:00:32. > :00:36.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:37. > :00:42.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:43. > :00:45.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:46. > :00:47.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:48. > :00:57.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:58. > :00:58.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:00:59. > :01:09.In the West, he said he would run commentators.
:01:10. > :01:13.In the West, he said he would run the greenest government ever, but
:01:14. > :01:16.after controversy over fracking and nuclear power, have
:01:17. > :01:19.newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not
:01:20. > :01:25.impartial about informing people of local services.
:01:26. > :01:28.So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next
:01:29. > :01:31.thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections
:01:32. > :01:33.Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives
:01:34. > :01:36.in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of
:01:37. > :01:39.MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and
:01:40. > :01:50.Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.
:01:51. > :01:52.In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the
:01:53. > :02:02.elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.
:02:03. > :02:05.And that privilege goes to Syed Before that, though, here's a quick
:02:06. > :02:11.reminder of what all the fuss is about.
:02:12. > :02:15.The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on
:02:16. > :02:20.Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in
:02:21. > :02:20.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73
:02:21. > :02:25.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the
:02:26. > :02:32.vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are
:02:33. > :02:36.751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The
:02:37. > :02:41.European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners
:02:42. > :02:47.and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and
:02:48. > :02:50.the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price
:02:51. > :03:00.caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food
:03:01. > :03:04.regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.
:03:05. > :03:08.Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our
:03:09. > :03:14.relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have
:03:15. > :03:17.a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out
:03:18. > :03:21.referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot
:03:22. > :03:26.Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative
:03:27. > :03:31.MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,
:03:32. > :03:38.really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.
:03:39. > :03:42.Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe
:03:43. > :03:45.vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,
:03:46. > :03:49.fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing
:03:50. > :03:53.patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian
:03:54. > :03:58.roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting
:03:59. > :04:04.with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal
:04:05. > :04:09.Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah
:04:10. > :04:14.Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are
:04:15. > :04:19.about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.
:04:20. > :04:24.Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to
:04:25. > :04:28.help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that
:04:29. > :04:32.bills are brought down for good Labour believes in reform in Europe,
:04:33. > :04:36.but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain s
:04:37. > :04:42.prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put
:04:43. > :04:50.British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick
:04:51. > :04:54.O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an
:04:55. > :04:56.era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project
:04:57. > :05:01.designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old
:05:02. > :05:09.hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people
:05:10. > :05:14.European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed
:05:15. > :05:20.out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.
:05:21. > :05:23.That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.
:05:24. > :05:29.Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the
:05:30. > :05:32.selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock
:05:33. > :05:37.the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We
:05:38. > :05:44.can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain
:05:45. > :05:46.wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power
:05:47. > :05:54.and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain
:05:55. > :05:57.leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.
:05:58. > :06:00.We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an
:06:01. > :06:08.example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.
:06:09. > :06:11.Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip
:06:12. > :06:16.to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think
:06:17. > :06:21.of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European
:06:22. > :06:24.Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David
:06:25. > :06:31.Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,
:06:32. > :06:37.he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside
:06:38. > :06:41.him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I
:06:42. > :06:49.gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our
:06:50. > :06:52.supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to
:06:53. > :06:58.change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a
:06:59. > :07:01.referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no
:07:02. > :07:06.idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer
:07:07. > :07:12.that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United
:07:13. > :07:16.States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the
:07:17. > :07:21.referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no
:07:22. > :07:24.confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read
:07:25. > :07:27.negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at
:07:28. > :07:35.the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of
:07:36. > :07:40.demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to
:07:41. > :07:44.leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not
:07:45. > :07:51.changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to
:07:52. > :07:58.perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a
:07:59. > :08:03.say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was
:08:04. > :08:08.deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.
:08:09. > :08:13.Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why
:08:14. > :08:19.can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First
:08:20. > :08:25.of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no
:08:26. > :08:29.apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of
:08:30. > :08:33.Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and
:08:34. > :08:36.business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they
:08:37. > :08:39.probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees
:08:40. > :08:43.in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is
:08:44. > :08:48.necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron
:08:49. > :08:56.says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity
:08:57. > :09:00.rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out
:09:01. > :09:05.vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there
:09:06. > :09:10.was a proposal to change powers Why wait? This is based on a series of
:09:11. > :09:14.reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent
:09:15. > :09:19.about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them
:09:20. > :09:21.forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic
:09:22. > :09:29.backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable
:09:30. > :09:33.to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed
:09:34. > :09:40.Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.
:09:41. > :09:43.He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be
:09:44. > :09:52.a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will
:09:53. > :09:57.have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg
:09:58. > :10:01.gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the
:10:02. > :10:05.Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can
:10:06. > :10:12.say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,
:10:13. > :10:16.you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that
:10:17. > :10:20.is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this
:10:21. > :10:24.morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster
:10:25. > :10:28.for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick
:10:29. > :10:35.Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that
:10:36. > :10:39.is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is
:10:40. > :10:44.essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the
:10:45. > :10:47.EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative
:10:48. > :10:53.voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all
:10:54. > :11:01.over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or
:11:02. > :11:06.out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote
:11:07. > :11:11.for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country it
:11:12. > :11:15.may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.
:11:16. > :11:20.We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,
:11:21. > :11:26.our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we
:11:27. > :11:30.not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to
:11:31. > :11:33.immigration. We have been open to people across the world for
:11:34. > :11:38.centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to
:11:39. > :11:42.pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are
:11:43. > :11:46.three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,
:11:47. > :11:50.and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,
:11:51. > :11:54.and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that
:11:55. > :11:57.only this week the office for National said that they did not
:11:58. > :12:02.collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra
:12:03. > :12:06.people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size
:12:07. > :12:12.of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over
:12:13. > :12:18.the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I
:12:19. > :12:24.accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In
:12:25. > :12:30.the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the
:12:31. > :12:33.EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have
:12:34. > :12:38.to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute
:12:39. > :12:44.positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I
:12:45. > :12:48.will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David
:12:49. > :12:50.Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they
:12:51. > :12:55.really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of
:12:56. > :13:01.thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see
:13:02. > :13:04.now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control
:13:05. > :13:09.and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours And
:13:10. > :13:14.that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would
:13:15. > :13:18.leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of
:13:19. > :13:25.Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are
:13:26. > :13:39.you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here
:13:40. > :13:42.today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and
:13:43. > :13:52.work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are
:13:53. > :13:54.wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with
:13:55. > :13:59.countries with similar living standards to us. France, the
:14:00. > :14:02.Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to
:14:03. > :14:15.join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of
:14:16. > :14:19.which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of
:14:20. > :14:22.free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm
:14:23. > :14:30.saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million
:14:31. > :14:33.British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right
:14:34. > :14:37.to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.
