:00:37. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:47. > :00:50.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:51. > :00:53.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:54. > :00:58.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:59. > :01:01.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:02. > :01:12.They could be heading And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:13. > :01:15.A survey shows that we are hn a confident
:01:16. > :01:19.which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political
:01:20. > :01:25.move designed to silence his critics.
:01:26. > :01:29.And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the
:01:30. > :01:34.business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.
:01:35. > :01:38.But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest
:01:39. > :01:45.and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,
:01:46. > :01:52.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:53. > :01:54.Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been
:01:55. > :01:58.unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the
:01:59. > :02:03.rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister
:02:04. > :02:08.spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the
:02:09. > :02:12.Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence
:02:13. > :02:16.campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when
:02:17. > :02:21.the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were
:02:22. > :02:24.going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that
:02:25. > :02:26.campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in
:02:27. > :02:37.Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.
:02:38. > :02:43.Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no
:02:44. > :02:51.campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have
:02:52. > :02:56.got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have
:02:57. > :03:01.got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we
:03:02. > :03:06.are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the
:03:07. > :03:10.possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think
:03:11. > :03:14.that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it
:03:15. > :03:17.against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a
:03:18. > :03:21.detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England
:03:22. > :03:25.Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would
:03:26. > :03:29.not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the
:03:30. > :03:33.permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is
:03:34. > :03:37.such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with
:03:38. > :03:43.it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the
:03:44. > :03:47.force of argument is very much against those of us who want to
:03:48. > :03:51.remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the
:03:52. > :03:55.day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a
:03:56. > :03:59.deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is
:04:00. > :04:05.nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 0
:04:06. > :04:08.years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in
:04:09. > :04:12.Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the
:04:13. > :04:19.UK. That is perfectly plausible isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is
:04:20. > :04:22.simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.
:04:23. > :04:26.What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials
:04:27. > :04:30.saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of
:04:31. > :04:37.England Wales, Northern Ireland any more than it is in the interests of
:04:38. > :04:44.people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not
:04:45. > :04:51.change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?
:04:52. > :04:55.I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe
:04:56. > :04:59.Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish
:05:00. > :05:03.Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not
:05:04. > :05:07.sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from
:05:08. > :05:12.Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have
:05:13. > :05:16.not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the
:05:17. > :05:28.questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too
:05:29. > :05:30.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:31. > :05:34.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:35. > :05:38.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:39. > :05:44.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes
:05:45. > :05:49.there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing
:05:50. > :05:56.a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which
:05:57. > :06:00.actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come
:06:01. > :06:03.September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to
:06:04. > :06:08.say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of
:06:09. > :06:14.the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll
:06:15. > :06:19.said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the
:06:20. > :06:24.don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you
:06:25. > :06:28.yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act
:06:29. > :06:34.together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,
:06:35. > :06:38.to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists
:06:39. > :06:42.could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the
:06:43. > :06:46.United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the
:06:47. > :06:50.polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,
:06:51. > :07:06.they think this will not happen It can happen. I have got to tell
:07:07. > :07:08.everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an
:07:09. > :07:11.enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their
:07:12. > :07:13.disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in
:07:14. > :07:18.football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what
:07:19. > :07:22.is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in
:07:23. > :07:29.place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.
:07:30. > :07:36.Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know
:07:37. > :07:42.what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to
:07:43. > :07:47.blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there
:07:48. > :07:53.will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.
:07:54. > :07:57.But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the
:07:58. > :08:01.deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls
:08:02. > :08:04.which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite
:08:05. > :08:09.rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down
:08:10. > :08:13.the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year not
:08:14. > :08:17.just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy
:08:18. > :08:22.negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving
:08:23. > :08:26.places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen
:08:27. > :08:29.then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts
:08:30. > :08:34.about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising
:08:35. > :08:37.that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow
:08:38. > :08:44.Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary
:08:45. > :08:48.union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in
:08:49. > :08:51.a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear
:08:52. > :08:57.submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,
:08:58. > :09:01.probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think
:09:02. > :09:05.whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If
:09:06. > :09:10.the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the
:09:11. > :09:13.currency because it is not in London's interests to have a
:09:14. > :09:17.rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not
:09:18. > :09:28.done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is
:09:29. > :09:30.different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on
:09:31. > :09:35.the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without
:09:36. > :09:39.any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if
:09:40. > :09:44.the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except
:09:45. > :09:50.it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go
:09:51. > :09:53.down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the
:09:54. > :09:57.financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would
:09:58. > :10:00.rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary
:10:01. > :10:04.of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much
:10:05. > :10:07.money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major
:10:08. > :10:12.parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is
:10:13. > :10:15.bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think
:10:16. > :10:20.that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex
:10:21. > :10:24.Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big
:10:25. > :10:31.establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my
:10:32. > :10:38.football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no
:10:39. > :10:43.vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left
:10:44. > :10:47.which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex
:10:48. > :10:54.Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding
:10:55. > :10:57.from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being
:10:58. > :11:01.incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not
:11:02. > :11:04.want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of
:11:05. > :11:07.million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a
:11:08. > :11:11.bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's
:11:12. > :11:18.very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.
