Tory backbenchers,
:08:45. > :08:48.Douglas Carswell is now saying in public that it is time to stop the
:08:49. > :08:56.fighting. If they are to get even close to winning the election, they
:08:57. > :09:01.can't do it if they are all against each other. I don't think it is an
:09:02. > :09:05.imaginary space. It is likely that David Cameron will have the largest
:09:06. > :09:08.party in the election. If it is a hung parliament and it is the
:09:09. > :09:13.Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party, David Cameron
:09:14. > :09:16.will save to Nick Clegg we gave you an AV referendum, I am having this
:09:17. > :09:22.referendum. And it will be difficult for Nick to say no. Let me go back
:09:23. > :09:26.to Mr Wharton. You are going to get a referendum in the manifesto. Other
:09:27. > :09:31.than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it. So why don't you just banked that
:09:32. > :09:36.and get behind the leadership Institute causing endless problems
:09:37. > :09:40.and coming across as a Europe accessed, divided party? I am
:09:41. > :09:45.absolutely behind the leadership. David Cameron announced the policy I
:09:46. > :09:51.am trying to bring forward in this bill. It is in line with the speech
:09:52. > :09:57.he gave this time last year. But getting that commitment into law
:09:58. > :10:04.will help to kick-start the negotiation process and mean
:10:05. > :10:06.everyone will know where we stand. But whatever happens, the
:10:07. > :10:10.Conservatives are committed to delivering a referendum. And to
:10:11. > :10:13.address the point that we talk about Europe too much, that is not the
:10:14. > :10:20.case. We have a good message on the economy, on tackling immigration and
:10:21. > :10:26.reforming welfare. There is more to do, but this is also an important
:10:27. > :10:32.part of policy. But at a time when the economic news seems to be
:10:33. > :10:36.turning in your direction, you are talking about the European
:10:37. > :10:39.referendum. Your backbench colleagues are trying to change the
:10:40. > :10:44.Immigration Bill every which way. Dominic Rather is putting in an
:10:45. > :10:49.amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has been on this programme, putting in
:10:50. > :10:54.amendments that are clearly illegal. How is that helpful? The fact is
:10:55. > :10:56.that we are in a coalition, so there are areas of policy where
:10:57. > :11:03.Conservatives might want to go further and we are not able to do
:11:04. > :11:06.that. In other areas, we are delivering good reforms. But this is
:11:07. > :11:13.not a matter of going further. The mill 's amendment was clearly a
:11:14. > :11:17.contravention of the Treaty of Rome. That is where you get the headlines
:11:18. > :11:22.from. Some of your colleagues have a death wish? Would they rather have a
:11:23. > :11:27.Miliband government if the choice is an impure Cameron one instead? I
:11:28. > :11:32.don't think anyone in their right mind would rather have a Miliband
:11:33. > :11:36.government. Then why are they behaving that way? We have had some
:11:37. > :11:42.disagreements into the leak and debate within the party, but it was
:11:43. > :11:46.talked about on the panel just now. The Conservative Party is behind
:11:47. > :11:50.David Cameron and focused on winning the next election. Europe is one
:11:51. > :11:56.part of that. We have policies in a range of areas, but we are getting
:11:57. > :12:02.back on the right track. Thank you for being patient with us.
:12:03. > :12:06.Is this ghost story going to go somewhere? Mr Laws is talking
:12:07. > :12:12.through surrogates at the moment, but there is a strategy by the Lib
:12:13. > :12:19.Dems make these differential points now. I think it is fantastic
:12:20. > :12:23.coalition sports and entertaining, but in terms of out there, it has
:12:24. > :12:28.almost no traction whatsoever. I don't think any voters know who
:12:29. > :12:30.Baroness Morgan is and it sounds like one but politicians shouting at
:12:31. > :12:35.another bunch of politicians about their ability to give each other
:12:36. > :12:40.jobs. There is a larger point about the way Michael Gove runs his
:12:41. > :12:44.government. He is notoriously a very polite man surrounded by Rottweiler
:12:45. > :12:47.is, his advisers. He has made enemies of a lot of people in the
:12:48. > :12:52.media, and some of that will come back on him in the next 18 months.
:12:53. > :12:56.We shall see if Mr Laws himself sticks his head above the parapet.
:12:57. > :13:01.That is it for this week. The Daily Politics is on throughout the week
:13:02. > :13:05.at midday on BBC Two, except on Wednesdays, when we are on at
:13:06. > :13:08.11:30am. I will be back next week at the same time. Remember, if it is
:13:09. > :13:15.Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.