:14:38. > :14:41.You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants
:14:42. > :14:44.have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than
:14:45. > :14:51.they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses
:14:52. > :14:56.were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim
:14:57. > :15:02.benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that
:15:03. > :15:10.they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for
:15:11. > :15:14.more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A
:15:15. > :15:21.spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and
:15:22. > :15:26.Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party
:15:27. > :15:30.that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept
:15:31. > :15:35.it is a mistake and I apologise We make a firm commitment for new EU
:15:36. > :15:39.states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the
:15:40. > :15:42.Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration
:15:43. > :15:48.was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over
:15:49. > :15:54.again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,
:15:55. > :15:59.Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2
:16:00. > :16:05.million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you
:16:06. > :16:11.didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The
:16:12. > :16:16.Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is
:16:17. > :16:21.trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't
:16:22. > :16:26.count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for
:16:27. > :16:31.people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the
:16:32. > :16:37.habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't
:16:38. > :16:40.come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the
:16:41. > :16:45.country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say
:16:46. > :16:48.it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and
:16:49. > :16:52.multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They
:16:53. > :16:56.are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality
:16:57. > :17:00.control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.
:17:01. > :17:06.In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big
:17:07. > :17:15.businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool
:17:16. > :17:22.place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to
:17:23. > :17:25.Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think
:17:26. > :17:30.Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their
:17:31. > :17:37.backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might
:17:38. > :17:41.not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often
:17:42. > :17:45.come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it
:17:46. > :17:51.represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative
:17:52. > :17:54.Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it
:17:55. > :17:58.character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther
:17:59. > :18:02.and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics
:18:03. > :18:08.between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk
:18:09. > :18:11.time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have
:18:12. > :18:14.trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade
:18:15. > :18:19.deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United
:18:20. > :18:23.States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in
:18:24. > :18:27.favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a
:18:28. > :18:32.moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We
:18:33. > :18:36.have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants
:18:37. > :18:41.coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.
:18:42. > :18:49.How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.
:18:50. > :18:53.Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout
:18:54. > :18:57.in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs
:18:58. > :19:02.spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we
:19:03. > :19:06.undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we
:19:07. > :19:11.speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the
:19:12. > :19:16.Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening
:19:17. > :19:19.peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come
:19:20. > :19:27.together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With
:19:28. > :19:31.Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the
:19:32. > :19:35.sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling
:19:36. > :19:39.Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour
:19:40. > :19:43.doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows
:19:44. > :19:46.someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening
:19:47. > :19:50.peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they
:19:51. > :19:55.admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how
:19:56. > :20:00.Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We
:20:01. > :20:08.don't admire Putin as a leader. . Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage
:20:09. > :20:11.said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies
:20:12. > :20:17.Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly
:20:18. > :20:22.but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while
:20:23. > :20:26.carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin
:20:27. > :20:30.over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire
:20:31. > :20:35.what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy
:20:36. > :20:40.is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,
:20:41. > :20:46.and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to
:20:47. > :20:52.keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign
:20:53. > :20:57.Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this
:20:58. > :21:01.issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that
:21:02. > :21:06.Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless
:21:07. > :21:11.foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very
:21:12. > :21:19.important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention
:21:20. > :21:24.in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.
:21:25. > :21:32.Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign
:21:33. > :21:37.up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP
:21:38. > :21:42.opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was
:21:43. > :21:49.against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal
:21:50. > :21:54.on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.
:21:55. > :21:59.We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other
:22:00. > :22:04.people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin
:22:05. > :22:09.is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have
:22:10. > :22:13.to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and
:22:14. > :22:20.in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,
:22:21. > :22:23.who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is
:22:24. > :22:29.important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said
:22:30. > :22:34.that the idea of an EU Army was "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not
:22:35. > :22:39.true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and
:22:40. > :22:41.controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European
:22:42. > :22:48.Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have
:22:49. > :22:51."deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal
:22:52. > :22:56.Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is
:22:57. > :23:00.mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we
:23:01. > :23:04.must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an
:23:05. > :23:08.awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We
:23:09. > :23:13.don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role
:23:14. > :23:17.for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.
:23:18. > :23:23.You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of
:23:24. > :23:29.dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common
:23:30. > :23:33.quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so
:23:34. > :23:37.they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a
:23:38. > :23:41.European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those
:23:42. > :23:44.jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the
:23:45. > :23:50.Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since
:23:51. > :23:54.the start of the fist world war Remember that Europe was set up to
:23:55. > :23:58.try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on
:23:59. > :24:01.Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries
:24:02. > :24:06.in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to
:24:07. > :24:11.keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the
:24:12. > :24:15.Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,
:24:16. > :24:22.retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse
:24:23. > :24:26.retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers
:24:27. > :24:29.-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign
:24:30. > :24:35.Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I
:24:36. > :24:39.quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David
:24:40. > :24:43.Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than
:24:44. > :24:47.Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in
:24:48. > :24:50.the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times
:24:51. > :24:54.when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to
:24:55. > :24:59.cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are
:25:00. > :25:04.not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear
:25:05. > :25:09.that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.
:25:10. > :25:15.Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through
:25:16. > :25:18.the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from
:25:19. > :25:23.the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and
:25:24. > :25:28.not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of .. ?