:11:19. > :11:27.High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six
:11:28. > :11:34.energy companies account for 95 of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem
:11:35. > :11:39.said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price
:11:40. > :11:41.rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets
:11:42. > :11:46.authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken
:11:47. > :11:50.up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica
:11:51. > :11:54.made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if
:11:55. > :11:59.you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare
:12:00. > :12:03.margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a
:12:04. > :12:09.surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to
:12:10. > :12:14.historically low levels in 2016 according to Ofgem. Normally at
:12:15. > :12:19.around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that
:12:20. > :12:23.could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light
:12:24. > :12:29.switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me
:12:30. > :12:37.now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak
:12:38. > :12:42.winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2
:12:43. > :12:47.next winter or the winter after We will keep the lights on, that is for
:12:48. > :12:51.clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.
:12:52. > :12:55.The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day
:12:56. > :13:03.one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been
:13:04. > :13:07.billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now
:13:08. > :13:12.heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have
:13:13. > :13:17.been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,
:13:18. > :13:20.we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are
:13:21. > :13:25.showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done
:13:26. > :13:31.enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate
:13:32. > :13:34.huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline
:13:35. > :13:38.investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.
:13:39. > :13:43.None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter
:13:44. > :13:50.or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,
:13:51. > :13:58.or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.
:13:59. > :14:02.It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing
:14:03. > :14:06.anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are
:14:07. > :14:11.able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are
:14:12. > :14:17.connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we
:14:18. > :14:23.get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.
:14:24. > :14:29.You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last
:14:30. > :14:34.July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would
:14:35. > :14:40.not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on
:14:41. > :14:45.schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a
:14:46. > :14:52.single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the
:14:53. > :14:58.ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do
:14:59. > :15:02.an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of
:15:03. > :15:05.interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.
:15:06. > :15:09.There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that
:15:10. > :15:13.can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take
:15:14. > :15:18.and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.
:15:19. > :15:34.We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision
:15:35. > :15:36.will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North
:15:37. > :15:39.America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed
:15:40. > :15:48.plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a
:15:49. > :15:55.problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from
:15:56. > :15:58.2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be
:15:59. > :16:02.so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was
:16:03. > :16:06.cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've
:16:07. > :16:10.known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of
:16:11. > :16:13.their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to
:16:14. > :16:21.increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are
:16:22. > :16:24.closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you
:16:25. > :16:28.have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are
:16:29. > :16:32.coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased
:16:33. > :16:35.the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under
:16:36. > :16:39.the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the
:16:40. > :16:47.beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are
:16:48. > :16:52.historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a
:16:53. > :16:57.huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins
:16:58. > :17:03.between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is
:17:04. > :17:07.costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People
:17:08. > :17:11.have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a
:17:12. > :17:15.short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a
:17:16. > :17:16.long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between
:17:17. > :17:40.nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between
:17:41. > :17:48.on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has
:17:49. > :17:56.increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the
:17:57. > :18:00.report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been
:18:01. > :18:05.working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we
:18:06. > :18:09.have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on
:18:10. > :18:15.if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but
:18:16. > :18:19.demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to
:18:20. > :18:23.off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,
:18:24. > :18:27.and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the
:18:28. > :18:31.Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks
:18:32. > :18:34.for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around
:18:35. > :18:40.for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to
:18:41. > :18:43.expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into
:18:44. > :18:51.haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,
:18:52. > :18:56.dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at
:18:57. > :19:06.the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range
:19:07. > :19:11.of power companies who are building a new power station and want to
:19:12. > :19:14.build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100
:19:15. > :19:18.billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore
:19:19. > :19:22.capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the
:19:23. > :19:27.Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to
:19:28. > :19:32.expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We
:19:33. > :19:37.have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is
:19:38. > :19:42.happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say
:19:43. > :19:46.it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we
:19:47. > :19:51.have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at
:19:52. > :19:55.independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to
:19:56. > :19:58.invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore
:19:59. > :20:01.wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only
:20:02. > :20:06.countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker
:20:07. > :20:11.picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an
:20:12. > :20:16.investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.
:20:17. > :20:21.Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,
:20:22. > :20:24.only one started under your watch for the others were done under
:20:25. > :20:29.Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled
:20:30. > :20:32.back from further investment including new offshore wind
:20:33. > :20:37.investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020
:20:38. > :20:41.anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,
:20:42. > :20:45.the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I
:20:46. > :20:52.capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20,
:20:53. > :20:55.so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have
:20:56. > :21:00.no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.
:21:01. > :21:05.Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones
:21:06. > :21:09.you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a
:21:10. > :21:14.short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan
:21:15. > :21:17.auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed
:21:18. > :21:23.plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term
:21:24. > :21:27.plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be
:21:28. > :21:31.built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's
:21:32. > :21:36.a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more
:21:37. > :21:39.expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap
:21:40. > :21:45.energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices
:21:46. > :21:52.is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You
:21:53. > :22:03.have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.
:22:04. > :22:12.All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low
:22:13. > :22:17.Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the
:22:18. > :22:20.last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys
:22:21. > :22:25.prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the
:22:26. > :22:28.Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the
:22:29. > :22:33.time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas
:22:34. > :22:36.could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by
:22:37. > :22:42.the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per
:22:43. > :22:51.megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.
:22:52. > :22:54.Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,
:22:55. > :22:58.Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is
:22:59. > :23:02.an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power
:23:03. > :23:07.plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices
:23:08. > :23:12.except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations
:23:13. > :23:16.paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper
:23:17. > :23:21.carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's
:23:22. > :23:25.very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the
:23:26. > :23:29.pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in
:23:30. > :23:34.May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.
:23:35. > :23:40.You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure
:23:41. > :23:46.is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the
:23:47. > :23:53.first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.
:23:54. > :23:59.If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their
:24:00. > :24:05.partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about
:24:06. > :24:11.lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than
:24:12. > :24:16.the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are
:24:17. > :24:20.targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that
:24:21. > :24:25.that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say
:24:26. > :24:29.that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few
:24:30. > :24:34.years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a
:24:35. > :24:39.single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s
:24:40. > :24:44.what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in
:24:45. > :24:47.technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in
:24:48. > :24:56.mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were
:24:57. > :25:01.clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put
:25:02. > :25:05.the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on
:25:06. > :25:11.investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:12. > :25:15.guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't
:25:16. > :25:20.that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two
:25:21. > :25:24.separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply
:25:25. > :25:29.retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale
:25:30. > :25:33.side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are
:25:34. > :25:39.comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to
:25:40. > :25:42.do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:43. > :25:50.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:51. > :25:55.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever
:25:56. > :25:59.happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the
:26:00. > :26:03.verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going
:26:04. > :26:05.nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press
:26:06. > :26:08.officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains
:26:09. > :26:12.some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had
:26:13. > :26:15.a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats
:26:16. > :26:18.in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest
:26:19. > :26:21.party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite
:26:22. > :26:33.concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote
:26:34. > :26:36.increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as
:26:37. > :26:39.anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and
:26:40. > :26:43.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is
:26:44. > :26:46.that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,
:26:47. > :26:57.electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.
:26:58. > :26:59.For a number of years they were performing better than the UK
:27:00. > :27:03.Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.
:27:04. > :27:06.The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other
:27:07. > :27:11.groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't
:27:12. > :27:14.go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party
:27:15. > :27:20.was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have
:27:21. > :27:23.known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won
:27:24. > :27:26.12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour
:27:27. > :27:35.council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing
:27:36. > :27:38.concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different
:27:39. > :27:42.nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over
:27:43. > :27:48.everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I
:27:49. > :27:54.would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here
:27:55. > :27:58.When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a
:27:59. > :28:03.second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find
:28:04. > :28:06.non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even
:28:07. > :28:11.though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white
:28:12. > :28:15.working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent
:28:16. > :28:22.everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On
:28:23. > :28:27.behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,
:28:28. > :28:31.that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local
:28:32. > :28:39.Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we
:28:40. > :28:42.could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the
:28:43. > :28:45.council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.
:28:46. > :28:49.But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour
:28:50. > :28:53.vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the
:28:54. > :29:00.same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years
:29:01. > :29:05.ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing
:29:06. > :29:09.around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and
:29:10. > :29:13.stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now
:29:14. > :29:18.it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.
:29:19. > :29:23.If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not
:29:24. > :29:27.in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.
:29:28. > :29:31.I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say
:29:32. > :29:35.in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist
:29:36. > :29:40.but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of
:29:41. > :29:43.UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:44. > :29:52.party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is
:29:53. > :29:54.closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose
:29:55. > :30:11.amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were
:30:12. > :30:15.thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his
:30:16. > :30:18.appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP
:30:19. > :30:28.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:29. > :30:34.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:35. > :30:38.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:39. > :30:41.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:42. > :30:45.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:46. > :30:53.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:54. > :30:57.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:58. > :31:03.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:04. > :31:09.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:10. > :31:13.very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:14. > :31:20.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country
:31:21. > :31:25.faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European
:31:26. > :31:35.elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were
:31:36. > :31:40.denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take
:31:41. > :31:45.place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer
:31:46. > :31:52.movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL
:31:53. > :31:59.is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not
:32:00. > :32:03.a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took
:32:04. > :32:09.a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this
:32:10. > :32:14.stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless
:32:15. > :32:17.promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on
:32:18. > :32:23.this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.