:25:29. > :25:31.I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is
:25:32. > :25:34.the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we
:25:35. > :25:38.work with our European partners sometimes we work with our
:25:39. > :25:44.non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work
:25:45. > :25:50.together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country
:25:51. > :25:56.about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't
:25:57. > :26:03.the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts The
:26:04. > :26:08.trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our
:26:09. > :26:12.expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have
:26:13. > :26:17.actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but
:26:18. > :26:22.unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to
:26:23. > :26:28.cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies
:26:29. > :26:34.I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any
:26:35. > :26:40.other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes We
:26:41. > :26:45.voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups
:26:46. > :26:49.haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.
:26:50. > :26:54.Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.
:26:55. > :26:58.You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we
:26:59. > :27:04.don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your
:27:05. > :27:07.attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn
:27:08. > :27:11.up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,
:27:12. > :27:16.UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they
:27:17. > :27:21.didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party
:27:22. > :27:25.decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP
:27:26. > :27:31.representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me
:27:32. > :27:38.saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are
:27:39. > :27:42.quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord
:27:43. > :27:48.and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't
:27:49. > :27:53.you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were
:27:54. > :27:58.jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back
:27:59. > :28:02.?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about
:28:03. > :28:06.getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a
:28:07. > :28:11.secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do
:28:12. > :28:16.wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People
:28:17. > :28:20.who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and
:28:21. > :28:25.that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the
:28:26. > :28:28.allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up
:28:29. > :28:32.when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of
:28:33. > :28:38.using it for parliamentary work Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We
:28:39. > :28:43.were the first British political party to have independent audits of
:28:44. > :28:50.our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.
:28:51. > :28:52.The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the
:28:53. > :28:57.Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my
:28:58. > :29:00.own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been
:29:01. > :29:05.charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot
:29:06. > :29:10.lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We
:29:11. > :29:14.had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking
:29:15. > :29:20.ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people
:29:21. > :29:25.aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply We
:29:26. > :29:28.can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a
:29:29. > :29:33.Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say
:29:34. > :29:39.they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have
:29:40. > :29:45.burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.
:29:46. > :29:51.Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU s
:29:52. > :29:57.financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the
:29:58. > :30:03.financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that
:30:04. > :30:07.all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at
:30:08. > :30:10.the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge
:30:11. > :30:14.of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get
:30:15. > :30:18.enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal
:30:19. > :30:22.Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George
:30:23. > :30:27.Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is
:30:28. > :30:32.properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do
:30:33. > :30:36.that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will
:30:37. > :30:41.sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about
:30:42. > :30:46.?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1.
:30:47. > :30:51.billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.
:30:52. > :30:55.I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to
:30:56. > :30:59.ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our
:31:00. > :31:02.money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led
:31:03. > :31:06.Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to
:31:07. > :31:15.have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...
:31:16. > :31:23.Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate He
:31:24. > :31:27.is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to
:31:28. > :31:30.help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want
:31:31. > :31:34.the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party
:31:35. > :31:40.and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour
:31:41. > :31:47.victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the
:31:48. > :31:52.future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice
:31:53. > :31:56.Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the
:31:57. > :32:04.commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,
:32:05. > :32:08.if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the
:32:09. > :32:13.fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has
:32:14. > :32:16.led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world It
:32:17. > :32:19.is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about
:32:20. > :32:24.the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner
:32:25. > :32:28.for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common
:32:29. > :32:33.agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make
:32:34. > :32:40.Europe more democratic and open But against the rise of Brazil and
:32:41. > :32:45.China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more
:32:46. > :32:50.action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?
:32:51. > :32:55.No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional
:32:56. > :33:00.matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe
:33:01. > :33:07.progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We
:33:08. > :33:12.need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the
:33:13. > :33:16.EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on
:33:17. > :33:20.that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because
:33:21. > :33:28.the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In
:33:29. > :33:36.some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not
:33:37. > :33:39.sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is
:33:40. > :33:46.a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on
:33:47. > :33:51.the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want
:33:52. > :33:56.to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in
:33:57. > :33:59.national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big
:34:00. > :34:07.challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a
:34:08. > :34:13.good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did
:34:14. > :34:16.not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a
:34:17. > :34:22.success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,
:34:23. > :34:29.the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are
:34:30. > :34:33.not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not
:34:34. > :34:37.on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the
:34:38. > :34:42.future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners
:34:43. > :34:46.with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious I'd
:34:47. > :34:51.tell you what, can I just say.. Would we be Norway? We would be
:34:52. > :34:57.stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the
:34:58. > :35:01.Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our
:35:02. > :35:05.enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the
:35:06. > :35:09.economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest
:35:10. > :35:14.exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and
:35:15. > :35:20.services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you
:35:21. > :35:24.something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day
:35:25. > :35:30.after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody
:35:31. > :35:34.from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about
:35:35. > :35:38.goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have
:35:39. > :35:45.to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let
:35:46. > :35:53.me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not
:35:54. > :35:56.looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get
:35:57. > :36:06.anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your
:36:07. > :36:09.irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the
:36:10. > :36:12.reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve
:36:13. > :36:16.anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the
:36:17. > :36:19.doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a
:36:20. > :36:23.sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not
:36:24. > :36:29.pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we
:36:30. > :36:32.could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we
:36:33. > :36:37.would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But
:36:38. > :36:43.overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not
:36:44. > :36:47.sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform
:36:48. > :36:52.but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.
:36:53. > :36:59.Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking
:37:00. > :37:07.outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an
:37:08. > :37:12.inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are
:37:13. > :37:18.putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to
:37:19. > :37:21.have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I
:37:22. > :37:26.think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg
:37:27. > :37:29.will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.
:37:30. > :37:32.It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say
:37:33. > :37:35.goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics
:37:36. > :37:45.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, the
:37:46. > :37:48.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty Good afternoon to you and wdlcome to
:37:49. > :37:51.the later edition of the Sunday Politics here in the West Country.
:37:52. > :37:54.Coming up, we will examine the Government's promised to be the
:37:55. > :37:58.greenest on record. The Prile Minister went to the Arctic to show
:37:59. > :38:01.just how green he was beford the last election, but after backing
:38:02. > :38:06.fracking and going nuclear hn Somerset, his opponents clahm it was
:38:07. > :38:10.just green wash. Our guests this afternoon are the Liberal Ddmocrat
:38:11. > :38:15.MP Tessa Munt and Molly Scott Cato who is the Green candidate hn the
:38:16. > :38:21.European elections. More from them in a moment. Let's turn our
:38:22. > :38:24.attention to trust in polithcians. On the same day that Maria Liller
:38:25. > :38:28.resigned from Cabinet over her expenses, a Bristol MP was `lso in
:38:29. > :38:33.hot water over her parliamentary paperwork. The Conservative
:38:34. > :38:35.Charlotte Leslie failed to record the nation Star constituencx
:38:36. > :38:44.association in the register of members' interests. `` faildd to
:38:45. > :38:46.record donations. Charlotte Leslie offered this apology.
:38:47. > :38:49.Although I'm registered dyslexic and sought to put in place additional
:38:50. > :38:52.administrative support as a result, I take complete responsibilhty for
:38:53. > :38:56.this. I'm unspeakably sorry that despite all the efforts I m`de as a
:38:57. > :39:03.new MP to get things right, I have nevertheless made this very serious
:39:04. > :39:06.error. And I want to reiter`te my heartfelt apologies to the House and
:39:07. > :39:10.have sought the earliest possible opportunity to do so.
:39:11. > :39:13.She now faces an investigathon by the Standards Commissioner which
:39:14. > :39:19.could last months. She's also called on Parliament to offer new LPs more
:39:20. > :39:23.support when they take office. When you first come into Parliament
:39:24. > :39:26.as a new MP, you don't have an office, you often struggle to find a
:39:27. > :39:30.secretary, you have to find somewhere to live, you have to find
:39:31. > :39:33.a constituency office, therd is a lot going on. I had a brand`new
:39:34. > :39:37.secretary who had never dond this before either. I was new, she was
:39:38. > :39:40.new. It would be useful at that point have someone who is
:39:41. > :39:44.experienced, perhaps a civil servant, just in that first month to
:39:45. > :39:47.take MPs through and just m`ke sure that right at the outset whdn
:39:48. > :39:50.everybody is new that things are done as they need to be dond and
:39:51. > :39:54.guide people through. Tessa Munt, you were a new LP in
:39:55. > :39:56.2010. Are things really that complicated?
:39:57. > :40:02.I think they are unnecessarhly bureaucratic. I think all of us know
:40:03. > :40:09.that we have to declare all of our donations and this sort of thing.
:40:10. > :40:14.This is what this relates to. You declare donations to the Eldctoral
:40:15. > :40:20.Commission. Then you have to declare them all over again. She is claiming
:40:21. > :40:23.that new MPs can't cope with this. I have said this is a completdly
:40:24. > :40:26.different thing from the Maria Miller thing, because Charlotte had
:40:27. > :40:30.declared what she had received, it's just that she did not know, and it
:40:31. > :40:33.could happen to any of us... It's all about trust, though, isn't
:40:34. > :40:36.it? Yes, but declaring it twice is a bit
:40:37. > :40:39.daft. You're good mates, aren't you? How
:40:40. > :40:43.will she be feeling? She will be feeling horrendous.
:40:44. > :40:46.Because this will feel in the current somewhat febrile clhmate as
:40:47. > :40:50.though she has done something dishonest, she has not. She has made
:40:51. > :40:54.an administrative slip, I wouldn't be quite so generous if there was
:40:55. > :40:57.anything wrong, but she has declared to one body without realising that
:40:58. > :41:02.you have to declare to the other body. Why we don't just declare to
:41:03. > :41:05.one body and everybody else taps into that, I don't know.
:41:06. > :41:09.Molly, are you so sympathethc? I think even if we accept this might
:41:10. > :41:12.be an innocent mistake by Charlotte Leslie, when we allow rich people
:41:13. > :41:16.and big companies to fund politics there is always a suspicion it is in
:41:17. > :41:19.exchange for favours and lobbying interests, and the obvious way to do
:41:20. > :41:22.that is to tax rich people `nd companies properly and then fund
:41:23. > :41:27.political parties through a public funding system like they do in
:41:28. > :41:29.Germany. It seems to be the rational way to proceed.
:41:30. > :41:35.So taxpayers should pay for your campaign?
:41:36. > :41:37.Not taxpayers, no. These rich companies who at the moment are
:41:38. > :41:42.choosing which parties to ftnd. They should be forced to fund you?
:41:43. > :41:45.To fund a democratic system. If we believe in the democratic sxstem,
:41:46. > :41:49.then I think that should be publicly funded, and I think companids and
:41:50. > :41:51.rich people should pay enough tax to enable that to take place.
:41:52. > :41:54.That would mean taxpayers. That does mean taxpayers because
:41:55. > :41:57.effectively they put their prices up. Are you suggesting that
:41:58. > :42:00.companies should fund the BNP? I think parties should be ftnded
:42:01. > :42:02.relative to how much support they have. That's the system thex have in
:42:03. > :42:06.Germany. Then you never allow parties to
:42:07. > :42:09.grow, that's the trouble. That is exactly how parties do grow. For
:42:10. > :42:13.example, the German Greens were publicly funded and they were able
:42:14. > :42:15.to grow as a consequence, whereas we are struggling all the time.
:42:16. > :42:19.The Liberal Democrats, we h`ve always existed on a relativdly small
:42:20. > :42:24.night of money, and over a period of 30 years we have gone from... They
:42:25. > :42:27.used to say that all of us could get into one taxi to a point whdre. .
:42:28. > :42:30.But all parties have got into trouble over funding, haven't they?
:42:31. > :42:34.You have to take funding from big corporations to enable that, and
:42:35. > :42:38.that is the problem, I think. And I think it would be much bettdr to
:42:39. > :42:42.have... If we want to have ` democracy, we have to pay for it.
:42:43. > :42:45.And you could stomach it evdn if it was funding a party on the far left
:42:46. > :42:48.or the fascist right? Well, we might question UKIP. I find
:42:49. > :42:52.UKIP completely unpalatable, but if people want to vote for thel, that
:42:53. > :42:53.is what democracy is about. Thank you.