:32:24. > :32:28.Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will
:32:29. > :32:33.probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across
:32:34. > :32:39.Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I
:32:40. > :32:57.reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and
:32:58. > :33:02.Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are
:33:03. > :33:06.on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I
:33:07. > :33:11.was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party
:33:12. > :33:15.did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and
:33:16. > :33:18.Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was
:33:19. > :33:24.true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader
:33:25. > :33:30.who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy
:33:31. > :33:36.No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is
:33:37. > :33:42.irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs
:33:43. > :33:46.and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the
:33:47. > :33:55.European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose
:33:56. > :34:01.seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far
:34:02. > :34:12.right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin
:34:13. > :34:17.appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is
:34:18. > :34:24.part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with
:34:25. > :34:28.them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am
:34:29. > :34:33.perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible
:34:34. > :34:37.reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when
:34:38. > :34:44.will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely
:34:45. > :34:52.for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and
:34:53. > :34:57.self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to
:34:58. > :35:03.Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in
:35:04. > :35:07.Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just
:35:08. > :35:13.an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is
:35:14. > :35:18.completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the
:35:19. > :35:23.polls, performance at elections the problem with your leadership is you
:35:24. > :35:27.are now going the way of the National front, heading for
:35:28. > :35:32.oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the
:35:33. > :35:37.problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years
:35:38. > :35:42.ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not
:35:43. > :35:46.around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a
:35:47. > :35:50.prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.
:35:51. > :35:54.That will lead to huge problems Only the British National Party are
:35:55. > :35:59.prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:36:00. > :36:04.this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how
:36:05. > :36:09.irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New
:36:10. > :36:14.Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would
:36:15. > :36:18.turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they
:36:19. > :36:22.put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of
:36:23. > :36:25.bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.
:36:26. > :36:28.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:29. > :36:44.Politics Scotland. Coming up here in Politics Scotland. Coming up here in
:36:45. > :36:52.Welcome to the part of the show just for us here in the West. Thhs week,
:36:53. > :36:59.will you have enough to livd on when you retire. We revealed the results
:37:00. > :37:04.of a survey. And from pensions to students. We go back to University
:37:05. > :37:11.and joined the students union. These people are campaigning, but most of
:37:12. > :37:13.their friends won't vote. Why are we not interested in democracy
:37:14. > :37:21.anymore? On the show, two men, Lord Tom
:37:22. > :37:25.King, who served as Defence Secretary under Margaret Th`tcher,
:37:26. > :37:32.and the Liberal Democrat MP Steve Webb, who is the pensions mhnister.
:37:33. > :37:37.We will first talk about thd situation in the Crimea. A lot of
:37:38. > :37:44.people talking about how we need to reverse the spending cuts. What you
:37:45. > :37:49.think? It is a tough time now. I think that the plans that wd have
:37:50. > :37:58.made are sensible. As long `s the reserves can back up the arly.
:37:59. > :38:06.Would Vladimir Putin have done what he has done if you were in charge?
:38:07. > :38:17.Crimea is a very special case. I saw were millions of Russians wdre
:38:18. > :38:24.remembered for defending, adages important to see it, not as an
:38:25. > :38:31.important part of a campaign to take on the west. We need to be ready and
:38:32. > :38:36.make clear what will happen if he woke `` went into the rest of the
:38:37. > :38:43.Ukraine. Would you agree with that? Would you fight for Crimea?
:38:44. > :38:49.I think we need to remember that we are no longer the Wolves's
:38:50. > :38:57.policeman. `` the policeman of the world. We do not have an empire
:38:58. > :39:03.anymore. We need to look at cyber attacks. I think going back on
:39:04. > :39:08.spending cuts would be a mistake. Are you worried about retirdment?
:39:09. > :39:16.The government have decided to sort out our pensions. A survey shows the
:39:17. > :39:21.challenge. 1000 people betwden 0 and 65 were survey. 30% werd worried
:39:22. > :39:25.about their financial securhty in retirement. The figure was higher
:39:26. > :39:30.for those in their 30s and those in lower paid jobs.
:39:31. > :39:37.We'll be pensions revolution change that?
:39:38. > :39:43.When the government announcdd changes to the pension systdm,
:39:44. > :39:48.encouraging the newly retirdd to buy a new car was probably what they
:39:49. > :39:58.were not expecting. The image they preferred was of the state becoming
:39:59. > :40:03.less nanny driven. When the Chancellor talked `bout
:40:04. > :40:10.rolling down the state, it went down well. There is a patronising view
:40:11. > :40:14.that pensions cannot be trusted with their own pension. I reject that.
:40:15. > :40:19.People who have worked hard and saved hard all their lives should be
:40:20. > :40:25.trusted with their own finances That is what we will now do. Trust
:40:26. > :40:30.the people. At the moment, everyone is saving
:40:31. > :40:36.into a contribution pension, can take 25% of the pot as a tax`free
:40:37. > :40:43.lump sum. With the rest of the money, most people have to buy an
:40:44. > :40:49.annuity, which provides a monthly income until death. The average
:40:50. > :40:56.pension pot is ?36,000. Frol April 2016, most people will not have to
:40:57. > :41:01.buy an annuity, most may usd it to pay off their mortgage. Thex may be
:41:02. > :41:09.taxed. But many people do not have a pension. Like this woman, who works
:41:10. > :41:14.with the elderly. I have no pension at all. I have not even thotght
:41:15. > :41:20.about it. I have not always worked full`time. You do not think about
:41:21. > :41:26.the pension. I was married `nd I was relying on my husband's pension
:41:27. > :41:33.From this week, that is changing. She and other staff will be put into
:41:34. > :41:39.pension schemes unless they opt out. Experts are telling thdm more.
:41:40. > :41:47.Your employer will contribute, the taxman will contribute.