:42:54. > :42:57.Remember David Cameron's plddged to be the greenest government dver
:42:58. > :42:59.Four years on his government's track record is under attack from those on
:43:00. > :43:03.the other side. It was a PR coup. Eight years ago
:43:04. > :43:07.the Conservative party's new leader used huskies to boost his claim that
:43:08. > :43:15.we should vote Lou to go grden. `` we should vote loser. `` vote blue.
:43:16. > :43:17.That was before he joined forces with environmentally minded Liberal
:43:18. > :43:21.Democrats in government. Clhmate change is in my view, a revhew, the
:43:22. > :43:25.greatest challenge of our thme. We in both of our parties made a
:43:26. > :43:29.commitment to go further and faster than ever before. I want us to be
:43:30. > :43:33.the greenest government ever. A very simple ambition, and one th`t I am
:43:34. > :43:37.absolutely committed to achheving. The coalition, though, have changed.
:43:38. > :43:40.Some more than others. In opposition, George Osborne joined in
:43:41. > :43:43.with the jolly green stuff, like promoting low`energy light bulbs.
:43:44. > :43:48.But as Chancellor, he has t`ken strikingly different tone.
:43:49. > :43:51.We are not go to save the planet are putting our country out of business.
:43:52. > :43:54.So let's at the very least resolve that we will cut our carbon
:43:55. > :43:58.emissions no slower but also no faster than our fellow countries in
:43:59. > :44:02.Europe. That is what I have insisted on in the recent carbon budget.
:44:03. > :44:10.What of the government's tr`ck record? Green measures incltded
:44:11. > :44:12.ruling out new runways at Hdathrow and elsewhere, raising greenhouse
:44:13. > :44:17.gas reduction targets and introducing rising taxes on big
:44:18. > :44:20.carbon emitters. But against that, critics point to a rise in carbon
:44:21. > :44:25.emissions in 2012, and thosd same taxes on big carbon emitters have
:44:26. > :44:31.been frozen. Visiting a tid`l energy firm in Bristol on Thursday, the
:44:32. > :44:34.energy secretary was bullish. We've actually done amazing things
:44:35. > :44:37.on the green agenda. Look at renewable electricity, we h`ve
:44:38. > :44:40.doubled the amount of power going to people's homes from renewable
:44:41. > :44:44.sources, and we are set to hncrease that, we are set to beat our own
:44:45. > :44:54.targets. Internationally we have been leading the way in the way the
:44:55. > :44:58.world tackles climate changd. Being green means different things
:44:59. > :45:00.to different people. The government, including the Liberal Democrats
:45:01. > :45:03.believe that kicking off a new generation of nuclear power stations
:45:04. > :45:14.is crucial to cutting carbon emissions. The Greens emphatically
:45:15. > :45:17.disagree. They protested at the Somerset plant on Thursday.
:45:18. > :45:21.The hypocrisy at the heart of this government's energy policy hs
:45:22. > :45:24.immense. Leading the charge, the MP Caroline
:45:25. > :45:31.Lucas, recently called to opposition over fracking. `` recently hn
:45:32. > :45:34.court. If you look at the latest btdget,
:45:35. > :45:37.more subsidies to things like fracking, oil, the Chancellor
:45:38. > :45:41.himself said we will get evdry drop of oil out of the North Sea, he said
:45:42. > :45:45.proudly during his budget statement. I don't think anybody could be in
:45:46. > :45:48.any doubt at all that this government would not now grden if it
:45:49. > :45:57.saw it in the face. Next month the diggers are going to
:45:58. > :46:00.prepare for the new reactors. These fields, a bit like government
:46:01. > :46:03.policy, soon won't appear so green. Merlin Hyman keeps close tabs on the
:46:04. > :46:09.government's green credenti`ls. He's the chief executive of Regen
:46:10. > :46:16.SouthWest. It helps promote renewable energy projects. Hs this
:46:17. > :46:21.the greenest government ever? It's a pretty mixed record. If you
:46:22. > :46:24.look at renewable energy, some of the policy framework and wh`t has
:46:25. > :46:29.been achieved is actually pretty good. But a lot of the mess`ge has
:46:30. > :46:33.been pretty confused, and coming from the Treasury or the pl`nning
:46:34. > :46:38.department, you have heard some pretty mixed messages. For companies
:46:39. > :46:42.who are thinking of investing millions or billions of pounds into
:46:43. > :46:49.major project or a range of projects, that kind of sign`lling is
:46:50. > :46:52.not helpful. I think we havd missed out a little on the opportunity to
:46:53. > :46:55.pioneer a new renewable energy sector and create jobs and
:46:56. > :46:59.opportunities because of th`t confuse messaging that sometimes
:47:00. > :47:02.comes out. Is there an appetite among the
:47:03. > :47:06.general public to pay for rdnewable energy? To pay the excess that you
:47:07. > :47:12.have to? At the moment we pay about ?50 on
:47:13. > :47:18.our energy bills to incentivise renewable energy, and I think most
:47:19. > :47:22.people, and I do spend a lot of time going out and talking to colmunities
:47:23. > :47:27.I think most people say the fact that in an uncertain world, when we
:47:28. > :47:32.say things like the Ukraine crisis and Vladimir Putin threatenhng to
:47:33. > :47:36.turn off the gas, when we h`ve some natural and clean resources, and we
:47:37. > :47:40.can generate our own energy locally, that is pretty much common
:47:41. > :47:44.sense. What we see is the price of that coming down pretty raphdly In
:47:45. > :47:47.the Telegraph just today we saw article suggesting that sol`r power
:47:48. > :47:55.would soon be cheaper than fossil fuel sources.
:47:56. > :48:00.But talk to you, Tessa Mont. Lib Dem in charge of liberal policy, how are
:48:01. > :48:07.you greener than Molly from the Green party?
:48:08. > :48:10.We have taken the power we have been given as Secretary of State running
:48:11. > :48:13.that department and we have brought in some green policies. If xou
:48:14. > :48:19.compare it to governance from the past, I don't think you can deny...
:48:20. > :48:27.Fracking? Fracking is Matt.
:48:28. > :48:33.But you are part of the govdrnment! Going hell`bent for fracking?
:48:34. > :48:41.Norway! Molly, are you greener?
:48:42. > :48:44.If they think this government is not living up to expectations, the
:48:45. > :48:48.Liberal Democrats should le`ve the coalition.
:48:49. > :48:52.We have got the green deal, we could do it better.
:48:53. > :48:59.The green deal has been a dhsaster. That happened 30 schemes funded and
:49:00. > :49:02.they were looking for 10,000. You are against nuclear, yot are
:49:03. > :49:08.against fracking, you are against call, you are against a barrage
:49:09. > :49:14.What are you for? The main thing we need to do is
:49:15. > :49:19.reduce our energy demand. In terms of the energy we need to
:49:20. > :49:22.generate... Does that mean not using my washing
:49:23. > :49:27.machine or not driving a car? Does that mean?
:49:28. > :49:31.Increasing the efficiency of all products people use, that is
:49:32. > :49:35.important, but also changing our communities so that people have to
:49:36. > :49:40.travel less. Flying abroad less for business trips, that is part of
:49:41. > :49:44.its. But we also want to sed more renewables onshore and offshore And
:49:45. > :49:49.as Merlin Hyman already pointed out, if you support nuclear and support
:49:50. > :49:57.fracking, you are taking funding from renewable funding.
:49:58. > :49:59.We see conversations coming up to manifestoes and elections, there is
:50:00. > :50:02.a risk of making a terrible strategic mistake. The rest of the
:50:03. > :50:07.world is going rapidly towards renewable energy. 70% of new
:50:08. > :50:11.electricity capacity in Europe last year was renewable. China h`s
:50:12. > :50:15.massive investment in renew`ble energy, and we have a huge
:50:16. > :50:19.opportunity. We have great resources, opportunities,
:50:20. > :50:23.companies. But you always need the back`up for
:50:24. > :50:27.when the sun does not shine and the wind does not low.
:50:28. > :50:31.The idea is to have the European interconnected system. Somewhere in
:50:32. > :50:34.Europe they are generating electricity, no need to better
:50:35. > :50:40.interconnectivity to deal whth that.
:50:41. > :50:43.Germany have gone to renewables their emissions have gone up as they
:50:44. > :50:47.have had to use coal to fill the gaps.
:50:48. > :50:53.That is true, but over time that'll be resolved because of the
:50:54. > :50:56.investment. Important thing to remember is that a lot of it is
:50:57. > :51:01.owned by communities, some of the people that own the wind farms are
:51:02. > :51:04.benefiting from them. That is important. As we develop
:51:05. > :51:09.renewables will need to eng`ge local people and local communities much
:51:10. > :51:14.more. That is happening. Thanks for coming in.
:51:15. > :51:19.The Liberal Democrat MP for Taunton has compared his party to a shopping
:51:20. > :51:24.trolley with a wonky wheel but always veers towards the left. Now
:51:25. > :51:32.he has written a book that `ppears to pool that trolley sharplx to the
:51:33. > :51:38.right. The Race Plan calls for the top rate of tax to be cut, he wants
:51:39. > :51:42.more free schools, and on transport feedbacks big investment in
:51:43. > :51:47.infrastructure with a huge new airport. He has accused his fellow
:51:48. > :51:54.Liberal Democrat of being too timid. I asked him if he was talking
:51:55. > :51:56.down his own party. I don't think I am being disdainful
:51:57. > :52:01.of the Liberal Democrats. I recognise that we have got some
:52:02. > :52:05.difficulties at the moment but we have made very substantial
:52:06. > :52:08.contribution to the governmdnt of this country.
:52:09. > :52:12.It doesn't sound as if they are doing anything right in your book.
:52:13. > :52:16.I am trying to make a big argument, and that is that the whole world
:52:17. > :52:22.order is changing quite dralatically with the rise of countries hn Asia,
:52:23. > :52:26.China and India and others, and the question for countries like Britain,
:52:27. > :52:31.one of the established powers, is what do we need to do in order to
:52:32. > :52:34.overhaul ourselves in order to make sure we continue to be prosperous
:52:35. > :52:40.and influential in a much more competitive world.
:52:41. > :52:46.You are calling for the top rate of tax to be reduced to 40p.
:52:47. > :52:55.I am in the same place as Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were. H think
:52:56. > :52:59.40p is a reasonable rate. I think it is easy for people to understand, it
:53:00. > :53:06.is a fair burden on people hn different incomes.
:53:07. > :53:10.The Tories don't dare do it. I can speak for the Conserv`tives,
:53:11. > :53:15.all I'm saying is what I thhnk will make Britain a competitive country.
:53:16. > :53:20.But people will say, this gty is in the wrong party.
:53:21. > :53:25.I don't see why favouring the top rate of tax the same as Tonx Blair
:53:26. > :53:30.makes me conservative. Tony Blair was a labour Prime Minister, and I
:53:31. > :53:33.am Liberal Democrat. The West Country is a Liber`l
:53:34. > :53:37.Democrat stronghold, so what are people in the West supposed to think
:53:38. > :53:40.of this? Nick Clegg is therd saying that he is the break on number ten
:53:41. > :53:46.stopping the Tories doing something that is too radical. And now you are
:53:47. > :53:51.being more radical than all of them.
:53:52. > :53:56.I want the Liberal Democrats to be the accelerator rather than the
:53:57. > :54:00.break. Do you accept they are the break at
:54:01. > :54:05.the moment? Sometimes that is the mode we going
:54:06. > :54:08.to. In politics there is a place for stopping people you disagred with
:54:09. > :54:11.from doing things they want to do, but I think generally it is a
:54:12. > :54:16.mindset I am uncomfortable with to think that the main defining role
:54:17. > :54:20.you have is not to put forw`rd your own ideas for how to make the
:54:21. > :54:24.country a better place but stop people using their ideas. I want the
:54:25. > :54:31.party to be more self`confident more outward looking, more bald. I don't
:54:32. > :54:35.see liberalism is being a ddfensive ideology about splitting thd
:54:36. > :54:40.difference between others, trying to download the ideas of other people.