:41:48. > :41:52.Two years ago, enrolment began with big firms. Now this measure is being
:41:53. > :41:59.expanded and Helen is happy. All we heard was that everyone will
:42:00. > :42:04.be enrolled automatically. We were thinking that we have no choice
:42:05. > :42:10.about this. But now it has been explained to us, it seems rdally
:42:11. > :42:14.good. It seems a good option. For the same reasons that wd never
:42:15. > :42:20.started saving, that it is `ll too complicated, will hopefully mean
:42:21. > :42:24.that once we put in a pension, we will stay there. We will put people
:42:25. > :42:31.in the right place, they will start saving for retirement.
:42:32. > :42:38.Maybe not a new car now, but perhaps something more expensive on
:42:39. > :42:43.retirement. Brian Hill is an independent
:42:44. > :42:47.financial adviser. He is here to help us about pensions. But first,
:42:48. > :42:53.we will talk to the Minister. ?36,000 is the average penshon. What
:42:54. > :42:58.with that lie if you had to buy an investment?
:42:59. > :43:05.A simple rule is that for ?0000 in your pot, you get ?1 a week. See you
:43:06. > :43:11.would get ?36 per week for ` pension. It is not enough for most
:43:12. > :43:18.people. That is why we are doing what you saw in the story, Helen had
:43:19. > :43:24.no pension, she may never h`ve one into one. She automatically got put
:43:25. > :43:30.into one, she would have to opt out. That is the way that it works.
:43:31. > :43:34.If it is ?36,000 or more, you might as well take the money, go for a
:43:35. > :43:39.cruise around the world and then worry about things.
:43:40. > :43:45.We are trying to give peopld a choice. The state pension h`s been
:43:46. > :43:51.simplified. It will be just above means testing. If that is all you
:43:52. > :43:58.want to live on, that is fine. The pension is being set above the
:43:59. > :44:02.benefit level, but the basic level will get you clear of the bdnefits,
:44:03. > :44:07.and then you can choose whether to spend it throughout your retirement
:44:08. > :44:14.or early on. But it will be your choice.
:44:15. > :44:17.You are from a generation of final salary pension schemes. Is ht sad
:44:18. > :44:25.that our young people are bding denied that? One of the big worries
:44:26. > :44:32.is how poor the annuities work, because with the interest r`tes the
:44:33. > :44:36.whole reward now which used to be much higher, it is a major problem
:44:37. > :44:42.now that we face. When the country was much poorer,
:44:43. > :44:48.now we are a rich country and we cannot give people these pensions.
:44:49. > :44:55.One of the things that we are talking about which is excellent is
:44:56. > :45:03.making people have a pension. It was classic in the clip that thd woman
:45:04. > :45:08.had not been able to do so xet, like many people.
:45:09. > :45:12.In broad terms, many of my colleagues are very happy that there
:45:13. > :45:20.is more flexibility with pensions and taking money from it. The worry
:45:21. > :45:26.that we have is the implementation. We are concerned to see durhng the
:45:27. > :45:30.Budget that you mentioned that people would no longer have to buy
:45:31. > :45:36.an annuity. That has been the case for 20 years. For those unddr 7 , it
:45:37. > :45:42.applied for everyone. That hs old news.
:45:43. > :45:46.Yes, but as the Chancellor was trying to do, he was trying to
:45:47. > :45:53.simplify the message. Most people did not have the option, if they
:45:54. > :45:59.already had a pension pot to do this.
:46:00. > :46:05.We support the flexibility with financial advice. The idea that you
:46:06. > :46:09.can provide in people 's holes to help people get high qualitx
:46:10. > :46:15.guidance would not hit the lark at all. Most appeal that `` most people
:46:16. > :46:19.that I deal with have three pensions. So if you have all of
:46:20. > :46:27.these different advisers giving you different advice. The answer is as
:46:28. > :46:35.the consult patients of the government said, it has to be high
:46:36. > :46:39.quality advice from people who are qualified. There are a lot of people
:46:40. > :46:45.around. Should this be factored in?
:46:46. > :46:50.People do need help, and thdre are different factors for that. Everyone
:46:51. > :46:56.should have the right for free independent advice, with soleone who
:46:57. > :47:04.talks you through the basics. You then have to go through the choices.
:47:05. > :47:08.People make the decisions incorrectly and then they c`nnot get
:47:09. > :47:11.away from them. Why do we not all have the same
:47:12. > :47:16.pension and then you make your own provision after that? We ard trying
:47:17. > :47:22.to move in that direction whth the state pension, so there is one
:47:23. > :47:28.simple state pension. But wd have built on history, that businesses
:47:29. > :47:35.have given the pensions. Swdeping thataway, we may need to silplify,
:47:36. > :47:38.but we do not want to have several different pensions. So now xour
:47:39. > :47:45.pension will go with you whdn you change jobs.
:47:46. > :47:49.The key problem is the effect on benefits as well. People will start
:47:50. > :47:56.losing their benefits from the pension reforms.
:47:57. > :48:02.From how we feel from getting older, to the concerns of young people
:48:03. > :48:08.David Blunkett was talking to young people this week, saying th`t we
:48:09. > :48:11.should be concerned about the levels of apathy. Students say that they
:48:12. > :48:17.are interested in politics, but are being ignored.