:54:41. > :54:45.I think liberalism can be a radical and progressive policy.
:54:46. > :54:50.But you are fundamentally ott of step with the party.
:54:51. > :54:56.I don't accept that. Is that why you are fired?
:54:57. > :55:01.Nick Clegg made the decision, you will have to ask him.
:55:02. > :55:06.Is it a bid for the leadership? There is no vacancy for the
:55:07. > :55:11.leadership. I won't argue, why, if the Liberal Democrats did not exist,
:55:12. > :55:16.why would it be necessary to invent us? And I don't think it is to have
:55:17. > :55:20.a party that dilutes the vidws of other political parties, but I do
:55:21. > :55:24.think that having a bold, ottward looking and authentic liber`lism is
:55:25. > :55:30.part of the solution to the country's predicament and l`wmakers
:55:31. > :55:35.more prosperous in the future. Tessa you have brought his book You
:55:36. > :55:42.have been queuing in the shops for that. Is your poster boy, or is the
:55:43. > :55:47.outsider? I think some of the points he makes
:55:48. > :55:49.are probably good in that hd would probably have to invent the Liberal
:55:50. > :55:54.Democrats if we were not here already. I would say that I possibly
:55:55. > :55:59.disagree with some of the things he is saying. I have not read the book,
:56:00. > :56:05.but I feel we have offered our own acceleration.
:56:06. > :56:08.He says that Nick Clegg alw`ys says, I have stop them doing that and I
:56:09. > :56:12.would stop maybe doing something else, and that is not very
:56:13. > :56:15.inspiring. Absolutely, but look at what we have
:56:16. > :56:21.done in government. Jeremy hs talking about the future, btt look
:56:22. > :56:25.at what we have done. We have thousands of people in Somerset
:56:26. > :56:30.having had a tax cut, millions of pounds going into schools.
:56:31. > :56:34.Are you a left of centre party? I don't think we are, we ard
:56:35. > :56:39.liberal. Would you support the top r`te of
:56:40. > :56:42.tax as 40p? After we sort out the shambles of
:56:43. > :56:47.National Insurance attributhon is that people start paying at ?8, 00.
:56:48. > :56:51.We need to make sure that N`tional Insurance conurbations don't get
:56:52. > :56:56.charged... Molly, part of his thesis is how do
:56:57. > :57:02.you prepare for the emerging world which is very competitive. Lakes the
:57:03. > :57:06.point that while we have bedn faffing around about a new runway at
:57:07. > :57:11.Heathrow, the Chinese have built easy to airports. What is the green
:57:12. > :57:14.response to that? The green response is to protect us
:57:15. > :57:19.where we are and protect people at home and not focus so much on being
:57:20. > :57:22.globally competitive and focusing on growth.
:57:23. > :57:25.What would that do to stand`rd of living?
:57:26. > :57:40.It would improve it because we would create more luckily `` more locally
:57:41. > :57:44.based jobs. His idea is to get government OAS are competing with
:57:45. > :57:47.people with Laura working conditions and that's not something I would be
:57:48. > :57:51.part of. Without the command economy?
:57:52. > :57:56.It would be a command econoly. Liberalism was always about small
:57:57. > :58:00.government, and the reason ht failed because people suffered at work
:58:01. > :58:03.Rampant capitalism meant th`t they had very poor conditions and also
:58:04. > :58:09.destroyed the environment. We have seen other political movements come
:58:10. > :58:12.along to respond to that. Let's take a look back at the
:58:13. > :58:21.political week as we set thd stopwatch 46 the second. `` 62
:58:22. > :58:25.seconds. The Mirror Swindon apologisdd over
:58:26. > :58:31.remarks about disabilities. An independent panel found him guilty
:58:32. > :58:35.of breaching a code of condtct. A former Mayor of Cheltenham has also
:58:36. > :58:40.had to say sorry. She says she was not thinking when she made ` remark
:58:41. > :58:45.about rape during a debate on housing. Motorists face a hhgh end
:58:46. > :58:50.tools over the Clifton Suspdnsion Bridge. The Transport Secretary
:58:51. > :58:55.approved arise from 50p to ?1 after an enquiry. Money will be spent on
:58:56. > :58:59.repairs and maintenance. Grden belt campaigners in Gloucestershhre lost
:59:00. > :59:06.out in their battle on houshng. Councillors have improved the plan
:59:07. > :59:08.which will see 40,000 homes built in Gloucestershire and Tewkesbtry. And
:59:09. > :59:15.the West has its first schools Commissioner. Former music teacher
:59:16. > :59:18.said David Carter takes up the post and will decide where new academies
:59:19. > :59:24.are built on behalf of the government.
:59:25. > :59:33.Molly, 30,000 new houses in Gloucestershire. You must approve.
:59:34. > :59:35.We think local communities should maintain the power to decidd where
:59:36. > :59:40.houses are built, and that has been completely centralised and Dric
:59:41. > :59:43.Pickles is overturning our decisions locally, so we have lost control of
:59:44. > :59:47.planning. How many committees would s`y,
:59:48. > :59:50.building next to me? It is not in favour of the
:59:51. > :59:54.committees, it is in favour of their builders and that is what is ruining
:59:55. > :59:59.planning. People still do not have enough
:00:00. > :00:04.places to live. Thousands of people on waithng
:00:05. > :00:08.lists, we have to make sure houses are affordable and built in a really
:00:09. > :00:15.sound environmental way so that people have good standards `nd have
:00:16. > :00:20.space to live. If I had my way, what I would do is let every comlunity, I
:00:21. > :00:23.would give them the right to choose where it goes, but the
:00:24. > :00:30.responsibility of making sure they provide for it.