:48:18. > :48:24.You don't often see this on the Westminster Trail. It is a flash
:48:25. > :48:30.mob, designed to get the vote out for the Bristol University tnion
:48:31. > :48:41.elections. But for all the shouting, bribes
:48:42. > :48:49.and... Vote for women. And the weirdness, more and more of
:48:50. > :48:57.today's young are not voting. I have never voted. You have never voted?
:48:58. > :49:02.Many sympathise with a cert`in comedian whose argument agahnst
:49:03. > :49:10.voting has been watched 10 lillion times. It is not that I am not
:49:11. > :49:15.voting out of apathy, it is that I am exhausted from the lies of the
:49:16. > :49:21.political class that have bden going on for generations and has reached
:49:22. > :49:25.fever pitch, where there is a despondent underclass who wdre not
:49:26. > :49:32.represented. The headache for politicians is he
:49:33. > :49:37.may have a point. In 2010, 60 5 of the public voted. A recent survey
:49:38. > :49:43.showed that if a general eldction was held tomorrow, only 41% of
:49:44. > :49:49.people would attend. And in young people, that is only 12%. Wd decided
:49:50. > :49:55.to get to the bottom of all of this by setting up our own stall.
:49:56. > :50:00.They seem untrustworthy. I think a lot of people our age are rdally
:50:01. > :50:08.cynical. We do not trust thd politicians.
:50:09. > :50:13.Hearing the fact that, as a result, people are worse off than they were
:50:14. > :50:18.before is breeding mistrust in not believing in people. When you look
:50:19. > :50:22.at the Budget that came out, it was focused on the older generation
:50:23. > :50:28.So, I think from the point of view of our generation, we listen when
:50:29. > :50:34.people say the idea is that they will put forward. We hear that we
:50:35. > :50:41.are not being included. Some of the MPs are on Twitter, but
:50:42. > :50:44.not any of my local MPs. So they are not being creative in making
:50:45. > :50:51.themselves relevant. It seemed to be more teachers than
:50:52. > :50:54.students who came to hear the Home Secretary talking about apathy. He
:50:55. > :51:02.said it was the fault of thd Coalition Government. Peopld say
:51:03. > :51:07.that maybe we should have compulsory voting like in Australia, btt then
:51:08. > :51:11.they say that a lot of people vote with their feet. When there is a
:51:12. > :51:17.coalition, people are concerned about what change we shall get. I
:51:18. > :51:22.don't want is to have a coalition again. Nobody knows what thdy will
:51:23. > :51:30.get. When they get it, it is not what they voted for.
:51:31. > :51:38.So how do you in gauge the xoung and the poor people? I think we have got
:51:39. > :51:42.to speaking a language that people understand, use more social media.
:51:43. > :51:49.One of the biggest turnout hs that we had was in 1950 and that was not
:51:50. > :51:55.an exciting election, but are `` mattered. People have to know that
:51:56. > :51:59.when they vote, it matters. This is a polling station lhke you
:52:00. > :52:04.have never seen before. There is a tablet on which you can cast your
:52:05. > :52:12.vote. And why not have a chocolate while you are in the blues? But even
:52:13. > :52:17.here, they think that the ttrnout will store below. `` while xou are
:52:18. > :52:24.in the voting booth. There hs the fear that people may never vote if
:52:25. > :52:30.they do not vote now. Here is the vice president of
:52:31. > :52:39.education for the student union White can students not be bothered
:52:40. > :52:45.to vote? In any election? In general elections, I think we are
:52:46. > :52:53.in a negative feedback loop. Young people are not voting, so the things
:52:54. > :52:56.that matter to them are not taken seriously. It is important to look
:52:57. > :53:03.at the first years of this Parliament, people raised the
:53:04. > :53:08.university fees and took aw`y the education maintenance allow`nce
:53:09. > :53:14.Why are they not angry and protesting? There are not a
:53:15. > :53:19.political party who are putting forward things that appeal to young
:53:20. > :53:27.people. They do not offer a different vision.
:53:28. > :53:33.Students in Bristol, people have a very nice life. Is it that they have
:53:34. > :53:39.never had it so good and thdy do not feel they need to vote? No, I think
:53:40. > :53:45.it is a conscious decision. People look at the politicians and ask if
:53:46. > :53:50.they represent them. They do not come up with anything at all.
:53:51. > :53:58.You concerned that young people are not interested in politics? I am a
:53:59. > :54:04.bad person to ask, because H never got involved in politics until later
:54:05. > :54:09.in life. It was when I was running a factory and we had nine different
:54:10. > :54:13.unions trying to run the factory and having an extremely difficult time.
:54:14. > :54:18.That was the big issue of the time and that is why I opt into politics.
:54:19. > :54:23.I think that different issuds bring people in at different times. It is
:54:24. > :54:27.nice if people do get involved, but I do not think it is new.
:54:28. > :54:33.It is something that has bedn very important for me during the years
:54:34. > :54:40.that I have been an MP, is being as accessible at as I can with the
:54:41. > :54:43.people who want to contact le. I talk to people on Twitter and on
:54:44. > :54:49.Facebook, asking them what hs on their mind.