:00:31. > :00:36.And that's just about all for us. Are thanks to Molly Scott C`to and
:00:37. > :00:39.Tessa Mont. We are back in Lay to follow all the twists and ttrns of
:00:40. > :00:49.particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:50. > :00:51.The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave
:00:52. > :01:02.Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in
:01:03. > :01:06.the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have
:01:07. > :01:11.just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the
:01:12. > :01:14.argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of
:01:15. > :01:19.people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about
:01:20. > :01:22.things that most people do not know much about. They know very little
:01:23. > :01:30.about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to
:01:31. > :01:36.do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of
:01:37. > :01:40.them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out
:01:41. > :01:48.and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,
:01:49. > :01:52.the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty
:01:53. > :01:56.much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they
:01:57. > :02:01.feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd
:02:02. > :02:07.agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try
:02:08. > :02:11.to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out
:02:12. > :02:16.there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very
:02:17. > :02:19.exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions
:02:20. > :02:26.for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not
:02:27. > :02:30.know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is
:02:31. > :02:35.an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for
:02:36. > :02:37.many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took
:02:38. > :02:44.off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you
:02:45. > :02:47.wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual
:02:48. > :02:52.referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free
:02:53. > :02:55.movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did
:02:56. > :03:02.learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the
:03:03. > :03:09.outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate
:03:10. > :03:13.is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the
:03:14. > :03:18.other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn
:03:19. > :03:22.did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40
:03:23. > :03:25.came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would
:03:26. > :03:29.expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to
:03:30. > :03:34.agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think
:03:35. > :03:37.the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised
:03:38. > :03:41.debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors
:03:42. > :03:45.believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not
:03:46. > :03:51.actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all
:03:52. > :03:56.right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the
:03:57. > :04:02.battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.
:04:03. > :04:05.Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are
:04:06. > :04:11.closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not
:04:12. > :04:16.come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this
:04:17. > :04:21.stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side
:04:22. > :04:27.and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your
:04:28. > :04:33.houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into
:04:34. > :04:38.the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be
:04:39. > :04:43.better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,
:04:44. > :04:48.but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences I
:04:49. > :04:51.think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster
:04:52. > :04:56.that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come
:04:57. > :05:00.first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr
:05:01. > :05:03.village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that
:05:04. > :05:09.despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the
:05:10. > :05:16.overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget
:05:17. > :05:21.blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership
:05:22. > :05:24.is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in
:05:25. > :05:30.the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron
:05:31. > :05:35.comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it
:05:36. > :05:40.headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said
:05:41. > :05:46.that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see
:05:47. > :05:52.them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the
:05:53. > :05:56.sun will be about David Cameron s personal leadership and his grip on
:05:57. > :05:59.the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes
:06:00. > :06:06.around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The
:06:07. > :06:11.Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in
:06:12. > :06:18.the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was
:06:19. > :06:24.the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was
:06:25. > :06:30.because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when
:06:31. > :06:36.he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often
:06:37. > :06:41.that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.
:06:42. > :06:46.It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to
:06:47. > :06:50.be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is
:06:51. > :06:54.fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to
:06:55. > :06:57.do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have
:06:58. > :07:03.to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to
:07:04. > :07:08.where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the
:07:09. > :07:13.Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to
:07:14. > :07:19.happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg
:07:20. > :07:23.leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this
:07:24. > :07:27.Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick
:07:28. > :07:29.Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems
:07:30. > :07:34.tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the
:07:35. > :07:37.only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put
:07:38. > :07:42.it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a
:07:43. > :07:44.desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a
:07:45. > :07:49.candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto
:07:50. > :07:55.power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,
:07:56. > :08:01.and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is
:08:02. > :08:04.clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further
:08:05. > :08:10.away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But
:08:11. > :08:14.he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal
:08:15. > :08:20.attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for
:08:21. > :08:26.43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been
:08:27. > :08:31.bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots
:08:32. > :08:36.activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are
:08:37. > :08:38.despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists who
:08:39. > :08:43.they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that
:08:44. > :08:47.you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a
:08:48. > :08:53.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:54. > :08:59.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:00. > :09:03.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:04. > :09:06.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:07. > :09:11.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:12. > :09:18.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:19. > :09:21.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:22. > :09:25.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:26. > :09:31.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:32. > :09:33.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:34. > :09:37.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:38. > :09:43.is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively
:09:44. > :09:48.weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS
:09:49. > :09:52.uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a
:09:53. > :10:00.high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the
:10:01. > :10:05.deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to
:10:06. > :10:09.begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.
:10:10. > :10:13.And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that
:10:14. > :10:16.if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,
:10:17. > :10:19.they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly
:10:20. > :10:22.with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is
:10:23. > :10:25.any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a
:10:26. > :10:32.high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,
:10:33. > :10:36.that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very
:10:37. > :10:41.bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can
:10:42. > :10:45.see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they
:10:46. > :10:54.are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on
:10:55. > :10:56.bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his
:10:57. > :11:00.accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot
:11:01. > :11:05.help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in
:11:06. > :11:10.high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy
:11:11. > :11:13.Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you
:11:14. > :11:18.are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.
:11:19. > :11:21.All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed
:11:22. > :11:24.to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence
:11:25. > :11:28.matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this
:11:29. > :11:31.list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five
:11:32. > :11:35.or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the
:11:36. > :11:38.police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those
:11:39. > :11:42.because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,
:11:43. > :11:47.being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on
:11:48. > :11:52.Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom
:11:53. > :11:57.and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do
:11:58. > :12:03.not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not
:12:04. > :12:06.that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and
:12:07. > :12:12.Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member
:12:13. > :12:18.of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is
:12:19. > :12:22.that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write
:12:23. > :12:27.themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and
:12:28. > :12:32.unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom
:12:33. > :12:35.and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave
:12:36. > :12:39.after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I
:12:40. > :12:44.think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you
:12:45. > :12:50.get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on
:12:51. > :12:57.them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers
:12:58. > :14:00.of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC
:14:01. > :14:03.In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of
:14:04. > :14:11.At times he's interesting, at times he's very funny,
:14:12. > :14:19.My life is a very happy life and I'm a very happy person.
:14:20. > :14:21.Will you feel nervous when this is unveiled?
:14:22. > :14:25.I suppose being the centre of attention but for ever.