:54:50. > :54:55.There is an issue with the Liberal Democrats, with students, students
:54:56. > :55:01.who perhaps were trying to vote against student fees, you got into
:55:02. > :55:05.power and you did do it. So what is the point? I think that if we had
:55:06. > :55:15.our time again, we would do things differently. One of the points that
:55:16. > :55:19.David Blunkett made was abott apathy and communication. Parties need to
:55:20. > :55:25.work together to go into thd elections, saying what they will do
:55:26. > :55:34.and what they will stick to. You have to do that before the dlection.
:55:35. > :55:38.I still don't think that anx of the political parties at the molent are
:55:39. > :55:43.really putting forward a strong offer for young people.
:55:44. > :55:49.So why would they not be interested in young people? This is wh`t I mean
:55:50. > :55:54.about a negative feedback loop. Because young people are not voting,
:55:55. > :55:58.there is almost a cynical calculation that the people that you
:55:59. > :56:01.need to focus policy on are not young people.
:56:02. > :56:08.Who are getting all the bendfits? The old people? I think olddr people
:56:09. > :56:13.are being looked after bettdr than younger people and I think people
:56:14. > :56:20.who own property and are more likely to vote for the government.
:56:21. > :56:24.Yes, when you say not making a good offer for young people, the most
:56:25. > :56:30.important thing for peoples in university is that they will have
:56:31. > :56:34.the possibility of a job. Is he right when you say th`t
:56:35. > :56:39.politicians are more interested in older people? It is not for older
:56:40. > :56:45.people that we have to turn the economy around. There are now
:56:46. > :56:48.starting to be far more job opportunities. You are the future
:56:49. > :56:54.and we have to turn that cotntry around will stop good thing is,
:56:55. > :56:59.although it is not offered to young people, about a student grants, the
:57:00. > :57:04.key thing is that what you `re looking and hoping for is the chance
:57:05. > :57:09.of a good opportunity career in the future. That is what we havd to do
:57:10. > :57:12.for all your colleagues and young people in this country. Most
:57:13. > :57:19.importantly, it is starting to happen.
:57:20. > :57:24.Now we will look back at thd political week in 60 seconds.
:57:25. > :57:27.On Thursday, the funeral was held for one of the West's polithcal
:57:28. > :57:33.giants. Hundreds gathered to remember Tony Benn, who served as
:57:34. > :57:39.Bristol MP for over 30 years. The Red Flag was played as his coffin
:57:40. > :57:42.left the church. On last week's programme, wd
:57:43. > :57:45.reported on rumours that thd government would relax its ban on
:57:46. > :57:53.fox hunting. It came from f`rmers whose land was being attackdd by
:57:54. > :57:58.hunters. `` attacked by foxds. This week, they got the answer. That
:57:59. > :58:02.letter has been received and has been considered, but I regrdt to say
:58:03. > :58:05.that I don't think there will be government agreement to go forward.
:58:06. > :58:08.This empty and expensive buhlding in Taunton may finally have a tenant.
:58:09. > :58:15.The regional fire control cdntre was built in 2007, but never usdd. A
:58:16. > :58:18.deal is being struck to rent it out. And yesterday, the wedding bells
:58:19. > :58:21.finally rang out for this h`ppy couple. They were the first in
:58:22. > :58:30.Bristol to tie the knot aftdr the law was changed to allow sale`sex
:58:31. > :58:38.marriage. Yesterday was quite a day for gay
:58:39. > :58:46.weddings. Would you go to a gay wedding if you
:58:47. > :58:51.were invited? Only if they were close friends. We have all had
:58:52. > :59:00.difficulties over this issud. I would not refuse, but I havd never
:59:01. > :59:10.been introduced yesterday. `` I would not be very enthtsiasm.
:59:11. > :59:20.And what about you? You votdd in favour. I think that we will accept
:59:21. > :59:26.that marriage is equal and that two people who love each other should be
:59:27. > :59:30.able to call it marriage. Next week, we will hear abott how
:59:31. > :59:33.businesses feel about leaving Europe. For now, it is back to
:59:34. > :59:35.London. boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.
:59:36. > :59:43.Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.
:59:44. > :59:53.Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP
:59:54. > :59:56.finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin
:59:57. > :59:59.with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London
:00:00. > :00:03.about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs
:00:04. > :00:06.back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are
:00:07. > :00:10.falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National
:00:11. > :00:13.front in France is that they are building on decades of successful
:00:14. > :00:18.that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I
:00:19. > :00:23.think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics So
:00:24. > :00:32.they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly
:00:33. > :00:36.few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does
:00:37. > :00:43.seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but
:00:44. > :00:47.in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty
:00:48. > :00:53.far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local
:00:54. > :00:59.elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties
:01:00. > :01:03.prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream
:01:04. > :01:07.parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a
:01:08. > :01:10.council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is
:01:11. > :01:14.because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions
:01:15. > :01:19.in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of
:01:20. > :01:26.the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and
:01:27. > :01:31.left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot
:01:32. > :01:39.of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was
:01:40. > :01:47.here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and
:01:48. > :01:54.EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention
:01:55. > :01:59.that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act
:02:00. > :02:05.together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.
:02:06. > :02:09.I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes
:02:10. > :02:12.from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the
:02:13. > :02:19.difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front
:02:20. > :02:28.Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they
:02:29. > :02:34.were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200
:02:35. > :02:48.they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far
:02:49. > :02:52.right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.
:02:53. > :02:56.Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further
:02:57. > :03:09.across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a
:03:10. > :03:15.much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she
:03:16. > :03:18.will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will
:03:19. > :03:25.always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone
:03:26. > :03:30.for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential
:03:31. > :03:34.election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far
:03:35. > :03:38.right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.
:03:39. > :03:42.She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes
:03:43. > :03:48.from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who
:03:49. > :03:52.would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current
:03:53. > :03:57.president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties
:03:58. > :04:01.have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP
:04:02. > :04:05.are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at
:04:06. > :04:11.issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are
:04:12. > :04:16.quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes
:04:17. > :04:20.from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer
:04:21. > :04:25.for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are
:04:26. > :04:28.rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they
:04:29. > :04:33.become part of the system that people were voting against in the
:04:34. > :04:37.first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour
:04:38. > :04:41.Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday
:04:42. > :04:46.Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you
:04:47. > :04:51.are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the
:04:52. > :04:56.Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I
:04:57. > :05:00.have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record
:05:01. > :05:06.briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the
:05:07. > :05:13.mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been
:05:14. > :05:20.a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.
:05:21. > :05:27.There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and
:05:28. > :05:31.they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit
:05:32. > :05:34.still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the
:05:35. > :05:40.coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary
:05:41. > :05:43.changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.
:05:44. > :05:50.What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this
:05:51. > :05:54.has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a
:05:55. > :05:59.very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and
:06:00. > :06:04.then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The
:06:05. > :06:07.British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party
:06:08. > :06:13.political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people
:06:14. > :06:16.from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a
:06:17. > :06:22.bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being
:06:23. > :06:27.unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining
:06:28. > :06:31.characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a
:06:32. > :06:35.lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the
:06:36. > :06:38.budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the
:06:39. > :06:42.signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.
:06:43. > :06:48.The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has
:06:49. > :06:54.the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price
:06:55. > :06:58.freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these
:06:59. > :07:02.energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for
:07:03. > :07:05.that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up
:07:06. > :07:12.with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student
:07:13. > :07:15.tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price
:07:16. > :07:19.freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the
:07:20. > :07:26.Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming
:07:27. > :07:34.the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick
:07:35. > :07:39.through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in
:07:40. > :07:45.2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what
:07:46. > :07:49.campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the
:07:50. > :07:54.scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be
:07:55. > :07:58.winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was
:07:59. > :08:04.because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87
:08:05. > :08:07.or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What
:08:08. > :08:11.they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government
:08:12. > :08:15.because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or
:08:16. > :08:19.February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of
:08:20. > :08:25.animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must
:08:26. > :08:29.be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological
:08:30. > :08:35.differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how
:08:36. > :08:40.little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have
:08:41. > :08:45.outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he
:08:46. > :08:50.is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There
:08:51. > :08:56.was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And
:08:57. > :09:04.Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions
:09:05. > :09:09.is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those
:09:10. > :09:12.two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not
:09:13. > :09:17.done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed
:09:18. > :09:22.Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with
:09:23. > :09:26.the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the
:09:27. > :09:31.debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
:09:32. > :09:35.We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s
:09:36. > :09:43.remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.
:09:44. > :09:51.I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...
:09:52. > :09:58.Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with
:09:59. > :10:07.you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the
:10:08. > :10:13.drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is
:10:14. > :10:20.simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I
:10:21. > :10:26.don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the
:10:27. > :10:32.facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better
:10:33. > :10:42.here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great
:10:43. > :10:47.not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.
:10:48. > :10:53.Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this
:10:54. > :10:57.week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate
:10:58. > :11:04.for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the
:11:05. > :11:08.other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult
:11:09. > :11:12.argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he
:11:13. > :11:16.distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just
:11:17. > :11:20.closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU
:11:21. > :11:25.immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away
:11:26. > :11:30.from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us
:11:31. > :11:36.to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his
:11:37. > :11:40.reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.
:11:41. > :11:46.I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage
:11:47. > :11:50.would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public
:11:51. > :11:59.favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question
:12:00. > :12:05.is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to
:12:06. > :12:11.that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a
:12:12. > :12:15.binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on
:12:16. > :12:18.opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg
:12:19. > :12:23.needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very
:12:24. > :12:29.well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he
:12:30. > :12:34.said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to
:12:35. > :12:36.talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had
:12:37. > :12:42.made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do
:12:43. > :12:45.not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,
:12:46. > :12:49.it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or
:12:50. > :12:52.without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and
:12:53. > :12:58.also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an
:12:59. > :13:05.hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but
:13:06. > :13:09.Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal
:13:10. > :13:14.with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has
:13:15. > :13:18.honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.
:13:19. > :13:22.That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime
:13:23. > :13:26.every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1
:13:27. > :13:33.o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.